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Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-01-2006, 09:35 PM
:sl:

TEHRAN (Reuters) - A Moroccan won first prize on Wednesday in
Iran's International Holocaust Cartoons Contest, which had sparked outrage in
Israel, the West and among Jewish groups.

Iran's best-selling newspaper, Hamshahri, launched a competition in February to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust, in which 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis.

The contest was a retaliation for last year's publication of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad in Danish and other European newspapers that angered Muslims worldwide.

Presenting a prize to a representative of Moroccan cartoonist Abdellah Derkaoui, Culture and Islamic Guidance Minister Mohammad Hossein Saffar-Harandi praised Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who has described the Holocaust as a "myth."

"Our president was the brave and freedom-seeking person who started this debate without being concerned about its consequences," Saffar-Harandi said.

Derkaoui's cartoon shows a crane with a Star of David sign, putting up blocks making a wall separating the Muslim shrine, the Dome of the Rock, from Jerusalem. The wall has a gate, shown in the distance, that looks like one at the Auschwitz concentration camp, where Jews were incarcerated and killed.

"The taboo is broken now. People should not think that by questioning the Holocaust, they are committing a crime," the minister said. The Moroccan cartoonist won $12,000.

Masoud Shojai-Tabatabai, head of the Cartoon House which helped organize the exhibition of entries, said the government was not financing the prizes but he did not say who was.

In September, while in Tehran, U.N. Secretary General
Kofi Annan condemned the cartoon exhibition and said the Holocaust was an undeniable historical fact.

"We should be careful not to say anything that is used as an excuse for incitement to hatred or violence," he said.

The second prize, worth $8,000, went jointly to French and Brazilian cartoonists. The third-placed competitor was an Iranian cartoonist.

Shojai-Tabatabai did not reveal the French cartoonist's name. "You can call the French cartoonist 'Mr. X'. If I reveal his name, he may face imprisonment in France."

Organizers said some 1,193 drawings had been received from 62 countries including some European states where it is a crime to deny the Holocaust. Some 204 were on display.

The messages of the cartoons displayed were not always clear although several seemed to poke fun at the United States, Iran's arch-enemy.

The competition drew condemnation from the Israeli government, Jewish groups and the mayor of Paris. The United States called the idea "outrageous."

Israeli government spokesman Gideon Meir called on the international community to express disgust for "such an anti-Semitic and inhuman event."

Source
The cartoons against Prophet Muhammed were more than "outrageous", but i thought it was a matter of free speech then? Why the big fuss now? Why the hypocracy?

Oh, but the massacre of Palestinians everyday isnt "inhuman"; no it's very human like.
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MTAFFI
11-01-2006, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Ähmed
:sl:

The cartoons against Prophet Muhammed were more than "outrageous", but i thought it was a matter of free speech then? Why the big fuss now? Why the hypocracy?

Oh, but the massacre of Palestinians everyday isnt "inhuman"; no it's very human like.
i would say that both the depictions of the prophet and the pictures at this "museum" are both inspired by hate. Neither is humane and neither is right. Fighting hate with hate is never good and the people who inspired all of this controversy will ultimately pay for it in the end. That said, I wouldnt be suprised if we see more pictures of the prophet because of this. There were many pictures that were offensive regarding the holocaust, actually a museum full. I wonder what the muslims would do if rather than a newspaper article was printed of the prophet, an entire museum was opened to print pictures of the prophet? And then the best one was awarded for it.
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wilberhum
11-01-2006, 10:07 PM
which had sparked outrage in Israel, the West and among Jewish groups.
Why didn't I see any outrage? I lookede and I looked and never saw anything.
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Umar001
11-01-2006, 10:14 PM
I dont get why they done one of the holocoust, were the people who drew the pics of who they said was Muhammad Jews? Even so, were they Jews from the Holocoust?
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IzakHalevas
11-01-2006, 10:29 PM
The cartoons against Prophet Muhammed were more than "outrageous", but i thought it was a matter of free speech then?
Oh, I did not realize that Jews and Israeli's alike were burning down embassies and people are being killed over this cartoon contest... Could you kindly point me towards the instances in which they were?

Why the big fuss now?
You call this a big fuss? For days on end, endless protests across the world occurred in protests of the prophet cartoon, can you point me to the "big fuss" Jews are creating around the world currently?

Why the hypocrisy?
Iran is the last country that should tell the world about FREEDOM of speech:

The only hypocritical act I see is coming straight from Iran as they continue to hold Omid Memarian, an Iranian human rights activist who has creatively used the internet to press for a more open and democratic political regime in Iran, Ali Akbar Mousavi Khoini, a former member of parliament and critic of Iranian detention practices who has been arrested by police for using his right to "freedom of speech" in Iran, and killed student activist Akbar Mohammadi who engaged in peaceful protests to bring reforms to Iran.

If Iran wishes to tell the world about having "freedom of speech" shouldn't they cease from jailing, silencing, and killing people critical of their regime, similar to the ways the Nazi's silenced their critics.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/03/iran13895.htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/09/26/iran14256.htm
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/26/iran14378.htm

The only act which would truly define the word "hypocrisy" is your post in reality. You are in obvious support of the use of "free speech" in this instance when making a joke of the mass murder of six million individuals by a state sponsored genocide, yet you are in outrage when your prophet appears in a cartoon. So lets set the record straight:
  • You believe that because Danish newspaper created a Prophet Cartoon, then it is hypocritical for a Jewish person to be angry at a Holocaust Cartoon that was a "response" even though the Jews and Israel had nothing to do with it.
  • You believe that Iran was right in representing freedom of speech in poking fun at a mass genocide, but you believe that Danish were wrong in poking fun at your prophet.
  • You believe that Jewish groups should not complain about a cartoon mimicking and event where six million of their brethren died, yet you believe you have the right to complain about a cartoon mimicking your prophet.
By the way, I am waiting for the links to the large amount of articles revealing the burning and killing taking place in these mass protests of Jews against freedom of speech around the world!

Of course the Jews and the genocide which was responsible for so much of their pain should be laughed at because DANISH artists made fun of your prophet... And you label others as hypocrites?

I don't wish for my post to be thought of as an attack, I am just trying to estabish a point and reason with you, that in reality, the cartoon contest in Iran is not justified, and it has hurt a lot of people some I know.

Why hurt a Jew when it was a Dane who hurt you? It makes no sense.
__________
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Trumble
11-01-2006, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by Ähmed
:sl:

The cartoons against Prophet Muhammed were more than "outrageous", but i thought it was a matter of free speech then? Why the big fuss now? Why the hypocracy?

What hypocrisy? The assorted condemnation in Western countries was an example of 'free speech' (as were the cartoons, or at least of free expression), but I don't recall riots or attacks on the Iranian embassy. Muslim condemnation of, and demonstrations against, the cartoons were also an example of free speech and were perfectly acceptable providing they did not incite violence. As Wilburhum said, the "outrage" was limited to a few columns in newspapers and the odd government statement.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-01-2006, 10:38 PM
Oh, I did not realize that Jews and Israeli's alike were burning down embassies and people are being killed over this cartoon contest... Could you kindly point me towards the instances in which they were?
My comment was regarding the comments of the officials of different countries.

Iran is the last country that should tell the world about FREEDOM of speech:


"You can call the French cartoonist 'Mr. X'. If I reveal his name, he may face imprisonment in France."
If a person would face imprisonment in France for something like this, those who made the cartoons about the Prophet should face imprisonment EQUALLY, but no, they were defended in the name of free speech! But Iran allowed this in the name of free speech. I dont see the problem there.

I don't wish for my post to be thought of as an attack, I am just trying to estabish a point and reason with you, that in reality, the cartoon contest in Iran is not justified, and it has hurt a lot of people some I know.
Why pick on Muslims for no reason?! Blame free speech! The cartoons on Prophet Muhammad are NOT justified either, but they were tried to be made justified in the name of Free Speech!

Why hurt a Jew when it was a Dane who hurt you? It makes no sense.


Testing Free Speech. Im sure Iran has nothing agaisnt Jews.

Also, thanks for your opinions everyone ;)
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wilberhum
11-01-2006, 10:38 PM
IzakHalevas
I was trying to be nice. But you make your point much clearer.
You have my respect.
Wilber
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IzakHalevas
11-01-2006, 10:45 PM
If a person would face imprisonment in France for something like this, those who made the cartoons about the Prophet should face imprisonment EQUALLY, but no, they were defended in the name of free speech! But Iran allowed this in the name of free speech. I dont see the problem there.
Oh I agree this is hypocritical, but you need to differentiate between a state sponsored mimicking of a genocide, and a cartoonists mimicking of your prophet. To support Iran's right to mimic the deaths of others in a cartoon, yet show even an inch of anger at Denmark's is highly hypocritical.

If Islam teaches to "sink down to the level" of the person who insults you then Iran has indeed accomplished that feet, but to tell you the truth, I don't believe Islam teaches that.
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wilberhum
11-01-2006, 10:52 PM
If a person would face imprisonment in France for something like this, those who made the cartoons about the Prophet should face imprisonment EQUALLY,
You have to have no understanding why the holocoust denial law were enacted to make such a compairson.
If we follow your logic, it would be against the law to call Jesus a prophit.
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Umar001
11-01-2006, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
You have to have no understanding why the holocoust denial law were enacted to make such a compairson.
If we follow your logic, it would be against the law to call Jesus a prophit.
Why would that be? Jesus refered to himself as a prophet :)
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Islamicboy
11-01-2006, 10:59 PM
As Salam Alykum

How can muslims mock death of humans astagfurillaah!
This is not islam!
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-01-2006, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Oh I agree this is hypocritical, but you need to differentiate between a state sponsored mimicking of a genocide, and a cartoonists mimicking of your prophet. To support Iran's right to mimic the deaths of others in a cartoon, yet show even an inch of anger at Denmark's is highly hypocritical.
We love the Messenger of God more than you love all those people that were killed there, no matter if you love them a hundred times over. Your anger for what Iran has done is quite frankly minisicule to ours regarding the cartoons made about the Prophet. There is no comparison between the two in terms of our caring for the Messenger of God.

I agree that the violence in the name of the cartoons was wrong.

I am not supporting Iran in using the Holocaust, but what I am agreeing with is the fact that they are testing the Western concept of Free Speech. Yes it might hurt the feelings of some, but the point is, Iran was not the one to start this business of using cartoons to hurt others. Regardless of what the topic was, it could have been about another 'touchy' topic in history, as long as the same effect was achieved.

I do not deny the holocaust. You are missing my point here.

If Islam teaches to "sink down to the level" of the person who insults you then Iran has indeed accomplished that feet, but to tell you the truth, I don't believe Islam teaches that.
In fact, Islam does not teach that. On the contrary the Quran says,

25: 63 And the bondmen of the Most Affectionate are those who walk on the earth modestly and when the ignorant address them, they say, 'peace'.

But you are wrong to associate this act with the religion. This was just done to test free speech, to expose the hypocracy.
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Woodrow
11-01-2006, 11:05 PM
Moraly both were wrong in my opinion. I see not sociol or educational justification for either set of cartoons. At best both are in poor taste at worse both or atempts to slandedr and belittle another persons values, unfairly.

Now legaly I do not see were either violated any secular laws.

In any event any and all "destructive" protests are as wrong as the cartoons themselves. Both, should be protested by those who are offended, but the protests can only be valued if they are done by peacefull means.


My next statement is meant as satire. But to me it is the message destructive protesters convey.
I am a very peacefull person and I will maim, demolish, torture, slander and destroy anybody who says I am not Peacefull.
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wilberhum
11-01-2006, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Why would that be? Jesus refered to himself as a prophet :)
But Christians say he is god. But then you know that. :hiding: :hiding:

PS: All beef processing should be against the law too.
and the list goes on and on.
But then, in reality, you only want protection for what you believe.
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`Abd al-Azeez
11-01-2006, 11:18 PM
:sl:
Is there a source for this bro?
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wilberhum
11-01-2006, 11:29 PM
Originally Posted by `Abd al-Azeez
:sl:
Is there a source for this bro?
I'm not your bro, but:
http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...C2_worldNews-8
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KAding
11-01-2006, 11:31 PM
I agree. Many European countries are being hyopcritical with their anti-discrimination anti-holocaust denial laws.

But then again. Iran certainly isn't in a very good position to point that out, now is it? I mean, they censor their press and have closed loads of indpendent newspapers in the last few years. While some European countries do indeed have some unwarranted restrictions on free speech, clearly Iran has an awful lot of them. I mean, they score pretty much in the last top 10 as far as press freedom is concerned. Just behind Saudi-Arabia and right in front of China.
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lavikor201
11-01-2006, 11:32 PM
We love the Messenger of God more than you love all those people that were killed there
Since when do you have the ability to measure love like that? I think that statement is complelty outrageous.

am not supporting Iran in using the Holocaust, but what I am agreeing with is the fact that they are testing the Western concept of Free Speech.
As Izak stated, Iran should look into the lack of freedom of speech they give to their own citizens and activists before they challenge the wests.

How can muslims mock death of humans astagfurillaah!
This is not islam!
Good Post.
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hakkerz
11-01-2006, 11:49 PM
Honestly people!

Im hot preaching hate or anything, but if the Iranian president assumes that the holocaust never happened, and its all just a big joke, then hey, lets make funny pictures and cartoons about it. Freedom of speech? You mean like the one the netherlands has for imprisoning someone who rejects the hollocaust? or the one Turkey has for charging a writer who said that the Armenian genocide took place? No offence to our jewish brothers, but if all of a sudden you care that Iran is making cartoons about the holocaust, and expect everyone else to care, when in reality, nobody but muslims really cared about the Danish cartoon?

We unfortunately live in a selfish world, people only care when THEY are affected or they feel THEIR rights are being abused, so dont expect sympathy anytime soon...

Salamz.
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hakkerz
11-01-2006, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by lavikor201
As Izak stated, Iran should look into the lack of freedom of speech they give to their own citizens and activists before they challenge the wests.

Hmm, funny how that applies to Iran, yet doesnt apply to America when it tries to enforce its democracy in Iraq/Afghanistan and pretty much the rest of the world. Guantanamo bay anyone?

America has the attitude of..loool...if you dont come to democracy, democracy will come to you.. At least Iran isnt trying to enforce 'its' ideology on people in a forceful manner....well, not yet anyways...;D
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Bittersteel
11-02-2006, 02:42 AM
Iran is the last country that should tell the world about FREEDOM of speech:
same goes for a lot of other countries.

Iran should look into the lack of freedom of speech they give to their own citizens and activists before they challenge the wests.
Iran have Islamic laws(okay Shiite laws) and they are not compatible with freedom of speech and other secular ideologies tha originated in the west.
Most probably they wanted to irritate both the western countries and Israel due to the recent ongoing political crisis.
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north_malaysian
11-02-2006, 04:02 AM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
As Salam Alykum

How can muslims mock death of humans astagfurillaah!
This is not islam!
Good point.... I hope the mods will ban any cartoon that won or compete in that Holocaust Cartoon Contest in this forum..
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IzakHalevas
11-02-2006, 07:52 PM
Hello hakkerz,
No offence to our jewish brothers, but if all of a sudden you care that Iran is making cartoons about the holocaust, and expect everyone else to care, when in reality, nobody but muslims really cared about the Danish cartoon?
Actually, on the contrary. The Jewish people did nothing to you, and to mock the fact that their was a mass genocide against them, then you are only inciting more animosity towards yourself. If you wish to censure cartoons about the prophet because they are disrespectful to you, then advocating freedom of speech in the name of poking fun at mass murder is not the best route to accomplish your goals.

Hmm, funny how that applies to Iran, yet doesnt apply to America when it tries to enforce its democracy in Iraq/Afghanistan and pretty much the rest of the world. Guantanamo bay anyone?
We are speaking about freedom of the press currently. If you would like to stay on topic as I have been doing, then please present the American reporters being jailed because they are not reporting what the government tells them to say. In Iran, some of the most outrageous freedom of speech violations on this earth occur each day. Student activists and people opposed to secret prisons are arrested and then simply die by "accident" a few days later in the jails.

Hi Emir Aziz,
Iran have Islamic laws(okay Shiite laws) and they are not compatible with freedom of speech and other secular ideologies tha originated in the west.
What!?! I wasn't aware that Islamic law labeled all who go against the political agenda (no religious) of their government Haraam. Can you please state the verse in the Quran which tells you that it is wrong to disagree with your countries foreign policy, relations ect.

Does Iran when they arrest and let their prisoners who also happen to be Muslim die by "accident" not violate Islamic law by killing a fellow Muslim? Does Iran not violate Islamic law by committing acts of racism when they arrest ethnic Arabs for certain crimes they do not arrest ethnic Persians for? I was almost 100% that the Quran does not support the notion of racism.

Most probably they wanted to irritate both the western countries and Israel due to the recent ongoing political crisis.
That makes perfect sense. :rollseyes A country like Iran which always tries to be meticulous in defining that they are against "zionists" not "jews" mocks an event which was a mass killing of "Jews" and not "Zionists". I mean if a country which claims to not be anti-Jewish, only anti-Zionists, makes cartoons about Jews dieing in gas chambers, and it is because of an "ongoing political crisis" then they must not be telling the truth, and they are indeed anti-Jewish, if you are to connect the cartoon and israel-iran conflict together.
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hakkerz
11-02-2006, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Hello hakkerz,


Actually, on the contrary. The Jewish people did nothing to you, and to mock the fact that their was a mass genocide against them, then you are only inciting more animosity towards yourself. If you wish to censure cartoons about the prophet because they are disrespectful to you, then advocating freedom of speech in the name of poking fun at mass murder is not the best route to accomplish your goals.


We are speaking about freedom of the press currently. If you would like to stay on topic as I have been doing, then please present the American reporters being jailed because they are not reporting what the government tells them to say. In Iran, some of the most outrageous freedom of speech violations on this earth occur each day. Student activists and people opposed to secret prisons are arrested and then simply die by "accident" a few days later in the jails.

In response to the first point. My point is that how can you poke fun at a mass murder, that in the eyes of Iran, never took place. If you dont believe it exists, then you cant cause offence to it. To them, it is like making fun out of the fact that little kids believe in Santa Clause. Im not saying this is my opinion, im merely saying that that is the Iranian opinion on the issue.

I was talking about freedom of press if you bothered to read the rest of my post, where i said that the turkish journalist who said that the armenian genocide happened and was put on trial and the british writer in the netherlands who was imprisoned because he didnt believe the holocaust took place.

The difference is, most of what you say is speculation and a conspiracy theory that in reality probably only stems out of not liking Iran, for whatever reason.

And if you want to talk specifically about Israel, as it is a 'jewish state', be it an illegal one. If you dont call the censorship of newspapers in Israel on the covering of the Hizbollah-Israeli war, then that just shows an blatent bias in the issue. Im not going to go into the details on this subject because it is going to get off subject, however a quick article can be read by a BBC reporter about the censorship at http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...articleId=2845.

However, remember when the Mordechai Vanunu told a reporter about Israels nuclear program? How many years was he in jail? The reporter faced charges, and a BBC reporter who interviewed him after his realease was expelled from the country.

America? HA!, dont get me started.

Im not having a go at the jewish faith, nor am i saying that the cartoons were right or wrong. My point is simply that there is a clear double standard in this world, and that if it the weak/less powerful getting trampled in, nobody will take notice until you do something about it. I think that the cartoons raise a point more than anything. The fact that you are debating this topic, shows this point. You would never be willing to have argued against the Danish cartoons, maybe because you thought it wasnt wrong, but more likely because you didnt care, i dont see why the rest of the world should be expected to care about this either.

Take Care Bro

Peace
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hakkerz
11-02-2006, 10:31 PM
just a little comment as well..Student activists in a country, are by definition, showing you that there is democracy. If you were living in Iraq for example, Under Saddams regime, you wouldnt be able to demonstrate, because you would be prevented from doing so!.lol. So in fact, to be able to express your opinions shows democracy.

Im not saying Iran is a perfect in its politics, but a lot of what you said, i dont agree with. Iran is a VERY controversial country, and i dont agree with half the stuff people seem to dig up about it. Lets not all be niave and assume that the Western World, (as it were) is so democratic in its nature too. I mean, a brazilian guy was shot dead for pretty much being suspected of something. We all know that had he been an arab or muslim, then most people would have said, ooh well, he was MORE likely to have been a terrorist, the fact he was a Christian Brazilian was why it was a major embaressment for the government. Since when do we go around shooting people we suspect of being criminals. Suspect being the key word here. Innocent till proven guilty? Hardly.

And...Even in this country, millions of people demonstrated about the war, did the government care? No! The west allows you freedom of speed, but what is the point, when nobody cares what you have to say, even if you are the majority.
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IzakHalevas
11-02-2006, 10:37 PM
In response to the first point. My point is that how can you poke fun at a mass murder, that in the eyes of Iran, never took place. If you dont believe it exists, then you cant cause offence to it. To them, it is like making fun out of the fact that little kids believe in Santa Clause. Im not saying this is my opinion, im merely saying that that is the Iranian opinion on the issue.
Alright, so your point is that because Iran does not believe mass murder of the Jews existed during WWII, then why would they believe it to be insulting when they poke fun at it.... Hmmm.... I guess since the cartoonist didn't believe the prophet to exist or be of any relevance to this earth, is he justified then? Or maybe, the proper thing to do is act with others feelings in mind. If making fun of the Holocaust did not insult Jews heavily, this cartoon contests would not have been on the topic it was on.

I was talking about freedom of press if you bothered to read the rest of my post, where i said that the turkish journalist who said that the armenian genocide happened and was put on trial and the british writer in the netherlands who was imprisoned because he didnt believe the holocaust took place.
Exactly, I was speaking about freedom of the press as well. An Iranian journalist arrested and killed suspiciously because he reports on secret torture prisons is not exactly the model for a country to hold.

The difference is, most of what you say is speculation and a conspiracy theory that in reality probably only stems out of not liking Iran, for whatever reason.
The only thing I dislike is a cartoon contest poking fun at the deaths of others. Obviously your trying to condone the cartoon mimicking Jews deaths because your obvious dislike to wards them. If not, then why else defend Iran, unless you support the cartoonist who draws your prophet?

And if you want to talk specifically about Israel, as it is a 'jewish state', be it an illegal one. If you dont call the censorship of newspapers in Israel on the covering of the Hizbollah-Israeli war, then that just shows an blatent bias in the issue. Im not going to go into the details on this subject because it is going to get off subject, however a quick article can be read by a BBC reporter about the censorship at http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t icleId=2845.
Interesting, an army not wanting media to report on a battle while it is in progress for fear of the media revealing their positions ect, to enemies. If your a novice to understanding a battle, then I assume you would not understand that having a camera show the enemy your movements in battle from the news is not a good strategy to hold.

However, remember when the Mordechai Vanunu told a reporter about Israels nuclear program? How many years was he in jail? The reporter faced charges, and a BBC reporter who interviewed him after his realease was expelled from the country.
Israel put a person who commited treason by revealing state secrets in jail. Iran's official punishment for that sort of treason is death. So who is the harsher when it comes to treason?

Im not having a go at the Jewish faith, nor am i saying that the cartoons were right or wrong. My point is simply that there is a clear double standard in this world, and that if it the weak/less powerful getting trampled in, nobody will take notice until you do something about it.
Oh really?!? The world holds a double standard because a cartoon was made by one artist. In response, Iran creates a state sponsered contest! But Iran does not hold the doubles standard? Crazy... What if Denmark created a cartoon contest to make fun of your prophet? Would Iran use this logic to hate on the Jews more. Hmmm.... Denmark insults your prophet... so you insult Jews... makes sense... What logic! You obviously finished very high in your class!!!!

I think that the cartoons raise a point more than anything. The fact that you are debating this topic, shows this point. You would never be willing to have argued against the Danish cartoons, maybe because you thought it wasnt wrong, but more likely because you didnt care, i dint see why the rest of the world should be expected to care about this either.
Now this is plain funny. I didn't care? Are you a stalker? How do you know that I did not care? I actually felt it was a very insulting cartoon to a lot of people and had no place in a newspaper or anywhere for that matter. The same religion I defended for so long, now advocates attacking my faith, and resorting to "retaliation" by attacking the Jews and insulting a very serious event in their history.

A sad occurence of events.

Iran is a VERY controversial country, and i dont agree with half the stuff people seem to dig up about it. Lets not all be niave and assume that the Western World, (as it were) is so democratic in its nature too.
I never said the west is perfect in democracy, but if you would like to view the amount of freedoms its citizens have compared to governments like and similar to Iran... well... maybe you should save yourself the embrassment, and me the time of compling a very long post full of proofs, facts and statistics (which in nature would save you time from trying to figure out a way to disprove facts.)

And...Even in this country, millions of people demonstrated about the war, did the government care? No! The west allows you freedom of speed, but what is the point, when nobody cares what you have to say, even if you are the majority.
Odd, your assuming that because a certain group protests with millions they are a majority suddenly. If you are refering to Bush, the majority did elect him did they not? In 2008, the majority will again elect a president liberal or conservative. Until then, they elected him agreeing to let him serve 4 years. Therefore, because a certain group advocates leaving Iraq, does that mean the majority does? No.

Yet in Iran, when a student activist protests about secret torture chambers and gets arrested and killed, he isn't even given the right to protest. He is just killed, stripped of his freedom.
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thirdwatch512
11-02-2006, 10:48 PM
i don't think it's right for people top get mad because a few jewish groups signed petitions, because when mohammad was mocked, people were killed for it.. remember that.

and i don't think it's right to justify these horrid paintings.. 6 million innocent people lost their lives. and don't try and compare this to palestine.. because if the palestinians were mocked, i can promise you that there would be outrage. only the palestinians have NOT been mocked.

the mohammad cartoons were bad, yes, we understand, but if making fun of 6 million dead jews ok? no. none of them are. two wrongs don't make a right. we can't just sit here and say it's ok for iran to be doing this.. we should be signing petitions, and protesting at iranian embassies.. just as there were protests at denmakr agencies over the cartoons.

but one thing that you guys need to realize is that these cartoon drawings were spnsered by the iranian GOVERNMENT. but when the danish cartoons came out, it was just one newspaper, and the government immediately condemned it. there is a major difference between having 2 people make some cartoons and post it [just like people make cartoons of bush, and others], then making a museum showing 6 million dea people.

and as for christians who say Jesus is God.. please, don't use this to slam down my religion every ten seconds. i don't believe jesus was god.. he was a prophet. and most of my christian friends believe this too. the only reason people believe in the holy trinity is because the catholic church..
Reply

hakkerz
11-02-2006, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Alright, so your point is that because Iran does not believe mass murder of the Jews existed during WWII, then why would they believe it to be insulting when they poke fun at it.... Hmmm.... I guess since the cartoonist didn't believe the prophet to exist or be of any relevance to this earth, is he justified then? Or maybe, the proper thing to do is act with others feelings in mind. If making fun of the Holocaust did not insult Jews heavily, this cartoon contests would not have been on the topic it was on.



Exactly, I was speaking about freedom of the press as well. An Iranian journalist arrested and killed suspiciously because he reports on secret torture prisons is not exactly the model for a country to hold.



The only thing I dislike is a cartoon contest poking fun at the deaths of others. Obviously your trying to condone the cartoon mimicking Jews deaths because your obvious dislike to wards them. If not, then why else defend Iran, unless you support the cartoonist who draws your prophet?



Interesting, an army not wanting media to report on a battle while it is in progress for fear of the media revealing their positions ect, to enemies. If your a novice to understanding a battle, then I assume you would not understand that having a camera show the enemy your movements in battle from the news is not a good strategy to hold.



Israel put a person who commited treason by revealing state secrets in jail. Iran's official punishment for that sort of treason is death. So who is the harsher when it comes to treason?



Oh really?!? The world holds a double standard because a cartoon was made by one artist. In response, Iran creates a state sponsered contest! But Iran does not hold the doubles standard? Crazy... What if Denmark created a cartoon contest to make fun of your prophet? Would Iran use this logic to hate on the Jews more. Hmmm.... Denmark insults your prophet... so you insult Jews... makes sense... What logic! You obviously finished very high in your class!!!!



Now this is plain funny. I didn't care? Are you a stalker? How do you know that I did not care? I actually felt it was a very insulting cartoon to a lot of people and had no place in a newspaper or anywhere for that matter. The same religion I defended for so long, now advocates attacking my faith, and resorting to "retaliation" by attacking the Jews and insulting a very serious event in their history.

A sad occurence of events.



I never said the west is perfect in democracy, but if you would like to view the amount of freedoms its citizens have compared to governments like and similar to Iran... well... maybe you should save yourself the embrassment, and me the time of compling a very long post full of proofs, facts and statistics (which in nature would save you time from trying to figure out a way to disprove facts.)



Odd, your assuming that because a certain group protests with millions they are a majority suddenly. If you are refering to Bush, the majority did elect him did they not? In 2008, the majority will again elect a president liberal or conservative. Until then, they elected him agreeing to let him serve 4 years. Therefore, because a certain group advocates leaving Iraq, does that mean the majority does? No.

Yet in Iran, when a student activist protests about secret torture chambers and gets arrested and killed, he isn't even given the right to protest. He is just killed, stripped of his freedom.

Comon now. your last post PROVES your OBVIOUS bias and double standards. You see it as treason, yet when Iran tells the world it isnt hiding anything, and invited UN inspectors, and is even going to let tourists view the nuclear sites, yet...no, they are making nuclear weapons. What gives the world the right to stick its nose into Irans buisness, when we havent got the right to know that Israel is producing warheads and arming upto its Teeth.loool

And yes, i do defend the cartoonist who drew the pictures of the Prophet. I think it was wrong in my belief. Yet, we live in a society that says you have freedom of speech, and freedom of press, so ill abide by those laws. I might get offended, i might not like it, but thats it. I wont let my personal feelings be the reason why the rest of the world has to respect my beliefs. Dont respect my beliefs, that has nothing to do with me,.lol..

I was referring to the fact that 50% of people approximately went out to vote in the UK elections. And from that only about 52% voted in labour. That means that a government was voted in by about 25% of the country. Not a majority. So, surely when a couple of million people go out and protest, and the UN says the war was Illegal. The government goes against the advice of its, well..advisors, youd think to yourself, wait a minute, maybe not everybody wants this war.

And your point the Israeli censorship was terrible. Honestly, at least read the source first. It didnt say that the reporters should be allowed access to the IDFs military plans, which were a shambles either way, but whereas all the bombings in lebanon were being shown, everywhere, no censorship. Israel didnt allow its own Haaretz reporters to access areas that had been bombed by the opposition. The point of the article at the end was that Israel didnt want to show the world that in reality, it was losing the war. (Israel's own Defence Minister accepted defeat..)

Have you not heard about the Venezeulan conspiracy by the CIA to get rid of Chavez? If not, that is one of the biggest signs that America is infact controlling its media so well that all you get fed is what it wants you to learn. Have you not heard of the thousands of books that are banned in the US/UK and various other countries in the world? Ok, i just wrote a point out, and deleted it, because i think i know too much, MI6 will be knocking on my door soon. lool. No media censorship?

And funny, you backed up your original conspiracy about activists going into prisons and dying randomly, by another conspiracy, that reporters reporting this incident are also killed, because Iran sees this as treason!?loool..

The point i disagree with the most is that i am against jews in any way. No way. Thats complete rubbish. I have respect for the jewish faith. I respect its prophets, messengers and holy book. This isnt a religious discussion, its a political one. I could just easily say that Iran is an Islamic Republic and therefore you hate it for that reason. Im not basing my ideas on what the Torah says, but rather on the West. Israel isnt a religious state officially, and most Western countries as secular. I honestly dont think this is a religious debate.

Either way, so you dont think im running away from the issue, i really am not into this online debating thing, and i think its pretty useless most of the time, so ill read your next comment, but this is going way off topic, and im not going to continue to argue, especially if you feel that i am doing this out of anti-semitism (despite the fact that that isnt politically correct, because Muslims believe they are semetic also to some extent). You also failed to realise that im not agreeing with the cartoons. I dont think it was the way to go about it, and if you dont like something being done to you, then you shouldnt do it to others just to rub it in. And yeh, like i said, if the cartoonist didnt think that the Prophet (pbuh) existed, fine! im not saying he has to. yet, if we want to apply the freedom of speech/press law universely, that also gives anybody else the right to deny the Hollocaust.

Im trying to get to the fact that. When it is to do with the Hollocaust, you cant have free speech, even when you arent intending to cause offence. I mean if somebody doesnt think the hollocaust happened, why cant he express his views if somebody who wants to mock the prophet of Islam has a right to do that? That, i think shows the obvious double-standards in the World. Islam is in a weak state, so who cares. Jews, relatively, are in a good powereful position (in my opinion), so lets be careful what we say.

Let me repeat it again. I am not saying i agree with Iran on its stance on the Hollocaust. I do not agree with the cartoons on both fronts, personally. I am sincerely sorry if you felt i was attacking your religion, that wasnt my intention, and i know that intention isnt important sometimes if you do end up causing offence, so i am truely sorry.

Take care

Peace.
Reply

IzakHalevas
11-02-2006, 11:53 PM
Comon now. your last post PROVES your OBVIOUS bias and double standards. You see it as treason, yet when Iran tells the world it isnt hiding anything, and invited UN inspectors, and is even going to let tourists view the nuclear sites, yet...no, they are making nuclear weapons. What gives the world the right to stick its nose into Irans buisness, when we havent got the right to know that Israel is producing warheads and arming upto its Teeth.loool

And yes, i do defend the cartoonist who drew the pictures of the Prophet. I think it was wrong in my belief. Yet, we live in a society that says you have freedom of speech, and freedom of press, so ill abide by those laws. I might get offended, i might not like it, but thats it. I wont let my personal feelings be the reason why the rest of the world has to respect my beliefs. Dont respect my beliefs, that has nothing to do with me,.lol..

I was referring to the fact that 50% of people approximately went out to vote in the UK elections. And from that only about 52% voted in labour. That means that a government was voted in by about 25% of the country. Not a majority. So, surely when a couple of million people go out and protest, and the UN says the war was Illegal. The government goes against the advice of its, well..advisors, youd think to yourself, wait a minute, maybe not everybody wants this war.

And your point the Israeli censorship was terrible. Honestly, at least read the source first. It didnt say that the reporters should be allowed access to the IDFs military plans, which were a shambles either way, but whereas all the bombings in lebanon were being shown, everywhere, no censorship. Israel didnt allow its own Haaretz reporters to access areas that had been bombed by the opposition. The point of the article at the end was that Israel didnt want to show the world that in reality, it was losing the war. (Israel's own Defence Minister accepted defeat..)

Great so you have decided to argue that:

  • The cartoonist who poked fun at your prophet was correct because he had freedom of speech, so Iran is correct to make fun of others deaths.
  • The Goverment does not follow the majority because even though they were elected by a majority vote, a bunch of people did not vote at all.
  • Israel censored people during their conflict with Lebanon, but ooops, forgot to mention that they failed to kill any student activists who disagree with their policies. (Oh wait, they let anyone march for what they believe in, unlike Iran.)

Have you not heard about the Venezeulan conspiracy by the CIA to get rid of Chavez? If not, that is one of the biggest signs that America is infact controlling its media so well that all you get fed is what it wants you to learn. Have you not heard of the thousands of books that are banned in the US/UK and various other countries in the world? Ok, i just wrote a point out, and deleted it, because i think i know too much, MI6 will be knocking on my door soon. lool. No media censorship?
The media in the United States and in the Western world works on ratings and they are all privatly owned. They report not in favor of their goverments all the time. They do not brodcast your "conspiracys" because they act on ratings, what people care about. Unlike Iran which controls many of the media there and threatened those that report truth with death.

And funny, you backed up your original conspiracy about activists going into prisons and dying randomly, by another conspiracy, that reporters reporting this incident are also killed, because Iran sees this as treason!?loool..
Wow.

Maybe you do not understand.

When a reporter is arrested because of what he reports and then dies of a "mysterious" cause (the iranian police report) with beating marks over his corpse (the wifes report) It isn't a conspiracy theory. It is using a brain.

When an Iranian scientist tells the media something his goverment deems classified then he can be killed for treason. When an israeli guy does the same he is jailed.

I honestly dont think this is a religious debate.
It is a debate about if a cartoon making fun of six million deaths is apropriate for a goverment run media group to be holding a contest for. A same goverment that supposidly doesn't hate Jews, yet makes fun of their relatives deaths... :?

Either way, so you dont think im running away from the issue, i really am not into this online debating thing, and i think its pretty useless most of the time, so ill read your next comment, but this is going way off topic, and im not going to continue to argue, especially if you feel that i am doing this out of anti-semitism (despite the fact that that isnt politically correct, because Muslims believe they are semetic also to some extent). You also failed to realise that im not agreeing with the cartoons. I dont think it was the way to go about it, and if you dont like something being done to you, then you shouldnt do it to others just to rub it in. And yeh, like i said, if the cartoonist didnt think that the Prophet (pbuh) existed, fine! im not saying he has to. yet, if we want to apply the freedom of speech/press law universely, that also gives anybody else the right to deny the Hollocaust.
Fair enough.


Im trying to get to the fact that. When it is to do with the Hollocaust, you cant have free speech, even when you arent intending to cause offence. I mean if somebody doesnt think the hollocaust happened, why cant he express his views if somebody who wants to mock the prophet of Islam has a right to do that? That, i think shows the obvious double-standards in the World. Islam is in a weak state, so who cares. Jews, relatively, are in a good powereful position (in my opinion), so lets be careful what we say.
What are you talking about?

Just about every nation in the world said that the cartoonist was wrong, and although he has freedom of speech he probably should not have done it. All the Arabs countries are not denouncing Iran like the west denounced the cartoonist. Also, Jews are not setting fires to buildings like Muslims did in response to this, and this holocaust contests is given very little coverage compared to your prophets cartoon.

Peace.
Salaam.:)
Reply

hakkerz
11-03-2006, 12:04 AM
LoL.

Ok, fair enough, difference in opinion. "A human being is either your brother in Islam, or your brother in Humanity."

Peace :)
Reply

Dahir
11-03-2006, 12:14 AM
Whoa! These cartoons are a bit of a stretch.

To question history, like I have before, is fine, but to mock it, in any way, is extremely ignorant -- and especially a dark chapter in history, like the Holocaust.

Wrong. Totally wrong. imsad
Reply

Woodrow
11-03-2006, 12:24 AM
No matter how much we may disagree with their beliefs. We must acknowledge that during the Holocaust many innocent people lost their lives. When just one innocent person is murdered or treated unjustly we all suffer.

We need to always keep the events of the holocaust in our minds as a tragedy for humanity. Failure to see it as the tragedy it was, opens up the opportunity for it to happen again.

For that reason any mockery of the Holocaust should not be condoned by people of any faith.
Reply

hakkerz
11-03-2006, 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
No matter how much we may disagree with their beliefs. We must acknowledge that during the Holocaust many innocent people lost their lives. When just one innocent person is murdered or treated unjustly we all suffer.

We need to always keep the events of the holocaust in our minds as a tragedy for humanity. Failure to see it as the tragedy it was, opens up the opportunity for it to happen again.

For that reason any mockery of the Holocaust should not be condoned by people of any faith.
Just to point out, im not, nor was i condoning it. In the Quran it says, 'And for this reason (in reference to the story of Habel and Cabel), we wrote upon the People of Israel that whomever kills one life for it is as though he has killed the whole of mankind, and whoever saves a life, it is as though he has saved the whole of humanity.'

I was simply trying to show what view Iran held, even if it might have been wrong stance.

Peace
Reply

Joe98
11-03-2006, 02:59 AM
Originally Posted by Ähmed
.......regarding the cartoons made about the Prophet.

Have you seen those cartoons yourself?
Reply

Asyur an-Nagi
11-03-2006, 03:09 AM
i don't utterly agree with both.
Reply

north_malaysian
11-03-2006, 07:40 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
.. 6 million innocent people lost their lives.
Actually 18 million people lost their lives ... ONLY 1/3 are Jews...

So mocking holocaust is not mocking the Jewish community only ... but the whole human race.
Reply

Woodrow
11-03-2006, 07:46 AM
If Hitler had won. Every person living today would have blond hair and blue eyes or would be a fugitive in hiding.
Reply

hakkerz
11-04-2006, 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
If Hitler had won. Every person living today would have blond hair and blue eyes or would be a fugitive in hiding.
Wow, Subhaan Allah. Rothschilds in Europre pre-WW2?, or shall i not go that deep into this?
Reply

Muhammad
11-04-2006, 05:13 PM
:sl:

It is best not to paste or post links to the picture that was drawn, as this is likely to cause offence to our Jewish members here and perhaps others too. If it were the Danish caricatures, any links would not be allowed. Similarly, it is befitting for us to be respectful in this regard.
Reply

blunderbus
11-05-2006, 05:01 AM
Of the two offended groups, the Jews certainly showed more wisdom in their response than did the Muslims.
Reply

GARY
11-05-2006, 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
:sl:

It is best not to paste or post links to the picture that was drawn, as this is likely to cause offence to our Jewish members here and perhaps others too. If it were the Danish caricatures, any links would not be allowed. Similarly, it is befitting for us to be respectful in this regard.
Very respectful Muhammad.

All this cartoon business is really quite stupid. Making offensive cartoons about the muslim prophet. Going beserk about the cartoons and rioting. Holding a contest in retaliation. It's all stupid, just a waste of energy. Cartoons. Silly drawings. Offensive? Sure, maybe. Just silly drawings though. Sticks and stones people, sticks and stones.
Reply

Muezzin
11-05-2006, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
Have you seen those cartoons yourself?
Do you need to see cartoons denying the Holocaust in order to condemn them?

Cartoons like those in the Holocaust Cartoon contest should be criticised on a conceptual level. They are needlessly and deeply offensive to members of the Jewish faith.

Similarly, those Danish cartoons were deeply offensive to members of the Islamic faith. Opening this Holocaust Cartoon Contest is a classic example of two wrongs not making a right.
Reply

north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
:sl:

It is best not to paste or post links to the picture that was drawn, as this is likely to cause offence to our Jewish members here and perhaps others too. If it were the Danish caricatures, any links would not be allowed. Similarly, it is befitting for us to be respectful in this regard.
Good.... mocking holocaust is like mocking humanity...
Reply

S_87
11-06-2006, 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by blunderbus
Of the two offended groups, the Jews certainly showed more wisdom in their response than did the Muslims.
ummm theres a BIG difference between cartoons of a Prophet and cartoon of a holocaust....
Reply

GARY
11-06-2006, 10:57 AM
Originally Posted by amani
ummm theres a BIG difference between cartoons of a Prophet and cartoon of a holocaust....
There certainly is. From the perspective of many, many people the holocaust cartoons are much more offensive.
Reply

S_87
11-06-2006, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by GARY
There certainly is. From the perspective of many, many people the holocaust cartoons are much more offensive.
i dont deny the holocaust cartoons were wrong however you cannot throw petrol on some flames and blame the fire for erupting....
Reply

stannis
11-06-2006, 02:28 PM
What is more offensive, rationally speaking? The insulting of Muhammad, or any prophet, or the insulting of the murders of 6 million innocent people?

If you sit down and think about it?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
11-06-2006, 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by stannis
What is more offensive, rationally speaking? The insulting of Muhammad, or any prophet, or the insulting of the murders of 6 million innocent people?

If you sit down and think about it?
You obviously have no idea how much the Prophet (sal-Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) means to Muslims. I'm not defending the holocaust cartoons, not at all. I think they are disgusting. But you have to be Muslim to understand just how much those cartoons hurt us.

-Peace
Reply

stannis
11-06-2006, 02:44 PM
With respect, Muhammad does not equal 6 million men, women and children.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-06-2006, 02:49 PM
Originally Posted by stannis
With respect, Muhammad does not equal 6 million men, women and children.
Your right. He is worth much much more.
Reply

stannis
11-06-2006, 02:53 PM
So it is alright to kill millions of people, as not making pictures of Muhammad is worth more than human lives?
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
11-06-2006, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by stannis
So it is alright to kill millions of people, as not making pictures of Muhammad is worth more than human lives?
Whoever said that?
Reply

stannis
11-06-2006, 03:03 PM
Many Muslims seem to find the Holocaust cartoons amusing, as a counter-attack on the Danish cartoons and perhaps because they are anti-Jewish. This in itself shows a lack of respect for human life - millions of Jews died, and Muslims are willing to mock that.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
11-06-2006, 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by stannis
Many Muslims seem to find the Holocaust cartoons amusing, as a counter-attack on the Danish cartoons and perhaps because they are anti-Jewish. This in itself shows a lack of respect for human life - millions of Jews died, and Muslims are willing to mock that.
I already told you I thought the cartoons were disgusting, and quite a few people have said this aswell. So please stop generalising.

Anyway, you didn't answer my question. Who said:

it is alright to kill millions of people, as not making pictures of Muhammad is worth more than human lives?
It seems like you just want to keep presenting Muslims in a bad light. So I doubt we'll have a productive discussion.
Reply

stannis
11-06-2006, 03:21 PM
I already told you I thought the cartoons were disgusting, and quite a few people have said this aswell. So please stop generalising.
I apologise for my misconception : embarrass Should have paid more attention.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-06-2006, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by stannis
Many Muslims seem to find the Holocaust cartoons amusing, as a counter-attack on the Danish cartoons and perhaps because they are anti-Jewish. This in itself shows a lack of respect for human life - millions of Jews died, and Muslims are willing to mock that.
You dont understand. I am not in favor of the Holocaust cartoons nor do i support them, but to bellitle our Prophet isnt something nice, even if you say "With respect". So we thank you for your opinion on this matter.

Our opinion is in terms of value, yes we value the life of the Messenger of God over all of humanity and of the entire world and everything in it.

:w:
Reply

GARY
11-06-2006, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Ähmed
Our opinion is in terms of value, yes we value the life of the Messenger of God over all of humanity and of the entire world and everything in it.

:w:
It would seem that you have raised your prophet from being a man to more than man, worthy of worship. Does this please God?
Reply

- Qatada -
11-06-2006, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by GARY
It would seem that you have raised your prophet from being a man to more than man, worthy of worship. Does this please God?

We love the messenger of Allaah, and choose to obey him. We obey him because he brought the message, and if it wasn't for the guidance that he recieved from Allaah - we would be misguided.

We love him for the sake of Allaah, because he brought us closer to Allaah through the message. The love of Allaah is a divine love all muslims should have above anything else, and anything that Allaah sends (i.e. prophets) are all loved for the sake of Allaah and not as equals to Allah. They were the one's whom Allaah loves, and they are those whom Allaah Almighty chose out of His Eternal Wisdom. So we love them purely for the sake of Allaah Almighty.




Peace.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-06-2006, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by GARY
It would seem that you have raised your prophet from being a man to more than man, worthy of worship. Does this please God?
It is ironic that a Christian would accuse a muslim of this when they have raised Jesus from being a man to "more than a man, worthy of worship" as the son of God! God is above all that they ascribe to Him.

Br. Fi Sabillilah has answered your inquiry.

I think this thread has served its purpose, hence

:threadclo
Reply

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