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AvarAllahNoor
10-26-2006, 07:14 AM
Isn't this implying it's ALL the fault of the woman??

Australia's most senior Muslim cleric has prompted an uproar by saying that some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress.
In a sermon, Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali said that women who did not wear a hijab (head dress) were like "uncovered meat".

A transcript of the sermon has been published in an Australian newspaper.

Leading Muslim women have condemned the comments and Prime Minister John Howard said the remarks were "appalling".

"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous," Mr Howard told reporters.

But a spokesman for Sheikh Hilali said the quote had been taken out of context and referred not to sexual assault but to sexual infidelity.

Sheikh Hilali's critics have previously accused him of praising suicide bombers and claiming the attacks in the United States on 11 September 2001 were "God's work against oppressors".

The cleric's latest comments came in a sermon delivered to some 500 worshippers in Sydney last month.

If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred

Sheikh Hilali
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked.

The uncovered meat is the problem, he went on to say.

"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he added.

Sheikh Hilali also condemned women who swayed suggestively and wore make-up, implying they attracted sexual assault.

"Then you get a judge without mercy... and gives you 65 years," he added.
Reply

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Muezzin
10-26-2006, 04:28 PM
You need to provide a source.

Also, he apologised for the remarks.

I wish major religious figures would get their feet out of their mouths before opening them...
Reply

afriend2
10-26-2006, 04:44 PM
Salaam,

Apparently everyone "praises suicide bombers"....it's a load of codswallop to me.

Wassalam :peace:
Reply

wilberhum
10-26-2006, 07:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
You need to provide a source.

Also, he apologised for the remarks.

I wish major religious figures would get their feet out of their mouths before opening them...
While it is true that he apologised, but did he really?
He also rejected calls from across the Muslim and non-Muslim community to retract his comments.
Reply

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Zulkiflim
10-26-2006, 07:46 PM
Salaam,

I would say that the Imam way of conveying the message is aburpt.

Zakir Naik has a much better way of couching the message.

If two women who looked identical,one wore Hijab and the other wore a sexy clothing..which one would be most likely raped or bothered?

But again,the rapist in islam will be severely punished.
Reply

wilberhum
10-26-2006, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

I would say that the Imam way of conveying the message is aburpt.

Zakir Naik has a much better way of couching the message.

If two women who looked identical,one wore Hijab and the other wore a sexy clothing..which one would be most likely raped or bothered?

But again,the rapist in islam will be severely punished.
Would make no difference. A rapest doesn't care what you ware. He just wants to hurt a woman. It is hate, not sex. :grumbling :grumbling
Reply

- Qatada -
10-26-2006, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Would make no difference. A rapest doesn't care what you ware. He just wants to hurt a woman. It is hate, not sex. :grumbling :grumbling

And what makes you think that's the case?



Peace.
Reply

S_87
10-26-2006, 07:59 PM
aaaah Alhumdulillah the muslim woman has been ordered to cover up so that she will not be molested!

yes rape is wrong and there isnt an excuse for it but why are they highlighting what he said? like loads and i mean LOADS of scholars always say this so why highlight him?

and a rapist does does care what you wear. as said a covered woman will not be first choice as opposed to an uncovered woman. if a woman wants to save herself -coverup! yh all that stuff why should the woman have to do so its the man at fault blah blah :rolleyes: but the picture is a person can only control some things and one thing one person cannot control is another persons sick desire. but they CAN prevent
Reply

wilberhum
10-26-2006, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
And what makes you think that's the case?



Peace.
Knowledge through reading.
Reply

glo
10-26-2006, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Would make no difference. A rapest doesn't care what you ware. He just wants to hurt a woman. It is hate, not sex. :grumbling :grumbling
It a pretty well established in psychology that rape is about control, and not sex. I agree with you, Wilberhum.
Reply

lavikor201
10-26-2006, 08:01 PM
If two women who looked identical,one wore Hijab and the other wore a sexy clothing..which one would be most likely raped or bothered?
Read a bit about rape. It has to do with weakness, not sexual desire a majority of times. If the women in the hijab apears weak, she the majority of times will get raped, millions of psycologists and experts say.
Reply

Zulkiflim
10-26-2006, 08:03 PM
Salaam,

Umm,perhaps for you a better comaparison is two women...

One obese and the other toned...wearing the same revealing clothes....which would be raped?

83% of rape cases are ages 24 or under.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/...sticspage.html

Umm wonder why they prefer younger women?
Reply

strider
10-26-2006, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
It a pretty well established in psychology that rape is about control, and not sex. I agree with you, Wilberhum.
Precisely!

I think the 'scholars' comments are extremely distasteful and insulting.
Reply

lavikor201
10-26-2006, 08:05 PM
It is saddening, frustrating as well as dangerous to see the propagation of such erroneous beliefs that not only continue to perpetuate the myths surrounding rape, but also provide the perfect environment for rape to continue.
Rape is not about sudden loss of sexual self-control due to provocation. It is a crime of violence where sex is used to demean and subjugate women.
Babies from below one year old to elderly women of ninety have been raped, girls in covered up school uniforms and women in what is considered "sexy" clothes have been raped - the only common factor lies in the fact that they are all women. Women and girls have been sexually violated by their fathers, brothers, grandfathers, boyfriends, acquaintances and co-workers. As Christine S. herself recognised, a woman cannot feel safe anywhere anymore. Rapes happen on dates, when you are parking your car, in your own home. Therefore, it is fallacious to state that if only women would take heed in where they go with whom and wearing what, they would not have been raped. Beliefs like these limit women's life and ability to participate fully as members of society, and further create the inequality in gender relations that makes it enabling for men to exert their power over women using sex as a weapon.
Blaming the survivor only releases the man who commits the violence from the responsibility for what he has done. What this will do is again to create an environment that is acceptable and facilitating for any man to be a rapist because they are not at fault - the fault lies with the woman for no other reason than that she is a woman. Sometimes women blame the survivors to cope with this terrible crime, to convince ourselves that "rape will never happen to me because I will not go out late at night/wear sexy clothes/go on a date etc." It is urgent to realise that this does not address the root of the problem; no matter what a woman chooses to do and how she behaves, she does not deserve or ask to be violated.
We plea to Christine and to every person who considers rape as an abhorrence that should not happen to any woman, to start looking at the issue where it rests: rapists who disregards a woman's right to make decisions about her own bodily integrity, rapists who do not think women have the right to say "no", and rapists who thinks they can get away with rape because the fault does not lie on their blatant disrespect for women's human rights.
The issue will not disappear unless we start to examine our own attitudes and values which allows for rape to happen.
Reply

strider
10-26-2006, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

Umm,perhaps for you a better comaparison is two women...

One obese and the other toned...wearing the same revealing clothes....which would be raped?

83% of rape cases are ages 24 or under.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/...sticspage.html

Umm wonder why they prefer younger women?
Again, you come over as an uneducated person. Rape isn't about sex, it's about control. You can never lay blame at the door of the rape victim.
Reply

lavikor201
10-26-2006, 08:07 PM
Rape is not provoked by women wearing sexy clothes or behaving seductively - many teenagers in uniforms have been raped. It is also not an "over-spill" of sexual energy, or an impulsive crime. Rape is a violation of the victim's will and her body - no woman asks to be raped - and rape is a crime of violence using sex as a weapon. A high percentage of rapists are acquaintances, "friends" and relatives, and approximately 69.4% of rapes occurred in "safe" places (houses, schools etc.)

Zulikflim, do not talk about what you do not know. It is obvious you have no knowledge about psycology, so i will take the experts words, not some sexist shiekh who subjigates women.
Reply

wilberhum
10-26-2006, 08:16 PM
lavikor201
Great posts.
Reply

Zulkiflim
10-27-2006, 02:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by strider
Again, you come over as an uneducated person. Rape isn't about sex, it's about control. You can never lay blame at the door of the rape victim.
Salaam,

Statistics speak much more than philosphy right.

And i never said it is the woman fault for baring herself.
It is just that statistics prove that women whom are raped are young and visually pleasing.

The rapist target these young women,or are you saying that is wrong?

83% of rape cases are ages 24 or under.

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/...sticspage.html

And if rape is about control,about weakness again WHO DO THEY TARGET?
Fat ugly,obese girls?
Reply

Zulkiflim
10-27-2006, 02:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Rape is not provoked by women wearing sexy clothes or behaving seductively - many teenagers in uniforms have been raped. It is also not an "over-spill" of sexual energy, or an impulsive crime. Rape is a violation of the victim's will and her body - no woman asks to be raped - and rape is a crime of violence using sex as a weapon. A high percentage of rapists are acquaintances, "friends" and relatives, and approximately 69.4% of rapes occurred in "safe" places (houses, schools etc.)

Zulikflim, do not talk about what you do not know. It is obvious you have no knowledge about psycology, so i will take the experts words, not some sexist shiekh who subjigates women.
Salaam,

Can you pls provide the link to your sources?
We already decided to post link when we referenced to the Holy Book,so can you do this to other subjects too.


Your post does not negate my point,it cleary shows that girls whom are beautiful or pleasing to the eyes are more often raped than not.


And again like i said earlier,that th shiekh words were not aptly put,read Zakir Naik interpretation.

It is not the woman fault but the chaces of a woman who bares herself will have a higher chance of being raped.

Simple as that.
Do you dispute with that notion?

For more about rape statistics,,umm not mine..go here..
[PIE]In a 1999 longitudinal study of 3,000 women, researchers found women who had been victimized before were seven times more likely to be raped again. (Acierno, Resnick, Kilpatrick, Saunders and Best, Jnl. of Anxiety Disorders 13, 6.)[/PIE]


[PIE]Among female rape victims, 61% are under age 18. (American Academy of Pediatrics, 1995)[/PIE]

[PIE]In a study of 6,000 students at 32 colleges in the US, 1 in 4 women had been the victims of rape or attempted rape. (Warshaw 1994)[/PIE]

http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html

[PIE]6. The majority of date and acquaintance rape victims are young women aged 16 to 24. (Helen Lenskyj, "An Analysis of Violence Against Women: A Manual for Educators and Administrators," Toronto: Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, 1992)[/PIE]



http://www.wavaw.ca/informed_stats.php


There are more and more ,,google for it.

last but not least,i do not doubt that what ever the reason for rape,control may be one of it factors,but what i am saying is that BEAUTIFUL FEMALES WHO REVEAL MORE<>>have a higher chance of being raped.
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-27-2006, 02:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Isn't this implying it's ALL the fault of the woman??

Australia's most senior Muslim cleric has prompted an uproar by saying that some women are attracting sexual assault by the way they dress.
In a sermon, Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali said that women who did not wear a hijab (head dress) were like "uncovered meat".

A transcript of the sermon has been published in an Australian newspaper.

Leading Muslim women have condemned the comments and Prime Minister John Howard said the remarks were "appalling".

"The idea that women are to blame for rapes is preposterous," Mr Howard told reporters.

But a spokesman for Sheikh Hilali said the quote had been taken out of context and referred not to sexual assault but to sexual infidelity.

Sheikh Hilali's critics have previously accused him of praising suicide bombers and claiming the attacks in the United States on 11 September 2001 were "God's work against oppressors".

The cleric's latest comments came in a sermon delivered to some 500 worshippers in Sydney last month.

If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred

Sheikh Hilali
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside... and the cats come and eat it... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?" he asked.

The uncovered meat is the problem, he went on to say.

"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred," he added.

Sheikh Hilali also condemned women who swayed suggestively and wore make-up, implying they attracted sexual assault.

"Then you get a judge without mercy... and gives you 65 years," he added.

The front page of today's Courier Mail in Brisbane has an article slandering Sheik Taj el-Din al Hilali. He has a clear case against the modern Australian media and also curiously against the corruption among the Australian police in respect of his visit to Brisbane's Eid al Fahr festival planned for November 4th.

The front page news article was used by an undercover police skin head to tempt myself into accusing him. (The skin head movement is intrinsically connected with the corruption among the theosophical society and other occultists which support the black magic of The Behemoth, which is at the heart of the Gog and Magog wars.)

What happened was that after an overt effort was made to cause that it seemed that the newspaper belonged to a cafe for use of the customers and I had asserted to the other customer that I would read it next, he got up and left with it and I followed him and reminded him that the newspaper was still in his hand. Then he provided evidence that he had purchased it, left it in the cafe and gone to the bank, and then come back to the cafe and sat down with it. I immediately apologised for having mistaken the evidence and he immediately raised his voice and publically associated the false allegation as though I had accused him of theft with the appearance of Hijab, and then he ran away from me before I could refute him.

I only wanted to read the paper because of regarding it necessary for my self to become able to defend any Muslim cleric whose public face is so foully defamed as was enacted against Sheik Taj el-Din al-Hilali. But the police seemed to have overtly assumed that in Islam I would have hated the Sheik for his natural cause in Allah. Such fools as are the corrupt Australian police.

I am very happy to learn about the false accusation that was being levelled against me since until receiving this evidence this morning I had no conscious awareness of.

Also it seems that the fact of such accusations having been causing that the whole indigenous population was not able to reconcile with each other through blindness to such accusations has been integral to establishing the patterning of the full weight of Revelations. This whole region of Australia is, only today, through this, now fully accounted for in Revelations. The last group to be accounted are the Hare Krishnas through whom such accusations were being sustained on a mass scale. As soon as I realised what had been happening I went to their restaurant and they are now in process of entering the pattern of Revelations within their conscious mind.

Therefore I thank Sheik Taj for having let his public reputation become so defamed. Clearly many of the uncovered women's bodies, in this city especially, are nothing more than meat, but we are usually only too polite to say so. The indigenous population of Australia has been working at causing that all the persons whom desire only lust and have no belief in Allah are to be exposing themselves so very clearly among us to the effect that we may openly hold them accountible without needing to enter the places where they enact lust. The hell of gog and magog in such places, which a very few of the very best minded of the Aborigine race have ventured into so as to learn of, is so disgusting that most of us are in active desire to enter the fire so as to never again need to know that such instances could have ever actualised.

My own knowledge of is only through rare instances of experiencing recollection of Dreams which the kafir shaytan have forced upon me through black magic: and may they rot in hell through me. The genetic patterns of wanting death to be the end of black magic and so finding reason in allowing oneself to become blamed for its wrong, are now all becoming "switched" on, location by location. Soon those whom set up the foul media reports about a Muslim cleric will learn their fate.

But meanwhile this whole situation has been transpiring amid signs that all the Shaytan in this region are realising their true function within the revelations prophesies and aligning with. In that I must overtly welcome, on behalf of indigenous Australians, the Sheik up to Brisbane for the Eid al Fahr celebration; and I hope that he will be able to meet with the requirement for persons of an effective Muslim eduction to enter among those whom did the poor media reporting trick so as to help us catch them.

Alaykomuasaalamu Warahmathuallahi Warabarakathauhai (I dunno where my extra vowels can fall me down, but the vowels I put in are those my conscience dictates)(so I go off to find a thread where I can reveal the extent of my knowledge about gog and magog: even I get terrified around their method) Alaykomuassaalam
Reply

lavikor201
10-27-2006, 02:59 AM
Your post does not negate my point,it cleary shows that girls whom are beautiful or pleasing to the eyes are more often raped than not.
It is saddening, frustrating as well as dangerous to see the propagation of such erroneous beliefs that not only continue to perpetuate the myths surrounding rape, but also provide the perfect environment for rape to continue.

Rape is not about sudden loss of sexual self-control due to provocation. It is a crime of violence where sex is used to demean and subjugate women.

http://www.wao.org.my/news/20030103provokerape.htm

but what i am saying is that BEAUTIFUL FEMALES WHO REVEAL MORE
Your post did not prove your point. You posted that younger females get raped, and guess what, it is because weakness. Not beauty.

Your condoning of a man who tries to blame rape on women because he cannot control his animalistic desires is appalling.
Reply

starfortress
10-27-2006, 04:52 AM
:sl:

The most important thing is we stick and live with the Islamic law because the true form of Islam is to practiced it in society.

In Islam, everything which may lead to adultery, is prohibited.The same context is pornography on TV, movies and internet or in any medium which is becoming more easy to available in the whole world.And we all know ponography has contributed to sexual crimes.And i also get what the syeikh trying to address about one of the main cause of rape.

Unlike some of the members in this forum whose have their alternative views about rape,and for myself i prefer and stick with the more realistic views about rape,such how to dealing with the over exposed dressing female,sexist behavior female,alcohol and drug misusage by both gender,education to the boys in early stage,i believe all that above criteria are the major problems contributed to the rape issue.

And the best for the women is not to be in the wrong place at the wrong time,for the Muslimin and Muslimah obeying to Islam InshaAllah, is the best solution.

Ted Bundy, the serial killer/rapist, wrote in his memoirs from prison that pornography had contributed to his addiction of killing women (42 of them) after committing rape
To me any kind of thing that lead to the sexual attraction is a combination of major problem to the sexual crimes,after viewing on all problem i think there is nothing wrong about that sheikh speeching in his sermon.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-27-2006, 05:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Read a bit about rape. It has to do with weakness, not sexual desire a majority of times. If the women in the hijab apears weak, she the majority of times will get raped, millions of psycologists and experts say.

ermm... NO!! why would a man go after a covered women. he wouldn't even look at her. (I don't meanthis as an isult fellow-muslims), because of the fact that she is covered, therefore she wouldn't stir any desires. i DON"T CARE what the psychologists and experts say.
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muzna
10-27-2006, 06:11 AM
wasnt there a thread like this called 'hijaab and rape' sometime back?
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AvarAllahNoor
10-27-2006, 07:35 AM
The only thing i agree with is, it's more liley a woman who's wearing tight, revealing clothing may be liely to get attacked, than a woman who's wearing a long dress (notice i'm not talking of wearing a hijab etc) but this is my opnion only.

What i'm against is why some muslims seem to think women are 'temptations' IT'S THE MAN WHO'S INCAPABLE OF CONTROLLING HIS DESIRES SO WHY MAKE THE WOMAN OUT TO BE THE 'MEAT' THAT'S TEMPTING??
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AvarAllahNoor
10-27-2006, 07:37 AM
BTW - In islamic countries if a woman is wearing the hijab, are you saying no rape occurs?? I'd love to know the answer to this!!
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-27-2006, 07:38 AM
so would i. Correct me if i'm wrong, but it sounds like your saying that it already does. evidence please.
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-27-2006, 07:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
The only thing i agree with is, it's more liley a woman who's wearing tight, revealing clothing may be liely to get attacked, than a woman who's wearing a long dress (notice i'm not talking of wearing a hijab etc) but this is my opnion only.

What i'm against is why some muslims seem to think women are 'temptations' IT'S THE MAN WHO'S INCAPABLE OF CONTROLLING HIS DESIRES SO WHY MAKE THE WOMAN OUT TO BE THE 'MEAT' THAT'S TEMPTING??

who wears long clothes these days (apart from muslim women i mean). I reckon you take that opinion from observing women who wear the hijab.
as for your seond point, Well, ask yourself that. Be honest. when a women who is half naked walks down the street ( as opposed to one who isn't), are you not, as a man, going to look, or at least be tempted to. don't tell me no, cause...no way.
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-27-2006, 07:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

[PIE]Among female rape victims, 61% are under age 18. (American Academy of Pediatrics, 1995)[/PIE]

http://www.wavaw.ca/informed_stats.php


There are more and more ,,google for it.

last but not least,i do not doubt that what ever the reason for rape,control may be one of it factors,but what i am saying is that BEAUTIFUL FEMALES WHO REVEAL MORE<>>have a higher chance of being raped.
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
It is saddening, frustrating as well as dangerous to see the propagation of such erroneous beliefs that not only continue to perpetuate the myths surrounding rape, but also provide the perfect environment for rape to continue.

Rape is not about sudden loss of sexual self-control due to provocation. It is a crime of violence where sex is used to demean and subjugate women.

http://www.wao.org.my/news/20030103provokerape.htm

Your post did not prove your point. You posted that younger females get raped, and guess what, it is because weakness. Not beauty.

Your condoning of a man who tries to blame rape on women because he cannot control his animalistic desires is appalling.
Waram the statistic about the prevalence of rape to younger females whom are smaller in their gentalia is that information which links the phenomena to gog and magog.

Therefore the evidence is sound that males whom rape females and align with gog and magog are those males for whom seeking to extract vanity, which the female is unconscious of being extracted, is the primary cause. A greed for vanity plot. There is one story of an early convert to Islam, and I must apologise for not recalling his name, in which he collected idols and did not convert until a friend smashed all the idols. That is the example required, so good on Taliban for smashing up the Buddha statue even if they got the most important Peace mantra posture instead of the relaxed Buddha whom fault females for pleasure.

waram

PS the acquiring of any pleasure sexually by a man from a woman, when the male ejaculates, is at cause always by making available images of the vanity of the female; and to other men whom pay him for in that pleasure: hence the extreme importance of Hijab.
waram
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AvarAllahNoor
10-27-2006, 08:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by maryam11
so would i. Correct me if i'm wrong, but it sounds like your saying that it already does. evidence please.
OK, so no-one gets raped in muslim countries? is this what you're implying? because that would be ludicrious.
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-27-2006, 08:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
OK, so no-one gets raped in muslim countries? is this what you're implying? because that would be ludicrious.
No, that not what im implying.i don't know, i don't live there, nor have i been there. what im implying is that, you made a comment, show the evidence, that what i asked.
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AvarAllahNoor
10-27-2006, 08:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by maryam11
who wears long clothes these days (apart from muslim women i mean). I reckon you take that opinion from observing women who wear the hijab.
as for your seond point, Well, ask yourself that. Be honest. when a women who is half naked walks down the street ( as opposed to one who isn't), are you not, as a man, going to look, or at least be tempted to. don't tell me no, cause...no way.
I can't answer for others, but as a Sikh i wouldn't look at any WOMAN other than my wife. This is what they call 'self control' and yes it is possible if you live according to Gods commands.

BTW - Sikh women and many caucasian women do not walk around wearing bikinIs. :rollseyes
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-27-2006, 08:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I can't answer for others, but as a Sikh i wouldn't look at any WOMAN other than my wife. This is what they call 'self control' and yes it is possible if you live according to Gods commands.

BTW - Sikh women and many caucasian women do not walk around wearing bikinIs. :rollseyes

you don't get atleast tempted to look twice, if your eyes fell on her accidently???
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AvarAllahNoor
10-27-2006, 08:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by maryam11
No, that not what im implying.i don't know, i don't live there, nor have i been there. what im implying is that, you made a comment, show the evidence, that what i asked.
OK, so you don't read/listen to the news....

Google it, or would you deny (live in your care free world) that anyting reported is a fabrication?
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AvarAllahNoor
10-27-2006, 08:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by maryam11
you don't get atleast tempted to look twice, if your eyes fell on her accidently???
Erm no! I'm atal (unshakeble) in my faith, but then you wouldn't realise the impact Sikhism and Gurbani can have in ones life! :)
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F.Y.
10-27-2006, 08:13 AM
I dont fully agree completely with what the Shiekh said, but when I picked up the same Brisbane Courier Mail this morning - and the whole thing was so sensationalised it quite scared me. Why would they wait for 3 days after Eid (since they referred to his Eid Khutbah/sermon) to attack his comments about women? Why no the next day? I believe they had nothing more to write about and thought they could sensationalise this story. Heck - its not even new! We've heard this story before - there was a debate about him saying the same stuff before.

Although I think women should dress modestly, the onus is not fully on them. Quran also states for the believing men to lower their gaze.

Peace
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AvarAllahNoor
10-27-2006, 08:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by F.Y.

Although I think women should dress modestly, the onus is not fully on them. Quran also states for the believing men to lower their gaze.

Peace
Thankyou sister, this is about both people, not just the woman. :)
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Malaikah
10-27-2006, 09:16 AM
:sl:

The sheikh was misinterpreted, thats pretty obvious, also the council at the mosque where he gave the sermon heard him out and let him explain himself, and he did that and they realise that he was indeed misinterpreted.

i wish some muslims would give the guy the benefit of the doubt before they accuse of him of being a fool and whatever else they said about him. but no they believe every word of the media who is already biased against muslims and dont even give a fellow muslim the benefit of the doubt and just start making false accusations and suggest that he resign

pathetic

SHEIK Taj Din al-Hilali has apologised for any offence caused by his comments that immodestly dressed women provoke sexual attacks.
"I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments," he said in a statement yesterday. "I had only intended to protect women's honour, something lost in The Australian's presentation of my talk."

The newspaper had translated a sermon the cleric gave a month ago.

According to The Australian's translation, he said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it . . . whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?" he asked.

"The uncovered meat is the problem.

"If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab (Islamic headscarf which covers the hair neck and shoulders), no problem would have occurred."

But the Mufti of Australia and New Zealand would not back away from his comments and said he was shocked by the way his sermon was interpreted.

"The Australian front page article reported selected comments from a talk presented one month ago," the sheik said.

"The title was 'Why men were mentioned before women for the crime of theft and woman (sic) before men for the sin of fornication'.

"I would like to unequivocally confirm that the presentation related to religious teachings on modesty and not to go to extremes in enticements, this does not condone rape, I condemn rape and reiterate that this is a capital crime.

"Women in our Australian society have the freedom and right to dress as they choose (while) the duty of man is to avert his glance or walk away.

"If a man falls from grace and commits fornication then if this was consensual, they would be both guilty, but if it was forced, then the man has committed a capital crime.

"Whether a man endorses or not, a particular form of dress, any form of harassment of women is unacceptable."


A spokesman for Sheik al-Hilali said the backlash and criticism had badly affected him and he had been depressed and confined to bed, breathing with the assistance of an oxygen tank.
Source
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-27-2006, 09:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Erm no! I'm atal (unshakeble) in my faith, but then you wouldn't realise the impact Sikhism and Gurbani can have in ones life! :)
yeah, the impact of corruption. If one cannot follow the prescribed way of the Quran and sunnah, of controlling one's desire,(or anything else for that matter) than forgot it, theres no other way.
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-27-2006, 11:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
OK, so you don't read/listen to the news....

Google it, or would you deny (live in your care free world) that anyting reported is a fabrication?
no, you made the comment, you provide the evidence.
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lavikor201
10-27-2006, 11:07 AM
why would a man go after a covered women. he wouldn't even look at her.
How do you explain little schoogirls or old ladies getting raped? Did you know 69% of the time the person raped knows the raper. Therefore, the raper isn't some guy who thinks your hot because of your clothes off the street.
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Malaikah
10-27-2006, 11:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
Therefore, the raper isn't some guy who thinks your hot because of your clothes off the street.
:sl:

Could he then be a guy who thinks your hot cos hes has interacted with you? :?

its a serious question btw cos i was using that same evidence that most rapes are by people who know you to argue against people who were agruing 'what about the little girls or old ladies?'
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-27-2006, 11:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

Could he then be a guy who thinks your hot cos hes has interacted with you? :?

its a serious question btw cos i was using that same evidence that most rapes are by people who know you to argue against people who were agruing 'what about the little girls or old ladies?'
:sl: brothers and sisters.

thats what i was trying to ask, but i couldn't get the words out of my mouth properly and into a sentence
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lavikor201
10-27-2006, 12:26 PM
Could he then be a guy who thinks your hot cos hes has interacted with you?
I think when a your raped by a friend, collegaue, ect, it isn't because the clothes you wear. Women should not be blamed for rape because they don't cover up every part of their skin exccept there eyes.

Men should take responsibility and this shiekh should stop condoning men who cannot control there desires like a bunch of animals.
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Malaikah
10-27-2006, 12:34 PM
^actually if you read my post he was misunderstood and he did say:

I condemn rape and reiterate that this is a capital crime.

Whether a man endorses or not, a particular form of dress, any form of harassment of women is unacceptable.
therefore to suggest that he is blaming women 100% is not true. he simply had the best interest of the women in mind, reminding them to dress properly to protect themselves...

no one is blaming them for rape just cos they dont cover anything expect their eyes, but when people walk around in hot pants and mini skirts, well, just dont expect much respect from the opposite gender
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Duhaa
10-27-2006, 12:41 PM
Good posts cheese. :)

When I read the story in the news the first thing i thought was, here we go again!! :rollseyes

What next?!
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Malaikah
10-27-2006, 12:49 PM
^yeh i know... weird thing is that the same issue happened last year as well!

cant they find something new to pick on and exxagerate :uhwhat
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lavikor201
10-27-2006, 12:55 PM
Of course he "condemns" :rollseyes it, yet he is still making excuses for the rapist.
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Malaikah
10-27-2006, 12:59 PM
its calling looking at the other side of story!

he isnt making excuses for anyone
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lavikor201
10-27-2006, 01:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cheese
its calling looking at the other side of story!

he isnt making excuses for anyone
There is no other side.

There is a rapist, and a victim.

If .01% of blame is put on a rape victim then it is condoning the rapist.

Making an excuse for an animal.
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Malaikah
10-27-2006, 01:06 PM
and to pretend that every single rape case that ever occured involves a victim who is 100% innocent is just lame.....

just for your info, the punishment for rape in islam is death
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lolwatever
10-27-2006, 01:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
There is no other side.

There is a rapist, and a victim.

If .01% of blame is put on a rape victim then it is condoning the rapist.

Making an excuse for an animal.
your being silly....

it's like someoen puttin themselves on railways n blaming the train driver 4 runnin em over on purpose. Both are guilty, but surely blame does go on the kiwi brain on the train tracks!!

similarly.. the rapist is a criminal (high qualified criminal), and the victim is a victim of the rapist as well as her own enticements to the other crook!!

hard 2 comprehend?

salam
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lavikor201
10-27-2006, 01:39 PM
it's like someoen puttin themselves on railways n blaming the train driver 4 runnin em over on purpose. Both are guilty, but surely blame does go on the kiwi brain on the train tracks!!
What!!!!!?!?!

That must be the sickest comparison I have ever seen.

Women should not have to worry about what to wear because hormone crazed men cannot control there sexual desires.
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Malaikah
10-27-2006, 01:49 PM
and men shouldnt have to worry that if they go outside of their homes they will be confronted with sights of semi-naked women whose presence will make them 'uncomfortable' to say the least.

ah, but i guess there are moraless men out their who will enjoy the free show

people should think about the consequances of their actions, and im not necessarily talking just about rape here.
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IzakHalevas
10-27-2006, 01:59 PM
and men shouldnt have to worry that if they go outside of their homes they will be confronted with sights of semi-naked women whose presence will make them 'uncomfortable' to say the least.

Are you suggesting that a naturaul instinct of a man when confronted by the sight of a semi-naked woman is to rape her? I am a man and I definitly do not have the urge to rape people because I cannot control myself when seeing an attractive lady.
One rape myth that disqualifies potential rapists is the idea of an uncontrollable male sexual drive. This myth serves to justify the sexual, physical, and emotional domination of the male offender over his victim by naturalizing his coercive behavior. By categorizing male sexuality as not active but reactive, this myth of uncontrollable male sexuality absolves the rapist from responsibility for his actions and blames the victim for instigating such behavior. Akin to the idea that "boys will be boys," we accept that men reach a certain point of sexual arousal at which point they lose mental control of their physical desire. This myth essentializes men, naturalizes rape, and heaps the burden of sexual morality and responsibility, for both genders, on women. In contrast, a stereotype used to qualify offenders is the rapist as serial criminal or clinically insane.


Recently I was yet again appalled at media representations of rape, when a
local TV network accounted for the cause of sexual violence with this
statement: "Women walking at night should not wear mini skirts in order to
avoid rape".

This advice was not the result of research and evidence, but of moralistic
judgements ironically aimed at female victims. To the viewers the message
that they obtain from this is that rape happens only to women wearing
seductive clothing and that the men who commit rape are unable to control
their desires as a result. Hence, rapists are the innocent targets of
seduction by "bad" women who lure otherwise good law-abiding citizens into
committing a sexual offence. Research into rape refutes that there is a necessary cause-effect relationship between seductive clothing and sexual attack. Rather, experts argue that this sort of explanation is merely a myth established to justify female oppression through the control of women's behavior.

Although there can be no qualified data to support such an explanation of
"cause", the reports of rape in the media continue to reinforce ignorant
attitudes. The Jakarta Post reported that a man broke into a woman's house
just after she had finished taking a bath. The man raped her. The Post felt
it necessary to end the report by commenting that the woman was wearing no underwear under her sarong.

As the inclusion of such information was irrelevant, what must the readership
think? A woman was raped; she was improperly dressed. Are we to believe that the woman was at fault? There are strong implications here and whether this was intentional or not, the media must accept more responsibility for the
role it has in shaping social attitudes.

To target a woman as the guilty party in her own rape has dangerous
consequences, because as long as the "cause" is accepted by society as being female seduction, then victims will be reluctant to come forward. They will fear that instead of attaining legal and social justice, they will instead
become the object of social condemnation, and accusations that they had
somehow "invited" the rape. The knock on effect can only lead to a greater
sense of impunity for sex offenders, and instead of preventing rape, may well
encourage it.

Should they choose to, it is possible for members of the media to make a
positive contribution toward rape prevention, by first challenging their own
preconceived ideas, and the way in which they report such incidents. They can begin by excluding suggestive "victim-blaming" remarks. As for the readership, we should all take a more active role in rejecting or
opposing damaging reports which promote prejudice or sexual violence. Perhaps we should consider the following advice as an alternative to that offered above: Women of any description should monitor the work of the media in order to prevent rape, because we are all potential victims, and only through actively working to change attitudes can we create a social environment in which women are encouraged to seek justice.
Reply

wilberhum
10-27-2006, 04:56 PM
and men shouldnt have to worry that if they go outside of their homes they will be confronted with sights of semi-naked women whose presence will make them 'uncomfortable' to say the least.
Oh those poor men. Such victoms. We should never expect men to control themselves.

If a totally naked woman walking down the street is not safe, there is a problem.
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wilberhum
10-27-2006, 06:45 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6090136.stm

Australia's top Muslim cleric has been barred from preaching for up to three months, after comparing immodestly dressed women to "uncovered meat".
Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali's comments, suggesting that women who did not wear a headscarf attracted sexual assault, have caused a storm of protest.
Sydney's mosque association said the suspension would give the cleric time to consider the impact of his words.
Many people - including some Muslim leaders - have called for the cleric to be dismissed from office.
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Malaikah
10-28-2006, 12:18 AM
Hey you two, before you reply, read my post!

im not necessarily talking just about rape here.
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
If a totally naked woman walking down the street is not safe, there is a problem.
Yeh, she is the problem. lets not forget, that is against the law even in australia!
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wilberhum
10-28-2006, 12:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cheese
Hey you two, before you reply, read my post!





Yeh, she is the problem. lets not forget, that is against the law even in australia!
I'm not talking about what is legal or not. I'm talking about some sicko excuse for violating someone. :grumbling :grumbling :hiding:
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Malaikah
10-28-2006, 12:41 AM
Yes the guy is still guilty if her rapes her but the women is an idiot as well. Dur.

Do not pretend that the Sheikh was trying to justify rape. He was simply making an observation and urging Muslim women to protect themselves by dressing modestly! He in no way said that rape was acceptable!

Not only that, his speech was about adultery and relationships outside of marriage- not specifically rape!
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wilberhum
10-28-2006, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cheese
Yes the guy is still guilty if her rapes her but the women is an idiot as well. Dur.

Do not pretend that the Sheikh was trying to justify rape. He was simply making an observation and urging Muslim women to protect themselves by dressing modestly! He in no way said that rape was acceptable!
Very true. a complete idiot. But it isn't criminal idioticy. Rape is.
The Sheikh never justified rape. He just equated women to a piece of meat.
What an inspirer. :hiding: :hiding: :hiding:
Have a nice weekend.
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lolwatever
10-28-2006, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
What!!!!!?!?!

That must be the sickest comparison I have ever seen.

Women should not have to worry about what to wear because hormone crazed men cannot control there sexual desires.
your being emotional now.

Tell me, most of the rape victims are niqabis/hijabis innit :?

You think a lady wearing hijab/niqab will hav the same influence on a sick-head compared to a woman wearing see thru clothes :offended:

srsly wat u think the point of hijab/niqab is besides to protect women from such crooks?? and not only rapists, but even your day2day perverts (which compromise the majority of society today)

sheesh

salams
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Malaikah
10-28-2006, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
The Sheikh never justified rape. He just equated women to a piece of meat.
He equated them to a piece of meat in the eyes of a rapist! The rapist sees them as meat! Do you deny this??
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TheRightPathI
10-28-2006, 01:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by cheese
and men shouldnt have to worry that if they go outside of their homes they will be confronted with sights of semi-naked women whose presence will make them 'uncomfortable' to say the least.
Salam, Exactly, no one wants to see that, it's a sin to see such things and it is a great fitnah for men to be exposed to such things because some men can not stop themselves from looking at such things.
Reply

lolwatever
10-28-2006, 01:05 AM
^ infact most, not some... some of them aren't ashamed 2 go tellin the girls themselves disgustin stuff... and the rest keep talkin disgustin stuff about her behind her back.... and she thinks that's something 2b proud of +o(

i hear it fromt hem every day!!

they think we're condonin rape or nething... we don't, i think they know v well the punishment 4 rape is death or possibly crucifixion, we're basically tellin women 'y the heck put urself in harms way.... prevention better than cure.. cover urselves up and ull b safe from idiots words and actions'

faaaaar outttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
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TheRightPathI
10-28-2006, 01:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lolwatever
^ infact most, not some... some of them aren't ashamed 2 go tellin the girls themselves disgustin stuff... and the rest keep talkin disgustin stuff about her behind her back.... and she thinks that's something 2b proud of +o(

i hear it fromt hem every day!!

they think we're condonin rape or nething... we don't, i think they know v well the punishment 4 rape is death or possibly crucifixion, we're basically tellin women 'y the heck put urself in harms way.... prevention better than cure.. cover urselves up and ull b safe from idiots words and actions'

faaaaar outttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
Salam, yes your absolutely right. The thing that people forget is that Islam FULLY STOPS evil and sin from happening in the first place. That is why women must cover themselves with hijab and men must lower their gaze. Alright so we'll say that a guy looks at a girl who is not covered and really likes the girl. He thinks to himself that he just wants to go out with her and just wants to hang out with her and go to the movies. It's all fun and games at first but, then the relationship starts to get serious and before you know it Zina occurs....and then imagine if the girl was pregnant... The thing I don't understand is that Islam is a peace religion that gets rid of all types of sin by making sure it doesn't happen in the first place. Here is another good example of this http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/dating.html
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Curaezipirid
10-28-2006, 03:07 AM
Waram

[QUOTE=starfortress;539665]:sl:
The most important thing is we stick and live with the Islamic law because the true form of Islam is to practiced it in society.
QUOTE]

I agree 100%. If we can not even attempt any form of integration then why are we? But proper Hijab is specifically for enabling practising Islam among the general non-Muslim population, isn't it? If a Muslim man entered my home with a family member and saw myself out of veil, then I should expect him to lower his gaze.

format_quote Originally Posted by F.Y.
I dont fully agree completely with what the Shiekh said, but when I picked up the same Brisbane Courier Mail this morning - and the whole thing was so sensationalised it quite scared me. Why would they wait for 3 days after Eid (since they referred to his Eid Khutbah/sermon) to attack his comments about women? Why no the next day? I believe they had nothing more to write about and thought they could sensationalise this story. Heck - its not even new! We've heard this story before - there was a debate about him saying the same stuff before.

Although I think women should dress modestly, the onus is not fully on them. Quran also states for the believing men to lower their gaze.
Peace
This whole issue is clearly not entirely only about what the Sheik said. I am not up on who is who in the Australian Muslim community, but Aussies tend to avoid all whose who type interactions. But the reality of the media having so very suddenly made this sort of commentary front page material, (and in that a plain clothes policeman tried to set me up to suppose he had stolen that exact paper, and then when I asserted only my own evidence in him, he would not believe that I had not accused him, and then he publically loudly connected an assertion that I accuse wrongly of theft, with my Hijab - the ridiculousness is not entirely apparent even in only that much information without knowing a few more whats of the immediate situation here), the reality is a rather obvious sudden turn in the media regard for Muslim Clerics.

However the simple fact that the Sheik has unreservedly apologised is formidable; and warranted that I have written him a letter of apology on behalf of the indigenous population, in that he was unnecessarily singled out.

format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6090136.stm

Australia's top Muslim cleric has been barred from preaching for up to three months, after comparing immodestly dressed women to "uncovered meat".
Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali's comments, suggesting that women who did not wear a headscarf attracted sexual assault, have caused a storm of protest.
Sydney's mosque association said the suspension would give the cleric time to consider the impact of his words.
Many people - including some Muslim leaders - have called for the cleric to be dismissed from office.
Actually his community were on the ABC news on Friday evening, the day of the newspaper reports, saying that they were not taking any action against Sheik Taj el-Din al-Hilali, and support him. While he is taking a self deserved vacation. The Sheik really and truly landed on his feet, with a self certainty that is seldom met among the non-indigenous population.

Waram
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-28-2006, 06:56 AM
:sl: brothers and sisters.
yeah, go sis cheese, you go girl!!
:sl:
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SirZubair
10-28-2006, 10:28 PM
May Allah Swt Bless and Protect Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali.

People, instead of indulging in Backbiting, visiti this forum :

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/inde...howtopic=27550

There are people on there who know the Shaykh Personally.

You'll get a better idea of what is Really happening, rather than half the crap reported by the Media.
Reply

TheRightPathI
10-29-2006, 02:37 AM
The Veil and the Bikini Schism

Yamin Zakaria

Just look at the contrast - recently the former foreign secretary, Jack Straw, demanded that Muslim women should remove the veil, whilst preaching freedom to them. In contrast, the Imam in Australia, Sheik Taj Din al-Hilal pointed out the consequences for society, when women dress provocatively. This is usually done intentionally or unintentionally to entice the opposite sex and nobody can dispute that it agitates the raw male instinct.

Is this another example of clash of values? May be not, as Jack Straw and Sheik Taj Din al-Hilal, would concur in opposing complete nudity in public. Therefore, both agree, and recognise that a minimum standard of clothing needs to be enforced in society, for both genders. Clothing is one of the factors that differentiate the animals from human beings! What that minimum standard should be, is at the heart of the debate, the most crucial question. However, this is ignored, as the primary focus is on maximising freedom for individuals, and not what should be the minimum dress code for greater harmony for the society as a whole.

Did the Australian Imam pose an intellectual argument or did he make insulting remarks about scantly dressed women? For example, did he call them prostitutes or animals who roam naked in the jungle without any shame? If he had done so, then he would have ‘progressed’ to the levels of Salman Rushdie, or those who drew the derogatory cartoons of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) in Denmark, or those closet racists who have now come out to vent their hate against the Muslims!

As expected, the Western media went into a state of frenzy after hearing the comments of the Australian Imam. What happened to free speech now? In short, there is no room for Muslims issuing genuine criticisms, no space for Muslims having the right to express their opinions challenging the status-quo. The media is becoming intolerant and fanatical as it claims about others in totalitarian societies. Increasingly it looks like the media of Julius Streicher in the 1930s Germany.

So, it is unacceptable when the Muslims pose a valid argument without the use of pejorative terms, and yet, when the West insults us in the crudest form, they expect us to tolerate it under free speech. Is it any surprise, the West is losing the intellectual battle against Al-Qaeda, as the London Daily Telegraph stated recently? You do not need to hire analysts, or conduct polls to establish such self-evident truths.

I was listening to the debate on the James O’Brian show on the radio. He was already incensed by the comments, and got even more enraged when non-Muslims emailed him, concurring with the views of the Australian Imam. Eventually, he suggested that the Imam should be handled physically as one cannot have a reasoned discussion with people who hold such views. Hence, Mr O’Brian is an intolerant neo-Julius-Streicher, and failing to recognise that he is the one advocating violence over dialogue and free speech. I am not sure why some of these presenters discuss subjects of this nature. I would have thought they are more qualified to debate popular culture.

Mr O’Brian claimed that the Imam’s comment exclusively blamed women for getting raped or if they suffer some type of sexual assault. I phoned in, and informed the operator that Mr James O’Brian got it completely wrong, and not for the first time. What the Imam was saying, only women who dress in a provocative manner ‘contribute’ towards these types of crimes and they have to share at least some responsibility. The operator would not let me through, as ‘he’ wanted to air some seedy story about men who ogle at women. I guess he was even less interested in free speech, and giving some voice to those voiceless people, who were being systematically demonised.

On the one hand, women are to have all the freedom (choice) and if I understand Mr Jack Straw that means: freedom to wear fewer clothes as possible. Yet, no sane person can deny the impact on the male sexual instinct by women exercising their freedom in this manner. Thus, is it unreasonable to expect women to bear some level of responsibility, so that they do not contribute towards these crimes? In the same way, would society not point fingers at those individuals who leave their money and assets unprotected, enticing the thieves? All responsible parents monitor their young daughters, as they are concerned about the predatory hot-blooded young males. The recent pictures released from Abu-Ghraib shows how nasty and hot-blooded these males are - even children are not safe from them.

The males too have a responsibility and just because they are sexually agitated, it does not give them the right to force themselves on women. Not every single male would behave according such principles, and restrain their carnal desires. Scantly dressed females should remember, especially before flirting, that for some men, if you excite them beyond a certain point they cannot retreat.

Naturally, when the opportunity arises, many men end up committing rape. This is confirmed by surveys that show a significant number of women in the US get date-raped. When men were asked if they would rape if the opportunity arises, the figures were even higher. Note, the word ‘opportunity’, meaning both sexes have the responsibility to ensure that such opportunities are not created. The constant promotion of ‘freedom’ creates selfish individuals, who give their carnal desires a greater priority, than to restrain it in order to show respect for others.

Our focus should not be to enhance freedom for both sexes, as one person’s freedom inevitably impinges on someone else’s freedom. Because, we do not live as individuals on our own islands, but collectively in a society. Rather, the focus should be to find the equilibrium between the two genders, where they can enjoy a stable relationship. Soaring divorce rates to rising single parent families are just some of the signs that clearly show we have not reached that equilibrium. This is the real debate behind the schism of the veil and the bikini.

I thought the West is yearning for a genuine debate with the Muslims. But, how can that be, when we see emotional and superficial responses coloured by their medieval heritage, from those who are bragging about the weight of their liberal values? Perhaps they expect Muslims to go on four limbs and resort to insulting also. Maybe only then Muslims will be given an EQUAL chance to express their viewpoint, under the flag of free speech!

For sure, any reasonable person knows the distinction between posing an intellectual challenge, and systematically insulting a community under the flag of free speech. At present, that seems ‘anybody’ except the very people that are shouting free speech. How ironic!

http://www.iiop.org/index3.php?recordID=184
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-29-2006, 02:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
May Allah Swt Bless and Protect Sheikh Taj el-Din al-Hilali.

People, instead of indulging in Backbiting, visiti this forum :

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/inde...howtopic=27550

There are people on there who know the Shaykh Personally.

You'll get a better idea of what is Really happening, rather than half the crap reported by the Media.

That is a good point, however I am in that boat of needing to rely upon "half the crap reported by the Media" since MV site has made a very unwelcome intervention into the Indigenous Ummah in Australia and made a great mess of it by siding with the shaytan in our community. This is a point of fact, and I hold no intention in respect of slander. But I make no false accusation; and in fact the shaytan among the Muslim community here in Australia have confessed the situation to me well ahead of my having identified the nature of the facts to my certain knowledge. The Aborigines whom are in contact with Mosques and accepted in The Ummah were cut of from the source of decision making without our community in another connection with the larger Ummah of Islam. This is the contextual information within which to place Shayk Taj el-Din al-Hilali's worth.

It might seem like many are offering to protect him simply because they know what his debts are to their individual families etc. But that is not the case.

Actually he was in the mainstream television news media this morning, on a Sunday morning news and lifestyle show. They were reporting that this might be the first time he has equated Australian streets with a meat market (which the homeless Aborigines in Brisbane were laughing about with me) but that previously he has made many other distressing comments. In fact, especially in respect of September eleven; there was another comment made which the Indigenous Ummah never supported. So while I am my self not able to get back into Muslim Village to communicate about the letter I have sent the Sheik, I could report that the coverage of the situation there is not likely to bear any representation of the work that Indigenous Muslim are commiting in managing the Peace process.

What seems at one end to be war being generated in Australia, is at our end massive efforts to work for Peace. I have myself posted more or less frequently, that there are disputes within the indigenous Australian community around what the path to peace is. These very disputes seem to be according that there is war. But obviously only because of other persons taking sides with any specific aspect of the dispute. Unfortunately also it becomes in any dispute that the shaytan will take the side of any person whom is one the brink of altering the general opinion of what the real resolution is. But to put that more bluntly, usually that fact is taken as a blessed fortune; when in fact the nature of this dispute is only because the shaytan are not wanting to side with what they are receiving evidence of, because the side of Peace winning is the side of reduced profit margins.

What is happening among the shaytan, of all races and cultures eventually, but at this time very very frequently here in Australia, and more among the Aboriginal shaytan and the Muslim shaytan; is that they are finding themselves connecting in mind to a moment in such a long distant past that they are in extreme fear of; and that in that moment they finally accept that they have not been the 'doer' of their existance in all the moments since then. It is that a true shatyan is a person whose Soul long ago experienced certain evidence that they were causal to the fault with the Earth ever having commenced; and that has prevented them from accepting Allah; but in re-experiencing that moment they suddenly realise that it was inevitable and beyond their ablity to previously comprehend. The need Islam to accept their nature in the immediate aftermath of that experience. It can only occur when they have gathered to themself enough matter of emotions with which to reform an higher matter body that is true to their nature. They are called Ants in Aboriginal Australian Dreaming because their newer emotions body is shaped similarly to the exoskeleton of an Ant. Thereafter their eyes change colour, or a white pattern condenses in the blue eyed among. Their pupils enlargen, and they need clear direction to sustain that work they have been involving themselves in, especially when they express any aversion to it, which can occur because they usually realise also that they acheived the exact opposite of what they were trying to attain. They are truly only a bit more hopeful that Humans can manifest much faith in.

I am including this passage here not because it bears any need to relate it to Sheik Taj el-Din al-Hilali's manifestation; but quite the opposite, because it relates the whole of the banter about what he is reported to have preached, properly back into the major fact in the development of a very changing current Australian media and political climate. The whole manifestation of the media coverage which the Shayk has been given is truly only symptomatic of Muslims being very vulnerable at this time among the mainstream Australian shaytan managed institutions. Many institutions are being goverened by shaytan whom are not in Islam and that is the source of the entire problem, those shaytan whom are neither with any Muslim identity or Aboriginal identity, can manifest a 'wrong landed' external comprehension of what has happened to them. Such persons existing, and many of here, is why our policing and other institutions, as well as only the criminals, are aligning too often with nazism, and forcing that many innocent persons are branded as nazis. In fact the media reports have a couched threat in them directed openly at Shayk el-Din al-Hilali, that if he failed to manifest causing the Muslim community to support nazism in policing in Australia, that he would be wrongly branded by the nazis as among them.

I believe that the Shayk will be enabled to work to prevent such matter from occuring.

I am not accorded that I know him personally, but may be able to meet him at this weekend's Eid al-Fahr celebration in Brisbane, and have tried to invite persons among the local Aboriginal population, but here in Queensland most Indigenous Australians regard Muslims as an enemy of the Ummah. Of the five+ Aboriginal men I know whom might identify as Muslim: one got drunk after pronouncing Shahadah without believing he had done wrong, and is quite brain damaged in consequence, because the Imam had no idea as to the conditions in which he became motivated to become Muslim; the only one with a connection to the Islamic Ummah in Sydney is a plain faced liar who thinks it is a joke and has been outed as trouble even among the homeless; and the others are Mujahideen whom are not known by any Mosque, and chose to identify as Indigenous above identifying with an Arab bias in the Mosques.

The publicity about the Shayk is truly effecting a large change in public opinion since most Australians are now far more readily able to preceive that Muslims are being violated in this country. Almost all Australians would not have minded any comments about the public street being an open meat market in which any Muslim might be better off covered. And as is the Australian way, we will neither refute that the Shayk has a past history of some commentary which might be regarded as awkwardly embarrassing for the whole of the Muslim Ummah, but that did not receive the same level of publicity and around which he was sancitioned by the Ummah.

But having said this much, I believe that he could well be better without any further great publicity.

waram
Reply

Curaezipirid
10-29-2006, 03:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRightPathI
The Veil and the Bikini Schism

Our focus should not be to enhance freedom for both sexes, as one person’s freedom inevitably impinges on someone else’s freedom. Because, we do not live as individuals on our own islands, but collectively in a society. Rather, the focus should be to find the equilibrium between the two genders, where they can enjoy a stable relationship. Soaring divorce rates to rising single parent families are just some of the signs that clearly show we have not reached that equilibrium. This is the real debate behind the schism of the veil and the bikini.

I thought the West is yearning for a genuine debate with the Muslims. But, how can that be, when we see emotional and superficial responses coloured by their medieval heritage, from those who are bragging about the weight of their liberal values? Perhaps they expect Muslims to go on four limbs and resort to insulting also. Maybe only then Muslims will be given an EQUAL chance to express their viewpoint, under the flag of free speech!

For sure, any reasonable person knows the distinction between posing an intellectual challenge, and systematically insulting a community under the flag of free speech. At present, that seems ‘anybody’ except the very people that are shouting free speech. How ironic!
http://www.iiop.org/index3.php?recordID=184
G'day TheRightPath,

I have quoted here only the final three paragraphs of what you report. Most of your post was very good.

However I disagree with your anaysis between the causation of the "schism between the veil and the bikini". I believe that it is rather in connection with shaytan having been promoting domestic violence among both the Muslim Ummah in Australia and the Indigenous Ummah. I have clear evidence of this if any of those with your perspective might care to enquire.

Next about medieval heritage. Don't we all have some? But that reality of disputing the worth of medieval heritage is a dispute with the worth of the action of Saladin in marrying his daughter to King Richard.

I my self can not find any but kafir shaytan (not even real shaytan but only the kafir who aspire to being like a real shaytan) whom "BRAG" about any weight in liberal attitudes.

Could I perhaps only remind you that we have all been subjected to vast quantities of policing work which is accusing us of making accusations only through our actualising any apology for our behaviour or mistaken ideas.
The only persons resorting to insulting are those not worth complaining about the contributions of, and it is in the nature of the Aboriginal Ummah to give semblence to ignoring such persons.

In the matter of free speech, I don't know what the fuss is about except that those whom own the means of Islamic web sites can manifest a far weightier control over what is being regarded as acceptable current thought stream within the Ummah

waram
Reply

IzakHalevas
10-29-2006, 03:09 AM
nobody can dispute that it agitates the raw male instinct.
Oh those poor men, all these women wearing what they choose to wear, and these victimized men are only falling prey to that raw male instinct which tells them to rape women not dressed modestly.

Please, that must be the most disgusting post I have ever read.
Reply

Malaikah
10-29-2006, 03:41 AM
No where in the article did it say it is justified for men to rape women who dress immodestly. That extrpolation exists only in your own mind.

The section you qouted was only saying that men instinctivly react to semi-naked women, no where did it say that the instinct was to rape them!!

:grumbling
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lolwatever
10-29-2006, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Oh those poor men, all these women wearing what they choose to wear, and these victimized men are only falling prey to that raw male instinct which tells them to rape women not dressed modestly.

Please, that must be the most disgusting post I have ever read.
how about replyin 2my posts line by line.... might make u think more rationally over wat we're trying to say.

according to ur line of thoughts everything should be allowed, smoking, drugs using poisons.. u name it... coz, who cares about the harm it brings to the users n those around them, they're freee!!
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SirZubair
10-29-2006, 03:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
That is a good point, however I am in that boat of needing to rely upon "half the crap reported by the Media" since MV site has made a very unwelcome intervention into the Indigenous Ummah in Australia and made a great mess of it by siding with the shaytan in our community.
HOLD ON, how did MV side with 'the shaytan in our community'?

Do you ever feel like you are crossing the line a little bit?
Reply

lolwatever
10-29-2006, 04:01 AM
Oh those poor men, all these women wearing what they choose to wear, and these victimized men are only falling prey to that raw male instinct which tells them to rape women not dressed modestly.
btw i just thought of another analogy


"Oh those poor thieves, all these people leaving their cars doors open and unlocked, and these victimized robbers are only falling prey to that raw theif instinct which tells them to steel cars left open".

therefore... we should promote ppl to leave their cars open to everyone :rollseyes

coz we shouldn't let thieves prohibit us from doin wat we want.... since u indicate that women should walk around semi naked coz we shouldnt consider the danger they're exposing themslevs to :offended:
Reply

Islamicboy
10-29-2006, 04:15 AM
I believe the people to blame are the women that make themselves objects for men. Men who cannot control themselves cuz probably they dont fear god majority of the time. Third television and the whole xxx rated enviroment person lives in. A person who follows any religion will try his best to avoid all evils. On the other hand people who dont fear god are evil who kill, rape, steal, and dont care for the punishment. In canada here the school i go to its cool to steal and whoever opposes or speaks out agiasnt it is tured out to be the bad person. O yeah majority of the people in my school are athesit who dont fear god at all. Or just dont believe in HELL! <<< Thats the problem with the world today!
Reply

lolwatever
10-29-2006, 04:18 AM
i just hope my posts dont go unnoticed agen... i thought i only get ignored in comp religion area :cry:
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justahumane
10-29-2006, 09:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by maryam11
ermm... NO!! why would a man go after a covered women. he wouldn't even look at her. (I don't meanthis as an isult fellow-muslims), because of the fact that she is covered, therefore she wouldn't stir any desires. i DON"T CARE what the psychologists and experts say.

Are u sure sister? Plz have a look on following story.


Monday, April 24, 2006

Trafficked from Pakistan, raped and jailed in Saudi Arabia

KARACHI: Sixteen-year-old Isma Mahmood was deported to Pakistan last month after serving six months in shackles and handcuffs in a prison in Saudi Arabia. Her crime: being raped by a Saudi man.

“It’s difficult for me to talk about what happened to me, from rape to prison and from prison to deportation,” Isma told AFP in the office of a rescue trust in Karachi where she sat with her sister Muna, 18, who was also deported.

Isma’s parents, originally from Multan, were trafficked to Saudi Arabia around 20 years ago. But in Isma’s case, being born in Saudi Arabia was no help when she was raped last year in Medina. “I was the victim, I was raped and molested but I was named as the accused, and the man who committed the crime was not touched,” she said.

“He first kidnapped me, dragged me into his car,” Isma said. “At first he asked me to sleep with him and offered good money. When I refused and tried to resist, he warned me of dire consequences and raped me in the car.” The unnamed man warned her she would be imprisoned if she went to the police, and said that the Saudi sponsor who brought her parents to the country through a Pakistani agent would have them all expelled. The sponsor too threatened Isma and Muna, she said, asking that the sponsor’s name not be revealed to spare her family any additional grief. “I and my sister went to the police expecting justice, but after a few hours of filing the report the police changed it,” Isma said. Under pressure from the Saudi sponsor, Isma’s parents asked her to withdraw her report. “My sister Muna tried to help me out but was also arrested and put in prison only because she spoke for me,” she said.

Once in jail, their nightmare began in earnest, Isma said. The women prisoners were mostly Pakistanis, Indonesians, Bangladeshis and Nigerians who came to Saudi Arabia through trafficking networks and were charged with prostitution, she said.

“When I used to protest against the ill treatment they beat me on my back,” Isma added. “We were chained all during this period. The only time jail officials removed the chain was during lunch or when anyone went to the bathroom or at prayer time,” she said. “Once a jail official offered me help and assured me I would be released if I agreed to sleep with him. There was a Pakistani woman who was over 40 years old and developed AIDS in prison, but she remained in chains before she was deported to Pakistan,” she added.

Isma and Muna are now in the care of the Ansar Burney Trust. “It’s pathetic that all this happened with Isma at the hands of a fellow Muslim,” the trust’s president Ansar Burney told AFP. Burney says many poor women and girls from South Asia are lured with promises of good money working as maids or nurses, but their Arab sponsors and Pakistan agents later force them into prostitution. AFP



Source:http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-4-2006_pg7_11
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-29-2006, 09:15 AM
that dosn't mention how she was dressed.
Reply

lolwatever
10-29-2006, 09:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Are u sure sister? Plz have a look on following story.


Monday, April 24, 2006

Trafficked from Pakistan, raped and jailed in Saudi Arabia
...AFP



Source:http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-4-2006_pg7_11
oh yeh.. the govs rape the top sis's day in day out... we're talking about the society here.. not the crooks. Some governments torture sis's with rape :offended:
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justahumane
10-29-2006, 09:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by maryam11
that dosn't mention how she was dressed.
Sister if u think from open mind than u will realize that its crime in Saudi Arabia for women to go out without Abaya. NO woman is allowed to dress immodestly in Saudi Arabia. U seem to be hell bent for exploring women's fault in rape,therefore U are mising these points.
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justahumane
10-29-2006, 09:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by lolwatever
oh yeh.. the govs rape the top sis's day in day out... we're talking about the society here.. not the crooks. Some governments torture sis's with rape :offended:

Brother plz read the sad story carefully, the poor girl was raped by some society man who was sure that he will get away with it. And he did. :cry:
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lolwatever
10-29-2006, 09:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by justahumane
Brother plz read the sad story carefully, the poor girl was raped by some society man who was sure that he will get away with it. And he did. :cry:
Oh yeh i did, oops sorry my fault i judged based on title... the gov does same thing too.

Subhanallah if they didn't bring 3 witnesses against her, and she didn't swear that she didnt do it, the government is wrong no doubt... read into laws pertaining to punishment of zina... beyond scope of this thread.

on a sidenote, the government enjoys raping as a punishment.... wat u xpect

salamz

ps: bak 2topic... pls dont let my posts go unnoticed... reply 2 them!! :grumbling:
Reply

strider
10-29-2006, 12:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Islamicboy
I believe the people to blame are the women that make themselves objects for men. Men who cannot control themselves cuz probably they dont fear god majority of the time. Third television and the whole xxx rated enviroment person lives in. A person who follows any religion will try his best to avoid all evils. On the other hand people who dont fear god are evil who kill, rape, steal, and dont care for the punishment. In canada here the school i go to its cool to steal and whoever opposes or speaks out agiasnt it is tured out to be the bad person. O yeah majority of the people in my school are athesit who dont fear god at all. Or just dont believe in HELL! <<< Thats the problem with the world today!
Go educate yourself brother. Seriously, some people commenting on this thread are making me really mad with the senseless posts they are making.

For the millionth time, rape isn't about sex it is about control. You don't necessarily need to be religious to know right from wrong and to know rape is wrong. Just because somebody may not share the same beliefs as you, it doesn't mean they are like wild animals and have no morals at all. Just define the word and you will realise how STUPID it is to lay blame at the door of the victim.

Rape takes place everywhere, not just in the 'corrupted West where women are dressed like pieces of meat' like many ignorant people like to think. Don't look for excuses to condone the actions of the rapist.
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IzakHalevas
10-29-2006, 12:20 PM
according to ur line of thoughts everything should be allowed, smoking, drugs using poisons..
Only someone completly out of touch of reality would compare allowing women the right to wear what they want which does not contribute to the destabilization of ones health, to drugs and poison which does.

What are you thinking when you try and put in poison and unmodest clothes in the same category?
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Malaikah
10-29-2006, 12:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Only someone completly out of touch of reality would compare allowing women the right to wear what they want which does not contribute to the destabilization of ones health, to drugs and poison which does.
In that case can you PLEASE explain to me why it is illegal to walk around naked? Because by your logic it should be perfectly legal.
Reply

IzakHalevas
10-29-2006, 12:29 PM
In that case can you PLEASE explain to me why it is illegal to walk around naked? Because by your logic it should be perfectly legal.
Walking around naked is irrelevant. It is illegal because it effects other people, but it does not effect other people or yourself in the way poison does!

The cleric does not say "naked people invite rape" he is speaking about imodestly dressed people. Therefore, in the post a few above mine, there is an illogical comparison of poison to not modestly dressed women. That my friends is just pathetic.
Reply

IzakHalevas
10-29-2006, 12:32 PM
One man's violence against one woman may seem to result from his individual psychological problems, sexual frustration, unbearable life pressures, or some innate urge toward aggression. Though each of these "reasons" has been used to explain and even justify male violence, they oversimplify a complex reality: men have been taught to relate to the world in terms of dominance and control, and they have been taught that violence is an acceptable method of maintaining control, resolving conflicts, and expressing anger. When a boss sexually harasses an employee, he exerts his power to restrict her freedom to work and improve her position. When a battering husband uses beatings to confine his wife to the home and to prevent her from seeing friends and family or from pursuing outside work, he exerts dominance and control. When men rape women, they act out of a wish to dominate or punish.

Whether or not an individual man who commits an act of violence views it as an expression of power is not the point. The fact that so many individual men feel entitled to express their frustration or anger by being violent to so many individual women shows how deeply these lessons of dominance and violence have been learned.

Countless daily acts of violence create a climate of fear and powerlessness that limits women's freedom of action and controls many of the movements of our lives. The threat of male violence continues to keep us from stepping out from behind the traditional roles that we, as women, have been taught. Violence and the threat of violence keep us "in our place."

Now that I am on my own and living free of my abuser, I can see how my life was altered when I was being battered. Little by little, he isolated me from my friends, he convinced me to quit working, he complained about how I kept the house, he kept track of the mileage on the car to make sure that I wasn't going anywhere. Eventually, when the beatings were regular and severe, I had no one to turn to and I felt completely alone.

On the surface, it seems that men benefit from sexism--from this system of male dominance, control, and violence. On a deeper level, we know that sexism harms men as well as women. Sexism, and more specifically violence against women, harms men because it harms the women and girls in their lives and because it keeps them from having positive and loving relationships with women. In recent years, some men have begun to recognize and acknowledge the ways in which relating violently toward women (and other men) harms them. Groups like "Real Men" and "Men to End Sexism" have been working to raise consciousness among other men and to teach men how to be allies of women in the effort to bring an end to violence against women.

Copyright © 1984, 1992, 1998 by the Boston Women's Health Book Collective. All rights reserved. Published by Touchstone, a division of Simon & Schuster Inc.

A suggested answer to the first question is that rape is not necessarily a crime of passion, but a crime of control and an exhibition of power. The rapist believes that his actions demonstrate power and control over the victim. The satisfaction for most rapists is not the sexual gratification of the act, but the "high of power" that ensues.
Does the way a society is engineered contribute in any way to the occurence of rape? I believe that the answer to this question must be "Yes". A society that places pressure on women to avoid and prevent rape, a society that points the finger of blame towards the victim and creates excuses for the criminal - this is a society that creates a "barrier of shame" - this barrier does two things:
-It provides implicit protection for the rapists by deflecting responsibility for the crime away from him to the victim.
-It discourages women to come forward and report crimes against them - how its the victim that's put on trial in the court of law is a well known fact. Defense lawyers scan and probe every detail of the victim: what was she wearing, is she a virgin, her sexual history, whether she was acting in a provocative manner? In an adversarial system of law, they have to do this - guilt is all about determining blame. If the defense can deflect some of it towards the women, much the better for the defendant.
http://www.aizuddindanian.com/voi/ar..._men_rape.html
Reply

lolwatever
10-29-2006, 12:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Only someone completly out of touch of reality would compare allowing women the right to wear what they want which does not contribute to the destabilization of ones health, to drugs and poison which does.

What are you thinking when you try and put in poison and unmodest clothes in the same category?
there he goes ignoring posts agen......... fine that was a crap analogy.. how about the one where i literally applied ur theorem in a similar situation.
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Malaikah
10-29-2006, 12:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Walking around naked is irrelevant. It is illegal because it effects other people, but it does not effect other people or yourself in the way poison does!
How does immodest clothing not effect other people? :uhwhat
Reply

IzakHalevas
10-29-2006, 12:59 PM
how about the one where i literally applied ur theorem in a similar situation.
Most law makers have accepted some form of the Harm Principle as justification for laws prohibiting a given behavior. The principle states, loosely, that communities are justified in prohibiting actions when those actions cause harm to others. Robbery, murder, rape, and assault harm others, and are thus justifiably prohibited by criminal law. As it stands today, criminal law prohibits most actions seriously harmful to others, and if not prohibited, the actions' harmful natures: like those of second-hand cigarette smoke, pornography, and the medical use of marijuana—are hotly debated.

There are many ways of arguing for the prohibition of an action. Legal Moralists will appeal to the immorality of the behavior in question, or to its negative effect on the "moral fabric" of our society. Legal Paternalists will appeal to the harm the act does to the actor, such as laws that mandate the wearing of seatbelts or helmets. The libertarian strain in this country tends to balk at paternalist approaches to law, and authors of legislation usually argue for the bill's merits under other terms. There are variants to each of these lines of argument. A third distinct line is relevant to naturists today. More often than not, if a new law is proposed that limits the freedom to be nude, it is justified by an appeal to offense. Any of us may be offended by any number of things. Some people are more offended by certain behavior than others are.

Public nudity supposedly offends many people. But legislators are hard-pressed to show that public nudity per se harms anyone (although some are now making unsubstantiated claims about a negative effect on children). On the other hand, legislators have little footing in showing that public nudity is immoral other than to appeal fallaciously to cultural norms. Still, legislators often wish to ban all public nudity, or may feel pressured by constituents to do so. These days, a lawmaker who wishes to ban public nudity will often argue that public nudity offends people, and that because of the seriousness of the offense, such nudity may justifiably be prohibited by criminal law.

Therefore, we ban nudity because it "offends" people, yet if we became very politically incorrect, why would we not ban other things? In a "Christian" nation would Jewish and Muslim places of worship "offend" people, because these places of worship do not pray to Jesus? To ban things because they "offend" people is much different when comparing the outlawing of an act that can "harm" people. Two different categories, and two different thought processes.

How does immodest clothing not effect other people?
Immodest clothes may very well effect other people, the males of our population are very effected by immodest clothing, but that is not the point. The point is that the effect of immodest clothing has on an average male does not encourage the male to rape the female wearing the immodest clothing. We live in a society which has advanced, and we should put the notions that females are responsible for violent crimes commited against them because of what they wear. The only thing you accomplish using this argument, is help the rapist "explain" or give him an "excuse" for the violent crimes he commited against the female.
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lolwatever
10-29-2006, 01:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cheese
How does immodest clothing not effect other people? :uhwhat
so tru... y would they teach that women r such a powerful marketing device in elementary bizness management courses!

i learnt this stuff in year final yr b4 college :offended:

2bad they dont take it further n c the problems associated with usin em as marketin tools!!
Reply

lolwatever
10-29-2006, 01:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Most law makers have accepted some form of the Harm Principle as justification for laws prohibiting a given behavior. The principle states, loosely, that communities are justified in prohibiting actions when those actions cause harm to others. Robbery, murder, rape, and assault harm others, and are thus justifiably prohibited by criminal law. As it stands today, criminal law prohibits most actions seriously harmful to others, and if not prohibited, the actions' harmful natures: like those of second-hand cigarette smoke, pornography, and the medical use of marijuana—are hotly debated.

There are many ways of arguing for the prohibition of an action. Legal Moralists will appeal to the immorality of the behavior in question, or to its negative effect on the "moral fabric" of our society. Legal Paternalists will appeal to the harm the act does to the actor, such as laws that mandate the wearing of seatbelts or helmets. The libertarian strain in this country tends to balk at paternalist approaches to law, and authors of legislation usually argue for the bill's merits under other terms. There are variants to each of these lines of argument. A third distinct line is relevant to naturists today. More often than not, if a new law is proposed that limits the freedom to be nude, it is justified by an appeal to offense. Any of us may be offended by any number of things. Some people are more offended by certain behavior than others are.

Public nudity supposedly offends many people. But legislators are hard-pressed to show that public nudity per se harms anyone (although some are now making unsubstantiated claims about a negative effect on children). On the other hand, legislators have little footing in showing that public nudity is immoral other than to appeal fallaciously to cultural norms. Still, legislators often wish to ban all public nudity, or may feel pressured by constituents to do so. These days, a lawmaker who wishes to ban public nudity will often argue that public nudity offends people, and that because of the seriousness of the offense, such nudity may justifiably be prohibited by criminal law.

Therefore, we ban nudity because it "offends" people, yet if we became very politically incorrect, why would we not ban other things? In a "Christian" nation would Jewish and Muslim places of worship "offend" people, because these places of worship do not pray to Jesus? To ban things because they "offend" people is much different when comparing the outlawing of an act that can "harm" people. Two different categories, and two different thought processes.



Immodest clothes may very well effect other people, the males of our population are very effected by immodest clothing, but that is not the point. The point is that the effect of immodest clothing has on an average male does not encourage the male to rape the female wearing the immodest clothing. We live in a society which has advanced, and we should put the notions that females are responsible for violent crimes commited against them because of what they wear. The only thing you accomplish using this argument, is help the rapist "explain" or give him an "excuse" for the violent crimes he commited against the female.
you still refuse to even look at my post n analyse it line by line......

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...tml#post542215

go on.. refute it, line by line.
Reply

IzakHalevas
10-29-2006, 01:32 PM
"Oh those poor thieves, all these people leaving their cars doors open and unlocked, and these victimized robbers are only falling prey to that raw theif instinct which tells them to steel cars left open".

therefore... we should promote ppl to leave their cars open to everyone :rollseyes

coz we shouldn't let thieves prohibit us from doin wat we want.... since u indicate that women should walk around semi naked coz we shouldnt consider the danger they're exposing themslevs to :offended:
Very odd analogy. You are suggesting that a car door left unlocked and open is comparable to women wearing immodestly dressed clothing. The faults in this analogy are very noticable because of the lack of reasoning and definition of the two crimes.

First is the term "immodestly" dressed, I will give to you that the cleric when saying "immodestly dressed" did not mean what he probably did which was not wearing a Hijab, and instead I will say that he means wearing a mini-skirt. Okay, now you say that wearing a mini-skirt in front of a male is similar to having a car door open in front of a thief. You are therefore, implying that males have the naturaul tendency, to violently subdue and have sex forcfully with women when they are wearing provacative clothing. That is just untrue. Men do not have the inclantion to rape every immodestly dressed women that moves, unlike thieves which want to steal open cars.

What you also allude to is that an open car, and a women who wear clothes but just does not cover herself complelty are very different things. An open car to a thief can be compared to a naked women in front of a hormoned crazed man.

Yet because this women is naked, or should we fault the hormoned crazed man who resorted to violently attacking and raping here.

How about this analogy. We should fault an old women for walking to her house the shortest way possible and getting robbed because she went through a bad neighborhood.

Now who are you promoting our society to attack with your point of view? The point of view you hold condemns people who use the freedom they have and tells them that they should not use those freedoms because there are bad people, and the people using freedom are just "asking for it". My point of view condemns the attackers, and promotes no tolerance in society for such people, because no amount of sexual urges, can FORCE you to rape a women. It is your choice alone to do so! When you choose this path, you are commiting an crime of violence, and you will get no condoning from me, and should not from any member of society which expects peace and goodness to prevail over good people worrying about the inclantions of bad people.
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Muezzin
10-29-2006, 01:50 PM
This debate has been held many, many times before. If any participants wish to carry it on, I invite them to use the search function and post in a relevant thread.

This thread on the other hand seems to have gone off on a tangent, rather than discussing the news story in the first post.

Therefore, I'm closing this thread.
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