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A_Witness
10-31-2006, 10:09 AM
The Christian Bible teaches: [Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"] This is taught repeatedly elsewhere in the Bible.

I try to talk to Christians about their use symbols (The cross, the "fish sign" which I believe is pagan and taken from Dagon, the god of the ancient Philistines and other symbols) which were never used in Christianity in the beginning and which I reject.

I compare the modern common Christian practice with that of Islam today which generally shuns such things, but there is one exception: The Crescent moon. In this they rub my nose.

I have been told that Islam does not even allow re-productions of their Prophet (indeed the first thing he did upon entering in victory to Mecca was to smash the graven idols!).

I have heard that the Muslim diety (I do not want to offend by using his name) is the ancient "moon god" of the Arabs, although I suspect that this is not true and I have read the post in this section of the forum which refutes that.

So "what is up" with the crescent moon?
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Caller الداعي
10-31-2006, 10:26 AM
hi friend!
myabe u should check this site out about the 'moon god' theories.
http://www.central-mosque.com/compreligion/moongod.htm
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A_Witness
10-31-2006, 11:10 AM
I checked out that site and there is no question in my mind that Dr.Morey "walks in craftiness" which is spoken against in my (and supposedly his) Holy Scriptures, but which seems to be practiced anyway by so many deceitful merchants doing business as "Christian Ministries".

2 Corinthians 4:1-2 "Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; but have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God."

I struggle to expose this type of faulty reasoning in "Christianity" almost every day and this more than anything has facilitated the animosity which keep people of our faiths from living in peace.

I know how the pagan cross was adopted (The Emperor Constantine brought all manner of unclean practices and symbols into "Christianity" for the sake of his Empire) and the excuse why it is used (which I do not accept).

I still wonder though, how and why did the Crescent moon become a symbol of Islam and how that is reconcilled with the Islamic teaching (with which I agree) that graven images are wrong?
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Goku
10-31-2006, 11:30 AM
Asslamu Alaikum (peace be to you)

According to my knowledge, the Crescent Moon symbol was never an Islamic symbol during the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) or some centuries afterwards. The crescent moon was made as a symbol by the Muslim Ottoman Empire, arguably, the crescent moon is not a symbol of Islam.
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Woodrow
10-31-2006, 11:41 AM
Sometimes the simpilist explanation is the easiest.

The Crescent Moon has no religious symbolism. It was originaly on the National flag of Turkey. During the Middle ages Turkey became synonimous with Islam for much of the world and the Turkish symbol became a recognisable feature to identify Muslims.

The only function the moon has in Islam, is that we use a Lunar calender for establishing months. The period from the sighting of the first cresent to the last phase of the moon designates a month.

The moon is our calender, it is not our diety and never was.

Muslim are not the only people to call God(swt) Allah(swt) the same word is used by Arab speaking Christians. Various forms of it are used by the Coptics and Jews. The early Aramaic speaking Christians also used it. Remember, Isa(Jesus) (a.s.) and his disciples spoke Aramaic and they used the Aramaic spelling of Allah(swt) when speaking of God(swt). Some of the early Christian words were based on it. You ever wonder about the origin of Hallalujah.
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Goku
10-31-2006, 01:15 PM
What does Hallalujah actually mean? Its a word used by Christians, I think.
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Pk_#2
10-31-2006, 01:20 PM
AsalamuAlaykum/peace be upon you and May God guide you,

The moon is our calender, it is not our diety and never was.

True say woody :)

And what does Hallaluja mean?

Thanks Tc :D
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Woodrow
10-31-2006, 01:27 PM
It means "Glory to God" Had the same original usage as our Hamdullilah, if You look up the alternative spelling Allelulia, You can see the break down as being something like Allah Illahu in the original Aramaic. Still a very popular word among fundamentalistic Christians. Oddly, the very people who are most likely to say Allah(swt) is not God(swt)
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Pk_#2
10-31-2006, 01:38 PM
Ahhh easyy!, pretty coolio :)

Allah praise be to Allah (Swt)!

Tc thanks agen WoOoDy! :D
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Goku
10-31-2006, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
It means "Glory to God" Had the same original usage as our Hamdullilah, if You look up the alternative spelling Allelulia, You can see the break down as being something like Allah Illahu in the original Aramaic. Still a very popular word among fundamentalistic Christians. Oddly, the very people who are most likely to say Allah(swt) is not God(swt)
Jazak Allah Khair brother Woodrow. We Muslims do use words like AlHumdulillah, SubhanAllah etc to glorify God, are we as Muslims allowed to say Hallalujah? Is it reccommended or discouraged?

:w:
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Woodrow
10-31-2006, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Goku
Jazak Allah Khair brother Woodrow. We Muslims do use words like AlHumdulillah, SubhanAllah etc to glorify God, are we as Muslims allowed to say Hallalujah? Is it reccommended or discouraged?

:w:
Why bother using a mispronunciation of what the word actually means when we do have Alhamdulillah, which is more in line with what the Original Aramaic was.
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Goku
10-31-2006, 02:15 PM
Yea, but its not a sin I assume? Although i always use Al-Humdulillah never halalujah.
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Woodrow
10-31-2006, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by Goku
Yea, but its not a sin I assume? Although i always use Al-Humdulillah never halalujah.
It is simply an old English word. Closer to Arabic then to English. I think for it to be a sin or not to be a sin would depend on why we are using it.

Many Arabic words have ended up in the English language. Nearly all Christian prayers end in Amen. Which come from Ameen. If we use amen instead of Ameen because that is the pronunciation we know, how could anything be wrong with that.

However, as we learn more Arabic and learn the Arabic equivilent , I believe we should use the Arabic.
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A_Witness
10-31-2006, 09:01 PM
I have suspected that "Amen" came from the ancient Egyptian diety "Amun" and I have not ended my prayers with amen for some time. There is much pagan practice which has crept into Christianity. I know that the translators of the King James Version Bible (KJV) used the word amen at least once.

What is the origin or meaning of "Ameen"?
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Woodrow
10-31-2006, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by A_Witness
I have suspected that "Amen" came from the ancient Egyptian diety "Amun" and I have not ended my prayers with amen for some time. There is much pagan practice which has crept into Christianity. I know that the translators of the King James Version Bible (KJV) used the word amen at least once.

What is the origin or meaning of "Ameen"?
Ameen in Arabic means roughly "The truth was spoken" There are similar equivelant words in the other 2 semetic languages, Hebrew and Aramaic. slight variation in spelling but still sound and mean the same as Ameen. The early Christians spoke Aramaic up until the time of Paul.

Always struck me as odd that as soon as the Greek versions of the Bible were written, most of the original Aramaic writings conveniantly disappeared.
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Pk_#2
10-31-2006, 09:57 PM
AsalamuAlaykum,

i thought it meant 'Let it be'

same as the meaning of 'Amen' in the hebrew bible,

could be wrong

Allahu Alim (Allah knows best)

Tc!
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Woodrow
10-31-2006, 10:12 PM
Like many semetic words it is difficult to find an exact English meaning. The feeling that it conveys is a sense of agreement and truthfullness. Many English phrases do approach the meaning, but none quite achieve it. Some phrases you will find are:


"As it was spoken"
"It is the truth"
God(swt) has spoken"

Many more phrases are often used as the interpretation. The main thing is it conveys an acceptance of the statement as being true.
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syilla
11-01-2006, 12:55 AM
we already discuss about this...please go to the below link

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...-crescent.html
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Woodrow
11-01-2006, 04:09 AM
Now I know why I felt like this was a deja-vu experience.
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Goku
11-01-2006, 05:16 PM
Interesting.

Brother Woodrow, as an Ex-Christian convert to Islam, can you tell me why Christians worship idols of Isa/Jesus (PBUH) even though the Old Testament forbids idolatry?
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Andaraawus
11-01-2006, 05:43 PM
please refer to my post in this same section "is Allah really a moon-god"
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Abdul-Raouf
11-01-2006, 05:46 PM
Why are you christians using "J" instead of "Y" in many of your names?.....
eg: John, Jesus, Jasmin(use Yasmin), Jacob(use Yakub), Joseph(use Yousuf).....

Use Y for easy/correct pronunciation.....
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Woodrow
11-01-2006, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Goku
Interesting.

Brother Woodrow, as an Ex-Christian convert to Islam, can you tell me why Christians worship idols of Isa/Jesus (PBUH) even though the Old Testament forbids idolatry?
My former Christian beliefs were as a Roman Catholic. In my younger days I was very devout and did all the expected Catholic stuff from Catechism classes to CYO and later Knights of Columbus.

At no time did I ever worship any statues or was told or instructed to. The Catholic Churches are the Churches people refer to when talking about statues. Although the Protestant and fundamentalistic denominations accuse catholics of worshipping statues they don't. The statues are simply art work and/or physical representations of people worth modeling your life after. Catholics do believe that Saints in Heaven are able to hear the living so Catholics do talk to saints, but they do not worship them.

While I was Catholic I used to think it was rediculous that people believed Catholics worshipped statues. My reverting to Islam was for many reasons but none of the reasons had to do with alleged worship of statues.
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`Abd al-Azeez
11-02-2006, 01:52 AM
Did anybody notice that all great religions turn their prophets/holy people into idols and eventually gods? Look at Krishna in Hinduism, Jesus (peace be upon him) in Catholicism and you have Buddha statues in Buddhism. I'm glad the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) forbade any physical representation of him in the form of idols, portaraits etc.
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snakelegs
11-02-2006, 07:48 AM
Originally Posted by Goku
What does Hallalujah actually mean? Its a word used by Christians, I think.
it is hebrew
hallel =praise, thanksgiving
yah = god
hallelujah = praise god.
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north_malaysian
11-02-2006, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
it is hebrew
hallel =praise, thanksgiving
yah = god
hallelujah = praise god.
ooohhh

so:

hallelujah = alhamdulillah ?
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snakelegs
11-02-2006, 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
ooohhh

so:

hallelujah = alhamdulillah ?
yup
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snakelegs
11-02-2006, 08:57 AM
btw, what is the difference between
alhamdulillah and subhan allah - they are the same?
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AvarAllahNoor
11-02-2006, 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
.

Muslim are not the only people to call God(swt) Allah(swt) the same word is used by Arab speaking Christians. Various forms of it are used by the Coptics and Jews. The early Aramaic speaking Christians also used it. Remember, Isa(Jesus) (a.s.) and his disciples spoke Aramaic and they used the Aramaic spelling of Allah(swt) when speaking of God(swt). Some of the early Christian words were based on it. You ever wonder about the origin of Hallalujah.
Can i just add...if the name Allah was referring to a 'moon God' it would never have been mentioned in the Guru Granth Sahib - Sikh sacred book.
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AvarAllahNoor
11-02-2006, 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by `Abd al-Azeez
Did anybody notice that all great religions turn their prophets/holy people into idols and eventually gods? Look at Krishna in Hinduism, Jesus (peace be upon him) in Catholicism and you have Buddha statues in Buddhism. I'm glad the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) forbade any physical representation of him in the form of idols, portaraits etc.
YES! - I've noticed this too, and i'm glad Sikhs don't do this as this would be be against what Guru Nanak Ji taught :)
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Muhammad
11-02-2006, 10:54 AM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by snakelegs
alhamdulillah and subhan allah - they are the same?
Alhamdulillah means Praise be to Allaah, whereas SubhanAllaah means Glory be to Allaah.
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snakelegs
11-03-2006, 12:55 AM
thanks, muhammad
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A_Witness
11-03-2006, 10:36 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
My former Christian beliefs were as a Roman Catholic. In my younger days I was very devout and did all the expected Catholic stuff from Catechism classes to CYO and later Knights of Columbus.

At no time did I ever worship any statues or was told or instructed to...
I understand. I have seen photo's of people kissing the feet of statues (one was a statue of "Jupiter", renamed "Peter") and this seems to be a form of worship to me.

I find it interesting that graven images were forbidden in the 10 commandments and the "Protestant" sector of the faith bristles at this practice in the Roman Church, yet many "Protestant Churches" have displayed a painting (image) said to represent Jesus (whose likeness we do not know) and which follow many other practices ("Sunday" worship etc.) which began in the Roman Church anyway.

The fingers of judgment always seem to point away from the pointers. I would also like to note that idolatry does not need an image to be practiced. If the true faith given in the teachings (Bible) we have were followed, we would be too busy judging ourselves to avoid eternal condemnation, having no time to judge others.

As one popular song once put it "Minding other peoples business seems to be "high tone", but I've got all that I can do just minding my own..."

I am not accusing you of these practices Woodrow, but what is called Chrisendom worldwide.
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