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sonz
10-11-2006, 12:14 PM
An estimated 655,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion, according to a survey by a US university.

The research compares mortality rates before and after the invasion from 47 randomly chosen areas in Iraq.

The figure is considerably higher than estimates by official sources or the number of deaths reported in the media.

Critics have dismissed the findings because they are based on a statistical prediction rather than body counts.

Dr Gilbert Burnham of the John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Heath, based in Baltimore, says this method is more reliable, given the dangers of conducting thorough research in strife-torn Iraq.

The estimated death toll is equal to about 2.5% of Iraq's population, and averages out at more than 500 additional deaths a day since the start of the invasion.

Sharp rise

Researchers spoke to nearly 1,850 families, comprising more than 12,800 people in dozens of 40-household clusters around the country.

Of the 629 deaths they recorded among these families, 13% took place in the 14 months before the invasion and 87% in the 40 months afterwards.

Such a trend repeated nationwide would indicate a rise in annual death rates from 5.5 per 1,000 to 13.3 per 1,000.

The researchers say that in nearly 80% of the individual cases, family members produced death certificates to support their answers.

Reliable data is very hard to obtain in Iraq, where anti-US insurgents and sectarian death squads pose a grave danger to civilian researchers.

The survey updates earlier research using the same "cluster" technique which indicated that 100,000 Iraqis had died between the invasion and April 2004 - a figure that was also dismissed by many supporters of the US-led coalition.

'Survivor bias'

While critics point to the discrepancy between this and other independent surveys (such as Iraq Body Count's figure of 44-49,000 civilian deaths, based on media reports), the Bloomberg School team says its method may actually underestimate the true figure.

"Families, especially in households with combatants killed, could have hidden deaths. Under-reporting of infant deaths is a widespread concern in surveys of this type," the authors say.

"Entire households could have been killed, leading to survivor bias."

The survey suggests that most of the extra deaths - 601,000 - would have been the result of violence, mostly gunfire, and suggests that 31% could be attributable to action by US-led coalition forces.

The survey is to be published in a UK medical journal, the Lancet, on Thursday.

In an accompanying comment, the Lancet's Richard Horton acknowledges that the 2004 survey provoked controversy, but emphasises that the 2006 follow-up has been recommended by "four expert peers... with relatively minor revisions".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm
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sonz
10-11-2006, 12:15 PM
its true what they say.

in the eyes of the us government, the death of a muslim is less than the death of a nonmuslim
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sonz
10-11-2006, 05:58 PM
why ru the probush supporters silent about this???
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Keltoi
10-11-2006, 06:01 PM
Statistical prediction isn't a reliable gauge for the actual number of Iraqis who have died "because" of the U.S. led invasion. That statement in itself is misleading, since a huge number of Iraqis are killed by other Iraqis. Criminals have been killing, raping, and robbing since the fall of Baghdad. Yes, this occurred because Saddam wasn't in control, and that is because of the U.S. led invasion. However, I've seen some "news" sources try to spin this report as an indication of how many people the U.S. has killed in Iraq, which is disengenious to say the least.
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sonz
10-11-2006, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Statistical prediction isn't a reliable gauge for the actual number of Iraqis who have died "because" of the U.S. led invasion. That statement in itself is misleading, since a huge number of Iraqis are killed by other Iraqis. Criminals have been killing, raping, and robbing since the fall of Baghdad. Yes, this occurred because Saddam wasn't in control, and that is because of the U.S. led invasion. However, I've seen some "news" sources try to spin this report as an indication of how many people the U.S. has killed in Iraq, which is disengenious to say the least.
tell me. isnt insurgency the cause of the us led invasion? if there was no invasion there would be no insurgency.

the number is still too big and us has a major part. probush supporters cry when a few nonmuslims die but are silent when huge numbers of muslims are killed.

if 10,000 americans died, it would be called the american genocide but no mention of any iraqi genocide.
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Keltoi
10-11-2006, 06:16 PM
Iraqi genocide? Who would be responsible for this "genocide"? That would be the Iraqis themselves. Also, it is quite pointless to wrap this around some "pro-Bush" or "anti-Bush" rhetoric. It is also pointless to point out that Americans care more about American lives. That is true, and in a broad sense that is understandable. Yet don't be hypocritical, because it is fairly obvious that Muslims lives are more important to you than non-Muslim lives. That is a tribal mentality that will probably always exist.
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wilberhum
10-11-2006, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sonz
its true what they say.

in the eyes of the us government, the death of a muslim is less than the death of a nonmuslim
Isn't it true that Muslems think Muslim's lives are more important than non-Mulsim lives?
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therebbe
10-11-2006, 07:26 PM
the death of a muslim is less than the death of a nonmuslim
Most of the deaths have been caused by Muslims, have they not?
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sonz
10-11-2006, 07:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Iraqi genocide? Who would be responsible for this "genocide"? That would be the Iraqis themselves. Also, it is quite pointless to wrap this around some "pro-Bush" or "anti-Bush" rhetoric. It is also pointless to point out that Americans care more about American lives. That is true, and in a broad sense that is understandable. Yet don't be hypocritical, because it is fairly obvious that Muslims lives are more important to you than non-Muslim lives. That is a tribal mentality that will probably always exist.
keltoi this is not about whether some1s live is more important than other. what i said is how long does it take for the world to condemn this and say its genocide and not "collateral damage" is massacre.

One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic.
joseph stalin
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Keltoi
10-11-2006, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sonz
keltoi this is not about whether some1s live is more important than other. what i said is how long does it take for the world to condemn this and say its genocide and not "collateral damage" is massacre.

One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic.
joseph stalin
You are doing exactly what I mentioned in my first post, which is thinking this statistical estimate is about all the civilians killed in the Iraq War, which is false. This is an estimate of all Iraqi deaths since the invasion began, from multiple causes. If there is any genocide in Iraq, it is being done by the Iraqis themselves.
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sonz
10-11-2006, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
Most of the deaths have been caused by Muslims, have they not?
no

this was 2 years ago

However, after the invasion, violence was recorded as the primary cause of death and was mainly attributed to coalition forces - with about 95% of those deaths caused by bombs or fire from helicopter gunships.

Violent deaths - defined as those brought about by the intentional act of others - were reported in 15 of the 33 clusters examined.

Twelve of the 73 violent deaths reported were not attributed to coalition forces. The researchers said 28 children from the survey households were said to have been killed by coalition forces. Infant mortality rose from 29 deaths per 1,000 live births before the war to 57 deaths per 1,000 afterward.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...338362,00.html


its disgustin that some of u r arguin who has killed the most.

lets say the US has killed 1% of this figure, that is 6550!!!!

2x the figure of those who died in 9/11
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therebbe
10-11-2006, 07:49 PM
its disgustin that some of u r arguin who has killed the most.
Your arguing with us, so by your own logic your acting disgusting to, are you not? Are you not telling me off about who killed the most, and then after telling me that I am disgusting because I argue about who killed the most.

I smell a contradiction.
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Hawa
10-11-2006, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
You are doing exactly what I mentioned in my first post, which is thinking this statistical estimate is about all the civilians killed in the Iraq War, which is false. This is an estimate of all Iraqi deaths since the invasion began, from multiple causes. If there is any genocide in Iraq, it is being done by the Iraqis themselves.

this is the latest B.S (pardon my french) everyone's been buying into, "Iraqi's kill each other therefore we can all sleep at night knowing we havent really done anything wrong"

ofcourse the US army, despite dropping bombs on all the major Iraqi cities have killed roughly 20 civillians right? and the insurgents (who I believe are more interested in killing americans rather than each other) have killed everyone else with their AK-47's because this advances their cause.
it's one thing to try and appear patriotic it's another to try and justify mass murder.

and muslims do not think non-muslim lives to be less important, that is what zionists and most Americans believe.
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wilberhum
10-11-2006, 10:31 PM
muslims do not think non-muslim lives to be less important
When was the last time anyone said anything about the atrocities committed against non-Muslims?
When I see remarks like, “They are even killing Muslims”, it brings me to one and only one conclusion.
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Zulkiflim
10-11-2006, 11:30 PM
Salaam,

this war which should never have been has cost 650 000 muslim lives.

Statistical or not,the number is there..

Even one life lost is saddening,not to say Bush'es estimation of 30 000 men women and children..

Very sad for the lives lost,and the Iraqis who live now in civil war under the US supervision to create a situation of proxy war.

Brother against brother
Sister against siste
father against son

Proxy war are the tools of the US and too many times the muslim world fall prey to this due to moderate muslims.

Abbas in Palestine
Saddam in Iraq
Shah in Iran
Somalian goverment in Somalia
And so many more.

These proxy moderate muslim are given power to oppress and torture..All for money.

It is time to bring the loss to the enemy side.
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Keltoi
10-11-2006, 11:47 PM
If you haven't figured out that the vast majority of violent deaths in Iraq in the past 2 years have been committed by Sunni and Shia death squads then nothing can bring you out of the state of denial. I know many Iraqi civilians died in the initial stages of the Iraq War due to dropped ordinance and the fog of war, and every single one of those innocent deaths is a tragedy. However, holding on to this myth that the insurgents in Iraq are interested in "freedom fighting" is not backed up by reality. American forces aren't that hard to find in Baghdad for anyone looking for them. Why blow up markets, mosques, funerals, and kidnap, torture, and kill hundreds of civilians if your intent is to fight a glorious war against an invading force? Don't justify it with conspiracy theories and pass the blame. The violence in Iraq isn't Americans fighting Iraqis or outsiders, it is Iraqis and outsiders killing each other.
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AvarAllahNoor
10-12-2006, 09:03 AM
Let them go and liberate the koreans now....
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TheRightPathI
10-14-2006, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Let them go and liberate the koreans now....
more like kill thousands and call it "liberation".
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Keltoi
10-14-2006, 05:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRightPathI
more like kill thousands and call it "liberation".
Liberation is a state of mind. The U.S., primarily the Bush administration, mistakenly believed that the Iraqi people would celebrate the end of their dictator and celebrate by forming their own democratic style government. As we all know, this isn't what happened. However, there is still hope for Iraq if they can pull themselves together and look toward the future.
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TheRightPathI
10-14-2006, 05:50 PM
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/oc...iraq-o13.shtml Source


Why is the American press silent on the report of 655,000 Iraqi deaths?
By Joe Kay and Barry Grey
13 October 2006
Use this version to print | Send this link by email | Email the author

The US media is virtually silent on a new scientific study that estimates the Iraqi death toll from the US war at 655,000. The study, conducted by Johns Hopkins University’s Bloomberg School of Public Health and funded by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, was posted Wednesday on the web site of the British medical journal, the Lancet.

The study is the only systematic estimate of the number of Iraqi civilians and military personnel to have died as a result of the US invasion and occupation to be brought to the attention of the American and international public.

Unlike previous estimates, which were based on reviews of media reports or tallies made by the US-backed Iraqi government, the Johns Hopkins study was carried out by Iraqi physicians who interviewed—often at great personal risk—nearly 2,000 families spread across the country, utilizing standard and widely used statistical methods to arrive at an objective estimate of the death toll from the war and occupation. The vast majority of the reported deaths were substantiated by death certificates.

The study concluded with a 95 percent degree of certainty that the number of “excess deaths” in Iraq since the invasion—the number of people who have died in excess of the number that would be expected on the basis of pre-invasion mortality rates—is between 393,000 and 943,000. The figure of 655,000 is given as the most likely number. This represents an astonishing 2.5 percent of the entire Iraqi population.

The researchers further estimated that about 600,000 of the deaths were due to violence in some form, including gunshots, air strikes and bombings. They concluded that US and allied military forces directly caused at least 31 percent—or 186,000—of the violent deaths.

Some 336,000 people, or 56 percent of those killed in violent actions since the invasion, died from gunshot wounds. The study also found that the number of violent deaths in Iraq has steadily increased every year since the invasion. In the period from June 2005 to June 2006, the researchers found a nearly four-fold increase in the mortality rate relative to pre-invasion levels.

There can be no legitimate doubts about the credibility of the study. Lancet is one of the oldest and most prestigious peer-reviewed medical publications in the world. The Johns Hopkins public health school is the largest in the world, and regularly ranks as the top public health school in the United States. The journal article was reviewed and approved for publication by four independent scientific experts in the area.

It is difficult to overestimate the significance of the report, even if one assumes its low-end estimate of 393,000 Iraqi deaths to be correct. It demonstrates that the American intervention in Iraq has produced a social and humanitarian catastrophe of historical dimensions, with vast political implications not only in the Middle East, but throughout the world and, above all, in the United States itself.

By any objective standard, the report merits front-page coverage in every major newspaper in the country and extensive discussion and reporting on television news broadcasts. Yet the response of the US press has been to virtually ignore the report and limit its coverage to news accounts on inside pages which report, uncritically, unsubstantiated statements by government and military officials dismissing the report as “not credible.”

In burying the story, the New York Times and Washington Post have played a particularly significant role. The original articles published by these newspapers on Wednesday were relegated to the inside pages: in the Times on page 8, in the Post on page 12.

The Post decided to bury the story in its back pages despite the fact that the article it published vouched for the scientific validity the Johns Hopkins study, noting that it, and an earlier report on Iraqi deaths published by the same team, “are the only ones to estimate mortality in Iraq using scientific methods.” The “cluster sampling” technique used by the scientists, the newspaper wrote, “is used to estimate mortality in famines and after natural disasters.”

Minimal coverage in the press continued on Thursday, despite the fact that the issue was raised by a reporter at a White House press conference on Wednesday. President Bush contemptuously dismissed the report, stating that it was not credible. He was not challenged and the question was not followed up by any of the other reporters at the news conference.

Bush’s remarks were followed by statements from various supporters and architects of the war similarly dismissing the Johns Hopkins study’s casualty figures. General George Casey, the commander of US forces in Iraq, admitted that he had not bothered to read the report, but nevertheless concluded that it did not have “much credibility at all.”

A spokesman for British Prime Minister Tony Blair said that the figure of 655,000 killed is “not one we believe to be anywhere near accurate.” Iraqi government officials likewise declared that the figure was “exaggerated.”

On Thursday, neither the Times nor the Post published an editorial on the Johns Hopkins report, or even a follow-up article on the report and the response of the Bush administration.

There was not one challenge in the establishment media to the official attempts to disparage the report. Instead, the minimal coverage on Thursday was largely devoted to reporting the statements by Bush, Casey, Blair and the Iraqi stooge regime. The Los Angeles Times, for example, published a story on its inside pages, “Iraq Disputes Claim of 600,000 War Dead,” reporting the statements by the Iraqi government. The newspaper added its voice to the chorus by remarking that it had conducted its own survey and reached a figure of 50,000 killed.

The attempts to discredit the report are not backed up by any factual or methodological arguments. The administration and its supporters assume, correctly, that they can simply make unsubstantiated claims and the media will not challenge them.

Lee Roberts, a co-author of the study, noted in an interview with the radio program Democracy Now! on Thursday that the cluster survey approach the researchers used “is the standard way of measuring mortality in very poor countries where the government isn’t very functional or in times of war.” He pointed out that both the United Nations and the US government have used the method in determining mortality, including after the Kosovo and Afghan wars. “Most ironically,” he said, “the US government has been spending millions of dollars per year... to train NGOs and UN workers to do cluster surveys to measure mortality in times of wars and disasters.”

With its silence, the media is once again taking its cue from the government. It does not challenge Bush’s ignorant and cold-blooded dismissal of the Johns Hopkins report, just as it did not challenge Bush’s offhand remark at a December, 2005 press conference that 30,000 Iraqis, “more or less,” had been killed since the March, 2003 US invasion—an absurdly low estimate.

The corporate-owned-and-controlled media have buried this story because they do not want the American people to know the truth of what is happening in Iraq.

They want to conceal this truth—as they have done consistently since the war began—because they are complicit in a massive war crime in Iraq, and continue to support the bloodletting by the US military.

The Johns Hopkins report, by revealing the colossal dimensions of the death and destruction wreaked by the United States in Iraq, shatters the edifice of lies that has been erected in an attempt to deceive the people and justify the war—from the phony claims of weapons of mass destruction and Iraq-Al Qaeda ties, to the current claims of a war for “freedom and democracy” and the overarching deception of the “war on terrorism.”

The report inevitably highlights the culpability of the media itself, which has combined an acceptance of unprecedented censorship by the military with self-censorship and deliberate misinformation in order to whitewash an imperialist war for oil and geo-strategic domination of the Middle East.

The scale of mass killing revealed in the Johns Hopkins study published by the Lancet stands as an indictment of the entire American ruling elite, both of its political parties—Democratic no less than Republican—and all of its official institutions, among which the media has played a particularly sordid role.

What the corporate, political and media establishment fear are the explosive social and political implications of growing popular revulsion over the crimes of US imperialism in Iraq and around the world, combined with mounting anger over relentless attacks on working people’s social conditions and democratic rights. The entire political system is being exposed and discredited before the eyes of the people. Such a process inevitably brings with it revolutionary consequences.


Source http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/oc...iraq-o13.shtml
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Keltoi
10-14-2006, 06:06 PM
Whoever wrote the article obviously doesn't understand the U.S. media. The New York Times is hardly in the business of covering for the Bush administration. The problem with this report is that it includes people who have died violently, died of flu, died of car accidents, died of stampedes at religious events, died from violent criminal activity, etc. This is the entire scope of Iraqis that have died since 2003. From the report itself, it mentions they "believe" 30% of the deaths they estimate occurred from Coalition military action.
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