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Zulkiflim
10-12-2006, 12:53 AM
Salaam,

Iraq to split into 3.

[PIE] Iraq moves toward federal system
Agence France-Presse, The Associated Press, The New York Times

Published: October 11, 2006



BAGHDAD The Shiite-dominated Parliament passed a law Wednesday allowing the formation of federal regions in Iraq, despite opposition from Sunni lawmakers and some Shiites who say it will dismember the country and fuel sectarian violence.

In Parliament, the Sunni coalition and two Shiite parties tried to prevent a vote on the federalism bill by boycotting the session Wednesday. They hoped to prevent the 275-seat body from reaching the quorum of 50 percent.

But the quorum was reached with 140 lawmakers, who voted on each of the bill's roughly 200 articles individually, passing them all unanimously.

"This is the beginning of the plan to divide Iraq," said Adnan al-Dulaimi, leader of the Sunni National Accordance Front, which boycotted the vote along with the radical Shiite cleric Moktada Sadr's party and the Shiite Fadila party. "We had hoped that the problems of sectarian violence would be resolved. We hope there won't be an increase in violence."

The bloodshed showed little sign of easing Wednesday, when at least five bombs exploded in different sections of Baghdad, killing at least six people and wounding more than a dozen, and the authorities discovered more bodies.

Also, the U.S. Army chief said that it planned to keep the current level of soldiers in Iraq through 2010, a later date than officials from the Bush administration or the Defense Department had previously mentioned. (Page 5)

The comments by the army chief of staff, General Peter Schoomaker, come as Iraq has become a central issue in the U.S. midterm elections in November. It was the latest acknowledgment by a Pentagon official that a significant withdrawal of troops from Iraq was not likely in the immediate future.

The law passed Wednesday includes a provision that regions cannot be formed for another 18 months, a concession to Sunni concerns.

The federalism law sets up a system for allowing provinces to join together into autonomous regions that would hold considerable powers of self-rule, a right given to them under the Constitution adopted last year in a national referendum.


Some Shiites want to create an autonomous zone in their heartland in the south, much like the self-ruling Kurdish region in northern Iraq.

But Sunni Arabs oppose the federalism measures, fearing that they will divide Iraq into sectarian mini-states, giving Shiite and Kurds control over oil riches in the south and north, and leaving Sunnis in an impoverished central zone without resources. Some Shiite parties, including the faction of al-Sadr, also oppose the measures for nationalistic reasons.

Critics have also have warned that moves for federalism could fuel Shiite- Sunni violence.

The head of the Shiite coalition that dominates Parliament, Abdul-Aziz al- Hakim, praised the passage of the bill and denounced Sunni opposition to federalism. Sunni Arabs largely voted against the Constitution passed in 2005 because it outlined the federal system.

The law outlines a process for forming regions, requiring any province considering joining a region to hold a referendum, if a third of the provincial legislators request it.

Meanwhile, the sectarian violence has continued to grow. Dozens of corpses have been found in the capital in the past three days, usually riddled with bullets and bearing signs of torture.

Four more were found Wednesday in the Dora neighborhood of southern Baghdad, an area that was among the earliest to experience the sectarian bloodletting that is plaguing the capital. Dora is at the center of the American military's push to quell the violence and secure the capital.

American and Iraqi soldiers moved into Dora and other parts of Baghdad in force in August, as part of a new security plan for the capital that involved neighborhood-by-neighborhood sweeps.

Elsewhere, four civilians were killed when a concealed bomb blew up in the al-Amel neighborhood of west Baghdad, according to an employee at the Yarmuk hospital. Two more people were killed in another attack, the employee said.

A roadside bomb apparently meant to strike an Iraqi police patrol exploded under a bridge in east Baghdad, wounding three policemen, and then nearby a car bomb exploded, wounding five civilians.

Coalition headquarters said Wednesday that four more U.S. soldiers had been killed in action in Iraq, bringing to 40 the number of troops who have died this month.

A series of huge explosions that rattled the capital late Tuesday were caused when a mortar shell, apparently fired by insurgents, struck an ammunition holding area at an American base in the southern part of the city, the American military said.

According to Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Withington, a spokesman for the 4th Infantry Division, the mortar shell set off a fire that then exploded tank and artillery shells and other ammunition stored at the base. No injuries were reported in the explosions.[/PIE]


And so the split has begun.Inteded from the beginning.

What is weird is that the western media like to divide Kurds and Sunnnis,when the Kurds are sunni.

A thrird divide that the western world wishes to widen more.

As i ahve always said,the US likes to use proxies to fight to fight for them.
And now the Iraqis have fallen in the same way.

And guess whose idea was it to split Iraq?

[PIE]AN independent commission set up by Congress with the approval of President George W Bush may recommend carving up Iraq into three highly autonomous regions, according to well informed sources.[/PIE]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...393750,00.html

And so the invaders,not content to invade a coutnrry and murder so many,not intend to cut a sovereign county thru their proxies.

A sad day for this to happen.

THe Ummah destroys itself by relying on othr for protectiona dn guide.
The Ummah destroy itself by seeking wealth and safety thru western avenues.

They are protectors of themsevles ony.
It is written in the Quran but they wont read it.
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Keltoi
10-12-2006, 12:34 PM
Seems to me the Ummah is destroying itself in Iraq because they can't get along with each other. In this sort of situation it makes quite a bit of sense to consider dividing Iraq among ethnic lines, at least until the violence goes down and cooler heads can fix the problem and return to national unity. As for Kurds being the same as the Sunni, I don't see how you can say this since it was Saddam's Fedayeen and the Ba'ath Party, mainly Sunnis, who have persecuted the Kurds for a long time. They may share a religious faith, but the Kurds are not the same as the Sunni in Mosul, for example.
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IceQueen~
10-12-2006, 12:56 PM
that is a sign of qiyama too- when iraq will be split into 3!!!
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IceQueen~
10-12-2006, 01:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Seems to me the Ummah is destroying itself in Iraq because they can't get along with each other. In this sort of situation it makes quite a bit of sense to consider dividing Iraq among ethnic lines, at least until the violence goes down and cooler heads can fix the problem and return to national unity. As for Kurds being the same as the Sunni, I don't see how you can say this since it was Saddam's Fedayeen and the Ba'ath Party, mainly Sunnis, who have persecuted the Kurds for a long time. They may share a religious faith, but the Kurds are not the same as the Sunni in Mosul, for example.
destroying itself? actually it all started when America interfered in the first place... they r now worse off in Iraq
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Keltoi
10-12-2006, 04:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IceQueen~
destroying itself? actually it all started when America interfered in the first place... they r now worse off in Iraq
America broke down the authoritarian order, it didn't force Iraqis to massacre each other. If the idea is to stop the insane violence in Iraq, the possibility of dividing the country along religious and ethnic lines must be considered. It was the British who forced them together in the first place, and it took a dictator to keep everyone under control. Hopefully dividing Iraq won't be necessary, but it might be if the violence continues on this scale.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 04:41 PM
:salamext:


They want to split the ummah up, so they go to the muslim nation's to cause corruption and enmity among us. This way, it lower's the threat that will face them - because the muslim's will have to worry about fighting against the others, instead of the main threat - the enemy who set foot in iraq, when they had no right to in the first place.


One of the main reason's their successful is because the majority of us have given up islaam for the dunya (world.) Once we return back to islaam whole heartedly, Allaah will remove our humiliation insha'Allaah.



Allaah Almighty know's best.
Reply

Keltoi
10-12-2006, 04:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


They want to split the ummah up, so they go to the muslim nation's to cause corruption and enmity among us. This way, it lower's the threat that will face them - because the muslim's will have to worry about fighting against the others, instead of the main threat - the enemy who set foot in iraq, when they had no right to in the first place.


One of the main reason's their successful is because the majority of us have given up islaam for the dunya (world.) Once we return back to islaam whole heartedly, Allaah will remove our humiliation insha'Allaah.




Allaah Almighty know's best.
I don't know who "they" are, but if you are referring to the U.S., what exactly do they gain by insane violence amonst Iraqis? The idea was to form an elected Iraqi government that all Iraqis can support. Do you think Iraqis blowing each other up is received well here in the U.S?, because I can tell you it is not. Perhaps instead of wondering why the "ummah" isn't fighting the United States you should worry more about why Iraqis are killing each other and how to stop it.
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- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 04:54 PM
They attack other nation's that they feel will be a threat in the future. They know that if the muslim's unite - they will be a threat. The only system that is opposing the west in the world now is islaam, so what will they try to do? Simple - eradicate it. What other option do they have?


This is easy to understand because history repeats itself. Yes we should care about the muslim's killing each other, but whose trying to sneak in to cause more corruption, while hiding under the banner of democracy? Democracy is a way of severing people's root's, when their root's are destroyed, what do they have to stay firm on?

Our root's are islaam, they want to destroy them - if they can do that, they don't have a threat anymore.


It's not just about giving the muslim nation freedom, but to eradicate islaam. But that will never happen.



The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell;- (Qur'an 8:36)



Peace.
Reply

Keltoi
10-12-2006, 04:59 PM
So everything can be simplified to the catch phrase.."they want to destroy Islam"..interesting. I'm sure the Al-Qaeda propoganda machine would be pleased with your assessment. As for Islam being the only thing "opposing" the West, if "Islam" is fighting the West, why do so many Muslims choose to live in the West? There is one aspect I agree with, which is that democracy cannot be forced on anyone. That is one of the beliefs of the now defunct "neo-con" ideology I never agreed with. Even Fukuyama has backed off that mistaken belief.
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- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 05:10 PM
Keltoi, it's not actually the 'al qa-eda' anything, because i don't even know who they are. I'm just using my common sense, and looking at history.

We know that a nation will look for it's own benefit's, the western perception is that it's a "dog eat dog world" - so this kinda stuff make's a person realise that if anyone's a threat, then you try to put yourself first.


Think about it, iraq isn't really anything to them - from their perception, they just need to think, if the muslim's are fighting, let them be. Why should they spend billion's of dollar's to protect innocent's when they can just use those billion's for their own benefit.

But the answer is, they want the oil, because they need it. They need the muslim's to disunite even though now is the critical point for the muslims because they might just unite - due to the lebanon issue etc. But because the muslim's might unite, we need to cause more disunity so this persists, and the killing continues, as long as we don't get harmed.



Allaah Almighty know's best.


Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-12-2006, 05:14 PM
We know that a nation will look for it's own benefit's,
Is that why Islam is at war with the West?
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- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 05:15 PM
Is that why Islam is at war with the West?

The muslim's fight back for their own benefit - and that's to defend their islaam. But i don't know where you get the idea that islaam is at war with the west? I thought it was the US who set foot in the muslim lands.



Allaah Almighty know's best.


Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-12-2006, 05:21 PM
I thought it was the US who set foot in the muslim lands.
Was that before or after some Muslims "set foot" on America.
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- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 05:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Was that before or after some Muslims "set foot" on America.

The first humans to set foot on the world was Adam and Hawwa, they were muslims.

Secondly, you know what i mean.



Peace. :)
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-12-2006, 05:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Is that why Islam is at war with the West?
Since when was Islam a nation? Last I looked, Islam was a religion ^o)
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Keltoi
10-12-2006, 05:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The muslim's fight back for their own benefit - and that's to defend their islaam. But i don't know where you get the idea that islaam is at war with the west? I thought it was the US who set foot in the muslim lands.



Allaah Almighty know's best.


Peace.
I think you under the assumption that the majority of Muslims who are currently involved in some form of armed conflict are fighting for "Islam", which I don't believe is the case. If one believes that one also has to believe that the entire world is out to get Islam, which isn't backed up by anything but rhetoric and conspiracy. That is like the belief of some in the Western world that 9-11 is proof that Islam is a religion of death and is an enemy of the civilized world. Grand declarations like this are dangerous, and are a way of avoiding those pesky details that complicate the world.
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wilberhum
10-12-2006, 05:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ähmed
Since when was Islam a nation? Last I looked, Islam was a religion ^o)
Islam is not just a religion. It also has a political agenda. All one has to do is look at the number of groups trying to create Islamic States.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-12-2006, 05:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Islam is not just a religion. It also has a political agenda. All one has to do is look at the number of groups trying to create Islamic States.
There is none that is in existance today.
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- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think you under the assumption that the majority of Muslims who are currently involved in some form of armed conflict are fighting for "Islam", which I don't believe is the case. If one believes that one also has to believe that the entire world is out to get Islam, which isn't backed up by anything but rhetoric and conspiracy. That is like the belief of some in the Western world that 9-11 is proof that Islam is a religion of death and is an enemy of the civilized world. Grand declarations like this are dangerous, and are a way of avoiding those pesky details that complicate the world.

Regarding your first point, i don't know if it's the majority - but yeah, obviously there are some who are fighting just for nationalism or other mean's, instead of islaam. Allaah Almighty know's best.



Your second point, i feel that the reason why the majority of the people in the west feel that way is due to the fact that the media is promoting that thought-frame. But you gota ask yourself, why is the media doing this?

Like you've probably heard the repeated argument; if a jewish man can keep a beard, it's not much of a problem - but when the muslim does it, they class him as a terrorist. And the same about nun's etc.


Obviously - we say this for a reason, we don't like throwing out controversies just for the fun of it. Their's actually a real reason we feel that way.



However, i still feel that it is an attack on islaam, and i know this because of the historical fact's. The truth will alway's be opposed, because people prefer the life of this temporary world. Man's naturally hasty, so he'll try to grasp whatever he can, even if it take's someone else's life in the process.

But the muslim's are trialled so Allaah Almighty may expiate their sins in this world, whereas the disbeliever's might have some gain of this world, but nothing good will be left for them in the hereafter.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Reply

Trumble
10-12-2006, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
They know that if the muslim's unite - they will be a threat.
Why will they be a 'threat'? If that is the case, why is the course you accuse the Americans of taking the wrong one from their perspective?


format_quote Originally Posted by IceQueen~
destroying itself? actually it all started when America interfered in the first place...
Hardly. How many Kurds and Marsh Arabs did Saddam slaughter?

Perhaps the best way for the Ummah to become stronger is actually to stand up and accept its share of responsibility once in a while? Iraqis are killing Iraqis. Blaming it on some fictional Western plot is a rather sad way of denying that responsibility.
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wilberhum
10-12-2006, 06:15 PM
i feel that the reason why the majority of the people in the west feel that way is due to the fact that the media is promoting that thought-frame.
I am continually amazed that some Muslims insist that the “Image Problem” is caused by the media and ignore the fact that terrorists are creating the news.
i still feel that it is an attack on islaam
I still feel that Islam attacks the West.
Man's naturally hasty, so he'll try to grasp whatever he can, even if it take's someone else's life in the process.
Well now we have something we can agree on. By the way Muslims also have “Man’s natural” aspects.
But the muslim's are trialled so Allaah Almighty may expiate their sins in this world,
All Muslims’? I think not! Some Muslims? I think so!
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Hanif_Revert
10-12-2006, 06:20 PM
It wouldnt suprise me if Iraq is to be split.
The age old tactic of Divide and Conquer
Have us fighting with each other for land and power for decades.
Same happened with parts of Africa, India/Pakistan etc. etc.
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- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 06:21 PM
Why will they be a 'threat'? If that is the case, why is the course you accuse the Americans of taking the wrong one from their perspective?

The same way 'communism' was a threat. Anything that oppose's their law is a 'threat' - hence they feel they have to fight it.


Hardly. How many Kurds and Marsh Arabs did Saddam slaughter?
How much muslim's has the west killed? Within 5yrs? [Since 9/11?]



Perhaps the best way for the Ummah to become stronger is actually to stand up and accept its share of responsibility once in a while? Iraqis are killing Iraqis. Blaming it on some fictional Western plot is a rather sad way of denying that responsibility.

The best way for the ummah to become stronger is by actually having an islamic state, which the majority desire. This is what the west hates, due to the fact that it will be another superpower, because the population of the muslim's is over 1billion. However, if the muslim's strive for this - their 'extremists.'



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 06:29 PM
Hi wilberhum.


I am continually amazed that some Muslims insist that the “Image Problem” is caused by the media and ignore the fact that terrorists are creating the news.

Maybe this wouldn't happen if the muslim's from them countries weren't up for revenge?


I still feel that Islam attacks the West.

Due to the fact that they set foot in muslim land's, with a bad intention. I feel it's kinda like a repetitive cycle.



Well now we have something we can agree on. By the way Muslims also have “Man’s natural” aspects.

I agree, that's a good point. But we believe in paradise, so a true believer's desire isn't to grasp everything of this world. It's to earn Allaah's Mercy to enter paradise in the hereafter. Whereas the disbeliever only ever think's of this world, so the desire may be much stronger.



All Muslims’? I think not! Some Muslims? I think so!

Every single person is trialled, even you are. The difficulties you have in life are a mean's for you to get closer to the Creator, because man is created weak. In time's of hardship - you may realise that there is no-one to turn to beside's Allaah. He will help you, if you are sincere insha'Allaah.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-12-2006, 07:08 PM
I feel it's kinda like a repetitive cycle.
Wow, agreement again. It is a repetitive cycle; it has been repeated since there were two tribes.
But we believe in paradise, so a true believer's desire isn't to grasp everything of this world.
True Believer? If by that you mean every one of every faith who truly believes, then I agree.
the disbeliever only ever think's of this world
If by disbeliever you mean atheists, then again we agree. That is as long as you don’t have the bigoted attitude that atheists don’t have morals.
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- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 07:12 PM
That's an end to the discussion then :) lol.



Peace.
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starfortress
10-12-2006, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hanif_Revert
It wouldnt suprise me if Iraq is to be split.
The age old tactic of Divide and Conquer
Have us fighting with each other for land and power for decades.
Same happened with parts of Africa, India/Pakistan etc. etc.
Of course, it was a famous doctrine in colonial time

Encouraged and Aided Shiite Muslims and Kurds to Rebel Against the Government of Iraq Causing Fratricidal Violence, Emigration,Exposure, Hunger and Sickness and Thousands of Deaths. After the Rebellion Failed, the U.S. Invaded and Occupied Parts of Iraq Without Lawful Authority in Order to Increase Division and Hostilities Within Iraq
This is the modern version but its more deadly with the new special tools at hand,its a U.N.

In his mad rush to war, Defendant Bush caused the United Nations to completely bypass Chapter VI of the U.N. Charter that mandates the specific settlement of international disputes. Defendant Bush consistently rejected and ridiculed all of Iraq's efforts to negotiate a peaceful resolution of the dispute. Defendant Bush proudly boasted that there would be no negotiation, no compromise, no face-saving, etc.
U.N on action.

Defendant Bush repeatedly coerced the members of the United Nations Security Council into adopting an unprecedented series of resolutions that culminated in his securing authority for any nation to use "all necessary means" to enforce these resolutions. To secure these votes in the Security Council, Defendant Bush paid multi-billion-dollar bribes; offered arms for regional wars; threatened and carried out economic retaliation; illegally forgave multi-billion-dollar loans; offered diplomatic relations despite human rights violations; and in other ways corruptly exacted votes. This illegal activity subverted and perverted the very Purposes and Principles of the United Nations Charter itself found in articles 1 and 2 thereof.
Bush Corrupted the United Nations.

But the success of the Arab oil boycott led several prominent U.S. government officials in the Nixon administration, and especially Henry Kissinger, to publicly threaten that the United States government would prepare itself to seize the Arab oil fields in order to prevent something like the boycott from ever happening again. This illegal governmental threat was stated openly, publicly, and repeatedly during the course of the Nixon administration, the Ford administration, the Carter administration, and the Reagan administration. The Bush administration would finally be the ones to carry this threat out. But only after a decade of active preparations.
Why Iraq,not the North Korea or Sudan,obviously the main reason war on Iraq is the Oil posession for U.S.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis19.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/515637-post23.html
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therebbe
10-12-2006, 09:11 PM
when the Kurds are sunni.
Then why did the Sunni Saddam gas Kurds if they were "Sunni"?
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wilberhum
10-12-2006, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by therebbe
Then why did the Sunni Saddam gas Kurds if they were "Sunni"?
Why do you think Saddam cared about anything other than Saddam?
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*noor
10-12-2006, 09:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by starfortress

Why Iraq,not the North Korea or Sudan,obviously the main reason war on Iraq is the Oil posession for U.S.

http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis19.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/515637-post23.html

i think that goes without saying
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Islamicboy
10-12-2006, 10:00 PM
Its not the west or american fault muslims in iraq are killing each other. Muslims are at fault for killing each other in Iraq. Blaming America or west is the easy way out to prove to others its not muslims.
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wilberhum
10-12-2006, 10:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Its not the west or american fault muslims in iraq are killing each other. Muslims are at fault for killing each other in Iraq. Blaming America or west is the easy way out to prove to others its not muslims.
It is always good to hear a reasonable voice. Good on you.
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Joe98
10-12-2006, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
How much muslim's has the west killed? Within 5yrs? Since 9/11?
The answer is NIL.

Killing is against Islam.

So when a US soldier shoots a killer that killer could not possibly have been a Muslim, just a killer.
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- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 10:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
The answer is NIL.

Killing is against Islam.

So when a US soldier shoots a killer that killer could not possibly have been a Muslim, just a killer.

Killing isn't against islaam, killing a life that Allaah Almighty has made sacred is against islaam.


Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-12-2006, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Killing isn't against islaam, killing a life that Allaah Almighty has made sacred is against islaam.


Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Has Allaah Almighty made my life sacred?
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- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Has Allaah Almighty made my life sacred?

The one's who believe in Allaah and His sign's, they are sacred in the sight of Allaah Almighty.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-12-2006, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The one's who believe in Allaah and His sign's, they are sacred in the sight of Allaah Almighty.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
But what about me? I don't believe in Allaah.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
But what about me? I don't believe in Allaah.

Doesn't the above answer your question? Anyway, you do actually believe in a Creator. So you're one out of three step's closer to believing compared to an atheist.

Now all you gota do is to accept that None is worthy of worship except Allaah - the Creator, and to believe in His beautiful Name's and Attributes.



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-12-2006, 10:46 PM
Doesn't the above answer your question?
NO. That is why I repeated it.
It is really a simple yes or no question.
Pelase give me a yes or no answer.
Has Allaah Almighty made my life sacred?
Reply

- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 10:57 PM
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever says Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah (there is none worthy of worship besides Allaah) and rejects everything that is worshipped instead of Allaah, his property and his blood will be sacred [i.e., it is forbidden to seize his property or shed his blood] and his reckoning will be with Allaah.” (Narrated by Muslim).


In order for his property and his blood to be protected, he must, in addition to saying Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah, also reject whatever is worshipped instead of Allaah, no matter who or what it is.

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref...eng&txt=sacred



So from there, if you don't actually believe that Allaah alone is worthy of worship, then it may be that your life isn't sacred in the sight of Allaah. Because the whole purpose of Allaah creating you was so that you obey Him, but if you turn away from that, then one is putting their desire's (i.e. wealth, or another form of law) before the law of Allaah, which may be a form of associating partner's with Him, Almighty.



“And they were commanded not, but that they should worship Allaah, and worship none but Him Alone (abstaining from ascribing partners to Him)…”

[al-Bayyinah 98:5]



“Whoever brings a good deed (i.e. belief in the Oneness of Allaah along with every deed of righteousness), will have better than its worth; and they will be safe from the terror on that Day”

[al-Naml 27:89]



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-12-2006, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever says Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah (there is none worthy of worship besides Allaah) and rejects everything that is worshipped instead of Allaah, his property and his blood will be sacred [i.e., it is forbidden to seize his property or shed his blood] and his reckoning will be with Allaah.” (Narrated by Muslim).


In order for his property and his blood to be protected, he must, in addition to saying Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah, also reject whatever is worshipped instead of Allaah, no matter who or what it is.

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref...eng&txt=sacred




So from there, if you don't actually believe that Allaah alone is worthy of worship, then it may be that your life isn't sacred in the sight of Allaah. Because the whole purpose of Allaah creating you was so that you obey Him, but if you turn away from that, then one is putting their desire's (i.e. wealth, or another form of law) before the law of Allaah, which may be a form of associating partner's with Him, Almighty.



“And they were commanded not, but that they should worship Allaah, and worship none but Him Alone (abstaining from ascribing partners to Him)…”

[al-Bayyinah 98:5]



“Whoever brings a good deed (i.e. belief in the Oneness of Allaah along with every deed of righteousness), will have better than its worth; and they will be safe from the terror on that Day”

[al-Naml 27:89]



Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Talk about a simple yes or no.
Could I have a one word answer to the question?
Reply

- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 11:01 PM
If you can read, you'll find it by reading what i've said.



Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-12-2006, 11:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If you can read, you'll find it by reading what i've said.



Peace.
Since you don’t seam to have the ability to say what you mean, I will give you my interpretation.
According to you any Muslim may take the life of any non-Muslim and it is not considered killing.

And you have the courage to sign off with "Peace".
Reply

- Qatada -
10-12-2006, 11:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Since you don’t seam to have the ability to say what you mean, I will give you my interpretation.
According to you any Muslim may take the life of any non-Muslim and it is not considered killing.

And you have the courage to sign off with "Peace".

Okay, and where did i say that? I said that the life of the one who sincerely believe's that there is none worthy of worship besides Allaah, his/her life is sacred.

Secondly, i don't want to say anything i don't have knowledge of, so i never said which non muslim's might not be permissible to 'kill'. I have read in some of brother Ansar's articles that killing of innocent's isn't allowed though.



Anyway i'm out, talk tomorrow insha'Allaah. Just keep an open mind and we can discuss, better than always arguing. We've got too much of that in the world we're living in, so let's try to undo that insha'Allaah.


Peace! lol :)
Reply

Hanif_Revert
10-13-2006, 12:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Islam is not just a religion. It also has a political agenda. All one has to do is look at the number of groups trying to create Islamic States.
Doesnt the west have a political agenda, tryig to create 'Dimocracy' accross the world
or
"A new world Order"
Reply

Hanif_Revert
10-13-2006, 12:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Why do you think Saddam cared about anything other than Saddam?
So if that's a reason to invade Iraq, what about Zimbabwe and presedent Magabi? who is known to slaughter whole families if they dont vote for him.

Should'nt they be invaded by the west too?
Reply

Hanif_Revert
10-13-2006, 12:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
The answer is NIL.

Killing is against Islam.

So when a US soldier shoots a killer that killer could not possibly have been a Muslim, just a killer.
Open your eye's and look at all the inocent people (men, women and children) that have been killed by the conflict in Iraq.

How many years has there been fighting.

Are you telling me with all those 'Bombs over Baghdad' No inocents died?

To say that 'NIL' have been killed is ludacrus.

You cant honestly believe what your writing
Reply

*noor
10-13-2006, 01:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Since you don’t seam to have the ability to say what you mean, I will give you my interpretation.
According to you any Muslim may take the life of any non-Muslim and it is not considered killing.

And you have the courage to sign off with "Peace".
i think i might have gone blind for a while there...i didn't see him post that...its either you're seeing things or you need to learn how to not misquote others.
Reply

starfortress
10-13-2006, 01:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Its not the west or american fault muslims in iraq are killing each other. Muslims are at fault for killing each other in Iraq. Blaming America or west is the easy way out to prove to others its not muslims.
Bro you should state the west or american not at totally fault- muslims in iraq are killing each other.Thats more rationale i guess.

Much of what Iraq received from the US, however, were not arms per se, but so-called dual-use technology— mainframe computers, armored ambulances, helicopters, chemicals, and the like, with potential civilian uses as well as military applications. It is now known that a vast network of companies, based in the U.S. and elsewhere, fed Iraq's warring capabilities right up until August 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait [7]
The United States was among several powerful countries that supported Iraq during the war, including Britain, France, the Soviet Union, and West Germany.
Source

The U.S. presence in Iraq--pitting Shia, Sunni and Kurdish Iraqis against one another--has fanned the flames of sectarian violence. From the beginning, the U.S. selected members of the Iraqi Governing Council to highlight sectarian divisions.
How the U.S. caused Iraq’s nightmare
Reply

starfortress
10-13-2006, 09:02 AM
"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful"

Killing is prohibited and counted as among the biggest sin. In this respect, the Holy Qur’an lays down:

It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel: "Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed corruption in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! And whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still corrupting on the Earth. (5:32).

Say: "Come let me recite to you what your Lord has forbidden for you: that you should not set up anything with Him; and be kind to your parents; and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is plain of it or subtle; and do not kill the soul which God has made sacred(forbidden),except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend." (6:151).

No killing shall be committed by human except there is valid justification.

format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Has Allaah Almighty made my life sacred?
So in this case my answer is Yes.

Allah know best

p/s-someone please correct me if im wrong.
Reply

Keltoi
10-13-2006, 01:51 PM
Back on topic. I must make a correction from my earlier post. Before I thought splitting Iraq up into three autonymous regions was a good idea. However, I saw Aparisim "Bobby" Ghosh on C-Span this morning and he convinced me that this is actually a fairly bad idea. Ghosh is a senior correspondent from Time Magazine and has alot of experience in Iraq. As Ghosh says, history has taught us that the West drawing lines on a map is a bad idea. India is a perfect example of what this can lead to. So I retract my earlier support of this idea.
Reply

Islamicboy
10-13-2006, 02:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IceQueen~
that is a sign of qiyama too- when iraq will be split into 3!!!
I never heard this before can you tell me which hadeeth is this?

jazakllah khair
Reply

wilberhum
10-13-2006, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by *noor
i think i might have gone blind for a while there...i didn't see him post that...its either you're seeing things or you need to learn how to not misquote others.
I was in error when I said "The posts were deleted".
Still, rom what he posted, there can be no other conclusion
Reply

wilberhum
10-13-2006, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hanif_Revert
So if that's a reason to invade Iraq, what about Zimbabwe and presedent Magabi? who is known to slaughter whole families if they dont vote for him.

Should'nt they be invaded by the west too?
Do you assume that I support the invasion of Iraq? If so, you need to go back are read.
Reply

wilberhum
10-13-2006, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
wilberhum, seriosly. i won't say that atheist's don't have morals - but now you're giving me an excuse to say otherwise.

Peace.
I have recorrected my correction. I looked and could not find the posts.
I, in error, assumed they had been deleted,
Sorry for that.
I will respond to the last one in a while.

PS I'm not an atheist.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-13-2006, 04:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I have recorrected my correction. I looked and could not find the posts.
I, in error, assumed they had been deleted,
Sorry for that.
I will respond to the last one in a while.

PS I'm not an atheist.

Thank's for being honest. May Allaah guide us all to the right path, ameen.



Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-13-2006, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Thank's for being honest. May Allaah guide us all to the right path, ameen.



Peace.
Does my honesty supprise you? :giggling: :hiding:
Reply

wilberhum
10-13-2006, 05:45 PM
Starfortress
Thank you, but I have one problem with your post.
who has not committed corruption in the land
That is so open to interpretation that you could make a case to include anyone you wanted. As a US taxpayer, you could surly include me as a "Corruptor of the land".
Right? Or could you give me Quranic quote that defines a “Corruptor of the land”?
Reply

wilberhum
10-13-2006, 05:52 PM
Fi_Sabilillah
You said:
Killing isn't against islaam, killing a life that Allaah Almighty has made sacred is against islaam.
Assumption: Islam does not forbid killing someone who Allah has not made sacred.
Question: Is my assumption wrong?

And:
The one's who believe in Allaah and His sign's, they are sacred in the sight of Allaah Almighty.
Assumption: One who does not believe in Allah is not sacred.
Question: Is my assumption wrong?

Conclusion: In the Allah, any Muslim may take the life of any non-Muslim and it is not considered killing.
Question: Is my conclusion wrong? If so please explain.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-13-2006, 06:07 PM
Hi wilberhum.


If it's wrong to kill innocent's who aren't fighting against the muslims, then obviously we're not allowed to harm them. This is why i never said that their lives are sacred, because i don't know whether their classed as that or not.


Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-13-2006, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Hi wilberhum.


If it's wrong to kill innocent's who aren't fighting against the muslims, then obviously we're not allowed to harm them. This is why i never said that their lives are sacred, because i don't know whether their classed as that or not.


Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.
New conclusion: If some Muslims start an unjust war. Then it is OK to kill those non-Muslims that fight for what is just.
Reply

Keltoi
10-13-2006, 06:13 PM
Overall Conclusion: This conversation is way off topic.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-13-2006, 06:14 PM
Depend's on what you mean by 'unjust' war. If the reason for the war isn't legitimate (islamically) anyway, then how can it be OK to fight against the opposition?



Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-13-2006, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Depend's on what you mean by 'unjust' war. If the reason for the war isn't legitimate (islamically) anyway, then how can it be OK to fight against the opposition?



Peace.
How can I answer the question for you?
Apparently our "Moral Compasses" don't point in the same direction.
So I assume that I can not answer anything for you.
Reply

- Qatada -
10-13-2006, 06:30 PM
I don't think you understood what i said. If it's not a just war anyway (i.e. the intention behind it is unislamic) - then that doesn't justify the killing of the opposition. Because the group doesn't have the right intention to start off the war in the first place.



Allaah Almighty know's best.


Peace.
Reply

wilberhum
10-13-2006, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I don't think you understood what i said. If it's not a just war anyway (i.e. the intention behind it is unislamic) - then that doesn't justify the killing of the opposition. Because the group doesn't have the right intention to start off the war in the first place.



Allaah Almighty know's best.


Peace.
A direct answer! Thank you.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
10-13-2006, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
And guess whose idea was it to split Iraq?

[PIE]AN independent commission set up by Congress with the approval of President George W Bush may recommend carving up Iraq into three highly autonomous regions, according to well informed sources.[/PIE]
Well, President Bush has been reading too many records like:

"This is the interpretation of the matter: MENE, God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end; TEKEL, you have been weighed in the balances and found wanting; PERES, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians." Then Belshazzar commanded, and Daniel was clothed with purple, a chain of gold was put about his neck, and proclamation was made concerning him, that he should be the third ruler in the kingdom." Book of Daniel 5:26-29 RSV

Writing on the wall... taken to one hell of an extreme!

Ninth Scribe
Reply

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