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GARY
11-05-2006, 10:34 PM
I stumbled across this site and it raised some questions for me. What does the quran say about homosexuals? How do you feel about those that claim to be both muslim and gay or lesbian?

Please visit the site and tell me what you think of this.

P.S. I am straight.


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Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-05-2006, 10:40 PM
:sl:

Please do not link to such sites.

Regarding the Islamic view of homosexuality, please see:

http://www.islamicboard.com/534729-post17.html

From this thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...dead-sea.html?
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GARY
11-05-2006, 10:47 PM
Did you visit the site? It was non-offensive and they were only explaining their position. They have some interesting views that would provide interesting discussion.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-05-2006, 10:49 PM
Yes and it was disgusting to say the least and was a twisted, deranged form of Islam. We cannot allow such links.
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Woodrow
11-05-2006, 10:50 PM
If you search through the forums you will find that this is a subject that has been discussed many times. The Islamic beliefs are quite clear as to the posistion on this subject.
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GARY
11-05-2006, 11:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ähmed
Yes and it was disgusting to say the least and was a twisted, deranged form of Islam. We cannot allow such links.
With due respect, but "disgusting"? Within 4 minutes of my posting the thread, you had already removed the link. Hardly enough time to find anything "disgusting". In fact, hardly enough time to find anything.

The site is just a collection of links to some biographys of a few individuals, and essays and articles explaining the positions of the site operators.

I find it difficult to find anything disgusting, merely discussion on their opinions, and their difficulty accepting themselves as muslim and gay. They do not linger extensively on the 'gay' topic, but merely discuss their struggle for self-acceptance and acceptance in the community.

Perhaps you could point out the disgusting links, I admit that I did not visit them all, and perhaps you found one that I did not visit.
Thanks.
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GARY
11-05-2006, 11:21 PM
I am not defending homosexuality as I also don't agree with it, I am just trying to get some idea of what some of you as muslims think. What do you think of the people that say they were always attracted to the same sex since a child?
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Paul Williams
11-05-2006, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
I am not defending homosexuality as I also don't agree with it, I am just trying to get some idea of what some of you as muslims think. What do you think of the people that say they were always attracted to the same sex since a child?
Gary, I notice that your religion/way of life is 'undisclosed'. Which is fine. What though are your grounds for thinking that homosexuality is not something you agree with?
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GARY
11-05-2006, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Paul Williams
Gary, I notice that your religion/way of life is 'undisclosed'. Which is fine. What though are your grounds for thinking that homosexuality is not something you agree with?
I think perhaps the society I grew up in, until recently it has been frowned upon. I grew up in a time when "fags" should stay in the closet.

I could say that it just doesn't seem natural or moral, and that that is because it is not, and that this comes from God, and that is why it does not seem natural. But in my search for absolute truth about things, I must consider all possibilities.
Perhaps it only seems unnatural and immoral to me because that is what I was taught all my life.
I must accept also my own bias from my perspective as a straight male that is attracted only to beautiful women.
It is hard to say if you are not in that position (gay), I will never know, and am relieved to not have it as an issue. I am relieved that I like women.
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Abdul Fattah
11-06-2006, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
I am not defending homosexuality as I also don't agree with it, I am just trying to get some idea of what some of you as muslims think. What do you think of the people that say they were always attracted to the same sex since a child?
Normally sexual atraction doesn't come untill puberty. Every boy that grew up to be a straight guy went trough this period where he thought girls were stupid. So I don't believe those that say they were born like that.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 01:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by steve
Normally sexual atraction doesn't come untill puberty. Every boy that grew up to be a straight guy went trough this period where he thought girls were stupid. So I don't believe those that say they were born like that.
Fair enough, but some have described the onset of puberty as the time that they discovered being 'gay'. I guess what I am getting at is that they 'seem' quite sincere when they state never having been attracted to the opposite sex, and that their first sexual attractions where towards the same sex. Do you think they are all lying? Is it in their heads? Are they being possessed by demons? Is it just a choice they made? Are they mentally sick? Can it be cured? Are there some that can't help it, it is just who they are? What about hermaphrodites?
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 01:47 AM
Assalamu aleykum Wa rhametulah



Are some gay Muslims not your brothers or sisters?

format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
What do you think of the people that say they were always attracted to the same sex since a child?
I will say one thing, there are some people who always fantasised about killing, or raping, people that were always attracted to things as such, which some religions describe as Sin. You maybe thinking, well killing and homosexuality is different, but that is according to who? people, but rather according to G-d, in the Bible and Qu'ran homosexuality is still a sin, thus, whether it be a young teen fanatical about killing or a young teen fanatical about members of their on gender in a sexual way, they are both wrong. Why would people have such tendencies? Same as every other time why, who is the one who tries to keep the children of Adam away from the straight path? Satan, thus it is possible that it a wishper from satan, and whereas some people maybe say 'Authobillah' I see refuge in Allah, others may say, 'I'm gay omg and its genetical I cant do nothing about it'

format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
With due respect, but "disgusting"? Within 4 minutes of my posting the thread, you had already removed the link. Hardly enough time to find anything "disgusting". In fact, hardly enough time to find anything.

The site is just a collection of links to some biographys of a few individuals, and essays and articles explaining the positions of the site operators.

I find it difficult to find anything disgusting, merely discussion on their opinions, and their difficulty accepting themselves as muslim and gay. They do not linger extensively on the 'gay' topic, but merely discuss their struggle for self-acceptance and acceptance in the community.

Perhaps you could point out the disgusting links, I admit that I did not visit them all, and perhaps you found one that I did not visit.
Thanks.
I have not read the link, maybe what Brother Ahmed found was a distored meaning to some of the Islamic teachings, "was a twisted, deranged form of Islam."

:) Eesa
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-06-2006, 01:55 AM
Its true, people may get tendencies of feeling well "different." The best thing to do is not act upon and control ur nafs(one self). If one truly fears Allah(swt), they will try and not act on such a thing. Surely Allah knows your struggles and intention counts cuz ur doing it for His sake. But if u openly profess it and act on it, its not acceptable. Yet after that if u repent, Allah will accept u and forgive u. What if you repent and u had already professed it? Allah covers ur sin after u have repented. He is always willing to forgive. But in Islam, homosexuality is a grave sin.
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thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 01:59 AM
well first off, this topic should NOT be taboo. there are millions, literally millions of gay muslims out there, and you should never forget that these peole are qu'ran followers.. it might not be word for word, but we all sin and make mistakes.

i happen to be a homosexual but i'm a christian. however, we don't deserve death for being gay. i promise you it is not a choice. but you can believe what you wish to, as long as it doesn't hurt me.

most muslims [including converts] are very anti gay. i've noticed this the hard way. it's very sad, but just as judaism reforemed, one day islam will too.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-06-2006, 02:00 AM
Islam does not need reform, that only means there will be changes.

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
there are millions, literally millions of gay muslims out there, and you should never forget that these peole are qu'ran followers.. it might not be word for word, but we all sin and make mistakes.
Of course we make mistakes and God(swt) knows that. Thats why He is always willing to forgive someone when they seek forgiveness. As for those who follow Islam and are gay, well thats just between them and Allah(swt).
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 02:11 AM
Hi, :)

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
well first off, this topic should NOT be taboo. there are millions, literally millions of gay muslims out there,
Just wondering, which source states that it's millions?


format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
and you should never forget that these peole are qu'ran followers.. it might not be word for word, but we all sin and make mistakes.
I think, alot of people don't have a big issues with the ones that follow the Qu'ran as such, but rather its the ones who, twist the Qu'ran and Sunnah to allow homosexuality, and say Islam totally allows it.

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
i happen to be a homosexual but i'm a christian. however, we don't deserve death for being gay. i promise you it is not a choice. but you can believe what you wish to, as long as it doesn't hurt me.
If you lived at the time of Moses, you would have deserved death? I don't get how one can say its not a choice yet G-d used to punish people for it, it's like saying G-d punishes brown people for being brown, it would be unfair, it would totally be unfair for G-d to put a punishment for something that you don't have a choice in.

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
most muslims [including converts] are very anti gay. i've noticed this the hard way. it's very sad, but just as judaism reforemed, one day islam will too.
I think you'lll find most muslims, trying to be anti-sin, and homosexuality is a sin that is highly disliked, just as murder, or rape are. Of course a muslim wont have the same reaction to someone commiting a gay act in a mosque to someone wearing clothes a little to tight. Because they are seen to be a different level of sin.

:) Eesa.
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syilla
11-06-2006, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
It was non-offensive and they were only explaining their position.
yeah...some of them said it comes in genetics...

well in islam...whatever reasons they give are not accepted ...they have to be strong...and they should try their best to strengthen their imaan...
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GARY
11-06-2006, 02:55 AM
How would you feel/react if your brother or sister told you that they were gay?
(a general question for any that feel like answering)
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 03:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
How would you feel/react if your brother or sister told you that they were gay?
good question, I think, I dont know how I'd feel, very upset, but he aint muslim so I'd focous on Islam first. I dont know if it was a general q
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thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 03:15 AM
let me add my two cents worth.

i believe that the god muslims worship, or christians and jews for that matter does not like gay sex.. why? because he made us to create. HOWEVER, i do think he made people gay. why? who knows.

and Gary asked a great question.. what if your brother or sister, or mother or father told you that they were gay? would you kill them for being gay? what would you do?

notice that when the qu'ran talks about homosexuality, he talks about the lust, and not about two consenting males or femals loving each other.

if islam is a truly tolerant and loving religion, why kill gays? why??

leave it up to God to decide on the day of judgment.. but please don't try and promote killing gays.
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 03:22 AM
Hi, there.

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
let me add my two cents worth.

i believe that the god muslims worship, or christians and jews for that matter does not like gay sex.. why? because he made us to create. HOWEVER, i do think he made people gay. why? who knows.
Fair play, you don't know why. No point in debating it further I guess.

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
and Gary asked a great question.. what if your brother or sister, or mother or father told you that they were gay? would you kill them for being gay? what would you do?
Maybe not me personally kill them, but if they done wrong. Abraham is beloved by G-d because of his intention of carrying out the sacrafise of his son which G-d asked for, similarly, in the old testament people were to be stoned, a similar command to that give for the sacrafise of Abraham, then why would we turn away from obeying G-d? If Abraham was praised because of his Faith, the surely us turning away would show our lack of faith.

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
notice that when the qu'ran talks about homosexuality, he talks about the lust, and not about two consenting males or femals loving each other.
Do you think the people in Lot's place forced each other to have sex and so forth? They didnt rape each other. Plus, in Islam the one going into the other and the one recieving it are to be killed, thus, even 'loving, consentual sex' seems not allowed.

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
if islam is a truly tolerant and loving religion, why kill gays? why??
If G-d is a tolerant and peaceful G-d then why would he have hell for people? Come on.
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maryamjp
11-06-2006, 03:25 AM
:sl:
Here difficult one. I believe whosoever has tendency of doing negative acts, he/she is far away from the right path. I think this is because they don't practice any religion. If the more you have the fear of God, the less tendency of doing negative things you have accodingly. If you fear God greatly you won't do anything wrong. If you think you are religious but still have tendency of doing immoral act, then you still have to get close to Allah by doing ibadaht(religious struggle like reading Quran, extra prayer,meditation so on) as much as possible until those evil thinking goes away. Have you tried? Only Allah can help you if you have such a dilemma. Don't try to make your act justify becuase Allah clearly prohibited homosexuality. Still if you have this problem you can consult medical doctor. Maybe some defect will be found on you. I have heard that some has man's figure but doesn't have symbols. Or some has symbols but organically he/ she doesn't have their figure. Don't make your feeling justify if you believe God. You never know Allah might have given you this dilemma so as to get more closer to Allah.
Believe in God, inshalla it help you. Don't cheat yourself by justfing your feeling and spreading immoral impression as if islam allows it.
I hope you can find rightous way of life as soon as possible.
Good luck.[/COLOR
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GARY
11-06-2006, 03:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
if islam is a truly tolerant and loving religion, why kill gays? why??

leave it up to God to decide on the day of judgment.. but please don't try and promote killing gays.
Ah.... and there we have it. The question that must eventually be asked. It is stated over and over again by many muslims that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. We have those that say "gays should be punished with death", and those that say that people describing their own battles with self-acceptance and islam as a gay are promoting a disgusting, twisted, deranged form of islam. But isn't this intolerance? I can only assume one of two things. Either they are wrong and are misrepresenting islam, or islam is in fact intolerant.
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thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 03:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Hi, there.

Maybe not me personally kill them, but if they done wrong. Abraham is beloved by G-d because of his intention of carrying out the sacrafise of his son which G-d asked for, similarly, in the old testament people were to be stoned, a similar command to that give for the sacrafise of Abraham, then why would we turn away from obeying G-d? If Abraham was praised because of his Faith, the surely us turning away would show our lack of faith.
so let's say your mom was a lesbian.. you would call the religious police and tell on her, and have her killed? that's just terrible.

you guys really don't know how hard it is to be gay. i loose sleep over this daily. being gay and knowing that it could be against Gos will. however, i don't condemn me, because i know i can't change myself. which is why i don't condemn other gays.

life is so hard. and i'm tired of trying to hide my true feelings. it's too hard. and i did consult my doctor about this.. he said it's normal, and that 10% of guys were gay, and that there is nothing that can be done. i went to a therapist.. she said the same thing.

no one deserves to die just for being gay. please realize this brothers and sisters. let god decide this on the day of judgment, but don't make gays be killed for simply loving others.
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 03:43 AM
Hi, thirdwatch,

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
so let's say your mom was a lesbian.. you would call the religious police and tell on her, and have her killed? that's just terrible.
As I said before, do you not believe that Abraham was Righteous because of his willingness to sacrafise his son when G-d commanded?

format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
you guys really don't know how hard it is to be gay. i loose sleep over this daily. being gay and knowing that it could be against Gos will. however, i don't condemn me, because i know i can't change myself. which is why i don't condemn other gays.

life is so hard. and i'm tired of trying to hide my true feelings. it's too hard. and i did consult my doctor about this.. he said it's normal, and that 10% of guys were gay, and that there is nothing that can be done. i went to a therapist.. she said the same thing.

no one deserves to die just for being gay. please realize this brothers and sisters. let god decide this on the day of judgment, but don't make gays be killed for simply loving others.
Look, I'm not here to condem and debate with you whether you should be gay or not or whether it is natural, all I will say is, G-d is just, he would not craete someone with a tendency that is irrevesible and then ask the person to be punished for that. We can either believe what some doctors and therapist say, with the happy go lucky approach that 'its ok to be gay' or we can try and subdue or desires, I do not know what causes you your pain and what has given you those tendecies, neither do I hate you because of those tendencies, I feel bad and upset in a way. But I can't change things, its a private fight, and I hope you sucseed.

:) Eesa.
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
Ah.... and there we have it. The question that must eventually be asked. It is stated over and over again by many muslims that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. We have those that say "gays should be punished with death", and those that say that people describing their own battles with self-acceptance and islam as a gay are promoting a disgusting, twisted, deranged form of islam. But isn't this intolerance? I can only assume one of two things. Either they are wrong and are misrepresenting islam, or islam is in fact intolerant.
Let me ask ya, is G-d tolerant?
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syilla
11-06-2006, 03:56 AM
why should islam be tolerant to something that is not right?
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DigitalStorm82
11-06-2006, 04:00 AM
There is a cure for everything... science just hasn't discovered it yet.

...and I really believe being gay is a choice... its not something you're born with. You develop the feelings of lust or love with experience... and its the experience of your childhood which makes you gay or straight.

God allowed us to have a relationship with the opposite sex so we can reproduce... that is the MAIN purpose in relationship... and of course there is pleasure in it as well. But, with gays there is no reproducing...

Even if they could reproduce... like the lee experiment they are testing... which is rediculous! God has forbidden the back passages in sexual acts... so what is the point in being gay?

There is no such thing as a muslim gay... if you go against the commands of Allah how can you call urself a muslim.. which means submitting to God... how can you submit or be a muslim while you openly disobey his commandments.
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 04:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DigitalStorm82
There is no such thing as a muslim gay... if you go against the commands of Allah how can you call urself a muslim.. which means submitting to God... how can you submit or be a muslim while you openly disobey his commandments.
Is there such a thing as a Muslim Killer? A Muslim Rapist? A Muslim Fornicator? A Muslim Adulteror? and so on, are there?

Homosexuality is a sin, but does it take someone out of the fold of Islam?
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GARY
11-06-2006, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Let me ask ya, is G-d tolerant?
I don't know, that's a good question. do you know?

format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
why should islam be tolerant to something that is not right?
LOL!! That's a hilarious question! Because that's what tolerance is. If we only tolerate the things that we like, then by definition, we are not tolerant. I am not saying islam should do anything, but if it is tolerant, that would mean falling under the definition of tolerance.
format_quote Originally Posted by DigitalStorm82
There is no such thing as a muslim gay... if you go against the commands of Allah how can you call urself a muslim.. which means submitting to God... how can you submit or be a muslim while you openly disobey his commandments.
It was stated before that there are many muslim gays that resist their urges, and do not have sexual contact. They have homosexual desires but do not act on them. So they are not disobeying, but are still gay. So would they not be a gay muslim?
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north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 04:11 AM
I think there are lots of gay muslims in Malaysia. I knew someone who is the gay in a university... but now he's married with three children.
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syilla
11-06-2006, 04:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
LOL!! That's a hilarious question! Because that's what tolerance is. If we only tolerate the things that we like, then by definition, we are not tolerant.

do you mean that...if someone kill a person we should be tolerance to that person....and shouldn't punish the criminal for its crime :?
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DigitalStorm82
11-06-2006, 04:14 AM
Good point...

But there are hadith which states crimes much less than mentioned above as being so bad that the prophet said that such a person is not from me.

Whether it takes you out of the fold of islam or not is something only sheikhs can answer... although would be interesting to look up.

Perhaps the issue of repentence plays a big role in answering this question... whether the person is willing to change their path to good or continue in evil ways...
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GARY
11-06-2006, 04:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
do you mean that...if someone kill a person we should be tolerance to that person....and shouldn't punish the criminal for its crime :?
Now you are just being silly.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 04:16 AM
Tolerance does not mean allowing people to be harmed or killed by someone.

(We are straying from the topic of homosexuality.)
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syilla
11-06-2006, 04:17 AM
^^^not being silly.... i'm serious....

tell me why you said that
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syilla
11-06-2006, 04:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
Tolerance does not mean allowing people to be harmed or killed by someone.

(We are straying from the topic of homosexuality.)

do you really know the islamic law...

do you know how hard it is in islamic law to tell that person is guilty in committing a crime


sorry...i'm not straying from the topic of homosexuality...
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DigitalStorm82
11-06-2006, 04:20 AM
Question:
Could you please tell me that why is a homosexuality a sin in islam? I know it’s a great sin but my question is why? I haven't able to find the real reason why? So، if you could can you also tell me that what Allah has says in Quran or in hadith about it. Please let me know as soon as possible.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

The Muslim should not doubt, even for an instant, that what Allaah has prescribed is wise. He should know that there is great wisdom in what Allaah has commanded and what He has forbidden; it is the straight path and is the only way in which man can be safe and at peace, protecting his honour, his mind and his health, in accordance with the natural disposition (fitrah) with which Allaah has created man.

Some heretics have tried to attack Islam and its rulings; they have denounced divorce and plural marriage and permitted alcohol. Those who look at the state of their societies will see the state of misery which those societies have reached.

When they rejected divorce, murder took its place. When they rejected plural marriage, men started to take mistresses instead. When they allowed alcohol, all kinds of shameful and immoral actions became widespread.

They (gays and lesbians) both go against the natural disposition (fitrah) which Allaah has created in mankind – and also in animals – whereby the male is inclined towards the female, and vice versa.
Whoever goes against that goes against the natural disposition of mankind, the fitrah.

The spread of homosexuality has caused man diseases which neither the east nor the west can deny exist because of them. Even if the only result of this perversion was AIDS – which attacks the immune system in humans – that would be enough.

It also causes the breakup of the family and leads people to give up their work and study because they are preoccupied with these perversions.

Since the prohibition has come from his Lord, the Muslim should not wait until medicine proves that harm befalls the one who does that which Allaah has forbidden. Rather he must believe firmly that Allaah only prescribes that which is good for people, and these modern discoveries should only increase his certainty and confidence in the greatness of Allaah’s wisdom.

Ibn al-Qayyim said:

Both of them – fornication and homosexuality – involve immorality that goes against the wisdom of Allaah’s creation and commandment. For homosexuality involves innumerable evil and harms, and the one to whom it is done would be better off being killed than having this done to him, because after that he will become so evil and so corrupt that there can be no hope of his being reformed, and all good is lost for him, and he will no longer feel any shame before Allaah or before His creation. The semen of the one who did that to him will act as a poison on his body and soul. The scholars differed as to whether the one to whom it is done will ever enter Paradise. There are two opinions which I heard Shaykh al-Islam (may Allaah have mercy on him) narrate.”

(al-Jawaab al-Kaafi, p. 115).

2. Lesbianism means one woman doing to another something like that which a man does to a woman. Homosexuality means having intercourse with males in the back passage. This was the action of the accursed people of the Prophet of Allaah Loot (peace be upon him). In sharee’ah terminology it refers to inserting the tip of the penis into the anus of a male.

What is mentioned concerning these actions in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

A – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)’”

[al-A’raaf 7:80-81]

B – “Verily, We sent against them a violent storm of stones (which destroyed them all), except the family of Loot (Lot), them We saved in the last hour of the night”

[al-Qamar 54:34 – interpretation of the meaning]

C – “And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?”

[al-A’raaf 7:80 – interpretation of the meaning]

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘You commit Al‑Faahishah (sodomy the worst sin) which none has preceded you in (committing) it in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)’”

[al-‘Ankaboot 29:28]

D – “And (remember) Loot (Lot), We gave him Hukm (right judgement of the affairs and Prophethood) and (religious) knowledge, and We saved him from the town (folk) who practised Al‑Khabaa’ith (evil, wicked and filthy deeds). Verily, they were a people given to evil, and were Faasiqoon (rebellious, disobedient to Allaah)”

[al-Anbiya’ 21:74 – interpretation of the meaning]

E – “And (remember) Loot (Lot)! When he said to his people, ‘Do you commit Al‑Faahishah (evil, great sin, every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse, sodomy) while you see (one another doing evil without any screen)

Do you practise your lusts on men instead of women? Nay, but you are a people who behave senselessly.’

There was no other answer given by his people except that they said: ‘Drive out the family of Loot (Lot) from your city. Verily, these are men who want to be clean and pure!’

So We saved him and his family, except his wife. We destined her to be of those who remained behind.

And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). So evil was the rain of those who were warned”

[al-Naml 27:54-58 – interpretation of the meaning]

These verses refer to the punishment that befell the people of Loot. With regard to the rulings on them:

F – Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning]:

“And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, hurt them both. And if they repent (promise Allaah that they will never repeat, i.e. commit illegal sexual intercourse and other similar sins) and do righteous good deeds, leave them alone. Surely, Allaah is Ever All-Forgiving (the One Who forgives and accepts repentance), (and He is) Most Merciful”

[al-Nisa’ 4:16]

Ibn Katheer said:

“The words of Allaah ‘And the two persons (man and woman) among you who commit illegal sexual intercourse, hurt them both’ mean, those who commit immoral actions, punish them both. Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him), Sa’eed ibn Jubayr and others said: By condemning them, shaming them and hitting them with shoes. This was the ruling until Allaah abrogated it and replaced it with whipping and stoning. ‘Ikrimah, ‘Ata, al-Hasan and ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Katheer said: This was revealed concerning a man and woman who commit fornication. Al-Saddi said, it was revealed concerning young people before they get married. Mujaahid said: it was revealed concerning two men if they admit it bluntly; a hint is not sufficient – as if he was referring to homosexuality. And Allaah knows best.”

(Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/463).

G – It was narrated that Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him): “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘There is nothing I fear for my ummah more than the deed of the people of Loot.’”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1457; Ibn Maajah, 2563. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 1552).

H – It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “… cursed is the one who has intercourse with an animal, cursed is the one who does the action of the people of Loot.”

(Narrated by Ahmad, 1878. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 5891).

I – It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever you find doing the deed of the people of Loot, kill the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1456; Abu Dawood, 4462; Ibn Maajah, 2561. This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by Shaykh al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, no. 6589).

And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
Reply

thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 04:24 AM
if its so hard to punish people by islamic law, why are so many gays being killed in iran and saudi?
Reply

syilla
11-06-2006, 04:27 AM
then maybe someone from iran and saudi can tell us how many person has been killed...on what proof and etc....
Reply

thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 04:29 AM
my friend mimi could.. she's from saudi arabia. she said that basically they have public hangings all the time. it's crazy.

she is such a nice person.. she gives me a different view of islam i see from other people. like a wahabbi from saudi arabia who SUPPORTS gay marriage!! lol
Reply

Umar001
11-06-2006, 04:44 AM
Hi,
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
if its so hard to punish people by islamic law, why are so many gays being killed in iran and saudi?
If saudi and Iran were ruling by the Islamic law maybe we'd have a khalifa.
Reply

north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 04:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
my friend mimi could.. she's from saudi arabia. she said that basically they have public hangings all the time. it's crazy.

she is such a nice person.. she gives me a different view of islam i see from other people. like a wahabbi from saudi arabia who SUPPORTS gay marriage!! lol
From what I've heard.... Saudi Arabia and Iran recognises transexual operation... is it true?
Reply

syilla
11-06-2006, 04:45 AM
There is no concept analogous to "homosexuality" in Islam -- not in the sense of an innate identity, not in the sense of a behaviour, nor in the sense of a common identity of both (all) parties in sex between members of the same sex or gender. Instead, same-sex sexual expression manifests in a number of separate forms, which are not treated alike, either socially or juridically.

Rather, Islam concerns itself with sexual behaviors, rather than desires. In particular Islam condemns anal intercourse—whether with males or females—as a major sin. [1] The concept of sexual orientation is neither recognized nor accepted in Muslim society or in Islamic doctrine.

The traditional tolerance, literary and religious, for (chaste) pederastic love affairs which according to Khaled El-Rouayheb had been prevalent since the 800's began to be eroded in the mid-1800's by the adoption of European Victorian attitudes by the new Westernized elite. (El-Rouayheb, 2005, p.156)



Homosexuality in the Sharia

Dancing Köçek, a common object of masculine affections in the Ottoman empire. Photograph, late 19th c. Private collection.While there is a consensus that same-sex intercourse is in violation of Islamic law, there are differences of opinion within Islamic scholarship about punishment, reformation, and what standards of proof are required before physical punishment becomes lawful.

In Sunni Islam there are eight madhhabs, or legal schools, of which only four still exist: Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hanbali, and Maliki. The main Shia school is called Ja'fari, but there are Zaidi and Ismai'ili also. More recently, some groups have rejected this tradition in favor of greater ijtihad, or individual interpretation. Of these schools, according to Michael Mumisa of the Birmingham-based Al Mahdi institute:

The Hanafi school does not consider same-sex intercourse to constitute adultery, and therefore leaves punishment up to the judge's discretion. Most early scholars of this school specifically ruled out the death penalty; others allow it for a second offence.
Imam Shafi'i considers same-sex intercourse as analogous to other zina. Thus, a married person found to have committed same-sex intercourse is punished as an adulterer (stoned to death), and an unmarried person is punished as a fornicator (flogged).
The Maliki school says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.
Within the Ja'fari schools, Sayyid al-Khoi says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.

[edit] Interpretations
It is important to note that the punishment for fornication, adultery and homosexual acts etc., requires a certain amount of witnesses. By analogy, all schools require four (or eight) witnesses to the act of sexual penetration for the punishment to be applied. Although, some Muslims believe that if objective proof can be provided (such as through DNA testing, photography, etc.), that a punishment can still be applied, even without four witnesses to the act. [2]

The former regulations also make other Muslims believe (whether or not they regard homosexual acts as sinful), that the prior process' goal was to eventually abolish the physical penalties relating to acts of homosexual relations, that were already present within some religious scriptures and/or societies around the world, when Islamic teachings first arose. For example, some have interpreted certain verses within the Vendidad and Old Testament, as to prescribing capital punishment for those who (allegedly) commit homosexual acts. [3] [4] According to the prior view, the Hadith requires: (1) bringing forward at least 4 witnesses of good character, who can testify to seeing the act of sexual penetration and/or (2) a guilty plea by the suspects themselves. [5] Thus, it can be argued that the scripture based principles are so rigorous in their search for evidence, that they create the near impossibility of being able to reach a verdict that goes against the suspect in any manner. [6]

According to the modern Islamic scholar Yusuf al-Qaradawi:

"The jurists of Islam have held different opinions concerning the punishment for this abominable practice. Should it be the same as the punishment for zina, or should both the active and passive participants be put to death? While such punishments may seem cruel, they have been suggested to maintain the purity of the Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted elements." ― The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam, p. 165 .

[edit] Homosexuality in modern Muslim countries' laws
Same-sex intercourse officially carries the death penalty in six Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, Somalia and Yemen.[7] It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban. The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is unclear. In many Muslim nations, such as Bahrain, Qatar, Algeria, Pakistan and the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time, fines, or corporal punishment. In some Muslim-majority nations, such as Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, or Mali, same-sex intercourse is not specifically forbidden by law. In Egypt openly gay men have been prosecuted under general public morality laws. (See Cairo 52.) On the other hand, Turkey has made tremendous efforts to legalize homosexuality and protect gays and lesbians from discrimination.

In Saudi Arabia, the maximum punishment for homosexuality is public execution, but the government will use other punishments -- e.g., fines, jail time, and whipping -- as alternatives, unless it feels that homosexuals are challenging state authority by engaging in LGBT social movements. [8] Iran is perhaps the nation to execute the largest number of its citizens for homosexuality. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, the Iranian government has executed more than 4000 people charged with homosexual acts. In Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban homosexuality went from a capital crime to one that it punished with fines and prison sentence.

Most international human rights organizations, such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, condemn laws that make homosexual relations between consenting adults a crime. Since 1994 the United Nations Human Rights Committee has also ruled that such laws violated the right to privacy guaranteed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. However, most Muslim nations (except for Turkey, which has been ruled by secular law since 1923 and recently has modernized its laws in order to meet the requirements of entry to the European Union) insist that such laws are necessary to preserve Islamic morality and virtue. Of the nations with a majority of Muslim inhabitants, only Lebanon has an internal effort to legalize homosexuality.[9]

Some Muslims have expressed criticism of the legal sanctions used against homosexuality. Reasons given by Muslims condemning the executions include the fact that some legal schools (e.g., Hanafi) regard it as unjustified, the argument that the death penalty is not specified for it in the Qur'an, the idea that the punishment is unduly harsh, and opposition to the idea that the state's laws should be based on religion. The introduction of the AIDS pandemic in the Muslim world has also promoted more discussion about the legal status of homosexuality, as the legal sanctions against homosexuality have made it difficult to initiate any educational programs directed at high risk groups.

While executions and other criminal sanctions curtail any public gay rights movement, it is impractical to give criminal sanctions to all homosexuals living in a Muslim country, and it is common knowledge (e.g. to visiting foreigners) that some young men will experiment with homosexual relations as an outlet to sexual desires born out of a natural love for the same sex. These discreet and casual homosexual relations allow men to engage in premarital sex with a low risk of facing the social or legal sanctions that would occur if they involved in adultery or fornication with a woman, where it is more likely to be found out about, as a result of a pregnancy or the woman hoping to force the man into marriage. Most of these men do not consider themselves to be gay or bisexual as these are sexual orientations. Muslim minds do not use these labels but rather the definitions mentioned previously.

A related problem to full enforcement of the laws against homosexuality is that because men are encouraged to developed close friendships with other men, and women are encouraged to develop close friendships with other women, homosexual love is encouraged, and while lust is not encouraged, both male to male and female to female sexual relationships have increased in recent years.

Since Islamic law requires a certain number of male witnesses to the homosexual act to testify in front of jurists, and Islam does place a strong value on the right to privacy in the home, thus homosexual relations that occur in private are theoretically outside the bounds of the law, unless it is brought out in the open as is the case if lewdness, theft, blackmail, murder, etc is also involved.

source
Reply

thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 04:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Hi,


If saudi and Iran were ruling by the Islamic law maybe we'd have a khalifa.
very true. in fact, iran is one of the most transgendered friendly nations in the world. and the number of transgenders in iran is SIX TIMES the amount of america's.

however, there is a major difference between gays and transgenders. gays are killed all the time. it's sad.
Reply

Umar001
11-06-2006, 04:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
very true. in fact, iran is one of the most transgendered friendly nations in the world. and the number of transgenders in iran is SIX TIMES the amount of america's.

however, there is a major difference between gays and transgenders. gays are killed all the time. it's sad.
I think maybe you wanted to quote the brother who spoke about Transexuals?

But in honesty it makes me abit ill to think of this whole thing, ill because SOME not ALL but some men get off by leting others think their women and so on, May Allah save us from that ever happening.
Reply

thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 04:58 AM
yeah and one wierd thing about iran is that guys who dress and act like girls are tolerated, but guys who act like guys, but who just love other guys are killed.

altho personally i think all gays and transgenders should be tolerated and accepted. :)
Reply

north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 05:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
There is no concept analogous to "homosexuality" in Islam -- not in the sense of an innate identity, not in the sense of a behaviour, nor in the sense of a common identity of both (all) parties in sex between members of the same sex or gender. Instead, same-sex sexual expression manifests in a number of separate forms, which are not treated alike, either socially or juridically.

Rather, Islam concerns itself with sexual behaviors, rather than desires. In particular Islam condemns anal intercourse—whether with males or females—as a major sin. [1] The concept of sexual orientation is neither recognized nor accepted in Muslim society or in Islamic doctrine.

The traditional tolerance, literary and religious, for (chaste) pederastic love affairs which according to Khaled El-Rouayheb had been prevalent since the 800's began to be eroded in the mid-1800's by the adoption of European Victorian attitudes by the new Westernized elite. (El-Rouayheb, 2005, p.156)



Homosexuality in the Sharia

Dancing Köçek, a common object of masculine affections in the Ottoman empire. Photograph, late 19th c. Private collection.While there is a consensus that same-sex intercourse is in violation of Islamic law, there are differences of opinion within Islamic scholarship about punishment, reformation, and what standards of proof are required before physical punishment becomes lawful.

In Sunni Islam there are eight madhhabs, or legal schools, of which only four still exist: Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hanbali, and Maliki. The main Shia school is called Ja'fari, but there are Zaidi and Ismai'ili also. More recently, some groups have rejected this tradition in favor of greater ijtihad, or individual interpretation. Of these schools, according to Michael Mumisa of the Birmingham-based Al Mahdi institute:

The Hanafi school does not consider same-sex intercourse to constitute adultery, and therefore leaves punishment up to the judge's discretion. Most early scholars of this school specifically ruled out the death penalty; others allow it for a second offence.
Imam Shafi'i considers same-sex intercourse as analogous to other zina. Thus, a married person found to have committed same-sex intercourse is punished as an adulterer (stoned to death), and an unmarried person is punished as a fornicator (flogged).
The Maliki school says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.
Within the Ja'fari schools, Sayyid al-Khoi says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.

[edit] Interpretations
It is important to note that the punishment for fornication, adultery and homosexual acts etc., requires a certain amount of witnesses. By analogy, all schools require four (or eight) witnesses to the act of sexual penetration for the punishment to be applied. Although, some Muslims believe that if objective proof can be provided (such as through DNA testing, photography, etc.), that a punishment can still be applied, even without four witnesses to the act. [2]

The former regulations also make other Muslims believe (whether or not they regard homosexual acts as sinful), that the prior process' goal was to eventually abolish the physical penalties relating to acts of homosexual relations, that were already present within some religious scriptures and/or societies around the world, when Islamic teachings first arose. For example, some have interpreted certain verses within the Vendidad and Old Testament, as to prescribing capital punishment for those who (allegedly) commit homosexual acts. [3] [4] According to the prior view, the Hadith requires: (1) bringing forward at least 4 witnesses of good character, who can testify to seeing the act of sexual penetration and/or (2) a guilty plea by the suspects themselves. [5] Thus, it can be argued that the scripture based principles are so rigorous in their search for evidence, that they create the near impossibility of being able to reach a verdict that goes against the suspect in any manner. [6]

According to the modern Islamic scholar Yusuf al-Qaradawi:

"The jurists of Islam have held different opinions concerning the punishment for this abominable practice. Should it be the same as the punishment for zina, or should both the active and passive participants be put to death? While such punishments may seem cruel, they have been suggested to maintain the purity of the Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted elements." ― The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam, p. 165 .

[edit] Homosexuality in modern Muslim countries' laws
Same-sex intercourse officially carries the death penalty in six Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, Somalia and Yemen.[7] It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban. The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is unclear. In many Muslim nations, such as Bahrain, Qatar, Algeria, Pakistan and the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time, fines, or corporal punishment. In some Muslim-majority nations, such as Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, or Mali, same-sex intercourse is not specifically forbidden by law. In Egypt openly gay men have been prosecuted under general public morality laws. (See Cairo 52.) On the other hand, Turkey has made tremendous efforts to legalize homosexuality and protect gays and lesbians from discrimination.

In Saudi Arabia, the maximum punishment for homosexuality is public execution, but the government will use other punishments -- e.g., fines, jail time, and whipping -- as alternatives, unless it feels that homosexuals are challenging state authority by engaging in LGBT social movements. [8] Iran is perhaps the nation to execute the largest number of its citizens for homosexuality. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, the Iranian government has executed more than 4000 people charged with homosexual acts. In Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban homosexuality went from a capital crime to one that it punished with fines and prison sentence.

Most international human rights organizations, such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, condemn laws that make homosexual relations between consenting adults a crime. Since 1994 the United Nations Human Rights Committee has also ruled that such laws violated the right to privacy guaranteed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. However, most Muslim nations (except for Turkey, which has been ruled by secular law since 1923 and recently has modernized its laws in order to meet the requirements of entry to the European Union) insist that such laws are necessary to preserve Islamic morality and virtue. Of the nations with a majority of Muslim inhabitants, only Lebanon has an internal effort to legalize homosexuality.[9]

Some Muslims have expressed criticism of the legal sanctions used against homosexuality. Reasons given by Muslims condemning the executions include the fact that some legal schools (e.g., Hanafi) regard it as unjustified, the argument that the death penalty is not specified for it in the Qur'an, the idea that the punishment is unduly harsh, and opposition to the idea that the state's laws should be based on religion. The introduction of the AIDS pandemic in the Muslim world has also promoted more discussion about the legal status of homosexuality, as the legal sanctions against homosexuality have made it difficult to initiate any educational programs directed at high risk groups.

While executions and other criminal sanctions curtail any public gay rights movement, it is impractical to give criminal sanctions to all homosexuals living in a Muslim country, and it is common knowledge (e.g. to visiting foreigners) that some young men will experiment with homosexual relations as an outlet to sexual desires born out of a natural love for the same sex. These discreet and casual homosexual relations allow men to engage in premarital sex with a low risk of facing the social or legal sanctions that would occur if they involved in adultery or fornication with a woman, where it is more likely to be found out about, as a result of a pregnancy or the woman hoping to force the man into marriage. Most of these men do not consider themselves to be gay or bisexual as these are sexual orientations. Muslim minds do not use these labels but rather the definitions mentioned previously.

A related problem to full enforcement of the laws against homosexuality is that because men are encouraged to developed close friendships with other men, and women are encouraged to develop close friendships with other women, homosexual love is encouraged, and while lust is not encouraged, both male to male and female to female sexual relationships have increased in recent years.

Since Islamic law requires a certain number of male witnesses to the homosexual act to testify in front of jurists, and Islam does place a strong value on the right to privacy in the home, thus homosexual relations that occur in private are theoretically outside the bounds of the law, unless it is brought out in the open as is the case if lewdness, theft, blackmail, murder, etc is also involved.

source

Good job, it's great to highlight that minority view (Hanafite) 'sodomy' is not adultery... but the majority view (Shafiite, Hanbalite, Malikite) it's the same situation as adultery... GOOD JOB...
Reply

north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 05:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
, but guys who act like guys, but who just love other guys are killed.
It's not guy loving another guy.... but 'sodomy'... but the punishment... I have to find the statute first to confirm...
Reply

Umar001
11-06-2006, 05:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
It's not guy loving another guy.... but 'sodomy'... but the punishment... I have to find the statute first to confirm...
So wait, so only when the male member enters the other male then they are to be punished? So if they jus walk around kissing each other then wat?
Reply

thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 05:11 AM
so like let's say i moved to iran with my partner.. we coudl hold hands, and make out and love each other, but couldn't have gay sex?
Reply

north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 05:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
So wait, so only when the male member enters the other male then they are to be punished? So if they jus walk around kissing each other then wat?
falls under ta'zir ... not hudood... So you cannot give 100 flogging to male that kiss another male in public...
Reply

thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 05:13 AM
please explain takzir for me.. sorry, i'm ignorant on the subject!
Reply

syilla
11-06-2006, 05:13 AM
no hudood law in malaysia...
Reply

north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 05:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
so like let's say i moved to iran with my partner.. we coudl hold hands, and make out and love each other, but couldn't have gay sex?
1) Holding hand - that's not a crime

2) Making out in public - it's a crime but not punishable with flogging or death..
Reply

Malaikah
11-06-2006, 05:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
if islam is a truly tolerant and loving religion, why kill gays? why??
There is no justification for being tolerant towards an act that is a major sin, is against the natural inclination of humans and a cause for corruption in society.
Reply

north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 05:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
please explain takzir for me.. sorry, i'm ignorant on the subject!
Whatsoever crimes did which doesnt fall in hudood or qisas category are called as ta'zir.

The punishment of ta'zir MUST not be at par or more severe than punishment in hudood...
Reply

north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 05:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
no hudood law in malaysia...
Yes.

But according to Malaysian secular law ... sodomy is a CRIME whether Muslims or not..
Reply

thirdwatch512
11-06-2006, 05:22 AM
malaysia is pretty secular if you ask me. :)

i was reading an ex muslims story about a malaysian who converted to christianity. she said the police went to her home, asked her, she gently showed them verse from the Bible and qu'ran, and they left.. she didn't get arrested or anything. hah, and now one of those officers who went to her house converted to christianity lol.

point being.. malaysia seems pretty secular. :)
Reply

north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 05:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
i was reading an ex muslims story about a malaysian who converted to christianity. she said the police went to her home, asked her, she gently showed them verse from the Bible and qu'ran, and they left.. she didn't get arrested or anything. hah, and now one of those officers who went to her house converted to christianity lol.
Is it....? Why I'm not surprised.... Do you know that for every Malay became apostate, 5 non Muslims converted to ISlam... No wonder Muslims in Malaysia jumped from 50% in 2000 to 60.4% now..
Reply

Umar001
11-06-2006, 05:51 AM
Man, it always gets me down to hear someone leave Islam :(

Anyhow, the takzir thing is that the thing that the judges and so on choose the punishment?
Reply

Umar001
11-06-2006, 05:53 AM
And Syllia, isn't that quote abit wierd, where you have hadeeths saying kill people who commit the crime of Lot then you have that quote saying the punishment is upto the judge?
Reply

syilla
11-06-2006, 05:58 AM
^^^ hmm...maybe

actually my english are not that good sorry...
Reply

syilla
11-06-2006, 06:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
And Syllia, isn't that quote abit wierd, where you have hadeeths saying kill people who commit the crime of Lot then you have that quote saying the punishment is upto the judge?
please tell me which quote...so that we can edit it in the wiki
Reply

Umar001
11-06-2006, 06:13 AM
Assalamu aleykum sister, :)

This is the quote, which I have read but maybe misunderstood, it seems that according to this there is a difference as to whether a person convicted of comitting a homosexual act should be killed.

format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
There is no concept analogous to "homosexuality" in Islam -- not in the sense of an innate identity, not in the sense of a behaviour, nor in the sense of a common identity of both (all) parties in sex between members of the same sex or gender. Instead, same-sex sexual expression manifests in a number of separate forms, which are not treated alike, either socially or juridically.

Rather, Islam concerns itself with sexual behaviors, rather than desires. In particular Islam condemns anal intercourse—whether with males or females—as a major sin. [1] The concept of sexual orientation is neither recognized nor accepted in Muslim society or in Islamic doctrine.

The traditional tolerance, literary and religious, for (chaste) pederastic love affairs which according to Khaled El-Rouayheb had been prevalent since the 800's began to be eroded in the mid-1800's by the adoption of European Victorian attitudes by the new Westernized elite. (El-Rouayheb, 2005, p.156)



Homosexuality in the Sharia

Dancing Köçek, a common object of masculine affections in the Ottoman empire. Photograph, late 19th c. Private collection.While there is a consensus that same-sex intercourse is in violation of Islamic law, there are differences of opinion within Islamic scholarship about punishment, reformation, and what standards of proof are required before physical punishment becomes lawful.

In Sunni Islam there are eight madhhabs, or legal schools, of which only four still exist: Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hanbali, and Maliki. The main Shia school is called Ja'fari, but there are Zaidi and Ismai'ili also. More recently, some groups have rejected this tradition in favor of greater ijtihad, or individual interpretation. Of these schools, according to Michael Mumisa of the Birmingham-based Al Mahdi institute:

The Hanafi school does not consider same-sex intercourse to constitute adultery, and therefore leaves punishment up to the judge's discretion. Most early scholars of this school specifically ruled out the death penalty; others allow it for a second offence.
Imam Shafi'i considers same-sex intercourse as analogous to other zina. Thus, a married person found to have committed same-sex intercourse is punished as an adulterer (stoned to death), and an unmarried person is punished as a fornicator (flogged).
The Maliki school says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.
Within the Ja'fari schools, Sayyid al-Khoi says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.

[edit] Interpretations
It is important to note that the punishment for fornication, adultery and homosexual acts etc., requires a certain amount of witnesses. By analogy, all schools require four (or eight) witnesses to the act of sexual penetration for the punishment to be applied. Although, some Muslims believe that if objective proof can be provided (such as through DNA testing, photography, etc.), that a punishment can still be applied, even without four witnesses to the act. [2]

The former regulations also make other Muslims believe (whether or not they regard homosexual acts as sinful), that the prior process' goal was to eventually abolish the physical penalties relating to acts of homosexual relations, that were already present within some religious scriptures and/or societies around the world, when Islamic teachings first arose. For example, some have interpreted certain verses within the Vendidad and Old Testament, as to prescribing capital punishment for those who (allegedly) commit homosexual acts. [3] [4] According to the prior view, the Hadith requires: (1) bringing forward at least 4 witnesses of good character, who can testify to seeing the act of sexual penetration and/or (2) a guilty plea by the suspects themselves. [5] Thus, it can be argued that the scripture based principles are so rigorous in their search for evidence, that they create the near impossibility of being able to reach a verdict that goes against the suspect in any manner. [6]

According to the modern Islamic scholar Yusuf al-Qaradawi:

"The jurists of Islam have held different opinions concerning the punishment for this abominable practice. Should it be the same as the punishment for zina, or should both the active and passive participants be put to death? While such punishments may seem cruel, they have been suggested to maintain the purity of the Islamic society and to keep it clean of perverted elements." ― The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam, p. 165 .

[edit] Homosexuality in modern Muslim countries' laws
Same-sex intercourse officially carries the death penalty in six Muslim nations: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, Sudan, Somalia and Yemen.[7] It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban. The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is unclear. In many Muslim nations, such as Bahrain, Qatar, Algeria, Pakistan and the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time, fines, or corporal punishment. In some Muslim-majority nations, such as Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, or Mali, same-sex intercourse is not specifically forbidden by law. In Egypt openly gay men have been prosecuted under general public morality laws. (See Cairo 52.) On the other hand, Turkey has made tremendous efforts to legalize homosexuality and protect gays and lesbians from discrimination.

In Saudi Arabia, the maximum punishment for homosexuality is public execution, but the government will use other punishments -- e.g., fines, jail time, and whipping -- as alternatives, unless it feels that homosexuals are challenging state authority by engaging in LGBT social movements. [8] Iran is perhaps the nation to execute the largest number of its citizens for homosexuality. Since the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran, the Iranian government has executed more than 4000 people charged with homosexual acts. In Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban homosexuality went from a capital crime to one that it punished with fines and prison sentence.

Most international human rights organizations, such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, condemn laws that make homosexual relations between consenting adults a crime. Since 1994 the United Nations Human Rights Committee has also ruled that such laws violated the right to privacy guaranteed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. However, most Muslim nations (except for Turkey, which has been ruled by secular law since 1923 and recently has modernized its laws in order to meet the requirements of entry to the European Union) insist that such laws are necessary to preserve Islamic morality and virtue. Of the nations with a majority of Muslim inhabitants, only Lebanon has an internal effort to legalize homosexuality.[9]

Some Muslims have expressed criticism of the legal sanctions used against homosexuality. Reasons given by Muslims condemning the executions include the fact that some legal schools (e.g., Hanafi) regard it as unjustified, the argument that the death penalty is not specified for it in the Qur'an, the idea that the punishment is unduly harsh, and opposition to the idea that the state's laws should be based on religion. The introduction of the AIDS pandemic in the Muslim world has also promoted more discussion about the legal status of homosexuality, as the legal sanctions against homosexuality have made it difficult to initiate any educational programs directed at high risk groups.

While executions and other criminal sanctions curtail any public gay rights movement, it is impractical to give criminal sanctions to all homosexuals living in a Muslim country, and it is common knowledge (e.g. to visiting foreigners) that some young men will experiment with homosexual relations as an outlet to sexual desires born out of a natural love for the same sex. These discreet and casual homosexual relations allow men to engage in premarital sex with a low risk of facing the social or legal sanctions that would occur if they involved in adultery or fornication with a woman, where it is more likely to be found out about, as a result of a pregnancy or the woman hoping to force the man into marriage. Most of these men do not consider themselves to be gay or bisexual as these are sexual orientations. Muslim minds do not use these labels but rather the definitions mentioned previously.

A related problem to full enforcement of the laws against homosexuality is that because men are encouraged to developed close friendships with other men, and women are encouraged to develop close friendships with other women, homosexual love is encouraged, and while lust is not encouraged, both male to male and female to female sexual relationships have increased in recent years.

Since Islamic law requires a certain number of male witnesses to the homosexual act to testify in front of jurists, and Islam does place a strong value on the right to privacy in the home, thus homosexual relations that occur in private are theoretically outside the bounds of the law, unless it is brought out in the open as is the case if lewdness, theft, blackmail, murder, etc is also involved.

source
Brother Digital also posted a clear answer, and I will post another,

al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.
So there is a clear hadeeth, but from what I understood of you quote was tha the matter is undecided. Maybe I read it wrong if I did, I apologise.

Source
Reply

Salmaan
11-06-2006, 07:07 AM
Islamic Ruling Concerning Homosexuality



Islam considers homosexuality as a sexual deviation leading to a perverted act which goes against the natural order Allah intended for mankind. It is a corruption of the man's sexuality and a crime against the opposite sex. Therefore, the Islamic shari'ah strictly prohibits the practice of this perverted act. This is mentioned in many places in the holy Qur'an.

The story of the people of the prophet Lut who were addicted to this practice, is the best example. Prophet Lut, alayhessalam said to his people: "Verily, you do sodomy with men, and rob the wayfarer! And practice all wickedness in your meetings," (Al-A-nkabut, 29:29). And he said to them: "Of all the creatures ofthe world, will you approach males, and leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are a trespassing people!" (Al-Shu'ara', 26:165-166) But their answer to Prophet Lut, alayhessalam, was: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if you are telling us the Truth." (Al-Ankabut, 29:29). And so Allah gave them the punishment they deserved: "And We rained on them a rain of torment. And how evil was the rain of those who had been warned," (Al-Shu'ara', 26:173).

Just as a person who has a sexual urge should not satsfy it by committing zina, a person who has this perverted thought should not act upon it. In order to maintain the purity of the Muslim society, most Muslim scholars have ruled that the punishment for this act should be the same as for zina (i.e. one hundred whiplashes for the man who has never married, and death by stoning for the married man). Some have even ruled that it should be death for both partners, because the Prophet, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam, said: "Kill the doer and the one to whom it was done." (Related by Al-Bayhaqi).
Reply

north_malaysian
11-06-2006, 07:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Man, it always gets me down to hear someone leave Islam :(

Anyhow, the takzir thing is that the thing that the judges and so on choose the punishment?
Yup... but it also can include legislations passed by the parliament too... as long as the punishment is not the same level or more severe than punishments in hudud.

But as I mentioned before, "Sodomy as ta'zir offence" is a minority view. Salmaan mentioned a good point of majority view...
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
11-06-2006, 08:05 AM
:sl:
The issue of homosexuality has already been discussed ad nauseum in the following thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...being-gay.html

Please see the following posts:

General comments
http://www.islamicboard.com/97335-post198.html (Being Gay)

Islamic Verdict
http://www.islamicboard.com/98510-post206.html (Being Gay)

From an empirical perspective:
http://www.islamicboard.com/98939-post213.html (Being Gay)
http://www.islamicboard.com/174648-post20.html (Prove that the Qur'an is NOT the word of God.)

How it relates to Islamic Penal Law
http://www.islamicboard.com/183927-post281.html (Being Gay)
http://www.islamicboard.com/184171-post284.html (Being Gay)

:w:
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