PDA

View Full Version : war against islam or war on terrorism?



Dawud_uk
11-03-2006, 08:12 AM
Assalaamu Alaykum brothers and sisters,

to the non-muslims, peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

Do the members of this forum believe that the West is waging a war against islam or against terrorism?

Bush's recent comments that they are waging a war against people who wish to establish an evil empire from spain to indonesia clearly shows that he is against the implimentation of islam as a complete state system.

he is saying his war is against those who want the kalafate, as such a thing is part of islam then his war is against islam not with any part of it but with islam as a whole.

i have been reading articles from some neo-con think tanks and this is their exact aim, to destroy those who want to re-establish the kalafate so are these people by their words and now not just their actions at war with islam if they were ever anything else before?

what do members think?

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Asyur an-Nagi
11-03-2006, 08:47 AM
yes. especially in Indonesia. you can feel how US have driven the govt's thinking to seek and destroy the people that listed by US as terrorists.
Reply

KAding
11-03-2006, 08:59 AM
It is fighting some interpretations of Islam, yes. What they call the 'extremists' or 'fundamentalists', the revolutionaries if you will. I don't think the US is fighting 'Islam' in general though. The US is actually cooperating with a lot of Muslims in their fight against these people. Lets not forget that most Muslim nations are just as tough on these revolutionaries. And lets not forget that in both the Iraq and Afghanistan invasion the US relied very heavily on local Muslims. Such as the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan and the Sunni Kurds and Shii'tes in Iraq. For you, these collaborating Muslims might be Munafiq. But for non-Muslims these people are just as Muslim as the extremist.
Reply

KAding
11-03-2006, 09:08 AM
I don't think the caliphate as such is a problem for the US. Just like the African Union or the European Union are not considered a threat. But it is certainly the aim of the US to prevent a caliphate from forming based on the political ideology as it is expressed by more fundamentalist Muslims. This ideology runs completely counter to what Americans believe in.

An added factor is that an armed struggle is supposed to create this caliphate, rather than a slow process of political unification. Like I said, they are revolutionaries. And revolutionaries bring instability, which is not what the US wants.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Dawud_uk
11-03-2006, 09:16 AM
i would ask the non-muslims who have just answered my questions whether they feel this idiology of islam as a political as well as a spiritual philosophy is more in tune with what you know of what Muhammad saws brought us or less so?

you see our thoughts are not relevent when placed against a contradictory understanding to our's from the prophet Muhammad saws so if this idea of a whole islamic state covering all the muslim lands is something from Muhammad saws then we will fight for it even if you hate it.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

KAding
11-03-2006, 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i would ask the non-muslims who have just answered my questions whether they feel this idiology of islam as a political as well as a spiritual philosophy is more in tune with what you know of what Muhammad saws brought us or less so?
Actually, to be quite honest. I think the 'fundamentalists' and 'extremists' are actually 'right'. I think they are following the 'true Islam'. Mind you, not all the time. Some of the most brutal stuff done surely can't be 'Islamic'. But nevertheless, I think they are trying hardest to follow your prophet. Mind you that most people around me believe no such thing. They think such an idea - that the Muhajedeen in Iraq of Afghanistan represent 'true' Islam - is in itself extremist. And I have to admit that most Islamophobes in the West follow the same line. But I don't think Bush (let alone Blair) perceives it as such, to them King Abdullah of Jordan is just as much a 'real' Muslim for example. Like I said, I am not convinced this is true. I believe Bin Laden is more 'Islamic' than these 'modern' Muslims. Keep in mind though, for me more 'Islamic' does not mean 'better'. I don't think attempting to install an political system from the 7th century is a particularly good idea.

So, in essence IMHO, the extremists on both sides think this is a battle between the core beliefs of two very different ideologies. That it is a battle between 'Islam' and 'Liberalism/Christianity/Secularism', that the one side is out to destroy and oppress the other. While the moderates on both sides think it is a battle between extremists ;).

you see our thoughts are not relevent when placed against a contradictory understanding to our's from the prophet Muhammad saws so if this idea of a whole islamic state covering all the muslim lands is something from Muhammad saws then we will fight for it even if you hate it.

Abu Abdullah
I agree. The real question is to what extend your fellow Muslims are willing to really fight over this though. If they are willing, I think we're going to have a tough century ahead of us, with much conflict. I'm not so sure though, because I believe most Muslims want stability for their family first. They want to have food on the table and a good job. We'll see though.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-03-2006, 10:02 AM
i honestly dont think any non-muslim will see that its a war on islam, people such as abu talib the prophets uncle are rare, [removed]

:salamext:
Reply

Mr. Baldy
11-03-2006, 11:25 AM
i dont have time to rad all the repsonses, so sorry if this has already been said.

Tony blair called islam 'an evil ideology', george bush called practicing muslims 'islamofacists'... and both have admitted that this is clearly a war on islamic ideaology. really, how can there be any doubt that this is a war on islam.
Reply

Dawud_uk
11-03-2006, 11:41 AM
my own mind is made up, i just think whilst we have so many non-muslims here we have a duty to convince them also about this.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Bittersteel
11-03-2006, 12:22 PM
yep I too am convinced.something like a cold war against Islam,which actually many Non-Muslims admit and approve of.you know,inserting the seed of democracy in the Muslim world.
Reply

KAding
11-03-2006, 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
i dont have time to rad all the repsonses, so sorry if this has already been said.

Tony blair called islam 'an evil ideology', george bush called practicing muslims 'islamofacists'... and both have admitted that this is clearly a war on islamic ideaology. really, how can there be any doubt that this is a war on islam.
Ehm. They have done no such thing. Can you post some links?
Reply

Dawud_uk
11-03-2006, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
yep I too am convinced.something like a cold war against Islam,which actually many Non-Muslims admit and approve of.you know,inserting the seed of democracy in the Muslim world.
assalaamu alaykum,

your point about the cold war is indeed correct, after the fall of communism they feel they need a new enemy so decided on islam and to try to combat the muslims who aim to lift up their brothers and sisters and who condemn the blind following of the western secularists in every matter.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Joe98
11-03-2006, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
......you know,inserting the seed of democracy in the Muslim world.

Yes, this is the goal of George Bush!

But why do you imply this is a bad thing?
Reply

- Qatada -
11-03-2006, 01:13 PM
Islaam is the only ideology which is opposing the western (masonic theme.) Due to this, they wna get rid of it, and promote democracy back in the muslim lands.

If they can promote democracy, the people will start rejecting the muslim forms of law (the Qur'an and Authentic sunnah.) This is why they are trying to promote democracy because if they can do it at a government level, then the whole nation will be affected - so it will be a chain reaction and the countries nearby will fall into the same trap. Like the domino-effect.


When the muslims don't have the Qur'an and Sunnah to stick to, then they won't have any strength, and they will go along with the public and fear disobeying the creation instead of the Creator, Allaah - the Lord of the worlds. This is a big trial from Allaah, and the one's who have stuck to this are the one's being locked up (i.e. brother Awlaki, and other respected muslims.)

We know that there are hadith on they will be a time when holding onto islaam will be like holding onto hot coal. Allaah Almighty know's best, but it seems like this is leading upto these events.


Allaah Almighty know's best.
Reply

Joe98
11-03-2006, 01:21 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
If they can promote democracy, the people will start rejecting the muslim forms of law (the Qur'an and Authentic sunnah.)

And from this we learn that Muslims who move to the West to live, want to destroy democracy.

And of course integrate and be accepted as citizens along the way.
Reply

- Qatada -
11-03-2006, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
And from this we learn that Muslims who move to the West to live, want to destroy democracy.

And of course integrate and be accepted as citizens along the way.

Who said they want to destroy it? Their living here, but i don't see anyone destroying it.


I know lot's of muslims who actually follow islaam and help society compared to the thugs in the street who also live in the same place, but they cause more chaos and disruption.



Peace.
Reply

Woodrow
11-03-2006, 01:45 PM
Mutual fear and distrust is a horrible thing. It becomes very cycler and before long self fulfilling prophecies set in. Muslims see their fears of the West become realities and the Western world see's fears of Islam become realities.

The sad part is it is all unneccessary. The enemies are not each other the enemies are fear, distrust and misunderstanding.

All of us need to learn to act as we would want the other person to act.
Reply

Dawud_uk
11-03-2006, 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
And from this we learn that Muslims who move to the West to live, want to destroy democracy.

And of course integrate and be accepted as citizens along the way.
i didnt move her, i was born here and here i will remain trying to help my fellow man to lift themselves out of the ignorance and filth that is calling itself civilisation in the west.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Bittersteel
11-03-2006, 02:18 PM
But why do you imply this is a bad thing?
coz they will be helping puppet secular states.they already have these puppets so they aren't bothered about democratizing the whole of ME.

I mean Kading ,you and all the Non-Muslims here,will you like Islamists being elected by Muslim populations in Muslim countries?I don't think so.
Reply

Woodrow
11-03-2006, 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
And from this we learn that Muslims who move to the West to live, want to destroy democracy.

And of course integrate and be accepted as citizens along the way.

There are several thousand Muslims that have immigrated to Austin within the past 10 years. My best guess would be at least 6,000 based on the size of the crowds at the 5 Mosques here.


They have shown themselves to be admirable citisens. There have been no anti-American protests. There have been no acts of violence towards non-Muslims.

They are well integrated into Austin life.



They are mostly very highly educated people employed in various professions mostly in the Education and medical fields. Many of those that are not in a professional field are self employed business owners.

I do not believe your statement applies as a generality.
Reply

Dawud_uk
11-03-2006, 02:32 PM
you telling me that several thousand muslims are there and they dont even protest about the killings done in their name?

subhanallah that is a strange thing indeed.
Reply

Woodrow
11-03-2006, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
you telling me that several thousand muslims are there and they dont even protest about the killings done in their name?

subhanallah that is a strange thing indeed.
If there have been any protests I am unaware of them. The Masjid I attend has never made any mention of any upcoming protests. One reason I think is that localy there would be nobody to protest against. There is no reason to believe that the state of Texas is the cause of any actions by the Federal Government.

Texas is very accomadating to immigrants. Our representatives in the senate and congress are very much aware that many Texans are opposed to US involvement in the mid-east. Texas has pretty much of an established history of going in contrast to many of the States.


Our politicians are not blind followers of the doings of Washington DC



Our Congressmen

Barton, Joe, Texas, 6th
Bonilla, Henry, Texas, 23rd
Brady, Kevin, Texas, 8th
Burgess, Michael, Texas, 26th
Carter, John, Texas, 31st
Conaway, K. Michael, Texas, 11th
Cuellar, Henry, Texas, 28th
Culberson, John, Texas, 7th
DeLay, Tom, Texas, 22nd -- Vacancy
Doggett, Lloyd, Texas, 25th
Edwards, Chet, Texas, 17th
Gohmert, Louie, Texas 1st
Gonzalez, Charlie A., Texas, 20th
Granger, Kay, Texas, 12th
Green, Al, Texas, 9th
Green, Gene, Texas, 29th
Hall, Ralph M., Texas, 4th
Hensarling, Jeb, Texas, 5th
Hinojosa, Rubén, Texas, 15th
Jackson Lee, Sheila, Texas, 18th
Johnson, Eddie Bernice, Texas 30th
Johnson, Sam, Texas, 3rd
Marchant, Kenny, Texas, 24th
McCaul, Michael T., Texas, 10th
Neugebauer, Randy, Texas, 19th
Ortiz, Solomon P., Texas, 27th
Paul, Ron, Texas, 14th
Poe, Ted, Texas, 2nd
Reyes, Silvestre, Texas, 16th
Sessions, Pete, Texas, 32nd
Smith, Lamar, Texas, 21st
Thornberry, Mac, Texas, 13th




Our Senators


Cornyn, John- (R - TX) Class II
517 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-2934
Web Form: cornyn.senate.gov/contact/index.html

Hutchison, Kay Bailey- (R - TX) Class I
284 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-5922
Web Form: hutchison.senate.gov/e-mail.htm

I list their names so you can verify that you do not see most of them in the news as Bush Supporters.

Keep in mind much of Texas is closer to the Capitals of Cuba, Belize, Guatamala and Mexico then to the capital of the USA. The people are very well in tune with the picture the world see's of Americans on the whole and we do our best to show that is not what Americans are like.
Reply

MTAFFI
11-03-2006, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
i dont have time to rad all the repsonses, so sorry if this has already been said.

Tony blair called islam 'an evil ideology', george bush called practicing muslims 'islamofacists'... and both have admitted that this is clearly a war on islamic ideaology. really, how can there be any doubt that this is a war on islam.
please provide a source for these statements
Reply

Keltoi
11-03-2006, 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
If there have been any protests I am unaware of them. The Masjid I attend has never made any mention of any upcoming protests. One reason I think is that localy there would be nobody to protest against. There is no reason to believe that the state of Texas is the cause of any actions by the Federal Government.

Texas is very accomadating to immigrants. Our representatives in the senate and congress are very much aware that many Texans are opposed to US involvement in the mid-east. Texas has pretty much of an established history of going in contrast to many of the States.


Our politicians are not blind followers of the doings of Washington DC



Our Congressmen

Barton, Joe, Texas, 6th
Bonilla, Henry, Texas, 23rd
Brady, Kevin, Texas, 8th
Burgess, Michael, Texas, 26th
Carter, John, Texas, 31st
Conaway, K. Michael, Texas, 11th
Cuellar, Henry, Texas, 28th
Culberson, John, Texas, 7th
DeLay, Tom, Texas, 22nd -- Vacancy
Doggett, Lloyd, Texas, 25th
Edwards, Chet, Texas, 17th
Gohmert, Louie, Texas 1st
Gonzalez, Charlie A., Texas, 20th
Granger, Kay, Texas, 12th
Green, Al, Texas, 9th
Green, Gene, Texas, 29th
Hall, Ralph M., Texas, 4th
Hensarling, Jeb, Texas, 5th
Hinojosa, Rubén, Texas, 15th
Jackson Lee, Sheila, Texas, 18th
Johnson, Eddie Bernice, Texas 30th
Johnson, Sam, Texas, 3rd
Marchant, Kenny, Texas, 24th
McCaul, Michael T., Texas, 10th
Neugebauer, Randy, Texas, 19th
Ortiz, Solomon P., Texas, 27th
Paul, Ron, Texas, 14th
Poe, Ted, Texas, 2nd
Reyes, Silvestre, Texas, 16th
Sessions, Pete, Texas, 32nd
Smith, Lamar, Texas, 21st
Thornberry, Mac, Texas, 13th




Our Senators


Cornyn, John- (R - TX) Class II
517 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-2934
Web Form: cornyn.senate.gov/contact/index.html

Hutchison, Kay Bailey- (R - TX) Class I
284 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-5922
Web Form: hutchison.senate.gov/e-mail.htm

I list their names so you can verify that you do not see most of them in the news as Bush Supporters.

Keep in mind much of Texas is closer to the Capitals of Cuba, Belize, Guatamala and Mexico then to the capital of the USA. The people are very well in tune with the picture the world see's of Americans on the whole and we do our best to show that is not what Americans are like.
I don't know that I would say "much" of Texas is closer to the capitals of Cuba, Belize, etc. Texas is a very patriotic and pro-military state. Most of Texas is not that much different that Oklahoma, Kansas, or New Mexico. There are many immigrants in Texas, and that is obviously going to have an impact on the political dynamics of the major cities, especially Austin, which is known to be the most liberal city in Texas.
By the way, what is the deal with Joe Barton and why is Don Imus attacking him constantly? Something to do with autism legislation I believe, but I don't know the details.
Reply

MTAFFI
11-03-2006, 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i didnt move her, i was born here and here i will remain trying to help my fellow man to lift themselves out of the ignorance and filth that is calling itself civilisation in the west.

Abu Abdullah
why make such statements about the west? Have you ever been to America and lived here for a while? If so you would know already that this is no war against Islam at all. If anything it is these Islamic extremist that have waged a war against the west for what they consider our "ignorance and filth". If enough people want an Islamic state than they will have one, and you know what? The people who dont want it can just leave and live somewhere in a country they support. No one cares about what your religion is in the west, no one cares about your own ideologies or beliefs. "You live your life and i will live mine" is the mindset. This is not ignorance, it is actually quite the opposite, it is an understanding of other people cultures. Agree or disagree with them. Regarding your original post though, this is not a war against Islam, it is a war against extremist who have a distorted perception of Islam and use it as a cloak to get people like you on their side. If everyone could just realize that it isnt right to blow yourself up or other people or cars, etc. and kill indiscriminately, the war would probably already be over. The extremist would have no backing and therefore the world would come down on them, but as long as people believe that there is this "grand conspiracy" against Islam or for oil or control of land or whatever, the war will never be over, and your kids and mine will live and die in it, just like you and I probably eventually will. Because i can tell you now neither side of this will ever give up. America doesnt lose wars
Reply

MTAFFI
11-03-2006, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
I mean Kading ,you and all the Non-Muslims here,will you like Islamists being elected by Muslim populations in Muslim countries?I don't think so.
sorry to butt in but why would we care if a muslim state elected a muslim leader. If i am not mistaken we the US may have a muslim in the senate this year
Reply

MTAFFI
11-03-2006, 03:38 PM
i dont agree with it either, i have met alot of muslims in the last months, and i am in charlotte nc and they also are very well educated and have no problems with our government or way of life
Reply

Woodrow
11-03-2006, 03:49 PM
Yes Texas is very Patriotic. And very Military oriented. Keep in mind not only US troops have been trained in Texas. Many of the Saudi, Turkish and Moroccan Air Force Pilots were trained here. Back in the 60's much of Iran and Iraq's Military also received training here. In the 50s when I was in flight school we also had cadets from Viet-nam, Thailand and Malaysia

Austin is probably the most open minded Texas city. We refuse to claim Dallas those people are misplaced Yankees.


But, historicaly it was not that long ago that Texas won it's independance. Plus with our huge diverse population, much of it immigrants, Texas is very understanding of fair play and does not cater to any bullying even if it is by Washington DC.

About Joe Barton and Don Imus I am not too certain as to why Don is after Joe. The Autism funding bill is the issue, but it seems to be more of a personal thing they are making public.

Actually it is much of Texas that is closer to those capitals than to DC. That is Texas south of Austin. Then again keep in mind Dallas is closer to Chicago Illinois then it is to El Paso Texas. It is a long trip from the southernmost part of Texas to the Northern most part.

Although I like to brag about Texas. Every State is very Unique. I believe that is a concept many non-Americans do not understand. There is probably more differences between people from California and Arkansas than there is say between People from the UK and Turkey.

actually it is probably because of this diversity so many people from other nations choose to come to the US. It is possible to find an area very similar to any other country in terms of scenery, language and political views.

A lot of this I mention to show that each state is very independent and what happens in Washington is not necessarly the official view of each state. Our political system in washington reflects the views of the majority of the people and not all of the people. What keeps the US from being 50 seperate countries is the fact that all fifty states will come to the aid of any one state.
Reply

Dawud_uk
11-03-2006, 03:55 PM
i am from yorkshire which is also very independent minded and like to think of themselves as unique.

however that means we just use every opportunity we get to tell the govt how crap a job they are doing and that includes killing lots of my brothers and sisters in iraq and afghanistan.

i dont know how i would stand in front of Allah and say i had the opportunity to at least speak against this evil and didnt bother doing so, subhanallah it is a strange thing that others dont feel the same way.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Keltoi
11-03-2006, 04:11 PM
As for Dallas being Yankees...I don't know about that, but I know the majority of them can't seem to follow simple traffic rules. Worst place to drive to work in America.
Reply

Woodrow
11-03-2006, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i am from yorkshire which is also very independent minded and like to think of themselves as unique.

however that means we just use every opportunity we get to tell the govt how crap a job they are doing and that includes killing lots of my brothers and sisters in iraq and afghanistan.

i dont know how i would stand in front of Allah and say i had the opportunity to at least speak against this evil and didnt bother doing so, subhanallah it is a strange thing that others dont feel the same way.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Sometimes the strong protest is the one that is least like a protest.


The people here are opposed to the killing of Muslims, not because Muslims are out in the street brandishing banners and placards, but because Muslims are showing a visible attitude of peace and justice. To take to the streets in demonstrations would not show the injustice being done to innocent people, it would be a sign of the alleged volitity and instability of Muslims. In this area that type of protest would not only be counter productive it would more likely instigate justification for more killing.

It is not wise to stage a protest that can be seen as a condemnation of the very people who are in agreement with you. It is far more effective that people reach the conclusion of injustice based on what they see, not on what is being shouted at them.

We do protest, but not in the sense of taking to the streets as we would only be seen by the people that are already in agreement. Our protests take the form of living as Muslims. Treating all people fairly and letting people know that Muslims are Human too.

Perhaps that approach would not work were you live, but it works here and a fringe benefit is the reverts are on an almost daily bases. 15 years ago one Mosque in Austin was too big for the Muslim population today 5 are not enough. The 2 largest ones are in huge expansion projects right now. All of this growth is not just due to more immigrants it also reflects the number of Austinites that are reverting.
Reply

Woodrow
11-03-2006, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
As for Dallas being Yankees...I don't know about that, but I know the majority of them can't seem to follow simple traffic rules. Worst place to drive to work in America.
The Yankee part might be a bit extreme. It isn't their fault they "tawk lik N'yorkers"

You are right about the driving there. My oldest Daughter lives in Dallas, an I will not drive in Dallas.


Dallas also has a large Muslim poplation in the Garland area. They are a bit isolated from much of Dallas and they do have some problems there. Dallas is not as acceptive of Muslims as Austin is. Although the over all population of Austin is probably one tenth the population of Dallas I believe more Muslims live in Austin, for that reason. Houston probably has the largest Muslim Population in Texas. However, nearly all of the Muslims there are South of the NASA Space center. There seems to be very little intermingling. The Muslim community there seems to be very self sustaing and not dependent on Houston Jobs, although Many do work at the Space Center or as Cty Employees.
Reply

Rou
11-03-2006, 10:02 PM
Wether the war is aimed at power and money or the destruction of a people the war is hurting the followers of islam therefore the aim may be whatever they wish there words may say what they will but this war affects mainly the followers of the quran therefore its is a war on islam one way or another...
Reply

Bittersteel
11-05-2006, 08:26 AM
sorry to butt in but why would we care if a muslim state elected a muslim leader.
well you see you may not care but some western governments do care.
Reply

GARY
11-05-2006, 08:54 AM
I don't know what Bush's intentions are, but I am not fond of the idea that was suggested of islam taking control of vaste areas of the earth. I am not fond of any group setting up any kind of "empire" for that matter. I will fight and oppose this whether it be islam, multi-national corportations, or any other.
Reply

Ahmed
11-30-2006, 04:51 PM
The muslims need to wake up !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hellooooooooooo


Peace!!!!!!!!
Reply

Ahmed
11-30-2006, 04:54 PM
This is war against Islam clearlyy

It has always been from the beginning of Islam

Wake up fellow muslims or so called muslim speaking for the muslim community.

I am not extremist or any like that but i have my eye open

Peaceeeee
Reply

Keltoi
11-30-2006, 05:10 PM
Who is the larger threat to Islam? Those who commit terrorist atrocities in the name of Islam and Jihad and by effect bring the military wrath of the largest military power in the world down upon the countries they inhabit? Or the world powers who are forced to react to obvious provocation? I'm not talking about Iraq here, that was a war of choice by President Bush and had nothing to do with the War on Terror...at least in hindsight. What we are all really talking about is the War on Terror and language used by some American and British politicians. I don't believe Blair ever said Islam was "an evil ideology"...I'm sure he said the terrorists have an evil ideology. Bush didn't call practicing Muslims "Islamofascists"...he described the ideology of the terrorist enemy. There seems to be a concerted effort by many Muslims to create a War on Islam, and many of these include terrorists.
Reply

Skillganon
11-30-2006, 05:23 PM
The largest threat to Islam is the non-islamic ideology that is trying to be pushed and implemented amongst the muslim land under guise of Democracy.

Don't worry brother Dawud I agree with you..
Reply

Woodrow
11-30-2006, 06:01 PM
I often here the idea that it is a "War against Islam" but that is usually from people that live outside the US and outside the mideastern countries most affected,

The many Iranian Immigrants that live here in the US do not see it as a war on Islam. The same goes for those from Iraq and Afghanistan.

It seems to be paradoxal that so many Muslims from those countries are migrating to the US, if the war really is against Islam and not against terrorists.

Some Immigration facts:

Socioeconomic Overview of Foreign-Born Iranians in the United States:
Three in every five Iranian immigrants were naturalized US citizens.
Over 90 percent of the Iranian foreign born spoke a language other than English at home.
The majority of the Iranian born had a bachelor's degree or higher.
Nearly two-thirds of the Iranian foreign born participated in the labor force.
More than half of the Iranian immigrant population were employed in management, professional, and related occupations.
The self-employment rate of the Iranian foreign born was almost double the rate for the total foreign-born population.
In 2000, the median income for Iranian-born males and females who were full-time, year-round workers was $52,333 and $36,422, respectively.
Over half of all Iranian immigrants lived in the state of California in 2000.
While all 50 states received Iranian immigrants according to Census 2000, 55.9 percent (158,613) lived in California. The states with the next-largest Iranian immigrant populations were New York (17,323 or 6.1 percent), Texas (15,581 or 5.5 percent), Virginia (10,889 or 3.8 percent), and Maryland (9,733 or 3.4 percent).



The metropolitan areas with the most Iranian immigrants were Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York City, and the Washington, DC-Baltimore metropolitan area.
In 2000, 41 percent (114,712) of the Iranian foreign born resided in Los Angeles-Riverside-Orange County, 10 percent (27,112) in San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, eight percent (21,971) in New York City, and seven percent (19,726) in the Washington, DC-Baltimore metropolitan area. The next three largest destinations were San Diego (7,675), Dallas (6,376), and Houston (6,287), respectively.
At the Present time Iranians migrate to the US at the rate of 5,000 per year. Another 15,000 enter as non-immigrants and intend to return to Iran.

Source: http://www.migrationinformation.org/Refugees/

I emphasised Iran because that was the country I could find the most Accurate information about.

However there are many Muslims immigrating from other countries to here:

The most recent figures of Muslim immigrants in the US are:

The First number is in thousands, the second number is percentage of Muslims in US.

So the South Asians are 1,220,000 and mke up 24.4% of the Muslim immigrants to the US

South Asians 1,220 24.4 South-Asians: Those of Indian/Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, or Afghan descent now residing in the United States as citizens or permanent residents.

Arabs 620 12.4 Arabs: People from Arabic-speaking countries of the Middle East and North Africa who are permanent residents or citizens of the United States.

Africans 260 5.2 Africans: People from the African continent who are citizens or permanent residents of the United States

Iranians 180 3.6 Iranians: People of Persian descent, usually from Iran, who are citizens or permanent residents.

Turks 120 2.4 Turkish: People of Turkish descent who are citizens ro permanent residents.

South East Asians 100 2.0 South East Asians: People of Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Indochina, or the Phillippines.

Source: http://www.islam101.com/history/population2_usa.html

Those people that are coming to the US from Islamic Nations do not believe the War is a War against Islam

Yes, we did make a huge mistake in Iraq and yes our President is a very poor speaker and he has no idea what he is saying. His words even shock most Americans. To be honest when I listen to the little shrub talking I understand why so many non-Americans believe America is waging war on Islam.
Reply

Skillganon
11-30-2006, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Those people that are coming to the US from Islamic Nations do not believe the War is a War against Islam.
How could they view something that they don't know off. If one don't know some aspect of Islam than one won't see where this aspect is been trying to be undermined.
Another thing is if one don't know about the mode of action being used to remove, or frohibit some aspect of Islam than it may very well they will not see it.

When I am using the word "War" I mean social, political and physical action.

I am in the view, nor under any delusion that their is considerable effort politically, socially, economically, and physically via within or outside, to undermine Islam by removing the bed-rock of it.

They will very much like to push Islam or reduce the Islam to a religion that is a lot of sufi-hogwash shoved in the closest. Which will not oppose their politically, economical or what ever sphere that serves their interest.
Reply

Mateen
11-30-2006, 06:28 PM
Assalam-o-alaikum

In general East thinks USA is the enemy and west feels Islam is. Both are wrong.

For all that is happening we Muslims are responsible.

Yes Islam is the fastest growing Religion. Yes Islam is a peace loving religion. But also see the way it is perceived today.

Remember the last sermon of our prophet Muhammad{pbuh} where he says O muslims do not harm anyone so that nobody shall harm you.

The world is getting a very different view of Islam, thanks to the radical group.

We Muslims are the first in line if someone says something against Islam but what about our reactions when someone kills innocents in the name of Islam? We also should punish such people but we dont have a Kalif and so no one to hold an Islamic Ruling in cases.

Innocent killing is haram. Even if some non-muslim kills an innocent Allah says as to what is wrong with us muslims that we do not fight for the weak.

But when Muslims in the name of Islam does such an act our reaction must be more strong.

The world is fearing a big threat from Islam.
They get the picture of someone like a very radical believer who would be our Kalif. They are not shown the real picture.

On one hand we should help our brothers and sisters in Palestine but on the other hand we should take out marches, hold meetings not only with non-muslims but also with our muslim brothers who have misinterpreted Jihad.

If we cannot clarify Islam's stand, work against wrongdoings in the name of Islam, then we should not blame anyone but ourselves when we slowly one after another lose whole Middle East and beyond.

Wassalam.
Reply

Woodrow
11-30-2006, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
How could they view something that they don't know off. If one don't know some aspect of Islam than one won't see where this aspect is been trying to be undermined.
Another thing is if one don't know about the mode of action being used to remove, or frohibit some aspect of Islam than it may very well they will not see it.

When I am using the word "War" I mean social, political and physical action.

I am in the view, nor under any delusion that their is considerable effort politically, socially, economically, and physically via within or outside, to undermine Islam by removing the bed-rock of it.

They will very much like to push Islam or reduce the Islam to a religion that is a lot of sufi-hogwash shoved in the closest. Which will not oppose their politically, economical or what ever sphere that serves their interest.
I can understand and appreciate your fears. However, I do not see them coming to pass here. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US and the majority of our Imans are from Islamic countries. I have yet to see any attempt to stifle Islam by any Government forces. The migrant Muslims are generaly very well accepted and there presence seems to be having more affect on American Culture than American Culture is having on Islam.

At the moment we have something like 100,000 American troops in Iraq. But, do you know there are now 360,000 Iraqis living in the US. An outside observer would come to the conclusion that Iraq is invading the US.


Where the most expatriates live
Largest Iraqi expatriate populations among the 14 nations that will hold expatriate voting for the Jan. 30 elections, and the estimated number of eligible voters:
Iraqi population Eligible to vote
Syria 500,000 250,000
Jordan 450,000 180,000
USA 360,000 230,000 United Kingdom 250,000 150,000
Iran 135,000 81,000
Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...raqis-us_x.htm

From what I see localy, Islam is having a much stronger influence on America than America is having on Islam. Much of this is from foreign born Muslims from countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Irag, even Palestinians. In Tyler Texas there is now a large immigrant Palestinian population and they have established two very large Masjids and have won over many reverts from the local population.

Halal food is now becoming more common in the US. Laws about drunkeness are being passed and strongly enforced. Every place you look in America you will see influence from the noble Muslim immigrants who are here living as true Muslims and allowing us to learn the truth.

The University of Texas now has an Islamic Department that is even teaching Qur'anic studies and the Dept. is headed and run by Islamic Scholars, not trained native born Americans.
Reply

Skillganon
11-30-2006, 07:09 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I can understand and appreciate your fears. However, I do not see them coming to pass here. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US and the majority of our Imans are from Islamic countries. I have yet to see any attempt to stifle Islam by any Government forces. The migrant Muslims are generaly very well accepted and there presence seems to be having more affect on American Culture than American Culture is having on Islam.
I am not talking about Muslim in america practicing Islam to the point that is permissable. Obviousely if one is talking about "ISLAM" in america which at this point their is no such thing and in other muslim countries their is not such thing ISLAM hence a state that implement ISLAM.

I am talking about other countries which their is a considerable efforts by western goverment to abolish atleast parts of Islam that is oppose to their interest.


At the moment we have something like 100,000 American troops in Iraq. But, do you know there are now 360,000 Iraqis living in the US. An outside observer would come to the conclusion that Iraq is invading the US.
With what Bombs missiles, guns? I do not care if their is Iraqis living in the US. The geographical area called Iraq, is not US.



Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...raqis-us_x.htm

From what I see localy, Islam is having a much stronger influence on America than America is having on Islam. Much of this is from foreign born Muslims from countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Irag, even Palestinians. In Tyler Texas there is now a large immigrant Palestinian population and they have established two very large Masjids and have won over many reverts from the local population.

Halal food is now becoming more common in the US. Laws about drunkeness are being passed and strongly enforced. Every place you look in America you will see influence from the noble Muslim immigrants who are here living as true Muslims and allowing us to learn the truth.

The University of Texas now has an Islamic Department that is even teaching Qur'anic studies and the Dept. is headed and run by Islamic Scholars, not trained native born Americans.
Masshallah their are practicing muslim and are very good Daee. It's their obligation & to deliver the message.

What is happening in one's own home does not make it ok, of what's happening in other countries.
Reply

Woodrow
11-30-2006, 07:26 PM
Most American GI's do not want to be in Iraq. The majority of the American people do not want us there either. The war in Iraq is also hurting Americans, not physicaly but economicaly it is a waste of money and moraly wrong.

I doubt if very many Americans have any desire to stifle Islam. If there is a bad influence from the western world the influence is the result of economics and not any public agenda. Big Business has more influence over the Western World than any political agenda. In the world of business if it creates profit it is nutured, if it is not cost effective it is allowed to wither or is removed. Big Business is the Culprit in my view not Western people.

The largest money makers in recorded history are war and immorality. Business seems to be geared towards them and big business is international, it has no homeland or any home culture. It exists where ever there are people willing to invest money into things simply for the promise of fast profit.

This promise of fast profit is what I see as the entity that is waging war against Islam. Yes, there are big money investors from every nation. Something like 1/4 to 1/3 of all American businesses are now owned by non-Americans. Most of those are the haram businesses such as Alcohol production and pornography.
Reply

Skillganon
11-30-2006, 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Most American GI's do not want to be in Iraq. The majority of the American people do not want us there either. The war in Iraq is also hurting Americans, not physicaly but economicaly it is a waste of money and moraly wrong.

I doubt if very many Americans have any desire to stifle Islam. If there is a bad influence from the western world the influence is the result of economics and not any public agenda. Big Business has more influence over the Western World than any political agenda. In the world of business if it creates profit it is nutured, if it is not cost effective it is allowed to wither or is removed. Big Business is the Culprit in my view not Western people.

The largest money makers in recorded history are war and immorality. Business seems to be geared towards them and big business is international, it has no homeland or any home culture. It exists where ever there are people willing to invest money into things simply for the promise of fast profit.

This promise of fast profit is what I see as the entity that is waging war against Islam. Yes, there are big money investors from every nation. Something like 1/4 to 1/3 of all American businesses are now owned by non-Americans. Most of those are the haram businesses such as Alcohol production and pornography.
You have to really distinguish between different people in america and their views and America in the social, political, economical interest in other countries hence ther affiliation with corporate. The Democratical process are very well and influence by the corporates. When I am talk about just America, and not their allies, is soley is because they are on the fore-front.

You can read Noam Chomksy, he has interesting book's on some aspect of America (by the way he is an american).

On the point of "Iraq is hurting America economically", is actually hurting the cattles economically, you are the one actually paying the tax for destroying Iraq and paying the corporate for rebuilding with obviousely profit on the agenda. Long-term it "might" serve the economy of the country or atleast make the corporate a bit richer (good-investment) something that may be morally wrong but is totally rational.
I am sure the strategy of Iraq has not exactly gone as to planned but it does not negate that it was done for their interest in view. What ever the mode of sphere that take to serve their interest.

Islam as an ideology is very well opposed to their ideology.
Reply

Woodrow
11-30-2006, 08:01 PM
I can not find any fault in your points. I am certain you have many valid reasons for them. I just want to point out that the vast majority of the Western People have no desire to harm Islam.

In regards to your last paragraph.

On the point of "Iraq is hurting America economically", is actually hurting the cattles economically, you are the one actually paying the tax for destroying Iraq and paying the corporate for rebuilding with obviousely profit on the agenda. Long-term it "might" serve the economy of the country or atleast make the corporate a bit richer (good-investment) something that may be morally wrong but is totally rational.
I am sure the strategy of Iraq has not exactly gone as to planned but it does not negate that it was done for their interest in view.
I agree fully with that and I know I am fed up with it. I am certain the average tax payer also is. At the moment I do not see any way out that will not cause more harm to Iraq. The people of Iraq have suffered needlessly for too long.
Reply

Keltoi
11-30-2006, 08:09 PM
Woodrow brought up a good point which is the effect of multinational corporations on America and everywhere else around the globe. Many people from less developed countries who don't really have a grasp on the free market economic system assume that it is American "colonialism" that is spreading around the globe, when in fact it is the world economy at work. Richard Nixon once described the U.S. system as a wild animal that one could only attempt to control, the same could be said for multinational corporations.
Reply

Woodrow
11-30-2006, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Woodrow brought up a good point which is the effect of multinational corporations on America and everywhere else around the globe. Many people from less developed countries who don't really have a grasp on the free market economic system assume that it is American "colonialism" that is spreading around the globe, when in fact it is the world economy at work. Richard Nixon once described the U.S. system as a wild animal that one could only attempt to control, the same could be said for multinational corporations.
There is no control over mulinational corporations at the present time. I doubt if anybody has any viable plan as to how they can be controled. How do you control something that is not centralized and can exist with no central control. The only control is profit and the lose of profit. Most successfull multinational corporations exist because at least one branch provides a need such as food or clothing while other portions provide high profits by simply operating in areas they are accepted.

Does a Muslim stop buying wheat because the wheat production is also used to produce beer. It is a complex issue. Us Muslims actually help support the beer industry because we buy wheat which in turn helps support the wheat industry which provides wheat for beer production. Something like 85% of the wheat consumed in the Mid East comes from Canada, which also produces most of the grain for beer.

Russia which is the worlds second largest wheat producer keeps most of it for domestic usage and is not a major exporter.


Sorry for the wheat rant, just trying to illustrate the complexities of multinational corpoations.
Reply

Islamicboy
11-30-2006, 09:03 PM
Joe < Muslims cannot live in a non muslim country. This is agiasnt islam living in a non muslim country.

Also war on terror doesnt make sense. This war is really agiasnt islam. You can actually watch all the video clips from youtube or pictures that come out. Also watch an ex gitmo detainee he says how the soldiers as a tactic of torture tore Quran and did digusting things to it. But this war is not the war people may think. When i say war on islam i mean war on islam they dont care too much for secular muslims. Or muslims who follow half of islam and willing to change it with society. This war is directed towards those who implement Shariah and follow Quran & Sunnah of Prophet Muhammed S.A.W. Because of this war many muslims have been confused as the muslim countries removed the scholars of truth and put out fake scholars. All they do is lie so they can receieve a huge pay check in mail.
Reply

arabiyyah
11-30-2006, 09:05 PM
This is agiasnt islam living in a non muslim country.
where does it say that? and if so, does that mean muslim majority or sharia run because there is no country truly run by sharia!
Reply

Keltoi
11-30-2006, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Joe < Muslims cannot live in a non muslim country. This is agiasnt islam living in a non muslim country.

Also war on terror doesnt make sense. This war is really agiasnt islam. You can actually watch all the video clips from youtube or pictures that come out. Also watch an ex gitmo detainee he says how the soldiers as a tactic of torture tore Quran and did digusting to it. But this war is not the war people may think. When i say war on islam i mean war on islam they dont care too much for secular muslims. Or muslims who follow half of islam and willing to change it with society. This war is directed towards those who implement Shariah and follow Quran & Sunnah of Prophet Muhammed S.A.W. Because of this war many muslims have been confused as the muslim countries removed the scholars of truth and put out fake scholars. All they do is lie so they can receieve a huge pay check in mail.
Aww..so all the Muslims that live in the West and prosper aren't really Muslims. I suppose the only "true" Muslims are those who set off car bombs? That is the only thing I can deduce from your post.
Reply

Woodrow
11-30-2006, 09:11 PM
All countries that are majority Muslim became majority Muslim because Muslims chose to live in non-Muslim countries. Remember less then 1400 years ago, there was no country that was Majority Muslim. and countries such as Indonesia and Pakistan only became Muslim majority in the past couple hundred of years.
Reply

Islamicboy
11-30-2006, 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by arabiyyah
where does it say that? and if so, does that mean muslim majority or sharia run because there is no country truly run by sharia!
You cannot live among the non muslims as they will corrupt you. I am not in the position as i live in a non muslim country. But inshallah i plan on moving soon after my parents agree. We muslims should be living among muslims the only time you can live with non muslims is when you are giving dawah.
Reply

Islamicboy
11-30-2006, 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
All countries that are majority Muslim became majority Muslim because Muslims chose to live in non-Muslim countries. Remember less then 1400 years ago, there was no country that was Majority Muslim. and countries such as Indonesia and Pakistan only became Muslim majority in the past couple hundred of years.
Then why do scholars such as bilal Phillips and others discourage us from living in a non muslim country or society?
Reply

arabiyyah
11-30-2006, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
You cannot live among the non muslims as they will corrupt you. I am not in the position as i live in a non muslim country. But inshallah i plan on moving soon after my parents agree. We muslims should be living among muslims the only time you can live with non muslims is when you are giving dawah.
does it say this in the quran or hadith?
Reply

Keltoi
11-30-2006, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
All countries that are majority Muslim became majority Muslim because Muslims chose to live in non-Muslim countries. Remember less then 1400 years ago, there was no country that was Majority Muslim. and countries such as Indonesia and Pakistan only became Muslim majority in the past couple hundred of years.
I find that somewhat disconcerting. Are you trying to imply that the only reason a Muslim should live in a non-Muslim country is to somehow become a majority? If the United States became a majority Muslim country do you think it would still be the United States, with all the liberties included in the American constitution? I'm not trying to be combative about some hypothetical Muslim statistic in the U.S., simply trying to understand if that is why you think Muslims should live in the West.
Reply

Islamicboy
11-30-2006, 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Aww..so all the Muslims that live in the West and prosper aren't really Muslims. I suppose the only "true" Muslims are those who set off car bombs? That is the only thing I can deduce from your post.
I never said true muslim is he who blows himself. Taliban alhumdillah is pure muslim country. I never said muslims living in the west are not muslims.
Reply

aamirsaab
11-30-2006, 09:16 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Sorry for the wheat rant, just trying to illustrate the complexities of multinational corpoations.
It's ok, I've only started 5 boycotts against weatabix. We'll get them one day.

Originally Posted by Keltoi
Aww..so all the Muslims that live in the West and prosper aren't really Muslims. I suppose the only "true" Muslims are those who set off car bombs? That is the only thing I can deduce from your post
Believe me, it's always worse when you're the same religion as the culprit.

Reeling it back on topic: I believe some people percieve it is a war on Islam, infact this is an idea shared commonly with non-muslims (I've seen enough comments on just this one day to validate that claim, a simple yahoo message board such on "veils" will reveal a whole lot of ignorance).

Also, at times it seems as certain people are using terrorism to justify slaughtering muslims and defacing Islam, though this is often referred to as liberating or collateral damage. This is more hurtful than any physical damage as it puts muslims into a corner, in which they are allowed only to 'take it' - if a comment is so much as thought of, that muslim is pounced on and Islam takes another blow from the ignorants of society.

I'm beginning to think, increasingly, that the mere threat of Islam, or rather perceived threat, is driving manking against its very nature.
Reply

Islamicboy
11-30-2006, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by arabiyyah
does it say this in the quran or hadith?
I am sure you can find a thread on this forum :)
Reply

arabiyyah
11-30-2006, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
I am sure you can find a thread on this forum :)
how? there are a lot of threads, :D ;D ;D :okay:
Reply

Keltoi
11-30-2006, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

It's ok, I've only started 5 boycotts against weatabix. We'll get them one day.


Believe me, it's always worse when you're the same religion as the culprit.

Reeling it back on topic: I believe some people percieve it is a war on Islam, infact this is an idea shared commonly with non-muslims (I've seen enough comments on just this one day to validate that claim, a simple yahoo message board such on "veils" will reveal a whole lot of ignorance).

Also, at times it seems as certain people are using terrorism to justify slaughtering muslims and defacing Islam, though this is often referred to as liberating or collateral damage. This is more hurtful than any physical damage as it puts muslims into a corner, in which they are allowed only to 'take it' - if a comment is so much as thought of, that muslim is pounced on and Islam takes another blow from the ignorants of society.

I'm beginning to think, increasingly, that the mere threat of Islam, or rather perceived threat, is driving manking against its very nature.
The question isn't whether some people living in the West are "ignorant" or "paranoid" about the threat Islam faces, but whether there is some mass effort to war against the religion of Islam. I just don't see how you can factually back up that assertion. Yes, many in the West are not friends of Islam and never will be, just as many living in Muslim countries are not friends of the West and never will be. That doesn't equate to a wholesale war on Islam. The Crusades weren't even "wars on Islam". That is the closest thing to a War on Islam that has ever occurred, and religion plays no part in this from the Western side, only from the side of the enemy, who happen to put Islam right in the middle.
Reply

Woodrow
11-30-2006, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Then why do scholars such as bilal Phillips and others discourage us from living in a non muslim country or society?
discourage is a long way from compel. It is also sort of odd that He chooses to live in the Phillipines a Christian Country and left Saudi Arabia after only 3 years. If he truly means Muslims can not live in a Non-Muslim country. Also the Phillipines is a US territory and at any time the people can vote for full US statehood

It would be great if we all could live in an Islamic country. And it is correct we should avoid the influences of Non-Islamic society.

However, the simple facts are, there is insufficient space in all of the Islamic countries combined to hold 1.8 billion people. Next if all Muslims lived in a Muslim Country. The word of Allah(swt) would never be heard by most of the world.
Reply

Islamicboy
11-30-2006, 09:34 PM
I believe i did mention in one of my post that if you are giving dawah its ok. But if i didnt then i apologize..

Emigration To a Non-Muslim Country

By Mufti Taqi Usmani


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q.) What is the ruling regarding adoption of the nationality of a non-Muslim country? Many people who adopt the nationalities of these countries, or wish to do so insist that they do so only because they are persecuted in their own countries, through imprisonment, threats and intimidation or confiscation of their property etc. Others see no difference between their own countries, which though Muslim, have no Shariah, and those of the West. They contend that whilst both are equal in having no Islamic laws, their personal rights, property and honor are safer in their adopted country, and they will not be imprisoned or persecuted without reason.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A.) The issue of emigration to a non-Muslim country and permanent settlement there, is one on which the ruling would differ according to the situation, and the reasons for the emigration.

1. If a Muslim is forced by his circumstances to emigrate, e.g. he is persecuted in his country or imprisoned, or his property is confiscated etc., without his having committed any crime, and he sees no way out for himself other than to emigrate to a foreign country, then he would be permitted to do so in such a case without any karahat (abhorrence) whatsoever as long as he resolves to protect his faith, and keep himself away from the widespread evil found there.

2. Similarly, if a Muslim is forced to emigrate due to his financial situation, i.e. he cannot find the necessary means of subsistence despite extensive effort and he sees no alternative other than emigration to a non-Muslim country, then he is permitted to emigrate subject to the above conditions. Earning a livelihood through permissible means is also a duty for a Muslim, after his other fard duties, and the Shariah has not specified a certain place for it. Allah Ta'ala says:

"He is the one who has made the earth manageable for you. So traverse you through its tracts, and enjoy of the sustenance that He furnishes; and unto Him is the resurrection. [Al-Mulk 67:15]

3. If a Muslim adopts the nationality of an non-Muslim country for the purpose of calling its people towards Islam, or to convey Islamic laws to the Muslims residing there, and to encourage them to stay firm on their faith, then this is not only permissible, but also a source of reward. Many of the Sahabah and Tabi'een settled in distant Kuffar lands for this very purpose, and this action of theirs is counted amongst their virtues and points of merit.

4. If a person has enough means of livelihood available to him in his native
country for him to be able to live according to the (average) standard of his people, but he emigrates in order to raise his standard of living and live a life of luxury and comfort, then emigration for such a purpose has at least some degree of karahat in it, because such a person is throwing himself into a storm of evil, and endangering his faith and moral character without there being any necessity for it. Experience shows that the people who settle in non-Muslim countries for luxury and comfort find their religious restraint diminishing in the face of many temptations of evil.

5. Finally, if a person adopts a non-Muslim nationality solely for the purpose of increasing his standing in society, and as a matter of pride, or in preference to a Muslim nationality, or in imitation of the Kuffar then all such actions are Haram without exception. There is no need to cite evidence for this.
Reply

Islamicboy
11-30-2006, 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow

However, the simple facts are, there is insufficient space in all of the Islamic countries combined to hold 1.8 billion people. Next if all Muslims lived in a Muslim Country. The word of Allah(swt) would never be heard by most of the world.
I really doubt that all the muslim countries around the world cannot hold 1.8 billion. Countries do much better with more population look at china, India, and America.
Reply

aamirsaab
11-30-2006, 09:44 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The question isn't whether some people living in the West are "ignorant" or "paranoid" about the threat Islam faces, but whether there is some mass effort to war against the religion of Islam.
I meant that there are people who do want to wage a war against Islam due to their paranoia and ignorance. Sorry If i didn't make that clear enough in the original post.

I just don't see how you can factually back up that assertion.
Surely you have noticed the cyber-jihadies and neo-crusaders who frequent this forum every now and again. At least 2 of the latter group did so in this past week, although, their posts were deleted minutes after posting.

Yes, many in the West are not friends of Islam and never will be, just as many living in Muslim countries are not friends of the West and never will be. That doesn't equate to a wholesale war on Islam.
I understand that fully, what I meant was, there are those who don't understand and take it that there is actually this huge war going on. Both muslims and non.

Originally Posted by Islamicboy
I really doubt that all the muslim countries around the world cannot hold 1.8 billion. Countries do much better with more population look at china, India, and America.
The examples you gave are all non-muslim countries. The muslim countries that could do it are possibly Iraq (if you can get by the US forces fighting with insurgents), Iran (if ahmadenajad hasn't rallied his military and blocked the roads for defensive military purposes), Palestine (if you can get past the gaza strip...alive), Pakistan (if you can pay off the cops quick enough), and possibly Turkey (if they don't ban muslims and Islam all together). So I think I'll take my chances in the UK, the only "fear" here is that I might get shot running away from the cops.
Reply

Woodrow
11-30-2006, 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
I really doubt that all the muslim countries around the world cannot hold 1.8 billion. Countries do much better with more population look at china.
China that now because of food and land shortages makes it a crime for a woman to have more than 2 children. Has mandatory abortions and sterilizations.
Reply

Islamicboy
11-30-2006, 09:52 PM
China was a bad example look at india and america. Also as for the food shortage look at countries with small population there too is poverty. Poverty is every where ofcourse the more people there will be more on streets. Also lets not forget we are talking about every single muslim country holding 1.8 billion not just one land..
Reply

Islamicboy
11-30-2006, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
The examples you gave are all non-muslim countries. The muslim countries that could do it are possibly Iraq (if you can get by the US forces fighting with insurgents), Iran (if ahmadenajad hasn't rallied his military and blocked the roads for defensive military purposes), Palestine (if you can get past the gaza strip...alive), Pakistan (if you can pay off the cops quick enough), and possibly Turkey (if they don't ban muslims and Islam all together). So I think I'll take my chances in the UK, the only "fear" here is that I might get shot running away from the cops.
Those arent the only muslim countries. Afaganistan Inshallah Taliban will soon win they already have the enemies on the run. Albania, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Egypt, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Libya, Malaysia, Maldive Islands, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, Oman, Sudan the list goes on can you explain problem in each country.
Reply

Keltoi
11-30-2006, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Those arent the only muslim countries. Afaganistan Inshallah Taliban will soon win they already have the enemies on the run. Albania, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Egypt, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Libya, Malaysia, Maldive Islands, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, Oman, Sudan the list goes on can you explain problem in each country.
The Taliban has the "enemy" on the run? Is the enemy running to Pakistan?
Reply

aamirsaab
11-30-2006, 10:29 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Those arent the only muslim countries. Afaganistan Inshallah Taliban will soon win they already have the enemies on the run. Albania, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Egypt, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Libya, Malaysia, Maldive Islands, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, Oman, Sudan the list goes on can you explain problem in each country.
Most of them fall into several categories:
* the ruling party (government) is usually bad (corrupt)
* the economy sucks big time and is reflected in the living conditions and employment options
* there isn't enough space for 1.8 b to spread amongst those countries listed.
* there is war still waging on in several of them

Not all of those listed does have a problem with it as such, but you have to remember that it is people's choice as to where they live. And some do not even have that choice as they are born in a non-muslim country.

Just out of interest, where exactly do you live islamicboy? And do you live there because it is a muslim or non-muslim country or are there other factors too?
Reply

Islamicboy
12-01-2006, 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The Taliban has the "enemy" on the run? Is the enemy running to Pakistan?
ofcourse britian and amrica do have their bases in pakistan.
Reply

KAding
12-01-2006, 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
However, the simple facts are, there is insufficient space in all of the Islamic countries combined to hold 1.8 billion people. Next if all Muslims lived in a Muslim Country. The word of Allah(swt) would never be heard by most of the world.
Well, Europe already has many of the most closely populated countries in the world. So really not that much space left, especially if we desire at least a couple of forests and non-farming animals.
Reply

Keltoi
12-01-2006, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
ofcourse britian and amrica do have their bases in pakistan.
The U.K and the U.S. have bases in Pakistan? I'm sure that will come as a surprise to both parties and Pakistan itself.
Reply

Woodrow
12-01-2006, 04:41 PM
Pakistan is one of the few countries in the mid-east region the US does not have any bases in, nor large American settlements. Most if not all of the oil producing countries have US military bases and Civilian settlements of American oil field workers.

In another thread I posted a list of the Current US bases in the mid-east. The number of countries that have US military bases surprised me.

Just Air Force bases alone are found in nearly every Arabic speaking Country. Kuwait, Qatar and Bharain are even providing considerable funds for expansions to keep the American presence in their countries.

The Pentagon is paying for most of the improvements to runways, control towers, airport ramps and lighting systems, but wealthy Persian Gulf states like Qatar, Kuwait and Bahrain are picking up the tab for hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade facilities for their American tenants. At this sprawling air base, for instance, the Qatari government is spending nearly $400 million to build a state-of-the-art regional air operations center. The 100,000-square-foot, fortified headquarters is expected to be operating by July 2008.
Source:http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/i...rangements.htm
Reply

Keltoi
12-01-2006, 04:45 PM
There are many advantages to having U.S. bases in your country. Primarily the economic stimulus, but also the added level of protection that exists, in other words, it makes the job of the country's national security officer much easier.
Reply

Mateen
12-02-2006, 04:18 AM
Salam,

Looks to much heat here ha.

We Muslims are so much disintegreted with no single opinion on anything.
Just mention any sharia to a scholar you will find a line of scholars who are ready to intrepret it differently.
It was different when our Prophet Muhammad{saas} was living among us, he was one in all, our religious, political and military leader.
But as we know within few years of his depart, our Kalipths got shaheed and we know what happened at Karbala{ The enemy was so called Muslim who martyred our hero Hussain{as}.

313 muslims were enough to keep Islam alive. Here's why. They believed in thier religion, Allah and kept working according to Quran, and that is why Islam spread.

BuT TODAY WE are so weak that we require Non-muslim { American} bases to protect us from our fellow Muslim countries. Our prophet and our Calipths who worked so hard to establish Islam are surely ahsmed of us seeking ohters help to protect ourselves. { It makes me cry in shame}

What a shame to seek for someone else's protection besides Allah!!!

What a shame to have oil but have to ask others to give us knowldege and instruments so that we can tap our reserviours.

Prophet Muhammad { saas} said that if he were to live to see 2 muslims hating eachother then he would kill them.

I guess he would have killed us all.
Iraq hates Iran. Iraq hates Kuwait{ Kuwait helps US destroy Iraq. Saudi needs US bases to protect themselves from neoghbours.

All in the middle of this chaos we Muslims want Islam to rule the world.
This is over the fact that we have rejected the quran by dividing ourselves in sects, sunnis hate shia's, brothers against eachother.

When we ourselves do not follow the quran then how on earth will we show the world that if ruled by Quran, we can get better worlds, filled with peace and secure hereafter.??

Befofe blaming others { US , UK AND REST OF WORLD} lets analyze,

1. Do we pray 5 times a day with understanding Quran?
2. Whenever we see any mischief do we activley intervene ?
3. Have we cleared the mis-conception about Jihad?
4. Have we explained to our brothers who have mis-intrepreted Jihad and told them and the world we are against them?
5. Have we given the true message of Muhammad{saas}?
5. We have muslim countries, but do we have islamic ruling?

No we may not have any, but sure we want Quran to rule the world!! Sure we want to be respected. Sure we want to be helped. Isn't it strange?

Yes, there are people who hate Islam just for the name of it, but these people will die in their anguish if we follow Islam completely.

Allah chose people of Moses and gave them the commandments. But when they went away from those revelations Allah punished them for years.

Allah gave us the Quran, we are straying away from it and no wonder we are humiliated everywhere.

Let us remember, God helps those who helps themselves.
We should go to all Muslim leaders and refresh their memory that they are chosen to rule by Quran. If they do not agree its time to change them , from Saudi to India, small or large.

Wassala.
Reply

Woodrow
12-02-2006, 04:22 AM
It brings me much sadness to read your post and then realise:











I can not find anything in it I can honestly disagree with.
Reply

Islamicboy
12-02-2006, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The U.K and the U.S. have bases in Pakistan? I'm sure that will come as a surprise to both parties and Pakistan itself.
Thats interesting pakistan is the bigges ally of america on war agiast islam. why the hell would usa use saudi bases to attack afganistan. Ofcourse they used pakistani bases.
Reply

Islamicboy
12-02-2006, 01:30 PM
Mateen i agree with you 100%. But if this thread is being refered to then i am sure all muslims agree this is new war agisnt islam. The tactics have changed/. As far as muslims livng in nonmuslim countries. non of us here are scholars but i did quote one mufti and Bilal Phillips video you can watch on this topic. Those were not my own fatwa or anything i am not a scholar neither is anyone else on thisforum.
Reply

Hijrah
12-02-2006, 02:00 PM
What's disturbing is that even though some of these terrorist characts follow very deviant khawaarij, takfeeree ideologies, u see Bin Laden, for example, growing a beard and distinguishing from the kuffaar, Muslims here will shave it off completely, show no interest for Islam, get involved in haraam things, integrate into kufr society and then when someone comes to them all they can say is 'islam is a religion of peace' or 'o, these people don't really represent islam'. br. mateen spoke the truth right there.

a good example would be KAding who on the first page, pointed out, that to a certain extent he believes the terrorists are actually following Islam with the correct beliefs to a certain extent.

EDIT: Mateen are you shia?
Reply

Woodrow
12-02-2006, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Thats interesting pakistan is the bigges ally of america on war agiast islam. why the hell would usa use saudi bases to attack afganistan. Ofcourse they used pakistani bases.
From a Military standpoint it would be a disadvantage to use Pakastani bases for any military acts in Afghanistan. Security would be very difficult to maintain. There are many Afghanistan sympathisers in Pakistan. Aircraft takeoffs and landings could be monitored from Mountain tops in Afghanistan, reducing the effectiveness of the element of surprise.

There is no time advantage, with the speed of current aircraft. But, there would be much more pressure to get aircraft off the ground and to high altitude as fast as possible.

Plus by using bases further from Afghanistan air craft could stay at a higher altitude when landing, without need to come lower over Afghanistan and within the range of ground fire from Afghanistan troops.

Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Mateen i agree with you 100%. But if this thread is being refered to then i am sure all muslims agree this is new war agisnt islam. The tactics have changed/. As far as muslims livng in nonmuslim countries. non of us here are scholars but i did quote one mufti and Bilal Phillips video you can watch on this topic. Those were not my own fatwa or anything i am not a scholar neither is anyone else on thisforum.
Like you I also agree with Mateen, but it does sadden me to see that the things he said are true.

I am not as convinced as you are that this is a war against Islam. I am convinced it is a War against some Arab nations, but not because they are Muslim. I can not say it is a racial issue either as there is no animosity being shown against the majority of the Arab Nations. I really don't understand the animosity against those particular nations, so far I can not think of any reason why they would be a threat to any country outside of the Mediteranian area.

In spite of what many people tend to believe. Oil is really not an issue, nor a factor. The mid-east is no longer a source for "Cheap" oil. Even if the oil itself was free, The cost of drilling, storage and transportation of it would still make it more costly then other sources. Plus, the massive reserves that had been there are now considerably reduced.

Yes, Islam is at "war" with some aspects of Western culture. But, that is conducted as a peaceful Jihad by most Muslims. It is a battle within our selves not to succumb to the temptations of readily available sin.
Reply

Nuseyba bintkab
12-02-2006, 03:13 PM
every where to day is a war against islam
Reply

Woodrow
12-02-2006, 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Nuseyba bintkab
every where to day is a war against islam
I have difficulty believing that. Perhaps it is because I do not get out of Austin very often. Here all I see is very much tolerance of us by the non-Muslims. The Muslim population here is growing rapidly, much of it new immigrants from Palistine, Irag, and Pakistan. The State College, Univeristy of Texas has established a very large Islamic Department. That is headed and Taught by Islamic Scholars from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. The classes are attended not only by Muslims but also a large number of non-Muslims. There is even a Mosque on the campus for the Muslim students that live on campus. There are a very large number of Muslim students from Islamic countries now coming here to study. The Arabic Language is now an elective course at some of the public schools. Austin is not a very large City, but we know have 6 Mosques. Four quite large ones and they are not sufficien for all of the Muslims. 2 mosques are currently being added onto and several new ones have already started construction or are well along in the plans to start soon.
Reply

Islamicboy
12-03-2006, 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Like you I also agree with Mateen, but it does sadden me to see that the things he said are true.

I am not as convinced as you are that this is a war against Islam. I am convinced it is a War against some Arab nations, but not because they are Muslim. I can not say it is a racial issue either as there is no animosity being shown against the majority of the Arab Nations. I really don't understand the animosity against those particular nations, so far I can not think of any reason why they would be a threat to any country outside of the Mediteranian area.

In spite of what many people tend to believe. Oil is really not an issue, nor a factor. The mid-east is no longer a source for "Cheap" oil. Even if the oil itself was free, The cost of drilling, storage and transportation of it would still make it more costly then other sources. Plus, the massive reserves that had been there are now considerably reduced.

Yes, Islam is at "war" with some aspects of Western culture. But, that is conducted as a peaceful Jihad by most Muslims. It is a battle within our selves not to succumb to the temptations of readily available sin.
Crusaders in the 1099 century used the same tactic they brainwashed everyone into thinking that muslims are evil barbaric people. Then the slaughter had taken place. Today we see the same all over agian but what i meant with the tactics changed. Anymore they cannot claim to be war with islam because there are liberial Americans too who wouldnt take too kindly to this. Therefore American media has taken the role of brainwashing the public. This is not a war agiasnt some "Arab Nation" thats what the enemy wants us to think. They want us muslims to be divided.


Muslims should ask themselves what if 911 did not happen to america? What if 911 happened in Russia? And Russia was at war with Taliban and Iraq. Would muslims support Russia or would the whole muslim world be outraged and Jihad would have been declared. The reason Muslims are moving back turing their face is because its America.
Reply

Woodrow
12-03-2006, 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Crusaders in the 1099 century used the same tactic they brainwashed everyone into thinking that muslims are evil barbaric people. Then the slaughter had taken place. Today we see the same all over agian but what i meant with the tactics changed. Anymore they cannot claim to be war with islam because there are liberial Americans too who wouldnt take too kindly to this. Therefore American media has taken the role of brainwashing the public. This is not a war agiasnt some "Arab Nation" thats what the enemy wants us to think. They want us muslims to be divided.


Muslims should ask themselves what if 911 did not happen to america? What if 911 happened in Russia? And Russia was at war with Taliban and Iraq. Would muslims support Russia or would the whole muslim world be outraged and Jihad would have been declared. The reason Muslims are moving back turing their face is because its America.
It is quite difficult for the government to be controling the media in the US. In my household the only news we watch on TV is Al-Jazeera by satellite. Also there are many Islamic magazines available at the newstands. Yes, we do get bombarded with news media from ALL sources, but we are not directed to look at only "approved" sources. Some of the news sources are biased, but we also have the option of looking at other sources and deciding what is the truth.

911 was not an attack against the US although that may have been the intent. The World Trade Centers were truly international and many if not most of the Business housed in it were from different countries. Many Muslim companies from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and other Countries were housed in the buildings.

911 was as much of an attack on Islam as it was on the US. Many Muslims around the world are aware of that especially ones whose companies were headquartered in it. I suspect that there would have been little difference if the Towers had been in Russia if they had the same businesses in them as they had in New York. Although I doubt if Russia would have allowed the unrestricted presence of so many non-Russian businesses to operate out of Russia.

Anywhere in the world even here, at any given time you might see an anti-America protest. And most Americans will defend the peoples right to protest against what they see as wrong. Muslims in America are quick to point out wrongs in the US system and they are correct in doing so. Most Americans will support the right of any person to peacefully change any part of the system that discriminates against any person.

Very few American's are brainwashed into believing Muslims are evil. Muslims are finding much acceptance and the new comers are often surprised to see that there is no infringement of Muslim beliefs. Out of the thousand of Islams that enter the US each year and of the thousands Studying in US colleges, it is very few that have ever expressed any belief that their religious rights were infringed upon while they are in America.

I have yet to see or hear of any anti Islam Protest anywhere in America.
Reply

Islamicboy
12-03-2006, 02:42 AM
I am not sure if you are the same person but I do recall you were in the American armed forces (military) were you not? Seems to be you have bias towards America as its your country that you truly love. You can probably accuse me of same I am bias when it comes to islam. Ofcourse i will side with muslims because i am muslim. But i have more then enough evidence that this war is evil war. This war is here i will quote Sheik Fiez "Where the person attacked doesnt even know he is being attacked". They have launched an ideological attack.

911 was not an attack on islam brother I can tell you that for sure. All those muslim nations were helping the American economy. While the americans were helping israel kill muslim children. Brother could you please tell me am I as a muslim allowed to give a non muslim gun to kill another muslim? Ofcourse not its the same thing when the muslim countries that help the US they are giving non muslim guns and weapons to kill muslims. Your claim very few americans are brainwashed into thinking muslims are evil is obscured. Many non muslims will lie to your face they will pretend to like you. Behind your back they have hatred what there hearts hold are far worse then which they expose with there mouths.
Reply

GARY
12-03-2006, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
I am not sure if you are the same person but I do recall you were in the American armed forces (military) were you not? Seems to be you have bias towards America as its your country that you truly love. You can probably accuse me of same I am bias when it comes to islam. Ofcourse i will side with muslims because i am muslim. But i have more then enough evidence that this war is evil war. This war is here i will quote Sheik Fiez "Where the person attacked doesnt even know he is being attacked". They have launched an ideological attack.

911 was not an attack on islam brother I can tell you that for sure. All those muslim nations were helping the American economy. While the americans were helping israel kill muslim children. Brother could you please tell me am I as a muslim allowed to give a non muslim gun to kill another muslim? Ofcourse not its the same thing when the muslim countries that help the US they are giving non muslim guns and weapons to kill muslims. Your claim very few americans are brainwashed into thinking muslims are evil is obscured. Many non muslims will lie to your face they will pretend to like you. Behind your back they have hatred what there hearts hold are far worse then which they expose with there mouths.
You speak of brainwashing, but your explaination of the world as you see it, is not new. Others have claimed the same things. These views though, are seen as the other side of the spectrum of brainwashing. These views - are associated with the anti-western propaganda that is being spewed out by hate groups and anarchists - in the minds of many.
Reply

Woodrow
12-03-2006, 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
I am not sure if you are the same person but I do recall you were in the American armed forces (military) were you not? Seems to be you have bias towards America as its your country that you truly love. You can probably accuse me of same I am bias when it comes to islam. Ofcourse i will side with muslims because i am muslim. But i have more then enough evidence that this war is evil war. This war is here i will quote Sheik Fiez "Where the person attacked doesnt even know he is being attacked". They have launched an ideological attack.

911 was not an attack on islam brother I can tell you that for sure. All those muslim nations were helping the American economy. While the americans were helping israel kill muslim children. Brother could you please tell me am I as a muslim allowed to give a non muslim gun to kill another muslim? Ofcourse not its the same thing when the muslim countries that help the US they are giving non muslim guns and weapons to kill muslims. Your claim very few americans are brainwashed into thinking muslims are evil is obscured. Many non muslims will lie to your face they will pretend to like you. Behind your back they have hatred what there hearts hold are far worse then which they expose with there mouths.
True I am the one who was in the USAF 40 years ago. I am also the one who was permenatly disabled as a result of it in a war I did not approve of. I have many reasons why I could very easily hate the US and all it stands for. In fact I have lived much of my life outside of the US. I believe American democracy is a very poor form of government. Yet, so far it is better then the Government of any other country I have ever lived in.

I can agree with your quote:

This war is here i will quote Sheik Fiez "Where the person attacked doesnt even know he is being attacked". They have launched an ideological attack.
That is true. However, I have yet to see the attack that you keep mentioning. I do not know of any person in the US who believes America should or is attacking Islam. With the religious diversity here, it would be impossible to gain a united religious effort against any religion anywhere in the world.

What you see as an attack is not an attack bu America or Americans. It is the result of world economics and it is the appeal of wealth among multi-national corporations that is tempting and threatening Islam. Because of the wide spread and international nature of the giant multinational corporations many of our Muslim brothers are being faced with the love of wealth and the desire to shun their less wealthy brothers. The multinational corporations have an insatiable greed for wealth and do have a need to end not only Islam but all religions, as religions is the enemy of greed.

Now the question is where are these multinational corporations located? The answer is everwhere. The investors supporting them are found in every nation and among every ethnic group. There is no central control center. The investor who may be your next door neighbor or a small Palestinian business man is dependent on the success of the investors in those corporations to survive. We have gotten ourselves into a huge trap and all of the world is presently a prisoner of world economics.

As far as hatred among non Muslims. Remember I did not revert until a little over a year ago and I was quite active in the non-Muslim community. I have only heard one Non-Muslim say anything offensive towards Muslims and that was in the nature of a biased joke about clothing. In my years as a non-Muslim I have never seen any thing that would cause me to believe Islam was evil and I have never heard a Non-Muslim say anything indicating they believed Islam is evil.
Reply

Keltoi
12-03-2006, 05:12 AM
I've said this many times, but to me the only people making the current conflicts after 9-11 a "war against Islam" are terrorists and propoganda agents. Sadly, some Muslims will buy into this. I'm not defending any foreign policy decision, but there is no war against Islam. Saying it doesn't make it true, citing "evidence" that you can't put into words doesn't make it true. There is a war going on alright, but it has to do more with foreign policy blunders in the case of Iraq. I supported and still support the War in Afghanistan, where I believe our attention should be focused in the first place. Al-Qaeda is the enemy, not Islam.
Reply

Islamicboy
12-03-2006, 08:15 AM
Taliban had offered to give bin laden if prove was provided but your devil government refused to provide evidence. It makes compelet sense no country just give away there citizen without evidence probably some middleeastern countries do that. But not islamic countries.
Reply

Woodrow
12-03-2006, 08:34 AM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Taliban had offered to give bin laden if prove was provided but your devil government refused to provide evidence. It makes compelet sense no country just give away there citizen without evidence probably some middleeastern countries do that. But not islamic countries.
Have you ever lived in a Mid eastern country? Is the country you now live in Islamic?

In spite our desires to live in a truly Islamic country the closest any of us can come is to live in an Islamic community within the country we reside in. You do not seem to accept any mid-eastern countries as being Islamic. I believe the country you most often refer to as being Islamic is Somalia. I will agree that many Somalians are very good Muslims, but even in somalia, especialy in Mogadaishu you will find corruption and people calling themselves Muslim but not practicing Islam.
Reply

Islamicboy
12-03-2006, 09:24 AM
Lets get some misconspection about me correct. I don't hate western world and I don't hate American Civilians. I respect western civilians because some will speak out for justice.
I lived in Saudi Arabia my dad lived there over 22 years off his life. I know quite few people here in Canada where i live now who came from saudi arabia and middle eastern countries.
Yes, i do agree with you woodrow that we can live in a non muslim in muslim community. I wish to move to a islamic country inshallah soon right now i live with my parents and recently finished highschool. Besides my parents objection in me moving i dont have the money either. so inhallah i plan to wait before i move.
Reason i dont accept any musim country as islamic is because the governmnets kill there own people. Jail torture and depot just to make west happy. Which seems to work in a lot of the cases.

I dont support Al Qaeda but I do support Taliban. I am not too sure about Al Qaea war tactics being islamic.

General Public will have some sinners ofcourse. Even in saudi arabia there are Prostitutes. But as long s i have the freedom to practice my reiligion without being forced to walk outside and see bunch of half naked women and men that swear every other word. I wouldnt want to leave canada who would honesty. But for the sake of Allah and trying to live a sin less life or atleast protectin myself from the sins. Also i heard when the wrath of allah comes on the sinners it takes everyone around them.
Reply

Woodrow
12-03-2006, 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Lets get some misconspection about me correct. I don't hate western world and I don't hate American Civilians. I respect western civilians because some will speak out for justice.
I lived in Saudi Arabia my dad lived there over 22 years off his life. I know quite few people here in Canada where i live now who came from saudi arabia and middle eastern countries.
Yes, i do agree with you woodrow that we can live in a non muslim in muslim community. I wish to move to a islamic country inshallah soon right now i live with my parents and recently finished highschool. Besides my parents objection in me moving i dont have the money either. so inhallah i plan to wait before i move.
Reason i dont accept any musim country as islamic is because the governmnets kill there own people. Jail torture and depot just to make west happy. Which seems to work in a lot of the cases.

I dont support Al Qaeda but I do support Taliban. I am not too sure about Al Qaea war tactics being islamic.

General Public will have some sinners ofcourse. Even in saudi arabia there are Prostitutes. But as long s i have the freedom to practice my reiligion without being forced to walk outside and see bunch of half naked women and men that swear every other word. I wouldnt want to leave canada who would honesty. But for the sake of Allah and trying to live a sin less life or atleast protectin myself from the sins. Also i heard when the wrath of allah comes on the sinners it takes everyone around them.
Jazakallahu Khair for replying. Having some knowledge of a person and where they have been makes it easier to put their statements into the proper light.

Regarding your last sentence. since we are all sinners and all of us have sinned, I am making the asumption you mean non-believer. Is it not true that each of us will be judged on our own deeds and not held accountable for the deeds of others? We may often have no choice as to where we live. However we always have a choice of if we will live among them or if we live in the proximitry of them. To live among denotes living as them. To live in the proximitry of them means in the physical area. As long as their is one non-believer on this earth we are all living among a non-believer.

In Canada I would suggest that you go outside the large cities and enjoy the freshness of the people in the rural areas who do not condone the blatant lewdness of the city life. I have found the open lewdness in any country to be the result of large cities where the acts of a few become more public and are often mistaken as the attitude of the city and the country.

For those very reasons I have shunned city life most of my life. It is only because I no longer can care for myself that I now live in a City. I feel very fortunate that the City is Austin, as here I have not seen the open sin fullness I have found in other cities, throughout the world. I suspect those are a sickness of city life and not a reflection of the majority of the people of any nation.

I do not know how long you have been in Canada, but I hope you are there long enough to see that the Western World has no agenda to destroy Islam.
Reply

Islamicboy
12-03-2006, 08:10 PM
Woodrow i will take your word for it. I believe west or American government does not have a plan of making war agiasn't islam. The only way we will truly be able to figure this out is by waiting and watching the results of this so called "WAR ON TERROR"
Reply

Woodrow
12-03-2006, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Islamicboy
Woodrow i will take your word for it. I believe west or American government does not have a plan of making war agiasn't islam. The only way we will truly be able to figure this out is by waiting and watching the results of this so called "WAR ON TERROR"
We can do a little more then just watch. One of the most important things we can do is live a life that shows the world exactly what a Muslim is. Any one of us may very well be the only example of a Muslim some people will ever see and based on us that is what will be thought of as what Islam is.

This is one difficulty us Muslims in the west have. We need to be aware that all of Islam will be seen as what we say and do. For that reason we need to have strong Imam and be able to overcome all temptations and to defeat adversity with peace instead of words or actions of hate.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
12-03-2006, 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
It is fighting some interpretations of Islam, yes. What they call the 'extremists' or 'fundamentalists', the revolutionaries if you will. I don't think the US is fighting 'Islam' in general though. The US is actually cooperating with a lot of Muslims in their fight against these people.
The U.S. doesn't like the interpretation of Islam that doesn't like the U.S. - that's actually a no-brainer.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Woodrow
12-03-2006, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
The U.S. doesn't like the interpretation of Islam that doesn't like the U.S. - that was actually a given.

Ninth Scribe
A lot of truth in that. However it isn't so much not liking the US that is disliked it is some of the methods of showing dislike are what isn't liked. A good example is Morocco has shown it does not like an American presence in Morocco. I believe all US Bases in Morocco have been shut down and nearly all Americans are now out of Morocco. But, that was done quietly in peacefull diplomatic methods and the US still has good relations with Morocco. I suspect the outcome would have been different if there had been street demonstrations demanding Americans to leave.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
12-03-2006, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
A lot of truth in that. However it isn't so much not liking the US that is disliked it is some of the methods of showing dislike are what isn't liked. A good example is Morocco has shown it does not like an American presence in Morocco. I believe all US Bases in Morocco have been shut down and nearly all Americans are now out of Morocco. But, that was done quietly in peacefull diplomatic methods and the US still has good relations with Morocco. I suspect the outcome would have been different if there had been street demonstrations demanding Americans to leave.
Yes, very true. Politicians are so creepy, which is why the work force used to ignore it all. But, in doing so, they took advantage of the situation while our backs were turned... then tried to fire all the watch-dog groups who were monitoring their activities and ratting them out. So we have to babysit them and watch every thing they try to do. Definately puts a dent in my free-time... bast---s!

American people don't do anything to make people mad at us... we're too cute ;)

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-04-2006, 11:50 AM
this thread is particually addressed to the non muslims here,

so peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

i wish to ask you a question...

do you follow the logic of your politicians and leaders that if a muslim nation, or its leaders anyway help sponser or in some way support an attack on your nation then that would in itself make that nation a target for attack even though innocents would inevitably be killed in the process?

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Keltoi
12-04-2006, 06:43 PM
That would depend on the situation, but if a particular government actively sponsored and aided an attack against the United States then absolutely. That is common sense.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-04-2006, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
That would depend on the situation, but if a particular government actively sponsored and aided an attack against the United States then absolutely. That is common sense.
ok keltoi,

putting it another way...

in principle are you saying if a nation is attacked with the aid of another government then you are saying that other nation is fair game - even if civilians are hurt in the process?

i am only talking hyperthetically at this point, in principles.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Keltoi
12-04-2006, 09:34 PM
If the government of one nation actively participates in an attack upon another nation, that nation has committed an act of war. Pure and simple. As for the inevitable civilian deaths, who has more responsibility for that outcome? The government that involved its citizens in a war by attacking another nation or the attacked nation which responds to obvious provocation?

As for the elusion to the Bush Doctrine, the response of the United States would depend on the severity and the scale of that governments participation. In the case of the Taliban in Afghanistan, it was blatantly obvious to all involved that the Taliban had no intention of turning over Bin Laden. They were simply buying time for him to escape. Of course he escaped anyway, but that was due to putting his capture in the hands of local warlords.

Every situation is different, but in principle, the Bush Doctrine isn't that controversial because it states the obvious. If you aid the enemies of the United States you will be treated as an enemy. That doesn't always mean military action, sometimes it is economic punishment or isolation. Depends on the circumstances and the severity of the problem.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-05-2006, 11:49 AM
to keltoi,

thank you. but dont you realise that this is the exact same logic used by some muslims to justify attacks on the US and my own land of the UK?

i.e the biggest supporter of the tyrants in the muslim lands that do terrible things is the US, the biggest supporter of israel is the US, the biggest attacker on the muslim lands at the moment is the US.

doesnt it worry you that you share an idiological position with them, that if a nation doesnt attack you but supports attacks against your nation then it is allowable to attack them back?

Abu Abdullah
Reply

KAding
12-05-2006, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
to keltoi,

thank you. but dont you realise that this is the exact same logic used by some muslims to justify attacks on the US and my own land of the UK?

i.e the biggest supporter of the tyrants in the muslim lands that do terrible things is the US, the biggest supporter of israel is the US, the biggest attacker on the muslim lands at the moment is the US.

doesnt it worry you that you share an idiological position with them, that if a nation doesnt attack you but supports attacks against your nation then it is allowable to attack them back?

Abu Abdullah
I disagree. There are several distinctions that need to be made here, first the acts of a state vs. the acts of private organizations. Secondly there is the issue of what is being targeted, are the military or government targeted or civilians soft targets like a subway?

Just because America attacked Iraq does not mean a Muslim in the US may on private initiative attack the US. States that fight states in a conventional war (with uniforms and all) are the definiton of 'war'. If private individuals wage a war (usually through means of sabotage or terrorism, without uniforms) they are considered illegal combatants or terrorists.

Now, where Syria to declare war on the US for invading Iraq and start a conventional war it would be very much legitimate. But private groups or militia's simply don't have that right, because they do not represent any nation. Even if they say they represent a nation there would be no formal way in which they legitimize their sovereignty. Of course, Al-quada in Iraq might claim to fight for all Muslims, but who is to say? They do not have the formal and official authority to speak in the name of all Muslims.

Now, if there would still be a Caliph with an actual uniformed army this would not be an issue. Quite frankly I think this attitude that any private group can take up arms is very much one of the core problems in the Muslim world at the moment. There are an enormous amount of private militias that actually undermine the strength of the official Muslim governments, essentially making the Muslim world weaker instead than stronger.

In short, allowing private, non-governmental groups to wage wars is a recipe for chaos.
Reply

kraze
12-05-2006, 03:50 PM
You know what this is . . this is mass genocide of true muslims across the world. Muhammad (PBUH) if he was alive now, what do you think he would say? What guidance do you think Allah (swt) would give him? this is merely I fight on two fronts.

Firstly, It is an economic strategic fight. Afghanistan, the opium capital of the world. Now this could be said that all these opium fields, where apparently something like 60% of the UK drugs come from is a bad thing, politically and Islamically yes. But for the government, do they REALLY want to get rid of such a thing. I dont think so. That is why we still see this crime, it helps keep the economy going, it is part of the economy, approxiamately in the UK it contributes 3-5% of the national GDP (which equates to apprx £1.2 billion). Secondly in Iraq, now are there really WMD, they say they went to "get rid of a tyrant and to clean Iraq from nuclear weapons" THey knew exactly what they were doing, its all media propaganda, the way they twist and turn a story in order to "spice" it up. THe US is the most fuel consuming country in the world, it takes a lot of petrol and gass guzzlers. Now iraq is the second most country with the most largest oil fields in the world, first is obviously S.A.

THe iraq war, there are two economic benefits to the US. Firstly, it gets access to oil fields and prestiguos oil contracts which have been agreed by the puppet government of Iraq. Secondly, the military contracts that the US firms have been given are helping to contribute to the economy. Thirdly, US companies are gaining contracts to REBUILD IRAQ after they have committed so may crimes against islam and humanity in it. All this equates to billions of dollars. If you want sources for these then I will get them for you. Finally, the US wants to control the arab region as this is not stable in their eyes. THey know that Islam and religion are becoming ignited in the countries and that anti-US thoughts are prominent. They give loans and give a lot of "help" to these countries. THe fault with Arab countries, rich-poor gap and more importantly VERY poor governments, they just care for their own stomachs, so long as it is full then they are ok and will neglect the others. Also, the islam, true islam and ummah is very weak at the moment. We will watch other countries fights our muslim brothers but we will not speak out and say the truth, believe in Allah brothers. There is always victory, remember the battle of Badhr. What needs to be done is something dramatic as currently the world is changing, the balance of power is in a phase of change and an opportunity is there. World war is prominent, its on a knifes edge, although I doubt this will happen. The current political environment is instable. Especially for the UK and the US who both are seen as evil and corrupt in other countries. International/ Humanitarian Law mr blair and Mr Bush "what is that??"

What Islam needs to do is, we know we all feel this in our hearts, our soul yearns to tell this, a true muslim can see it. Brothers the time is close when we have to show ourselfs, show our imaan and show our dedication to Allah (swt). If you remember what Muhammad (pbuh) had to go through and all the pain and suffering caused to him by the qurayshi clans then this is a similar situation today. We need to win the hearts and minds of as many brothers and sisters as we can. Increase our imaan, pray as many times a day if not 5 times, read the quran and try to understand its meaning and more importantly ACT upon its meaning is a must. Finally help each other out, try not to upset a fellow muslim brother as this reduces ummah but try to help each other and be considerate to one another. GO one step ahead. A few more things to finish.

Secondly, the war of
Reply

kraze
12-05-2006, 03:51 PM
An Interview With Shaitan
(the cursed one)
by
Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)
(the Messenger of Allah)
(may the Peace of Allah be upon him and his Progeny)

From
Kitab Ul-Awael

Once our beloved Prophet Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him) was walking out with his companions from behind the Jan'atul Baqi (Medina).

As he was stepping out, he saw a very old man with a colourful hat on his head, colourful belt with diamonds on it was around his waist, with a bell in his left hand, and with a net in his right hand.

This old man said:> 'As salamu alaikum Yah Rasool Allah' (O Prophet of Allah may the peace of Allah be upon you) to our beloved Prophet. Prophet didn't reply to his salaam.

This old man knew why our Prophet didn't reply to his salaam.

After all this old man was not like any other old man, he was Shaitan-the cursed one.
Then Shaitan said, 'Salaam ul-llahai Alaykum yah Rasool Allah' (Allah's peace be upon you O Prophet of Allah).

Then, our Prophet accepted his salaam. Now, the companions of Prophet understood that this was the cursed one Shaitan. All the companions were surprised to see the cursed one personally.

Shaitan (the cursed one) attempted to misguide even the Prophets and Imams. Shaitan-the cursed one used to meet with prophets to answer any questions of the Prophets.

In fact, it was obligatory on him (the cursed Shaitan) to answer the questions of the Messengers of Allah. Our beloved Prophet, though he had all the Knowledge, only for the sake of his companions, asked Shaitan-the cursed one the following questions:

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : O Shaitan, people are interested in your hat, tell me what is this hat?

Shaitan-the cursed one : Shaitan the cursed one replied, o Prophet of Allah, my colourful hat is this materialistic worldly goods, perishable worldly benefits, and temporary worldly enjoyment. Once, any person get caught by this colourful hat of mine, then that person stays in my control and forgets all about the hereafter.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, what is this belt you are wearing with gold and diamonds around your waist?

Shaitan-the cursed one: O Prophet, this is my second weapon which keeps my back bone strong. O Prophet, those Momneens (believers) who do not get into my trap by my hat, I use this weapon.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : But what is it?

Shaitan the cursed one : O Prophet this are the worldly behijaabs (un-veiled) woman/girl of this worlds. Through this behijaab (un-veiled) woman/girls I deceive the momineens (believers)

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : But what is this bell you are holding in your left hand ?

Shaitan the cursed one : This is the bell through which I destroy the imaan (faith) of the believers.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : How do you do that ?

Shaitan the cursed one : Whenever I see believers arguing with each other, getting into minor verbal antagonism or disagreement with each other, then I ring this bell. As I ring this bell, these believers get into major verbal fights and they start saying things (such as backbiting, false accusations or uses bad language) to each other due to which there own imaan (faith) disappears from hearts.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : But what is this net you are holding?

Shaitan the cursed one : When I see the believers not getting trap by any form of my weapons then I throw this net at them as my last weapon.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : But what is this net ?

Shaitan-the cursed one: O Prophet of Allah, this is Riyah Kari (performing good deeds only to show people). Whenever, I see that a believer is performing all the good deeds and that person not getting caught by my weapon, then i throw this net at them. By stepping at this net, their good deeds which they were performing for Allah, becomes invalid. Because the believers gradually get ego in them while performing all their prayers, observing fast, performing Hajj, paying Zakat and Khums, and several other duties towards Allah. They (believers) perform all these and other good deeds, but after they get caught by my net, they show their good deeds to other and as though they have done favour on Allah by performing such good deeds. They tell people when they perform night prayers. they tell people when they fast, they tell people when they go to Hajj. They give money in charity but only to show off or for their personal interest. This is how they eventually feel superior to those people whom they know are not performing these good deeds. All these actions which take place after they step on my net makes their good deed go waste (void).

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, tell me one more thing, now that you have spent so much of your time in this life with your bad deeds, do you have any friend, Do you have companion?

Shaitan-the cursed one: Although, I visit all the houses and all the people in general, but I have 11 (eleven) types of people, that are my best friends and companions. And I have 15 (fifteen) types of people that I hate them the most. O Prophet, keep in mind that a person who is my friend is an enemy of Allah, and a person who is my enemy is a friend of Allah.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : O shaitan tell me who are your friends and who are your enemies?

(Then, Shaitan told our beloved Prophet a list of his friends and a list of his enemies. After he described his enemies our beloved Prophet asked his reasons. We have excluded the question of our beloved Prophet and simply listed the name or description of the enemy followed by his reason in some cases.)

Shaitan-the cursed one: Shaitan said, O Prophet of Allah, first I have 15 (fifteen) enemies, and these are as follows:

ENEMIES OF SHAITAN (THE CURSED ONE)

O Prophet of Allah, my first enemy is you and your Ahlul-Bait (progeny) because if it wasn't for you and your AhlulBait, my mission would be quite successful. There would have been not even a single believer (follower of right path shown by Allah). You brought the religion of Allah (al-Islam) to this world, You made people believers of Allah's communication.

O Prophet of Allah my second enemy is that just ruler who rules a nation with complete justice.

O Prophet of Allah, my third enemy is that rich person who does not have any ego or feel superior to other poor people around him.

O Prophet of Allah, my fourth enemy is that business man who perform his business with justice.

O Prophet of Allah my fifth enemy is that Aalim (scholar) who fears Allah and practice what he preaches.

O Prophet of Allah, my sixth enemy is that specific Mo'min (believer) who work on showing other the path of truth. Who offer other the knowledge of Wajibats (obligatory) and Haram (forbidden) duties of Allah. This person is undoing all my hard work.

O Prophet of Allah, my seventh enemy is that person who does not listen to what is forbidden, does not see what is forbidden, and does not eat what is forbidden.

O Prophet of Allah, my eighth enemy is that believer who keeps himself clean all the time. A person who stays in Wuzu and who wears clean clothes.

O Prophet of Allah, my ninth enemy is that person who has a big heart. Who spents his/her money for the sake of Allah.

O Prophet of Allah, my tenth enemy is that person who gives Sadqa (charity) only for the name of Allah.

o Prophet of Allah, my eleventh enemy is that person who reads, memorizes, and act according to Quran.

O Prophet of Allah, my twelfth enemy is that person who recites "Namaz-e-Shab" (prayers recited after the midnight and before namaz Fajr). I am always afraid of this person.

O Prophet of Allah, my thirteenth enemy is that person who offers his wajib (obligatory) Khums, wajib Zakat, and other wajib sadaqas.

O Prophet of Allah, my fourteenth enemy is that woman who observes Hijaab (Veil) and safeguards her Hijaab.

O Prophet of Allah, my fifteenth enemy is that who performs his "Ibadat" (such as prayers) without having thoughts except for the thoughts of Allah.

After hearing the list of fifteen enemies of Shaitan, our beloved Prophet of Allah (may the peace of Allah be upon him and his progeny) asked Shaitan to name his eleven friends. Upon which, the cursed Shaitan named the following eleven people:

THE FRIENDS OF SHAITAN (THE CURSED ONE)

The first friend of mine is that leader who is a oppressor (Zalim).

My second friend is that business man who does his/ her business by deceiving his / her customers.

My third friend is that "Mo'min" (believer) who drinks alcohol.

My fourth friend is that rich person who is proud of his wealth and who angrily refuses to give money in charity to poor and needy.

My fifth friend is that person who does backbiting (Geebat), who talks to people in such a way that enemity increases between people and who reveals the defects of people.

My sixth friend is that person who kill other human being.

My seventh friend is that person who snatches away the belongings (such as wealth) of an orphan.

My eighth friend is that person whose livelihood is based on collecting interest.

My ninth friend is that person who gives more important to his worldly life rather than giving important to his life after death. This friend of mine prefers to performs those deeds which he know, will bring benefits in this world but in hereafter such deeds will bring loss.

My tenth friend is that person who keep long hopes and delays in asking for forgiveness from Allah.
(Here Maulana gave the example of that person who delays in asking forgiveness from Allah. For instance he said, "people refuse to ask forgiveness from Allah because they say we are young and angel of death is not running after us yet. Therefore these people, who delay in asking for repentance, say we are not going to quit listening to music, we are not going to observe Hijab, or we are not going to keep the beard. These people say that they will do all this after ten or more years. These are the tenth friends of Shaitan, because they keep long hopes and delay in asking for forgiveness from Allah.")

My eleventh friend is that person who performs "Jaadu" (magic) on people.

After naming his eleven friends Shaitan-the cursed one said, "these are my eleven friends who are the worst enemies of Allah". Now the interview of shaitan (the cursed one) was continued by Prophet Mohammed (may the peace of Allah be upon him and his progeny) as follows:

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, tell us why you stop my followers from offering their prayers? What benefits you get out of it?

Shaitan-the cursed one: Whenever your follower recites prayers, my body gets feverish and it starts to shiver, and with a sick body I can't deceive your followers from obeying Allah.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Why do you stop my followers from observing fast (roza) during the month of Ramadhan?

Shaitan-the cursed one: When they fast they put me in prison, and I can't deceive them during the time they fast because I end up in prison and I can't misguide them.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : When my followers prepare to fight in Allah's way, why do you stop them?

Shaitan-the cursed one: When they go to fight for Allah's sake, my hands get tight to my neck, and I can't deceive them by having my hands tight to my neck.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Why do you prevent my followers from performing Hajj?

Shaitan-the cursed one: When they go for Hajj, their movements of going towards Hajj ties my legs. And with legs tied, I cannot misguide your followers from obeying Allahs commands.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : why do you prevent my followers from reciting Holy Quran?

Shaitan-the cursed one: When they recite the Holy Quran, my existence turns into nonexistence. And, without having my existence, how can I deceive your followers from living according to the will of Allah.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Why do you prevent my followers from offering "Doa" (praying to Allah)?

Shaitan-the cursed one: When they recite Doa (such as Doa-e-Komail) I get deaf and dum. How can I deceive your followers without having the ability to speak and ability to listen.o prophet of Allah (s.a.w.) from living the life according to the will of Allah.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, tell me why you prevent my followers from paying Sadaqha?

Shaitan-the cursed one: O Prophet of Allah (s.a.w.), when your follower pay Sadaqha (giving money in charity), it is as that they cut me with a saw in two pieces and throw one pieces of mine in east and other piece in the west.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Why do you get such a strong blow when my followers pay Sadaqha? Why do you get cut into two pieces?

Shaitan-the cursed one: Whenever a person gives his / her money in charity, that person receives three benefits from Allah. The first benefit such person receive is that Allah becomes his / her borrowers. The second benefit such person gets is that Allah makes Heaven in his / her inheritance (such that he / she will be called as an owner of heaven). And, the third benefit he / she receives is that such person gets 700 times increase in his / her wealth from Allah, which in turn this person uses his / her increased wealth for charity.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, now tell me when does a person (who is my follower) gets under your total control?

Shaitan-the cursed one: O Prophet of Allah, your followers gets under my total (absolute) control when they perform three things The first thing is that when your followers becomes stingy ("kanjoos") he gets under my total control. Stingy is the root of all the sins which takes a person towards performing all types of other sins. The second thing is that when a person gradually start forgiving his / her sins. A person who perform such deeds which are against the will of Allah and then after performing such deeds that person does remember it and does not ask for any forgiveness, then that person gets under my absolute control. O Prophet of Allah, any person who performs these three deeds then that person gets under my absolute control.
Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, you know that Allah gave my followers a strong weapon of forgiveness. Whenever, my followers, ask for true forgiveness with an intention of not repeating that sin, Allah forgives them. How do you deal with this problem?

Shaitan-the cursed one: I know O Prophet of Allah, Allah has given them this strong weapon, but I have prepared myself to confront your followers with their strong weapon.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : What method do you have through which you prevent my followers from asking for forgiveness?

Shaitan-the cursed one: O Prophet of Allah, to deal with this problem I have created four different units. Each unit deals with a different age groups of your followers. In each unit group I make your followers perform such deeds which make the repentance of your followers invalid (void).

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : What are these units?

Shaitan-the cursed one: The first unit is that I involve your old men indulging in four sins. I make them lie, I make them accuse someone of something which they have not done, I make them testify falsely, and I make them perfrom without having the complete knowledge of the laws of performing prayers. O Prophet of Allah (s.a.w.) your old men will be offering doas, offering prayers, and reciting obligatory prayers, but if you talk to them you will hear them talking bad about other people, testing the bad deeds of other people without being their witness, and reciting obligatory prayers without knowing all the laws of the prayers. Your old men will not try to learn the laws of prayers because of their ego. Whenever some young men from your Ummat, try to explain the right way of performing Wuzu, your old men will say that you have just entered Islam and now you are trying to teach as how to perform Wuzu. O Prophet of Allah, my second unit is that which takes care of your young man from your Ummath. I do not prevent your young man from reciting prayers, performing Hajj, or doing anything else except that I get them involved in two things. First thing I make them do is that they look at things which are forbidden for them, and they will listen to those things which are forbidden for them. (Here, by things these young men will look at which are forbidden are girls, and things that these young men will listen to is music/songs.)

O Prophet of Allah, my third unit is that which deceives your old ladies. I make your old ladies perform Geebath (backbiting), falsely accuse other people, destroy the character of other men and women, and get interested in doing magic on other men and women.

O Prophet of Allah, my fourth unit is not active, because it is suppose to take care of young girls of Ummath. Since all of your girls are already my soldiers and I have a strong hold over them, I do not get any hard time deceiving them. However, one in one thousand, I find such girl which I see her may be following your way of life, and I will not be able to do anything to deceive her.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, tell me do you get upset when you see any of your soldier get out of your hand and follow Allah's commands?

Shaitan-the cursed one: No, O Prophet of Allah, I don't get upset. I wait till that person performs any good deed, and then I go to that person again and deceive him / her so that he / she feels that he did a favour to Allah by performing such a good deed.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : You make that person feel that he did favour to Allah?

Shaitan-the cursed one: Yes, O Prophet of Allah, that person goes around after performing a good deed and tells people what he did, such as that I recited namaz, I observed fast, I paid so much money to that person, or I helped that person in his bad times.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, how do you deceive those followers of mine who try their best not to get deceived by you?

Shaitan-the cursed one: Allah made one deed which if your followers performed it with right intention and at right time they can never get deceived by me. And that deed is Namaz (Salat/obligatory prayers). But, to solve this problem, what I did is that with every one of your followers I have assigned one of my soldier whose name is "Mutawaqee". And, his job is to make your follower lazy and involved in such activities due to which your follower recites namaz at the last time. When your follower recites namaz (salat) in last minute, he / she recites it in such a way that his namaz is not acceptable to Allah.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, since you know so much about Islam and its followers, why don't you ask Allah for forgiveness?

Comment by maulana Sadiq Hasan: Here Shaitan the cursed one gave a true Satanic answer. He recited five Ayath from our Holy Quran and gave answer. Since we are not so much interested in why Shaitan is not asking for his forgiveness, and we are interested in why we don't ask for forgiveness, I will skip the details of his answer.

Shaitan-the cursed one: O Prophet of Allah, Allah does not want me to ask forgiveness. What can I do? (Here Shaitan used the illogical proof from Holy Quran. However, you will find some Muslims using such proves in defending themselves. Such as they argue that Allah does not call me to perform Hajj or to offer prayers.)

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, I heard that sometimes you feel that as somebody threw a heavy stone on your head which breaks your head in several pieces?

Shaitan-the cursed one: O Prophet of Allah, yes it is true, Whenever your followers truly ask Allah for true repentance, I feel like that.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : I heard that sometimes you feel like someone is slapping you?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Yes, when your follower recite Quran with right pronounciation.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : When do you get to the bottom part of Hell?

Shaitan-the cursed one: When your follower performs a good deed towards their parents or towards their family members.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : I heard that sometimes your whole body gets pain?

Shaitan-the cursed one: Yes, when your follower pay in charity without showing off.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : I heard that sometimes you feel that someone is whipping you?

Shaitan - the cursed one : That person who does not business with deceiving people.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : When do you get hurt the most?

Shaitan - the cursed one : When your followers remember Allah during their hours of day and night.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : With whom do you fear the most?

Shaitan - the cursed one : I fear those one who recite salat (prayers) in the first row of jamat.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Which people among my followers you have choosen them to be your permanent soldiers?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Any of your follower who used any type of intoxicating beaverages.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Which person makes you laugh?

Shaitan - the cursed one : That person who encourages other to commit sins.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : With whom do you speak the most?

Shaitan - the cursed one : A person who lies the most.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Who is the most pleasing to you?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Any man who gives divorce to an innocent women.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Do you have any more hands?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Yes, that person who delays in offering his obligatory prayers.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan where do you stay the most?

Shaitan - the cursed one : A place where Na-Mehram men and women get together without any separation or observing Hijaab, that is my place to stay.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Where do you meet people?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Bazaars (shopping mails). I try to make buyers deceive sellers and sellers deceive buyers. I try to make men do their business with women and women to do business with men. I try to make people do all types of sins in Bazaars (shopping mails).

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : What do you read?

Shaitan - the cursed one : I read songs.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : What is your way of calling people towards committing sins?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Music and songs. Whenever your follower listens to music he / she comes towards me.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : What is your book?

Shaitan - the cursed one : My books are playing cards.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Who is your helper?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Any person who gives losses to Muslims.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : What do you eat?

Shaitan - the cursed one : I eat everything which is earned by forbidden ways of earnings or by not paying the Khums.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : What do you drink?

Shaitan - the cursed one : I drink Alcohol.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : What is your dessert (any sweet thing eaten after food)?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Gheebat (back-biting).

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Do you have any desires?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Every false commitment is my desire.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Are you thankful for anything?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Yes, I am thankful to those men and women who indulge in sins after asking Allah for forgiveness.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Do you relax?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Yes, when your followers misses Fajr (morning) prayers.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Do you get any rewards from my followers?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Yes, whenever, your followers break their relationships with their relatives or neighbours.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Do you have any companions?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Yes, that person who have sex with his wife without saying "Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem" ( Here sex reffers to Allowed Intercourse, ZINAA - Un Allowed Sex is Haraam Anyway) and that person whose earnings are though unislamic ways.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : What deed of my follower makes you angry?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Any mother when she tries to make her son (or daughter) fast or offer prayers.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Are there any men among my followers whom you can not possibly misguide?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Yes, any man who does not look at Na-mehram girl / woman intentionally.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Are there any women among my followers whom you can not possibly misguide?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Yes, that women who observes Hijaab and that women who listens to her husband.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Shaitan, out of the men and women you have described, do you have any special men or women that you love the most?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Yes! among women I love that women who do not observe Hijaab and among men who is proud and that men who is a sinful Aalim (religious scholar).

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Who is your most hateful men?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Four men : a) Humble rich men. b) Aalim who practices what he preaches. c) Young men who ask for forgiveness. d) Old men who fear Allah.

Our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) : Are you alone or do have any companions?

Shaitan - the cursed one : Yes. I have some companions who are sitting at mosque to deceive its visitors. My companions make the visitors of Allah's mosque talk about such thing which make these visitors get bad deeds instead of good deeds. Other companions of mine's job is to make the wise followers of your's think of their bad deeds as few and good deeds as many. Some companions of mine when they see someone giving money in charity or helping someone for Allah's sake, make that person tell other people what he is giving in charity or what he is doing for others.

Then Shaitan - the cursed one said then says: O Prophet of Allah I have talked to you in much detail. I would like to tell you that you are working towards taking people to heaven and I am working towards taking people to Hell. Then after this Shaitan - the cursed one did his salaam to our beloved Prophet (s.a.w.) and he disappeared.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
12-05-2006, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Assalaamu Alaykum brothers and sisters,

to the non-muslims, peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

Do the members of this forum believe that the West is waging a war against islam or against terrorism?

what do members think?

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Well, Bush defined his presidential authority in a very unusual manner.

His definition of presidential authority allows him to ignore U.N. recommendations concerning Iraq and justify an illegal invasion using bogus and highly questionable intel, because, survey said, he had an old score to settle on behalf of his father.

His definition of presidential authority allows him to label all U.S. citizens who, heaven forbid, question his authority concerning the war in Iraq, as 'subversives' and monitor our communications without justified cause.

His definition of presidential authority allows him to interfere with, or re-define acceptable media coverage concerning the war on terror... in other words, anyone who freely publishes material that could be construed as dangerous to government agendas (what they call propaganda), can be accused of commiting a felony: Assisting in the promotion of a known terrorist group (complete list of all groups published online and updated regularly). If you have a special publication that can effectively demonstrate and expose certain government induced misconceptions... you're really in trouble!

It doesn't even matter that we clipped his wings and democrats took congress! He's still causing trouble! Man, this guy is ready to mess everything up if he doesn't get his way. Well, I'll save those details for my Live Journal... but, OMG!

Do I really need to spell it out for you???

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
12-05-2006, 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by kraze
You know what this is . . this is mass genocide of true muslims across the world. Muhammad (PBUH) if he was alive now, what do you think he would say?
He would say: Hold fast to the rope of Allah and be not divided - and he would lead you guys into a full on battle! I bet he's saying that right now, in some place, in some time.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-06-2006, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
I disagree. There are several distinctions that need to be made here, first the acts of a state vs. the acts of private organizations. Secondly there is the issue of what is being targeted, are the military or government targeted or civilians soft targets like a subway?

Just because America attacked Iraq does not mean a Muslim in the US may on private initiative attack the US. States that fight states in a conventional war (with uniforms and all) are the definiton of 'war'. If private individuals wage a war (usually through means of sabotage or terrorism, without uniforms) they are considered illegal combatants or terrorists.

Now, where Syria to declare war on the US for invading Iraq and start a conventional war it would be very much legitimate. But private groups or militia's simply don't have that right, because they do not represent any nation. Even if they say they represent a nation there would be no formal way in which they legitimize their sovereignty. Of course, Al-quada in Iraq might claim to fight for all Muslims, but who is to say? They do not have the formal and official authority to speak in the name of all Muslims.

Now, if there would still be a Caliph with an actual uniformed army this would not be an issue. Quite frankly I think this attitude that any private group can take up arms is very much one of the core problems in the Muslim world at the moment. There are an enormous amount of private militias that actually undermine the strength of the official Muslim governments, essentially making the Muslim world weaker instead than stronger.

In short, allowing private, non-governmental groups to wage wars is a recipe for chaos.
i dont want to talk about particular groups, i am more interested in seeing who agrees and disagrees with certain principles.

i also think you are making a false distinction that would have denied the right of the french or other occupied peoples to fight back against their german occupiers in WWII because they didnt wear uniforms.

so you do not see how sometimes, under some circumstances the uniform issue is false? the UK and US certainly backed the french resistence and didnt see them as a false or illegial force because of this, they also backed groups in iraq and afghanistan that didnt fight in uniforms so this is hypocrisy surely?

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Agnostic
12-06-2006, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i dont want to talk about particular groups, i am more interested in seeing who agrees and disagrees with certain principles.

i also think you are making a false distinction that would have denied the right of the french or other occupied peoples to fight back against their german occupiers in WWII because they didnt wear uniforms.

so you do not see how sometimes, under some circumstances the uniform issue is false? the UK and US certainly backed the french resistence and didnt see them as a false or illegial force because of this, they also backed groups in iraq and afghanistan that didnt fight in uniforms so this is hypocrisy surely?

Abu Abdullah
During WWII the partisans fought against the German military and went after targets that supported it, not saying that civilians never got hurt or killed but they did not purposely target civilians. True they didn't wear uniforms but they where fighting for a legitimate government and took orders from allied superiors.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-07-2006, 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by Agnostic
During WWII the partisans fought against the German military and went after targets that supported it, not saying that civilians never got hurt or killed but they did not purposely target civilians. True they didn't wear uniforms but they where fighting for a legitimate government and took orders from allied superiors.
they targetted those they saw as occupiers, if you look at the partisans in eastern europe they certainly targetted civilians as did the western european counterparts.

that doesnt justify it or condemn it, i am just saying double standards are being applied here.

like i said before, what does it matter whether it is a legitimate government and who defines legitimate? Germany and Italy recognised the vichi regime as did many other countries and if they had won the war it would be true that we would refer to the partisans as a terrorists according to modern day terminology.
Reply

GARY
12-08-2006, 05:54 AM
Originally Posted by kraze
What Islam needs to do is, we know we all feel this in our hearts, our soul yearns to tell this, a true muslim can see it. Brothers the time is close when we have to show ourselfs, show our imaan and show our dedication to Allah (swt). If you remember what Muhammad (pbuh) had to go through and all the pain and suffering caused to him by the qurayshi clans then this is a similar situation today. We need to win the hearts and minds of as many brothers and sisters as we can. Increase our imaan, pray as many times a day if not 5 times, read the quran and try to understand its meaning and more importantly ACT upon its meaning is a must. Finally help each other out, try not to upset a fellow muslim brother as this reduces ummah but try to help each other and be considerate to one another. GO one step ahead. A few more things to finish.

Secondly, the war of
Act in what way?
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-08-2006, 10:49 AM
I don't think that the Bush administration itself is anti-islamic. I don't think they are out to destroy Islam. Islam just happens to be the ruling force in the place they decided to invade / conquer / exploit.

I do think that they feel tempted to play up anti-islamic rhetoric though, because their base includes a lot of fundamentalist christians who ARE out to destroy Islam (and any other non-christian religion for that matter).

They definitely exploited 9/11 and the resulting islamophobia to sell their invasion plans. These were plans they already had though, prior to 9/11. Plans to control a key strategic region and resource (oil).
Reply

KAding
12-08-2006, 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i dont want to talk about particular groups, i am more interested in seeing who agrees and disagrees with certain principles.

i also think you are making a false distinction that would have denied the right of the french or other occupied peoples to fight back against their german occupiers in WWII because they didnt wear uniforms.

so you do not see how sometimes, under some circumstances the uniform issue is false? the UK and US certainly backed the french resistence and didnt see them as a false or illegial force because of this, they also backed groups in iraq and afghanistan that didnt fight in uniforms so this is hypocrisy surely?

Abu Abdullah
This boils down to the second important distinction I made in my post. I don't dispute that Iraqis or Afghans have the right to fight the occuption forces. What I do dispute is that:
1. They may attack civilian targets (which seems their primary tactic at the moment)
2. Any Muslim anywhere has the right to attack any Western country, which seems a popular enough sentiment as well.

What you see is that the French resistance did indeed accept these rules. They did not infiltrate into Germany to detonate car bombs on markets for example.

If we do not at least set up these restrictions Western civilians would be just as entitled to attack any Muslim in any country, especially their own. If indeed - as you seem to believe - this is a war between the West and Islam, then why would any American (or American militia, there are plenty) not be allowed to hunt down any Muslim they can find in America? Just like in fact the Muhajedeen are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Where no Western humanitarian worker, civilian contractor or journalist is in fact safe?

So, as a compromise, I would say them not wearing uniforms is not really an issue as far as resistance fighters IN IRAQ are concerned who attack the OCCUPATION FORCES. Anyone who does not feel bound by these rules (Mulims in American attacking Americans or Iraqis in Iraq targeting civilians) can I believe be identified as a terrorist and dealt with accordingly.

So in short, there are some limits. While I believe both the Iraqi and Afghan resistance are doing more harm than good, I do think they have a right to fight the occupation forces. But what is happening in Iraq now is something completely different. In Afghanistan the Taliban are fighting a bit more traditional war, but even here car bombings and suicide bombings on civilian targets are becoming more popular.
Reply

Woodrow
12-08-2006, 12:19 PM
The idea of exploiting the midesat for oil is passe. The western world has absolutly no desire to depend on Mideastern oil. Right now the public and most importantly the oil industry is waking up to the fact that mideastern oil is very expensive and highly unreliable. The oil is expensive to drill for, transportation costs makes it even more expensive. Nearly any other source is lower cost. With the current ability to drill deeper, the opening of reserves in Canada and the US, the reduced costs of transportation, for the western market, the domestic oil of the America's is the world's lowest cost oil.

Mideastern oil supplies are depleting. The higher grade top oil is long gone and all the remains is the larger portion of oil, which is low grade and more costly to pump out, transport and refine to usable products.

The irony of oil is the cheapest oil to obtain is of the highest grade, as it is lighter, closer to the surface and of low enough viscosity to be easily pumped.
after that is gone or severly depleted the remaining oil is much deeper, very expensive to redrill for, and very costly to refine for gasoline purposes.

Very many of the oil wells through out the mid-east are old enough to be in need of reworking. That is an expensive undertaking. Plus it is going to be very difficult to find any major oil companies willing to invest in that undertaking. I do not see the big 5 that were the major leasers jumping to the chance to reworking their rigs in that area of the world.

People keep forgetting that although those countries sell the oil, they are not the people who get it out of the ground, transport it and refine it into usable products. Without the big 5 oil companies investing in oil rigs for that ares, the oil is just sitting 5 miles beneath the surface and of no value.

Oil companies are getting less reluctant to invest in Mid-east oil and with the oil reserves very reduced I see less petroleum companies wanting to bother with mid-eastern oil. I think the unrest in the mideast is going to result in acceleration of the decline of mid-eastern oil production.

In my opinion no matter what the war is all about, one thing it is not about is oil. Because of Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran oil from the mid- east has been greatly diminished. And the prices of gasoline in the west declines as less mideastern oil is used and more domestic oil is used. The western world can no longer afford to subsidize mid-eastern nations by buying their oil. It is no longer a feasible product and is too costly even if it was free.

So to answer the question of is the war against terrorists or Islam? I see it as being against terrorism, which is the result of instability in the mid-eastern economy. The oil based economy of the mideast is in its decline and the leaders of the countries are looking to other enterprises to replce dwindling oil profits. Many are looking to western markets and to some people in the area that is seen as an infringement of the western world into mideastern lives. The result being a feeling of western invasion and some of the people trying to fight it as a physical war.
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-08-2006, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The western world has absolutly no desire to depend on Mideastern oil.

It isn't about the US depending on mideastern oil, they have plenty of their own and a very good source from Canada.

The oil interest (which I agree is not the only interest) is about CONTROLLING oil. Europe and China are both potential economic rivals, and if the US can keep control of the middle east oil source it would be good leverage against those rising powers. This was key to the initial neocon agenda (before Bush was put in office).
Reply

Fishman
12-08-2006, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Assalaamu Alaykum brothers and sisters,

to the non-muslims, peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

Do the members of this forum believe that the West is waging a war against islam or against terrorism?

Bush's recent comments that they are waging a war against people who wish to establish an evil empire from spain to indonesia clearly shows that he is against the implimentation of islam as a complete state system.

he is saying his war is against those who want the kalafate, as such a thing is part of islam then his war is against islam not with any part of it but with islam as a whole.

i have been reading articles from some neo-con think tanks and this is their exact aim, to destroy those who want to re-establish the kalafate so are these people by their words and now not just their actions at war with islam if they were ever anything else before?

what do members think?

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
:sl:
No, I don't think that this is purely a war on Islam, although it could easily become one. However, I doubt that this is purely about terrorism either. The threat of terrorism is a very convenient excuse for any country to spread it's political power. Some countries, such as ancient Rome and Nazi Germany, had to commit attacks themselves and blame them on other people, but 'fortunately' for the US, a series of real terror attacks have occured. This means that Bush gets to kill two birds with one stone: he stops terrorism (and thus gets better election results), and gets the chance to establish US-friendly countries in place of those that he hates. The perfect plan for any dishonest politician.
:w:
Reply

Skillganon
12-08-2006, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
So to answer the question of is the war against terrorists or Islam? I see it as being against terrorism, which is the result of instability in the mid-eastern economy. The oil based economy of the mideast is in its decline and the leaders of the countries are looking to other enterprises to replce dwindling oil profits. Many are looking to western markets and to some people in the area that is seen as an infringement of the western world into mideastern lives. The result being a feeling of western invasion and some of the people trying to fight it as a physical war.
When one put it so oblique as to choose between A or B. I came to the Judgment what ever this War is about it is not A therefore it must be B.

I see very bad reasoning for that. All one can do is give argument for or against one choice or another but the true reasons, (and bear it is not alway's for one reason) that lies behind it are known to the policy makers. One has to face it our leader's are no honest. They really do not shine those qualities.

EDIT: I see their is more of an attack on Muslim and Islam be it outwardly or from within.
Reply

Woodrow
12-08-2006, 10:07 PM
I see it more an attack on Muslim and Islam be it outwardly or from within.
We may see it different because we both live in different parts of the Western World. Here on this end I see Islam being very well tolerated and even exerted a lot of influnce in the areas of high Muslim presence. It is also extremely well accepted in Mexico. I believe Mexico will be predominatly Muslim in the foreseeable future.

I will admit there does seem to be some problems in Canada in the Toronto area. But Canada has a much smaller Muslim population.

The Muslim Population is quite large, however there are few Masjids and the existing ones are quite small. But, you will find many Muslims during prayer time in the larger cities praying in the open plazas and numerous parks.

Canada Mexico and The USA are the only Western Countries I have personaly been in within the past 5 years. It is based on what I have seen as my reason for saying I do not see any war on Islam. But, reading these threads it seems the situation in the UK is much different than here.
Reply

Skillganon
12-08-2006, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
We may see it different because we both live in different parts of the Western World. Here on this end I see Islam being very well tolerated and even exerted a lot of influnce in the areas of high Muslim presence. It is also extremely well accepted in Mexico. I believe Mexico will be predominatly Muslim in the foreseeable future.

I will admit there does seem to be some problems in Canada in the Toronto area. But Canada has a much smaller Muslim population.

The Muslim Population is quite large, however there are few Masjids and the existing ones are quite small. But, you will find many Muslims during prayer time in the larger cities praying in the open plazas and numerous parks.

Canada Mexico and The USA are the only Western Countries I have personaly been in within the past 5 years. It is based on what I have seen as my reason for saying I do not see any war on Islam. But, reading these threads it seems the situation in the UK is much different than here.
One must also clarify and distinguish between the people (be it individual, groups) within the society i.e. USA, and the people (be it individual groups) that are in authority or and their foreign policy i.e. their goals and intention in other parts of the world.

One of the resounding statement one will hear is we are bringing democracy to the world, we are fighting terrorism. How true that statement must sound to the lay person. Well you can Judge.

So what is apparent in front of one's eye from one's geographical sphere, the attitude of people around one, is not neccessarily inclusive to the intention of other people especially their intention in the other parts of the world. The manifestation of it is clear.

I do wan't to clarify this: if I do make statement mainly with certain emphasis on U.S or other western countries I am not exactly alluding to the general public within those geographic or what is going on within although this can give hints.
Nor I am trying to say something bad about the american or british people.

Oyeah One more thing to add, Don't think I am blaming all on west or something, but their is enough blame to go on about. However I am pointing to the current activities of the western countries on other parts of the world.
Reply

Keltoi
12-09-2006, 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
We may see it different because we both live in different parts of the Western World. Here on this end I see Islam being very well tolerated and even exerted a lot of influnce in the areas of high Muslim presence. It is also extremely well accepted in Mexico. I believe Mexico will be predominatly Muslim in the foreseeable future.

I will admit there does seem to be some problems in Canada in the Toronto area. But Canada has a much smaller Muslim population.

The Muslim Population is quite large, however there are few Masjids and the existing ones are quite small. But, you will find many Muslims during prayer time in the larger cities praying in the open plazas and numerous parks.

Canada Mexico and The USA are the only Western Countries I have personaly been in within the past 5 years. It is based on what I have seen as my reason for saying I do not see any war on Islam. But, reading these threads it seems the situation in the UK is much different than here.
Mexico predominatly Muslim? I don't buy that for a minute. The Catholic tradition in Mexico and Latin America is old and a huge part of the culture down there. I think some Muslims need to settle down with this idea they have that Islam is somehow going to dominate everything. Yes, many Muslims are immigrating to the U.S. and elsewhere, that doesn't equate to some Muslim takeover.
Reply

Woodrow
12-09-2006, 01:30 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Mexico predominatly Muslim? I don't buy that for a minute. The Catholic tradition in Mexico and Latin America is old and a huge part of the culture down there. I think some Muslims need to settle down with this idea they have that Islam is somehow going to dominate everything. Yes, many Muslims are immigrating to the U.S. and elsewhere, that doesn't equate to some Muslim takeover.
Catholochism is essentialy the "Official" religion in Mexico. But most Mexicans actually practice a modified form. Based on Mayan tradition. Islam seems to be making more headway there than any place else. At this time it is the States that are predominatly Mayan that are reverting the fastest.

Islam Is Gaining a Foothold in Chiapas
By Jens Glüsing

Long a bastion of Catholicism, southern Mexico is quickly turning into a battleground for soul-savers. Islam, too, is gaining a foothold and the indigenous Mayans are converting by the hundreds. The Mexican government is worried about a culture clash in their own backyard.
Source: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...358223,00.html

Starting in the 1980s or early 1990s many protestant enabgelicals have been going to Mexico and have swayed many of the Mexicans from Catholochism. It seems to be those who have become dissastisfied with both and are now turning to Islam. I know of several Masjids(Mosques) in Mexico City and Guadalajara, However most of the Mexican Muslims prefer to pray outdoors and these is bringing much attention to Islam in Mexico.

I do not see any Islamic takeover by the immigration of Muslims, but I do see a very large and very noticible increase in the number of reverts on almost a daily basis.

I won't be at all surprised to see Mexico become predominatly Muslim through the reverts.
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-09-2006, 03:21 AM
I think I can see where islamophobia comes from. It isn't just irrational fear of terrorists. It isn't only KKK mentality.

Islam is one of if not THE fastest spreading religion in the world, by conversion and especially by breeding. Add to that that Muslims have a code of conduct so well defined that many wish to use it as rules of governance.

If Islam overtakes Christianity as the dominant religion here the legal system as it now exists may be in peril. The muslim majority may decide to push Sharia law on the rest of us. That is a scary thought to non-muslims.

I'm not entirely sure how rational that concern is. But it is a concern.

Christianity is very much tamed in the west by secularism. We don't let Christians tell us how to live our lives much anymore. Heresy isn't illegal. Atheists can testify in court. Stores are even open on Sundays now.

Once they become the majority in our democracy, will Muslims be willing to tolerate the secular MULTI cultural society that we've worked so hard to establish? Or will they tear it down and replace it with Sharia law?
Reply

Woodrow
12-09-2006, 03:34 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I think I can see where islamophobia comes from. It isn't just irrational fear of terrorists. It isn't only KKK mentality.

Islam is one of if not THE fastest spreading religion in the world, by conversion and especially by breeding. Add to that that Muslims have a code of conduct so well defined that many wish to use it as rules of governance.

If Islam overtakes Christianity as the dominant religion here the legal system as it now exists may be in peril. The muslim majority may decide to push Sharia law on the rest of us. That is a scary thought to non-muslims.

I'm not entirely sure how rational that concern is. But it is a concern.

Christianity is very much tamed in the west by secularism. We don't let Christians tell us how to live our lives much anymore. Heresy isn't illegal. Atheists can testify in court. Stores are even open on Sundays now.

Once they become the majority in our democracy, will Muslims be willing to tolerate the secular MULTI cultural society that we've worked so hard to establish? Or will they tear it down and replace it with Sharia law?
I would say your fear is hypothetical and should not be a major concern. The only way sharia law would be implanted is if it where the choice of the people and then the concept would be welcomed. So the fear would be a moot point.
Reply

Skillganon
12-09-2006, 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I think I can see where islamophobia comes from. It isn't just irrational fear of terrorists. It isn't only KKK mentality.
Well, the Islamophobia we are refering to is Just hate of Islam for the sake of Hate and spreading fear, be it out of ignorance or intent.


Islam is one of if not THE fastest spreading religion in the world, by conversion and especially by breeding. Add to that that Muslims have a code of conduct so well defined that many wish to use it as rules of governance.
Well we as a muslim desire nothing but Islam. Hence we are Muslim.

If Islam overtakes Christianity as the dominant religion here the legal system as it now exists may be in peril. The muslim majority may decide to push Sharia law on the rest of us. That is a scary thought to non-muslims.
Well one is talking hypothetical, and it is not really foreseen if Muslim becomes a majority or the majorit will adhere to Islam.

I'm not entirely sure how rational that concern is. But it is a concern.

Christianity is very much tamed in the west by secularism. We don't let Christians tell us how to live our lives much anymore. Heresy isn't illegal. Atheists can testify in court. Stores are even open on Sundays now.
I don't know why atheist won't be able to testify in courts. Or why stores can't be open on sunday's.

Once they become the majority in our democracy, will Muslims be willing to tolerate the secular MULTI cultural society that we've worked so hard to establish? Or will they tear it down and replace it with Sharia law?
I think one should set aside one's fear of Islam. If you are asking do we believe in Islam yes, and all that goes with it (according to the Quran and the Sunnah).

One is speaking hypothically, and their is a need of Islam to implemented in muslim countries let alone being implemented here.
Reply

i_m_tipu
12-09-2006, 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
This boils down to the second important distinction I made in my post. I don't dispute that Iraqis or Afghans have the right to fight the occuption forces. What I do dispute is that:
1. They may attack civilian targets (which seems their primary tactic at the moment)
2. Any Muslim anywhere has the right to attack any Western country, which seems a popular enough sentiment as well.

What you see is that the French resistance did indeed accept these rules. They did not infiltrate into Germany to detonate car bombs on markets for example.

If we do not at least set up these restrictions Western civilians would be just as entitled to attack any Muslim in any country, especially their own. If indeed - as you seem to believe - this is a war between the West and Islam, then why would any American (or American militia, there are plenty) not be allowed to hunt down any Muslim they can find in America? Just like in fact the Muhajedeen are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Where no Western humanitarian worker, civilian contractor or journalist is in fact safe?

So, as a compromise, I would say them not wearing uniforms is not really an issue as far as resistance fighters IN IRAQ are concerned who attack the OCCUPATION FORCES. Anyone who does not feel bound by these rules (Mulims in American attacking Americans or Iraqis in Iraq targeting civilians) can I believe be identified as a terrorist and dealt with accordingly.

So in short, there are some limits. While I believe both the Iraqi and Afghan resistance are doing more harm than good, I do think they have a right to fight the occupation forces. But what is happening in Iraq now is something completely different. In Afghanistan the Taliban are fighting a bit more traditional war, but even here car bombings and suicide bombings on civilian targets are becoming more popular.
Hello KAding,

I do not understand the purpose of all Attack in Iraq or Afgan.

Some say some events are intentionally created by the western for to broke the unity.

Ask a question in your mind

Do you see picture or do you getting the news from both side. Answer is no.
So why anyone believe Israeli/american and their created media. It’s a proven fact they are a big liar. They can do anything to achieve their goal.

I believe they only provide news only that much what can not harm them. And I also want to believe many people know it.

Many countries fought their own Liberation War.

What felling do they have for those people who are from their own country but helping/fueling the enemy greatly?
What felling does u have for them who assist those destroyers who destroyed your thousand year’s culture and security?

We cannot /should not/ must not ………………… criticize those who are defending their own religion/dream/culture/security/home/family.

We should criticize the invader.
We should criticize those who’s pack of lie destroyed and destroying a entire civilization of Iraq and Afghan.
Their action creating and fueling the entire thing.
They are the only responsible for any wrong doing of anywhere simply bcoz they stared/created and still doing the same massacre for a pack of lie.

Do u how many people suffering by their action?
The entire Muslim Ummah.

A Muslim will feel the same feelings what a brother of Iraq or Afgan(it does not matter what the state is) is feeling.
Reply

KAding
12-09-2006, 11:01 AM
Lets keep some perspective here. This same movement of Muslims that is fighting a Jihad against the US is essentially also at war with:
1. India
2. Russia
3. Ethiopia
4. Thailand
5. Philippines
6. Niger
7. Israel
And last but not least
8. Most muslim states and their leaders

This makes me think the American 'war on terror' is not really the cause of this conflict, since it is so much broader and older. Isn't it all related to this desire to recreate the caliphate and liberate Muslims from kafir/munafiq rule? This goal is a threat to the national interest and even territorial integrity of many states, causing so many conflicts?

I could be wrong though :).
Reply

Skillganon
12-09-2006, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Lets keep some perspective here. This same movement of Muslims that is fighting a Jihad against the US is essentially also at war with:
1. India
2. Russia
3. Ethiopia
4. Thailand
5. Philippines
6. Niger
7. Israel
And last but not least
8. Most muslim states and their leaders

This makes me think the American 'war on terror' is not really the cause of this conflict, since it is so much broader and older. Isn't it all related to this desire to recreate the caliphate and liberate Muslims from kafir/munafiq rule? This goal is a threat to the national interest and even territorial integrity of many states, causing so many conflicts?

I could be wrong though :).
Well, that is the problem, when someone see al-qaeda everywhere. They did a very good Job getting the al-qaeda terrorist in everyone mind's so it's easy to jump to conclusion.
They are not fighting their own people.
Reply

KAding
12-09-2006, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Well, that is the problem, when someone see al-qaeda everywhere. They did a very good Job getting the al-qaeda terrorist in everyone mind's so it's easy to jump to conclusion.
Who's 'they'? The US?

Anyway, all I'm saying is that most Muslim resistance conflicts have both a local and more international part. You saw this very well in Afghanistan during the 1980's, where many Muslims from all over the world joined in the fight. The same is happening or has happened in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Somalia, Iraq and Algeria. There is a global Jihadist movement which seeks to reinforce local groups fighting non-Muslims or Munafiq. Al-Qaeda does not equate this movement, but it is nevertheless part of it.

They are not fighting their own people.
Again, who is 'they'? Al-qaeda? And who are 'their own people'? Muslims?
Reply

Keltoi
12-09-2006, 05:36 PM
Thankfully the world isn't that black and white....
Reply

Skillganon
12-09-2006, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Who's 'they'? The US?

Anyway, all I'm saying is that most Muslim resistance conflicts have both a local and more international part. You saw this very well in Afghanistan during the 1980's, where many Muslims from all over the world joined in the fight. The same is happening or has happened in Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Somalia, Iraq and Algeria. There is a global Jihadist movement which seeks to reinforce local groups fighting non-Muslims or Munafiq. Al-Qaeda does not equate this movement, but it is nevertheless part of it.
Why do you think this Resistance Groups are springing up?
Who are the non-muslim/munafiq theya re fighting in their land?

Again, who is 'they'? Al-qaeda? And who are 'their own people'? Muslims?
Exactly, the use of al-qaeda is used to spring up certain image in mind when one see muslim resistance around the world.
Reply

Muezzin
12-09-2006, 05:38 PM
Threads merged.
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-09-2006, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I would say your fear is hypothetical and should not be a major concern. The only way sharia law would be implanted is if it where the choice of the people and then the concept would be welcomed. So the fear would be a moot point.
If muslims become the majority then it WILL be the choice of the people, just not of those of us in the now non-muslim minority. That was my point.
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-09-2006, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Well one is talking hypothetical, and it is not really foreseen if Muslim becomes a majority or the majorit will adhere to Islam.
Not sure I understand what you are saying here. Muslims won't adhere to Islam?

I don't know why atheist won't be able to testify in courts. Or why stores can't be open on sunday's.
The Sundays thing still exists in some places. THe idea is that SUnday is the Lord's day and Christians forbidded people to work on it. Even if you weren't christian you were not allowed to have a store open on Sunday. In many places you still can't buy alcohol on sundays.

Atheists couldn't testify in court until sometime in the mid 1900s. The logic was that if you don't fear eternal punishment you have no reason to tell the truth.
Reply

Keltoi
12-09-2006, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If muslims become the majority then it WILL be the choice of the people, just not of those of us in the now non-muslim minority. That was my point.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest we don't have anything to worry about....
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-09-2006, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest we don't have anything to worry about....
I don't hold this as a serious fear. I don't lose sleep over this lol. I'm just saying its not hard to see how somebody could go through this logic and become anti-islamic.
Reply

Woodrow
12-09-2006, 09:54 PM
Fear is a very strong force. When we experience a feeling of fear our logic dictates we find a cause for it. If we do not see an immediate cause, possible threats become strong realities.
Reply

KAding
12-09-2006, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest we don't have anything to worry about....
I agree. There are actually just two groups who seem to believe Islam will be taking over 'our countries'. Right-wing extremists and Muslim extremists.

I think the rise of Islam in Europe is already slowing due to:
1. Falling birth rates among second and third generation immigrant children
2. Increasingly strict immigration laws.
3. A natural proces that eventually affects any immigrant group: assimilation (kafirization if you will :rollseyes)
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-11-2015, 08:59 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-21-2008, 09:35 AM
  3. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-20-2007, 07:19 AM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-12-2007, 07:58 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-11-2006, 12:12 AM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!