The Feminists

[Bittersteel]

virtually everyone is against Islam and they are all proud of it because they are fighting terrorism,liberating oppressed women,etc.Its sooooooooooooooooo cute,right?

http://www.cairchicago.org/mediamoni...=mm_ct02012006


Removed comment that some members found offensive.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1300

hahaha.

Post more if you find more.

[Keltoi]

I don't know anything about Chessler, and if her story is true then she obviously had a bad experience. I would think that the treatment of women in certain countries has more to do with the cultural norms of that particular society, not a religion. You hear many people claim that women are often degraded by Islam, but I don't live in those societies or those cultures so I take it with a grain of salt until proven otherwise.

[wilberhum]

Women wanting the same rights as men.
How discusting. :grumbling :grumbling

[lavikor201]

Maybe soon they will want equal jobs, or the right to vote! :D

(didn't kuwait finally let a women run?)

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[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

:sl:

feminists lets not go there..had enough of them in sociology...they well embarassing...:w:

[wilberhum]

:sl:

feminists lets not go there..had enough of them in sociology...they well embarassing...:w:

Ya, lets not go there, like lavikor201 said:

Maybe soon they will want equal jobs, or the right to vote!

Why can't they be content with our male superority. :hiding: :hiding:

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

^^lol...i dont get them hostly dont..they can just sit in the corner n chat 2 themselves..no offence to peeps out there who r feminists...:rolleyes:

:w:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Women wanting the same rights as men.
How discusting. :grumbling :grumbling

you sed it, men and women are both different and equal on different levels.

its like men are 2+4 = 6 and women are 3+3 = 6 but noo these women wanna be 2+4 = 6 but they cant be 2+4 = 6 coz they lack the attributes aaand :grumbling

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

tooo right..n hey am a girl... i dnt get the fact that they wana b better then men or they want much more eqal right then men...they just chat toooo much... n shoot their mouth off on god knws what leave them to it...lol..:D

am sooooo not with them...

:w:

[wilberhum]

^^lol...i dont get them hostly dont..they can just sit in the corner n chat 2 themselves..no offence to peeps out there who r feminists...:rolleyes:

:w:

I don’t think we are talking about sitting in a corner. We are talking harsh oppression and virtual house arrest. :hiding: :hiding:

No one should be sitting in a corner when it comes to female genital mutilation. :grumbling :grumbling :grumbling

i dnt get the fact that they wana b better then men or they want much more eqal right then men

Not better, not more equal, just equal.

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

lol..then u knOw what i mean...tell the to zip it...:X..lol..

[IbnAbdulHakim]

No one should be sitting in a corner when it comes to female genital mutilation. :grumbling :grumbling :grumbling

wat?

Not better, not more equal, just equal.

i work at UCL, they made me and my other male colleagues do extremely heavy lifting which made us sweat like crazy while the lady sat down and typed away on the keyboard, no she wasnt working, she wasnt physically able to help us so she chat on MSN.


equal... :rollseyes

[amirah_87]

As Salaamu Alaykum,

I heard that Feminists are Lesbians is that true? :?

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

^^^lol....sis dunno where u got that 4rm..lol...eeerm basically they group of women who believe they not getting equal rights n that men are much more suprior than women n they fightin against that to get equal rights...buh its stupid really...[well the definiton may not b accurate buh summat alonf them lines]

[wilberhum]

Being the father of two girls, I get real sensitive about male dominance.

I always told them they could be anything they wanted to be, as long as worked hard enough.

The thought of some male slovenliest pig making them second class is beyond my tolerance. :grumbling :grumbling

[IbnAbdulHakim]

The thought of some male slovenliest pig making them second class is beyond my tolerance. :grumbling :grumbling

define second class please :)

[amirah_87]

As Salaamu Alayku,

Lol I know what they are :D

someone told me that the other day and I was like...

:? :?

Just thought anyone else might've heard the same?

[wilberhum]

define second class please :)

Not "First Class", like some men think they are. :? :?
What is "Second Class" to you?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Not "First Class", like some men think they are. :? :?
What is "Second Class" to you?

first class = those treated best
second class = those given less due to a lack of a certain quality such as gender/race/age etc


however i think feminists go over the top. And as for the pigs, just keep your daughters away from them :rollseyes , theres pigs in the females aswell u kno :heated:

[wilberhum]

Like all groups, feminists have there extreamists.
That does not make feminists bad any more that any other group that has extreamists.
Women have never received equality.
Women have always been discriminated against.

I fight against all discrimination, expecially gender discrimination.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Like all groups, feminists have there extreamists.
That does not make feminists bad any more that any other group that has extreamists.
Women have never received equality.
Women have always been discriminated against.

I fight against all discrimination, expecially gender discrimination.

dnt wry man, become muslim and u'll feel the equality ;)

we're not even allowed to make our mums say "uff" NOT EVEN BY ACCIDENT !!! now thats what u call ELEVATION !!

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

i totally agree..they too extreme..n very EMBARASSING!!!!

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

dnt wry man, become muslim and u'll feel the equality ;)

we're not even allowed to make our mums say "uff" NOT EVEN BY ACCIDENT !!! now thats what u call ELEVATION !!

:D..to right!!

[abdmez]

its like men are 2+4 = 6 and women are 3+3 = 6 but noo these women wanna be 2+4 = 6 but they cant be 2+4 = 6 coz they lack the attributes aaand

Good explanantion, yet I'm afraid you analogy doesn't exactly work when analyzing womes rights in many countries. Women should be aloud to vote and things like that for sure.

[wilberhum]

dnt wry man, become muslim and u'll feel the equality ;)

we're not even allowed to make our mums say "uff" NOT EVEN BY ACCIDENT !!! now thats what u call ELEVATION !!

I think you need to reread the article. Or did you read it a first time?
The basis of her complaints is the treatment she received fro Muslims.

That does not make "All Muslims" bad, but it sure shows some are not good.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Good explanantion, yet I'm afraid you analogy doesn't exactly work when analyzing womes rights in many countries. Women should be aloud to vote and things like that for sure.

i took a shot :-\

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I think you need to reread the article. Or did you read it a first time?
The basis of her complaints is the treatment she received fro Muslims.

That does not make "All Muslims" bad, but it sure shows some are not good.

black sheeps i guess

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

that mayb because of culture but islam teaches equality..

[IbnAbdulHakim]

that mayb because of culture but islam teaches equality..

mashaAllah thats very true.

culture is women are the housemaidens while men get to rest, islam teaches women are the mothers and wives but men SHOULD HELP whilst they provide.


correct me if im wrong inshaAllah

[wilberhum]

It is not like "2+4 = 6 and 3+3 = 6".
It is more like a pound of dirt = a pound of gold.
What's the difference, both are a pound. :grumbling :grumbling
In the "Old South" here in the US, there was a policy, "Seperate but equal".
In fact it was seperate and unequal. Just like 2+4 in not = 3+3.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

It is not like "2+4 = 6 and 3+3 = 6".
It is more like a pound of dirt = a pound of gold.
What's the difference, both are a pound. :grumbling :grumbling
In the "Old South" here in the US, there was a policy, "Seperate but equal".
In fact it was seperate and unequal. Just like 2+4 in not = 3+3.

i was talking about islamic equality, i agree western civilazation didnt give women their full rights. I recall hearing in a lecture that in the past women actually use to admire the muslim women due to the amount of rights they were given.

Allah Knows Best.


:peace:

[wilberhum]

i was talking about islamic equality

Tell me where this "islamic equality" exists.
Not the same rights is unequal rights. No matter how you try to justify it.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

It is not like "2+4 = 6 and 3+3 = 6".
It is more like a pound of dirt = a pound of gold.
What's the difference, both are a pound. :grumbling :grumbling
In the "Old South" here in the US, there was a policy, "Separate but equal".
In fact it was separate and unequal. Just like 2+4 in not = 3+3.

lol u have officially lost the plot

im out :D

[wilberhum]

lol u have officially lost the plot

im out :D

No just network problems. :hiding: :hiding:

[Joey]

i dont get feminism i mean woman have every right men have EVEN more, i mean if i walk out with a dress ima get my ass beaten unless im scotish which i aint so their gonna beat me up fo sure, and woman get to wear dresses AND pants.

[lavikor201]

i dont get feminism i mean woman have every right men have EVEN more.

I think we are speaking about voting, getting a job without a husbands permission, runnign for president, ect...

[Muslim Knight]

I think we are speaking about voting, getting a job without a husbands permission, runnign for president, ect...

what about the rights to pee standing up (when you have to, in emergencies for example), grow a moustache and a beard, work at the construction site, serve in the frontlines, clean the sewerage etc...

I think equal rights entail to equal responsibilities too. Really equal.

:rollseyes:rollseyes:rollseyes

It's unfair to demand to be treated equally if the ladies can't do men's jobs even the menial ones. A lot of feminists are very choosy to which equal rights they're demanding from men. They're only demanding jobs which confer to them places in high-rise buildings, properly air-conditioned and mostly in front of the PCs. I suggest that female baboons also be given the chance to demand for rights since these jobs many baboons can also perform if given the proper education and training.

Also, anyone who diss female baboons under my protection is out of my tolerance zone.

[Joey]

what about the rights to pee standing up (when you have to, in emergencies for example), grow a moustache and a beard, work at the construction site, serve in the frontlines, clean the sewerage etc...

I think equal rights entail to equal responsibilities too. Really equal.



It's unfair to demand to be treated equally if the ladies can't do men's jobs even the menial ones. A lot of feminists are very choosy to which equal rights they're demanding from men. They're only demanding jobs which confer to them places in high-rise buildings, properly air-conditioned and mostly in front of the PCs. I suggest that female baboons also be given the chance to demand for rights since these jobs many baboons can also perform if given the proper education and training.

Also, anyone who diss female baboons under my protection is out of my tolerance zone.

oh yous talkin bout the m-east i live in europe so its differentially over up in here

[akulion]

Interesting thread, but I have to point out one error..

2 + 4 = 3 + 3 <-- is correct

so the statement by wilbur:

Just like 2+4 in not = 3+3

is actually incorrect.

Mathetically speaking the equation 2 + 4 = 3 + 3 is in arguably correct. :)

lol just my 2 cents on maths - nothing to do with the topic though lol

[Keltoi]

People from Western society tend to look at the issue of women's rights through the lens of democracy and equality, and the great progress we've actually made in these areas. Feminism as a cause is just, but I see a similar situation occurring as was the case during the golden age of feminism. Hardcore feminists begin to look down on housewives as "slaves" to their husbands. Women who are stay-at-home moms are ridiculed. A similar situation could be occurring with the recent statements about women in Islamic culture. Those who follow a more traditional family system are seen as "slaves" or a victim to be rescued. I'm not saying that women's rights haven't been violated in many Muslim countries, because obviously they have.

[Muslim Knight]

. Women who are stay-at-home moms are ridiculed.

... by feminists AKA so-called champions of women's rights.

A similar situation could be occurring with the recent statements about women in Islamic culture.

It's not Islamic culture. It's purely local customs. Like honor-killings and forced arranged marriage, it wasn't taught in Islam but local traditions and customs. You can look up anywhere in the Quran & Sunnah of the Prophet and not find justification for treating women badly. In contrast, the Prophet insists that treating women well is part of faith.

Those who follow a more traditional family system are seen as "slaves" or a victim to be rescued.

Again, by feminists and again, of local customs and not Islamic teachings.

I'm not saying that women's rights haven't been violated in many Muslim countries, because obviously they have.

As per above.

Islam has been championing women's rights for a thousand years now. You can look up articles in the forum explaining the positions, rights and privileges of Muslim women. For starters, in remote Hindu villages the women are obliged to throw themselves into fire to accompany their dead husbands. Yet, this kind of thing is never thought of in Islam. Instead, Muslim women who wilfuly and of personal choice don the hijab are seen as 'oppressed' and need to 'liberated' by their feminist counterparts who, as I've explained earlier, are selective of which rights they want to demand from men.

If anything could be blamed, I'd say it's local customs and traditions.

[muzna]

Palestinization???

[Muslim Knight]

oh yous talkin bout the m-east i live in europe so its differentially over up in here

nope. i'm talking about feminist movement all around the world.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

we're not even allowed to make our mums say "uff" NOT EVEN BY ACCIDENT !!! now thats what u call ELEVATION !!

And when your mum responds to the "uff" with a tiger uppercut, that is also elevation :p.

[Muslim Knight]

we're not even allowed to make our mums say "uff" NOT EVEN BY ACCIDENT !!! now thats what u call ELEVATION !!

I thought it was rather we are not even by accident, allowed to say "uff!" to our moms instead of the other way around.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I thought it was rather we are not even by accident, allowed to say "uff!" to our moms instead of the other way around.

lol dont know brother, but the meaning stays close to the same mashaAllah.

[strider]

:sl:

feminists lets not go there..had enough of them in sociology...they well embarassing...:w:

Either your sociology teacher is rubbish or you aren't understanding what the feminists cause is all about. Enlighten us, what is so embarrassing about standing up for women rights and campaigning to be treated equally to men in society? The feminist movement first arouse in an age where women are not seen as equals in society.. and you think that is embarassing?

You have your ranting extremists (like you do in all groups) but i'm surprised to hear that you find feminists to be a source of embarrassment. I would have thought this was the last thing coming from a sociology student.

[Fishman]

:sl:
I agree with the feminists who don't want men to oppress women. But I think the ones who say things like 'religion has no right to interfere with a women's life' are completely stupid. Religion is supposed to interfere with the lives of all believers, women do not have special rights that mean that God's Orders don't apply to them.
Let's look 'beyond the veil' (as the feminists always say) and see how men and women are treated by Islam:

• Men must attend the Masjid every Friday, women have the option of attending or not.
• Men have no respite from fasting unless they are ill, women have periods.
• Men must wear an Ihram during Hajj, women just have to chose modest clothes.
• Men must go in front of women in Jummah, which means that they cannot accidentally look at a women during prayer at all.
• A man is always the Imam in a mixed prayer, which further prevents men from looking at women.
• Men may not wear silk or gold, whilst women can.

Islam contains many things which may be seen as oppressive to men, as well as many things which are seen by some as oppressive to women. Due to their arrogance and ignorance, feminists only point out the things which restrict women, in a way of saying 'women are more valuable than men and need to be treated better than them'.
Feminists also overlook the fact that what is considered oppression to them is protection to others. Feminists say that women are valuable, and therefore should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm other people or property. Muslims say that women are valuable, and therefore should be protected and hidden from men who may want to harm them.
:w:

[duskiness]

It's really sad to see feminist movement ridiculed by you!
What's wrong with it???? Feminism is simply against inequality based on sex. Is it so wrong? It's against determining one's life way because of.
If you want to be a house wife, be one! Don't want? Than do something different! The fact that someone is a woman shouldn't be a limit to her dreams! Or the fact that she has a "worse days" doesn't make her less independent, mind weaker.

I heard that Feminists are Lesbians is that true? :?

Feminists are first of all human, and thats how they want to be treated. Man can be feminist, hetero- may, bi- may, homosexual my be feminists.
I you are asking me - no, I'm not lesbian.

basically they group of women who believe they not getting equal rights n that men are much more suprior than women n they fightin against that to get equal rights...buh its stupid really...[well the definiton may not b accurate buh summat alonf them lines]

what's stupid?

what about the rights to pee standing up (when you have to, in emergencies for example), grow a moustache and a beard, work at the construction site, serve in the frontlines, clean the sewerage etc...

you REALLY want answer to this?????

It's unfair to demand to be treated equally if the ladies can't do men's jobs even the menial ones

sorry i'm physically weaker than you. but only physically. And that's the only place, where we are unequal.

black sheeps i guess

feminists also have black sheep, but don't judge all because of some

you sed it, men and women are both different and equal on different levels.

"all animals are equal but some are more equal"??? There is only one level of equality.

wilberhum - i virtually hug you! you must be a great father!

[akulion]

lol this is what happens when u dont discuss a topic seriously and start making silly comments @ everyone

learn a lesson and next time when starting a thread DISCUSS properly providing supporting arguments and not just chit chat.....

It is sad to see topics in which there is just chit chat going on thats why in my past post i only commented on the maths and nothing else cos I knew it would be useless to write something long and thought out only to recieve a silly reply

lol

crazy I tell u

2 funny

[muzna]

Abu Hurairah r.a. said : A man came to Rasulullah s.a.w. and said : "O Rasulullah, who of mankind is most entitled to the best of my companionship ?". Rasulullah said : "Your mother". He said :"Then who ?". Rasulullah said : "Your mother". He said :"Then who ?". Rasulullah said : "Your mother". He said :"Then who ?". Rasulullah said : "Your father". ( Bukhari, Muslim )

According to several authentic hadith including the one narrated in Ahmed and Ibn-e-Majah, “Paradise lies at the feet of the mother”

[Malaikah]

No one should be sitting in a corner when it comes to female genital mutilation. :grumbling :grumbling :grumbling

FGM has nothing to do with Islam! It's a stupid culture practise that ignorant people somehow deceive themselves into thinking is Islamic.

sorry i'm physically weaker than you. but only physically. And that's the only place, where we are unequal.

What about emotionally? How many mean do you who suffer from PMS? Men and women are different in more ways that just physical aspects, that should be obvious to anyone. :rollseyes

Enlighten us, what is so embarrassing about standing up for women rights and campaigning to be treated equally to men in society?

Nothing wrong with it, but you do realise that a lot of their ideas are against Islamic ideas dont you?

The feminist movement first arouse in an age where women are not seen as equals in society.. and you think that is embarassing?

True they needed it, but you know what, we dont need it! Why? cos Islam already gives us our rights. Maybe sme people dont realise these rights, but in that case we aim to educate them through islam, not feminism

[muzna]

No one should be sitting in a corner when it comes to female genital mutilation. :grumbling :grumbling :grumbling

FGM is a practice than existed before the advent of Islam.

A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to her: “Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.” Sunan Abu Dawûd, Book 41, #5251.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

"all animals are equal but some are more equal"??? There is only one level of equality.

you compare men and women to animals lol ok.
anyway what im saying is that men and women have their own area and purpose, one shouldnt try to be like the other.

well thats my understanding !

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

Either your sociology teacher is rubbish or you aren't understanding what the feminists cause is all about. Enlighten us, what is so embarrassing about standing up for women rights and campaigning to be treated equally to men in society? The feminist movement first arouse in an age where women are not seen as equals in society.. and you think that is embarassing?

You have your ranting extremists (like you do in all groups) but i'm surprised to hear that you find feminists to be a source of embarrassment. I would have thought this was the last thing coming from a sociology student.

womens right ok...why do women get oppressed through culture right...
religion teaches women to be equal to men...feminist they are tooo extreme in the fact that they want to be better than men or suprior than men...society has changed alot from back inthe old days and i can tell u women now adays can do what they want ....yes being a sociology student has helped me alot about the society we live in today...all these feminists want is more right than men...n i dont see why they actually want that because women are having evry oportunity to actually build up on their career path etc....and i have a mind to cristise right as i am socilogy student after all...what do these women want ...do they want to take the role of men[bredwinner] and men take over the role of women[instrumental role]... yes in other parts of the country u do have that oppression of women not being able to be free beause of male dominate society..but u cannot blame the men for that its purely culture..not islam what so ever..islam lets women do alot of things as long its with in the islamic law...

n my socilogy teacher...RUBBISH..*puuuhhh*...N i came out with an A grade in my exam..ok...feminsts i understand...they go to far with it..i do understand them in some issues...but i can hosly today in society women are free..

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ respect :)


btw im out of reps :-\

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

^^:D all be waiting ..lol..

i think i wud have gone on forever bt honestly..i dont get them sometimes..

[guyabano]

She also condemns veiling and female genital mutilation and makes statistically unsupported claims about high rates of domestic violence in Muslim countries.

And I always thought, in muslim families doesn't exist domestic violence? :rant: :rollseyes

[Tania]

I think if the women would have been presidents :) would have been much more peace in the world. - would rule the peace

[guyabano]

I think if the women would have been presidents :) would have been much more peace in the world. - would rule the peace

I agree with you in this point ! Even though, not all are so good also. The german chancelor Angela Merkel has lost much in popularity and credibility

[IbnAbdulHakim]

And I always thought, in muslim families doesn't exist domestic violence? :rant: :rollseyes

black sheeps :rant:

[Tania]

I agree with you in this point ! Even though, not all are so good also. The german chancelor Angela Merkel has lost much in popularity and credibility

I don't know too much from what she is doing but Germany always were difficult to rule.
But we have our Benazil Butto-ex prim of Pakistan:) It was peace when she was there.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
Please see my article entitled Muslim Women: Concept of Equality. One of the quotations from the article is:

In contrast to the feminist premise that women can do anything men can do, science is demonstrating that women can do some things better, that they have many biological and cognitive advantages over men. Then again, there are some things that women don't do as well. (SOURCE)

:w:

[wilberhum]

In contrast to the feminist premise that women can do anything men can do

How wrong can someone be? What a totally false statement.

There are functions that more women can do better than most men, but there are some men that can do that function better than most women.
There are functions that more men can do better than most women, but there are some women that can do the function better than most men.

What a feminist want is for women who do equal work to receive equal pay.
If they have equal abilities then get an equal chance.

If to be fire fighters you need to be able to carry 150 pounds up a ladder, feminists only ask that if a woman can carry 150 pounds up a ladder that they have an opportunity to do the job.

A woman that writes the same quality of computer code should receive the same pay.

That is what feminists want and they are right.

To distort there objectives to defame them is no less than lying.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

How wrong can someone be? What a totally false statement.

It is not false. There are evidently many feminists that are still under the delusion that men and women possess identical capabilities, a notion that has been debunked by scientific research which shows that women excel over men in some areas and vice versa. Pay equity is a totally seperate issue and not the monopoly of feminists, nor the only issue they advocate.

[wilberhum]

It is not false. There are evidently many feminists that are still under the delusion that men and women possess identical capabilities, a notion that has been debunked by scientific research which shows that women excel over men in some areas and vice versa. Pay equity is a totally seperate issue and not the monopoly of feminists, nor the only issue they advocate.

What you found a couple of feminist extremists? Well goodie goodie. :rant:
You of all people, I would not have guessed that you would define a whole group by a few. :grumbling :grumbling :grumbling
Maybe you should look in your own back yard. :rant: ;D

[Tania]

I agree with that: for same job should be the same wage- if the quality is the same-no matter what gender has the employees. This is a good point.:)

[wilberhum]

I agree with that: for same job should be the same wage- if the quality is the same-no matter what gender has the employees. This is a good point.:)

Such an easy concept. Equal pay for equal work. It is much better than it use to be, but there is still some distance to travel.

[duskiness]

It is not false. There are evidently many feminists that are still under the delusion that men and women possess identical capabilities.

you can't find 2 people that posses identical capabilities!
The point feminists make is that defining who should you be, what traces of character you should posses, what jobs you can do, what your ambitions should be simply because you belong to other half of human population is wrong.
There are emotional women and those who are cool as ice,
cruel and caring,
stupid and wise,
those who can drive cars and those who should never be allowed to sit behind the wheel.
Deciding in advance about who am i, and what i can and can't do only because of fact that i may have PMS is unequal treatment.
Deciding on my salary only becuse it's more difficult for me to to pee standing is discrimnation.
Taking my testimony as less valuable only because i have higher estrogen level is discrimination.
Saying that i need someone to look after me only because statistics say i should be shorter than men is discrimnation.

you compare men and women to animals lol ok.

it was quote from "Animal Farm" by G. Orwell

[guyabano]

I don't know too much from what she is doing but Germany always were difficult to rule.
But we have our Benazil Butto-ex prim of Pakistan:) It was peace when she was there.

Hmmm, but look at Aquino and Macapagal in Philippines. Not a blessing too for the country. Philippines is often ruled by female presidents and doesn't come out of corruption !

[wilberhum]

duskiness
It is good to see that someone gets the point.

[Ummu Amatullah]

Philippines is often ruled by female presidents and doesn't come out of corruption !

Hi,

Maybe because the Philippines is ruled by a female president.I'm not saying females aren't capable of ruling over a whole country,but i'm just saying that God created men and women alike but with different capabilities and capacities.God created Hawa(a women) from the crooked rib of Adam(a man),womenkind were created delicate and soft,while men were created with toughness and strength.God created women to raise and take care of mankind so that we(mankind) would grow and be productive on Earth,and God created men for a different role.He created them so that they could be the breadbreeders of the family and so that they could go around the world working and doing all of the tough work.Delicacy and tenderness is in women's nature and being tough,strict,rough,powerful,or being the head is in a man's nature.If men and women switched places/if they switched roles.Let's say put the man in the house and let him raise the children,cook for the children,clean the house,and do all of the other housewife work;and take the women and put her in business,put her in the military.Let her fight in war,let her pick up huge structures which way 500 pounds,let her participate in wrestling.After all she's asking to be equal to men,and this is what men have to deal with.Seriously be honest with your self.Can you imagine a world like that?Would mankind be able to grow and survive that way?

God created everything with wisdom,he made a system for mankind.He created everything with order and has perfected his creation.He has set a natural harmony in this world and if we disturb that harmony we'll bring distruction upon our ownselves.So to those feminists I say, "Leave your feminist philosophies and let the natural organization of God prevail."

Peace,and this is just my view

Sincerely,
Shukri A.K.A Al-Muslimah

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

^^^Well said sister:D..mashaAllah

[wilberhum]

I'm not saying females aren't capable of ruling over a whole country

But really you are. And more "reasons" to keep women in ther place.
A womens place is in the House. Right and in the Senate too.

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

well not exactly yes its better for women to be in the house and having commitment to family but in some cases women dont always have to be in the house...they can be working or whatever they do best as long as its not breaking islamic rulings...but yes its more liked for a women to be in the house so its causes less problems ...[in other words]

[Ummu Amatullah]

But really you are. And more "reasons" to keep women in ther place.
A womens place is in the House. Right and in the Senate too.

I'm saying the women's place is where she belongs,it's where her capabilities allow her to be which isn't only limited to the house but anywhere else such as in the community,at jobs were she's capable of getting things done {Not picking up loads of bricks and etc.....,nor in the military since that's a very dangerous field where a women shouldn't be unless she chooses not to raise her children and to depart from her family}.

Sincrely,
Shukri A.K.A. Al-Muslimah

[Keltoi]

Just depends on the society and culture. American and European societies have set a standard of equal treatment and opportunity for women. Other cultures view the female role in a different way. There is abuse and then there is tradition. As long as tradition doesn't manifest itself as abuse I don't see any reason to push a particular worldview on anyone.

[wilberhum]

Just depends on the society and culture. American and European societies have set a standard of equal treatment and opportunity for women. Other cultures view the female role in a different way. There is abuse and then there is tradition. As long as tradition doesn't manifest itself as abuse I don't see any reason to push a particular worldview on anyone.

You are so right. If a woman thinks she needs to stay at home, that's wonderfull. But noone has the right to force a woman to stay at home based soly on the fact that she is a woman. And if she choses to work, reguardless of the reason, she should have that right and she should receive equal pay. Using false pretenses of some sort of unequal equality is wrong. :grumbling

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

What you found a couple of feminist extremists? Well goodie goodie. :rant:
You of all people, I would not have guessed that you would define a whole group by a few. :grumbling :grumbling :grumbling
Maybe you should look in your own back yard. :rant: ;D

Hi Wilber,
I never said "all feminists", I said "many", so I was not attributing a view to all feminists at any point. There are many different feminist ideologies and movements. Hence, your comment that I was "defining a whole group by a few" is erroneous.


Hello Duskiness,

Deciding in advance about who am i, and what i can and can't do only because of fact that i may have PMS is unequal treatment.

The only person to decide who you are is yourself. But scientific research has revealed great insight in order to describe who you are, according to general trends to which there are always exceptions,

The fact of the matter is that differences between men and women extend beyond mere physical differences, there are psychological differences as well. They are not the same. For instance, Feminists would view the ratio of male:female in political governance as the consequence of discrimination, which does happen often, but at the same time research reveals that there should be no reason to expect proportional representation when both genders have inherent differences in capabilities, either excelling in some areas over the other. Provided that there are equal opportunities, there will still always be more female psychologists then male and more male construction workers than female. That's not to say that females are better, it is just that in general they excel in different areas.

Many feminists would have us ignore gender differences altogether which has been shown to harmful to society in many cases, such as education:
http://www.newsobserver.com/110/story/479905.html

Peace

[wilberhum]

Again:

There are functions that more men can do better than most women, but there are some women that can do the function better than most men.

Scientific research is not based on the individual. We should not base rules for an individual based on the average.
Anything different than total equality is discrimination.
Discrimination is evil.
Maybe some of you just a different "Moral Compuss" than me.
So if you think gender discrimination is good, my advise, get a different compuss.

[S_87]

:sl:

i think the west should worry about liberating their own women before anything :rolleyes:

[libyanhero]

virtually everyone is against Islam and they are all proud of it because they are fighting terrorism,liberating oppressed women,etc.Its sooooooooooooooooo cute,right?

http://www.cairchicago.org/mediamoni...=mm_ct02012006


Removed comment that some members found offensive.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1300

hahaha.

Post more if you find more.

cute? fight Islam as much as you want in the end you will be the losers

[Fishman]

:sl:

i think the west should worry about liberating their own women before anything :rolleyes:

:sl:
In the West, freedom often means 'freedom to...'. According to our history teacher, this is a perspective typical of the right-wing. The other perspective is 'Freedom from...', which is the one your using. This is more common to left-wingers.
:w:

[strider]

womens right ok...why do women get oppressed through culture right...
religion teaches women to be equal to men...feminist they are tooo extreme in the fact that they want to be better than men or suprior than men...society has changed alot from back inthe old days and i can tell u women now adays can do what they want ....yes being a sociology student has helped me alot about the society we live in today...all these feminists want is more right than men...n i dont see why they actually want that because women are having evry oportunity to actually build up on their career path etc....and i have a mind to cristise right as i am socilogy student after all...what do these women want ...do they want to take the role of men[bredwinner] and men take over the role of women[instrumental role]... yes in other parts of the country u do have that oppression of women not being able to be free beause of male dominate society..but u cannot blame the men for that its purely culture..not islam what so ever..islam lets women do alot of things as long its with in the islamic law...

n my socilogy teacher...RUBBISH..*puuuhhh*...N i came out with an A grade in my exam..ok...feminsts i understand...they go to far with it..i do understand them in some issues...but i can hosly today in society women are free..

You don't necessarily have to understand the material you are studying in order to pass an exam. I'm glad you got the A but unfortunately, you don't have the knowledge to show for it because you are wrong on so many accounts.

Feminists did not start out to be seen as superior to men! They lived in a society where the woman was literally a second class citizen and decided something had to be done. They wanted EQUAL rights. Culture, religious ideology, whatever. Why they were seen to be of such a low social class is another issue entirely and you will find that both religion and culture will play a role.

It was only a couple of decades ago was sex discrimination outlawed and women were given the vote. Women are STILL today in what you see to be a 'free society for women' fighting to be seen as equals in the workplace and actually get their employers to implement the laws in place! Yes, todays society is more free than it was 100 years ago for women, but i doubt much of that would have happened if it hadn't been for the feminist movement.

[Fishman]

You don't necessarily have to understand the material you are studying in order to pass an exam. I'm glad you got the A but unfortunately, you don't have the knowledge to show for it because you are wrong on so many accounts.

Feminists did not start out to be seen as superior to men! They lived in a society where the woman was literally a second class citizen and decided something had to be done. Culture, religious ideology, whatever. Why they were seen to be of such a low social class is another issue entirely and you will find that both religion and culture will play a role.

It was only a couple of decades ago was sex discrimination outlawed and women were given the vote. Women are STILL today in what you see to be a 'free society for women' fighting to be seen as equals in the workplace and actually get their employers to implement the laws in place! Yes, todays society is more free than it was 100 years ago for women, but i doubt much of that would have happened if it hadn't been for the feminist movement.

:sl:
I agree. Some feminism is good, and has done many things for the equality of women. But what I object to is the arrogant feminists who say that religion should not interfere with a woman's life. These people are saying one of two things. Either they believe that women are superior to men and that Allaah (swt)'s commandments don't apply to them, or that Islam was invented by men. In the former case, they are extremely arrogant, and in the latter, they are simply religious extremists who try to covertly push their befiefs on others.
:w:

[lavikor201]

:sl:

i think the west should worry about liberating their own women before anything :rolleyes:

Would you care to elaborate how women in the west are not "Liberated"?

[Fishman]

Would you care to elaborate how women in the west are not "Liberated"?

:sl:
Nobody is free in the West. The capitalists control everything, creating a consumerist society. The women are especially vunerable, and things like fashion have been made by men so that they get the money of women. Women pierce holes in their body, spend thousands on cosmetics and have gel implanted into themselves in order to please men.
:w:

[wilberhum]

:sl:
Nobody is free in the West. The capitalists control everything, creating a consumerist society. The women are especially vunerable, and things like fashion have been made by men so that they get the money of women. Women pierce holes in their body, spend thousands on cosmetics and have gel implanted into themselves in order to please men.
:w:

Oh wouldn't it be nice to live in a perfect world. :hiding: :grumbling

[lavikor201]

Nobody is free in the West. The capitalists control everything, creating a consumerist society.

The capitalists aren't a royal family that have all the power, or a ditator who opresses his people like what we know of in some part of the world. Anyone can be a capatalist. It just depends on how well your buissness does ect. In reality, the consumers control the capatalists because the capitalists depend on the consumers so you have it all wrong.

The women are especially vunerable, and things like fashion have been made by men so that they get the money of women.

Many things like "fashion" have been created by men, but the point is that the women have the choice to wear the fashions or to not where them, unlike the very strict dresscode many have in other parts of the world.

Women pierce holes in their body, spend thousands on cosmetics and have gel implanted into themselves in order to please men.

All women do not spend thousands of dollars on there bodies to please men. That is naive, to think that, but since we are discussing it, is it not freedom or liberation that gives them the CHOICE to decide if they want to or not. It isn't like some man is forcing them to make choices like that, and it isn't like some parts of the world which they have no choices. But excuse me for playing devils advocate.

[wilberhum]

On many occasions I have said the concept of Superiority is the easiest sell in the world and there are millions who are willing to buy.

It is not surprising that some men out there buy male superiority.

Misogynistic men have been finding so called “Valid Reasons” to keep women down since there were more than two men.

I said my piece. I'm off for the day :playing:
To some: Enjoy your misogynistc discrimination. :grumbling :grumbling

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum:

Well, I for one, am extremely thankful that Allah, swt, knew the value and equality of women to men so much so that He preserved our right of equality in the Qur'an. No longer were women pieces of disposable property, no longer could baby girls be buried alive, no longer could men take and keep our property...we were raised up to even standards 1400 years ago. We were given all the rights many other women had to fight for and, in some cases, are still fighting for.

The definition of equality can vary depending on who you are talking to. Do I want men to treat me as they treat other men? No, I don't. I like having the door opened for me, I love knowing my husband will care about me and protect me. Does that mean I am unable to open a door or care and protect myself? Of course not. Do I want my opinion to carry the same weight as my male counterpart? Of course. Do I want the right to own my own property and not be treated as property? Definitely. Do I want to be able to vote for the government I feel will best serve society? Absolutely. Do I want the right to be educated with the same high standards available to men? Yes! These are only a few examples of what Islam gave to women.

Whether anyone likes it or not, men and women are different. There are always exceptions to these differences, but different we are. Men, as a general rule, are physically stronger. Women, as a general rule, are more nurturing. Therefore, Islam has made us equal in our contributions to society but gave us different responsiblities in other areas. For example, because of the nurturing character of women, they are responsible for the care of children and the home. Feminists don't often recognize the importance of this role for women. What greater contribution to society than to choose to raise our next generation? This is not something to be frowned upon, it is a choice that should be applauded and respected. Men have the responsiblity of providing for their family. Is this so wrong? A man willing to work hard to feed his wife and children, clothe them and provide housing should also be applauded and respected. The husband and wife work together to build a strong family unit....different in function, but equal in importance.

Some feminists look at this situation as degrading towards women and this, in my opinion, is where the feminist movement goes too far. When they fight for the right to vote, the right to own property, etc., they are right to do so as this is a basic right for all people regardless of gender. Equal pay for equal work? This should be a given. A man and women who are equally qualified and given the exact same job should receive the exact same pay with the exact same benefits. However, let's look at the reality of such a situation. Let's assume both the man and woman have children. The man supports his stay at home wife and children. The woman contributes financially to support her family. When their children gets the flu...who is more apt to stay home? The vast majority of the time, it will be the woman who will care for the sick child. When the child has an appointment with a doctor or specialist...who will be more apt to take the child? When the school calls because a child has been injured or became sick...who will be more likely to leave work to go home? When the caregiver suddenly cancels at the last minute...which one is more likely to not to go to work that day?

It's not that men are incapable of caring for a child, there are many wonderful fathers out there, but that doesn't change the fact that the responsibility of caring for children, generally falls on the woman. So, with all this extra time away from work, who is really being treated unfairly? The man spends more hours at work and receives his same pay and benefits. The woman spends less hours at work and receives the same pay and benefits. Does this mean women shouldn't work? Of course not. Does this mean she, as an employee is less valuable? Definitely not. But, she made the choice to be a working mom and running into overdrive to juggle both becomes her responsibility, not the employer's nor her other, equally qualified male counterpart's.

So, things aren't always so "equal" in all situations.

Alhamdulillah, Islam makes the distinction easy for us and defines our roles that are different, but equally important.

Remember, this example is of a man and women who are equal in all aspects of job performance. It is not about impoverished families, single parents, etc. Not all things can be equal, because quite frankly, life is not equal and there are always exceptions to the rules. But, what I tried to show in my example is that even when things are apparently EQUAL, the reality is...they are not.

wa'alaikum salam,
Hana

[snakelegs]

I think if the women would have been presidents :) would have been much more peace in the world. - would rule the peace

i don't think this is necessarily true at all. look at condoliza rice, a black woman. does she have a different mentality simply because she has dark skin and is a female?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

lol tania you must think all women are pure or something, trust me theres women versions of bush out there :p

[Bittersteel]

to western men(not the women)-come to Bangladesh see all the oppression by men on their women,show these oppression to me and then lecture me about women's rights.

I don't like feminists in Bangladesh.Becuz everytime they talk about women's rights they abuse the prophet(PBUH).

They hate women, don't they?

Muslim and secular feminists pity one another. It is time they realised they have much common ground

Arzu Merali
Friday June 21, 2002
The Guardian

"It must be terrible having to wear all that," a friend of mine was told last December as she attended a meeting to discuss the future of Afghanistan, particularly its women - "all that" being some baggy clothing and a headscarf.

"Not particularly," she retorted, putting an abrupt end both to the conversation and to the prospect of building bridges between Muslim and secular feminists.

My friend is the founder of an NGO dedicated to penal reform. A convert to Islam, she is as British and as white as the participant who so earnestly assumed she was a victim of the Taliban and in need of liberation. No doubt the woman meant well, but no amount of good intentions justifies the way that she, like many others, berates Islam for embodying all things anti-women. This misconception predates the Rushdie era - indeed, so oppressed were we deemed to be in the 80s that even an illicit affair with Ricky Butcher in EastEnders provided an avenue of liberation.


The Islamic Human Rights Commission receives case after case of employers and educators using this image of the downtrodden Muslim woman to excuse discrimination. Muslim women are denied many opportunities on the assumption that they will - if not on a whim then by force - get married, or have many children. Or they face the horrendous dilemma of having to choose between employment and their Islamic garb.

Muslim women have become an absolute symbol of oppression, and distorted images of them permeate news coverage. While Daisy Cutters began to thunder down on Afghans last year, journalists from across the political spectrum - from Boris Johnson in the Telegraph to Polly Toynbee on these pages - maintained that it was Islam that oppressed Afghan women. Beware Muslims, they screamed in their unlikely unanimity. They hate women, don't they?

As soon as they turn their attentions to Islam, commentators become missionaries. Muslim women must be saved from a religion that reviles, objectifies and veils them. Everything is proof of this. Afghan women had to wear the head-to-toe burka (although it turns out they did not); were not allowed to work (although they did); and could not vote (nor could men under Mullah Omar's regime).

Even an Iranian (yes, Iranian) movie has become part of the iconography of the campaign to rescue the Afghan and, by extension, Islamic woman. Mohsen Makhmalbaf's Kandahar has been held up as a critique of Islam and its treatment of women. The fact that it may actually be an appraisal of the Taliban's prejudices is a subtlety grasped only by a few. It is almost impossible to find a mainstream critique of the horror of the Taliban that is not itself an Islamophobic diatribe. Muslims, who could provide such a critique, are left out of the debate. Their reactions might as well not exist.

The cartoonish realisation of long-held prejudices in the Taliban's Afghanistan has given succour to an anti-Islamic clamour that the experiences of "western" and "Muslim" women are utterly distinct. While western women are assumed to have, or at least be approaching, equality with men, Muslim women are simply the victims of terror and oppression. So unfettered are western women in this scenario that they are what, according to Johnson, "Islamic terrorists" are really afraid of.

But this language of liberation disguises an exclusionary discourse. Conversions in the west are increasing and more women than men opt for the faith. Perhaps, the argument goes, they are not able to see how oppressive their choice is. Donning the headscarf as a means of negotiating modernity invites contempt for Muslim women's non-conformity to a single vision of female emancipation. "No letters please from British women who have taken the veil and claim it's liberating," Polly Toynbee wrote not so long ago. "It is their right in a tolerant society to wear anything, including rubber fetishes." Either insane or masochistic, the motives and beliefs of Muslim women are voiced by everybody except themselves.

The polarisation and misrepresentation works both ways, however. Marginalised Muslims have accused liberal society of objectifying, reviling and unveiling women. Western society, they charge, is pornographic, voyeuristic and exploitative. The gender pay gap is shocking. None of this would happen in a truly Islamic society. Women's financial independence and property rights are absolute in Islam. No woman is considered a commodity and pornographers would face punishments.

While the gap between Muslims and the west is widening the most striking feature of each other's critiques of their treatment of women is the lack of dissimilarity. Violence, workplace discrimination, educational opportunity and a desire for basic respect from men are universal issues.

Whether we are western, Muslim, both or neither, we must wake up to the possibility that what we see as problematic for women is much the same whoever and wherever we are. Plastered over billboards, or banished from view, women are subjugated by patriarchy. Demeaning Islam excludes the voices of Islamic women and that liberates no one.

&#183; Arzu Merali is director of research for the Islamic Human Rights Commission.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/S...741269,00.html

[Pk_#2]

to western men(not the women)-come to Bangladesh see all the oppression by men on their women,show these oppression to me and then lecture me about women's rights.

I don't like feminists in Bangladesh.Becuz everytime they talk about women's rights they abuse the prophet(PBUH).



http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/S...741269,00.html

:O jazakhala for article .....

Leave Tania alone! her replies cute mashaAllah, some people are so rude on this thread astaghfirullah!

I think everyone should use the word 'some' :)

-'some feminists' think blah blah blah

-'some women' say blah blah blah

:offended:

imsad ok Thanks!



:rollseyes

[S_87]

Would you care to elaborate how women in the west are not "Liberated"?

Peace

coupla examples. a woman is paid less for a job that a man is also doing. thats free?
a woman hits a glass roof in the career world. thats fine?

[strider]

Peace

coupla examples. a woman is paid less for a job that a man is also doing. thats free?
a woman hits a glass roof in the career world. thats fine?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but i would just like to make a point, inshaAllah. Of course it isn't fair that women aren't seen to be of the same worth as men in some sectors of society. But this is precisely the thing that feminists(btw men can be 'feminists' too) campaign for!

[wilberhum]

I know this wasn't directed to be, but i would just like to make a point, inshaAllah. Of course it isn't fair that women aren't seen to be of the same worth as men in some sectors of society. But this is precisely the thing that feminists(btw men can be 'feminists' too) campaign for!

I never thought of my self as a feminist but I guess I am. ;D :uuh: :playing:

[IzakHalevas]

coupla examples. a woman is paid less for a job that a man is also doing. thats free?
a woman hits a glass roof in the career world. thats fine?

Actually there are laws in the United States, and other western countries pertaining to womens salaries. What you just said is illegal in the USA and the Western world. Is it illegal in the Middle East to pay women less?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I never thought of my self as a feminist but I guess I am. ;D :uuh: :playing:

sheesh, islam is the best when it comes to equal rights, no feminism required !!

[wilberhum]

sheesh, islam is the best when it comes to equal rights, no feminism required !!

Different is not equal. But that is a whole different topic.

[Pk_#2]

Were equal aiight, DUN MESH :D

no need to get all personal 'wilberham' :)

Jeez what has happened to the so called friendly forum ?...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Different is not equal. But that is a whole different topic.

different is indeed still equal

u wud let an adult ride a car but you would not let a kid ride a car, however that is only out of consideration for their differences. both are still equal !


Is my ideology flawed?

[wilberhum]

A man walks a dog on a leash.
Is the man protecting or controlling the dog?

Either way the dog is not an equal.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ animals and humans are totally different, lol we're neva gonna get anywhere with this !

[wilberhum]

^ animals and humans are totally different, lol we're neva gonna get anywhere with this !

But you get the idea. Many think men and wormen do not have equal rights.
One man said he thout women were great, every man should own one.:grumbling

[IbnAbdulHakim]

But you get the idea. Many think men and wormen do not have equal rights.
One man said he thout women were great, every man should own one.:grumbling

individual thoughts shouldnt bother you so much, woman as a whole are respected by many men and held as great companions/wives/mothers etc etc. Thats what they are :)

[wilberhum]

individual thoughts shouldnt bother you so much, woman as a whole are respected by many men and held as great companions/wives/mothers etc etc. Thats what they are :)

But gender discrimination does bother me. Alot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All discrimination bothers me.
Legalized discrimination is the worst. :grumbling :grumbling :grumbling

[S_87]

Actually there are laws in the United States, and other western countries pertaining to womens salaries. What you just said is illegal in the USA and the Western world. Is it illegal in the Middle East to pay women less?

its illegal in the western world?? how come its still happening then ^o)
im not sure about the arab world but from what i have read a level 5 is salary is the same for both men and women...

strider i know that :) i was replying to something else

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

You don't necessarily have to understand the material you are studying in order to pass an exam. I'm glad you got the A but unfortunately, you don't have the knowledge to show for it because you are wrong on so many accounts.

Feminists did not start out to be seen as superior to men! They lived in a society where the woman was literally a second class citizen and decided something had to be done. They wanted EQUAL rights. Culture, religious ideology, whatever. Why they were seen to be of such a low social class is another issue entirely and you will find that both religion and culture will play a role.

It was only a couple of decades ago was sex discrimination outlawed and women were given the vote. Women are STILL today in what you see to be a 'free society for women' fighting to be seen as equals in the workplace and actually get their employers to implement the laws in place! Yes, todays society is more free than it was 100 years ago for women, but i doubt much of that would have happened if it hadn't been for the feminist movement.

OOOO didnt realise i had a reply...ok...

it doesnt matter if i understand or dont understand the materials i study at the end of the day i know what i know ...my understanding is very clear..even if i was an A grade student or an U grade student these feminsts go too far...

'Suprior to men' yes thats how i see it why because how much power do these women want..if we open our eyes...actually look into islam men/women!!..EQUAL...right?? coorect me if am wrong...culture plays a massive role here not religion because the stereotype of men thinking women should be slaves at home..not be educated..not work etc...thats all based on culture..not islam...islam does not say women cannot work,they cant get educated there is alot of free will..like i mentioned before as long its not breaking the islamic rulings then evrything is fine...

doesnt it matter if women are seen low in social class in this society...NO why at the end of the day we here to serve our lord All Mighty not the society..if our status is high in Allah[swt] [eyes]..then why bother about the role in women in society theres loads of other things women can do to get on in life..they dont always have to be in the spot light..n to be heard all the time...humbleness...is what we should be striving for not power...

equal rights we have sister in islam...and i dont know how much these women want but them do what they want...yes i thank the feminsts for leting women work etc.....but we have more important things to worry about i.e. akirah...we should think how can we serve our lord not the society...at the end of the day..this world is only temporary..

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

to western men(not the women)-come to Bangladesh see all the oppression by men on their women,show these oppression to me and then lecture me about women's rights.

I don't like feminists in Bangladesh.Becuz everytime they talk about women's rights they abuse the prophet(PBUH).

Astagfirullallah...that is sooo BAAD!!!:offended: :offended:

[KAding]

I like feminists. I think I am one myself. I can never quite understand why in so many societies women have to suffer because men can't seem to control themselves. I mean, since we're on an Islamic forum: I can't for the live of it understand why women have to cover up because essentially men are unable to control their sexual urges. Surely, the solution in modern society would be somekind of male chastity belt, instead of demanding modesty from women?

I honestly believe the world would generally be a better place if more women would be in positions of power. I think masculine concepts like 'honor' and their propensity for aggressive behavior are having a negative influence on society as a whole.

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

^^^it'll be scary if women ruled the world..:offended:

modesty!!!women/ men should be covered up...i do not knw the exact quoting in the quran mayb some else can help here....:rollseyes

sexual desires...its the evil with in us that we need to fight!!

[strider]

OOOO didnt realise i had a reply...ok...

it doesnt matter if i understand or dont understand the materials i study at the end of the day i know what i know ...my understanding is very clear..even if i was an A grade student or an U grade student these feminsts go too far...

'Suprior to men' yes thats how i see it why because how much power do these women want..if we open our eyes...actually look into islam men/women!!..EQUAL...right?? coorect me if am wrong...culture plays a massive role here not religion because the stereotype of men thinking women should be slaves at home..not be educated..not work etc...thats all based on culture..not islam...islam does not say women cannot work,they cant get educated there is alot of free will..like i mentioned before as long its not breaking the islamic rulings then evrything is fine...

doesnt it matter if women are seen low in social class in this society...NO why at the end of the day we here to serve our lord All Mighty not the society..if our status is high in Allah[swt] [eyes]..then why bother about the role in women in society theres loads of other things women can do to get on in life..they dont always have to be in the spot light..n to be heard all the time...humbleness...is what we should be striving for not power...

equal rights we have sister in islam...and i dont know how much these women want but them do what they want...yes i thank the feminsts for leting women work etc.....but we have more important things to worry about i.e. akirah...we should think how can we serve our lord not the society...at the end of the day..this world is only temporary..

Why are you bringing Islam into this particular posting? Firstly, you fail to understand what feminists stand for then you push that Islam is what's right. Yes, of course Islam liberated women and gave them rights to be seen as equals in a society which didn't see them to be as such. Many of the things feminists stand for Islam stands for two, yet SubhanAllah you still see them to be a source of embarassment. The minority may go overboard in approach to the issue but of course that would have been highlighted in your sociology class.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

^^^^me veiw and ur view totally different why should i care what the society sees the women as..at the end of the day i am a muslim and i will say what islam says not the society...

forgive me if am aguing sis..my understanding is clear...i do not need to eloborate any more...

[strider]

^^^^me veiw and ur view totally different why should i care what the society sees the women as..at the end of the day i am a muslim and i will say what islam says not the society...

forgive me if am aguing sis..my understanding is clear...i do not need to eloborate any more...

Why should you care that a man maybe paid more than you? Or that you may be pushed aside by some boss who thinks women are not capable of running affairs at the top level? Yes, it makes no sense whatsoever to care. Afterall you are only a woman who maybe adversly affected in society, but nothing to worry about!

:rollseyes

[wilberhum]

^^^^me veiw and ur view totally different why should i care what the society sees the women as..at the end of the day i am a muslim and i will say what islam says not the society...

forgive me if am aguing sis..my understanding is clear...i do not need to eloborate any more...

Maybe you don't care how society treates you. Most do.

[wilberhum]

it'll be scary if women ruled the world

Boy would it be scary. What would we do without all the wars. :hiding: :hiding:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I like feminists. I think I am one myself. I can never quite understand why in so many societies women have to suffer because men can't seem to control themselves. I mean, since we're on an Islamic forum: I can't for the live of it understand why women have to cover up because essentially men are unable to control their sexual urges. Surely, the solution in modern society would be somekind of male chastity belt, instead of demanding modesty from women?

Women all around the world "cover up", just to different extents, as different societies have different perceptions of what constitutes 'modest clothing'. Women do not cover themselves because of men, they cover themselves out of modesty and dignity. I am sure you do not live in a nude society - so does that mean you think that every woman in your society is wearing clothes only because of the desires of men?! It is against the law in MANY western societies to appear nude in public, so the west has limits on their dress as well.

Although women in the West are allowed to dress as they like, they do not have absolute freedom in doing so to the point that they may walk around topless or bottomless. However, wearing just a bra-like garment with a tight mini-skirt is completely acceptable in many parts of Western society. One wonders how this distinction is made, what mankind’s reference point in doing so should be, and who decides why exposing these private parts completely is a criminal offence, yet covering them slightly is a sign of liberation for women. (Haneef James Oliver, Sacred Freedom, p. 53)

In Islam, the limits for modesty in dress are those set by God, not the guys behind the fashion industry in the west. It is fallacious for you to assume that those women who cover up in other societies do so only because of the desires of men. In fact, the Qur'an first commands men to lower their gaze and control their desires before it commands women to observe the modest dress outlined (Qur'an 24:30-31). These verses show that the Qur'an demands modesty from BOTH genders, not just women as you erroneously mentioned above. As well, modest clothing has been considered a part of the professional atmosphere in schools, businesses, courts, etc. in all societies.

If we want to talk about oppression of women, let us look at their exploitation in western media and its effects:

A study shows that when men are shown in the background of a video, they are most often fully clothed. But when women are in the background, approximately half the time they are dressed in ways that expose or focus on their breasts and rear ends (ChildrenNow, Boys to Men: Media Messages About Masculinity, 1999).

A study of video games found that the few female characters in those games are often highly sexualized—wearing tight revealing clothing and having unrealistically large breasts and distorted small waists. (Girls and Gaming, Children Now; 2000.)

In a 1992 study of female students at Stanford University, 70% of women reported feeling worse about themselves and their bodies after looking at magazines. (A British study also had a similar finding.) Roughly 50% of teen girls in the U.S. read teen or adult fashion magazines. (Body Wars)

Studies show that all plastic surgeries among teens increased by almost 50% from 1996-1998 mostly for girls (newswecanuse.org; 1/9/01)

• In a survey of girls 9 and 10 years old, 40% have tried to lose weight, according to an ongoing study funded by the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute.
• In a study on fifth graders, 10 year old girls and boys told researchers they were dissatisfied with their own bodies after watching a music video by Britney Spears or a clip from the TV show "Friends".
• A 1996 study found that the amount of time an adolescent watches soaps, movies and music videos is associated with their degree of body dissatisfaction and desire to be thin.
• One study reports that at age thirteen, 53% of American girls are "unhappy with their bodies." This grows to 78% by the time girls reach seventeen.

The American research group Anorexia Nervosa & Related Eating Disorders, Inc. says that one out of every four college-aged women uses unhealthy methods of weight control—including fasting, skipping meals, excessive exercise, laxative abuse, and self-induced vomiting. And the Canadian Fitness and Lifestyle Research Institute warns that weight control measures are being taken by girls as young as nine. American statistics are similar. In 2003, Teen magazine reported that 35 per cent of girls 6 to 12 years old have been on at least one diet, and that 50 to 70 per cent of normal weight girls believe they are overweight.
Media activist Jean Kilbourne concludes that, "Women are sold to the diet industry by the magazines we read and the television programs we watch, almost all of which make us feel anxious about our weight."


•Video games and other media sometimes use prostitutes as characters that are targets for the male hero. In a game from the Duke Nukem series, prostitutes are forced to strip and are then killed. In the number one selling video game for 2001, Grand Auto Theft III, the player can clobber a prostitute with a baseball bat with a new game technique that allows the player to feel he or she is really doing this. In other popular media, prostitutes and strippers are often included to add scenes of female breasts and rear-ends on camera.These offer viewers images of women and female sexuality associated with exchanging sex for money, and sex with violence.

•In advertising, women’s bodies are used sexually to sell products more often than men’s. A 1997 advertising study showed that white women in roughly 62% of ads were "scantily clad", in bikinis, underwear, etc, while the same was true for 53% of black women. For men, the figure was only 25%. Women were also represented in stances of powerlessness more often, and black women were likely to be featured in animal prints, in predatory poses. (Racial and Gender Biases in Magazine Advertising, S. Plous and D. Neptune, 1997, Psychology of Womens Quarterly)

After being exposed to sexually explicit advertisements, both men and women showed greater gender role stereotyping, rape myth acceptance, and acceptance of sexual aggression against women"

-Research Study (Mcay and Covell, 1997) Sex Roles: A Journal of Research

"Exposure to pictures of fashion models from popular women's magazines resulted in negative body image and increased weight concern."

-Research Study (Posavac, Posavac, & Posavac, 1998) Sex Roles: A Journal of Research

Perhaps if feminists aim to be the true advocates of women's rights they should turn their attention to the destructive mentality behind this exploitation first.

Regards

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Boy would it be scary. What would we do without all the wars. :hiding: :hiding:

Its funny that you and KAding are operating under the same stereotypical generalizations of women that feminists seek to eliminate! As Snakelegs pointed out earlier, women are just as capable of contributing to military conflict. There are just as many racists, bigoted, hateful women as men. Secondly, many wars are fought for the liberation of the oppressed and the preservation of security, hence pacifism in such cases would be destructive. The ruler must be strong willed and not easily manipulated in order to maintain law and order.

[wilberhum]

Its funny that you and KAding are operating under the same stereotypical generalizations of women that feminists seek to eliminate! As Snakelegs pointed out earlier, women are just as capable of contributing to military conflict. There are just as many racists, bigoted, hateful women as men. Secondly, many wars are fought for the liberation of the oppressed and the preservation of security, hence pacifism in such cases would be destructive. The ruler must be strong willed and not easily manipulated in order to maintain law and order.

I wonder how many stats I could gather showing that men are more violent than women. But then you already know that.

[IzakHalevas]

The ruler must be strong willed and not easily manipulated in order to maintain law and order.

Are you suggesting that females are not strong willed, and are easily manipulated?

[Fishman]

I wonder how many stats I could gather showing that men are more violent than women. But then you already know that.

:sl:
The reson why there have been more violent male leaders than female leaders is because there have not been many female leaders! The female leaders that are famous have been just as violent and warlike as men:

• Elizabeth I destroyed the Spanish Armada, then sent her own (failed and not well-known) armada to conquer Spain
• Condi is certainly just as warlike as the other Neocons
• Boudiccia burnt down Roman London
• Cleopatra went to war with the Romans
• Joan of Arc kicked the British out of France

:w:

[wilberhum]

:sl:
The reson why there have been more violent male leaders than female leaders is because there have not been many female leaders! The female leaders that are famous have been just as violent and warlike as men:

• Elizabeth I destroyed the Spanish Armada, then sent her own (failed and not well-known) armada to conquer Spain
• Condi is certainly just as warlike as the other Neocons
• Boudiccia burnt down Roman London
• Cleopatra went to war with the Romans
• Joan of Arc kicked the British out of France

:w:

Oh Fishman, I thought better of you. Five examples. Of course women can be violent. Violence is not a male chiastic, it is a human chiastic. Do I need to produce states on violent crimes to show that men are more violent than women? Surely you are not that narrow minded. :hiding: :hiding:

[Muezzin]

I'm all for the feminism that says women and men should receive equal pay for equal work, equal enfranchisement of both men and women, etc. That's excellent, fair and just. It's one of the good things about living in the UK.

However, I despise the so-called 'feminism' which allows women to subjugate men as some sort of revenge. That is unfair, unjust and unthinkable as black people enslaving white people.

[wilberhum]

I'm all for the feminism that says women and men should receive equal pay for equal work, equal enfranchisement of both men and women, etc. That's excellent, fair and just. It's one of the good things about living in the UK.

However, I despise the so-called 'feminism' which allows women to subjugate men as some sort of revenge. That is unfair, unjust and unthinkable as black people enslaving white people.

However, I despise anyone who wants to subjugate anybody.

[Muezzin]

However, I despise anyone who wants to subjugate anybody.

As do I. True equality is not about arguing that 'men are more violent than women' or 'women are more violent than men' - ideally, nobody would be violent.

It's sad that us mortals have yet to learn this.

[Fishman]

Oh Fishman, I thought better of you. Five examples. Of course women can be violent. Violence is not a male chiastic, it is a human chiastic. Do I need to produce states on violent crimes to show that men are more violent than women? Surely you are not that narrow minded. :hiding: :hiding:

:sl:
I can't think of many notable woman leaders. The ones that I can think of are just as violent as men. there are exceptions to this, such as the Queen of England, but most of them are not very powerful anyway.

Besides, I wasn't saying that women are just as violent as men. I agree that male hormones can make people more agressive. But I am arguing against people's ideas that a 'girlocracy' would be more peaceful than the current system. Power corrupts people, whatever their gender. And, unfortunately, agressive leaders tend to come to power, not the pacifists, because agressive people are usually agressive speakers, and firey retoric is a very effective electorial tool. If Hitler spoke nicely, people would have figured out that he was speaking rubbish. But he didn't, he marched around shouting his point out, which swayed the masses.
:w:

[Kamilah]

Muslim feminists are such an embarrassment to the ummah, they bring shame upon themselves and to the rest of us, they just dont have a clue where to begin understanding the true beauty of Islam and how Allah has made it easy for us..yet the go on to take up positions in this ever fleeting duniyah, what do they get out of this? apart from their hayaa being lost and their sins being increased...may Allah save the muslimaat from such deceptions and help us all adhere to the correct islamic teachings and guide us all on the straight path... Ameen.

[IzakHalevas]

Muslim feminists are such an embarrassment to the ummah, they bring shame upon themselves and to the rest of us, they just dont have a clue where to begin understanding the true beauty of Islam and how Allah has made it easy for us..yet the go on to take up positions in this ever fleeting duniyah, what do they get out of this? apart from their hayaa being lost and their sins being increased...may Allah save the muslimaat from such deceptions and help us all adhere to the correct islamic teachings and guide us all on the straight path... Ameen.

Judging a group by the actions of a few eh? Pretty odd, since you probably do not like generalizations made towards you.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Ameen to the dua's sis

Judging a group by the actions of a few eh? Pretty odd, since you probably do not like generalizations made towards you.

if a muslim calls him/herself a feminist then they have already lost the plot and lost the islamic way. She has made no generalisation but just stated facts, you should really try understand better before accusing her next time :).


:peace:

[wilberhum]

Ameen to the dua's sis

if a muslim calls him/herself a feminist then they have already lost the plot and lost the islamic way. She has made no generalisation but just stated facts, you should really try understand better before accusing her next time :).


:peace:

Feminism: Belief in women's rights: belief in the need to secure rights and opportunities for women equal to those of men, or a commitment to securing these.

It is interesting to know that female equality is un-Islamic.

[strider]

wilberhum, it isn't. It is a shame that some people have a warped definition of what it means to be a feminist in their heads.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

It is interesting to know that female equality is un-Islamic.

welldone word twisting dude.


how many times must i say men and women are not equal however each of them is treated with justice. Men have their strengths and women have their strengths and islam teaches us to both use our strengths for the better and not be like each other. it teaches a perfect balance, for further information read the posts by Ahmed.

In islam there is perfect equity, in what other religion can a women stay covered yet so content?

[wilberhum]

men and women are not equal

Oh ya I get the point. Horrable women wanting equality.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Oh ya I get the point. Horrable women wanting equality.

lol, your understanding is totally messed up.

They are both given their rights and have equity BUT calling them both equal is implying that they both have the same physique, same strength, same hormones/mind/body/feelings etc etc. No they are both completely different, and islam teaches us how to teach each one according to there strengths!


didnt i just mention that, please read next time :)

[wilberhum]

lol, your understanding is totally messed up.

They are both given their rights and have equity BUT calling them both equal is implying that they both have the same physique, same strength, same hormones/mind/body/feelings etc etc. No they are both completely different, and islam teaches us how to teach each one according to there strengths!


didnt i just mention that, please read next time :)

But I don't live in Islam, I live in the US.
In this and most countries, discrimination is illegal.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

But I don't live in Islam, I live in the US.
In this and most countries, discrimination is illegal.

what do u mean by discrimination??

[Kamilah]

Woman’s Cause
Shaykh Saud Ash-Shuraym
23, Rabee‘ul-aakhir 1425 (11, June 2004)

All praise is due to Allaah, Lord of all the worlds. Peace and blessings be upon the Messenger, his household and companions.

Fellow Muslims! Allaah has made man and woman the foundation of mankind. No one can live without the other. If not, there would not have been procreation. That is why Allaah reminds us of this blessings when He says,

“It is He Who has created you from a single person (Adam), and (then) He has created from him his wife (Haww&#226;' (Eve)) in order that he might enjoy the pleasure of living with her.”

(Al-A‘raaf 7:189)


Woman is undoubtedly, the source of stability for man and the family, not to talk of her being the half of the society. It is she that also gives birth to the other half. It is as if she is the entire society.

Dear brethren! The cause of woman is an all-important topic that is inevitable for the contemporary Muslim society. It is at the same time, a very delicate topic that is prone to errors, desires, strong environmental impacts and objective differences.

It is actually unfair to discuss woman and all matters relating to her in this short khutbah. But it is better than not saying anything at all about her.

We are saying this at a time that the woman issue has become the sole preoccupation of many especially in this time that the Ummah is facing kinds of injustices, oppression, poverty, ideological perversion and suppression from the enemies. Yet no tangible solution to this myriad of problems is seen in sight.

We are hereby calling on all those who are talking about woman’s cause to take the following factors into consideration in order to avoid going astray and innovating what Allaah has not permitted and what none of our righteous successors had not done.

One: It should be firmly borne in mind that the only source of determining the identity of both and female and deciding things they share in common and things in which they differ and the responsibilities of each of them is the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Messenger, and not men’s opinions and their desires. It should also be remembered that contradicting anything from the Qur’aan and the Sunnah is tantamount to challenging the One Who revealed Islaam. Allaah says,

“Do they then seek the judgement of (the Days of) Ignorance? And who is better in judgement than Allaah for a people who have firm Faith.”

(Al-Maaidah 5:50)

Therefore, there should be no way for a vicious twisting of Islaamic criteria and giving them other names, like calling woman’s modesty, bashfulness and covering an obsolete and unjustifiable tradition by which woman is repressed.

Two: All sincere and true followers of the religion of Islaam should stop those writers whose only intention is to attack the values of this Ummah or turn them into an object of derision at the hand of lust worshippers or those who hate what Allaah revealed. Those who use their pens and tongues to drown the ship of this Ummah and deceive the Muslims into believing that the only way to scientific, industrial and cultural progress lies in adopting Western experiment on women. The fact of the matter is that the no-Muslim countries who clamour for the so-called liberation of Muslim women and those who mimic them among other nations have, in reality, very little to show for what they clamour for. Realities in their own countries are a stark contradiction of the huge noise they make about the Muslim world. The highest achievement they achieved in their own countries regarding women liberation did not exceed electing few women into parliaments or appointing one or two as ministers, while deceiving the simple-minded people into a belief that the woman has achieved a lot in their own societies.

More surprising is the fact that, in the constitutions of some of these so-called developed countries, woman is forbidden from being head of state. What moral right do these countries then have to call for women liberation?

This should not however be surprising, for it seems that these infidel countries understood the following Prophetic statement more than the so-called Muslim advocates of women liberation. The Prophet said, “Any nation that appoints a woman as its leader will not succeed.” (Al-Bukhaaree)

In a version reported by Ahmad, the Messenger of Allaah said, “The men are ruined whenever they follow the women.”

Dear brethren! What the reality shows is that the greatest achievement of those countries in which women have been ‘liberated’ is that she has been turned into a humiliated commodity in brothels or images in musical clips or mere bodies displayed to advertise goods.

Three: Using the word ‘freedom’ or ‘liberation’ in every issue relating to women have become an instrument in the hands of ignorant, deluded and evil-intentioned people who seek to disintegrate the Muslims’ social cohesion. It has actually becomes a door through which the enemy throws his time bomb, because to the term ‘freedom’ has a magical way of deluding the masses especially the teenagers. The strangest thing is the three phases that the advocates of so-called women liberation want to use to liberate the woman from her self-enslavement through adherence to the teachings of Islaam.

The first phase is exemplified by their assertion that they are responsible for treating the problems that occur among the Muslims, and that no view would be accepted if it contradicts their own way of reasoning. Their proof for this is the wide intellectual and cultural difference that is between them and ordinary citizens.

In the second phase, they claim that their write-ups and essays indicate their sincerity to and sense of compassion for the Ummah, in that they are calling for truth and knowledge. They assert that knowledge is a product of freedom and that if there is no freedom from previous ideologies, the desired goal cannot be achieved.

In the third phase, these self-styled intellectuals establish that that everything should be subjected to free scientific research; and their word ‘everything’ exclude nothing, even our belief, teachings and our virtuous heritage.

These phases undoubtedly seem attractive to simple-minded individuals. But the sooner they know that they are like smoke released by the enemy to disguise their invasion the better.

Four: There is no society that toyed with the issue of woman and her values and cast doubt on the Islaamic regulations laid down for her protection and sought to undermine those qualities with which she is distinguished from and qualities with which man is distinguished from her except that the society incurred on itself evils and woes and Allaah afflicted it with what it is trying to escape from. The Messenger of Allaah was right when he said, “I have not left a fitnah for the men of my Ummah greater than women.” (Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim)

He also said, “Beware of this worldly life and beware of women, for the first fitnah faced by the children of Israel was in women.” (Muslim)

Brethren in faith! Let us recall the incidence of the famous Dhee Qaar Battle, which is one of the fiercest battles of pre-Islamic period. This battle was initiated because of a woman whom Chosroe wanted to marry and Nu‘maan refused to let him marry her. Another example was the Jewish conspiracy to remove hijaab from the head of a Muslim woman in the market of Banoo Qaynuqaa during the time of Allaah’s Messenger.

Five: The Islaamic religion will never accept extremism in matters relating to woman. Never will Islaam condone the woman being humiliated or relegated to the margins of life. Neither will it accept her being led to moral degeneration. Both paths are extreme. The Ummah should not tolerate the pessimistic bigots nor should it give a chance to those who toy with religious values.

The Muslim Ummah is not a nation that suppresses woman and deny her her rights, though some bigots may support their negative attitude to women with spurious hadeeths like, “Obeying a woman brings about a regret.” On the other hand, it should not allow those who seek to lure woman out of her nature through deceit and lies. These elements also support their deviated ideology with fake narrations like, “Take your religion from this humayraa [meaning: ‘Aaishah].”

The proper thing is to maintain a moderate stand, which is just and fair. Whatever has a proof from the Qur’aan and the Sunnah is the truth even if it followed by a single person, and whatever contradicts them is falsehood even if it followed by the vast majority.

It is also a big error to claim that conciliation could made between those who call woman to observe the proper Islaamic covering and those who call her to abandon the hijaab, to shamelessly expose herself and to do away with modesty. Allaah says about those who try to reconcile between these two groups,

“(They are) swaying between this and that, belonging neither to these nor to those; and he whom Allaah sends astray, you will not find for him a way (to the truth - Islaam).”

(An-Nisaa 4:143)

Fellow Muslims! Fear Allaah and beware of innovations for every innovation is heresy and every heresy is misguidance. Allaah says,

“O you who believe! Ward off from yourselves and your families a Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, over which are (appointed) angels stern (and) severe, who disobey not, (from executing) the Commands they receive from Allaah, but do that which they are commanded.”

(At-Tahreem 66:6)

Brethren in Islaam! The sixth factor is specially related to woman. Her job in this life and in the society is not based on enslaving her or exploiting her body. The woman rather has rights in the society and family. She has right to attend mosques, she has right to eliminate illiteracy, she has right to give and receive admonition and in receiving and imparting knowledge and education. She has right to enjoin virtues and forbid vices. She has right to improve herself whenever she has a job that is suitable for her naturally and religiously like in the fields of useful knowledge and righteous deeds. For the Ummah is in dire need of female Muslim teachers, Muslim female nurses and doctors and Muslim female writers. The woman herself needs to fill her head with knowledge and righteous sciences and not to strip her head and her body naked and to regard her religion with displeasure.

The job of the woman in the society shall remain critical and delicate, and no negligence or bitter experiment shall be tolerated on her. The entire society is also required to maintain honours and not to toy with them. The successful nation is the one capable of striking a balance between these noble goals for woman and the society’s needs. It does not put in a guilty cage nor does it leave her free to become prey to sins and immoralities.

The final factor, dear brethren, is that, it has to be made clear that a call for equality between male and female in all aspects of life is like a call for impossibility. The true Muslim believes that Allaah created both man and woman and created for each, peculiar qualities. He only made man excelled over woman with a degree. He says,

“And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allaah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.”

(Al-Baqarah 2:228)

Allaah distinguished man with prophethood, political leadership, administration of the law, leadership in prayer, fighting in the way of Allaah, marrying without a guardian, power of divorce, having double of what woman has in some cases of inheritance, the fact that the child carries man’s name, permission to marry up to four wives and the fact that his testimony equals that of two women.

Imaam Ahmad reported that Umm Salamah asked the Messenger of Allaah, “O Allaah’s Messenger, why do men engage in jihad and we [women] do not? Why are we apportioned the half of [of a male’s share] in inheritance?” Thereupon, Allaah revealed the verse:

“And wish not for the things in which Allaah has made some of you to excel others. For men there is reward for what they have earned, (and likewise) for women there is reward for what they have earned, and ask Allaah of His Bounty. Surely, Allaah is Ever All-Knower of everything.”

(An-Nisaa 4:32)

Al-Qurtubee said, “Man’s virtue over woman is clear for every wise person. Had there been no evidence for this besides a fact that she is created from man and that he is her origin and she is prevented from undertaking anything without his permission that would have been enough.”

Dear brethren! The excellence of man does not, however, mean looking down upon woman and discriminating against her. Nor does this mean that every man is better every woman. It is an established principle that declaring a thing as better than another does not mean degrading the latter. The Qur’aan is entirely the word of Allaah, yet the Messenger of Allaah said that ‘Aayah al-Kursiyy’ is the best verse in the Qur’aan, as reported by Muslim.

Also the Messengers and Prophets also excelled one another. Allaah says,

“We have preferred some of the Prophets above others.”

(Al-Israa 17:55)

This verse does not however mean that the status of the Messengers and the Prophets above whom others are preferred.

Fellow Muslims! Having mentioned evidences on men’s excellences over women, we are also asserting, in the light of the evidences of the Qur’aan and the Sunnah, that women are halves of men. They are equal to men in matters of belief and morals. They are equal to them in their entitlement to reward and punishment.

We are also asserting the falsehood and injustice of a statement being a male augments one’s scale of good deeds and that being a female decreases one’s scale of good deeds. This statement vividly contradicts the saying of Allaah,

“Verily, the most honourable of you with Allaah is most pious. Verily, Allaah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.”

(Al-Hujuraat 49:13)

Real life experiences have shown that woman can be better than many men as in the case of the mothers of the faithful and those who were after them. Being a male or female is not a criterion for weighing deeds on the Day of Resurrection. As femininity is not an imperfection for the sun so does masculinity is not a source of pride for the moon. And as the saying goes, a lioness in her jungle is better and stronger than a cock among the fowl.

Therefore, the fundamental rule in this matter lies in Allaah’s word that goes says,

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allaah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allaah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property).”

(An-Nisaa 4:34)

[wilberhum]

what do u mean by discrimination??

Discrimination: treating people differently through prejudice: unfair treatment of one person or group, usually because of prejudice about race, ethnicity, age, religion, or gender

If you don’t give a woman the same rights as a man because of her gender, that is gender discrimination.

No matter how you cut it, no matter how you try to justify it, it is gender discrimination.

[Kamilah]

If you don’t give a woman the same rights as a man because of her gender, that is gender discrimination.

No matter how you cut it, no matter how you try to justify it, it is gender discrimination.

all the more reason for you to take that issue with YOUR government, the feminists are ever growing in your so called "liberated" country

God -willingly the Muslim world is clear on it's stance regarding women.

[wilberhum]

all the more reason for you to take that issue with YOUR government, the feminists are ever growing in your so called "liberated" country

God -willingly the Muslim world is clear on it's stance regarding women.

:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
We have seen the how the "Muslim World" has delt with equality.

[Kamilah]

:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:

care to express your response in words...??:rollseyes

[wilberhum]

care to express your response in words...??:rollseyes

As in my edited post:

We have seen the how the "Muslim World" has delt with equality.

[Kamilah]

As in my edited post:

glad you find it amusing Wilberhum, I hope you can take inspiration from Islam, it is a complete way of life..and Allah knows best.:D

[bint_muhammed]

As Salaamu Alayku,

Lol I know what they are :D

someone told me that the other day and I was like...

:? :?

Just thought anyone else might've heard the same?

theres different types of femminist you get the
radicle femminist- hate men goes as far as killling them
marxist femminist- see society opressing women through capitalist mean (somet like that)
liberal femminist- like you and me- just want women to have equal opportunity as men
hope that explains to ya:okay:

[Sum-Muslim-Gal]

^^ooh yeh i remember ...ok then i was on about the radical feminsts...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

We have seen the how the "Muslim World" has delt with equality.

you havent seen it until you've found out the way the prophet saws and his companions treated the women. That was the true muslim world, and the way those women behaved was something no feminist could ever understand....

[wilberhum]

glad you find it amusing Wilberhum, I hope you can take inspiration from Islam, it is a complete way of life..and Allah knows best.:D

Take inspiration form inequality?
I think not.

[wilberhum]

you havent seen it until you've found out the way the prophet saws and his companions treated the women. That was the true muslim world, and the way those women behaved was something no feminist could ever understand....

Where do I find it? Utopia or some other mythological place?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Where do I find it? Utopia or some other mythological place?

or you can use your sense and read some books on the biogrophy of women in islam such as Aisha RA or Khadija RA :rollseyes

[bint_muhammed]

or you can use your sense and read some books on the biogrophy of women in islam such as Aisha RA or Khadija RA :rollseyes

hey bro, i get the feeling your banging your head against a brick wall, like alllah swt say he guides whom he pleaseth!:)

[Kamilah]

Take inspiration form inequality?
I think not.

oh please save this talk for your Bar mitzvah

I think you might wanna go and check your own back yard first didnt u read the sermon i posted...?? why no response to it...like to ignore the truth?

what sort of feminism is it your state actually offers?

you are quite right...it would be difficult for someone of your mindset to comprehend true equality... yor idea of equality is to judge by the least amount of clothes women wear:rollseyes

[IbnAbdulHakim]

hey bro, i get the feeling your banging your head against a brick wall, like alllah swt say he guides whom he pleaseth!:)

nope, wilberhum is quite entertainin to "discuss" with. i wouldnt approach a topic about feminism for much dawah, i jus came here to understand how pro-feminist minds work :D. AND I STLIL DONT GET IT :heated:

i think ive stressed the point that men n women are clearly not equal enuff, women are betta in ways and men betta in other ways. jus like the rest of humanity !!!

[KAding]

:sl:
The reson why there have been more violent male leaders than female leaders is because there have not been many female leaders! The female leaders that are famous have been just as violent and warlike as men:

• Elizabeth I destroyed the Spanish Armada, then sent her own (failed and not well-known) armada to conquer Spain
• Condi is certainly just as warlike as the other Neocons
• Boudiccia burnt down Roman London
• Cleopatra went to war with the Romans
• Joan of Arc kicked the British out of France

:w:

Some good examples. But you have to understand that essentially public life, including the political system are a product of patriachal societies. Males have dominated and created these systems and the principles on which they are built, which is inherintly masculine. Laws on warfare and conflict resolution, on honor, on the role of females in society. All of it has been decided by men! A few female monarchs are hardly in a position to bring down such a powerful system of customs and tradition.

The system is essentially based on these masculine characteristics (from wikipedia):

* priorities are achievement, wealth, expansion, and war
* in politics, conflicts are resolved by aggression
* women's liberation means that women begin to participate in male-dominated areas
* a low number of women represented in politics
* manufacturing and business are seen as more important than arts and healing
* the ideal icon is the soldier/warrior or successful entrepreneur
* professionals often "live to work" (i.e. - long work hours and little use of vacation time)
* cultural origins are in warmer and relatively mild climates where there was little need to concentrate on environmental survival, hence a low use of cooperation

Contrast that to the feminity

* priorities are relationships, nurturance, environmental protection, and quality of life
* conflicts solved by negotiation, with aggression as a last resort
* women's liberation means that men and women should share equal roles
* a high number of women in politics
* arts and healing are more important than manufacturing and business
* the ideal icon is someone who helps and nurtures the community
* professionals "work to live" (i.e. - short work hours and high use of vacation time)
* cultural origins are usually from cold and/or environmentally harsh conditions where cooperation was necessary in order to survive (tundras, deserts, etc)

Sure, these are ideal-types. There are violent women and there are caring men. But still, in broad terms it is correct. And I would very much prefer a world order based on the latter! Now, I know that there are plenty of Islamic political theorists (like Sayyid Qutb) who believe public affairs are the affairs of men. That women should not take part in state affairs for example. They believe this is what Islam teaches. I personally simply cannot accept that, and I believe it is bad for everyone.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Members are reminded to remain on topic and post appropriate content and refrain from insults.

:w:

[wilberhum]

KAding
I like what you have to say. It's good to see some one with balance.

[Keltoi]

Women and men have always had different roles in every culture, but in general it is the men who are tasked with the more masculine jobs, like fighting, hunting, and leadership. Women, in general, were tasked with the more domestic jobs, like maintaining a household, raising children, etc. Historically this division of labor was both logical and necessary. However, in modern times these labor divisions aren't as logical or as necessary. Yes, men will still do most of the fighting and hard physical labor, but women are on a mostly equal footing as far as bringing home an income. That means women don't "need" men as they once did, and this creates its own set of cultural problems...or progressions, depending on your point of view.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings Izak,

Are you suggesting that females are not strong willed, and are easily manipulated?

Read my post in context. I was responding to wilberhum's assumption that women would definitively be superior leaders due to pacifist nature, and I pointed out that pacificism is not always a positive trait.

Hello Wilber,

I wonder how many stats I could gather showing that men are more violent than women. But then you already know that.

Making generalizations only prompts genarlizations in response. If you want to say that in general men are more violent than women, then by your argument one could say in general women are more emotional than men, and therefore just as unsuitable for the role, if not more.

It is interesting to know that female equality is un-Islamic.

Too bad you didn't read this the first time I posted it:

______________________

Muslim Women: Concept of Equality

By : Ansar Al-'Adl
Before discussing the concept of equality and how it relates to men and women in Islam, we need to make an important distinction. Many people who speak about equality presume that this should be reflected in treating two groups exactly the same. However, this is manifestly not always the proper thing to do. People's needs, strengths, abilities and disabilities need to be accommodated and considered as opposed to subjecting all to a single standard that may only be suitable for a few.

Thus we need to make a distinction between the superficial procedural equality and the substantive equality, which is justice. Most societies recognize that the important thing is not to focus on superficial procedural equality but to provide substantive equality for all its citizens, which treats them justly according to their needs and circumstances. Human beings favor substantive equality over procedural equality on a daily basis because we recognize that the former allows for justice. We accommodate in our workplaces, schools, and commercial areas, those with disabilities. We recognize the need for social services to take care of the impoverished in the society, while the wealthy are subject to taxes. We give extra attention and consideration to those experiencing emotional, psychological, or physical difficulties in their lives. All of this is substantive equality, equity and justice.

Men and Women
When it comes to men and women, everyone recognizes that there are inherent indisputable differences between men and women. They are not identical; men and women are naturally different in many ways. As a result, it does not follow logically to neglect those differences and advocate a single standard in matters where they are not the same. That may be procedural equality, but it is not substantive equality. For example, it would be unjust for a husband to suggest that his wife work equally as hard as he does when she is pregnant. Justice is served by recognizing the burden of pregnancy and the need for the husband to adjust accordingly. There are obvious biological differences - men experience neither menstrual periods nor childbirth while women generally live longer and have less health problems at an elderly age. The AARP Bulletin published an article on 8 health differences between men and women:

When it comes to health, differences between men and women extend well beyond their attitude toward getting annual checkups and needed treatment. In case men need a few reasons to make a doctor's appointment, they should consider the following:

• The life expectancy for men in the United States, 74.4, is a little more than five years shorter than for women, 79.8.
• Cancer kills men at a higher rate than it kills women.
• Of those killed by heart disease before age 65, 70 percent are men.
• Sleep apnea, a potentially serious disorder that causes breathing to stop and start repeatedly during sleep, is more common in men than women.
• Four times as many men die by suicide, the number-eight cause of death among men.
• Men are 50 percent more likely than women to develop coronary heart disease after age 40.
• Men have fewer infection-fighting T-cells than women.
• By the age of 100, women outnumber men eight to one.

In the olympics, men and women compete separately because of physiological differences. At the age of 18 years, the avergae male is 70.2 inches tall and weighs 144.8 pounds, while the average female is 64.4 inches tall and weighs 126.6 pounds. On the basis of weight, men have 50% greater total muscle mass than women. The average woman's heart is 25% smaller than that of the average man. Women carry about ten percentage points more fat than men (SOURCE).

In academics, women generally score higher than men in subjects such as languages and humanities while the opposite is true for mathematics and sciences. Both genders have unique strengths and capabilities. Concerning the pyschological differences between men and women, an article entitled Men and Women Really Do Think Differently quotes a recent neurological study:

Psychology professor Richard Haier of the University of California, Irvine led the research along with colleagues from the University of New Mexico. Their findings show that in general, men have nearly 6.5 times the amount of gray matter related to general intelligence compared with women, whereas women have nearly 10 times the amount of white matter related to intelligence compared to men. [...]In human brains, gray matter represents information processing centers, whereas white matter works to network these processing centers.
The results from this study may help explain why men and women excel at different types of tasks, said co-author and neuropsychologist Rex Jung of the University of New Mexico. For example, men tend to do better with tasks requiring more localized processing, such as mathematics, Jung said, while women are better at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions of the brain, which aids language skills. (SOURCE)

Another article published in Psychology Today describes the differences between men and women as 'insecapable':

When it comes to speaking and making hand movements that contribute to motor skill, the brain seems to be very focally organized in women compared with men. This may relate to the fact that girls generally speak earlier, articulate better and also have better fine motor control of the hands. Also, a larger proportion of women than men are right-handed, and unequivocally so. But when it comes to certain, more-abstract tasks, such as defining words, women's brains are more diffusely organized than men's, although men and women don't differ in overall vocabulary ability.
[...]Neuropsychologist Marian Diamond of the University of California at Berkeley, comparing cortical thickness in male and female rats, did find that the right cortex is thicker in males at most ages, while the left cortex is thicker in females but only at some ages (see "A Love Affair with the brain," Psychology Today, November 1984). [...]The fact seems inescapable that men and women do differ genetically, physiologically and in many important ways psychologically. (SOURCE)

Modern psychological research continues to unveil differences in men and women from the most obvious in behavioural patterns to those as trivial as picking out an angry face in in a crowd. In light of such manifest differences between the two genders, it is unsuitable for men and women to assume identical roles. As mentioned in a NY times article on Women's helath:

In contrast to the feminist premise that women can do anything men can do, science is demonstrating that women can do some things better, that they have many biological and cognitive advantages over men. Then again, there are some things that women don't do as well. (SOURCE)

God created us with different but complementary strengths and capabilities. A man does not need to become a woman nor vice versa in order to be successful.

What Islam Says

Islam recognizes that while men and women have some physical differences, spiritually they enjoy absolute equality before God. The Qur'an and Ahadith are unequivocal in stating that one's gender will have absolutely no bearing on their reward or punishment in the next life.

3:195 I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other

4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

16:97 Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.

40:40 "He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.

33:35 Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women - the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for all has Allah prepared forgiveness and a great reward.

49:13 O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is the most pious. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

Therefore Islam openly declares that men and women have an equal status and value before God, and piety alone differentiates one individual from another.

In legal and practical aspects, the general rules are the same for men and women. Both have the same acts of worships, the same Islamic etiquette and manners, and are subject to the same legal penalties. But there are also many cases where the rulings are different. Women are exempted from fasting and prayer during their period. Men are prohibited from wearing gold and silk while women are allowed to, as it is women's nature to beautify themselves. Jumu'ah (Friday prayers) are obligatory for men but optional for women. Men must spend their money on the family but a woman's money is entirely her own to spend as she chooses. There are differences in clothing requirements as well, since the physical appearance of men and women is dissimilar. All of this is reflective of the natural differences between men and women. So in lesser fiqh&#238; (jurisprudential) matters, Islam treats men and women according to their inherent differences as per substantive equality and in the interest of justice.

In conclusion, Islam affirms the absolute spiritual equality of men and women, and assigns both an equal rank before God. In Jurisprudential matters, Islam promotes the substantive equality of men and women, recognizes their unique strengths and capabilities, and rules accordingly protecting the rights of both.
___________________


If anyone is really interested in understanding what Islam says on such issues, please visit this thread which contains 3 articles and has many more forthcoming:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...lim-women.html

Hi KAding,
I noticed you did not respond to my earlier post answering your misunderstandings about hijaab. Did you miss it? I'm interested to know what further questions you might have so please do read my response.

Males have dominated and created these [political] systems

Why do you think that is the case? In Islam, the systems are created by neither men nor women, but the creator of humanity.

Peace.

[Curaezipirid]

Waram,

The state of South Australia was the first place to give women the vote, followed closely by the whole of New Zealand.

So I feel sort of culturally obligated to consolidate a brief relegation of what feminism has proven worth to us here in the land of Oz:

women can hide what we spend money on from Husbands with eeease;

women can chose to assert their rights as women and to have any credibility in that must dress modestly, where as any woman whom asserts her rights as a female and dresses bossy is a sell out, and if she dresses sexy she is a worse sell out;

women are forgetting how to be good wives;

women have equitable education with men;

the rights of the child in child birth have been abused along with the rights of the mother;

too many children get money confused with parental affection;

the radical lefty feminists chant: "yes means yes and no means no, what ever we wear and where ever we go"; and not one person can fault them in that;

there are feminists whom use sado masichist brothels and nightclubs and try to rub the publics face in the facts to the matter, such as one third of the population of Sydney having had homosexual experiences (there is no far enough revolted smilie to define: a vomit one perhaps?);

the feminist crowd is massively divided upon the issue of gog and magog along the lines of clear facial markings: either you got a hairdo/tattoos/piercings/studs,rivets, and buckles, or you know better than to fall into that trap of believing in one mob being able to force another mob into hell just for the sake of looking pretty, (pretty bl**dy awful that is);

prostitution is legal and as a legal commodity there are health care regulations in place which effectively protect the whole community;

the police are still refusing to prosecute in most cases of rape, especially within families;

the rights of children have only worsened, but I believe that the feminist position openly expressed is not problematic in respect of children, but rather is problematic in respect of the rights of Husbands, and so therefore women are not appropriately supporting men to be good fathers.

That's about all that feminism seems to have amounted to; my grandmother's education is really quite as good as my own, but my heredity is of two blood lines which always supported the education of women.

I could add that Indigenous Australians had an idea, even before the English arrived, (along with all New Zealand and Pacific Islanders), that this period of time was to be one in which a feminine force would be the guide in Allah, and that through only temporary female leadership, the shaytan would all manifest as managable forevermore. But that process of female leadership has been thwarted by invasion of shaytan wanting to support a gog and magog attitude. That whole pre-existing Indigenous perspective has parallels in most feminist work.

waram

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

However, in modern times these labor divisions aren't as logical or as necessary. Yes, men will still do most of the fighting and hard physical labor, but women are on a mostly equal footing as far as bringing home an income. That means women don't "need" men as they once did, and this creates its own set of cultural problems...or progressions, depending on your point of view.

And yet, modern psychology reports still suggest a natural tendency in males towards dominant roles, and a natural tendency in females to value men who occupy such roles. What do you think about this quote:

"Males are [...] more willing to endure pain, frustration, and the like, to learn what they must and do what they must for [...] dominance, while females... are more willing to endure such pain, frustration, and the like for familial reasons, for children, for love [...] but not so much for dominance."

Regards

[Bittersteel]

^ hehe Ansar that dominance thing does not apply right when it comes to feminists.and yes I have met a lot of western people who hates feminists,okay?

I heard they(feminists) were really pleased when Bush attacked Iraq.said it will help a lot to fight the "Islamic oppression" for women,in the region.

are all feminists are against Islam only,or just staunch supporters of secularism?

[Tania]

^ hehe Ansar that dominance thing does not apply right when it comes to feminists.and yes I have met a lot of western people who hates feminists,okay?

I heard they(feminists) were really pleased when Bush attacked Iraq.said it will help a lot to fight the "Islamic oppression" for women,in the region.

are all feminists are against Islam only,or just staunch supporters of secularism?

I think we should make a difference between religion and the way in which the men are using the religious knowledge.

[Bittersteel]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/S...925547,00.html

and there is another feminist heroine launching a crusade against the Muslim veil in Italy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/S...933269,00.html

I pity the Non-Muslims here who say removing the veil is right(against the will of women).
and yes I don't like what this Italian said about Muslim males.

is this veil banning thing going to be contained within Europe?I am asking this since Morocco thought about banning the veil.I don't want Islamic countries baning the veil.

[IzakHalevas]

And yet, modern psychology reports still suggest a natural tendency in males towards dominant roles, and a natural tendency in females to value men who occupy such roles. What do you think about this quote:

"Males are [...] more willing to endure pain, frustration, and the like, to learn what they must and do what they must for [...] dominance, while females... are more willing to endure such pain, frustration, and the like for familial reasons, for children, for love [...] but not so much for dominance."

So you believe a male is better suited to become a leader of a certain country because he is willing to take pain for the sake of dominance, while a female is to do the same for love?

That makes no sense, that is a generalization in its self, although you accuse people of making generalizations. All males are not alpha males who wish to dominate, and all females are not nurturing parents who love children. A female is just a suitable to lead a country as a male is, and they can be just as strong willed and decisive in making designs.

[Keltoi]

So you believe a male is better suited to become a leader of a certain country because he is willing to take pain for the sake of dominance, while a female is to do the same for love?

That makes no sense, that is a generalization in its self, although you accuse people of making generalizations. All males are not alpha males who wish to dominate, and all females are not nurturing parents who love children. A female is just a suitable to lead a country as a male is, and they can be just as strong willed and decisive in making designs.

Remember Margaret Thatcher?

[Trumble]

All males are not alpha males who wish to dominate, and all females are not nurturing parents who love children. A female is just a suitable to lead a country as a male is, and they can be just as strong willed and decisive in making designs.

Quite right... a 'tendency' is only that, and no excuse for sexist stereotyping. In this case even the tendency is partlially, if not wholly, the result of cultural conditioning that is the result of such stereotyping.

[youngsister]

:sl: There are different types of feminist lets not forget that. Again I dont really agree with them, over the top and silly.
However having said that In the west when women had no right they made a difference..but now many dont even want equal rights some believe their better. :w:

[IzakHalevas]

Let us look at the definitions of two words:

feminism
–noun 1.the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

Islam
–noun 1.the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.

http://dictionary.reference.com/


Both of these groups advocate what the definition says. To generalize all of them because of the actions of few is something I would least expect from people on this board.

[Bittersteel]

look all of you.My country has been ruled by women for the last 15 years okay.we made great economic progress.but our country is bad as ever.

I don't have a problem with women being country leaders.Its secularism and feminist extremism I have a problem with.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

So you believe a male is better suited to become a leader of a certain country because he is willing to take pain for the sake of dominance, while a female is to do the same for love?

You seem to have a fetish for habitually neglecting the context of my posts *. The quote followed a question specifically directed at Keltoi which asked, "What do you think about this quote". If you want to see what I believe by all means take a look at the arguments I have provided in my article Muslim Women: Concept of Equality. Scientific research has clearly established a distinction between men and women physiologically and psychologically. From the article:

Concerning the pyschological differences between men and women, an article entitled Men and Women Really Do Think Differently quotes a recent neurological study:

Psychology professor Richard Haier of the University of California, Irvine led the research along with colleagues from the University of New Mexico. Their findings show that in general, men have nearly 6.5 times the amount of gray matter related to general intelligence compared with women, whereas women have nearly 10 times the amount of white matter related to intelligence compared to men. [...]In human brains, gray matter represents information processing centers, whereas white matter works to network these processing centers.
The results from this study may help explain why men and women excel at different types of tasks, said co-author and neuropsychologist Rex Jung of the University of New Mexico. For example, men tend to do better with tasks requiring more localized processing, such as mathematics, Jung said, while women are better at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions of the brain, which aids language skills. (SOURCE)

Another article published in Psychology Today describes the differences between men and women as 'insecapable':

When it comes to speaking and making hand movements that contribute to motor skill, the brain seems to be very focally organized in women compared with men. This may relate to the fact that girls generally speak earlier, articulate better and also have better fine motor control of the hands. Also, a larger proportion of women than men are right-handed, and unequivocally so. But when it comes to certain, more-abstract tasks, such as defining words, women's brains are more diffusely organized than men's, although men and women don't differ in overall vocabulary ability.
[...]Neuropsychologist Marian Diamond of the University of California at Berkeley, comparing cortical thickness in male and female rats, did find that the right cortex is thicker in males at most ages, while the left cortex is thicker in females but only at some ages (see "A Love Affair with the brain," Psychology Today, November 1984). [...]The fact seems inescapable that men and women do differ genetically, physiologically and in many important ways psychologically. (SOURCE)

Modern psychological research continues to unveil differences in men and women from the most obvious in behavioural patterns to those as trivial as picking out an angry face in in a crowd. In light of such manifest differences between the two genders, it is unsuitable for men and women to assume identical roles. As mentioned in a NY times article on Women's helath:

In contrast to the feminist premise that women can do anything men can do, science is demonstrating that women can do some things better, that they have many biological and cognitive advantages over men. Then again, there are some things that women don't do as well. (SOURCE)

God created us with different but complementary strengths and capabilities. A man does not need to become a woman nor vice versa in order to be successful.

Now with regard to the quote I posted, you write:

That makes no sense,

If by this you intend that the statement is logically incoherent, you will have to substantiate such a claim. The fact that it speaks of general trends does not make it logically incoherent or the entire field of psychology could be classified as such.

that is a generalization in its self, although you accuse people of making generalizations.

Let us try to maintain at least some degree of accuracy here. I told wilberhum, "Making generalizations only prompts genarlizations in response". This was my comment on his statement, "I wonder how many stats I could gather showing that men are more violent than women. But then you already know that." As such, it was a disclaimer for the subsequent generalization I provided.

All males are not alpha males who wish to dominate, and all females are not nurturing parents who love children.

Since no one here has been making absolute claims, you're attacking a strawman. The argument is not that all females are unsuitable for such leaderships roles or that all males are suitable for such leadership roles. Rather, the argument is that the inherent psychological and physiological differences in men and women account for a much greater portion of the traditional roles assumed, as opposed to gender discrimination or cultural conditioning. I don't think anyone claims that gender discrimination accounts for ratios of 3993:19 business executives (Fortune). And as for cultural conditioning, it is only that - cultural. Thus, had such traditional roles of male leadership been only the result of culture, we would not have expected such roles to transcend all cultural boundaries.

A female is just a suitable to lead a country as a male is

Of course, there are such possibility. But they do not negate the norm which is substantiated psychologically, historically and most of all - intuitively.

Peace!

[Trumble]

Of course, there are such possibility. But they do not negate the norm which is substantiated psychologically, historically and most of all - intuitively.

I'm rather confused as to how you can attempt to set out a logical argument to support your position and then end it with that last phrase. 'Intuitively' for who?

Rather, the argument is that the inherent psychological and physiological differences in men and women account for a much greater portion of the traditional roles assumed, as opposed to gender discrimination or cultural conditioning

If that is your argument, you provide no evidence to support it at all, at least applied to the 21st century. If you accept the psychology, which I'm happy enough to do, all you have shown is that (to an unestablished extent) men might be better at some tasks than women, and vice versa. Nowhere is that even equated directly to roles as such (*), let alone leading to the conclusion that psychological and physiological differences are more significant than gender discrimination or cultural conditioning. Indeed, the empirical evidence was to the contrary.. it is as that discrimination and cultural conditioning was removed, at least in part, that the (non-heriditary)female leaders began to appear. There is a direct correlation, not intuition, and history by definition belongs in the past.

(*) I can accept there are such roles, particularly where physiology is the significant factor, but there is absolutely nothing showing modern politician and statesman is one of them... the likes of Golda Meir and Margaret Thatcher and, indeed, Elizabeth I provide strong empirical evidence to the contrary

[Pk_#2]

look all of you.My country has been ruled by women for the last 15 years okay.we made great economic progress.but our country is bad as ever.

I don't have a problem with women being country leaders.Its secularism and feminist extremism I have a problem with.

Hmm,

:rollseyes

imsad can't be that bad? lol

[Curaezipirid]

Feminism has been a rite of passage for very many young females in Australia, and it is a rite of passage in which younger persons are encouraged by older persons to hold their own in the company of men. This is a natural compliment to our usual way in which men are very dominant. In the real tradition of course there are very valuable rites of passage for women into womanhood and into the women's business of senior elders. Yet this is replicated effectively by the feminist movement. Feminists provided my self with essential work place training which I would never otherwise have received. The YWCA fast tracked me into a managerial position in between having my second and my third baby, because the support a policy of positive discrimination for women in aspects of education so as that childraising is never able to be regarded as a lesser persons role.

However, all too often what has been happening is that women in the west have become over educated. Many women whom get thoroughly educated and have careers before babies are more likely to develop a post-natal depression etc, because they have placed upon them self the expectations of fulfillment from the world of men. Many of these are nevertheless enabled to raise happy children, but it is much harder for them than for younger women.

At heart I believe that it is a positive move to regard the centre everything real, in and about feminism, as a method of ensuring that women are educated, and thereby it is supportive of Islam.

The real weakness in feminism is that of the failures which occassionally manifest of truly valuing the labour of women as mothers and wives. Although feminists campaign on the platform of valuation of women's labour, there are many among whom are ignorant of much of the women's labour occuring around them every day, and only because they ignore the real worth of ordinary housewives and canteen ladies and other women whom are happy in their lot.

It is important to distinguish between issues around those whom want to use feminism as a platform to promote lesbianism, and the real worth of work that is oriented to sustaining women in the real biologically based educational needs. This difference is at its most difficult to discern in instances such as with feminist rape counsellors. They educate well in the law and psychology of rape, but among there are those whom are often themselves only using their work to access the minds and memories of sexual history of women whom are in a vulnerable time.

Essentially there is a real need for women to sustain women's only education processes because in Jihad it is men whom are likely to fail children, and then women are those whom become primarily burdened with the tasks of rebuilding family bonds of faith. Because of this women must support each other to prevent any violence from men, and to prevent children being exposed to any wrongful attitude in fathers towards mothers.

If the feminists were not doing the job of watching out for the rights of vulnerable women, would you be? Perhaps more believers should be attending to such tasks rather than leaving them only to a minority of women whom want to be loud about being female.

waram

[Joey]

I think we are speaking about voting, getting a job without a husbands permission, runnign for president, ect...

OH your talking about feminism in the middle east?

[bint_muhammed]

we dont need these 'femminist' we've got islam alhamdullila it gave us our freedom 1400 yrs ago. follow islam properly no problem arises!

[wilberhum]

we dont need these 'femminist' we've got islam alhamdullila it gave us our freedom 1400 yrs ago. follow islam properly no problem arises!

It is a shame that women are punished for not sharing your view.

[Amadeus85]

I dont like feminists to be honest. Feminists, especially the radical ones, are on the opposite of my own attitudes. Feminists are against families, they call it a death camp for women, they support same sex relationships, abortion. They think that all men are drunk brainless *******s who just want to use woman and then leave her. In my opinion they have something wrong with head.

[Amadeus85]

By the way, maybe you dont know that a woman who created modern feminist movement in USA was actually a soviet agent, communist. ANd it is not a conspiracy theory.

[wilberhum]

By the way, maybe you dont know that a woman who created modern feminist movement in USA was actually a soviet agent, communist. ANd it is not a conspiracy theory.

Do you mean to imply all Communists are evil and every idea created by a Communists is evil? :muddlehea
Do you think it was better when women had few rights? :thumbs_do
Do you think women are inferior? :mad:

[Keltoi]

In my opinion, the major problem with the Feminist movement was the promise that women could have it all, both a rewarding career and a rewarding family life. If a woman chooses to be a professional, that is a great thing. However, I've known many women who were forced to choose between a rewarding family experience and career success. Many times they cannot have both.

[Malaikah]

However, I've known many women who were forced to choose between a rewarding family experience and career success. Many times they cannot have both.

That is so true. You really can't have both.

Do you mean to imply all Communists are evil and every idea created by a Communists is evil? :muddlehea
Do you think it was better when women had few rights? :thumbs_do
Do you think women are inferior? :mad:

Just because we don't think women should be reduced to walking talking images of men, doesn't mean we don't respect women or think they are inferior.

Some people value family life and understand how important the role of a mother is.

[al-muslimah]

Asalamu Alaykum to alla the muslims here,

Well to tell you the truth I hate feminism it is so embarrasing for me to here for the stuff they say about Muslim Women like how they're oppressed nad the problems they have about the viel(which are not true).The great egyptian female scholar Zainab Al-Ghazali use to be in the egyptian feminist movement and got out because of their idealogical ways.May the curse of Allah be on those people who attack Islam.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Ok so the women become feminists because once upon a time they didnt have the rights they deserved, so they fight back. Ok Im good wit that, but not when they go an extra 1000000 miles further and start talking crap about our religion and say we need help. Im sure they wouldnt appreciate me saying THEY are oppressed and need help or liberation. Some feminists talking away is usually just a waste of air space for speech...Maybe they should try asking how we feel instead of living up on assumptions.

[wilberhum]

Once upon a time.
BS Women still don't have equality.
You don't want equality, fine.
Don't cause inequality for others.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Firstly you don't need go to the extra length and cuss. It only really shows your impatience to a conversation. Secondly, no one is saying to strip someone else of their "equality." I don't support equality, I support fairness. There's a difference. Perhaps you can ponder over that and figure out why. Your stating your comments on assumptions. Sorry but I won't let fly by. I don't have a problem with women gaining rights cuz I still wait for the day when people will grant it to them with honor and dignity, not with loose morals and ethics. But Alhumdulillah, Islam has already granted us women in Islam such status. We don't need non Muslims dictating to us our religion when they have no actual knowledge of it. All they see is that we're covered and need help. Would they say that if Mary(peace be upon her) was here? Try and say that to a nun.

[Amadeus85]

There is nothing wrong with women rights and equality , but generally i dont trust feminists. They have to extreme ideas, like same sex marriages or abortion on wish.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Yea I got no problem with them and the idea of rights but a lot of things they need to keep to themselves.

[tears4husain]

you sed it, men and women are both different and equal on different levels.

its like men are 2+4 = 6 and women are 3+3 = 6 but noo these women wanna be 2+4 = 6 but they cant be 2+4 = 6 coz they lack the attributes aaand :grumbling

:sl: no the thing is non-muslim women and newly reverts really dont know their rights and eqaullity in Islam and its our job to justly show or teach them so we wont have these problems in our ummah and maybe end the stereotype.

[wilberhum]

:sl: no the thing is non-muslim women and newly reverts really dont know their rights and eqaullity in Islam and its our job to justly show or teach them so we wont have these problems in our ummah and maybe end the stereotype.

Knowing your rights and getting them are two different things.
Any law that applies to one gender and not the other creates inequality.

[guyabano]

Ok so the women become feminists because once upon a time they didnt have the rights they deserved, so they fight back. Ok Im good wit that, but not when they go an extra 1000000 miles further and start talking crap about our religion and say we need help. Im sure they wouldnt appreciate me saying THEY are oppressed and need help or liberation. Some feminists talking away is usually just a waste of air space for speech...Maybe they should try asking how we feel instead of living up on assumptions.

I accept what you say, but you cannot pretend, that you speak out for all muslim women. I know a lot of muslim women who would gladly have a different way of living than hiding behind a veil or even under an burka!
I saw it many times, when iranian women come back from the visit of their families in Iran, at the airport take of their veils, run in the first TAX FREE GUCCHI Shop to buy some stuff, run to toilet rooms , and came out as different women

[Trumble]

In my opinion, the major problem with the Feminist movement was the promise that women could have it all, both a rewarding career and a rewarding family life. If a woman chooses to be a professional, that is a great thing. However, I've known many women who were forced to choose between a rewarding family experience and career success. Many times they cannot have both.

A significant plank of the feminist argument is that that is a fault of the system, not an inherent contradiction. Theoretically at least there is no reason society could not be structured to do both, but it is paternalist attitudes and interests that prevent such changes occuring.

[glo]

In my opinion, the major problem with the Feminist movement was the promise that women could have it all, both a rewarding career and a rewarding family life. If a woman chooses to be a professional, that is a great thing. However, I've known many women who were forced to choose between a rewarding family experience and career success. Many times they cannot have both.

Actually, I would say that I see many women having to do it both:

• Have a career and make an income for the family, AND
• still bear and raise the children, and run the household.

I still think it is good to be able to make life choices. And being able to be financially independent, if necessary, is not a bad thing!

Speaking for myself, circumstances took me to be the main income earner for my family for the last 6 years - and I am glad that I had the qualifications and the career to do so.
But, given the choice, I would have loved to be a stay-at-home-mum!

Luckily my husband and I can share the family commitments in every other way, and he does much in the house - but it's not like that for everybody ...

[Keltoi]

Actually, I would say that I see many women having to do it both:

• Have a career and make an income for the family, AND
• still bear and raise the children, and run the household.

I still think it is good to be able to make life choices. And being able to be financially independent, if necessary, is not a bad thing!

Speaking for myself, circumstances took me to be the main income earner for my family for the last 6 years - and I am glad that I had the qualifications and the career to do so.
But, given the choice, I would have loved to be a stay-at-home-mum!

Luckily my husband and I can share the family commitments in every other way, and he does much in the house - but it's not like that for everybody ...

I guess my experience with this is the women I knew from college. They obtained their degrees and set off to pursue a professional career. With many of these careers you have to devote so much time and energy trying to climb the ladder, that the thought of forming a family just doesn't make sense. Most of these women are now in their early thirties and remain unmarried.

I'm not saying it is impossible to be a career woman and have a family, it depends on how they prioritize their lives. Let's be honest though, a woman has a much larger role to play with pregnancy, birth, and motherhood than a man does. Yes, many corporations seem to frown on the role of motherhood for its employees, that is a problem as well.

[wilberhum]

:thumbs_up Glo

I still think it is good to be able to make life choices.

Well said and you can't make a more simple accurate statement. :thumbs_up

[Keltoi]

I agree with Glo as well, choices are a good thing. That is actually my point though, because in many cases women are forced to make a choice, which usually doesn't involve both roles.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I accept what you say, but you cannot pretend, that you speak out for all muslim women. I know a lot of muslim women who would gladly have a different way of living than hiding behind a veil or even under an burka!
I saw it many times, when iranian women come back from the visit of their families in Iran, at the airport take of their veils, run in the first TAX FREE GUCCHI Shop to buy some stuff, run to toilet rooms , and came out as different women

well thats where the problem is. We cant force anyone to wear it. But we dont need them bashing our religion cz there are still some of us who love to cover. I wont sit and let someone talk unknowingly about my religion as if they mastered it.

[wilberhum]

I wont sit and let someone talk unknowingly about my religion as if they mastered it.

How can "someone talk unknowingly" about what they have mastered? :confused:

But you do have the right to bash them.

The down side of that right is they have the right to bash.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

How can they not? It's called not learning the truth and only say what they've been fed. Basically having a whole bunch of misconceptions. But that person will talk as if they mastered the entire religion and dictate it to us and to the world. Hence hte line "talk unknowingly as if they mastered it.

[wilberhum]

It's called not learning the truth

That term in not universal. That kind of TRUTH is no more than your piticular belief.

person will talk as if they mastered the entire religion

How is that different than what you are doing?
You saying "I'm right, they are wrong".

dictate it to us

Are they dictating or demanding equality. I see a lot of difference.

[Muezzin]

Guess what? You're going off-topic folks! Unless you want my cantenkerous bad self to start deletin', best get back to that there discussion, ya hear?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Wow Wilber, I dunno what your on about, but your completely goin off from what im talking bout.

[Muezzin]

Looks to me more like the start of a fight between two members than a discussion, but okay...

[wilberhum]

^^Why is it off topic? We're talking "about" the feminists bro...:X

Well Jazzy, we found something we agree on. :D
I too thought we were "On Topic". :uuh:

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Yes we r but ur not compehending what im sayin =| Im not sayin there wrong about givin ppl rights but they are wrong when they think they know about my faith wen in reality they dont..

[Muezzin]

Fair enough. My apologies.

[wilberhum]

^^Yes we r but ur not compehending what im sayin =| Im not sayin there wrong about givin ppl rights but they are wrong when they think they know about my faith wen in reality they dont..

Another point of agreement.

The veil is one of the most controversial items there is.
So say you do, some say you don’t.
There are a whole range of answers from different people and they all find validity in there conclusion. I don’t think one side is more pious than the other.

When I get to the bottom line, if a woman wants to ware the veil, no one should stop her. If a woman does not want to ware the veil, I think it is wrong to force her to ware one.

Some see the veil as a prison, some see it as freedom.
There is not just one size fits all.

Peace
Wilber

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Some see the veil as a prison, some see it as freedom.
There is not just one size fits all.

Thats my point basically. The problem is that the feminists only use one side to their advantage. But little do they realize the majority are in favor rather than not. And some people fleeing fom Hijaab in a country that enforces it, they aren't all Muslim. I met a girl in my Calculus class and she was from Iran and wore Hijaab there. The difference was that she was Jewish. One thing to keep in mind. If they want to help those "oppressed" women, then be my guest. But trying to speak up for the rest of us and bashing Islam we will never let pass by our nose.

[al-muslimah]

Uhh!! there is nothing that disburbs me more in a western society than feminists I swear some times I feel like going up them and wacking them on the mouth while they talk theier junky talk.What rights are they talking about Allah(swt) has already given us our rights.