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luke07930
10-21-2006, 03:30 PM
Can the Islamic faith ever be truly at peace in a society with freedom of speach? More to the point can muslims as individuals ever find peace when they live in a world where inevitably people will critisise their beliefs, books and prophet?

Surely the teaching of loving Mohammed more than youre own family makes this an impossibility?

If this is the case where do we go from here?

It is human nature to debate, enquire, critisise, lampoon and sometimes even insult.

So either human nature changes or Islam has to soften its heart and either introduce a teaching of compassion for people who are percieved to have insulted Allah and his prophet.

Allah will do all the punishing, no need for a day of anger etc.

There is no need for anger at all, you only need to have compassion for the Danish cartoonists because according to Islam they will be punished by Allah when they die??

Is it possible to reform Islam or introduce new ideas like compassion for people who you percieve to have insulted Islam, when Islam is supposed to be the word of Allah himself.

Can it reform to be more flexible to different and conflicting ideas in a complex world???????????
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akulion
10-21-2006, 03:46 PM
Salam Alaikum,

Well it seems that you are judging the Islamic faith based upon the actions of a handful of Muslims. Yup a handful.

Muslims are currently over a billion in the world! And the rowdy actions you see happening are actually the results of a couple of 100's if not 1000's which is a great minority.

To give you a basic idea of Islam, first let me introduce you to the greeting I gave you at the beginnin of this post "salam Alaikum" it means "Peace be upon you" a greeting for all the Prophets of God, wishing peace upon people and wishing them well.

In Islam we are tought that Islam is the serving of food and pleasant talk. A methaphor, where 'serving of food' represents hospitality and 'pleasant talk' represents good pleasant speech with all people.

Prophet Mohammed(s) was a man who showed compassion to all people and tought the universal message of Monotheism to all of humanity. If you read the history of Arabia, you will read that prior to the event of Mohammed(s) arrival, Arabia was a very barbaric place, where women were often burried alive and people were indulging in idol worship - after all what could be more vain that making a statue and then worshipping it?

Prophet Mohammed(s) tought people the truth and showed them great love and compassion, through which people emerged from the depths of their ignorance into an enlightned era.

The Era I talk about is the same Era during which the Europe was in the dark ages, while Muslim lands were the centr of all technology, and culture. This is well archived and recorded in history books.

Compassion is the center of Islam, that is why it spread so quickly across the globe. The church has always tried to undermine Islam by making claims "Islam was tought by the sword" but historians (non muslim historians at that too!) have proven the opposite in fact! The rapid spread of Islam is attributed now widely to simple things such as:

- Islam gave people equal rights, black are equal to whites and all people were treatedly justly.

- Islam gave people freedom of choice of religion and freedom of worship, wheras other religions were condeming it

- Islam gave women the right to vote, to voice their opinions and the right to divorce, work and so many others. Something we take for granted but Islam brought it 1500 years ago..wheras take the USA, their equal rights bill for women was only passed n the 1860's

- Islam gave people freedom of property

- Islam gave people freedom of choice and of speech as well. While at the same time it protected people against indecent speech of others.

- Islam laid the basis of social welfare in society via Zakah, one of the first organized welfare system known to humanity!

- Islam tought peope self dicipline through the beauty of fasting in Ramadan, something which people also did before hand from the same lineage of religions: Christianity, and Judaism

There is much to say and I believe making my initial reply post to you too long would be cumbersome for you to read and also may take your interest off the whole topic.

So lets hope that throughout this thread we can discuss aspects of Islam one by one , because from your words I can tell that you are truly holding some very big misconceptions about Islam based on the acts of people. always remember - Judge not Islam on the actions of individuals, but judge Islam based on what it teaches :)

Bro aku
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scentsofjannah
10-21-2006, 03:52 PM
criticisms :thumbs_up
debates :thumbs_up
discussions :thumbs_up
dialogues :thumbs_up
goodnatured disagreements :thumbs_up
insults :thumbs_do
violent reactions to peoples offensive remarks :thumbs_do

We should draw a fine line between criticisms and insult..otherwise we will have a society filled with hate, animosity and disharmony and discord.

to insult- To treat with gross insensitivity, insolence, or contemptuous rudeness.

To affront or demean

To give offense; offend: a speech that was intended to insult.
People are free to do what they like in the end the consequences of their decisions will become apparent to them..lets see what sort of a society we will have when we insult each others religions, objects of worship, clothes etc.
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scentsofjannah
10-21-2006, 03:57 PM
the Danish people need to ask themselves serious questions especially if you all know many of them think that crime is low in Denmark because they don't have many black people! which is hardly surprising given the fact that the danish people have been isolated for far too long from the world and from other 'coloured' people.
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- Qatada -
10-21-2006, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by luke07930
Can the Islamic faith ever be truly at peace in a society with freedom of speach? More to the point can muslims as individuals ever find peace when they live in a world where inevitably people will critisise their beliefs, books and prophet?

Surely the teaching of loving Mohammed more than youre own family makes this an impossibility?

If this is the case where do we go from here?

Refer to this link to get a better understanding of how society was a better place where people were tolerant of other faiths, yet the islamic law was applied:

http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12



It is human nature to debate, enquire, critisise, lampoon and sometimes even insult.

So either human nature changes or Islam has to soften its heart and either introduce a teaching of compassion for people who are percieved to have insulted Allah and his prophet.

It is human nature to debate, enquire and discuss respectively. Insulting doesn't have to take place, the same way anger is an emotion but it doesn't always have to be applied.


Allah will do all the punishing, no need for a day of anger etc.

There is no need for anger at all, you only need to have compassion for the Danish cartoonists because according to Islam they will be punished by Allah when they die??

Nay, but verily man is rebellious

In that he looketh upon himself as self-sufficient.

Verily, to thy Lord is the return (of all).



[Qur'an 96: 6-8]




Is it possible to reform Islam or introduce new ideas like compassion for people who you percieve to have insulted Islam, when Islam is supposed to be the word of Allah himself.

Can it reform to be more flexible to different and conflicting ideas in a complex world???????????

Allaah Almighty has perfected this religion for us, we don't need to make comprimises to change it. Why should we change the law of Allaah, when this is what the jews and christians fell into, and they went astray.




Peace.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-21-2006, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by luke07930
It is human nature to debate, enquire, critisise, lampoon and sometimes even insult.
I would have hoped it is human nature to have some RESPECT as well, for other people. Insulting, stereotyping and alienating those who are different from us are the remnants of savage tribalism which should have been eradicated long ago.

Before you advocate 'reforming' Islam, it is imperative that you understand just what this religion teaches. Let us look at its teachings from the mouth of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself:

Many people these days wonder what the teachings of Islam are; what better way to find out than to turn to the words of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself? Following are 51 prophetic sayings to provide the reader with a glimpse of his teachings in every aspect of life:

Spirituality
The Prophet said: 'Wealth does not come from having great riches; (true) wealth is contentment of the soul.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Cognizance
The Prophet said: 'The similitude of the one who contemplates his Lord versus the one who does not is that of the living versus the dead.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Sincerity
The Prophet said: 'Actions will be judged according to their intentions.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Mercy
The Prophet said: 'Show mercy to those on earth so that He who is in heaven will have mercy on you.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Gentleness
The Prophet said: 'Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good.' (Sahîh Muslim)

Forgiveness
The Prophet said: 'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Virtue
The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Justice
The Prophet said: 'The most virtuous jihâd is when one speaks a word of truth before an unjust ruler.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

Civility
The Prophet said: 'The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely, or speak rudely.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Honesty
The Prophet said: 'Honesty leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man remains honest and concerned about honesty until he is recorded as an honest man with Allah. Lying leads to sinfulness and sinfulness leads to the Fire. A man keeps lying and remains partial to lies until he is recorded as a liar with Allah.' (Sahîh Bukharî, Sahîh Muslim)

Tolerance
Once the Prophet was seated at some place in Madinah, along with his Companions. During this time a funeral procession passed by. On seeing this, the Prophet stood up. One of his companions remarked that the funeral was that of a Jew. The Prophet replied, “Was he not a human being?” (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim, Sunan An-Nasâ'î)

A disbelieving Bedouin urinated in the mosque, and the people rushed to beat him. Allah's Apostle ordered them to leave him alone, let him finish and pour water over the place where he has passed urine. The Prophet then explained to the Bedouin calmly, "This is a place of worship, in it is the worship of God and the reading of Qur'an." After the Bedouin had left, the Prophet then said to his companions, " You have been sent to make things easy (for the people) and you have not been sent to make things difficult for them." (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Equality
The Prophet said: 'There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a fair-skinned person over a person with dark skin, nor for a dark-skinned person over a person with fair skin. Whoever is more pious and God-fearing is more deserving of honour.' (Musnad Ahmad)

Gratitude
The Prophet said: 'Contemplate those who have less than you and not those who have more than you, lest you belittle the favors of Allah conferred upon you'. (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Simplicity
The Prophet said: 'What is little but sufficient is better than that which is abundant but causes heedlessness.' (Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)

Humility
The Prophet said: 'God has revealed to me that you must be humble, so that no one oppresses another and boasts over another.' (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)

Generosity
The Prophet said: 'The food of two people is enough for three, and the food of three people is enough for four.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Appreciation
The Prophet said: 'Whoever does not thank people (for their favors) has not thanked Allah (properly), Mighty and Glorious is He!' (Musnad Ahmad, Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Calmness
The Prophet said: 'Calmness and determination is from Allah and haste is from Satan.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Patience
The Prophet said: 'No one can give a better or more abundant gift than patience.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Perseverance
The Prophet said: 'There is no clement person who has not stumbled, nor is there no wise person who possesses no experience.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Mustadarak Al-Hâkim)

Nonjudgemental
The Prophet said: 'Do not search for (the faults of others), for if anyone searches for (others) faults, God will search for his.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd)

Selfcritical
The Prophet said: 'Blessed is he who preoccupies himself with his own defects, rather than those of others.' (Musnad Al-Bazzâr)

Advice
The Prophet said: 'Make things easy (for people) and do not make them difficult, and cheer people up and do not drive them away.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Moderation
The Prophet said: 'The religion (of Islam) is easy. No one ever made it difficult without it becoming too much for him. So avoid extremes and strike a balance, do the best you can and be cheerful, and seek Allah's help (through prayer) in the morning, and evening, and part of the night.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)

Charity
The Prophet said: 'Charity (sadaqah) is due upon every joint of a person on every day that the sun rises. Administering justice between two people is an act of charity; and to help a man concerning his riding beast by helping him on to it or lifting his luggage on to it is an act of charity; a good word is charity; and every step which you take to prayer is charity; and removing that which is harmful from the road is charity.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)

Community
The Prophet said: 'The believer is not the one who eats his fill when the neighbour beside him is hungry.' (Sunan Al-Bayhaqî)

Affability
The Prophet said: 'The believer is one who is sociable [with others], and there is no benefit in one who is not sociable [with others] nor in one who is not met sociably [by them].' (Mustadarak Al-Hâkim, Shu'ab al-Îmân Al-Bayhaqî)

Business Ethics
The Prophet said: 'A truthful and trustworthy merchant will be in the company of the prophets, the very truthful, and the martyrs.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ad-Dârimî, Sunan Ad-Dâraqutnî)

Employment
The Prophet said: 'Pay the laborer his due before his sweat dries.' (Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

Leadership
The Prophet said: 'On a journey, the leader of the group is their servant.' (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Shu'ab Al-Îmân Al-Bayhaqî)

Reliability
The Prophet said: 'He who does not keep his trusts lacks in faith and he who does not keep his agreements lacks in religion'. (Shu'ab Al-Îmân Al-Bayhaqî)

Accountability
The Prophet said: 'The burden of proof is upon the plaintiff and the taking of oath is upon the defendant.' (Sunan Al-Bayhaqî)

Responsibility
The Prophet said: 'Each one of you is a guardian and is responsible for what he is entrusted with.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Morality
The Prophet said: 'The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to their wives. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Nobility
The Prophet said: 'None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner, and none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Unity
The Prophet said: 'Believers are like a single person; if his eye is in pain his whole body pains, and if his head is in pain his whole body pains.' (Sahîh Muslim)

Family
The Prophet said: 'The best of you is the one who is best to his own family, and I am the best of you towards my family.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
The Prophet said: 'He is not one of us who does not show mercy to our little ones and respect to our elders.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Efficiency
The Prophet said: 'There are two blessings that many people fail to make the most of: good health and free time.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)

Education
The Prophet said: 'Seeking knowledge is a religious obligation for every Muslim (male or female).' (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan Al-Bayhaqî)

Inquiry
The Prophet said: 'The cure for ignorance is to question.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd)

Vigilance
The Prophet said: 'A believer is not stung from the same hole twice.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)

Discipline
The Prophet said: 'The wise one is he who has subdued his lower self and has prepared for what follows death. And the foolish one is he who has placed his lower self in pursuance of its desires and has vain hopes about Allah.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

Modesty
The Prophet said: 'Modesty is part of faith.' (Sahîh Muslim)

Beauty
The Prophet said: 'Allah is beautiful and loves beauty.' (Sahîh Muslim)

Hygiene
The Prophet said: 'Purity and cleanliness is part of faith.' (Sahîh Muslim)

Diet
The Prophet said: 'There is no vessel worse for the son of Adam to fill than his stomach. A few morsels are sufficient for him. If he is to consume more then a third is for his food, a third for his drink, and a third for air.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)

Nature
The Prophet said: 'If a Muslim plants a seedling or cultivates a field, whenever a bird a human or an animal eats of it, it will be counted as a charity for him.' (Sahîh Muslim)

Animals
The Prophet said: 'Anyone who kills even a sparrow for no reason (should know that) it will cry alound to Allah on the Day of the Resurrection, saying, "O my Lord! So-and-so killed me just for fun; he killed me for no reason!" ' (Sunan An-Nasâ'î)

A'isha said: 'I was once riding a difficult (slow-moving) camel, so I kept hitting it. When the Prophet saw me, he said: 'Be gentle, for gentleness adorns everything in which it is found, and its absence leaves everything tainted.' (Musnad Ahmad)

Is there any other leader who has blessed his followers with guidance and teachings so comprehensive and profound? This is why we love our Prophet, Muhammad, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.
SOURCE

Peace.
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luke07930
10-21-2006, 05:30 PM
I was not refering to the violent minority, people like Anjem Choudhary and Abu Izadeen are fascists not muslims. I was refering to the deep hurt profesed by true peacfull muslims over the cartoons. If mere cartoons can cause such deep hurt it means people must censor themselves when dealing with Islam and this aplies to nothing else.

You can ridicule Buddha I feel no pain, I can make as many jokes as I want about Christianity, I can critisise it totally and call it the nonsense I believe it to be and not see the kind of deep hurt that was seen in the muslim community. Infact Christianity has been lampooned and ridiculed constantly and there is no call from Christians to inforce blasphemy laws.

But correct me if I'm wrong many UK muslims would like to see a law against insulting Islam.

My question is not directed at the foolish fascists that use Islam as a disguise it is directed at the hurt and anger that the true muslims felt.

As for the extreme right wingers I found this guy on you tube. I think he is a voice of reason in all this craziness.,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGKV-...elated&search=

Why cant he be invited on to Newsnight instead of Choudhary and his ilk?
Reply

luke07930
10-21-2006, 06:04 PM
Thankyou Ansar, The quotes you have put here are very good teachings. They are just like the teachings of the Buddha Gautama. I especially like.

'''Wealth does not come from having great riches; (true) wealth is contentment of the soul''

''Actions will be judged according to their intentions''

'''Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good''


These are truly wise teachings, for me I have no time for god and no belief in teachings of the supernatural, or ideas about the celestial carrot and stick of heaven and hell. But teachings of peace, wisdom, acceptance, humility and spiritual progress are what matters, everything else is not important to me and society would be better of without them.

You should try to educate the mainstream media about such wise teachings because all we see in the media are quotes that refer to how much Allah will punish non believers.

Does Islam have the same teaching as Christianity? The teaching that god punishes non believers even if they are wise, peacefull and compassionate??

If so I think this is a destructive teaching, otherwise I think we have alot of common ground.

In the words of Zen Buddhist master Thich Nhat Hanh

''The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly alive''

And the Dalai Lama

''Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity
cannot survive''

''My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness''

''This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness''

As you can see we have alot in common.

Peace
Reply

Hijrah
10-21-2006, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by luke07930

Why cant he be invited on to Newsnight instead of Choudhary and his ilk?
That is EXACTLY what he is addressing in that video.
Reply

luke07930
10-21-2006, 06:12 PM
I know that Hijrah, that is exactly why I posted it. The voice of reason. We can all live in peace as long as we dont pay attention to the nutters on either side. Newsnight and the Today programme are very reckless to give airtime to Idiots like Izadeen and Choudhary without giving a forum to voices like this man here.
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snakelegs
10-22-2006, 03:26 AM
welcome to the forum - glad to see another buddhist here (we have only 1 as far as i know).
i also find it almost impossible to understand the depth of pain and anger muslims feel when their prophet is insulted.
but knowing this, i don't mind respecting it, even tho i don't think i will ever really be able to understand it and the concept is completely foreign to me.
as you can see, i belong to no religion and i am a fierce supporter of freedom of speech. but i see no merit to use it to insult or provoke.
i think in order to live together we will just have to accept that we will never be able to understand some people. and maybe we don't have to.
there are things about both islam and christianity that i will never understand.
i like Thich Nhat Hanh too - wonder what he would have to say about this issue? he's one of the most peace loving people i have come across.
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justahumane
10-22-2006, 08:34 AM
Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
It is human nature to debate, enquire and discuss respectively. Insulting doesn't have to take place, the same way anger is an emotion but it doesn't always have to be applied.
Well brother, where u draw ur line between debate, inquiry, discussion and insults? Plz have a look on a portion of ur own post in following thread, post #14 is post in question

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...net-hindu.html

Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
subhan Allaah, this show's that every other faith is against islaam because the other faiths can comprimise their religion, whereas islaam is firm on the truth. So they try to lead us away from that.. i feel sorry for her, because women are treated worser than animals in their religion.
So isnt this an insult to any religion? If it is than why U feel that only a muslim is aurhorized to do so?

Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Allaah Almighty has perfected this religion for us, we don't need to make comprimises to change it. Why should we change the law of Allaah, when this is what the jews and christians fell into, and they went astray.
Good point brother, its true that although muslims have been extremely kind to holy quran as a book, its also a truth that muslims have been extremely hypocritic with its laws. And indeed ALLAH revealed holy quran to be followed and not just to be preserving it as a book in shelves. For me muslims are no better than jews and christians in this regard, as muslims didnt changed it but made laws for themselves, while christians and jews changed it(as per islamic sources). So is there possibility that ALLAH can be as angry with muslims for making mockery of his laws as he was/is with jews and christians? If yes than can we expect a new guidence from ALLAH on same lines??? given the fact that we dont have any shariyah-abidint society in this big islamic world? not even a single, isnt it shameful for muslims? or they can hold their head high after achieving such a dubious distinction? After all every individual is anwerable to ALLAH.

Thanks.
Reply

justahumane
10-22-2006, 08:55 AM
Posted by Ansâr Al-'Adl
would have hoped it is human nature to have some RESPECT as well, for other people. Insulting, stereotyping and alienating those who are different from us are the remnants of savage tribalism which should have been eradicated long ago.
Before you advocate 'reforming' Islam, it is imperative that you understand just what this religion teaches. Let us look at its teachings from the mouth of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself
Brother Ansar congrats for yet another most convincing post from U. I must admit that I havent come across a single muslim debator as clear and honest with his views like U.

No one can truely doubt the noble,compassionate, honest, and just character of the holy prophet. But why muslims (majority of) have failed to even follow even a little portion of his legendry character inspite of his clear instructions to Ummah to follow holy quran and sunnah. I have many muslim friends who can be termed as best of human beings, but I know how much they have strayed from their religion.......I know some good muslims in technical terms, but I know how much hatred they have for kuffar like us.

What actually went wrong with Muslims inspite of such clear teaching available regarding their reiigon? Shouldnt it be the question of the hour?
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luke07930
10-22-2006, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by Avicenna
^^ Watch out, I saw him in the infidels.org forum slandering Islam and Muslims.
Hello Avicenna. Please dont tell lies about people just because you dont like what they say. It is childish. I have never been on a site called infidels.org or slandered anyone. Unless you consider debating religion from the standpoint of total disbelief slander? If so then you are one of the religious people I have mentioned earlier. Someone Who believes that their beliefs are beyond debate or critisism. You havent seen me before so please refrain from acting like a school child telling tales.

And Hello to you to Snakelegs, yes Thich Nhat Hanh is full of wisdom and love. A truly great man.


As I have said above, thanks to Ansar I have seen for the first time some beautifull examples of wisdom in the Islamic religion. My only problem is like the bible the Koran is contradictory. There are beautifull, peacfull teachings but also many passages that can be interpreted as a call for intolorance and seem to instill a sense of superiority in the vain and missguided followers of Islam.

I wont go into the violence that is in all the monothiestic holy books, but I will say there is wisdom and intolorance in the holy books and anyone can cherry pick the nasty passages and take them out of their context, to be used to inspire hate in others. As we have seen with people like Hamza.

Ansar qoutes wisdom like this 'Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good.' to prove the goodness of Islam. But the complicated nature of the Koran leaves it open for the Chouhary's, Izadeens and Hamzas of the world to qoute passages like this...

''Verily, those who disbelieve in the religion of Islam, the Koran and Prophet Muhammed from among the People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the fire of hell. They are the worst of creatures''

...In order to ferment intolorance and and promote violence.

Dont get me wrong I'm not someone who believes Islam is a violent religion but it is open to be interpreted in this way and it is contradictory because just like the bible it has many passages that pour scorn on non believers.

And It is hard to reconsile the tolerant teachings wioth the intolerant ones. Which passages are right?? Which teachings you choose to follow is open to debate. You cant be tolerant and intolorant at the same time so for a young impressionable mind it would be difficult to define, if you have one imam teaching intolorance and onother teaching peace.

I realise that Hamza and co are fascists not Muslims but their are many young people who cant see the difference and as the Koran is seen as the word of god, when the cruel verses are read to them they take them as commandments.
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luke07930
10-22-2006, 11:18 AM
Oh and thankyou Avicenna for pointing me in the direction of infidels.org

I have just registered and found it to be full of inteligent and respectfull debate where most of the discussion is of a philsophical nature.

I have yet to find any Muslim bashing on there and I will challenge it if I do.

Once again I thankyou for directing me the the forum.
Reply

luke07930
10-22-2006, 11:23 AM
''also many passages that can be interpreted as a call for intolorance and seem to instill a sense of superiority in the vain and missguided followers of Islam.''

Let me clarify I do not mean that muslims are vain and missguided, but just as in any community people with negative traits such as vanity exsist. In fact just as I believe faith has a problem with closemindedness I think capitalist secularist cultures have a problem with vanity.

All systems are imperfect, thats life...
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- Qatada -
10-22-2006, 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by justahumane

So isnt this an insult to any religion? If it is than why U feel that only a muslim is aurhorized to do so?

I understand where you're coming from, and insha'Allaah i will take that advice. :) Thanks.


Good point brother, its true that although muslims have been extremely kind to holy quran as a book, its also a truth that muslims have been extremely hypocritic with its laws. And indeed ALLAH revealed holy quran to be followed and not just to be preserving it as a book in shelves. For me muslims are no better than jews and christians in this regard, as muslims didnt changed it but made laws for themselves, while christians and jews changed it(as per islamic sources). So is there possibility that ALLAH can be as angry with muslims for making mockery of his laws as he was/is with jews and christians? If yes than can we expect a new guidence from ALLAH on same lines??? given the fact that we dont have any shariyah-abidint society in this big islamic world? not even a single, isnt it shameful for muslims? or they can hold their head high after achieving such a dubious distinction? After all every individual is anwerable to ALLAH.

Thanks.

I agree that the majority of us muslim's have given up on following the command's given to us by Allaah Almighty. Or some take a pick and mix, which is kinda dangerous because like you rightly said - this is what the previous nation's did.


Allaah Almighty has said:

O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy. (Qur'an 2:208)

Have you not noticed why us muslims are so weak today? It's because we've given up the book of Allaah, and the way of His messenger (peace be upon him) in replace for our culture and desires. However, the companions of the messenger of Allaah were successful because they accepted islaam whole-heartedly so Allaah gave them victory, in this life and the hereafter.




We also know that the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

You would tread the same path as was trodden by those before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this also. We said: Allah's Messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians (by your words) "those before you"? He said: Who else (than those two religious groups)? [Sahih Muslim, 6448]

And we're seeing all of that take place today. Allaah Almighty know's best, but this may be the reason why we are in this state, because Allaah Almighty honored the companions of the messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) by islaam, so we as muslims shouldn't try to gain honor by any method other than islaam.



However, we know that Allaah Almighty never protected the revelation of the earlier prophets, and it was upto them to preserve the message. However, Allaah Almighty has protected the revelation and no-one will be able to change it till the day of judgement.


You may ask why, why did the earlier revelations have to be protected by the people, and this one doesn't have to? The reason for this is because the earlier nations never had to spread the message [due to the fact that the other prophets came to their own nation only] whereas Muhammad [peace be upon him] is a messenger for all of mankind, so Allaah protect's the message for us, and it is our duty to convey it.



Allaah Almighty says:

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. (Qur'an 5:3)


From the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him) till the day of judgement, there will be no more messengers from Allaah, because the religion has been perfected now. Allaah Almighty doesn't need to reveal any new scriptures because if we want a perfect life, all we need is to return back to the Qur'an and Authentic Sunnah whole heartedly.

If we put this into practise, Allaah will strengthen the muslim's once again, this can only take place by obeying Allaah, his messenger and with patience.




Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace. :)
Reply

justahumane
10-22-2006, 03:14 PM
Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I understand where you're coming from, and insha'Allaah i will take that advice. Thanks.
Thanks for realizing brother.

Though I agree with most of ur comments U made in here. But I have something to discuss on these lines of perfected religion, changed scripture, and weak Ummah. I m short of time right now, but InshAllah will spare it soon to join U later.

Thanks again.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
10-22-2006, 06:10 PM
Hi Luke :)
Originally Posted by luke07930
Thankyou Ansar, The quotes you have put here are very good teachings.
I'm glad you enjoyed them :). I totally agree with you that we need to get quotes like these out to the media to help people understand what Islam really teaches and to eliminate misconceptions. It is unfortunate that the media has failed to provide accurate and authentic information about Islam to the citizens of the west; instead of quoting from the primary Islamic sources, it continually plays a game of "He said, she said", selectively bringing people in the spotlight who by no means represent the Muslim community.

As for your view that other passages of the Qur'an may appear contradictory, if you actually read the Qur'an you will see why it is the baseless interpretations of such passages which others provides that are contradictory, not the passages themselves. Please see my compilation:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions
As for other claims of contradictions in the Qur'an, I have the following series of articles:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...orious%20Quran

There is no such thing as a cruel verse in the Qur'an as you will see from the first link. Cruelty is not an attribute of God, He is Just but He is also Merciful.

Does Islam have the same teaching as Christianity? The teaching that god punishes non believers even if they are wise, peacefull and compassionate??
http://www.islamicboard.com/513809-post11.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/516215-post19.html

As you can see we have alot in common.

Peace
Absolutely. Thank you for sharing :)

For a discussion on understanding the Qur'an, please see:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ing-quran.html

Regards
Reply

scentsofjannah
10-27-2006, 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by luke07930



As for the extreme right wingers I found this guy on you tube. I think he is a voice of reason in all this craziness.,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGKV-...elated&search=

Why cant he be invited on to Newsnight instead of Choudhary and his ilk?
BINGO!!!..i always demand to know why its ALWAYS this Chaudary guy..He's done more to harm Islam and Muslims than anyone else here in the U.K .if you've noticed he's ALWAYS on Sky news whenever Muslims make the headlines...it drives me up the wall! Imagine if after some drunken brawl the Saudi t.v interviewed one of those hooligans to represent the majority of the peaceloving decent british expats?..
Reply

Hijrah
10-27-2006, 08:05 PM
Who is Chaudary?
Reply

scentsofjannah
10-31-2006, 04:40 PM
hello again

Luke watch these two videos i think in one of them Anjem chaudary is debating with Shaykh Hamza Yusuf Hanson.

DEADLINE (Danish TV)
Hamza Yusuf on the Muhammad (s) Cartoon Controversy http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...55452693&hl=en

Link TV: Who Speaks For Islam? With Ray Suarez & Hamza Yusuf
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuurofE...m%2bdiscussion

Also thanks brother Ansar for the quotes..really beautiful and I'll email my friends and family with it inshaAllah
Reply

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