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GARY
11-06-2006, 08:25 AM
I was going to post this in the thread on homosexuality, but the thread has been closed, and it is just as well because it would have been off-topic anyway. It has more to do with tolerance/intolerance anyway. I'll just copy/paste it here;
When I started this thread, I wanted to examine two points about the muslim position on homosexuality. What muslims think 'makes' a person gay, and what the level of tolerance of gays is.
In regards to the point about tolerance in particular. I wanted to directly compare it to what I have observed muslims say about islam being a religion of peace and tolerance.

tolerance :1a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something
2 : disinclined to interfere with others' ways or opinions

Clearly, punishing someone for doing something that does not directly harm others, by the above definition is not tolerant. Don't get me wrong, I am not sticking up for the gay lifestyle. But I have no right to condemn it either. Who am I to judge? Am I to join forces with the others in my community and punish the minority that are different like this, thhe ones that I don't understand and fear "could potentially" corrupt others in the community? Should I join forces with those then that would seek out the other small minorities that are different, and they don't understand, and "could potentially" harm others in the community? Minorities like muslims? Should they be punished for being different than us? According to the majority religion where I live, not following Christ is a major sin. Should the minority muslims be punished for what the majority views as this sin? Should we be intolerant of these people that have such different beliefs and practices than the rest of us? Should we be intolerant of the gays that are so different than the rest of us in our community?

I say all this as a point. I have no problem with strong convictions. If muslims feel that these type of things are so sinful, that they cannot be tolerated, then so be it. But for muslims that hold these views, the claim of tolerance is unfounded. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you are tolerant, or you are not.
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 08:34 AM
Peace be upon those who follow guidance. Ameen.

I will just say this,

You said
Who am I to judge?
Muslims don't believe in humans judging what is best for themselves rather laws from G-d. So it is not upto a Muslim to say 'well this law seems rather crude, let's change it'.

Secondly, tolerance, even by the definition given is something Islamic law is, but as always, something that everyone, including law, is, but only upto a point. Who decides how tolerant Islam is, G-d.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Peace be upon those who follow guidance. Ameen.

I will just say this,

You said Muslims don't believe in humans judging what is best for themselves rather laws from G-d. So it is not upto a Muslim to say 'well this law seems rather crude, let's change it'.

Secondly, tolerance, even by the definition given is something Islamic law is, but as always, something that everyone, including law, is, but only upto a point. Who decides how tolerant Islam is, G-d.
I would say it is better to just drop the claim of tolerance, as clearly it is not true.
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 08:43 AM
Hi Gary,

Originally Posted by GARY
I would say it is better to just drop the claim of tolerance, as clearly it is not true.
Again, if you ask someone, "Sir, are you a tolerant person" and they reply "Indeed I jolly well am" and then you slap them and then in turn slap you back does this mean they are intolerant? With regards to that they are, the person does not tolerate being slapped, but with regards to maybe, putting up with someone having a bad habit, they may be very tolerant.

Being tolerant does not mean to tolerate in every matter, if this was the case noone would be tolerant.

Eesa. :)
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Malaikah
11-06-2006, 08:44 AM
Don't get me wrong, I am not sticking up for the gay lifestyle. But I have no right to condemn it either. Who am I to judge? Am I to join forces with the others in my community and punish the minority that are different like this, thhe ones that I don't understand and fear "could potentially" corrupt others in the community?
Right. YOU cant judge. But we can. Why? Because God already told us it is a sin. therefore from the Muslim perspective homosexuality is not allowed, not because Muslims felt like making it that way, but because God said so.

Minorities like muslims? Should they be punished for being different than us? According to the majority religion where I live, not following Christ is a major sin.
Are you not aware that christians would have the right to practise their religion in an Islamic state?

Should the minority muslims be punished for what the majority views as this sin?
The fact that they are Muslims means that they too have no choice but to believe that homosexuality is a sin! Being Muslim means they must follow Islamic law, and the law is that homosexuality is not allowed. Not only that but it is a duty upon all Muslims to enjoin what is good and to forbid what is evil, to the best of their ability.

It is not for the believer, man or women, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error.
[al-ahzab:36]

You cant just pick and choose the parts of Islam you want to follow and ignore others. It just doesnt work that way.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
Right. YOU cant judge. But we can. Why? Because God already told us it is a sin. therefore from the Muslim perspective homosexuality is not allowed, not because Muslims felt like making it that way, but because God said so.



Are you not aware that christians would have the right to practise their religion in an Islamic state?



The fact that they are Muslims means that they too have no choice but to believe that homosexuality is a sin! Being Muslim means they must follow Islamic law, and the law is that homosexuality is not allowed. Not only that but it is a duty upon all Muslims to enjoin what is good and to forbid what is evil, to the best of their ability.

It is not for the believer, man or women, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error.
[al-ahzab:36]

You cant just pick and choose the parts of Islam you want to follow and ignore others. It just doesnt work that way.
I have no problem with any of what you said, I don't disagree with any of it. but it simply does not address the discrepancy with the claim of tolerance and the actual practice.
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 08:56 AM
Hi,

Originally Posted by GARY
I have no problem with any of what you said, I don't disagree with any of it. but it simply does not address the discrepancy with the claim of tolerance and the actual practice.
Maybe next time you should ask the person, 'does Islam tolerate homosexuality' or 'does Islam tolerate rape' or 'does Islam tolerate murder' and so on.

:happy: :happy:
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Malaikah
11-06-2006, 09:00 AM
Originally Posted by GARY
I have no problem with any of what you said, I don't disagree with any of it. but it simply does not address the discrepancy with the claim of tolerance and the actual practice.
Yes is does! There can be no tolerance of sinning!

If the sin is done in public, then its big trouble for the person, because the authorities deal with it.

If it is in private, then the people who know about it gave to warn the person and do what they can help guide them to the right path.

There is no tolerance of sins in Islam! This would be hypocrisy as we would be allowing our fellow Muslims to sin and not doing anything about it, and therefore secure themselves a seat in the hell-fire, instead of helping them to be better Muslims and attain paradise!

Tolerance comes in when its isnt something that is already determined and fixed by Islamic law.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 09:11 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
Yes is does! There can be no tolerance of sinning!
Clearly you are missing the point. Muslims claim to be tolerant, but are not.
Tolerant of what? Other muslims? People that live and behave the way that you are comfortable with? That's not tolerance.
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Umar001
11-06-2006, 09:26 AM
Hi once again,

Originally Posted by GARY
Clearly you are missing the point. Muslims claim to be tolerant, but are not.
Tolerant of what? Other muslims? People that live and behave the way that you are comfortable with? That's not tolerance.
You seem like a smart man, so I am trying to understand how you would make such mistakes.

You see, just because someone or something is not tolerant in all matters, would it deem the person or the system totally intolerable?

You seem to hold the view that because Islam prescribes death to openly comited acts of homosexuality, that the religion is void of tolerance, rather, it is nature that some things are tolerated and somethings are not.

Islam tolerates with people who do not share the same believes, or even beliefs that are totally shunned by Muslims, such as Shirk.

To quote an article:

This tolerance manifests itself very clearly in the conduct of the Prophet, in his dealings with the people of the book, whether Christians or Jews. The Prophet used to visit them, treat them kindly and with respect, console their sick and deal with them in terms of "live and let live."

Ibn Ishaq in his Sirah (biography of the Prophet) stated: 'When the delegation of Najrani Christians came to the Prophet at Madinah, they entered his mosque in the afternoon to meet him. It was their prayer time, so they began to perform their prayer in the mosque. Some Muslims were about to prevent them from doing so, but the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "Let them pray.", So they faced eastward and performed their prayer.'

Based on the preceding incident, Ibn al-Qayyim, a mujtahid scholar, put up a sign in front of the mosque reading "Admission granted to people of the book that the people of the book could perform their prayers in the presence of Muslims was evidently clear to him.
Funny enough the Article is named, A Unique Tolerance and can be found here

Another article states:

The Qur'an says: "God forbids you not, with regards to those who fight you not for [your] faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them; for God loveth those who are just." (Qur'an, 60:8)

It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world.

History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance towards other faiths: when the caliph Omar entered Jerusalem in the year 634, Islam granted freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city.

Islamic law also permits non-Muslim minorities to set up their own courts, which implement family laws drawn up by the minorities themselves.

When the caliph Omar took Jerusalem from the Byzantines, he insisted on entering the city with only a small number of his companions. Proclaiming to the inhabitants that their lives and property were safe, and that their places of worship would never be taken from them, he asked the Christian patriarch Sophronius to accompany him on a visit to all the holy places.

The Patriarch invited him to pray in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, but he preferred to pray outside its gates, saying that if he accepted, later generations of Muslims might use his action as an excuse to turn it into a mosque.
And this article is again appropiatly named Does Islam Tolerate Other Beliefs

Furthermore, if you look at the direct teachings of the Prophet you'd see tolerance:

Tolerance
Once the Prophet was seated at some place in Madinah, along with his Companions. During this time a funeral procession passed by. On seeing this, the Prophet stood up. One of his companions remarked that the funeral was that of a Jew. The Prophet replied, “Was he not a human being?” (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim, Sunan An-Nasâ'î)

A disbelieving Bedouin urinated in the mosque, and the people rushed to beat him. Allah's Apostle ordered them to leave him alone, let him finish and pour water over the place where he has passed urine. The Prophet then explained to the Bedouin calmly, "This is a place of worship, in it is the worship of God and the reading of Qur'an." After the Bedouin had left, the Prophet then said to his companions, " You have been sent to make things easy (for the people) and you have not been sent to make things difficult for them." (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
This from an Article named The Profound Teachings of Prophet Muhammad found here

If you ask, does Islam tolerate every single thing and act under the sun, I doubt it does, and I challange anyone to find me a system or person which tolerates everything and anything. Many a people would described themselves as tolerant, but would they tolerate the killing of their children for no reason, I doubt it.
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aamirsaab
11-06-2006, 09:39 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by GARY
Muslims claim to be tolerant, but are not.
Oooo look mommy, a sweeping statement!

Tolerant of what? Other muslims? People that live and behave the way that you are comfortable with? That's not tolerance.
Actually, most muslims I know are tolerant of everything. Here's an example: I hate chavs, chavs hate me. We can live in harmony, with a great big fence, from my house, upto their door, that way we won't be harmed no more.

Ok, here's a better example: There are plenty of people and actions that I dislike (drunken chavs down my street, pimps, white people who act like they are from the ghetto with a name like Bob etc), but it doesn't mean I'm going to pack my bags and leave or start being anti-social. No, instead, I accept that people are different and I get on with my life. That is tolerance.

If you really want to talk about a lack of tolerance, look at the amount of intollerance to muslims (the veil stuff, the fact that muslim students are being spied on etc) and the intollerance of religion (banning of religious symbols etc).
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GARY
11-06-2006, 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
You see, just because someone or something is not tolerant in all matters, would it deem the person or the system totally intolerable?

You seem to hold the view that because Islam prescribes death to openly comited acts of homosexuality, that the religion is void of tolerance, rather, it is nature that some things are tolerated and somethings are not.

If you ask, does Islam tolerate every single thing and act under the sun, I doubt it does, and I challange anyone to find me a system or person which tolerates everything and anything. Many a people would described themselves as tolerant, but would they tolerate the killing of their children for no reason, I doubt it.
Excellent explanation, now we are getting somewhere.

So, we have established that from the muslim perspective, and to a lesser degree, from a practical standpoint, that islam teaches reasonable tolerance.

So, the next natural progression in this discussion is, why do you suppose that so many are so intolerant?
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GARY
11-06-2006, 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

Oooo look mommy, a sweeping statement!
LOL! No need to get emotional, we are just having a discussion here. IsaAbdullah and I seem to have the ability to have frank discussion without getting upset at each other. It is quite beneficial actually. I can see how it would be provocative to someone that just came upon the conversation.
I warn you, in order to provoke some serious thinking in discussion, I may say more things that may shock or upset you. Perhaps you should just ignore my posts.

Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

If you really want to talk about a lack of tolerance, look at the amount of intollerance to muslims (the veil stuff, the fact that muslim students are being spied on etc) and the intollerance of religion (banning of religious symbols etc).
You know, this little bit of thumb sucking is really getting old (sorry, some of that shocking stuff I mentioned). Really, the old victim routine has really run it's course, it's time for some new material. You know what, lot's of different people experience discrimination on a daily basis, get over it. It's the people that waste time sucking their thumbs about it that are truly harming themselves.
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Malaikah
11-06-2006, 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by GARY
So, the next natural progression in this discussion is, why do you suppose that so many are so intolerant?
Intolerant of what exactly? You might need to be a bit more specific.
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aamirsaab
11-06-2006, 10:24 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by GARY
I warn you, in order to provoke some serious thinking in discussion, I may say more things that may shock or upset you. Perhaps you should just ignore my posts
Believe you me, it takes more than a few snidey remarks to get me crying like a baby - try hitting me with a baseball-bat to the face...actually, on second thought, don't do that. Besides, I'm all for a discussion, provided it is actually a discussion and not a point-scoring game.

You know, this little bit of thumb sucking is really getting old (sorry, some of that shocking stuff I mentioned). Really, the old victim routine has really run it's course, it's time for some new material.
You're bored of current events that quickly? I'm beginning to doubt your attention span.

You know what, lot's of different people experience discrimination on a daily basis, get over it.
Yes but I did get over it. A long time ago. That doesn't mean, however, I don't get ticked off, just like when certain muslims are intollerant of you, you get ticked off.

It's the people that waste time sucking their thumbs about it that are truly harming themselves.
I'm no thumb sucker, I was making a point.

So, the next natural progression in this discussion is, why do you suppose that so many are so intolerant?
Because they're just angry. Angry at the fact that all this crap is happening (globally and locally) and angry at themselves for not being able to do anything about it.

Additionally, the main areas of intollerance seem to be prevalent in the older generations; those that see change or difference as a bad thing (this mindset is also prevalent in certain younger groups of society, both muslim and non-muslim).

Intollerance is a human attribute that has existed for some time, it just manifests itself in different ways. It's why racism still exists and will always exist.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 10:27 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
Intolerant of what exactly? You might need to be a bit more specific.
Well, of each other for one. Not only Sunni killing Shia and viceversa, but muslims killing muslims for many other differences in thinking or belief.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 10:34 AM
Excellent post aamirsaab.
I suppose the victim routine bores me because so many groups have latched onto it and milked it. Been there myself.
Thanks for the honest answers.
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aamirsaab
11-06-2006, 10:43 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by GARY
Excellent post aamirsaab.
Well, I do try.
I suppose the victim routine bores me because so many groups have latched onto it and milked it. Been there myself.
It's different when you're the victim (bleedin' secondary school, why'd you have to suck so much @$$!). But, I agree with you that victim groups have been milked, this however doesnt mean justification is given to be intollerant to another group (this is not an accusation, merely a point in general)
Thanks for the honest answers.
No problem.
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Muezzin
11-06-2006, 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by GARY
So, the next natural progression in this discussion is, why do you suppose that so many are so intolerant?
Vanity and corruption. We're all of us only human and so are all susceptible to prejudice and intolerance, be we Muslim, Christian or Jewish. Doesn't make it right of course, it's just bigots are something everyone has to deal with, whatever system of belief they claim to follow.
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GARY
11-06-2006, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Vanity and corruption. We're all of us only human and so are all susceptible to prejudice and intolerance, be we Muslim, Christian or Jewish. Doesn't make it right of course, it's just bigots are something everyone has to deal with, whatever system of belief they claim to follow.
True. Excellent reply.
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Woodrow
11-07-2006, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by GARY
Clearly you are missing the point. Muslims claim to be tolerant, but are not.
Tolerant of what? Other muslims? People that live and behave the way that you are comfortable with? That's not tolerance.
You have probably noticed that we are very intolerant of all people. Because we are so radicaly intolerant we allow people to come onto Muslim forums and tell us how intolerant we are.

We are so intolerant of other people that we have the audacity to allow other people to freely discuss their own beliefs and to openly question ours.

You probably have noticed that we immediatly ban any person who brings up any subject that is contradictorary to our beliefs.

I guess since we are so intolerant, it is a good thing we do not allow any tolerant members to post here.

Yes, we do have some very inflexible beliefs and we do defend them. But, we do keep our beliefs out in the open and we do not stop anybody from explaining their beliefs. We do condemn Homosexuality, but we do not condemn the person as long as they can keep their impulses under control. It is the act and the willingness to commit the act we condemn. all of us have impure desirs and if we act upon those desires it makes no difference if it is a homosexual act or rape.
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GARY
11-07-2006, 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
You have probably noticed that we are very intolerant of all people. Because we are so radicaly intolerant we allow people to come onto Muslim forums and tell us how intolerant we are.

We are so intolerant of other people that we have the audacity to allow other people to freely discuss their own beliefs and to openly question ours.

You probably have noticed that we immediatly ban any person who brings up any subject that is contradictorary to our beliefs.

I guess since we are so intolerant, it is a good thing we do not allow any tolerant members to post here.

Yes, we do have some very inflexible beliefs and we do defend them. But, we do keep our beliefs out in the open and we do not stop anybody from explaining their beliefs. We do condemn Homosexuality, but we do not condemn the person as long as they can keep their impulses under control. It is the act and the willingness to commit the act we condemn. all of us have impure desirs and if we act upon those desires it makes no difference if it is a homosexual act or rape.
The points about allowing people to come to this forum are good ones, I must admit. I should point out though that I 'occassionally' have had my posts deleted without explaination (only one in the thread a couple of times), which of course makes one wonder. I also have noticed that a few times when a mod has stepped in in the middle of a debate, made a grande statement as fact, and closed the thread. And with the thread goes any chance that the nonmuslim point of view will be made. It has happened to me at least twice. Call it censorship if you will. We will tolerate you coming here, but don't you dare make any good points in a debate.
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Woodrow
11-07-2006, 03:14 AM
True, but keep in mind us mods are human too. Sometimes we may see things in a light that the poster did not intend. We can make errors.

Yes, sometimes I do delete threads and close the thread. This is not done to quiet the poster, it is usually because too much has gone astray and the thread is falling apart into a fight instead of a debate.
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GARY
11-11-2006, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
True, but keep in mind us mods are human too. Sometimes we may see things in a light that the poster did not intend. We can make errors.

Yes, sometimes I do delete threads and close the thread. This is not done to quiet the poster, it is usually because too much has gone astray and the thread is falling apart into a fight instead of a debate.
More often than not, this true. But I have had this happen when I had just started a thread, also when no arguement has taken place, and also seemingly just because I made a point that the mod doesn't like.
I revisited this thread today because SirZubair just started a thread about a very similiar situation, and by 'coincidence' one of the mods I've noticed this happening with is named as doing this to him.

SirZubair's thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/comments...teousness.html
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Muezzin
11-11-2006, 10:29 PM
If members have a problem with a moderator's decision, the best thing to do is to send a private message to that moderator.

Shall we avoid derailling this thread?
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GARY
11-11-2006, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
If members have a problem with a moderator's decision, the best thing to do is to send a private message to that moderator.

Shall we avoid derailling this thread?
To avoid derailing the thread, I will say that my personal experience with this "occassional" problem with a minority of the mods has been what I believe to be intolerance on their part. Intolerance for the nonmuslim view and questions that I bring to the table. But if I am not tolerated to ask my questions, how can we have any real dialogue that any of us can learn from? I am only learning that many of you are inclined to tolerate my presence, not my opinions or questions.

As for the idea of private messaging the mod's in question, I have done this. It is usually not helpful when dealing with someone that has already decided to be unreasonable, and has closed their mind to what you have to say.
Don't get me wrong, I have found most mod's to be reasonable, but I can name a few that are not.
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thirdwatch512
11-12-2006, 12:28 AM
tolerance is something that honestly, all religions have a problem with. like let's take catholics.. they told israel to ban the gay pride parade in jeruselem.. now that is intolerant! and of course muslims kill gyas, non muslims aren't allowed to live in saudi arabia, jews can legally be killed in qatar, so there's your muslim part. and for jews.. well, they have their intolerant verses in the torah lol.

everyone should be tolerant. that doesn't mean you have to accept something, but you should at least tolerate it.

and with homosexuality, muslims are the most intolerant of them all. and i pray that one day muslims will be more tolerant. and woodrow, you said that you don't mind homoseuxals, you just don't like their acts.. that's good, but lots of muslims think that gays should be killed, one muslim told me that he hated gays.. so i asked him "what if your mom was a lesbian and told you" and he responded by saying "i would slay her myself." so yeah, that shows some intolerance right there.

i think islam could be a beutiful religion, but some bigots interperet it wrongly.. as in all religions.
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Woodrow
11-12-2006, 02:50 AM
Is it an act of intolerance to be against intolerant people?

There is no such thing as anyone being purely tolerant of all things. We all have things that we are intolerant about, often without realising it.

All we can do is to accept the fact that each of us is intolerant about something, and we need to do our best to keep our individual intolerance from infringing on the rights of others.

We all have much to learn from each other. When we understand why each of us is intolerant, we open the doors for tolerance.

Remember to be tolerant we do not have to agree.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-12-2006, 03:12 AM
To you, Gary, it seems we are intolerant because Islam does not allow Homosexuality, but if u think about you too are intolerant because you fail to just accept our beliefs. Ironic, don't u think? Like bro Woodrow said:

Is it an act of intolerance to be against intolerant people?

There is no such thing as anyone being purely tolerant of all things. We all have things that we are intolerant about, often without realising it.

All we can do is to accept the fact that each of us is intolerant about something, and we need to do our best to keep our individual intolerance from infringing on the rights of others.

We all have much to learn from each other. When we understand why each of us is intolerant, we open the doors for tolerance.

Remember to be tolerant we do not have to agree.
Peace
__________________
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thirdwatch512
11-12-2006, 03:20 AM
you can be tolerant and not accepting though. like lots of people tolerate gays.. don't kill them, and let them live their life. but that doesn't mean they have to accept it.

i for one am tolerant and accepting of lots, if not most things.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-12-2006, 03:23 AM
Same here....I don't like them, but I don't say anything. Once, one of em said to me, "If Islam allowed Homosexuality I would be Muslim"...:hiding:
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GARY
11-12-2006, 04:05 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
To you, Gary, it seems we are intolerant because Islam does not allow Homosexuality, but if u think about you too are intolerant because you fail to just accept our beliefs. Ironic, don't u think? Like bro Woodrow said:



Peace
__________________
Uh, no. That's not what I've said. The things I referred to included the act of punishing gays in various ways. For example, when a family learns that a member is gay, to disown him, or worse.
To be fair, I realize that many families with no religion at all also disown family members when they learn that they are gay.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-12-2006, 04:41 AM
I'm sure u've said all that, but wasnt the only thing...

If muslims feel that these type of things are so sinful, that they cannot be tolerated, then so be it. But for muslims that hold these views, the claim of tolerance is unfounded. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you are tolerant, or you are not
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GARY
11-12-2006, 09:33 AM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
I'm sure u've said all that, but wasnt the only thing...
You quoted me as saying;
If muslims feel that these type of things are so sinful, that they cannot be tolerated, then so be it. But for muslims that hold these views, the claim of tolerance is unfounded. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you are tolerant, or you are not
This is what the media seems to do often, and we call it "selective reporting". This partial statement is meant to make it seem as if I am saying that muslims are intolerant because islam does not allow homosexuality.

Now, let's look at my complete statement;
When I started this thread, I wanted to examine two points about the muslim position on homosexuality. What muslims think 'makes' a person gay, and what the level of tolerance of gays is. In regards to the point about tolerance in particular. I wanted to directly compare it to what I have observed muslims say about islam being a religion of peace and tolerance. tolerance :1a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b : the act of allowing something
2 : disinclined to interfere with others' ways or opinions

Clearly, punishing someone for doing something that does not directly harm others, by the above definition is not tolerant. Don't get me wrong, I am not sticking up for the gay lifestyle. But I have no right to condemn it either. Who am I to judge? Am I to join forces with the others in my community and punish the minority that are different like this, thhe ones that I don't understand and fear "could potentially" corrupt others in the community? Should I join forces with those then that would seek out the other small minorities that are different, and they don't understand, and "could potentially" harm others in the
community? Minorities like muslims? Should they be punished for being different than us? According to the majority religion where I live, not following Christ is a major sin. Should the minority muslims be punished for what the majority views as this sin? Should we be intolerant of these people that have
such different beliefs and practices than the rest of us? Should we be intolerant of the gays that are so different than the rest of us in our community?
I say all this as a point. I have no problem with strong convictions. If muslims feel that these type of things are so sinful, that they cannot be tolerated, then so be it. But for muslims that hold these views, the claim of tolerance is unfounded. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you
are tolerant, or you are not.
Now, the bit you quoted that seemed to make reference to sins that were bad enough to not be tolerated, in it's full context we can see clearly that what was really being referred to was the sinner not being tolerated, and in fact being punished by those that could not tolerate him/her.

That was some excellent selective editing on your part, ever consider a career in journalism? CNN could use a few more good people with those kind of skills.

You seem to be trying to make it seem as if I say muslims are intolerant for simply not approving of homosexuality, clearly I did not say this. I myself do not approve either. Clearly my reference was to homosexuals being punished by those that do not approve, that is where it becomes intolerant.

One mistake I did make though was in not clarifying that I do see that some muslims do this, while others do not. Another was in not clarifying that I do distinguish between "islam" and "muslims".
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DigitalStorm82
11-12-2006, 05:05 PM
Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)’”

[al-A’raaf 7:80-81]

B – “Verily, We sent against them a violent storm of stones (which destroyed them all), except the family of Loot (Lot), them We saved in the last hour of the night”

[al-Qamar 54:34 – interpretation of the meaning]


Islam and Muslims are tolerant with things that can be tolerated...

But something like homosexuality, which Allah forbade and has destroyed the past civilizations that were extravagant in such acts... it clearly shows that it is something to be condemned... If God destroyed the people before us than who are we to go against God almighty?

We love what Allah loves.. and we hate what Allah hates... and be sure that Allah loves all that is good and hates all that is evil.
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Latey
11-12-2006, 05:21 PM
I get a little spooked over discussions like this - I get to loose the point at some time during the progres.

Why is it so needfull to discuss the tolerance of muslim versus christians/other religions ?

I would think that the background for intollerance is mutch more interesting - not wich believe the intollerent have
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Ansar Al-'Adl
11-12-2006, 05:31 PM
Hi Gary,
Evidently you are unaware that in an Islamic state, one is not punished for being homosexual. One is punished for committing homosexual acts publicly such that four witnesses can testify to the open display of licentious behavior. Please see our discussion here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...tml#post556617

Regards
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GARY
11-12-2006, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Hi Gary,
Evidently you are unaware that in an Islamic state, one is not punished for being homosexual. One is punished for committing homosexual acts publicly such that four witnesses can testify to the open display of licentious behavior. Please see our discussion here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...tml#post556617

Regards
Hi Ansar, the punishment I mentioned does not always come from the authorities. More often it comes from the person's own family. As I said earlier though, this also happens with nonmuslims.
I don't often say this, but I think this thread has run it's course. We are now going over the same things again. Unless someone has something new to add, this thread may as well be closed.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-12-2006, 08:46 PM
I read ur entire post Gary and the meaning didnt change whether i cut it out or not.
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GARY
11-12-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
I read ur entire post Gary and the meaning didnt change whether i cut it out or not.
Then you clearly are misinterpreting what I have said. The problem could be either in your understanding, my explaining, or both.

At any rate, I meant what I meant. If you choose to insist that I meant something else, that is for you to deal with.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-12-2006, 08:56 PM
Nope Im not, because all your posts basically sound the same. Whether directly or indirectly.
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GARY
11-12-2006, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
Nope Im not, because all your posts basically sound the same. Whether directly or indirectly.
Well then, you are left to believe what you believe. It would be pointless for you to try to persuade me of what I have said and meant. And pointless for me to humor you in this attempt to persuade me.

Cheers.
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Muezzin
11-12-2006, 09:07 PM
And it would be pointless to escalate this little to-ing and fro-ing into an argument ;)

Let's stay on topic please everyone.
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thirdwatch512
11-13-2006, 12:51 AM
lots of muslims say that in islam, you can be gay and even have a boyfriend, but you just can't have gay sex. and maybe that's true.

but do islamic states follow that? not at all. in palestine, if someone comes out as being gay, they are killed by their own parents, and the police don't take any action. i even knew a muslim once who said all gays should be killed, and i asked him "what if your mom told you she was lesbian" and she said "i would slay her myself." Now that is the most intolerant thing i have ever heard.

and no where in the qu'ran does it say to kill gays. n fact, last time i checked, one of the first hadith verses say that you can only kill people for three reasons.. apostasy, theft, and adultery. now some say gay sex is adultery.. not from these definitions..

Adultery is generally defined as consensual sexual intercourse by a married person with someone other than their lawful spouse.

When one spouse has sexual intercourse with a third party. Grounds for divorce in some states and provinces.

does it say anywhere in there about homosexuals? nope.

not liking gays is not a surprise. most christians don't either, and most jews don't [at least not religious ones.] but do we kill gays? no. it is their life. who are we to judge them? you muslims can enforce shar'iah on yourselves if you want, but please don't force it on others.. especially non muslims and those who don't want to abide by it. God made people diverse not to fight, but to learn from each other. and that's somewhere in the qu'ran.

if no one is being hurt by it, why are we to judge? robbery's and murders obviously affect people. but do gays?

and one thing i seem to be noticing is how converts seem more intolerant then non converts. but then again, i hear a lot how new converts are putting a new, tolera face on islam.. so who knows.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-13-2006, 12:59 AM
Well as long as u do NOT act upon it and control ur nafs(oneself) and seek forgiveneness and Guidance from Allah(swt), no one can. Because its ur intention that counts. If your intentions are good and do it for the sake of Allah, u r rewarded even for that.

Btw u said the same thing in a different thread and i gave u an answer similar to this. Anways i wont go off topic..

Peace
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thirdwatch512
11-13-2006, 01:19 AM
act upon homosexual sex, or falling in love with the same sex?
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Woodrow
11-13-2006, 01:40 AM
It is the actions that are sinful.
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thirdwatch512
11-13-2006, 01:47 AM
yes, but what actions? the sex, or the love??
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
11-13-2006, 02:37 AM
Well someone can feel and think of things that are sinful as long as they keep it to themself and dont act on that. Try to control what is forbidden because Allah knows your intentions. Whatever involves you to "act" and is sinful is what u should try to avoid.
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Umar001
11-13-2006, 01:18 PM
I still don't get it, I refrained from posting in this thread after having kinda established that noone can be tolerant all the time.

Then this thread has moved from, why are Muslims not tolerant of each other, i.e. sunni killing shi'as and others.

To intolerance towards homosexuals, to 'lets forget the Islamic state and just talk about what individual Muslims do'

If people want to ask why does a Muslim in palestine kill his son for being gay, then as we have established this is not something Islaam teaches, it would make sense that it is an individual matter which the individual knows about, and unlikely that every other Jamil, Jaffar and Sadiq would know of.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
11-13-2006, 06:29 PM
:sl:

The Islamic ruling pertaining to homosexuality has already been elucidated in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ariah-law.html
Evidently, people are just repeating the same questions that have already been answered.

:threadclo
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