DISCUSSION: The Origin of the Universe

[Dahir]

NOTE: This subject is 100% open. I call upon all minds and moderators to join this thread and open our minds to your knowledge of the origin of the universe. I also would like to hear comments from non-Muslims on their views on the origin of the universe.

[Pygoscelis]

Why must we assume that the universe had an origin. Shouldn't we start by considering that it may have always been?

[Avicenna]

Why must we assume that the universe had an origin. Shouldn't we start by considering that it may have always been?

An assertion with no logical justification is a fallacy. You are another victim of this, my friend.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Why must we assume that the universe had an origin. Shouldn't we start by considering that it may have always been?

Of course this is a possibility that must be entertained. However the common response to the notion of an eternally-existent universe points out the problem of infinite time. To be specific, if the universe has existed for an infinite period of time prior to our existence then an infinite period of time must have elapsed before our existence. Yet an infinite period of time cannot elapse just as an inifinite flight of stairs can never be ascended, nor a distance of infinite lenght crossed. Reductio ad absurdum.

Peace!

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[Umar001]

Why must we assume that the universe had an origin. Shouldn't we start by considering that it may have always been?

I thought science had already disproved the "steady-state theory"?

[Woodrow]

Why must we assume that the universe had an origin. Shouldn't we start by considering that it may have always been?

My limited knowledge and studies tend to indicate that the universe had a definite physical starting location and has been expanding from that location since creation. If it had been always in existance it seems that all matter would be so far spread that no stars would be in view. Yet, there is no point we can look and not see stars, true it will take a telescope to see them but the light from them is still close enough for us to detect. Since we are expanding, expansion for an infinite period of time would result in all objects being an infinite distance apart and that is not the case.

[muzna]

i thought the big bang theory was still considered?
that the universe was a central hot mass.
what happened to the Big Crunch theory..
(whatever was i taught in AL physics????!!!!)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i thought the big bang theory was still considered?
that the universe was a central hot mass.
what happened to the Big Crunch theory..
(whatever was i taught in AL physics????!!!!)

big crunch theory? lol enlighten me seriously i havent heard of this :eek:

[muzna]

well...we were taught that if the big bang theory is justifiable, then there would be a big crunch where the whole universe comes together to form the hot mass is started with..but wait..i think there were three theories regardig the universe, the open theory, closed theory and something else..my memory is rusty

[IbnAbdulHakim]

well...we were taught that if the big bang theory is justifiable, then there would be a big crunch where the whole universe comes together to form the hot mass is started with..but wait..i think there were three theories regardig the universe, the open theory, closed theory and something else..my memory is rusty

ye that sounds about right becoz the heavens and the earth was joined in order to create what we see today i believe. im sure a knowledgable brother will quote some quran :D

[muzna]

oh...i waas speaking about what is said in scientific circles..i think islamically its all baloney.
Didnt God draw the heavens and the earth? please correct me if i'm wrong
peace

[lolwatever]

Why must we assume that the universe had an origin. Shouldn't we start by considering that it may have always been?

erm that goes against one of the basics of physics.. everything has a cause... cause and effect :uuh:

lol but srsly this thread... isnt there ne1.. joe98? to get this therad rolling :D the above comment is just funny (even to n athiest probably :p)

[Malaikah]

the open theory, closed theory and something else..my memory is rusty

:sl:

thats right, depending on the density of the universe there are three possible paths it might take:

1. big crunch- the universe has a high enough density to over come the expansion and start to contract back into itself

2. the density is too low so it will continue to expand

3. the density is just right for it to just remain expanding, but at a pretty slow rate.

they are all of course, just theories

[Malaikah]

oh...i waas speaking about what is said in scientific circles..i think islamically its all baloney.
Didnt God draw the heavens and the earth? please correct me if i'm wrong
peace

:sl:

lol what? draw??

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

lol what? draw??

she means "braught together"

[muzna]

not really..i meant draw..in islam class i heard the teacher say once that Allah created the pen first and He drew the heavens and the earth..is this true?

[- Qatada -]

I think the pen writ everything that would happen till the day of judgement sister. Allaah Almighty know's best.

Ibn Abi Hatim recorded from Al-Walid bin `Ubadah bin As-Samit that he said, "My father called for me when he was dying and he said to me: `Verily, I heard the Messenger of Allah say,

«إِنَّ أَوَّلَ مَا خَلَقَ اللهُ الْقَلَمُ فَقَالَ لَهُ: اكْتُبْ، قَالَ: يَا رَبِّ وَمَا أَكْتُبُ؟ قَالَ: اكْتُبِ الْقَدَرَ وَمَا هُوَ كَائِنٌ إِلَى الْأَبَد»



(Verily, the first of what Allah created was the Pen, and He said to it: "Write.'' The Pen said: "O my Lord, what shall I write'' He said: "Write the decree and whatever will throughout eternity.'')'' This Hadith has been recorded by Imam Ahmad through various routes of transmission.


[At-Tirmidhi also recorded it from a Hadith of Abu Dawud At-Tayalisi and he (At-Tirmidhi) said about it, "Hasan Sahih, Gharib.'']

Writing: this is the belief that Allaah has written the decrees concerning all created beings in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz. The evidence for that is the verse in which He says (interpretation of the meaning):


“Know you not that Allaah knows all that is in the heaven and on the earth? Verily, it is (all) in the Book (al-Lawh al-Mahfooz). Verily, that is easy for Allaah”

[al-Hajj 22:16]



And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah wrote the decrees concerning all created beings fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.” Narrated by Muslim, 2653.

Belief of Ahl al-Sunnah concerning al-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar (Divine Will and Decree)
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...n=eng&txt=qadr

:salamext:

[lolwatever]

musawwir also mean 'designer'...

i was talkin with dudette the otherday n i showed him this cool 2D to 3D thing... dudette u still got the link lol?

remember z-depth is just a dimension just like time is... only Allah knows what existance is like beyond the universe... and furtehrmore, only Allah knows how this universe was created along with the dimensions that we are confined in. we'll wait n learn in jannah i guess :D

[muzna]

I think the pen writ everything that would happen till the day of judgement sister. Allaah Almighty know's best.

Writing: this is the belief that Allaah has written the decrees concerning all created beings in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz. The evidence for that is the verse in which He says (interpretation of the meaning):


“Know you not that Allaah knows all that is in the heaven and on the earth? Verily, it is (all) in the Book (al-Lawh al-Mahfooz). Verily, that is easy for Allaah”

[al-Hajj 22:16]



And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah wrote the decrees concerning all created beings fifty thousand years before He created the heavens and the earth.” Narrated by Muslim, 2653.

Belief of Ahl al-Sunnah concerning al-Qada’ wa’l-Qadar (Divine Will and Decree)
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...n=eng&txt=qadr

:salamext:

jazakallah khair bro

[Pygoscelis]

An assertion with no logical justification is a fallacy. You are another victim of this, my friend.

I made no claim, so your statement is false. I merely stated that an assumption was made in the question in the opening post and underscored that assumption. It is meaningless to ask the origin of the universe if there isn't one.

Yet an infinite period of time cannot elapse just as an inifinite flight of stairs can never be ascended, nor a distance of infinite lenght crossed. Reductio ad absurdum.

That is not absurd by definition. It just doesn't resonate with you. Why can't time be infinite? What makes you think it is finite? Your answer sounds to me like the theist who says God clearly exists or the atheist who says God clearly Doesn't. It is a claim without any stated basis.

Since we are expanding, expansion for an infinite period of time would result in all objects being an infinite distance apart and that is not the case.

That is a good point and may indeed be evidence of an origin. It is the best argument against an infinite universe that there is I think. But that of course assumes that the universe has always been expanding and has not been pulsating or didn't start expanding at some point (and no I don't know either to be the case).

erm that goes against one of the basics of physics.. everything has a cause... cause and effect

That we exist is evidence that your statement is untrue. SOMETHING had to always exist be it the universe or whatever (perhaps a God?) caused the universe. By assigning the universe a cause you only force the question of who or what caused that cause.

[lolwatever]

That we exist is evidence that your statement is untrue. SOMETHING had to always exist be it the universe or whatever (perhaps a God?) caused the universe. By assigning the universe a cause you only force the question of who or what caused that cause.

so ur saying there is a cause for the existance of the universe (i.e. something kicked it off) or.....?

[Malaikah]

That is not absurd by definition. It just doesn't resonate with you. Why can't time be infinite? What makes you think it is finite? Your answer sounds to me like the theist who says God clearly exists or the atheist who says God clearly Doesn't. It is a claim without any stated basis.

Time cant be infinite because according to the second law of thermodynamics, if the universe had existed for an infinite time, then it should have already reached a state of *something* woops i cant remember what the something was...

er anyway the point is the idea of the universe having existed without a begining violates the second law of thermodynamics....

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace to you all,

I think if you spend a number of sleepless nights trying to come up with an origin for the universe the options end up giving you a headache. Something either had no beginning or something came from nothing, both these possibilities seem to defy logic, reason and science. It is probably easier to understand if nothing existed at all..:uhwhat

We are told that God had no beginning but that explanation is difficult to comprehend.

In the spirit of searching for impossible answers

Eric

[Pygoscelis]

Good point.

Nobody truly knows the origin of the universe, if there was one. Some decide to have faith and believe in a religious explanation. Others latch onto scientific theories such as evolution.

Why are there so few that will simply say "i don't know" and leave it at that.

Why is it so important for us to know? I think this is a more interesting question.

[Avicenna]

Why is it so important for us to know? I think this is a more interesting question.

Because ultimately it can be evidence for/against God's existance.

[جوري]

Why is it so important for us to know? I think this is a more interesting question.

We are curious creatures by nature.... And we have higher brain function than animals that urges us to find answers.....even if we wish to ignore them in favor of what is immediate and self explanatory... Can't go against forces that drive you to seek and learn....It is a need that has to be fulfilled ... like the other primal ones we all know so well!

[Fishman]

i thought the big bang theory was still considered?
that the universe was a central hot mass.
what happened to the Big Crunch theory..
(whatever was i taught in AL physics????!!!!)

:sl:
The big cruch was disproved. There is not enough matter in it universe for it to collapse on itself.
:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

That is not absurd by definition. It just doesn't resonate with you. Why can't time be infinite? What makes you think it is finite? Your answer sounds to me like the theist who says God clearly exists or the atheist who says God clearly Doesn't. It is a claim without any stated basis.

It seems you understood absolutely nothing of what I wrote. Allow me to explain again. To say that the universe has existed eternally without origin is to say that there was an inifinite period of time that preceded us. It is logically incoherent to suggest that an infinite period of time had to pass before the present. Why? Because an infinite period of time logically CANNOT elapse. If you are running up a set of stairs with an infinite number of steps, you will never get to the top. If you are trying to cross an infinite distance you will never be able to do so. If the distance was truly infinitely long you would just keep going and going. Likewise, an infinite period of time by definition does not come to an end. So there could not possibly be an infinite period of time preceding us.

Hopefully that is more clear.
Regards

[root]

The origins of the universe is still a great scientific mystery. Our universe could simply be the inside of an expanding super massive dark star, or a circular system where universes are merely recycled into other universes of which we are in 1 of a near infinate number.

I think the most important question for religion and science is simple. Is our universe a single one off entity or 1 of many?

Pygoscelis
Good point.

Nobody truly knows the origin of the universe, if there was one. Some decide to have faith and believe in a religious explanation. Others latch onto scientific theories such as evolution.

May I give you some advice. Around this forum it is (in my opinion) generally a bad idea to use the term "Evolution" other than in the context of the theory of evolution which in no way seeks to answer questions such as how life started or any issues regarding the creation of the universe. It causes a lot of misunderstandings a little later on!

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace root;

I think the most important question for religion and science is simple. Is our universe a single one off entity or 1 of many?

I think the universe is big enough to keep mankind searching for millenniums to come, what difference would it make if there where a billion universes? I still think the greater question is; does a creator God of the universe exist; yes or no?

In the spirit of searching

Eric

[wilberhum]

does a creator God of the universe exist; yes or no?

Is that a request for Proof?
If so, there is none.

[Eric H]

Greetings in peace wilberhum;

Is that a request for Proof?
If so, there is none.

I agree there is no real proof, and that is what keeps us searching.

Individual faith in God brings proof for the person who is searching for God and wants to find God, but this proof does not satisfy those who do not believe. This perception of truth also seems to take believers along many diverse paths.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

[root]

Eric H - what difference would it make if there where a billion universes? I still think the greater question is; does a creator God of the universe exist

The difference would be an infinate number of "chances" where what you see in a universe are stars! As opposed to the very unlikely chance of one attempt to create a universe that was "just right" for a seeing universe where what you see are stars.

[snakelegs]

Greetings in peace wilberhum;



I agree there is no real proof, and that is what keeps us searching.

Individual faith in God brings proof for the person who is searching for God and wants to find God, but this proof does not satisfy those who do not believe. This perception of truth also seems to take believers along many diverse paths.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

i agree completely with the above.
something i have run into for the first time on here on LI is that some do not seem to differentiate between "faith" and "knowledge" and will offer "proof" for what is basically unprovable, even if it is true to the person making the statement.
religion cannot be proven - this does not mean that it is not true for its followers or that god does not exist. (which equally cannot be proven).

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
A few posts were removed - please note: this discussion is on the origin of the universe. Not proof for the existence of God. Not the miraculous nature of the Qur'an. We already have enough threads on those topics, please use the search facility.

:w:

[Fishman]

:sl:
Science has shown us that there was once a time when the universe didn't exist, which logically means that something must have caused it to come to being. What this thing is/was, however, cannot be proved by science, and any explanation is guesswork or theology. However, there is a difference between the Islamic belief and the atheistic beliefs: whilst the Islamic belief is founded on allaah (swt)'s signs in the Quran, the atheistic hypotheses are just educated guesses.
:w:

[Pygoscelis]

:sl:
Science has shown us that there was once a time when the universe didn't exist

What science? I would like to see this. Are you just extrapolating from the universe being in a state of expansion or do you have something more than that?

[Fishman]

What science? I would like to see this. Are you just extrapolating from the universe being in a state of expansion or do you have something more than that?

:sl:
Yes, partly from extrapolating from the expansion of the universe, but also from other things:
If the universe had existed forever, astronomers would be able to see out into space forever. But this is not the case. About 14 billion light years from Earth, no stars, gas or quasars can be seen. Light from this area originated relatively close to the time that extrapolations suggest that the universe was born.

Also, according to extrapolations, there must have been a time when the universe was an infinitely small singularity, which meant that nothing could exist.
:w:

[lolwatever]

:sl:
Yes, partly from extrapolating from the expansion of the universe, but also from other things:
If the universe had existed forever, astronomers would be able to see out into space forever. But this is not the case. About 14 billion light years from Earth, no stars, gas or quasars can be seen. Light from this area originated relatively close to the time that extrapolations suggest that the universe was born.

Also, according to extrapolations, there must have been a time when the universe was an infinitely small singularity, which meant that nothing could exist.
:w:

plank's barrier :D