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InToTheRain
11-01-2006, 07:48 PM
:sl:

Here is a great talk on this matter: Mathematical miracles of the Qur'an

Here are some of the miracles:

in the Quran it says man and woman are equal - man is mentioned 24 times in the Quran and so is woman mentioned 24 times.

The statement of "seven heavens" is repeated seven times. "The creation of the heavens (khalq as-samawat)" is also repeated seven times.

"Day (yawm)" is repeated 365 times in singular form, while its plural and dual forms "days (ayyam and yawmayn)" together are repeated 30 times. The number of repetitions of the word "month" (shahar) is 12.

The number of repetitions of the words "plant" and "tree" is the same: 26

The word "payment or reward" is repeated 117 times, while the expression "forgiveness" (mughfirah), which is one of the basic morals of the Qur'an, is repeated exactly twice that amount, 234 times.

When we count the word "Say," we find it appears 332 times. We arrive at the same figure when we count the phrase "they said."

The number of times the words, "world" (dunya) and "hereafter" (akhira) are repeated is also the same: 115

The word "satan" (shaitan) is used in the Qur'an 88 times, as is the word "angels" (malaika).

The word faith (iman) (without genitive) is repeated 25 times throughout the Qur'an as is also the word infidelity (kufr).

The words "paradise" and "hell" are each repeated 77 times.

The word "zakah" is repeated in the Qur'an 32 times and the number of repetitions of the word "blessing" (barakah) is also 32.

The expression "the righteous" (al-abraar) is used 6 times but "the wicked" (al-fujjaar) is used half as much, i.e., 3 times.

The number of times the words "Summer-hot" and "winter-cold" are repeated is the same: 5.

The words "wine" (khamr) and "intoxication" (saqara) are repeated in the Qur'an the same number of times: 6

The number of appearances of the words "mind" and "light" is the same: 49.

The words "tongue" and "sermon" are both repeated 25 times.

The words "benefit" and "corrupt" both appear 50 times.

"Reward" (ajr) and "action" (fail) are both repeated 107 times.

"Love" (al-mahabbah) and "obedience" (al-ta'ah) also appear the same number of times: 83

The words "refuge" (maseer) and "for ever" (abadan) appear the same number of times in the Qur'an: 28.

The words "disaster" (al-musibah) and "thanks" (al-shukr) appear the same number of times in the Qur'an: 75.

"Sun" (shams) and "light" (nur) both appear 33 times in the Qur'an.

In counting the word "light" only the simple forms of the word were included.
The number of appearances of "right guidance" (al-huda) and "mercy" (al-rahma) is the same: 79

The words "trouble" and "peace" are both repeated 13 times in the Qur'an.

The words "man" and "woman" are also employed equally: 23 times.

Will they not ponder the Qur’an? If it had been from other than Allah, they would have found many inconsistencies in it.
(Qur’an, 4:82)

The number of times the words "man" and "woman" are repeated in the Qur'an, 23, is at the same time that of the chromosomes from the egg and sperm in the formation of the human embryo. The total number of human chromosomes is 46; 23 each from the mother and father.

"Treachery" (khiyanah) is repeated 16 times, while the number of repetitions of the word "foul" (khabith) is 16.

"Human being" is used 65 times: the sum of the number of references to the stages of man's creation is the same: i.e.

Human being 65

Soil (turab) 17

Drop of Sperm (nutfah) 12

Embryo ('alaq) 6

A half formed lump of flesh (mudghah) 3

Bone ('idham) 15

Flesh (lahm) 12

TOTAL 65

The word "salawat" appear five times in the Qur'an, and Allah has commanded man to perform the prayer (salat) five times a day.

The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "sea" 32 times, giving a total of 45 references. If we divide that number by that of the number of references to the land we arrive at the figure 28.888888888889%. The number of total references to land and sea, 45, divided by the number of references to the sea in the Qur'an, 32, is 71.111111111111%. Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today.238
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MusLiM 4 LiFe
11-01-2006, 07:50 PM
didnt we have dis b4? :rollseyes

good post bro :D:D
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InToTheRain
11-01-2006, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MusLiM 4 LiFe
didnt we have dis b4? :rollseyes

good post bro :D:D
:sl:

Probably did :rollseyes just bieng runing into a lot of maths lately, in the general section and Halal fun section so thought its a nice reminder :D see the vid also its very good Mash'Allah.
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wilberhum
11-01-2006, 08:32 PM
in the Quran it says man and woman are equal - man is mentioned 24 times in the Quran and so is woman mentioned 24 times.
Miracle?
Lincoln's secutary was named Kenedy. Kenedy's secutary was named Lincoln. Now that's a Miracle.
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Muhammad
11-01-2006, 08:36 PM
Greetings,

Not a mathematical one :).

P.S. The other thread is here: http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...tml#post170015
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Trumble
11-01-2006, 08:48 PM
Hmmmm.. the word "miracle" seems to be used somewhat lightly these days!

Why do I have a sneaking suspicion you could pull Shakespeare, Voltaire or a Dan Brown off the shelf and you would find plenty of similar 'miracles' if you looked for them? And no, I can't be bothered to try.
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MusLiM 4 LiFe
11-01-2006, 08:49 PM
but dnt u get it? the whole point is therez so many miracle and amazin factz in da quran dat we havent evn realised yet!
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IzakHalevas
11-01-2006, 09:55 PM
I see some faults in the logic of the post.
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InToTheRain
11-01-2006, 10:26 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Shukran for the link bro

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Hmmmm.. the word "miracle" seems to be used somewhat lightly these days!

Why do I have a sneaking suspicion you could pull Shakespeare, Voltaire or a Dan Brown off the shelf and you would find plenty of similar 'miracles' if you looked for them? And no, I can't be bothered to try.
;D ...well I guess we will never know till you try, good luck!

format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
I see some faults in the logic of the post.
feel free to elaborate.
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IzakHalevas
11-01-2006, 10:36 PM
feel free to elaborate.
The worlds mathematicians already have.

I'm curious to find what the source for the statistic of exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today is from. Just curious about the number.
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InToTheRain
11-01-2006, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
The worlds mathematicians already have.

I'm curious to find what the source for the statistic of exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today is from. Just curious about the number.
Well I googled for you, but came up with no reference to the exact proportion :cry: but it is ABOUT 71%:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_(planet)
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Joe98
11-01-2006, 11:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by WnbSlveOfAllah
The number of repetitions of the words "plant" and "tree" is the same: 26

What a miracle!

In the Bible, Jesus cleaned a temple to show that no man is better than any other. This is a part of the Christain teaching.

How many times does the word "temple" appear in the Bible? Nobody cares because the issue is trivial!
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-01-2006, 11:14 PM
:sl:

The reason we believe the Quran to be the Truth, and the Messenger of Allah to be the Truth, and Islam to be the Truth, is not because of these mathematical miricles. They may exist, or they may not. But regardless, Islam is still Truth. We should try and understand the apparent meaning of the Quran before we move on to finding these things and seeking a deeper "hidden" meaning of the Quran. The Sahabas never cared if the Quran contained a mathematical miracle or not, but they understood the Quran better than us and were the best of the Ummah and of mankind after the Prophets.

My 2 cents.

:w:
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wilberhum
11-01-2006, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
What a miracle!

In the Bible, Jesus cleaned a temple to show that no man is better than any other. This is a part of the Christain teaching.

How many times does the word "temple" appear in the Bible? Nobody cares because the issue is trivial!
I care. :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
It could prove once and for all that the Bible is the inspired word of gol :hiding: :hiding: :hiding:
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جوري
11-01-2006, 11:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I care. :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
It could prove once and for all that the Bible is the inspired word of gol :hiding: :hiding: :hiding:
Who is gol?
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wilberhum
11-01-2006, 11:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Who is gol?
He is the alter ego of god. :giggling: :giggling: :hiding: :hiding:
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جوري
11-01-2006, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
He is the alter ego of god. :giggling: :giggling: :hiding: :hiding:
You might want to lighten up on the load of whatever you are smoking......
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InToTheRain
11-02-2006, 12:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
What a miracle!
well thanks for the posstive feedback Joe98 :ooh: and here I thought you only come to this forum to flame the muslims...I feel so ashamed for having such a poor judge of character imsad

format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I care. :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
It could prove once and for all that the Bible is the inspired word of gol :hiding: :hiding: :hiding:
eh...which version of the Bible you reading?^o)
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thirdwatch512
12-05-2007, 12:56 AM
I just happened to type n "number miracle" and found this thread.

Um.. This seems to contradict what the sheikh on islamqa has to say..
Question:
I read some 'miracles' of the qur'an recently. These included many things such as the 3 stages of embryos, the orbits of planets, etc etc. However, one of them claimed that the word yawm (day) is mentioned 365 times in the qur'an, and the word qamar is mentioned 12 times in the quraan. I forget how many times the word ayyaam is mentioned. However, a friend pointed out that the islamic calender does not have 365 days in it. What does this mean about the islamic calender? That it is wrong? Or that God knew that most of the world would use the Gregorian calender and that this is a sign that it is the correct one?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

Many people are infatuated by the different types of miracles in the Qur’aan, including the “numerical miracles”. In newspapers and magazines and on the internet they publish lists of words that are repeated a number of times that corresponds to their structure, and words that are repeated the same number of times as their opposites. They also claim that the word yawm (day) is repeated 365 times and the word shahr (month) is repeated 12 times, and they do this with other words too, such as al-malaa’ikah (angels) and al-shayaateen (devils), and al-dunya (this world) and al-aakhirah (the Hereafter), etc.

Many people think that these numbers are true and that this is one of the miracles of the Qur’aan, but they do not distinguish between subtleties and miracles.
Writing a book which contains a specific number of certain words is something that anyone can do; what is so miraculous about that? The miracle that appears in the Book of Allaah is not like these subtleties, rather it is far deeper and greater than that. It is the fact that the most eloquent and well-spoken of the Arabs could not produce anything like the Qur’aan, or ten soorahs of it, or even one soorah. It is not like these subtleties that any writer could produce in any book that he writes, or more.

It should be noted that some people have taken this beyond mere statistics. Some of them have used these numbers to foretell when the state of Israel will fall, and others have used them to say when the Day of Judgement will be. One of the latest fabrications against the Book of Allaah is that which they have published saying that the Qur’aan foretold the explosions in the towers in New York! Based on the number of the verse in al-Tawbah, and the number of the soorah and juz’. All of that is toying with the Book of Allaah which is caused by ignorance of the true nature of the miracle of the Book of Allaah.

Secondly:

By examining the statistics presented by those who have published these numbers, we find that they did not get the numbers of some phrases right, and some of them have been selective in the way they counted the words, and that is so that they might reach the conclusion they want and that they think is in the Book of Allaah.


Shaykh Dr. Khaalid al-Sabt said:

Dr. Ashraf ‘Abd al-Razzaaq Qatanah presented a “study of the numerical miracles in the Holy Qur’aan” which he published in a book entitled: “The Qur’aan and the Numerical Miracles, a critical study of the numerical miracles of the Holy Qur’aan.” In the conclusion to this book he reviews three other books: (1) I’jaaz al-Raqm 19 (The miracle of the number 19) by Baasim Jaraar; (2) al-I’jaaz al-‘Adadi fi’l-Qur’aan (the numerical miracle in the Qur’aan) by ‘Abd al-Razzaaq Nawfal; and (3) al-Mu’jizah (the miracle) by ‘Adnaan al-Rifaa’i. The author reached a conclusion which he describes as follows:

As the result of my study I reached the idea that the “numerical miracle” as presented in these books is not real at all, and these books are based on conditions that are sometimes selective , in order to prove the validity of this view in a way that will make the reader accept these preconceived results referred to above. These selective conditions sometimes lead the author to go against that which is proven according to the consensus of the ummah, such as going against the spelling of the ‘Uthmaani Mus-haf, which is not permissible at all; or adopting the spelling of some words which appears in some Mus-hafs and without paying attention to the spellings in other Mus-hafs. It also goes against basic principles of the Arabic language with regard to synonyms and antonyms.

p. 197, Damascus, Manaar li’l-Nashr wa’l-Tawzee’, first edition, 1420 AH/1999 CE.

Dr. Fahd al-Roomi said something similar about the selective way in which Dr ‘Abd al-Razzaaq Nawfal chose words in order to reach this numerical balance, such as when he said: The word yawm (day) is mentioned 365 times in the Qur’aan, the number of days in a year. In order to prove this he counted the words “al-yawm” and “yawman” but he ignored words such as “yawmukum” (your day) and “yawmuhum” (their day) and yawma’idhin (on that day), because if he had done that, he would have got a different number. The same applies to the word al-isti’aadhah which refers to seeking refuge from the shaytaan. He says that it is repeated 11 times, but he includes in that the words “a’oodhu” (I seek refuge) and “fasta’idh” (seek refuge) but not “ ‘udhtu” (I sought refuge) or “ya’oodhoona” (they seek refuge) or “u’eedhuha” (I seek refuge for her) or “ma’aadh Allaah” (Allaah forbid).

See: Ittijaahaat al-Tafseer fi’l-Qarn al-Raabi’ ‘Ashara (2/699, 700), Beirut, Mu’sasat al-Risaalah, second edition, 1414 AH.

From this well-founded discussion, the answer to the issue of the word “yawm” and the number of times it appears in the Qur’aan, which is mentioned in the question, is clear.

Thirdly:

With regard to the count (of time) (al-hisaab, mentioned in Yoonus 10:5) that Allaah has mentioned in His holy Book, it is the precise count (of time) that does not differ as the years pass, which is the lunar count (of time).

With regard to the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“And they stayed in their Cave three hundred years, adding nine”

[al-Kahf 18:25],

some of the scholars have stated that the number 300 refers to solar years, and that the number 309 refers to lunar years. This view was refuted by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen, who explained in his refutation that the count (of time) with Allaah is lunar, not solar.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

“adding nine” means that they added nine years to three hundred, so they stayed there for three hundred and nine years. It may be said: Why doesn’t it just say three hundred and nine?

The answer is that this is what is meant, but the Qur’aan is the most eloquent of books, and in order for the ends of the verses to match (in Arabic) it says: “And they stayed in their Cave three hundred (solar) years, adding nine (for lunar years)”. It is not as some people think, that the three hundred refers to solar years and the nine was added for lunar years, because we cannot testify that Allaah meant that. Who can testify that this is what Allaah meant? Even if it so happens that three hundred solar years are equal to three hundred and nine lunar years, we cannot testify about Allaah in this way, because the count (of time) with Allaah is one.

What are the signs by which the count (of time) is reckoned with Allaah?

The answer is that they are the new moons; hence we say that the view that “three hundred years” refers to solar years and “adding nine” refers to lunar years, is a weak view.

Firstly: because we cannot testify that Allaah meant this.

Secondly: because the number of months and years with Allaah is based on the new moons. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for it; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time)”

[Yoonus 10:5]

“They ask you (O Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about the new moons. Say: These are signs to mark fixed periods of time for mankind and for the pilgrimage”

[al-Baqarah 2:189]

Tafseer Soorat al-Kahf.

Reckoning time by the moon and the new moons was well known to the Prophets and their peoples, and reckoning time by the sun was only known to the ignorant followers of false religions, but unfortunately many Muslims follow them nowadays.

Dr Khaalid al-Sabt says, in his refutation of those who say that the verse “The building which they built” [al-Tawbah 9:11] in al-Tawbah refers to the explosions in America:

5 (the fifth point) – These connections are based on the solar calendar, which is a calendar that was inherited from idolatrous nations, and which was of no significance to the Prophets (blessing and peace be upon them). Rather the calendar that counts in sharee’ah is the calendar that is based on the moon and new moons, which is more precise. This indicates that what was known to the Prophets was the lunar calendar. In the hadeeth of Waathilah ibn al-Asqa’ (may Allaah be pleased with him) it says that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Suhuf of Ibraaheem were revealed to him on the first night of Ramadaan, and the Tawrat (Torah) was revealed on the sixth of Ramadaan, and the Injeel (Gospel) on the thirteenth of Ramadaan, and the Furqaan (Qur’aan) was revealed on the twenty-fourth of Ramadaan.” Narrated by Ahmad (4/107) and by al-Bayhaqi in al-Sunan (9/188). Its isnaad is hasan. It was also mentioned by al-Albaani in al-Saheehah (1575). This could not be known unless the calendar was based on the moon and new moons. This is also indicated by the hadeeth which was narrated in al-Saheehayn from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) who said: When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Madeenah, he found the Jews fasting on the day of ‘Ashoora’. He said: “What is this?” They said: This is a good day, this is the day on which Allaah saved the Children of Israel from their enemies. So Moosa fasted on that day … Narrated by al-Bukhaari (2004) and Muslim (1130). And al-Haafiz (may Allaah have mercy on him) stated clearly that they did not base their count (of time) on the sun. See: al-Fath (4/291 and 7/323).

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, commenting on the verses “It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages” [Yoonus 10:5] and “And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk” [Yaa Seen 36:38, 39]: Hence the lunar calendar was better known among the nations and was less likely to involve errors, and it is more precise than the solar calendar, and all people can follow it easily. Hence Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “and measured out for it stages that you might know the number of years and the reckoning” [Yoonus 10:5]. But He did not say that about the sun, hence the months of Hajj, fasting, Eid and other Islamic occasions are based on the lunar calendar. This is by the wisdom of Allaah and His mercy, and so as to protect His religion, as the people may all be able to figure out this count of time easily and avoid mistakes, and so that no differences or confusion would happen to the religion as happened to the people of the Book.

End quote from Miftaah Daar al-Sa’aadah, p. 538, 539.

It may be understood from the last comment of Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) that the people of the Book used to follow a solar calendar, and this was stated clearly by al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) in his response after he attributed this view to Ibn al-Qayyim. See al-Fath (7/323).

But in fact it played no role in their religion, rather it was introduced after that by the ignorant among them. End quote.

Concerning the things we learn from the verse “They ask you (O Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about the new moons…”, Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

… and we learn that the fixed periods of time for all nations are the fixed periods of time that were established by Allaah for them – which are the new moons – so these are global fixed periods of time, because Allaah says “fixed periods of time for mankind”. As for what has happened recently, namely the adoption of the European calendar, there it has no tangible basis and it makes no sense and is not prescribed in sharee’ah. Hence you find that one month has twenty-eight days and some have thirty days and some have thirty one, without any known reason for this discrepancy. Moreover these months have no physical sign that the people can refer to in order to work out time, unlike the lunar months which have a physical sign that is known to everyone. End quote.

Tafseer al-Baqarah (2/371).

Al-Qurtubi said, commenting on the verse “Verily, the number of months with Allaah is twelve months (in a year), so was it ordained by Allaah on the Day when He created the heavens and the earth” [al-Tawbah 9:36]: This verse indicates that rulings on acts of worship and other matters must be connected to the months and years that were known to the Arabs, and not those that were used by the Persians, Byzantines or Copts, and they should not be more than twelve months, because they vary in the number of days; some of them being thirty days and some of them being more or less. But the months of the Arabs never exceed thirty days, although some of them may be less; the ones that are less are not any specific months, rather that varies according to variations in the moon’s movement through the sky. End quote. Tafseer al-Qurtubi (8/133).

And Allaah knows best.
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref...&txt=numerical
And, yusuf estes does not believe in it..
Another area to avoid is the misconception about the "miracle of numbers" in the Quran. The stories are many and all of them are false. There is no miracle of "19" in the Quran; this not the occurance of the word "day" and "night" 365 times (the Muslim calendar is 354 days anyway); the words "angel" and "devil" do not occur the same number of times; and all of the mathematical equasions mentioned about the earth and the water are worthless to someone who is trying to understand about Allah and Islam. So please stop this propaganda and DO NOT FORWARD these messages to everyone on your list.

That is NOT dawah. That is a waste of time and energy. The fact is, that this will turn people away from the truth and destroy the pure message of Islam.
http://www.islamtomorrow.com/dawah/dawah1.asp
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Whatsthepoint
12-05-2007, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
in the Quran it says man and woman are equal - man is mentioned 24 times in the Quran and so is woman mentioned 24 times.

The number of times the words "man" and "woman" are repeated in the Qur'an, 23, is at the same time that of the chromosomes from the egg and sperm in the formation of the human embryo. The total number of human chromosomes is 46; 23 each from the mother and father.
:):?
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ranma1/2
12-11-2007, 12:05 AM
does anyone here have a an exact lists of where these words are listed?
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Isambard
12-11-2007, 12:11 AM
Anyone else watch the movie, "The Number 13"?
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Resigned
12-11-2007, 01:21 AM
The web is rife with various websites citing these alleged “miracles” (mathematical or otherwise), in the Koran. I’m always concerned with those who cut and paste them onto discussion boards without ever taking the time to explore them. When the gullible try to extend the reach of their holy books beyond the spiritual, it tends toward a backward society.

That's not to say that the spiritual message of holy books is inappropriate, but take, for instance, the verses from the Koran that are most often used to shoehorn in on science. They're wrong. Lamps in heaven, planets as ornaments. That's absurd. It holds back science. It gives reasons to those who would pillory scientific progress without investigating it in anything other than a holy book. Their animosity to open investigation is palpable. Scientific advances continually disprove religious “truths” and prune back the overreaching of religion into science. The earth isn't flat. Species evolved. These are not spiritual facts, they're material. And when religionists proclaim they've found a verse in a holy book that contradicts them, they're wrong because they've read into the verse something beyond its spiritual intent.
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ranma1/2
12-11-2007, 01:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Resigned
The web is rife with various websites citing these alleged “miracles” (mathematical or otherwise), in the Koran. I’m always concerned with those who cut and paste them onto discussion boards without ever taking the time to explore them. When the gullible try to extend the reach of their holy books beyond the spiritual, it tends toward a backward society.

That's not to say that the spiritual message of holy books is inappropriate, but take, for instance, the verses from the Koran that are most often used to shoehorn in on science. They're wrong. Lamps in heaven, planets as ornaments. That's absurd. It holds back science. It gives reasons to those who would pillory scientific progress without investigating it in anything other than a holy book. Their animosity to open investigation is palpable. Scientific advances continually disprove religious “truths” and prune back the overreaching of religion into science. The earth isn't flat. Species evolved. These are not spiritual facts, they're material. And when religionists proclaim they've found a verse in a holy book that contradicts them, they're wrong because they've read into the verse something beyond its spiritual intent.
ive seen the web declartation of number miracles but they never show the verse. id love to find a program where you can look up particualr words. and their variants.
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snakelegs
12-11-2007, 02:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Ubaydullah
:sl:

The reason we believe the Quran to be the Truth, and the Messenger of Allah to be the Truth, and Islam to be the Truth, is not because of these mathematical miricles. They may exist, or they may not. But regardless, Islam is still Truth. We should try and understand the apparent meaning of the Quran before we move on to finding these things and seeking a deeper "hidden" meaning of the Quran. The Sahabas never cared if the Quran contained a mathematical miracle or not, but they understood the Quran better than us and were the best of the Ummah and of mankind after the Prophets.

My 2 cents.

:w:
the best post on this entire thread.
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 06:43 PM
Forget these so called skeptics, doesn't our Holy Quran say about such people who mock the signs and miracles which God has shown them:

And, when they see a sign, turn it to mockery
(As Saffat 37:14)

These people's vain desires and ego is threatened by the manifest proofs of the Holy Quran, which is a living heavenly miracle. A fountain of miracles that will never go dry, and each generation will continue to discover more marvelous signs from the casket of jewels.
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Isambard
12-13-2007, 06:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
Forget these so called skeptics, doesn't our Holy Quran say about such people who mock the signs and miracles which God has shown them:

And, when they see a sign, turn it to mockery
(As Saffat 37:14)

These people's vain desires and ego is threatened by the manifest proofs of the Holy Quran, which is a living heavenly miracle. A fountain of miracles that will never go dry, and each generation will continue to discover more marvelous signs from the casket of jewels.
We wouldnt mock it if the claims weren't so silly. Or do you agree that a woman finding the face of the virgin mary in a tortilla is also a miracle?
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
We wouldnt mock it if the claims weren't so silly. Or do you agree that a woman finding the face of the virgin mary in a tortilla is also a miracle?
Not to mention Jesus on a dog's hmhm...:hiding:
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 07:06 PM
We wouldnt mock it if the claims weren't so silly. Or do you agree that a woman finding the face of the virgin mary in a tortilla is also a miracle?
What is so silly?

"Day (yawm)" is repeated 365 times in singular form, while its plural and dual forms "days (ayyam and yawmayn)" together are repeated 30 times. The number of repetitions of the word "month" (shahar) is 12.
The word day (yawm) is repeated 365 times in singular form. There are 365.25days in the solar calendar. Coincidence or heavenly sign?

The word days (ayyam and yawmayn) are repeated 30 times. There are 29 or 30 days in every Lunar month. The lunar calendar has 360 days, divided in 12 months equals 30 days each. If 12 solar months were to be divided equally in days the number would be rounded to 30. Coincidence or heavenly sign?

The word month (shahar) is repeated 12 times. There are 12 months in both lunar and solar calendars. Coincidence or heavenly sign?

The number of times the words "man" and "woman" are repeated in the Qur'an, 23, is at the same time that of the chromosomes from the egg and sperm in the formation of the human embryo. The total number of human chromosomes is 46; 23 each from the mother and father.
46 chromosomes, 23 from father and 23 from mother, word man is mentioned 23 times and word woman is mentioned 23 times in Holy Quran. Coincidence or heavenly sign?

This is just the tip of the iceberg my friend. The more times the skeptics and disbelievers continue to say "coincidence, coincidence," the less likely the probability is that it is a coincidence and not a heavenly sign. So when all the multitude of signs in the Holy Quran are taken as a collective we are compelled to believe this is a book that was not authored by an illiterate seventh century Arabian shephard (peace and blessings upon him) but rather it is a supernatural book.

Let me say though that for the atheists and agnostics, God is not going to make His Signs so blatant that you have no excuse not to believe. Remember this point. God does send down signs and miracles, but those who have pure hearts and are righteous, they will be inclined to believe in such miracles. So God sends down such signs to make a sifting process. There will always be a shred of doubt in the perverse hearts which they will use as justification to continue living in a state of disbelief so that they dont have to sacrifice their hedonistic lifestyle and become subject to Allah.

Please reflect on this beautiful and very wise verse of the Holy Quran. The skeptics of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him) asked that if he is a true prophet of God why doesnt an Angel come down and accompany him for everyone to see and so no doubt or excuse will be left. To this objection Almighty Allah revealed an answer:

They say: "Why is not an angel sent down to him?" If we did send down an angel, the matter would be settled at once, and no respite would be granted them.
(Al Anam 6:8)

So this is why Allah does not send down such a blatant proof that not even the spiritually blind will have no excuse to reject it. Here is another illustration of this:

Our Holy Prophet (peace and blessings upon him) was given revelation about the signs that will point to the coming of the Day of Judgment. One of these signs is that the sun will rise from the west (instead of the east as usual). But when this happens, all the non-Muslims on Earth will know Islam is the true religion and will accept it. But Allah will reject their acceptance of Islam at this late juncture:

Are they waiting to see if the angels come to them, or thy Lord (Himself), or certain of the signs of thy Lord! the day that certain of the signs of thy Lord do come, no good will it do to a soul to believe in them then if it believed not before nor earned righteousness through its faith
(Al Anam 6:158)
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Isambard
12-13-2007, 07:08 PM
So you will accept the "mathmatical miracles" of other religious texts too right?
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 07:13 PM
So you will accept the "mathmatical miracles" of other religious texts too right?
If you can show them to me, and show that they are superior to those which have been proven from the Holy Quran, what choice will I have to accept or reject them?
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
in the Quran it says man and woman are equal - man is mentioned 24 times in the Quran and so is woman mentioned 24 times.

The number of times the words "man" and "woman" are repeated in the Qur'an, 23, is at the same time that of the chromosomes from the egg and sperm in the formation of the human embryo. The total number of human chromosomes is 46; 23 each from the mother and father.
format_quote Originally Posted by yusuf estes
Another area to avoid is the misconception about the "miracle of numbers" in the Quran. The stories are many and all of them are false. There is no miracle of "19" in the Quran; this not the occurance of the word "day" and "night" 365 times (the Muslim calendar is 354 days anyway); the words "angel" and "devil" do not occur the same number of times; and all of the mathematical equasions mentioned about the earth and the water are worthless to someone who is trying to understand about Allah and Islam. So please stop this propaganda and DO NOT FORWARD these messages to everyone on your list.
...
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 07:20 PM
There is no miracle of "19" in the Quran
I agree, this so called 19 miracle of the Holy Quran was basically a fraud started by one Rashad Khalifa who in order to to prove this so called miracle deleted two verses from the Holy Quran. His ego also got bloated due to this dellusion of his and started claiming to be a Messenger of God. As a result of such claim he died mysteriously a disgraceful death.
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
If you can show them to me, and show that they are superior to those which have been proven from the Holy Quran, what choice will I have to accept or reject them?
Which of the miracles of the Quran have actually been proven? I hear the 19 is false, the 23 is dubious, so is the 365...
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 07:33 PM
Which of the miracles of the Quran have actually been proven? I hear the 19 is false, the 23 is dubious, so is the 365...
I never mentioned the 19 or 23. As for 365, only the word yawm in single form, and not in plural form as ayyam or yawmayn (two days). There are some fallacies, but I did not quote those.

http://www.harunyahya.com/books/fait...quran4.php#108
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 07:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
I never mentioned the 19 or 23. As for 365, only the word yawm in single form, and not in plural form as ayyam or yawmayn (two days). There are some fallacies, but I did not quote those.
Dr. Fahd al-Roomi said something similar about the selective way in which Dr ‘Abd al-Razzaaq Nawfal chose words in order to reach this numerical balance, such as when he said: The word yawm (day) is mentioned 365 times in the Qur’aan, the number of days in a year. In order to prove this he counted the words “al-yawm” and “yawman” but he ignored words such as “yawmukum” (your day) and “yawmuhum” (their day) and yawma’idhin (on that day), because if he had done that, he would have got a different number.
Reckoning time by the moon and the new moons was well known to the Prophets and their peoples, and reckoning time by the sun was only known to the ignorant followers of false religions, but unfortunately many Muslims follow them nowadays.
These connections are based on the solar calendar, which is a calendar that was inherited from idolatrous nations, and which was of no significance to the Prophets (blessing and peace be upon them). Rather the calendar that counts in sharee’ah is the calendar that is based on the moon and new moons, which is more precise.
...
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 07:44 PM
Dr. Fahd al-Roomi said something similar about the selective way in which Dr ‘Abd al-Razzaaq Nawfal chose words in order to reach this numerical balance, such as when he said: The word yawm (day) is mentioned 365 times in the Qur’aan, the number of days in a year. In order to prove this he counted the words “al-yawm” and “yawman” but he ignored words such as “yawmukum” (your day) and “yawmuhum” (their day) and yawma’idhin (on that day), because if he had done that, he would have got a different number.
If he counted the word yawmukum and yawmuhum and other variations than that does not mean simply day anymore. Only the word day (yawm) was counted, and that is more logical.

Reckoning time by the moon and the new moons was well known to the Prophets and their peoples, and reckoning time by the sun was only known to the ignorant followers of false religions, but unfortunately many Muslims follow them nowadays.
Irrelevant

These connections are based on the solar calendar, which is a calendar that was inherited from idolatrous nations, and which was of no significance to the Prophets (blessing and peace be upon them). Rather the calendar that counts in sharee’ah is the calendar that is based on the moon and new moons, which is more precise.
Calculations are based on solar calendar, so this is a miracle most relevant to those who follow it.
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Trumble
12-13-2007, 07:51 PM
Yahya has excelled himself this time! :D It's a good thing for Islam that real intellectuals like Yusuf Estes are around as well.

Surely you can see that if you (using a computer, say, for speed) counted the number of times each word that occurs in the Qur'an occurs, and then match up all those that occur the same number of times you are bound to end up with several combos with such tenous links as 'disaster' and 'thanks', 'benefit and corrupt', 'mind' and 'light' (?) and so on. Not just in the Qur'an but in any book of similar length you care to name. I don't mean to be unkind, but I really find it hard to believe anybody who gave it a moment's thought could be taken in by such nonsense.
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 07:54 PM
Not just in the Qur'an but in any book of similar length you care to name
Since you are a Buddhist and this is your contention, than I humbly ask you to provide me with some mathematic miracles from your Tripitaka. Unless you can do this, you should keep quiet otherwise you will be humiliated.
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
If he counted the word yawmukum and yawmuhum and other variations than that does not mean simply day anymore. Only the word day (yawm) was counted, and that is more logical.
The raticle says the word yawman was also counted. What does it mean?
And anyway, it isn't more logical. "His day" is still a single day. Arabic apparently doesn't have seperate words for possesive pronouns which doesn't change the singleness of "his day".
Anyway, I agree with Trumble. Such coincidences are bound to be found in all lenghty books.
Irrelevant
Calculations are based on solar calendar, so this is a miracle most relevant to those who follow it.
Why is it irrelevant? Muslims are ussually strongly opposed to connecting pagan stuf with Islam. I guess, when it comes to miracles, everything is allowed, even music (which can be found in all miracle videos).
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 08:14 PM
The raticle says the word yawman was also countrd. What does it mean?
Yawman also means day, the "an" is basically a technical rule in Arabic grammar which means another word will proceed and the two words Yawm and the other word are connected. For example:

Then guard yourselves against a Day when one soul shall not avail another
(Al Baqarah 2:123)

The Arabic says yawman la which means "a day not", and it goes on to say it will be a day not that souls will avail eachother. But this is a technical thing, the important thing to remember is yawm means day, whether it appears as yawm or yawman. Similarly the word sirat means path in Arabic, and in the First Chapter of Holy Quran it appears as siratan, because it is connected with another word mustaqeem.

And anyway, it isn't moe logical. His day is still a single day. Arabic apparently doesn't have seperate words for possesive pronouns.
Thats exactly the point. The word yawmuhum is one word and it doesnt mean "day". In this research, only the word day was counted. Why can't you understand this single point. If yawmukum and yawmuhum were counted, people would raise an ever greater clamour and say this is dishonest because yawmukum doesnt mean day in the strict sense, etc.

I agree with Trumble. Such coincidences are bound to be found in lenghty books.
This is why I gave a personal challenge to Trumble, because he is an open buddhist, to show me such numerical miracles in his holy book (the tripitaka) as well. That is fair in my opinion.
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
Yawman also means day, the "an" is basically a technical rule in Arabic grammar which means another word will proceed and the two words Yawm and the other word are connected. For example:

Then guard yourselves against a Day when one soul shall not avail another
(Al Baqarah 2:123)

The Arabic says yawman la which means "a day not", and it goes on to say it will be a day not that souls will avail eachother. But this is a technical thing, the important thing to remember is yawm means day, whether it appears as yawm or yawman. Similarly the word sirat means path in Arabic, and in the First Chapter of Holy Quran it appears as siratan, because it is connected with another word mustaqeem.



Thats exactly the point. The word yawmuhum is one word and it doesnt mean "day". In this research, only the word day was counted. Why can't you understand this single point. If yawmukum and yawmuhum were counted, people would raise an ever greater clamour and say this is dishonest because yawmukum doesnt mean day in the strict sense, etc.



This is why I gave a personal challenge to Trumble, because he is an open buddhist, to show me such numerical miracles in his holy book (the tripitaka) as well. That is fair in my opinion.
But then again yawman doesn't mean yamn in a strict sense, beacuse it is connected with another word...possesive pronouns, articles etc are also conected with the word day. They just happen to be a part of one word.
That's my opinion about it.
And anyway, I don't know if I can trust any of so called miracles of the quran, since so many have been proven false and deceitful.
And you didn't answer my last question.

Here's an example from the Bible:

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Trumble
12-13-2007, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
Since you are a Buddhist and this is your contention, than I humbly ask you to provide me with some mathematic miracles from your Tripitaka. Unless you can do this, you should keep quiet otherwise you will be humiliated.
To my knowledge it doesn't contain any mathematical 'miracles' (real ones, that is), although I can't say I've ever felt the urge to look. Doing so would be pretty pointless as it wasn't even written down for several hundred years after it was first codified following the Buddha's death and Pali is not even the language the Buddha and his contemporary followers would have spoken although, like Sanskrit, it is very closely related. While much of the vocabulary of Pali and Sanskrit is common, not all of it is, and spellings differ; hence ditto presumably between Pali and the Prakrit dialect spoken by Gautama. Hence a word count would be futile, although it would produce the results I suggested in any of those languages (or English, or Chinese, or classical Tibetan come to that).

Why would there be 'miracles' (as opposed to coincidences of the sort I described) of any sort? It has no pretentions to divine authorship or inspiration. The Tipitaka is combination of rules for the monastic life, and the Buddha's teachings about suffering, how it is caused and how it can be ended. No silly party tricks are needed for people to take it seriously and, with the greatest respect, no silly party tricks are needed for people to take the Qur'an seriously either.
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snakelegs
12-13-2007, 08:34 PM
question for muslims:
you believe the qur'an is the word of god. isn't that sufficient? why do you need stuff like "mathematical miracles"??? do they make the book any more true?
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 08:41 PM
But then again yawman doesn't mean yamn in a strict sense, beacuse it is connected with another word...possesive pronouns, articles etc are also conected with the word day. They just happen to be a part of one word.
Perhaps I need to illustrate this point to you in a different way:

يَوْمِ

Yawmi, the "i" at the end of Yawm means another word will follow that is CONNECTED IN SUBJECT, not that they are one word. For example Yawmi addeen (Day of Judgment), these are two separate words, but because they are connected in subject, the meem in Yawm has a different grammatical point. But it is still strictly means DAY.

يَوْماً

This is Yawman, as you can see it has the exact same root letters YA - WAW - MEEM but the last letter meem has a different grammatical point. It still strictly means day, the meaning of the word is not altered in the least. The grammatical point on Meem changes to indicate the next word following in the sentence is connected by SUBJECT

So why is Yawmukum or Yawmuhum any different you ask?

يَوْمُكُمُ

As you can see, the word Yawmukum has extra letters (kaf and meem) added to it, it is ONE WORD. And as one word it has a meaning, and that meaning IS NOT DAY!!!! The meaning is YOUR DAY. Whereas Yawmi and Yawman both mean DAY and nothing but DAY!!!

Hope you understand now. Even a 4 year old child should understand this.



I reject this so called miracle for several reasons:

1) It is an English translation, not the original Bible text. English translations can vary in their particular word choice.

2) Why the letters are arranged in rows of 33?

3) It is nothing compared to the numerical miracles of the Holy Quran.
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Doing so would be pretty pointless as it wasn't even written down for several hundred years after it was first codified following the Buddha's death and Pali is not even the language the Buddha and his contemporary followers would have spoken although, like Sanskrit, it is very closely related. While much of the vocabulary of Pali and Sanskrit is common, not all of it is, and spellings differ; hence ditto presumably between Pali and the Prakrit dialect spoken by Gautama. Hence a word count would be futile, although it would produce the results I suggested in any of those languages (or English, or Chinese, or classical Tibetan come to that).

Why would there be 'miracles' (as opposed to coincidences of the sort I described) of any sort? It has no pretentions to divine authorship or inspiration. The Tipitaka is combination of rules for the monastic life, and the Buddha's teachings about suffering, how it is caused and how it can be ended. No silly party tricks are needed for people to take it seriously and, with the greatest respect, no silly party tricks are needed for people to take the Qur'an seriously either.
You see this is my point. We believe the Holy Quran has divine authorship, and we have presented multitude of miracles (not just numerical by all means) to prove it. Still you reject out of blind arrogance and pride. No religious scripture on the face of the earth, whether it is Bible, Vedas, Talmud, Book of Mormon, Tao Te Ching, Tripitaka, etc., can compare to the Holy Quran. The Holy Quran is superior to all these other scriptures in every meaningful regard. With regard to its teachings, its prophecies, its numerical miracles, its salient features. No other book on face of the Earth can compare.

The fact that Buddhists do not possess nor can prove Tripitaka represents accurately the teachings of Buddha and Christians similarly can never prove the New Testament represent the teachings of Jesus. Only we Muslims can say without a shadow of doubt the Holy Quran is the Word of Allah revealed to the Seal of Prophets Muhammad (peace and blessings upon him).

question for muslims:
you believe the qur'an is the word of god. isn't that sufficient? why do you need stuff like "mathematical miracles"??? do they make the book any more true?
I would say that even without any mathematic miracles, our belief in the divine authorship of Holy Quran is a firm and unbreakable. They are just "icing on the cake" in my opinion. But our belief in Islam and the Holy Quran is not a blind faith based on tradition or culture. Our belief in Holy Quran must be sincere and strong, so Allah has shown us many signs and miracles in His Word and we are compelled by reason to belief in its truthfulness.
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 08:55 PM
I know what you're trying to say. I just disagreee with your reasoning and so do some muslims.
Not only "his day" or "by that day" were omitted. Conjugated ones, such as "of a day", were also omitted.
Most Bible codes are found in the Hebrew Bible. In this particular example the KJV was used. It has been translated almost 400 years ago so this "miracle" can't have been produced deliberately. Why the rows of 33? I don't know, perhaps for a similar reason muslims use for days...in order to get the right numbers.
What's so speacial about the numerical "miracles" of the Quran? A couple of word repetitions, most of which are deliberate.
The rest are just coincidental combinations in a lenghty book, which can apparently also be found in the bible.
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 09:17 PM
All religions have got means of justifying themselves. Some of them (including Islam) cheat from time to time. They provide false information, change their scriptures, make up scientists...
Most believers "know" their religion is the one and the only.
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 09:17 PM
The rest are just coincidental combinations in a lenghty book, which can apparently also be found in the bible.
So bring us one my friend. Dont bring me crossword puzzles either.
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
So bring us one my friend. Dont bring me crossword puzzles either.
I think most Bible codes are crossword puzzles. If you don't like crosswords, that's your problem.:coolious:

Here's an interesting one:



SYDNEY, Australia (CNN) -- In a rare public exchange highlighting the delicacy of political diplomacy, President Bush told South Korean President Roh Moo-hyun a formal end to the Korean War begins when North Korea halts its secretive nuclear weapons program.
The Bush administration did contribute to an end of the north korean nuclear weapons program.

OMG:eek::eek::eek::offended:
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truemuslim
12-13-2007, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
So bring us one my friend. Dont bring me crossword puzzles either.

they dont got any... because the bible was written by a human,...:coolious:
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 09:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by truemuslim
they dont got any... because the bible was written by a human,...:coolious:
IMHO so was the Quran. And the word repetitions were put in deliberately.
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truemuslim
12-13-2007, 09:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
IMHO so was the Quran. And the word repetitions were put in deliberately.

and thats where ur wrong. the quraan was written by ALLAH...who is THE GOD... yep...and at least the quraan isnt a bunch of crossword puzzles that come in the newspaper. :offended::D
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Whatsthepoint
12-13-2007, 09:41 PM
Truemuslim, do you believe that some parts of the bible (ie those in accordance to the Quran) are a revelation from God?
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truemuslim
12-13-2007, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Truemuslim, do you believe that some parts of the bible (ie those in accordance to the Quran) are a revelation from God?
SOME parts in the Bible WERE real...but the rest...eh
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truemuslim
12-13-2007, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Truemuslim, do you believe that some parts of the bible (ie those in accordance to the Quran) are a revelation from God?
And all of the quraan was real
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 09:48 PM
I want all Muslims to notice something what this person "Whatsthepoint" is saying:

IMHO so was the Quran. And the word repetitions were put in deliberately.
This guy is not dismissing the numerical miracles, he is only saying that it was all pre-planned when the Holy Quran was being written!!!

How absurd is that? Doesn't even know how the Holy Quran was revealed. Thinks the numerical miracles were pre-planned, and a conspiracy to make them public 1400 years later!

I think most Bible codes are crossword puzzles. If you don't like crosswords, that's your problem
No its your problem. Because what is the criteria for determining how many letters for each row? Please answer this question, and maybe I'll consider your so called "bible code".
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truemuslim
12-13-2007, 10:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
I want all Muslims to notice something what this person "Whatsthepoint" is saying:



This guy is not dismissing the numerical miracles, he is only saying that it was all pre-planned when the Holy Quran was being written!!!

How absurd is that? Doesn't even know how the Holy Quran was revealed. Thinks the numerical miracles were pre-planned, and a conspiracy to make them public 1400 years later!



yes i noticed that.lol...:D



No its your problem. Because what is the criteria for determining how many letters for each row? Please answer this question, and maybe I'll consider your so called "bible code".

"bible code" is like one of those things that they have on websites, that its like a mystery game.lol
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Trumble
12-13-2007, 10:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
You see this is my point. We believe the Holy Quran has divine authorship, and we have presented multitude of miracles (not just numerical by all means) to prove it. Still you reject out of blind arrogance and pride.
I know you believe that, you wouldn't be a muslim if you didn't. I, however, do not believe it. Not because of "blind arrogance and pride", but because I have seen nothing whatsoever that provides convincing evidence that the Qur'an is of anything other than human authorship. Of the evidence I have seen, I find the actual contents of the Qur'an (by which I mean what it actually says, not ludicrous attempts to re-interpret it as scientific or historical 'miracles') far more impressive than Yayha's nonsense. As I do Woodrow's comments about the actual style of the Arabic, incidently. But the idea that an omnipotent God, even if there was one, would play such silly word or mathematical games (why?!!) is not 'icing on the cake' for anything, it is utterly absurd. Word games are for bored commuters on trains, not God.

The Holy Quran is superior to all these other scriptures in every meaningful regard. With regard to its teachings, its prophecies, its numerical miracles, its salient features. No other book on face of the Earth can compare.
Again, what else would you think as a muslim?

The fact that Buddhists do not possess nor can prove Tripitaka represents accurately the teachings of Buddha
At the risk of straying off topic, Buddhists have had no need to 'prove' it, they experience it. From the time of the Buddha himself, those teachings have been a case of 'suck it and see'; if Buddhism makes to sense you then go with it and follow those teachings. If they don't make sense, then move on. Buddhism is a religion of self-effort and both the Buddha and those who followed him taught only those who wished to be taught. There is no obligation, no divine command.

Only we Muslims can say without a shadow of doubt the Holy Quran is the Word of Allah revealed to the Seal of Prophets Muhammad
Again, as a muslim, you believe that. In objective terms, though, it's nonsense.. of course there is 'doubt'. You cannot 'prove' that there even is a God let alone that he revealed anything to anybody. If there really were such proof, everyone on the planet would become a muslim, including me. But there isn't; you just see what you want to see. To those who believe already it convinces, to most of those who don't, it doesn't. And I wouldn't claim for a minute that Christians, Jews, or even Buddhists are any different.. but if we are all to get along it is at least important to be honest and recognise that fact. None of them reject Islam through 'arrogance and pride' any more than you reject Buddhism or Daoism through 'arrogance and pride'.
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Talha777
12-13-2007, 11:05 PM
I know you believe that, you wouldn't be a muslim if you didn't. I, however, do not believe it. Not because of "blind arrogance and pride", but because I have seen nothing whatsoever that provides convincing evidence that the Qur'an is of anything other than human authorship. Of the evidence I have seen, I find the actual contents of the Qur'an (by which I mean what it actually says, not ludicrous attempts to re-interpret it as scientific or historical 'miracles') far more impressive than Yayha's nonsense. As I do Woodrow's comments about the actual style of the Arabic, incidently. But the idea that an omnipotent God, even if there was one, would play such silly word or mathematical games (why?!!) is not 'icing on the cake' for anything, it is utterly absurd. Word games are for bored commuters on trains, not God.
My friend talk is cheap. Actually showing me how these numerical miracles are nonsense, that is time and effort better spent in my opinion. Instead of bringing crossword puzzles to try to prove that any book contains such numerical miracles, I invite you and anyone else to give me some satisfactory numerical miracles from any book asides from Holy Quran. Fact of the matter is you never will be able to, so don't even bother.

At the risk of straying off topic, Buddhists have had no need to 'prove' it, they experience it. From the time of the Buddha himself, those teachings have been a case of 'suck it and see'; if Buddhism makes to sense you then go with it and follow those teachings. If they don't make sense, then move on. Buddhism is a religion of self-effort and both the Buddha and those who followed him taught only those who wished to be taught. There is no obligation, no divine command.
Experience what exactly? Exercising is always good for the soul, it doesnt mean Buddhism is such an awesome religion and we should leave Islam to experience the pleasures of yoga. This is problem with you buddhists, you just give a religious coloring to school of yoga/meditation. It is not a real religion. Even a Muslim can stay true to his religion and practice meditation. But the teachings of your scripture, compare that with Islamic teachings of Holy Quran, there is no comparison im afraid.
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ranma1/2
12-13-2007, 11:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Yahya has excelled himself this time! :D It's a good thing for Islam that real intellectuals like Yusuf Estes are around as well.

Surely you can see that if you (using a computer, say, for speed) counted the number of times each word that occurs in the Qur'an occurs, and then match up all those that occur the same number of times you are bound to end up with several combos with such tenous links as 'disaster' and 'thanks', 'benefit and corrupt', 'mind' and 'light' (?) and so on. Not just in the Qur'an but in any book of similar length you care to name. I don't mean to be unkind, but I really find it hard to believe anybody who gave it a moment's thought could be taken in by such nonsense.
thats pretty much my thought. im just curious exactly where these words are. Does anyone have a lists. As you said, it seems that they likely added words together and chose from those till they got what they wanted.
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Trumble
12-14-2007, 12:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
My friend talk is cheap. Actually showing me how these numerical miracles are nonsense, that is time and effort better spent in my opinion. Instead of bringing crossword puzzles to try to prove that any book contains such numerical miracles, I invite you and anyone else to give me some satisfactory numerical miracles from any book asides from Holy Quran. Fact of the matter is you never will be able to, so don't even bother.
Not in mine. To me it seems blindingly obvious that such an analysis will produce such results; indeed I'm surprised Yahya couldn't come up with anything better than he actually did. I certainly have no intention spending weeks counting words and looking for pretty pairs and sadly my computer skills are too limited to write a program to do it. If it isn't obvious to you, however, so be it, I'll leave you to your 'miracles'.

This is problem with you buddhists, you just give a religious coloring to school of yoga/meditation. It is not a real religion.
It is unwise to declare 'problems' in religions about which you know next to nothing. Meditation and associated activities are part of Buddhism (one eighth of the eightfold path to end suffering), but only part.. just as important is ethical conduct which is almost identical to that in theistic religions, do not kill, do not steal, do not lie, do not have improper sexual relations and so forth. More important than either is one word, 'Compassion'.

Even a Muslim can stay true to his religion and practice meditation. But the teachings of your scripture, compare that with Islamic teachings of Holy Quran, there is no comparison im afraid.
Islam and (particularly) Christianity both have significant contemplative traditions, even if mainstream Islam has effectively abandoned it. As with Buddhism, they form part of those religions, not all of them. You are in no position to compare scriptures as you have no idea what Buddhist ones contain. The Buddhist approach is to accept the universe as it really is, and learn to deal with it. The theistic approach is to ignore that reality, create an imaginary being in an attempt to convince that there really is some point to it all, and an imaginary after-life to counter the universal fear of death and provide a comforting delusion that however bad things might be in the real world they will be perfect when you die. If you follow all the rules.. but whose rules? In my opinion, of course, 'arrogant and proud' as I am. The good news is that if I am wrong I'll no doubt suffer a suitable dose of hellfire in which to regret it, while if you are wrong you'll never know... :smile:
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barney
12-14-2007, 01:56 AM
I found this quite intersesting, so I ran a few through the old search engine on my online koran.

The Shaiten/angels was wrong, as was "days", as was seventh heaven, Man was 304 Woman was 19...and i'm stopping right there, cos i dunno who did this miracle checking, but theyre miles and miles out!
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ranma1/2
12-14-2007, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
I found this quite intersesting, so I ran a few through the old search engine on my online koran.

The Shaiten/angels was wrong, as was "days", as was seventh heaven, Man was 304 Woman was 19...and i'm stopping right there, cos i dunno who did this miracle checking, but theyre miles and miles out!
got a link to that search engine?
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barney
12-14-2007, 02:59 AM
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html

There ya go. Lemme know if you find that any of the scholars numbers actually match up.
I CBA TBH :D
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thirdwatch512
12-14-2007, 06:50 AM
ok i have checked the arabic for some.

rajul(man) and nisa(women) does indeed both equal 24. However, how is that a miracle? Is "child" and "adult" mentioned the same amount, or "man" and "animals", etc? If not, then why just this?

Also, why is "rejal"(men) and "imraat"(women) not equal the same? Just does not make any sense.

Now I see drama about the word "day." So, I did a lonng, tiring search just for you guys!

ok, "yawn" only is mentioned 133 times.

All in all, "day" is used exactly 446 times. if you exclude "idhin" and "kumu" and such, then you can get 365.

However, why exclude them? Why not also exclude words with beginnings, like..

alyawmi
bialyami
alyawmu
alyama
waakyawma
wabialyama

etc....

Plus, a year in islam is 354, not 365. so why mention 365 anyways?

as for month.. yes, it came out as 12.

as for days.. It came out at 27, and you have to add 3 duals to make it equal 30.

yawm=day
38 Alyawma 2:249 5:3 5:3 5:5 6:93 8:48 11:43 12:54 12:92 16:27 16:63 17:14 19:26 19:38 20:64 20:126 23:65 23:111 25:14 29:36 36:55 36:59 36:64 36:65 37:26 40:16 40:17 40:17 40:29 43:39 43:68 45:28 45:34 50:22 57:12 66:7 68:24 69:35
1 Alyawmi 76:11
2 Alyawmu 70:44 78:39
2 biAlyawmi 4:38 9:29
5 biyawmi 40:27 70:26 74:46 75:1 83:11
8 faAlyawma 7:51 10:92 34:42 36:54 45:35 46:20 57:15 83:34
4 fayawmayidHiN 30:57 55:39 69:15 89:25
4 liyawmi 21:47 38:53 64:9 77:13
4 liyawmiN 3:9 3:25 14:42 83:5
2 waAlyawma 33:21 60:6
21 waAlyawmi 2:62 2:126 2:177 2:228 2:232 2:264 3:114 4:39 4:59 4:136 4:162 5:69 9:18 9:19 9:44 9:45 9:99 24:2 58:22 65:2 85:2
1 wabiAlyawmi 2:8
44 wayawma 2:85 4:159 6:22 6:73 6:128 7:163 9:25 10:28 10:45 11:60 11:99 16:80 16:84 16:89 18:47 18:52 19:15 19:15 19:33 19:33 24:64 25:17 25:25 25:27 27:83 27:87 28:41 28:42 28:62 28:65 28:74 30:12 30:14 30:55 34:40 35:14 39:60 40:46 40:51 41:19 41:47 45:27 46:20 46:34
1 wayawmayidHiN 30:4
2 yawmAaN 2:48 2:123
133 yawma 2:113 2:174 2:212 3:30 3:77 3:106 3:155 3:161 3:166 3:180 3:185 3:194 4:109 4:141 5:109 6:73 6:141 6:158 7:32 7:53 7:163 7:172 8:41 8:41 9:3 9:35 9:36 10:60 10:93 11:8 11:98 11:105 14:41 14:44 14:48 16:25 16:27 16:80 16:92 16:111 16:124 17:13 17:52 17:71 17:97 18:105 19:15 19:33 19:38 19:39 19:85 19:95 20:100 20:101 20:102 20:124 21:104 22:2 22:9 22:17 22:69 23:16 24:24 25:22 25:69 26:82 26:87 26:88 28:61 29:13 29:25 29:55 32:25 32:29 33:44 33:66 38:26 39:15 39:24 39:31 39:47 39:67 40:15 40:16 40:18 40:32 40:33 40:52 41:40 42:7 42:45 44:10 44:16 44:40 44:41 45:17 46:35 50:30 50:41 50:42 50:44 51:13 52:9 52:13 52:46 54:6 54:48 56:56 57:12 57:13 58:6 58:7 58:18 60:3 64:9 66:8 68:42 70:8 70:43 73:14 78:17 78:18 78:38 78:40 79:6 79:35 79:46 80:34 82:15 82:19 83:6 86:9 101:4
14 yawmaNA 2:259 2:281 18:19 20:104 22:47 23:113 24:37 25:26 31:33 40:49 73:17 76:7 76:10 76:27
3 yawmahumu 43:83 52:45 70:42
62 yawmayidHiN 3:167 4:42 6:16 7:8 8:16 14:49 16:87 18:99 18:100 20:102 20:108 20:109 22:56 23:101 24:25 25:22 25:24 25:26 27:89 28:66 30:14 30:43 37:33 40:9 42:47 43:67 45:27 52:11 69:16 69:17 69:18 74:9 75:10 75:12 75:13 75:22 75:24 75:30 77:15 77:19 77:24 77:34 77:37 77:40 77:45 77:47 77:49 79:8 80:37 80:38 80:40 82:19 83:10 83:15 88:2 88:8 89:23 89:23 99:4 99:6 100:11 102:8
3 yawmayni 2:203 41:9 41:12
31 yawmi 1:4 3:55 4:87 5:14 5:36 5:64 6:12 7:14 7:167 9:77 15:35 15:36 15:38 17:58 17:62 23:100 26:189 28:71 28:72 30:56 37:144 38:16 38:78 38:79 38:81 40:30 45:26 46:5 54:19 62:9 68:39
28 yawmiN 2:259 6:15 7:59 9:108 10:15 11:3 11:26 11:84 14:18 18:19 19:37 22:55 23:113 26:38 26:135 26:155 26:156 26:189 32:5 34:30 39:13 43:65 46:21 55:29 56:50 70:4 77:12 90:14
1 yawmihim 7:51
1 yawmihimu 51:60
4 yawmikum 6:130 32:14 39:71 45:34
2 yawmiyidHiN 11:66 70:11
16 yawmu 5:119 20:59 30:56 37:20 37:21 50:20 50:34 50:42 51:12 64:9 75:6 77:14 77:35 77:38 82:17 82:18
9 yawmuN 2:254 11:77 11:103 11:103 14:31 30:43 42:47 54:8 74:9
1 yawmukumu 21:103
1 ywmayidHiN 77:28

449 - (62 + 4 + 2 + 1 + 1) idhin - (4 + 3 + 1 + 1 + 1) - 3 duals - = 365

regular expression /(\S*Aa?y2aA?m\S*)/g ayyam=days
1 Aay2aAmAaN 2:80
1 Aay2aAma 45:14
2 Aay2aAmaNA 2:184 3:24
1 Aay2aAmi 10:102
18 Aay2aAmiN 2:184 2:185 2:196 2:203 3:41 5:89 7:54 10:3 11:7 11:65 22:28 25:59 32:4 41:10 41:16 50:38 57:4 69:7
1 AlAay2aAmi 69:24
1 AlAy2aAmu 3:140
1 biAay2aAmi 14:5
1 waAay2aAmaNA 34:18
= 27 + 3 duals = 30

regular expression /(\S*sch2?ahr\S*)/g schahr = month
2 Alsch2ahra 2:185 5:2
1 Alsch2ahri 2:217
1 Alsch2ahru 2:194
1 biAlsch2ahri 2:194
2 schahraNA 9:36 46:15
2 schahrayni 4:92 58:4
1 schahriN 97:3
1 schahru 2:185
2 schahruN 34:12 34:12
1 waAlsch2ahra 5:97
14 - 2 duals = 12

regular expression /(\S*r2?ajul\S*)/g rajul = man
1 farajuluN 2:282
1 l2irajuliN 39:29
1 lirajuliN 33:4
1 r2ajulaNA 39:29
2 r2ajulayni 16:76 18:32
3 rajulAaN 6:9 7:155 17:47
1 rajulAani 5:23
3 rajulaNA 18:37 25:8 40:28
2 rajulayni 2:282 28:15
5 rajuliN 7:63 7:69 10:2 34:7 43:31
8 rajuluN 4:12 11:78 23:25 23:38 28:20 34:43 36:20 40:28
1 warajulaNA 39:29
29 - 5 duals = 24

(\S*Ai?mraAa?t\S*)/g imraat (?) = woman
2 AimraAat+a 66:10 66:11
1 AmraAat+aN 27:23
3 AmraAat+u 3:35 12:30 12:51
2 AmraAat+uN 4:12 4:128
4 AmraAatahu 7:83 15:60 27:57 29:32
2 AmraAataka 11:81 29:33
2 AmraAatiy 19:5 19:8
1 AmraAatu 28:9
1 AmraAatuhu 51:29
1 AmraAtayni 28:23
1 lAimraAatihi 12:21
1 waAimraAat+a 66:10
1 waAmraAat+aN 33:50
1 waAmraAataAni 2:282
1 waAmraAatiy 3:40
2 waAmraAatuhu 11:71 111:4
26 - 2 duals =24

i fail to understand how this is miraculous though. it could have very easily been put in there. muhammad claimed to be a prophet for TWENTY THREE years. he had plenty of time. if not, then uthman.. certainly, when he compiled the qu'ran he could have changed things here and there. what is so amazing about this?

you want to see a coincidence? go to the first two books of the bible in hebrew. now search the first letter and skip every 50. you will find the letters that say TORAH in Hebrew. You can do that at the beginning AND end of the first two books.

Then go to Leviticus.. Skip every 7, and you get YHWH.

Then, go to the last two, and you can look at the beginning AND end.. It onces again says "TORAH" but this time backwards.

Hence, it looks like this..

Torah>>>Yahweh<<<Torah

Hence, it all leads to Yahweh.

The chances of that happening are extremely low. I mean very very very low. You find me ONE other book in history that does such and I will give you a thousand bucks.

If does not mean it is miraculous. It just means that life is full of such coincidences. Certainly, yusuf estes and others are not stupid when they say it is no miracle!
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ranma1/2
12-14-2007, 07:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html

There ya go. Lemme know if you find that any of the scholars numbers actually match up.
I CBA TBH :D
you dont have one for the original quran.
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rozeena
12-14-2007, 08:56 AM
great post bro!:thumbs_up
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Trumble
12-14-2007, 10:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
i fail to understand how this is miraculous though. it could have very easily been put in there. muhammad claimed to be a prophet for TWENTY THREE years. he had plenty of time. if not, then uthman.. certainly, when he compiled the qu'ran he could have changed things here and there. what is so amazing about this?
I don't think it's any more likely Muhammed or Uthman deliberately put them there than God did. I'm sure they both had far better things to do with their time. That, and the fact that had that been the case the 'miracles' would have been drawn to people's attention long before now.

Pure coincidence, nothing more, even if some of the numbers do match up as this particular 'scholar' claims.
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thirdwatch512
12-14-2007, 02:31 PM
i tend to agree that it is nothing more then coincidence. however, it could have been put in there if one wanted it!
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Whatsthepoint
12-14-2007, 10:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
rajul(man) and nisa(women) does indeed both equal 24.!
There goes the chromosomes miracle..
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Whatsthepoint
12-14-2007, 10:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
i tend to agree that it is nothing more then coincidence. however, it could have been put in there if one wanted it!
I think some are deliebrate, namely the equal occurences of connected words, such as haven and hell, man and woman..
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Resigned
12-15-2007, 02:13 AM
We interrupt our regularly scheduled Koranic Miracle thread for a message from one of our sponsors--

I have a need to make what I think is a frighteningly obvious point: since when does anyone ascribe the term “miraculous” to random and/or coincidental number sequences in a book?

When I listen to how people (“miracle’ists”, et al) describe their gods, I am always taken by two things: How really weak they make their gods while trying to make them omnipotent, and how indistinguishable those gods are from humans.

Quite obviously, the alleged miracles once ascribed to the gods have been scaled back as god(s) has had to attend to more pedestrian endeavors. Where once it was claimed that gods were required for every occurrence, now those same gods are relegated to a vastly less direct connection with natural events. Where once, god(s)s caused great earthquakes in his wrath, we now know that plate tectonics does the job for him. “Miracle’ists”, et al have assigned god(s) much less demanding tasks. We’re left with god(s) who have little else to do except make silly cross-word puzzles and to spend his time figuring out how many jinn can dance on the head of a pin.

Before, it was impossible to conceive of a world of ethics without a god, and now it is not at all inconceivable. It was inconceivable that there were not angels pushing the planets and gods opened flowers and so on-- but now it is natural to know that these things have non-divine underpinnings.
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thirdwatch512
12-15-2007, 07:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I think some are deliberate, namely the equal occurences of connected words, such as haven and hell, man and woman..
ah, I have never been impressed with the "man" "woman" = 24. Out of the thousands of words in the qu'ran, they come up with like 36 of them. Even then, a lot are lies (Like paradise and hell do not equal the same. paradise is mentioned 11 less times, but the person who claimed the miracle added one of the words for 'jinn' to 'jannah')

So yeah.. Those are no miracle at all. Go to any book, do a search on the number of occurrences of this and that word, match them up, and you are good to go.

what i DO find a bit interesting is how days is mentioned 30 times, and month 12, and day 365(even though there is a lot of dispute about that one.

I have searched word occurrences in many books and have never found one where month was mentioned 12 times, and days 30 times, just as both the lunar and solar calenders have.

But then again, I have never found any book where you can skip every 50 letters and find the word TORAH in the first two books, the next YHWH, and the last two have Torah backwards, hence making it all lead toward YHWH. I have looked at many books and have never found such.

So perhaps it is a coincidence.

I have been speaking to an islamic professor of arabic and pre islamic poetry, and I asked him if it was common for one to add such patterns(like month 12 times, days 30.) He said that he has never found any writing where such things were done. But, he also said that people have done such in english writings, but it is very uncommon within english.. Ocassionally people will do things. We are human, and all different! so I PMed him asking more about it and he has yet to respond.

so we will see! but i doubt it is any miracle. :)
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barney
12-15-2007, 10:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Resigned
We interrupt our regularly scheduled Koranic Miracle thread for a message from one of our sponsors--


Before, it was impossible to conceive of a world of ethics without a god, and now it is not at all inconceivable. It was inconceivable that there were not angels pushing the planets and gods opened flowers and so on-- but now it is natural to know that these things have non-divine underpinnings.
So God is relegated to being the force that created the mechanisms for life itself. Which is in my opinion where he should be in the first place. (My "God" is whatever initially created life and might turn out to be a collection of energy and physics.

There is no doubt now that the Crowd Pleaser Miracles dont happen. The Red sea remains unparting and the moon refused stalwartly to split.
Why? Because such events would be up on You-Tube.

Well hold on a second, because such Miracles already are. Nope I'm not talking about Marys face in tealeaves or Allah's name appearing on a BK Cone.
I'm talking big miracles here. What! You missed them?
The Tsunami and New Orleans.

1000 years from now the next prophets will talk about how the USA had sinnethed exceeding and God sent his roth to wrath the city of New Orleans.
And there were in those days them that warned against The US's sin, and called unto them to stop. The King of France did spurn the Emperor Bush and spake to him saying " Repent & ye shall avoid the waters" But Bush repentethethed not and a doom came upon them and despite their might they had no power.

Miracles are a wonderful mix of History, Passing time, Creative writing and Chinese whispers.
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Trumble
12-15-2007, 01:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Resigned
I have a need to make what I think is a frighteningly obvious point: since when does anyone ascribe the term “miraculous” to random and/or coincidental number sequences in a book?

When I listen to how people (“miracle’ists”, et al) describe their gods, I am always taken by two things: How really weak they make their gods while trying to make them omnipotent, and how indistinguishable those gods are from humans.

EXACTLY !!

The whole exercise is totally self-defeating.
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root
12-19-2007, 01:50 PM
I saw a miracle happen the other night on TV. A magician asked a member of the public to shoot a bullet out of a pistol and this magician performed a miracle right in front of my eyes by catching it between his teeth.

Since I don't undertand nor do I know how he did it I am left with no other choice than to believe it was a miracle!

David Blane anyone
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ajazz
12-19-2007, 02:49 PM
This is very interesting !

The 1969 Moon Landing is Indicated in the Qur'an

Sura (Chapter) 54 of the Quran is entitled “The Moon”


The Hour has drawn near and the moon has split. (Qur'an, 54:1)

The Arabic word "inshaqqa" (split) used in the above verse is derived from the word "shaqqa," which can also be used to mean "causing something to rise, ploughing or digging the soil":


departure of the lunar module, which left the lunar surface at 17:54:1 (Universal Time)
http://tinyurl.com/2a3uze


The minute and second of the departure (Moon splitting) is the same as the chapter number

verse 54:1 in the Quran to the end of the Quran, there are 1389 verses.

Remarkably, the year 1389 in the Islamic calendar is equivalent to the year 1969 which is the year that the first man landed on the Moon!

Also, Sura 54 itself has 55 verses. if we write 551389 next to each other, it will give us the exact day, month, and year that Apollo 11 landed on the moon: 07/20/1969. In other words, 5/5/1389 (in Islamic calendar) = 07/20/1969.

we add the digits of 1389
We get 1+3+8+9 = 21
It was the 21st of July of 1969 that NASA lifted off the Moon

(Allah knows best)
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ajazz
12-19-2007, 02:55 PM
NUMBERS IN THE HOLLY QURAN

number seven is a prime number it can only be divided by itself or by 1

Among all the numbers, the number seven is the first number stated in Quran.
Al-Fatihah (the opening), we find that it is made of seven verses, and it is composed of twenty-one alphabets, which is a multiple of seven (21=7*3).

"It (Hell) has seven Gates, for each of those Gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned
Al-Hijr, Chapter #15, Verse #44

the word “Hell” is repeated 77 times throughout the whole Quran

number of Suras from the Sura 2, where the number 7 is stated for the first time, to the Sura 78, where the number 7 is stated for the last time, we find that there are exactly 77 chapters

the number of verses from the verse (2:29), where 7 appears for the first time, to the verse (78:12), where 7 appears for the last time, we find that there are exactly 5649 verses, and this number is also a multiple of seven.
807 X 7 = 5649


When we count the number of verses from the beginning of Surat Al-Baqarah 2 (2:1), where 7 appears for the first time, to the end of Surat An-Naba 78 (78:40), where 7 appears for the last time, we find that there are 5705 verses, and this number is also a multiple of seven! 815 X 7 = 5705

“Allah” is stated for the first time in the first verse of the Quran, to the Sura 112, where “Allah” is stated for the last time, there are exactly 112 Suras, and this number is a multiple of seven. 16 X 7 = 112

From the verse (1:1) “Allah” is stated for the first time to the verse (112:2) “Allah” is stated for the last time, there are 6223 verses, and this number is also a multiple of seven
889 x 7 = 6223

The numbers of Quran’s alphabets is 28, i.e. 7*4.

The Prophet, may peace be upon Him, lived for 63 years, i.e. 7*9. Allah(swt) knows best.
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ajazz
12-19-2007, 02:58 PM
We sent aforetime our apostles with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His apostles: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will)

Surah 57:25. Al-Hadid (Iron)

(Yusuf Ali Translation)


Native Iron is quite often a misnomer as natural iron is not necessarily "native" to Earth since it rarely occurs on the Earth's surface by terrestrial processes. It is mostly found in the form of meteorites that have impacted the Earth's surface.(sent down)

It is postulated that another planet similar to Earth (a rocky planet) broke apart early in the formation of the solar system and is responsible for the iron-nickel debris that rains down upon the Earth on a daily basis

http://www.galleries.com/minerals/el.../iron/iron.htm


"Iron has been used for a very long time.primitive iron tools which have been
dug up are thought to be several thousand years old. These tools were probaly made from tiny amount of native iron found in the meteorites- lumps of rocks which have crashed to the earth from space.
meteroites contain most of the earth's native iron"

http://books.google.com/books?id=sp-...YVMCVUW_WTfyE4

"Al- Hadid" is the 57th sura in the Qur'an. The abjad of the word "Al-Hadid" in Arabic, when the numerological values of its letters are added up, is also 57.
The numerological value of the word "hadid" alone is 26. And 26 is the atomic number of iron.
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ajazz
12-19-2007, 03:01 PM
There are nineteen in charge of it." (Qur'an, 74:30)

19 is a prime number it can only be divided by itself or 1

The Qur'an consists of 114 (19 x 6) Suras

The first Sura to be revealed (Sura 96) is the 19th from the end

The first Sura to be revealed, Surat al-'Alaq, consists of 19 verses and 285 (19 x 15) letters.

Surat an-Nasr, the final Sura to be revealed, consists of a total of 19 words.

Formula = Bismillah ir Rehman ir Raheem

There are 114 Formulas in the Qur'an or 19 x 6.

The sum of all the occurrences of the name "Allah" in all the verses whose numbers are multiples of 19 (i.e., verses 19, 38, 57, 76, etc.) is 133, or 19 x 7.

The "abjad"or numerical value of the word "wahd" meaning "one" is 19. This word is used with various other words in the Qur'an, such as one door, one variety of food. It is used 19 times together with the name "Allah."


The total of the Sura and verse numbers of the occasions when the word "wahd" appears 19 times is 361: (19 x 19).

The Arabic word "wahdahu," meaning "worship only Allah," appears in the verses 7:70, 39:45, 40:12, 40:84 and 60:4. When these figures are added up without numbers being repeated, the resulting total is 361 (19 x 19).

The word "Rahman" (All-Merciful) appears 57 (19 x 3) times in the Qur'an.

the abjad value of the word "Majeed," used for the Qur'an, in the first verse of Surah Qaf is 57 (19 x 3, the total number of letters Qaf is also 57.

When we add together the number of times that the letter Qaf appears in the Qur'an, we reach a total of 798 (19 x 42). Forty-two is the number of another Sura with Qaf among its initial letters.

The letter Nun appears at the beginning of only the 68th Sura. The total number of times it appears in that Sura is 133 (19 x 7).
Reply

☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆
12-19-2007, 03:03 PM
Assalam o Allikum
Very intresting thread
JazakAllahu to all who contributed to giving information, Enjoyed reading this. :)
Reply

ajazz
12-19-2007, 03:04 PM
And verily in cattle there is A lesson for you. We give you to drink Of what is inside their bodies, Coming from a conjunction Between the contents of the Intestine and the blood, A milk pure and pleasant for Those who drink it. [Al-Quraan 16:66]

How cows make milk


Foods first enter the rumen and then moves into the second section of the stomach called the reticulum.

The reticulum is partially separated from the rumen. The job of these two sections is to soften the food and hold it there until the cow is finished eating. The food forms tennis sized balls called cud. The cow will bring cud up from her stomach to her mouth one at a time and chew it. The cow swallows the well-chewed cud and the food goes into the third part of the stomach.

This is where softening and grinding of the food continues.

Finally, the food reaches the "true stomach" and the food is digested.

The small intestine completes digestion and the nutrients are carried by the blood to the rest of the cow's body. These nutrients, along with water, fill the cow's udder to make milk.

http://moo2you.ca/production-how.html
Reply

ajazz
12-19-2007, 03:09 PM
Scientists' Comments On The Qur'an

Keith L. Moore

Professor Emeritus, Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of Toronto. Distinguished embryologist and the author of several medical textbooks, including Clinically Oriented Anatomy (3rd Edition) and The Developing Human (5th Edition, with T.V.N. Persaud).

At a conference in Cairo he presented a research paper and stated:

"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah.


E. Marshall Johnson


Professor and Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and Developmental Biology, and Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute, Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.

I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write

T.V.N. Persaud

Professor of Anatomy, and Professor of Paediatrics and Child Health, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.

I personally can't see how this could be mere chance, there are too many accuracies and like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind reconciling that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which lead him to these statements.


Joe Leigh Simpson
Professor and Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA.

"... these Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad) could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available at the time of the 'writer'... It follows that not only is there no conflict between genetics and religion (Islam) but in fact religion (Islam) may guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches... There exist statements in the Qur'an shown centuries later to be valid which support knowledge in the Qur'an having been derived from God."


Gerald C. Goeringer
Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA

"...In a relatively few ayahs (Qur'anic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development such as classification, terminology, and description existed previously. In most, if not all instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature."


Alfred KronerProfessor Kroner is one of the world's most famous geologists, becoming well known among his colleague scientists for his criticisms against the theories of some of the major scientists in his field. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zindani met with him and presented several Qur'anic verses and Hadith which he studied and commented upon.


"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...

If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'an in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'an is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago.

Yushidi Kusan
Director of the Tokyo Observatory, Tokyo, Japan.

"I say, I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in Qur'an, and for us modern astronomers have been studying very small piece of the universe. We have concentrated our efforts for understanding of very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts of the sky without thinking about the whole universe. So by reading Qur'an and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe."

Professor Armstrong
Professor Armstrong works for NASA and is also Professor of Astronomy, University of Kansas, Lawrence, Kansas, USA.

"That is a difficult question which I have been thinking about since our discussion here. I am impressed at how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy. I am not a sufficient scholar of human history to project myself completely and reliably into the circumstances that 1400 years ago would have prevailed.
Certainly, I would like to leave it at that, that what we have seen is remarkable, it may or may not admit of scientific explanation, there may well have to be something beyond what we understand as ordinary human experience to account for the writings that we have seen."

William Hay
Professor of Oceanogprahy, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA.
"I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Qur'an, and I have no way of knowing where they would have come from. But I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages."

And when he was asked about the source of the Qur'an, he replied, "Well, I would think it must be the divine being."

Professor Siaveda
Professor of Marine Geology, Japan.
"I think it seems to me very, very mysterious, almost unbelievable. I really think if what you have said is true, the book is really a very remarkable book, I agree.

Tejatat Tejasen
Chairman of the Department of Anatomy and is the former Dean of the faculty of Medicine, University of Chiang Mai, Chiang Mai, Thailand.
"In the last three years, I became interested in the Qur'an... From my studies and what I have learned throughout this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Qur'an fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means.

Dr. Maurice Bucaille
Born in 1920, former chief of the Surgical Clinic, University of Paris, has for a long time deeply interested in the correspondences between the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and modern secular knowledge.

How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human-being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?
Reply

ranma1/2
12-19-2007, 10:54 PM
if you believe this you should believe the bible code too.
Reply

Resigned
12-19-2007, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
Scientists' Comments On The Qur'an
Oh my. Do we really need to endure another cut and paster copying entire websites of Koranic "miracles"?

It's only miraculous how gullible some people are.
Reply

ajazz
12-20-2007, 05:18 AM
We have made the Qur'an easy to remember… (Qur'an, 54:22)


Four young Muslim boys from Wellington have memorised the entire Qur'an. The youngest of them is 12 years-old and the oldest is 16. They were taught at Regent Street Mosque in Wellington by the Imam and say they think they'll never forget what they have learnt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/cont..._feature.shtml

Surviving Rwanda genocide, now a hafiz

http://www.bt.com.bn/en/friday_speci...de_now_a_hafiz


A 5 Year From A Non Muslim Family Knows Full Quran

http://www.clip-arabe.com/clip-PB9AAdr1X3o.html

Young American Muslims Memorize the Quran

http://www.pluralism.org/news/article.php?id=2222

The 10-year-old boy is probably the youngest ever to have memorized the entire Quran.

http://www.intisaarul.netfirms.com/m...0young%20Hafiz

There are too many to quote!!!!!

According to a survey, the number of Huffaz (persons who have memorized the whole Quran) today is more than 10 million.
http://www.islam101.com/dawah/WhatIsQuran.html
Reply

ajazz
12-20-2007, 05:25 AM
We have made the Qur'an easy to remember… (Qur'an, 54:22)


Four young Muslim boys from Wellington have memorised the entire Qur'an. The youngest of them is 12 years-old and the oldest is 16. They were taught at Regent Street Mosque in Wellington by the Imam and say they think they'll never forget what they have learnt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/cont...feature.shtmll

Surviving Rwanda genocide, now a hafiz

http://www.bt.com.bn/en/friday_speci...de_now_a_hafiz


A 5 Year From A Non Muslim Family Knows Full Quran

http://www.clip-arabe.com/clip-PB9AAdr1X3o.html

Young American Muslims Memorize the Quran

http://www.pluralism.org/news/article.php?id=2222

The 10-year-old boy is probably the youngest ever to have memorized the entire Quran.

http://www.intisaarul.netfirms.com/m...0young%20Hafiz

There are too many to quote!!!!!

According to a survey, the number of Huffaz (persons who have memorized the whole Quran) today is more than 10 million.
http://www.islam101.com/dawah/WhatIsQuran.html
Reply

ajazz
12-20-2007, 06:41 AM
Why i cannot delet or edit my posts?
Reply

snakelegs
12-20-2007, 06:59 AM
i think you have to have 50 posts before you can use the edit function.
Reply

ajazz
12-20-2007, 07:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i think you have to have 50 posts before you can use the edit function.
Thanx
Reply

ajazz
12-20-2007, 08:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
if you believe this you should believe the bible code too.
The original bible is from Allah.
the bible we have today may contain some original words of god but it has been corrupted by additions and deletion by people to suit their own agenda
the original bible was not in English.
Reply

Chuck
12-20-2007, 08:14 AM
bible code is just counting the frequency occurrence?
Reply

ajazz
12-20-2007, 11:42 AM
He it is Who created you from clay, and then decreed a stated term (for you). And there is in His presence another determined term; yet ye doubt within yourselves!

(Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #2)

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

[Al-Quraan 21:30]


THE INGREDIENTS FOR LIFE

1) Liquid water

2) Chemical building blocks like carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen

3) An energy source

Biologists studying primitive organisms all agree on one thing. Liquid

water is absolutely essential for life to evolve and survive. The

search for life on other worlds is a search for places where water can

exist in liquid form. But why is water so precious?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/life/beginnings/



Soil and water and its relationship to the origin of life


U.S. Army Cold Regions Research and Engineering Laboratory, Hanover,

N.H., USA


stages of biogenesis occurred in intimate association with the mineral

constituents of soils.

clay minerals appeared very early on the primordial Earth. Recent

investigations have confirmed their presence in carbonaceous meteorites

and have indicated their occurrence on Mars.

http://www.springerlink.com/index/P313325107M65845.pdf


Clay and the Origins of Life


The Structure and Importance of Clay

The particular structure of this clay serves to provide a medium in

which the individual activated RNA units combine to form larger chains.
Montmorillonite clay is so far the only mineral found to catalyze the

synthesis of RNA polymers (with at least 10 nucleotides) from their

individual units. Research is currently progressing on how the

phosphate group initially bonds with the ribose-base and if there are

any other alternate minerals or clays which serve the same function.


http://www.origins.rpi.edu/clayandtheoriginsoflife.html
Reply

ajazz
12-20-2007, 09:17 PM
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder?
[Al-Quraan 21:30]




Some view Hubble's discovery as the most important event in astronomy in the century. It made the most basic change in our view of the world since Copernicus 400 years ago. His results showing that the universe was expanding supported a theory that had been proposed by Georges LeMaitre in 1927. A universe expanding, much like the aftereffect of an explosion, must have once been "unexploded," a single mass in time and space.

http://tinyurl.com/2qlyqy



Hey I’m not claiming this as miracle ok!
I just want you to scratch your head a little.
No?
Ok maybe when you get more dandruff you will scratch.



:uhwhat
Reply

Whatsthepoint
12-20-2007, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
This is very interesting !

The 1969 Moon Landing is Indicated in the Qur'an

Sura (Chapter) 54 of the Quran is entitled “The Moon”


The Hour has drawn near and the moon has split. (Qur'an, 54:1)

The Arabic word "inshaqqa" (split) used in the above verse is derived from the word "shaqqa," which can also be used to mean "causing something to rise, ploughing or digging the soil":


departure of the lunar module, which left the lunar surface at 17:54:1 (Universal Time)
http://tinyurl.com/2a3uze


The minute and second of the departure (Moon splitting) is the same as the chapter number

verse 54:1 in the Quran to the end of the Quran, there are 1389 verses.

Remarkably, the year 1389 in the Islamic calendar is equivalent to the year 1969 which is the year that the first man landed on the Moon!

Also, Sura 54 itself has 55 verses. if we write 551389 next to each other, it will give us the exact day, month, and year that Apollo 11 landed on the moon: 07/20/1969. In other words, 5/5/1389 (in Islamic calendar) = 07/20/1969.

we add the digits of 1389
We get 1+3+8+9 = 21
It was the 21st of July of 1969 that NASA lifted off the Moon

(Allah knows best)
Now this is very interesting.
:omg:
Reply

ranma1/2
12-21-2007, 12:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
bible code is just counting the frequency occurrence?
http://www.biblecodewisdom.com/


enjoy.
Reply

ajazz
12-21-2007, 02:54 PM
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder?
[Al-Quraan 21:30]

Is this big bang theory in nutshell?
No!

The big bang theory proposes that the universe was once extremely compact, dense, and hot. Some original event, a cosmic explosion called the big bang, occurred about 10 billion to 20 billion years ago, and the universe has since been expanding and cooling.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/sci_10.htm


Clove them asunder….????????????????????


CLOVE……….






ASUNDER……widely separated especially in space http://www.answers.com/asunder&r=67




FORMATION OF THE UNIVERSE
http://library.thinkquest.org/C01266...cond.intro.htm


Feels like scratching your head?
NO!

Hmm……still no dandruff.





(Allah knows best)
Reply

Qingu
12-22-2007, 03:30 AM
Every Mesopotamian mythology, including the Bible, and also including ancient Greek and Egyptian mythology, claims that the heavens and earth were once joined and that the creator-god separated them out into discernable parts.

• In the Enuma Elish, Marduk separates the sea goddess' corpse into sky and earth.
• In Egyptian mythology, the sky is the body of a fertility goddess.
• In Greek mythology, Ouranos, the sky, arose from Gaia, the sea/earth.
• In Genesis, Yahweh creates earth and heaven by splitting up the waters.
• In the Rig Veda, Indra separates the body of the ocean dragon into earth and sky.

I guess all of these mythologies were also talking about the Big Bang?
Reply

ajazz
12-22-2007, 06:26 AM
the image from above post disappeared miraculously !
here again the images


CLOVE........



BIGBANG


http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/1...eline75_lg.jpg

Reply

ajazz
12-22-2007, 06:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Every Mesopotamian mythology, including the Bible, and also including ancient Greek and Egyptian mythology, claims that the heavens and earth were once joined and that the creator-god separated them out into discernable parts.

• In the Enuma Elish, Marduk separates the sea goddess' corpse into sky and earth.
• In Egyptian mythology, the sky is the body of a fertility goddess.
• In Greek mythology, Ouranos, the sky, arose from Gaia, the sea/earth.
• In Genesis, Yahweh creates earth and heaven by splitting up the waters.
• In the Rig Veda, Indra separates the body of the ocean dragon into earth and sky.

I guess all of these mythologies were also talking about the Big Bang?

You think all the above explanations describe big bang in a nutshell?
nut.....nut.....nut.....

can these above explanations stand scientific scrutiny ?

can the explanation by quran stand scientific scrutiny?

ask yourself a honest question.
Reply

czgibson
12-22-2007, 08:00 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
You think all the above explanations describe big bang in a nutshell?
nut.....nut.....nut.....
They're about as close as the Qur'anic description.

can these above explanations stand scientific scrutiny ?
Nope.
can the explanation by quran stand scientific scrutiny?
Nope.

Post another picture of a clove - I'm sure that will make it more convincing. :hmm:

Peace
Reply

ajazz
12-22-2007, 10:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


They're about as close as the Qur'anic description.



Nope.


Nope.

Post another picture of a clove - I'm sure that will make it more convincing. :hmm:

Peace


Are these statements very similar or even close enough?

The heavens and the earth were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder

the Enuma Elish, Marduk separates the sea goddess' corpse into sky and earth.


And this...


The heavens and the earth were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder

The sky is the body of a fertility goddess


And this..



The heavens and the earth were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder


The sky, arose from Gaia, the sea/earth



And this…


The heavens and the earth were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder


Yahweh creates earth and heaven by splitting up the waters


And this..

The heavens and the earth were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder

Indra separates the body of the ocean dragon into earth and sky.



Are you a scientist?

Can you point out what is unscientific about the verse


Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder?
[Al-Quraan 21:30]


.
Reply

ajazz
12-22-2007, 10:45 AM
Here is a scientist who believes there is no scientific errors in Quran

Prof. of Mathematics (Ex-Atheist) on Accepting Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z73o...eature=related

and this one too


Scientist Converts to Islam after Studying Qur'an
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiQqM...eature=related

and another

European SCIENTIST Converts To ISLAM
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...09721856178863



:enough!:
Reply

ajazz
12-22-2007, 11:33 AM
Many Muslims in their enthusiasm go overboard and start saying
Look this is a miracle.... look. Look...theirs another miracle.

Alhumdulilah there are many miracles…..
Err…..
Coincidences
Err………
Interesting statements

????????????????????


But Quran is not a book of miracles nor is it a book of science
It is a book which contain signs and a book of guidance, a book of warning


But guidance for whom?

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

Quran 2:2

Signs for whom?


And He has subjected to you, as from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth: Behold, in that are Signs indeed for those who reflect.
Chapter #45, Verse #13


Warning for whom?


Say: "Behold all that is in the heavens and on earth"; but neither Signs nor warners profit those who believe not.

Chapter #10, Verse #101



As a Muslim my duty is to deliver the message of Islam
As I will be questioned about this on the Day of Judgment by Allah
No Muslim has the power to convert other person into Muslim nor he will be held accountable for the person who does not accept the message of Islam
But the message must be delivered and it is only Allah who can guide


yeah, so why i keep posting these things?

it may inspire some Muslim brother who are weak in their beliefs
or somebody who is really looking for answerers might benefit
it increases my knowledge as i do research
it may expel doubts if some of my Muslim brothers have it

.
Reply

ajazz
12-22-2007, 12:26 PM
you must have read my post on

Scientists' Comments On The Qur'an

now you can watch them speak!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73Efy...eature=related

ignore the video title please:D
Reply

ajazz
12-22-2007, 01:35 PM
"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted - Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:" S. 86:5-7

Here the drop is the semen that is ejaculated and anybody who thinks semen comes from testicles needs to brush up his brains rather than his teeth

Semen is not produced by testis they only produce sperms and sperms is not liquid

Semen facts


Semen doesn't just contain sperm, but fluids secreted by several glands during ejaculation.
  • During sexual arousal, and close to the point of climax, semen travels from the epididymis through a tube called the vas deferens. Here, it picks up a fluid rich in fructose - a sugary substance that acts a bit like rocket fuel.
  • Other fluids kick in along the way to the urethra (the tube that runs the length of the penis). This comes from the prostate gland, the Cowper's glands and the seminal vesicles. Some secretions are designed to neutralise acids (such as urine traces in the urethra), others provide vital enzymes).
  • The finished product contains approximately just 10% sperm. The rest consists of enzymes, vitamin C, calcium, protein, sodium, zinc, citric acid and fructose sugar.
http://tinyurl.com/2ly8ol


So semen has two distinct component sperm and liquid and it is the liquid that is emitted along with the sperm

What is this liquid made of and where does it come from?

It comes from prostate gland, the Cowper's glands ,the seminal vesicles, and stomach.

Stomach ?
why stomach is included?

Semen also contain enzymes, vitamin C, calcium, protein, sodium, zinc, citric acid and fructose sugar

And where do we get all this from?
All these enzymes, vitamin C, calcium, protein, sodium, zinc, citric acid and fructose sugar are extracted from the food we eat that is digested in our stomach!


  • Some people think the food guys eat has an impact on sperm taste.
  • Food containing naturally-occurring sugars, such as fruit (and even real ale) are believed to produce a finer vintage.
  • Red meat, and diets rich in dairy produce may not go down so well, so guys should go easy on the milk and cheese, as well as onions and garlic - just be aware that these are foods that play an important role in a balanced diet, so don't cut it out completely!
http://www.thesite.org/healthandwell...lth/semenfacts

And where are these prostate gland, the Cowper's glands ,the seminal vesicles, and stomach located?

Between the backbone and the ribs

Hey! This is no miracle just an explanation.




The Arabic words: Bain usSulbe watTaraib

Sulb = backbone, loin, lower back; Taraib = ribs, breastbone, chest.

Bain = between, among, amidst

It is a phrase in Arabic that is similar to the English phrase, “somewhere between the front and the back”



(Allah knows best)
Reply

ranma1/2
12-22-2007, 02:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
Here is a scientist who believes there is no scientific errors in Quran

Prof. of Mathematics (Ex-Atheist) on Accepting Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z73o...eature=related

scientist Converts to Islam after Studying Qur'an
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiQqM...eature=related

European SCIENTIST Converts To ISLAM
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...09721856178863

:enough!:
so?
someone became a muslim. thats nice. others have rejected islam too.
some have become atheists, christian, jewish ect...
Reply

Qingu
12-22-2007, 04:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
And where are these prostate gland, the Cowper's glands ,the seminal vesicles, and stomach located?

Between the backbone and the ribs
No they're not! Are you even remotely familiar with anatomy? Or are you deliberately lying?

I'd post pictures of anatomy but I'm not sure if they're too graphic for the forum. But your false claim is easy to check. You should have checked before posting.
Reply

Trumble
12-22-2007, 07:58 PM
I'm afraid he has a point; only the stomach is even near that position. The rest form part of the male reproductive organs which are nowhere near your ribs. Sulb you might get away with, but none of 'ribs', 'breastbone', or 'chest' is remotely accurate.

Here we see the dangers of seeing 'science' where there is none. If you take it as a vague statement of the obvious, it's fine. Pretend it is some sort of biological description and you have a 'Quran'ic scientific mistake'. Take your pick.
Reply

ajazz
12-22-2007, 10:13 PM
The Arabic words : Bain usSulbe watTaraib

An ejaculated fluid from: Bain usSulbe watTaraib

Sulb = backbone, loin, lower back; Taraib = ribs, breastbone, chest.

Bain = between, among, amidst

Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall reads

That issued from between the loins and ribs

Loins -- The region of the hips, groin, and lower abdomen
http://www.answers.com/loins&r=67




http://www.backbonechiropractic.com/l1l5.html

The Lumbar Spine is the part of your spine commonly referred to as your "lower back.

Many organs and tissues also get their nerve supply from nerves that exit from the lumbar spine. These include:

Large intestines
Appendix
Male and female reproductive organs
Bladder
Prostate gland
Many others
http://www.backbonechiropractic.com/l1l5.html



The prostate gland is located in front of the lumber spine and little lower, in front of rectum. But just above the coccyx which is the end of backbone.

Coccyx-- also called tailbone curved, semiflexible lower end of the backbone (vertebral column)
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9024559/coccyx






If we look from the side and draw two lines one parallel to the ribs and other parallel to the backbone, starting from the level of ribs(stomach) and ending at coccyx you will find that the organs mentioned lie between the two lines i.e. between backbone and ribs



Reply

ajazz
12-22-2007, 10:38 PM
At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."


quran:
An-Naml, Chapter #27, Verse #18


ha! ha! ants speaking

ERR!!! ....................................

Ant talk - ants may use acoustic signal for urgent communications
(getting curshed under foot certenly calls for urgent communicationd!!)
ANTS RAISE FUNGAL CROPS, HERD aphids, and wage war, all of which requires effident communication. Entomologists know that ants relay information to one another with chemicals called pheromones. But the chemical grapevine may not be the preferred medium for urgent communication, says acoustical engineer Robert Hickling of the University of Mississippi. His experiments with fire ants suggest that the ant hot line for distress or danger may be acoustic

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...17/ai_18471033


Yes. Ants often hold meetings. When an ant wants to attract the
Attention of another ant, it taps that ant on the head with its
Antennas/feelers. Ants communicate by chemical, touch,
sound,
Smell and sight. –UMI

http://www.antcam.com/info/faq/4.2.html
Reply

Trumble
12-22-2007, 11:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
If we look from the side and draw two lines one parallel to the ribs and other parallel to the backbone, starting from the level of ribs(stomach) and ending at coccyx you will find that the organs mentioned lie between the two lines i.e. between backbone and ribs
Oh, c'mon! No, lying between two imaginary lines does not mean "between backbone and ribs". "Between backbone and ribs" means just that. Your heart, and lungs, for example.

As I said, sulb you can get away with but taraib (ribs, breastbone, chest) you can not. It's either a meaningless description in scientific terms, or a 'scientific mistake' - and absurd to present it any other way.

As to the ants, 'speaking' involves an essential element that as far as we know (there are a few 'possibles' - not including ants) is restricted to homo sapiens, language. Language, that is, what the word actually means, is the ability to represent what we know and understand about the world as symbols that can be intelligently combined and manipulated, and using those symbols to transfer those concepts to others. Whether the ant 'hotline' is chemical or acoustic doesn't matter. What does matter is that the evidence ants can or ever could understand concepts like 'Solomon' or 'trampled', and hence use langauge, and hence speak, is one big fat zero. Anything else is just animal noise as made by birds, lions, cats, wolves or whatever. Even if such noise does serve the purpose of a 'warning', no animal understands the concept of either a warning or whatever it is being warned against such as, in this case, being trampled upon.

It's a fable, not 'science'. I'm sorry, but as I said before trying to present it as 'science' just makes the whole idea of Qur'anic 'science' look utterly ridiculous. And whose faith will that strengthen?
Reply

ajazz
12-23-2007, 10:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble

As I said, sulb you can get away with but taraib (ribs, breastbone, chest)
Since you are so generous by letting me get away with sulb but your generosity ends at the ribs!

So let me stretch you generosity by quoting Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall

So let man consider from what he is created.
He is created from a gushing fluid
That issued from between the loins and ribs.


Now it would have been sufficient just to mention sulb since it is easy, as everybody knows from which region the liquid is coming from.
So why complicate by mentioning ribs?





Yes, what you eat can influence the taste and smell of your semen

http://ezinearticles.com/?Semen---Sp...t-Tips&id=7858

foods can have a profound impact on the motility and force behind your ejaculation.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Learn-How-...Food&id=428306

It is clearly evident that stomach which extracts the nutrient from food plays an important
Part in production and ejaculation of semen.
So you see the phrase “between lions and ribs” is perfectly acceptable


:coolalien
Reply

Trumble
12-23-2007, 12:41 PM
I think we had better leave it there in case there are any children reading!! :uuh:
Reply

ajazz
12-23-2007, 10:06 PM
Can we talk about ants at least? Please

During the dark ages of Europe the Islamic world was at its peak
Islam has produce many great scientist, philosophers, doctors, mathematicians,
Inventors, surgeons, just Google it I promise you, you will be amazed.
Since we Muslims consider the Quran to be the word of god, and Allah (swt) tells
Don’t you see….reflect……think about his creation….
So anything mentioned in the Quran immediately catches our attention
And it sets us thinking why Allah (swt) has mentioned it, what’s must be the reason behind it.
If we are unable to figure it out or cannot explain a particular situation
Or may be we have explained a thing convincingly and yet it may be having some other meaning, which is why we always say Allah knows best
But we never disbelieve, we leave it to Allah to make it clear to us may be in future
When more information may be reveled.
But from a non-believers perspective we look like a bunch of fanatics proving this and proving that.

Ah...Ants let’s talk about them…..

Why Allah mentions ants and on the top of it says they talk?
What’s so special about them?


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble


What does matter is that the evidence ants can or ever could understand concepts like 'Solomon' or 'trampled', and hence use langauge, and hence speak, is one big fat zero.

Pharaoh ants can be a real nuisance, and can be somewhat difficult to control. The common mistake most homeowners make when combating pharaoh ants is to spray them with some type of insecticide. Pharaoh ants live in a colony and when the workers sense a danger from insecticides they send a signal back to their colony. This signal alerts the colony that there is danger and the colony responds by separating into smaller colonies and thus spreading the problem to other areas of the home
http://www.bushpestcontrol.com/pest_tips.php


One group of creature who have pioneered modes and methods of communication are the humble ants.

They can communicate to each other whenever they sense danger

http://www.schoolsahead.com/schools-....php?artid=Mjc=



Ants Are First Non-Humans to Teach, Study Says

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...011500588.html


When it comes to rapid road repairs, the ants have their own do-it-yourself highways agency,

http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSN2723080020070527


While many types of animals can learn behaviors by imitating other animals, ants may be the only group of animals besides primates and some other mammals in which interactive teaching behavior has been observed.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant#Communication



Ants lead frantically busy lives in an incredibly complex society. They plant gardens, herd and milk bugs such as aphids, raise armies for battles, take slaves, and even bury their dead in ant cemeteries. Most ants fight with their jaws, but one remarkable ant from Malaysia fights by exploding.


http://members.aol.com/yesclub2/blants.html


the finger is moved slowly within an inch or more of the ant. Its antennae wave rapidly. Its head and body jerk with eager intentness. It stretches forth its head, and reaches out its fore legs, with jaws eagerly agape and antennae quivering. The whole attitude and every bodily detail clearly express to the observer the idea of vigilance, of suspicion, of a challenge, of a purpose to repel.


Give the mound a sharp blow with foot or hand. What a change! Instantly the whole community is aroused.

Our home has been attacked! We are in danger! Rally to the defence! Death to our enemies!".
http://www.antcolonies.net/howantscommunicate.html



At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."


quran:
An-Naml, Chapter #27, Verse #18



your one big fat zero just had some additions of one fat zero and one mr slim, and now they stand as
100 :D


(Allah knows best)
Reply

Qingu
12-23-2007, 10:29 PM
You do realize that ants communicate by pheremones (chemicals), right?

Are you saying chemical communications constitute language?

When a tiger pees on a bush and another tiger smells the pee and walks the other way, are these tigers "speaking to each other"?
Reply

Trumble
12-24-2007, 02:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
Can we talk about ants at least? Please
We can, although I think you have totally missed my point.

They can communicate to each other whenever they sense danger
They do not 'sense' danger, or at least in the way you mean. If you read that article it refers to a 'trapped' ant... they respond to changes in their physical condition by releasing a chemical signal that is detected by other ants. It is a purely involuntary response by both parties, the trapped ant has no concept of 'danger' and no concious intention to inform other ants of any danger. It is communication, but not speech

Our home has been attacked! We are in danger! Rally to the defence! Death to our enemies!"
Pure anthropomorphism. Ants cannot formulate any of those concepts, be it "our", "home", "we" or "danger". Both communicating behaviour and the response to it are purely instinctive.

your one big fat zero just had some additions of one fat zero and one mr slim, and now they stand as
100
Nonsense. As I said, you have not grasped my point. The evidence that ants can speak is zero. Nobody disputes that they communicate just like many other animals - or indeed most animals in one way or another. Nobody disputes that ants are amazing creatures and live in complex 'societies'. But speech is a very particular sub-set of communication. Qingu's example is a very good one of a case in which the latter does not constitute the former!
Reply

ajazz
12-24-2007, 11:41 AM
It is you who is missing the point.

The ants are talking amongst them self
And Allah (swt) is telling us what they are saying or translating their talk for us


In some ways, ants and people are alike. Both ants and people take care of their young, live together, have different jobs, and depend on each other. Ants have all the senses that humans have but use different body parts to achieve the same goals

http://www.uen.org/Lessonplan/preview.cgi?LPid=18879


it is like you have a pet dog and he is hungry so he start barking or behaving in a particular manner and someone ask you what’s wrong with him and you may say oh.. He is asking for food.

HOW TO SPEAK DOG

Many people simply expect their dogs to understand what they say without taking the time to learn to speak dog. Instead of learning the language and customs of dogs
http://www.housepetmagazine.com/four..._speak_Dog.htm


Allah(swt) gave Prophet Solomon (pbuh) the ability to communicate with the animals

Pleas wait…..before you work yourself in frenzy and raise you bias and rigid attitude to dangerous levels, which makes you miss the point and instead of reflecting you start deflecting ……calm down.


Let me give you example of some amazing people.


Human Computer

At the fifty-second mark, the lady opens her eyes and slowly pronounces the answer, ‘546372891’. The professor checks it with the result given by the computer. Yes, she is correct. It is the 23rd root of the 201 digit long number. Earlier that day, the fastest computer of the time, Univac 1108, had taken 62 seconds to give the answer
(Note: she actually took even less time to calculate in her brain, 52 second includes the time taken to dictate the answer)
http://chennaionline.com/cityfeature...ancomputer.asp


Daniel Paul Tammet
He was born with congenital childhood epilepsy
but the detail and specificity of Tammet's mental imagery of numbers is unique. In his mind, he says, each number up to 10,000 has its own unique shape and feel, that he can "see" results of calculations as landscapes, and that he can "sense" whether a number is prime or composite. He has described his visual image of 289 as particularly ugly, 333 as particularly attractive, and pi as beautiful


The Boy with Sonar Vision

He's the only person in the world who sees using nothing but eco location, like a sonar or a dolphin.


Mister Eat-it-All

He apparently possesses a stomach and intestine with walls of twice the expected thickness, and his digestive acids are, allegedly, unusually powerful, allowing him to digest a certain portion of his metallic meals.


The Magnetic Man

He says that he discovered he had the amazing ability to make objects stick "magnetically" to his skin,

http://www.oddee.com/item_91848.aspx


So please do not balk or make fun or disbelieve when it is mentioned that Prophet Solomon (pbuh) had the ability to communicate with the animals.




.
Reply

ajazz
12-24-2007, 11:53 AM
Knoweth he not that Allah doth see?
Let him beware! If he desist not, We will drag him by the forelock
A lying, sinful forelock!

(Quran, 96:14-16)
Yusuf Ali


Does he not know that Allah does see?
Nay! if he desist not, We would certainly smite his forehead
A lying, sinful forehead

(Quran, 96:14-16)
Shakir


The front of the head as being lying and sinful?

Lying Makes Brain Work Harder

"There may be unique areas in the brain involved in deception that can be measured with fMRI,"


There were clear differences between the liars and the truth tellers

Lying caused activity in the frontal part of the brain

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2004/11/65871




alhamdulliah


(Allah knows best)
Reply

czgibson
12-24-2007, 04:40 PM
Greetings,

This thread is getting more ridiculous by the minute. The old 'scientific miracles in the Qur'an' argument crops up on LI with depressing regularity. It's amazing anyone still takes it at all seriously - it continues to take clutching at straws to new levels.

Peace
Reply

ranma1/2
12-25-2007, 03:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
It is you who is missing the point.

The ants are talking amongst them self
And Allah (swt) is telling us what they are saying or translating their talk for us


In some ways, ants and people are alike. Both ants and people take care of their young, live together, have different jobs, and depend on each other. Ants have all the senses that humans have but use different body parts to achieve the same goals
....
So please do not balk or make fun or disbelieve when it is mentioned that Prophet Solomon (pbuh) had the ability to communicate with the animals.

.
Im not sure what this posts had to do with anything.
Ants cant speak. Im not sure how any of these show they can. (and pretty much each them are scientificly explainable and understood. (the spiderman guy has a skin condition, not to mention hes at an angle)
Reply

ajazz
12-26-2007, 04:57 PM
This is no miracle nor it is interesting this is just for the record.

Mother's Milk


"And We have enjoined upon man goodness towards his parents: his mother bore him by bearing strain upon strain, and his weaning was in two years: (hence, O man,) be grateful to Me and to your parents; to Me is the eventual coming."
(The Qur'an, 31:14)


World Health Organization (WHO)


The WHO recommends that mothers continue breastfeeding for up to two years—while giving complementary foods after four to six months—to improve the nutritional status and health of the baby

Breastfeeding for up to two years may help with child spacing since conception is less likely during breastfeeding than afterwards. This is an important policy consideration for a poor developing country, but many American women will choose a more effective means of contraception than breastfeeding can guarantee. However, if you choose to rely on this important benefit of breastfeeding, do continue to breastfeed your baby for at least two years—or until you are ready to have another child.

http://www.med.nyu.edu/patientcare/l...ChunkIID=42463

( This site contain inappropriate image )
Reply

ajazz
12-26-2007, 07:38 PM
Allah has cursed him; and he said: Most certainly I will take of Thy servants an appointed portion:

And most certainly I will lead them astray and excite in them vain desires, and bid them so that they shall slit the ears of the cattle, and most certainly I will bid them so that they shall alter Allah's creation; and whoever takes the Shaitan for a guardian rather than Allah he indeed shall suffer a manifest loss.

Quran
An-Nisa 118: 119
Shakir



Man altering Allah’s creation?
How?

Genetic Engineering


Ring any bell?

In the past three decades, scientists have
learned how to mix and match characteristics among unrelated
creatures by moving genes from one creature to another. This is
called "genetic engineering."


As we saw in our series on genetic engineering of food crops,
genetic "engineers" are now moving genes around among plants,
animals, and bacteria on a regular basis, but with very little
understanding of the possible consequences, and almost no safety
testing. Now genetic engineers are starting to modify the genes
of humans, using three approaches: 1) cloning, 2) somatic cell
manipulation, and 3) human germline manipulation.

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/GEessays/engineerhumans.html


Human genes are also being put into animals, so that they that produce human proteins

The technology being used to create these genetically-modified animals could one day be used to genetically alter humans.

Only time will tell what the long-term consequences of this will be.



http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/sc...ng/index.shtml



And verily We have coined for mankind in this Qur'an all kinds of similitudes, that haply they may reflect;

Sura #39 :27
Pickthal






.
Reply

ajazz
12-27-2007, 10:39 AM
See they not how we aim to the land, reducing it of its outlying parts? (When) Allah doometh there is none that can postpone His doom, and He is swift at reckoning.


Quran 13:41
Pickthal



What are the outlying parts of land on earth which are reducing?

Coastal areas!

How are coastal areas reducing?


The Rising Tide: Global
Warming Accelerates
Coastal Erosion

A 1-ft. rise in sea level could erode beaches 50-200 ft. along most of the US' Atlantic coastline,

http://www.forester.net/ec_9909_rising_tide.html



INSIGHTS: The Earth Is Shrinking

Measured by the land area that can support human habitation, the earth is shrinking. Mounting population densities, once generated solely by the addition of over 70 million people per year, are now also fueled by the relentless advance of deserts and the rise in sea level.

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/nov2...-20-insbro.asp



During the twentieth century, sea level rose by 10–20 centimeters (4–8 inches), more than half as much as it had risen during the preceding 2,000 years


The most easily measured effect of rising sea level is the inundation of coastal areas

Many developing countries already coping with population growth and intense competition for living space and cropland are now facing the prospect of rising sea level and substantial land losses


http://www.earth-policy.org/Books/Eco/EEch2_ss4.htm



Allah (swt) alone knows the true and exact meaning of all things…
All the true information or explanations that I gave are from Allah and if I unintentionally gave any wrong information or explanation it is from me and I ask Allah to forgive me and correct me and increase my knowledge
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-27-2007, 01:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
So please do not balk or make fun or disbelieve when it is mentioned that Prophet Solomon (pbuh) had the ability to communicate with the animals.
I communicate with animals all the time. I tell my dog to come, he comes. He barks when he wants to go out to pee. Many researchers have trained chimps to do sign language. Saying we can communicate with animals isn't really saying much.

Or do you mean communicate with them like Aquaman, hearing "voices"?
Reply

ajazz
12-27-2007, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
do you mean communicate with them like Aquaman, hearing "voices"?

format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
What does matter is that the evidence ants can or ever could understand concepts like 'Solomon' or 'trampled', and hence use langauge, and hence speak, is one big fat zero.

Can you prove ants do not understand concepts like being trampled?


Meanwhile….enjoy, who knows this story, might be true so
Keep your mind open and mouth shut



Man Talks To Animals -
And They Talk Back


That's what Northern does. He talks to animals. Most of us do. But for Northern, they talk back. In English. In sentence form. Verbs and nouns and adjectives
At least that's the way I hear it," he shrugs.

winter ranch in New Zealand, is in demand as an "animal communicator," acting as a kind of translator and arbitration board between pet and owner

animal experts say some humans do have a better rapport with animals than others.


Animals pass judgment

"That sort of general observation is apparent to anyone who hangs around animals," observed Dr. Pauline Yap of Companion Animal Hospital in Kailua. "Those are sorts of cliches about horse and dog and cat behavior, and generally accurate for most animals

And animals read US very well. They're very sensitive to our moods, our vibes. I knew from childhood, for example, that I had a natural affinity for animals, and that wasn't something I learned. It was natural.


So scientists and doctors know there's something going on between people and animals on an unconscious, intuitive level. But abstract communication? Real heart-to-hearts? Hmmmmm


http://www.rense.com/ufo6/dolittle.htm




.
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-27-2007, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
That's what Northern does. He talks to animals. Most of us do. But for Northern, they talk back. In English. In sentence form. Verbs and nouns and adjectives
At least that's the way I hear it," he shrugs.

winter ranch in New Zealand, is in demand as an "animal communicator," acting as a kind of translator and arbitration board between pet and owner
You don't really believe him, do you? This sort of scam has been going on for a long time. There are also "animal psychics". This is the stuff of late night informercials (right up there with spray on hair for that troublesome bald spot).
Reply

Trumble
12-27-2007, 11:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
Can you prove ants do not understand concepts like being trampled?
No. My claim was that, like every animal with the exception of man and (concievably) some other mammals such as other primates and cetaceans, there is no evidence whatsoever that they can understand any concepts at all. If you have any evidence to the contrary, as to opposed to waffle, please produce it.

Keep your mind open and mouth shut
I always do the former, and will ignore the latter thank you very much. :sunny:
Reply

جوري
12-27-2007, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

This thread is getting more ridiculous by the minute. The old 'scientific miracles in the Qur'an' argument crops up on LI with depressing regularity. It's amazing anyone still takes it at all seriously - it continues to take clutching at straws to new levels.

Peace
This thread is from 2006. If cropping up with a 'depressing regularity' gives you a bad case of SJS, I suggest you type some other internet address in your go bar ey? I and am sure many others enjoy them and I believe the purpose of the forum is to foster Islamic ideology, juriprudence, accomplishments etc etc, not atheistic delusions. Want to be with like minds the 'progressive few', then sign up for the dawkin or atheist forums!



cheers
Reply

czgibson
12-28-2007, 12:14 AM
Greetings, PA,

Thanks for your interest. Your support is always etc.

Peace
Reply

جوري
12-28-2007, 12:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings, PA,

Thanks for your interest. Your support is always etc.

Peace
your blas&#233; indifference is really getting to me, there are however, forum rules against taking up webspace on nonsense and spreading muck!
Again until you have something of substance to impart I suggest you take a hike!

cheers
Reply

ranma1/2
12-28-2007, 04:34 AM
Mr. Kettle id like you to meet Mr. Pot.
Reply

ajazz
12-28-2007, 10:16 PM
And they said: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Allah is certainly Able to send down a sign, but most of them know not."

There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered.

Those who reject Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are deaf and dumb in darkness. Allah sends astray whom He wills and He guides on the Straight Path whom He wills


Al-Anaam Sura #6 37:39
Translation Mohsin Khan


Animals and birds live in communities.

What’s so great?
It is easy to observe them anybody can see it.


Hey! Wait

Was microscope invented 1400 years ago?

A new understanding of these microbial communities is driving a revolution that may transform the science of microbiology

When we think about bacteria, most of us imagine a watery milieu, with single-celled organisms swimming about.

Rather than living as lonely hermits in the so-called planktonic form, most bacteria spend much of their lives in the microbial equivalent of a gated community—a biofilm.

(gated community- A subdivision or neighborhood, often surrounded by a barrier, to which entry is restricted to residents and their guests. http://www.answers.com/gated+community&r=67)


An appreciation of the significance of biofilms is a relatively recent phenomenon. Only within the past 15 to 20 years have biologists begun to examine the physiology of these microbial communities.


http://www.americanscientist.org/tem...?fulltext=true


Even microbes live in communities!!!!!


:shade:
Reply

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