Threat of Hell, Promise of Heavan

[Avicenna]

All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile? Why do humans have to believe in God? Why would I go to hell if I rationally cannot feel His presence?

[Keltoi]

All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile? Why do humans have to believe in God? Why would I go to hell if I rationally cannot feel His presence?

The presence of God is everywhere. It isn't hard to "feel" God's presence if you are looking for that presence. I'm not sure what you would expect a Christian, Muslim, or Jew to say in reply to this question.

[جوري]

No one is forcing you to believe... Those of us who do.... have tons of other legitimate reasons for worship other than fear of hell's fire....... You are getting an infantile notion out of it simply because you are putting it in a very low common denominator........ not because that is all that religion entails.....If I were to put it in the very least... I'd say religion has set laws to govern mankind from moral and social degeneracy; and like any system including the sophisticated societal one, it is established on what it is you'll get out of it.......
Why do you study?
Why do you work?
Why do you play?
Why do you fornicate?
Why do you sleep?
Why do you bathe?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

God created you, so worship him or u go to hell.

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[Trumble]

All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile?

Yes, frankly. Personally I think its just to scare people into believing what there is no real reason for them to believe.

The presence of God is everywhere. It isn't hard to "feel" God's presence if you are looking for that presence. I'm not sure what you would expect a Christian, Muslim, or Jew to say in reply to this question.

That might be true of 'God' in the widest possible sense, in the form of the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God, or a universal consciousness of some sort, or Tao, or one of a hundred related concepts that spiritual man has come up with over the millennia for what must amount to the same thing.

The association of that sensed presence with the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God is not essential, however; its just associated with that by followers of those religions because its either the only concept they have, or the only one they choose to acknowledge. A 'New Age' type, for example, or a Taoist, would associate that perception with something completely different. The original question, therefore, stands as a good one. Even if the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God exists, why 'eternal d*mnation' just because you don't believe in that specific concept of God?

God created you, so worship him or u go to hell.

If there is any logic in that at all, it totally escapes me. WHY? Does God really have an ego so big that anyone who dares not bow down and worship (no matter how good a person they may be) goes to hell? The assumption that it it is self evident that God exists in the specific form that Jews, Christians and muslims perceive him is simply untrue. Even if you perceive a 'God', it/He doesn't have to fit that model which is more cultural than spiritual.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

God created you, so worship him or u go to hell.

What an icebreaker.
:p

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

What an icebreaker.
:D

u just got to tell them how it is sometimes :p

[Avicenna]

God created you, so worship him or u go to hell.

So God creates humans to worship Him? Does he need an ego stroke?

[Pk_#2]

LOL And then you killed it.

Nice one!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

If there is any logic in that at all, it totally escapes me. WHY? Does God really have an ego so big that anyone who dares not bow down and worship (no matter how good a person they may be) goes to hell? The assumption that it it is self evident that God exists in the specific form that Jews, Christians and muslims perceive him is simply untrue. Even if you perceive a 'God', it/He doesn't have to fit that model which is more cultural than spiritual.

u say god has a big ego and u being a sperm, and then DIRT, thats wat u r, SPERM N DIRT, and allah has moulded you, yet you say he has a big ego. Lol us humans are so pitiful, we dont even realise the greatness of GOd...

[aamirsaab]

So God creates humans to worship Him?

Amongst other things, yes.

Does he need an ego stroke?

That would imply God is human-like. Which He is not, for He is God.

[جوري]

Age old questions........ to be answered upon our incumbent death............. death has a way of expiating foolishness and making sophistication primitive again......... Eternal concepts aren't subject to change because fashions, or electronic gadgets become sophisticated. We'll always have the same needs............our meta needs, a chance at eternity...... I'd say that is an ego boast to the ephemeral beings who die... not the one who created them.........

[doodlebug]

assalam alaykum,

[64:6] That was because there came to them their Messengers with clear proofs (signs), but they said: “Shall mere men guide us?” So they disbelieved and turned away (from the truth), and Allah was not in need (of them). And Allah is Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all praise.



Allah does not need an ego stroke. He is in need of nothing whatsoever. You also do not need to worship Him at all, but know that because He is not in need of your worship He has no problem with dumping you into the hellfire for lacking it. It really doesn't matter to Him whether you believe or not, but it will indeed matter to you when Judgement day comes. It's all up to you.:)

[- Qatada -]

All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile? Why do humans have to believe in God? Why would I go to hell if I rationally cannot feel His presence?

The message of all the 3 Abrahamic religion's was to worship the Creator, the One who created the worlds and whatever is inside. If you find it hard to believe that there is a Creator, then is the chair your sitting on made by itself too?

If a simple chair can't be made by itself, then realise that the world, the food you eat, the clothes you wear, and a miracle like you, can't be made by itself either. And everything in this world was created for a purpose (including that chair!) so if you feel that the chair is made for a purpose and you're not, then does that chair have a better purpose than you?



Why did the Creator create us though? He created us not so we would walk around and gain wealth in this world, till we die. But there was a greater purpose, and that is so we worship Him. This world is an examhall, a trial where Allaah Almighty, God - see's everything we do.

He doesn't show himself because the trial is to see if people will reflect on this world and come to realise that there is a Creator, but not just that - but to be thankful to Him, and to submit to Him and realise the blessings He has given us. If He show's himself, then that's just giving the answers away to the exam, so we reflect on the creation to realise the signs of the Creator.



If you feel that the sign's of the Creator aren't reliable enough, imagine this.

The top that you're wearing probably has a label on, that label tells which company made the top. You don't have solid proof that it was made specifically by that company, but you only realise this because of the label/sign.

The same way, Allaah made this world, we don't see Him, but we reflect on His signs, and we know that no-one besides God, Allaah - the Creator can make anything better than the worlds and everything inside.


The sign's of Allaah are subtle, but you don't actually expect yourself walking in the street, and neon light's saying "Avicenna become muslim!" :p



Remember that if you are sincere in searching for the truth, Allaah will guide you. The people who are sincere, Allaah Almighty helps them - the same way if you're sincere in working to pass an exam, you're more likely to pass, instead of a student who messes about - then when the results come, they regret it and feel that they've lost.

Similarly, if a person doesn't strive hard to in this world to find the truth, and messes about like a student who doesn't want to focus in class, they will end up getting the result's anyway, the same way the one's who obeyed the teacher did.


But the difference will be that the one's who believed, obeyed, and did good works - they will be rewarded, whereas those who disbelieved and ignored the message, they will be punished. The teacher didn't waste the whole time on nothing, Allaah Almighty never created the world for no purpose. And the student wasn't created for nothing, but they were there to believe and understand, and to submit, but if they failed in that - they will be regrettful of it's consequences.




Allaah Almighty know's best, if you got any questions - please don't hesitate to ask. :)




Peace.

[Trumble]

The same way, Allaah made this world, we don't see Him, but we reflect on His signs, and we know that no-one besides God, Allaah - the Creator can make anything better than the worlds and everything inside.

No, 'we' don't know that. We don't even 'know' it needs a 'one' at all. The signs, which for sake of argument I'll agree are there, are interpreted according to cultural conditioning, not necessarily according to what they are. Hence someone brought up as a muslim will see them as the signs of Allah. Someone brought up with another tradition will interpret them as something completely different.

The 'subtle' argument as some sort of test just doesn't cut it for me. It just seems a pretty feeble excuse as to why what really should be obvious if God is as Jews/Christians/muslims perceive Him to be is nothing of the sort. It just comes down to the 'signs' only being obvious to those who want to see them - whether they are actually there or not.

[- Qatada -]

Hi Trumble.


You ignored my other point's regarding the fact that there is actually a Creator. It's way more obvious that there is a Creator who made everything, who made the whole world and everything inside of it, yet you find it shocking if i said that the chair your sitting on was made by itself.


If you find it so hard to believe that there isn't any Creator because you can't see Him. Realise that emotion's can't be seen either, but the tears of sadness show, the sign's of Allaah show only when a person experiences the actual emotion, similarly when the person reflects on everything around him/her - they see the sign's of Allaah Almighty.


The fact that there is a Creator is much more easier to understand than believing that there isn't a Creator whatsoever. It goes against logic. And this is why the majority of the world believes in this, most just differ on how He should be worshipped, or not.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

[lavikor201]

All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way.

All three? Jews believe in a very different concept then what you think his hell and there is no burning. Righteous non-Jews can go to heaven.

[Avicenna]

All three? Jews believe in a very different concept then what you think his hell and there is no burning. Righteous non-Jews can go to heaven.

Actually, Judaism is the main culprit. If you dont believe in the monotheistic god Yahweh, Hashem, Eloheim etc. , the you're screwed.

[Joe98]

If you find it so hard to believe that there isn't any Creator because you can't see Him.

That is not the reason.

[Avicenna]

That is not the reason.

There isnt any.

[Trumble]

similarly when the person reflects on everything around him/her - they see the sign's of Allaah Almighty.

No, they see signs of what they expect or want to see, which may or may not be Allaah as muslims perceive Him to be... mainly depending on whether the person doing the reflecting is a muslim(Christian/Jew) or not.

The fact that there is a Creator is much more easier to understand than believing that there isn't a Creator whatsoever. It goes against logic. And this is why the majority of the world believes in this, most just differ on how He should be worshipped, or not.

I am quite happy to accept, for sake of argument at least, that there is/was a Creator. Although I'd be interested to see that 'logic' set out.. the 'chair' (or watch, as it more traditionally is) argument is a very old chestnut and not logical proof of anything. All that aside, the point at issue is not whether the Creator should be worshipped, it is why He requires worship which must be assumed if hell is the inevitable consequence of not doing so.

[Joe98]

Age old questions........ to be answered upon our incumbent death.............

Except of course to those billions of religious people who believe they already know the answer.

[Avicenna]

Except of course to those billions of religious people who believe they already know the answer.

Plus the milions of atheists who think they know the answer as well.

[*charisma*]

All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile? Why do humans have to believe in God? Why would I go to hell if I rationally cannot feel His presence?

You don't have to believe in God. Neither are there scientific facts to prove that there is a God, its purely a faith.

Let me speak hypothetically. If there were a God, would you expect him to forgive you for not believing in Him? To you He never existed, all of a sudden you're going to want to be forgiven because you were ignorant of what faith was or how to believe? That is very unfair for everyone.

Faith, especially the faith of Islam is something for EVERYONE. It's for the blind because they cannot see, so whether you can prove there is a God or not to a seeing person, in the end they still have to use faith. It's for the young, because it's easier for them to believe there is a God and grow with morals and values than if they believed there was no God and lived a corrupt life. It's for the old because it's never modernized, they can relate with everyone else of all ages. It's for the mentally retarded, mothers, fathers, women, men, infants, teenagers, children, blacks, whites, latinos, asians..I can go on in explicate details with different examples, but you get the point.

Those who don't believe in a deity, do mostly because there aren't hard core proofs/evidences. However, think back 1400 years ago or even before then, if everything in the Quran had direct proofs that a human wouldn't have possibly known about, how many of them would've believed in it?

If it said in the Quran that water was made up of H2O, and water will be found on Mars, so on and so forth, I can about gaurantee that no one will undertand what they were reading and it would be another corrupted and changed religion to suit the lives of those in that time IF people even agreed to believe in it.

I find it weird how you would ask about the punishments of those who don't believe, rather than the rewards of those who would believe. Why would you want to be amongst the believers and be rewarded just like them, when you were the one pushing yourself as much as you could away from what their beliefs were?

regards,

[جوري]

Except of course to those billions of religious people who believe they already know the answer.

Yes! we BELIEVE we know the answers...... to us it is to be confirmed upon death and hopefully we will rejoice eternally in the Gardens of bliss........ for others who didn't prepare...... a surprise, a moot point, and the answer one way or the other......... as Moses (PBUH) stated, all foolishness will be expiated with death.......... sort of like the teacher who warned you all semester of your surprise quiz and some students called it bluff, as they showed up every day and there was no test....... one day, end of term comes as time never stands still for laughter and play and idle joys........and those who weren't prepared FAIL......... and miserably........ unfortunately there is no surmising this failure......... there are NO DO OVERS once it is over it is over!

[Woodrow]

It seems difficult for some people to believe that there are consequences for not believing in Allah(swt) God(swt). Do those same people believe there is no consequences for driving 80 miles per hour in a 30MPH zone, just because they did not see the speed sign?

[Joe98]

"Way of Life - Secret"

Until you change that you're comments have no meaning.

[جوري]

Until you change that you're comments have no meaning.

The same for your "you're comments"? :rollseyes

[Joe98]

Do those same people believe there is no consequences for driving 80 miles per hour in a 30MPH zone, just because they did not see the speed sign?

I already follow the road rules. It works like this: I drive within the speed limit. The limit is based on common sense for that stretch of road. And everybody is safe.

Religion invents some other road rule which is not based on common sense. So no, I didn't see the religious sign.

[Woodrow]

I already follow the road rules. It works like this: I drive within the speed limit.
The limit is based on common sense for that stretch of road. And everybody is safe.

Religion invents some other road rule which is not based on common sense. So no, I didn't see the religious sign.

All depends on perspective.

I already follow the Qur'anic rules. It works like this: I live within the limit.
The limit is based on common sense for this life. And everybody is safe.



You and I have our own opinions and our own reasons, I suspect that we will both continue to each view other as having misguided opinions.

Fortunatly we have enough sense to express our differences without name calling.

[starfortress]

Most of human believe in something only base on a logical explanation.Unfortunately, today many of the "smartest" people of this world deny the existence of God,but still many on this world will believe the god existance after they fall to illness or had a great difficulty in their life,i mean something that could make they to think out of their narrow mind,beyond the logical and rational thinking.Then they will know there is a greater power out there.

I give an examples,how come some good looking man will fall in love with someone who doesn't have it.How come 300 Muslims defeating the over 1000 Quraish in Badr War.How come a man still want to marry his HIV carrier fiance.What kinds of thinking could drive this to happen,thats are the same feeling and thinking we feel in beleiving in God.There is no logical explanation can be given.Off course that was a greatest challenge for them who want to be the believer in other word the submitters(Muslims)

In my opinion by nature all humans who have a relief,angry,love,grateful and many other types of feeling should also have the kind of feeling in believing in God.Unfortunately all the normal person already having that feelings,only arrogance,ignorance and ego makes them still didn't want to believe in God.They claimed only to think and act base on rational and logical judgement,but they still do the irrational action like a man who sacrifices his life, health, or wealth to the attainment of his love for something.

No one want to force the unbelievers to postrate toward God,we only carry on the mesage that given to us,the rest lying at their hand,with the thinking capacity they have and the sign in front of them it should be clear.The strength of Islam as a philosophy and as a way of life is that it does not separate humans material life from spiritual life, and that it seeks a balance between the two dimensions,if someone really want to know god existance he/she must to start thinking in both way.

The problem happen when many smart person:giggling: try to reduce human thinking capacity to the lower point.Reduced merely to the level of Psychical and material existence, Man becomes a machine, or a mere animal at best.But think of a machine that rebels against being a machine or of an animal that refuses to be an animal. That is what man is! What is it that makes him rebellious, angry, disappointed, frightened or hopeful? What is his dimension that gives him his imagination, his artistic genius, his creative urge? Why does he have nightmares and sweet dreams?Can someone who dont believe in god give the answer?:rollseyes

"Who created me, and it is He Who guides me;

"Who gives me food and drink,

"And when I am ill, it is He Who cures me;

"Who will cause me to die, and then to life (again);

"And who, I hope, will forgive me my faults on the day of Judgment.

"O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous;

Quran (26:78-83)

[S]Happy Eid Fitr to all Muslims.[/S]

[- Qatada -]

No, they see signs of what they expect or want to see, which may or may not be Allaah as muslims perceive Him to be... mainly depending on whether the person doing the reflecting is a muslim(Christian/Jew) or not.

It doesn't depend on what religion you follow, nearly every religion believes in a Creator, no matter what they call Him, whether it's Allaah, God, Dios, Dieu etc. They know that it was this Creator who made everything, even agnostics realise this. The main difference like i said before was that they differ on how He should be worshipped, or if He should be worshipped Alone or not.

I am quite happy to accept, for sake of argument at least, that there is/was a Creator. Although I'd be interested to see that 'logic' set out.. the 'chair' (or watch, as it more traditionally is) argument is a very old chestnut and not logical proof of anything. All that aside, the point at issue is not whether the Creator should be worshipped, it is why He requires worship which must be assumed if hell is the inevitable consequence of not doing so.

The issue is why He created us, and that is so we worship Him, Almighty.

Realising that someone can make something is much easier than believing that no-one made the thing at all.

If a person can't believe that simple fact, then they are the one's going against logic because you don't have to see how something is made to believe that it was made by someone.



The consequence of not worshipping the Creator is that the person will end up in hellfire. The reason for this is because the person is rejecting all the blessings that Allaah has bestowed upon that person. One of the root words of kufr/disbelief is to be ungrateful.


If you feel that you earn all the money you got, imagine you never had your health, imagine you were blind. Imagine you had no food, and every single seed the farmer sowed - the fruit never grew, and Allaah withheld the rain from the clouds.

Who would get you food, water? Would you be able to survive, and for how long?


But instead, Allaah allow's us to dwell in this world to reflect, and contemplate on the creation. Why don't you travel in the lands and ask yourself if all this was created by itself?


Ask yourself, what is death. Why do the best of people, who have the most wealth die? Why do the most evil among the people die? No matter what they had in this world - they lose it anyway, so striving for this world only causes sadness doesn't it? If Allaah can create us once, isn't it easy for Him to bring us back to life again?

Isn't everyone responsible for their actions? This is the reason for the day of judgement.



Allaah Almighty creates laws for the benefit of mankind, worshipping doesn't always just mean praying or fasting, but the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

'The best among you in Islam are those with the best manners, so long as they develop a sense of understanding.' " (Bukhari #286)

If you feel that islamic law has always been evil, and against people of other faiths, try looking at the effect it had on people once the muslims were in authority:

http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


People who desire this world, and strive for this world only - they will die, and people like Hitler won't get away from their crimes. The one's who obey their Creator will also be recompensed for what they did. Every soul will bear it's own burden and no-one will be treated unjustly, this has been the same message from all the messengers of Allaah.

Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses-

And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?-

Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another;

That man can have nothing but what he strives for

That (the fruit of) his striving will soon come in sight:


Then will he be rewarded with a reward complete;

That to thy Lord is the final Goal;

That it is He Who granteth Laughter and Tears;

That it is He Who granteth Death and Life;



That He did create in pairs,- male and female,

From a seed when lodged (in its place);

That He hath promised a Second Creation (Raising of the Dead);

That it is He Who giveth wealth and satisfaction;


(Qur'an Surah Najm 53: 36-48)

Allaah Almighty know's best.



anyway, like the aussies say, g'day mate! :p [just felt like sayin that lol] :)



Peace.

[duskiness]

The association of that sensed presence with the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God is not essential, however; its just associated with that by followers of those religions because its either the only concept they have, or the only one they choose to acknowledge. A 'New Age' type, for example, or a Taoist, would associate that perception with something completely different. The original question, therefore, stands as a good one. Even if the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God exists, why 'eternal d*mnation' just because you don't believe in that specific concept of God?

I'm not sure if you should draw draw this lines so sharply. Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition of speaking of God is really huge.
There is via negativa
There was Meister Eckhart, who even for Buddhist sounds like a buddhist. (God as void/nothingness)
In some Chinese translation Logos it changed into Tao:

In the beginning was the Tao, and the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not comprehended it.... . The true Light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world knew Him not. He came to His own, and His own received Him not. But to all who received Him, He gave power to become children of God, who were born... of God. And the Tao became flesh and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His glory.

As for hell/salvation: i hope that those who reject christianity (what i think in many cases is just christians fault) and even God follow that " true Light that enlightens every man was coming into the world."

Whoever loves his brother lives in the light

(1john 2;10) and

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love

(1john4; 7-8). My fellow Christians may accuse me of "watering down" Gospel. And I'm probably doing it. So putting scriptures aside, I trust that God has his ways of guiding you, even if your mind rejects idea of "God". I just trust that He want "hurt" you in th end

[Ninth_Scribe]

All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile? Why do humans have to believe in God? Why would I go to hell if I rationally cannot feel His presence?

Let me put it another way: Deny creation and you become in conflict with yourself... because you are a creation. Is that not Hell?

Regardless of the variety of traditions used to express this principle - the principle itself does not change.

Ninth Scribe

[snakelegs]

All three? Jews believe in a very different concept then what you think his hell and there is no burning. Righteous non-Jews can go to heaven.

good point. would it be fair to say that judaism places much more importance on this world, than it does the next?

[mas]

i will tell u a little story about it
well one time this guy was mulism , he left to the uk for like 5 years then he came back . he told his people that he dont believe in god . anyways the imam comes and slap him in the face
he was like did u feel
GUY:yes
did u see the pain
he was like no
so basically u could feel god but u cant see him
im just telling u the story to just think about
salam

[Ninth_Scribe]

i will tell u a little story about it
well one time this guy was mulism , he left to the uk for like 5 years then he came back . he told his people that he dont believe in god . anyways the imam comes and slap him in the face
he was like did u feel
GUY:yes
did u see the pain
he was like no
so basically u could feel god but u cant see him
im just telling u the story to just think about
salam

That was a great story! Thank you for sharing it :)

Ninth Scribe

[Umar001]

Isnt it haram to slap in the face?

[Pygoscelis]

It is my belief that the threat of heall and promise of heaven are only as effective as the belief in them. So this threat and promise are useful to keep believers from questioning but useless to bring in new converts.

If you don't believe hell exists, being told you will go there unless you change your belief is just going to leave you wondering...

[Malaikah]

Yeh thats true- God only helps those who want help. And those who want help will appreciate having a strong driving force to do good and abstain from evil, namely the threat of hell and the promise of paradise.

A disbeliever doesnt believe in hell. But that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

So.. what is your point here exactly? :?

[جوري]

This thread is very similar to this one
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...l-forever.html

I believe many have answered what religion entails to them outside the boundries of reward and punishment.....You are right only in the sense that ... religion probably has no value unless you as a person give it value..... not loaning it credence doesn't however mean that it isn't an integral part of humanity, or that it is unnecessary-- a desert rat might be able to concentrate water and not need it as much or at all, but it doesn't mean that it isn't the essence of life and a necessary sustenance to the rest of creation!......

peace!

[syilla]

Yeh thats true- God only helps those who want help. And those who want help will appreciate having a strong driving force to do good and abstain from evil, namely the threat of hell and the promise of paradise.

A disbeliever doesnt believe in hell. But it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

:thumbs_up

[Ali_slave of Allah]

i think he was telling a story

[north_malaysian]

So God creates humans to worship Him? Does he need an ego stroke?

Yeah... because human have a tendency to forget him...

[north_malaysian]

Isnt it haram to slap in the face?

I think there is a hadith on it....

[snakelegs]

It is my belief that the threat of heall and promise of heaven are only as effective as the belief in them. So this threat and promise are useful to keep believers from questioning but useless to bring in new converts.

If you don't believe hell exists, being told you will go there unless you change your belief is just going to leave you wondering... [removed end of quote].

many ideas - political and religious - are promoted by causing fear among the targeted "audience".
i would agree with your comment above, except the sadomasochist part. people are easily manipulated thru fear - fear of hell, fear of terrorism, etc. etc. it is used to sell a variety of things besides ideas - life insurance comes to mind, a whole line of products, etc. etc.

[snakelegs]

A disbeliever doesnt believe in hell. But it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

i agree.

[Umar001]

It is my belief that the threat of heall and promise of heaven are only as effective as the belief in them. So this threat and promise are useful to keep believers from questioning but useless to bring in new converts.

If you don't believe hell exists, being told you will go there unless you change your belief is just going to leave you wondering... [removed end of quote]

I have a similar problem with a friend who tells me 'Look man without Jesus you gonna burn for real I aint playing'

And am like, ok but I could tell you the same bout islam and a hindu the same about Hinduism or what ever.

And he just says 'LOok man for real, forget that, I dont want you to go hell man'

So I can see the problem that would arise if a Muslim went up to an athiest and told him G-d is gonna put you in hell, and the athiest would just think, there is no G-d and No hell!

[glo]

I have a similar problem with a friend who tells me 'Look man without Jesus you gonna burn for real I aint playing'

And am like, ok but I could tell you the same bout islam and a hindu the same about Hinduism or what ever.

And he just says 'LOok man for real, forget that, I dont want you to go hell man'

So I can see the problem that would arise if a Muslim went up to an athiest and told him G-d is gonna put you in hell, and the athiest would just think, there is no G-d and No hell!

You make a good point, Isa!

We all have our own perception of what hell may be like ... based on the teachings of our religion.
But there is more to choosing your faith than just being terrified of hell - otherwise everybody would flock to the religion which describes hell to be the most terrible in the most graphical detail (whichever religion that may be)

By the end of the day we all have our personal reasons why we believe what we believe ... and none of us knows for sure if we were right until the time of our death.
We can only follow God in the best way we know!

Peace :)

[Umar001]

You make a good point, Isa!

We all have our own perception of what hell may be like ... based on the teachings of our religion.
But there is more to choosing your faith than just being terrified of hell - otherwise everybody would flock to the religion which describes hell to be the most terrible in the most graphical detail (whichever religion that may be)
Peace :)

Glad we agree about some stuff then lol

[glo]

Glad we agree about some stuff then lol

It's a miracle!!! :D :D :D

Peace to you, Isa

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Hi glo,

and none of us knows for sure if we were right until the time of our death.

I am positive you will disagree with me, but we muslims know what exactly happens to us after death. It is only a matter of time before one realizes it, dont you think? And you will agree that a realization after death is a realization too late?

And, wont it be too late then, to find out what was the Truth after dying? To die, and realize that one was on the wrong path all his life? To find out, that he not only lost this world, but lost the good in the hereafter as well? That would be a great loss! To be shown Paradise and then be told, "This is where you would have been had you not done such and such"? Imagine the feeling of regret!

Peace!

[جوري]

Every soul shall have regrets....
If the soul were good... it will regret not having done better to be more elevated in the hereafter....
if the soul were bad... well what a horrible insurmountable truth that is..... they will beg a second chance.... but... there is only one chance....... albiet a long one at time for some... still some don't reflect......

[Umar001]

Hi glo,



I am positive you will disagree with me, but we muslims know what exactly happens to us after death. It is only a matter of time before one realizes it, dont you think? And you will agree that a realization after death is a realization too late?

And, wont it be too late then, to find out what was the Truth after dying? To die, and realize that one was on the wrong path all his life? To find out, that he not only lost this world, but lost the good in the hereafter as well? That would be a great loss! To be shown Paradise and then be told, "This is where you would have been had you not done such and such"? Imagine the feeling of regret!

Peace!

Lol this is why I only quoted what I quote with regards to me and Glo's agreement.

And Peace be upon u too Glo :p

[glo]

Hi glo,
I am positive you will disagree with me, but we muslims know what exactly happens to us after death. It is only a matter of time before one realizes it, dont you think? And you will agree that a realization after death is a realization too late?

You are right, Ahmed - I do disagree. :giggling:

Let me rephrase your statement to 'we muslims believe we know what exactly happens to us after death'.
Same as we Christians/Buddhists/Hindus/Jews etc believe we know what happens after death ...

The reason we all believe to know, is that we believe certain religious teachings.
Convinced as I am that my belief is right, I cannot claim to know. And anybody who claims otherwise is sadly mistaken! :?

Only God knows!

Peace

Isa, put your tongue away! Cheeky! tut tut

[- Qatada -]

I feel that the theme of hell/paradise has always been the same throughout history, the two extremes - the fire, and eternal joy. and this has been the theme throughout time. Therefore i feel that the people must have got it from somewhere, and because this idea is so ancient - it is a sign that it came from the oldest religion [which is obviously islaam - submission the Creator - Allaah alone] (starting from the first human Adam and his wife Hawwa [Eve] (peace be upon them.) (even though i know that people may argue otherwise.)


I also feel that the idea of hellfire and paradise is really a reflection of this world. We believe in two extremes of the hereafter, and this world is a mixture of the two. For instance we have pleasure in this world, and we also have pain in this world. The pain is a taster of the eternal punishment which occurs in the hereafter, and the pleasure is similarly a taster of the eternal pleasure of the hereafter. So we have something to reflect on while dwelling in this world, for the little time we spend here.


If every single human dies in this world, then this explains that there has to be some form of next level, and everything that we do isn't created in vain. We will be judged on our actions. It also explains that the Creator never created us for nothing, but it was for a reason, and as muslims - we know it is to worship/obey Him Alone. Everything that Allaah has created, it will return back to Him, and that is the explanation of death.




The argument others use is that people use religion as a form of dictating people and forcing them to obey them, otherwise they will go to hellfire. But we know that islaam is the total opposite, if we see a leader who is disobeying Allaah Almighty and His messenger - in the sense that their not applying the islamic law, then we may not have to obey them.

If anyone feel's that the law revealed to the Messenger of Allaah - Muhammad (peace be upon him) was fake, then they have to realise that even he (peace be upon him) never abused his power because he lived the most poorest of lives till death (yet he was the ruler of arabia), whereas a person who strives for this world would be running after all the wealth and power they could get hold of before death overcame them.



Paradise is a form of positive reinforcement to the ones who worship their Creator alone and do good deeds, whereas those who reject the fact that their Creator should be worshipped alone, and instead follow their lusts and desires, they will return to their Creator, Allaah too. Hellfire is their punishment, and the trials a person goes through in this world may be a form of negative reinforcement (so they may return back to their Creator for help).. if man is sincere, Allaah will guide him/her to the truth.




Allaah Almighty know's best.



Peace.

[Woodrow]

It is my belief that the threat of heall and promise of heaven are only as effective as the belief in them. So this threat and promise are useful to keep believers from questioning but useless to bring in new converts.

If you don't believe hell exists, being told you will go there unless you change your belief is just going to leave you wondering...

Fear of Hell is a poor reason to accept a religion. I choose Islam because I believe it to be the true way to express Love of Allah(swt). I believe in the toal submission to him and accept whatever fate awaits me. I do not worship Him out of fear, I worship him for the blessings of his creations. I worship him for his limitless goodness and fairness.

I doubt very much that the threat of Hell is the bond that holds any person to a belief of God(swt). It is not even a threat, it is simply verification that God(swt) is all just and we shall be rewarded in accordance with our deeds. Sort of like having a job. Our job is to live this life, our pay check will be eternity. Some people work at sub-minimal value and will be paid what they earn. Not a punishment, simply fair pay for the work done.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Convinced as I am that my belief is right, I cannot claim to know. And anybody who claims otherwise is sadly mistaken!

But I am positive that what I believe is true! There is a difference.

Only God knows!

That implys that you are not secure in your beliefs to believe something and then say that God only knows. Dont get me wrong, God is the only One that knows all. But to be convinced about something and then state something that implys insecurity shows that you are not fully convinced.

[*charisma*]

Hey,

It is my belief that the threat of heall and promise of heaven are only as effective as the belief in them. So this threat and promise are useful to keep believers from questioning but useless to bring in new converts.

If you don't believe hell exists, being told you will go there unless you change your belief is just going to leave you wondering...

What I find interesting is that in Islam we are also told that most of us will be going to hell as well, but we won't remain there forever. Even with this there are still many nonmuslims converting. So in Islam, hell is not made just to be a 'threat' it is also a promise for every sinner whether muslim or nonmuslim, just as paradise is made to be a reward for every believer. There are justifications for each.

As creations, our Creator made it our right to know where we will end up in the end and at least what kind of rewards/punishments we will recieve so that we won't be oblivious on the day of judgement with excuses such as, "well we didn't know what we would be getting ourselves into, its not our fault, you didn't tell us." It's a warning.

Without some type of punishment that will be promised, will be living life on earth to its "fullest" with other intentions than for the intention of pleasing their Lord (partying, drinking, sex, etc.) without many limits in life.

Paradise and Hell, I would say, are probably equally mentioned in Islam. Both are extremes that we've never witnessed before. One is a beautiful, exotic, unimaginable reward, and the other is a terrible, painful, as well as unimaginable punishment.

If you're interested about the descriptions of hell and paradise check these links out:

http://www.islamicboard.com/akhira-h...ise-islam.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/akhira-h...ell-islam.html

peace

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum, Sister.

What I find interesting is that in Islam we are also told that most of us will be going to hell as well,

I'm just wondering where is this stated? I haven't been told this, sounds scary :offended:

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

well yea if ur a Muslim,you sin repeatedly, and do not repent you will go to hell, but not permanently because u hadnt left the fold of Islam.

[Woodrow]

Hey,



What I find interesting is that in Islam we are also told that most of us will be going to hell as well, but we won't remain there forever. Even with this there are still many nonmuslims converting. So in Islam, hell is not made just to be a 'threat' it is also a promise for every sinner whether muslim or nonmuslim, just as paradise is made to be a reward for every believer. There are justifications for each.

As creations, our Creator made it our right to know where we will end up in the end and at least what kind of rewards/punishments we will recieve so that we won't be oblivious on the day of judgement with excuses such as, "well we didn't know what we would be getting ourselves into, its not our fault, you didn't tell us." It's a warning.

Without some type of punishment that will be promised, will be living life on earth to its "fullest" with other intentions than for the intention of pleasing their Lord (partying, drinking, sex, etc.) without many limits in life.

Paradise and Hell, I would say, are probably equally mentioned in Islam. Both are extremes that we've never witnessed before. One is a beautiful, exotic, unimaginable reward, and the other is a terrible, painful, as well as unimaginable punishment.

If you're interested about the descriptions of hell and paradise check these links out:

http://www.islamicboard.com/akhira-h...ise-islam.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/akhira-h...ell-islam.html

peace

What I find interesting is that in Islam we are also told that most of us will be going to hell as well,

If I rcall what you are refering to is that Islam will divide into sect 72 I beleive and that only the followers of one will go to Heaven. But we are not told how many will be in each sect. Let us look at the extreme scenarios.

Suppose 71 of the sects have only one follower in each and the 72 nd has all reamining Muslims and that is the right sect. Or the opposite one sect only has one member and that is the correct one.

I don't believe we have any Idea as to what percentage of Muslims will find Heaven.

[snakelegs]

But I am positive that what I believe is true! There is a difference.



[/B]That implys that you are not secure in your beliefs to believe something and then say that God only knows. Dont get me wrong, God is the only One that knows all. But to be convinced about something and then state something that implys insecurity shows that you are not fully convinced.

i understand that you are positive -heart and soul- that what you believe is true, but you cannot "prove" it to any one who doesn't accept the basic premise that the qur'an is the word of god. same for other holy books.

[جوري]

If I rcall what you are refering to is that Islam will divide into sect 72 I beleive and that only the followers of one will go to Heaven. But we are not told how many will be in each sect. Let us look at the extreme scenarios.

Suppose 71 of the sects have only one follower in each and the 72 nd has all reamining Muslims and that is the right sect. Or the opposite one sect only has one member and that is the correct one.

I don't believe we have any Idea as to what percentage of Muslims will find Heaven.

We are not standing at 71 sects now though are we? I mean this is an evolving thing -- sheik Mecca stated he believes there are 44 right now.… Ahmedis are a fairly recent (late 19th century into the twentieth) so-called Muslims in truth instilled by the Brits to wreak havoc and allow for British colonization and to misguide the people... I believe as the world progresses even more freakish sects will be born calling themselves Muslims but aren't ... and as promised Knowledge will die with people of knowledge ... in a sense that is the only thing keeping sectarianism at bay ... unfortunately not for long -- G-D save us from all these tribulations...

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

56: 13. A multitude of those (foremost in the religion) will be from the first generations (who embraced Islam).
14. And a few of those (foremost) will be from the later time (generations).


56: 39. A multitude of those (on the Right Hand) will be from the first generation (who embraced Islam).
40. And a multitude of those (on the Right Hand) will be from the later times (generations).


:w:

[*charisma*]

I'm just wondering where is this stated? I haven't been told this, sounds scary

And there is none of you except he will come to it (to be exposed to the hell fire). This is upon your Lord an inevitability decreed. Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees. (19:71-72)

Allah will punish us for our sins, then we will be cleansed from them, afterwards we will meet in paradise inshallah. However, Allah is all-merciful subhanallah, so He could easily save us from the punishment of hell-fire if He wanted.

Also to add, we would be in the lowest level of hell, while the nonbelievers would be in the highest, so they will recieve more punishment. Still, one should repent while they are living in dunyaa, rather than wait till last minute and be punished by Allah.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[glo]

But I am positive that what I believe is true! There is a difference.

There is??? How so?
But I am absolutely positive that what I believe is true! :rollseyes

You are mistaken, Ahmed. Using superlatives to describe the level of your belief doesn't make it any better, bigger or truer!

[/B]That implys that you are not secure in your beliefs to believe something and then say that God only knows. Dont get me wrong, God is the only One that knows all. But to be convinced about something and then state something that implys insecurity shows that you are not fully convinced.

Please don't assume to know the sincerity and strength of my faith, Ahmed.

It doesn't imply that my belief is not secure at all!
It states that I believe God to be all-knowing and wise. I assume you may share that belief with me. :)

May God bless you abundantly :)

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum

If I rcall what you are refering to is that Islam will divide into sect 72 I beleive and that only the followers of one will go to Heaven. But we are not told how many will be in each sect. Let us look at the extreme scenarios.

Suppose 71 of the sects have only one follower in each and the 72 nd has all reamining Muslims and that is the right sect. Or the opposite one sect only has one member and that is the correct one.

I don't believe we have any Idea as to what percentage of Muslims will find Heaven.

ekhi, i was referring to the sinners, not quite those who are parts of sects. I meant that most of us will have a taste of hell-fire, but it won't be our eternal abode. I believe the only ones that will be granted paradise without trial are martyrs, and those who are too young or insane to be accountable. I will get some proof for that inshallah.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[*charisma*]

Hey,

i understand that you are positive -heart and soul- that what you believe is true, but you cannot "prove" it to any one who doesn't accept the basic premise that the qur'an is the word of god. same for other holy books.

The whole point of faith is to believe in what you don't see. Everyone is capable of having faith in something, religious-related or not. God can't be proven when it comes to science, because science is physical, that's it (compared to religion where it is emotional, mental, physical, and spiritual).

Even so, religion is not supposed to prove science, but the Quran has many scientific facts that couldn'tve been proven long ago anyways. If there were hard-core evidence with very explicate details in the time the Quran was revealed, many would reject Islam all together because NO ONE would understand what they were reading or what its on about.

YOu can't contradict religion with science because these are two different entities, but you can believe in both!

Even science can't prove anything sometimes, nor can everyone understand it no matter how logical it is. Religion is for everyone to understand and is easily understandable with logic.

peace

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

And there is none of you except he will come to it (to be exposed to the hell fire). This is upon your Lord an inevitability decreed. Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees. (19:71-72)
w'salaam

:sl:

Yeah, thats true. This is what Ibn Kathir said regarding these verses:

Everyone will be brought to Hell, then the Righteous will be saved

Ibn Jarir reported from `Abdullah that he said concerning Allah's statement,

﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾

(There is not one of you but will pass over it.) "The bridge over Hell is like the sharp edge of a sword. The first group to cross it will pass like a flash of lightning. The second group will pass like the wind. The third group will pass like the fastest horse. The fourth group will pass like the fastest cow. Then, the rest will pass while the angels will be saying, `O Allah save them, save them.' '' This narration has supporting narrations similar to it from the Prophet in the Two Sahihs and other collections as well. These narrations have been related by Anas, Abu Sa`id, Abu Hurayrah, Jabir and other Companions, may Allah be pleased with them all. Ahmad also recorded that Umm Mubashshar, the wife of Zayd bin Harithah, said, "The Messenger of Allah was in the house of Hafsah when he said,

«لَا يَدْخُلُ النَّارَ أَحَدٌ شَهِدَ بَدْرًا وَالْحُدَيْبِيَّة»

(No one who was present at the battles of Badr and Hudaybiyyah (of the Muslims) will enter into the Hellfire.) Then, Hafsah said, "Doesn't Allah say,

﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾

(There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); ) The Messenger of Allah replied by reciting,

﴿ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ﴾

(Then We shall save those who had Taqwa.) In the Two Sahihs there is a Hadith reported from Az-Zuhri, from Sa`id from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allah said,

«لَا يَمُوتُ لِأَحَدٍ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ ثَلَاثَةٌ مِنَ الْوَلَدِ تَمَسُّهُ النَّارُ إِلَّا تَحِلَّةَ الْقَسَم»

(No one of the Muslims who has had three children, who all died, will be touched by the Hellfire, except for an oath that must be fulfilled.) `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam commented on Allah's statement,

﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾

(There is not one of you but will pass over it; ) "The passing of the Muslims (over the Hellfire) means their passing over a bridge that is over it. But the passing of the idolators over the Hellfire refers to their admission to the Fire.'' As-Suddi reported from Murrah, from Ibn Mas`ud, that he said concerning Allah's statement,

﴿كَانَ عَلَى رَبِّكَ حَتْماً مَّقْضِيّاً﴾

(this is with your Lord; a Hatman decree.) "An oath that must be fulfilled.'' Mujahid said, "Hatman means preordainment.'' Ibn Jurayj said the same. Concerning Allah's statement,

﴿ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ﴾

(Then We shall save those who had Taqwa. ) When all of the creatures passed over the Hellfire, and those disbelievers and the disobedient people who are destined to fall into it because of their disobedience, Allah will save the believers and the righteous people from it because of their deeds. Therefore, their passing over the bridge and their speed will be based upon their deeds that they did in this life. Then, the believers who performed major sins will be allowed intercession. The angels, the Prophets and the believers will all intercede. Thus, a large number of the sinners will be allowed to come out of Hell. The fire will have devoured much of their bodies, except the places of prostration on their faces. Their removal from the Hellfire will be due to the faith in their hearts. The first to come out will be he who has the weight of a Dinar of faith in his heart. Then, whoever has the next least amount after him. Then, whoever is next to that after him, and so forth. This will continue until the one who has the tiniest hint of faith in his heart, equal to the weight of an atom. Then, Allah will take out of the Fire whoever said "La ilaha illallah,'' even one day of his entire life, even if he never performed any good deed. After this, no one will remain in the Hellfire, except those it is obligatory upon to remain in the Hellfire forever. This has been reported in many authentic Hadiths from the Messenger of Allah . This is why Allah says,

﴿ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ وَّنَذَرُ الظَّـلِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيّاً ﴾

(Then We shall save those who had Taqwa. And We shall leave the wrongdoers in it, Jithyya.)

﴿وَإِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَـتُنَا بِيِّنَـتٍ قَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لِلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ أَىُّ الْفَرِيقَيْنِ خَيْرٌ مَّقَاماً وَأَحْسَنُ نَدِيّاً - وَكَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا قَبْلَهُمْ مِّن قَرْنٍ هُمْ أَحْسَنُ أَثَاثاً وَرِءْياً ﴾

(73. And when Our clear Ayat are recited to them, those who disbelieve say to those who believe: "Which of the two groups has the best dwellings and the finest Nadiyyan'') (74. And how many a generation have We destroyed before them, who were better in wealth, goods and outward appearance)

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah, Sister Charisma.

Thank you for your patience with me :)

And there is none of you except he will come to it (to be exposed to the hell fire). This is upon your Lord an inevitability decreed. Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees. (19:71-72)

Allah will punish us for our sins, then we will be cleansed from them, afterwards we will meet in paradise inshallah. However, Allah is all-merciful subhanallah, so He could easily save us from the punishment of hell-fire if He wanted.

Also to add, we would be in the lowest level of hell, while the nonbelievers would be in the highest, so they will recieve more punishment. Still, one should repent while they are living in dunyaa, rather than wait till last minute and be punished by Allah.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

I would first just like to show the slight, slight difference in translation:

019.071
YUSUFALI: Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.
PICKTHAL: There is not one of you but shall approach it. That is a fixed ordinance of thy Lord.
SHAKIR: And there is not one of you but shall come to it; this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord.

Source

Under the Title of Everyone will be brought to Hell, then the Righteous will be saved In Tafsir Ibn Kathir it says:

Ibn Jarir reported from `Abdullah that he said concerning Allah's statement,


﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾


(There is not one of you but will pass over it.) "The bridge over Hell is like the sharp edge of a sword. The first group to cross it will pass like a flash of lightning. The second group will pass like the wind. The third group will pass like the fastest horse. The fourth group will pass like the fastest cow. Then, the rest will pass while the angels will be saying, `O Allah save them, save them.' '' This narration has supporting narrations similar to it from the Prophet in the Two Sahihs and other collections as well. These narrations have been related by Anas, Abu Sa`id, Abu Hurayrah, Jabir and other Companions, may Allah be pleased with them all. Ahmad also recorded that Umm Mubashshar, the wife of Zayd bin Harithah, said, "The Messenger of Allah was in the house of Hafsah when he said,


«لَا يَدْخُلُ النَّارَ أَحَدٌ شَهِدَ بَدْرًا وَالْحُدَيْبِيَّة»


(No one who was present at the battles of Badr and Hudaybiyyah (of the Muslims) will enter into the Hellfire.) Then, Hafsah said, "Doesn't Allah say,


﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾


(There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell);) The Messenger of Allah replied by reciting,


﴿ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ﴾


(Then We shall save those who had Taqwa.) In the Two Sahihs there is a Hadith reported from Az-Zuhri, from Sa`id from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allah said,


«لَا يَمُوتُ لِأَحَدٍ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ ثَلَاثَةٌ مِنَ الْوَلَدِ تَمَسُّهُ النَّارُ إِلَّا تَحِلَّةَ الْقَسَم»


(No one of the Muslims who has had three children, who all died, will be touched by the Hellfire, except for an oath that must be fulfilled.) `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam commented on Allah's statement,


﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾


(There is not one of you but will pass over it;) "The passing of the Muslims (over the Hellfire) means their passing over a bridge that is over it. But the passing of the idolators over the Hellfire refers to their admission to the Fire.'' As-Suddi reported from Murrah, from Ibn Mas`ud, that he said concerning Allah's statement,


﴿كَانَ عَلَى رَبِّكَ حَتْماً مَّقْضِيّاً﴾


(this is with your Lord; a Hatman decree.) "An oath that must be fulfilled.'' Mujahid said, "Hatman means preordainment.'' Ibn Jurayj said the same. Concerning Allah's statement,


﴿ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ﴾


(Then We shall save those who had Taqwa. ) When all of the creatures passed over the Hellfire, and those disbelievers and the disobedient people who are destined to fall into it because of their disobedience, Allah will save the believers and the righteous people from it because of their deeds. Therefore, their passing over the bridge and their speed will be based upon their deeds that they did in this life. Then, the believers who performed major sins will be allowed intercession. The angels, the Prophets and the believers will all intercede. Thus, a large number of the sinners will be allowed to come out of Hell. The fire will have devoured much of their bodies, except the places of prostration on their faces. Their removal from the Hellfire will be due to the faith in their hearts. The first to come out will be he who has the weight of a Dinar of faith in his heart. Then, whoever has the next least amount after him. Then, whoever is next to that after him, and so forth. This will continue until the one who has the tiniest hint of faith in his heart, equal to the weight of an atom. Then, Allah will take out of the Fire whoever said "La ilaha illallah,'' even one day of his entire life, even if he never performed any good deed. After this, no one will remain in the Hellfire, except those it is obligatory upon to remain in the Hellfire forever. This has been reported in many authentic Hadiths from the Messenger of Allah . This is why Allah says,


﴿ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ وَّنَذَرُ الظَّـلِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيّاً ﴾


(Then We shall save those who had Taqwa. And We shall leave the wrongdoers in it, Jithyya.)


﴿وَإِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ ءَايَـتُنَا بِيِّنَـتٍ قَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ لِلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ أَىُّ الْفَرِيقَيْنِ خَيْرٌ مَّقَاماً وَأَحْسَنُ نَدِيّاً - وَكَمْ أَهْلَكْنَا قَبْلَهُمْ مِّن قَرْنٍ هُمْ أَحْسَنُ أَثَاثاً وَرِءْياً ﴾


(73. And when Our clear Ayat are recited to them, those who disbelieve say to those who believe: "Which of the two groups has the best dwellings and the finest Nadiyyan'') (74. And how many a generation have We destroyed before them, who were better in wealth, goods and outward appearance)

I think that should help.

Assalamu Aleykum, Eesa

EDIT The smiley faces in the quote are not mine, they just come up lol.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Assalamu Alaikum

I believe the only ones that will be granted paradise without trial are martyrs, and those who are too young or insane to be accountable. I will get some proof for that inshallah.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

:sl:

There are others too Alhamdullilah and may Allah make us among them. And the martyr is forgiven all his sins except debts that he may owe.

Muslim Book 020, Number 4649:

It has been reported on the authority of 'Amr b. al-'As that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: All the sins of a Shahid (martyr) are forgiven except debt.

Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 71, Number 606:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:


Allah's Apostle said, 'Nations were displayed before me; one or two prophets would pass by along with a few followers. A prophet would pass by accompanied by nobody. Then a big crowd of people passed in front of me and I asked, Who are they Are they my followers?" It was said, 'No. It is Moses and his followers It was said to me, 'Look at the horizon.'' Behold! There was a multitude of people filling the horizon. Then it was said to me, 'Look there and there about the stretching sky! Behold! There was a multitude filling the horizon,' It was said to me, 'This is your nation out of whom seventy thousand shall enter Paradise without reckoning.' "Then the Prophet entered his house without telling his companions who they (the 70,000) were. So the people started talking about the issue and said, "It is we who have believed in Allah and followed His Apostle; therefore those people are either ourselves or our children who are born m the Islamic era, for we were born in the Pre-lslamic Period of Ignorance.'' When the Prophet heard of that, he came out and said. "Those people are those who do not treat themselves with Ruqya, nor do they believe in bad or good omen (from birds etc.) nor do they get themselves branded (Cauterized). but they put their trust (only) in their Lord " On that 'Ukasha bin Muhsin said. "Am I one of them, O Allah's Apostle?' The Prophet said, "Yes." Then another person got up and said, "Am I one of them?" The Prophet said, 'Ukasha has anticipated you."

Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 314:

Narrated Sad bin 'Ubaida:
Abu Abdur-Rahman who was one of the supporters of Uthman said to Abu Talha who was one of the supporters of Ali, "I perfectly know what encouraged your leader (i.e. 'Ali) to shed blood. I heard him saying: Once the Prophet sent me and Az-Zubair saying, 'Proceed to such-and-such Ar-Roudah (place) where you will find a lady whom Hatib has given a letter. So when we arrived at Ar-Roudah, we requested the lady to hand over the letter to us. She said, 'Hatib has not given me any letter.' We said to her. 'Take out the letter or else we will strip off your clothes.' So she took it out of her braid. So the Prophet sent for Hatib, (who came) and said, 'Don't hurry in judging me, for, by Allah, I have not become a disbeliever, and my love to Islam is increasing. (The reason for writing this letter was) that there is none of your companions but has relatives in Mecca who look after their families and property, while I have nobody there, so I wanted to do them some favor (so that they might look after my family and property).' The Prophet believed him. 'Umar said, 'Allow me to chop off his (i.e. Hatib's) neck as he has done hypocrisy.' The Prophet said, (to 'Umar), 'Who knows, perhaps Allah has looked at the warriors of Badr and said (to them), 'Do whatever you like, for I have forgiven you.' " 'Abdur-Rahman added, "So this is what encouraged him (i.e. Ali)."

Then there are the Muhajirun that will come to Jannah 500 years earlier because they wont have to give Hisab because they have nothing to give Hisab about. The favor of Allah upon this Ummah is great indeed!

:w:

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum

I would first just like to show the slight, slight difference in translation:

019.071
YUSUFALI: Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.
PICKTHAL: There is not one of you but shall approach it. That is a fixed ordinance of thy Lord.
SHAKIR: And there is not one of you but shall come to it; this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord.

Barak Allahu feek for that ekhi.

There are others too Alhamdullilah and may Allah make us among them. And the martyr is forgiven all his sins except debts that he may owe.

ameen!
Jazak Allahu khair for those sources.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[snakelegs]

YOu can't contradict religion with science because these are two different entities, but you can believe in both!

Even science can't prove anything sometimes, nor can everyone understand it no matter how logical it is.

peace

i agree completely. god needs no "proof". sceience and religion are not in-compatible. they are simply 2 different systems.

[Umar001]

Assalamu Alaikum



Barak Allahu feek for that ekhi.


ameen!
Jazak Allahu khair for those sources.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

Wa Aleykum Salam Wa Rhametulah,

And May Allah reward you! Ameen.

[Pygoscelis]

So.. what is your point here exactly? :?

Well, my post was edited and it lost some its meaning due to the editing. I'll leave it at that out of respect to whoever edited it (I assume they have good reason)

[Pygoscelis]

Fear of Hell is a poor reason to accept a religion. I choose Islam because I believe it to be the true way to express Love of Allah(swt).

Yes, here you are re-iterating my point for me. People will not come to a religion because of a fear of hell, if they don't believe hell exists.

I doubt very much that the threat of Hell is the bond that holds any person to a belief of God(swt).

And here is where we disagree. I can not speak regarding Islam, as I have little of the religion and do not know many deconverts from it (the main reason why I'm here) but I do know many deconverts from Christianity and many of them have recounted their experiences to me of how they were initially afraid to question their beliefs because they would be punished by hellfire.

It is a real phenomenon in that religion. It would not suprise me if it also occurs in Islam, but again I'm no expert on deconversion from that religion.

[Woodrow]

Yes, here you are re-iterating my point for me. People will not come to a religion because of a fear of hell, if they don't believe hell exists.



And here is where we disagree. I can not speak regarding Islam, as I have little of the religion and do not know many deconverts from it (the main reason why I'm here) but I do know many deconverts from Christianity and many of them have recounted their experiences to me of how they were initially afraid to question their beliefs because they would be punished by hellfire.

It is a real phenomenon in that religion. It would not suprise me if it also occurs in Islam, but again I'm no expert on deconversion from that religion.

I doubt if many Muslims are Muslim out of fear of Hellfire. Remember Islam is simply the submission to God(swt) A Muslim is a person who submits to God(swt). That is all what the words mean. Our common bond is our submitting our lives to God(swt) We have no ordained clergy, we do not tithe to any church, we do not blindly accept any teachings of any living person, we accept full responsibility for all of our actions. We are content with the knowledge that we will be rewarded in accordance to our own individual deeds. we do not know if we will earn heaven or hellfire, all we know is that our love of Allah(swt) is the reason for our submission to him.

[*charisma*]

Hey,

but I do know many deconverts from Christianity and many of them have recounted their experiences to me of how they were initially afraid to question their beliefs because they would be punished by hellfire.

If they couldn't question their beliefs, then wouldn't it mean they were following it blindly?

I'm not sure if you're saying the reason for their deconversion is because the fear of hell, but if it was then wouldn't they still believe in hell anyways, whether they deconverted or not? I mean if they became athiests then it's like saying you're demolishing the existing of hell, (which you really aren't because its reason of your deconversion) and you just choose to disbelieve in it because you fear it.

peace

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

If you do not understand something, its a must that you ask so that u may learn and not follow blindly. Thats how it is in Islam. Your allowed to question, cuz we r told to seek knowledge.

[syilla]

if someone really fear of hell...and he/she really knows and feels how the hell is like...

i'm sure...that person will scared to even wake up from their sleep...

so...they can say they are fear of hell...but do they really afraid of the hell?
i doubt that...

well...that same goes to me...i said i'm afraid...but i still don't use my time effectively :rolleyes:

[Pygoscelis]

I'm not sure if you're saying the reason for their deconversion is because the fear of hell, but if it was then wouldn't they still believe in hell anyways, whether they deconverted or not? I mean if they became athiests then it's like saying you're demolishing the existing of hell, (which you really aren't because its reason of your deconversion) and you just choose to disbelieve in it because you fear it.

No, they didn't deconvert because of Hell. Quite to the contrary. Hell worked strongly AGAINST their deconversion. In many cases it slowed their deconversion down and they tell me of some of their Christian friends that may have deconverted had it not been for the threat of hell.

They were led to believe by their Christian leaders that they would risk going to hell by losing belief and therefore they did not want to even think about any doubt. They could not afford to.

I think it is similar to how you sometimes see in their believers the belief that "There exist no deconverts". They can not fathom the idea that somebody would leave their religion, because that would raise a doubt. Instead of admitting that somebody can be a deconvert they will claim that the person was never a true Christian to begin with. This is a Very common claim against deconverts and a very frustrating one for them.

[*charisma*]

Hey,

No, they didn't deconvert because of Hell. Quite to the contrary. Hell worked strongly AGAINST their deconversion. In many cases it slowed their deconversion down and they tell me of some of their Christian friends that may have deconverted had it not been for the threat of hell.

They were led to believe by their Christian leaders that they would risk going to hell by losing belief and therefore they did not want to even think about any doubt. They could not afford to.

ah, ok, thanks for the clarification.

I think it is similar to how you sometimes see in their believers the belief that "There exist no deconverts". They can not fathom the idea that somebody would leave their religion, because that would raise a doubt. Instead of admitting that somebody can be a deconvert they will claim that the person was never a true Christian to begin with. This is a Very common claim against deconverts and a very frustrating one for them.

I think there is some truth to that. Some aren't practicing their religion first off to begin with because they don't feel a connection with it. Others don't feel it clicks with them and search for a new religion that is more suitable or logical for their lifestyle..everyone is different. It depends on their way of thinking and how much of their religion they really know.

Many of the Christians and Catholics that I've met for example, barely know anything, or they'll only know the general teachings and don't bother learning more because it bores them and they believe in the end God will forgive them if they sincerely repent. Well that's only from my experiences with the nonmuslims.

peace

[Woodrow]

In my opinion most Christian religions are quite a bit stricter and more rigid than Islam is. Although my only personal experience with Christianity was as a Catholic. But some of the things that were found to be so strict was the combination of Biblical rules and Church law. Some examples as a kid.

the 5 daily prayers morning, bed time, and before each meal
the 40 day fast for lent and the intent to permentaly give up at least one item for all time not just for that lenten period, The daily mass at church mandatory for Sundays but, very strongly enforced for everyday,

Those were fairly easy and differ little from what I now practice. but then we had the mandatory Church laws

Weekly confession of our sins to the priest
one meal and no meat on fridays
Unpure thoughts seen as sins even if not acted upon
No self interpretation of the Bible, actually Bible reading as an individual was discouged back when I was a kid. The memorization of the prayers, Weekly attendence for CYO (Catholic Youth Organization), Memorization of the church litinies, Alter boy training, Daily recitation of the rosary, Plus many other rules.

I believe that what we see as todays rampant immorality among many Christians is a revolt against the centuries of restrictions. The rules are still there, but people are fed up with them and show it by violating all they were taught.

[SirZubair]

The fire of hell is like a Purifier for Muslims.

We will stay in the fire for some time, our sins will be removed, we will be purified and will enter heaven, insha'allah.

[- Qatada -]

The fire of hell is like a Purifier for Muslims.

We will stay in the fire for some time, our sins will be removed, we will be purified and will enter heaven, insha'allah.

Just like a blacksmith init :) Metals are burned; the good that comes out will be worth something and will escape the fire, whereas those that aren't worth anything will be thrown away to remain in the fire. Allaah Almighty know's best.


:salamext:

[Grace Seeker]

No one is forcing you to believe... Those of us who do.... have tons of other legitimate reasons for worship other than fear of hell's fire....... You are getting an infantile notion out of it simply because you are putting it in a very low common denominator........ not because that is all that religion entails.....If I were to put it in the very least... I'd say religion has set laws to govern mankind from moral and social degeneracy; and like any system including the sophisticated societal one, it is established on what it is you'll get out of it.......

Nicely put.

[Abdul Fattah]

No, they didn't deconvert because of Hell. Quite to the contrary. Hell worked strongly AGAINST their deconversion. In many cases it slowed their deconversion down and they tell me of some of their Christian friends that may have deconverted had it not been for the threat of hell.

If you allow me I would like to compare this with a rather simplistic example.
Let's say three blind man are about to walk into a wall. All three their sticks tell them there is a wall in front of them. the first one hesitates, but then decides not to follow his stick and just run along. The second says to the third, you know I don't believe in the wall. I think these sticks are lying in order to keep us away from that area by treath of an imagened wall.

Yes it's true, the notion of hell is threathening, and it gets people to clean their act up. We never denied that. And when someone has doubts in his fate, this issue will certainly be bothersome. But that is no reason to assume the whole thing is false.

It is my belief that the threat of heall and promise of heaven are only as effective as the belief in them. So this threat and promise are useful to keep believers from questioning but useless to bring in new converts.

If you don't believe hell exists, being told you will go there unless you change your belief is just going to leave you wondering

Well I would say that the notion of hell and heaven is only a threath when you interpretet it as such. You could ust as well see it as a fair and friendly warning of things to come. See it cuts both ways, and nobody will be dealth with unjustly, so why would you interpretet that notion as threathening? Crisis of conscience?

[Pygoscelis]

See it cuts both ways, and nobody will be dealth with unjustly, so why would you interpretet that notion as threathening? Crisis of conscience?

I see eternal torture for not doing as prescribed as a threat. Heaven/Hell is just about the purest reward/punishment mechanism I can think of.

[Trumble]

Well I would say that the notion of hell and heaven is only a threath when you interpretet it as such. You could ust as well see it as a fair and friendly warning of things to come. See it cuts both ways, and nobody will be dealth with unjustly...

That rather depends on whether 'justice' is absolute or relative. I have yet to encounter anything in the world that indicates it is the former.

[Umar001]

Well there are famous 'Christian' converts from Islam, because basically, they wanted to be promised paradise.

[Malaikah]

That rather depends on whether 'justice' is absolute or relative. I have yet to encounter anything in the world that indicates it is the former.

Justice is very absolute when we are talking about God- He is 'The Just' after all.

[Abdul Fattah]

I see eternal torture for not doing as prescribed as a threat. Heaven/Hell is just about the purest reward/punishment mechanism I can think of.

Yeh I got that, but you missed my point.
When you were a kid, did you consider santa claus a treath? He works with punishment/reward to right? So when you heared about him, did you consider it a threath or were you happy?

[Abdul Fattah]

That rather depends on whether 'justice' is absolute or relative. I have yet to encounter anything in the world that indicates it is the former.

that is because in this world there is frredom of choice. Freedom of choice means that there is no justice or at least not always in this world, since that would defeat the purpose of freedom of choice.

So you're wrong to judge the justice of judgementday by the justice of this world, it's not just.

[Woodrow]

When I reverted I had no thoughts about heaven or hell. That was not my reason to revert. To be honest I did not search for God(swt), I had no reason to worry about Heaven or Hell and could think of no reason to even think that God(swt) good possibly have any interest in us.

I guess my believe in God(swt) comes from Him finding me, not me looking for any comfort or peace of mind. I did not come to God(swt) easily, he had to rap me on the head a few times and drag me kicking and screaming in protest.

Any threat of hell or any promise of heaven had no bearing on my finaly accepting God(swt). I doubt if I am the only one who is Muslim, because of what may happen after death. To me that is a fringe benefit not a reason.

[Pygoscelis]

Yeh I got that, but you missed my point.
When you were a kid, did you consider santa claus a treath? He works with punishment/reward to right? So when you heared about him, did you consider it a threath or were you happy?

Santa has a lot on God. The worst Santa is going to do to you is put some coal in a stocking. That's not much of a threat, no. Coal actually has its uses.

That and Sanata only cares if you are good or bad, not if you believe in him.

[جوري]

please let's not put God with Santa, the tooth fairy or Easter bunny or other fictional characters in the same category. It is disrespectful in so man ways I have lost count. If an atheist member wishes to assimilate between fictional cartoon characters with God please I ask that the theists on the forum just not respond. ..
Thank you!

[syilla]

In my opinion most Christian religions are quite a bit stricter and more rigid than Islam is. Although my only personal experience with Christianity was as a Catholic. But some of the things that were found to be so strict was the combination of Biblical rules and Church law. Some examples as a kid.

the 5 daily prayers morning, bed time, and before each meal
the 40 day fast for lent and the intent to permentaly give up at least one item for all time not just for that lenten period, The daily mass at church mandatory for Sundays but, very strongly enforced for everyday,

Those were fairly easy and differ little from what I now practice. but then we had the mandatory Church laws

Weekly confession of our sins to the priest
one meal and no meat on fridays
Unpure thoughts seen as sins even if not acted upon
No self interpretation of the Bible, actually Bible reading as an individual was discouged back when I was a kid. The memorization of the prayers, Weekly attendence for CYO (Catholic Youth Organization), Memorization of the church litinies, Alter boy training, Daily recitation of the rosary, Plus many other rules.

I believe that what we see as todays rampant immorality among many Christians is a revolt against the centuries of restrictions. The rules are still there, but people are fed up with them and show it by violating all they were taught.

then how come...if i asked the christians...they said christians are quite flexible and not strict like islam...

[Woodrow]

then how come...if i asked the christians...they said christians are quite flexible and not strict like islam...

Depends on what denomination you speak to. There are very many denominations. Some, such as Catholochism, Greek Orthodox and Russian orthodox are ver strict and very rigid. Some are very lenient and liberal and do allow many things and have very few strict rules to follow.

My exposure to Christianity was as a Catholic and at that time it was very rigid and very strict.

[syilla]

Depends on what denomination you speak to. There are very many denominations. Some, such as Catholochism, Greek Orthodox and Russian orthodox are ver strict and very rigid. Some are very lenient and liberal and do allow many things and have very few strict rules to follow.

My exposure to Christianity was as a Catholic and at that time it was very rigid and very strict.

thank you...:)

[Pygoscelis]

please let's not put God with Santa, the tooth fairy or Easter bunny or other fictional characters in the same category. It is disrespectful in so man ways I have lost count.

I would like to remind you that it wasn't I who brought up the Santa analogy.

[Abdul Fattah]

I would like to remind you that it wasn't I who brought up the Santa analogy.

Yes you're right I was the guilty one. About the coal in the stocking not being a treath you might be right, I wasn't aware of that, apearantly santa's become nicer. The Santa Claus mythology comes from Saint Nicolas, who is still celebreted here in Belgium and in the Netherlands. But the story is a lil bit difrent he's not celebrated on christmas but rather on 6th of december, and although the reward for the good children is teh same as with Santa Claus. Saint Nicolas is much stricter with the children, he has a whole lot of black slaves (the legend comes from a time where nobody here cared about racism) who kidnapped the bad children in a big bag and spanked them. Anyway, the point I was trying to make was: Only the naughty children consider the santa claus story to be a threath, and even if they don't believe in it, at night they might not enjoy a perfect night's sleep wheras the good children who have nothing to fear don't feel threathened at all by the story and who are ectually exited for all the candy and toys.

You are running in circles. You open a threath in interreligious discussion to depicture the warning for the afterlife as a repugnant "trick" to get gullable people to follow the rules; and then proudly continue to defend disbelief by saying the disbeliever does not fear these tools of mass manipulation. What I was trying to show you is how that argument is completely relevant to interpretation and could easely be defeated by the counterargument: "It's not a threath, it's a promise."

[جوري]

the conundrum is that these same people who find religion and its rules repugnant and juvenile are the same ones who meet with the most obsequious manner their bosses just hoping for a promotion or a raise or a better dental plan, or for a two week vacation slot...........

[Abdul Fattah]

How is that a conundrum?

[جوري]

How is that a conundrum?

???

In other words... they find what religion dictates ridiculous, but not what their bosses dictate --or what they do to earn a living....... They believe religion focuses too much on reward and punishment yet unable to assimilate that to their every day affairs being exactly the same, if they wished to have a house, a car a dental plan and a good retirement pension......
A person needs to work hard at anything if they wished to attain the fruits of their labor.... Simple!

[Abdul Fattah]

Yes I know that, but the answer to that is simple; it's matter of clarity. The reward for religion is not as clear and obvious to them as the reward rom their jobs. So I don't consider it a conundrum. But then again, perhaps it's just because I used to be an atheist that I understand their motives.