“They made cuts in my ****”

[Skillganon]

“They made cuts in my ****”
8/9/2005 11:00:00 PM GMT

These are extracts from the diary of Benyam Mohamed, a 27-year-old Ethiopian man whom the U.S. sent to several countries to be tortured.

Benyam’s attorney revealed that interrogators in jails through which his client passed before reaching Guantanamo Bay, Cuba abused him sexually and psychologically.

Clive Stafford Smith, a British human rights lawyer who represents 40 Guantanamo Bay prisoners said that Benyam was tortured in Pakistan, Morocco and Afghanistan and that he was flown between those countries by American operatives.

Benyam was arrested at Karachi airport on April 10 2002 by the United States.

In July 2001, Benyam left his home in London and went to Afghanistan, and later left to Pakistan. In his diary he describes how he was flown by a U.S. government plane to a prison in Morocco.

"They cut off my clothes with some kind of doctor's scalpel. I was naked.

"I tried to put on a brave face. But maybe I was going to be raped. Maybe they'd electrocute me. Maybe castrate me", he wrote.

"They took the scalpel to my right chest. It was only a small cut. Maybe an inch. At first I just screamed ... I was just shocked, I wasn't expecting ... Then they cut my left chest. This time I didn't want to scream because I knew it was coming".

"One of them took my penis in his hand and began to make cuts. He did it once, and they stood still for maybe a minute, watching my reaction. I was in agony. They must have done this 20 to 30 times, in maybe two hours. There was blood all over. "I told you I was going to teach you who's the man," [one] eventually said", Benyam continues.

"One of them said it would be better just to cut it off, as I would only breed "terrorists". I asked for a doctor".

Then two doctors came to see Benyam.

"Dr. No1 said "You're all right, aren't you? But I'm going to say a prayer for you."

"Doctor No 2 gave me an Alka-Seltzer for the pain. I told him about my penis. "I need to see it. How did this happen?" I told him. He looked like it was just another patient. "Put this cream on it two times a day."

"One time I asked a guard: "What's the point of this? I've got nothing I can say to them. I've told them everything I possibly could."

"As far as I know, it's just to degrade you. So when you leave here, you'll have these scars and you'll never forget. So you'll always fear doing anything but what the U.S. wants," one of the prison guards told Benyam.
"The following January, a U.S. airplane "picked me up", and a female MP took pictures", Benyam said. "She was one of the few Americans who ever showed me any sympathy."

"They treated me and took more photos when I was in Kabul. Someone told me this was "to show Washington it's healing".

"In Morocco, there were even worse things. About once a week or even once every two weeks I would be taken for interrogation, where they would tell me what to say. They said if you say this story as we read it, you will just go to court as a witness and all this torture will stop. I eventually repeated what was read out to me".

"When I got to Morocco they said some big people in Al Qaeda were talking about me. They talked about Jose Padilla and they said I was going to testify against him and big people. They named Khaled Sheikh Mohamed, Abu Zubaidah and Ibn Sheikh Al Libby [all senior Al Qaeda leaders who are now in U.S. custody]. What they wanted changed from Morocco to when later I was in the Dark Prison [a detention centre in Kabul with windowless cells and American staff], to Bagram and again in Guantanamo Bay".

"They told me that I must plead guilty. I'd have to say I was an Al Qaeda operations man, an ideas man. I kept insisting that I had only been in Afghanistan a short while. "We don't care," was all they'd say".

"On August 6, I thought I was going to be transferred out of there [the prison]. They came in and cuffed my hands behind my back".

"But then three men came in with black masks. It seemed to go on for hours. I was in so much pain I'd fall to my knees. They'd pull me back up and hit me again. They'd kick me in my thighs as I got up. I vomited within the first few punches".

"I didn't have the energy or will to say anything."

"During September-October 2002, I was taken in a car to another place."

"They cuffed me and put earphones on my head. They played hip-hop and rock music, very loud. I remember they played Meat Loaf and Aerosmith over and over. A couple of days later they did the same thing. "

Benyam said he spent 18 months in Morocco.

"For 18 months, there was not one night when I could sleep well. Sometimes I would go 48 hours without sleep. At night, they would bang the metal doors, bang the flap on the door, or just come right in".

"They weren't really interrogations, more like training me what to say." The interrogator told me what was going on. "We're going to change your brain," he said.

"In all the 18 months I was there, I never went outside. I never saw the sun, not even once."

Excerpts of Benyam’s diary were first published last Tuesday in London's Guardian newspaper.

Source: Guardian Unlimited


Ref: http://www.islamonline.com/cgi-bin/n...ervice_id=9400

[amirah_87]

As salaamu Alaykum,

:cry: Laa Ilaaha Ilallaah!!! :cry:

[chacha_jalebi]

:( theres nothin you can say to these type of posts, like you can say sabr and stuff, but its realy hard for them to have sabr, inshallah Allah (swt) will help them, and finish these people who have created so much problems for us muslims :(

[MTAFFI]

MOD - do not quote long articles

i am not saying that this article is made up, but if he was in captivity like that how did he know what months it was and times, also why would the US ever let this guy go knowing that he would tell this story to everyone, it just seems kinda silly

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[Woodrow]

Although this is an old story, it is pertinent to the time. Us Americans do need to be reminded of our share in contributing to the unrest. Only when we all learn that people can behave like savages, will we learn not to repeat acts such as this.

[Helena]

erm dunno wot to say......imsad imsad imsad .....

Ya Allah...jus have sabr inshalah....allah(swt) will guide us....and protect us from the evil of shaytaan......sabr is the key inshalah.....

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Audhubillah Audhubillah !!! Audhubillah !!

[Helena]

Audhubillah Audhubillah !!! Audhubillah !!

new word?...

dnt u mean na'udhubillah?

[Umar001]

i am not saying that this article is made up, but if he was in captivity like that how did he know what months it was and times, also why would the US ever let this guy go knowing that he would tell this story to everyone, it just seems kinda silly

He could know because he'd construct the time evenly, after his release or so maybe he sat down and wrote it all out, also he could have over heard stuff about the dates, plus, if he was ever in lesser captivity he could have had access to stuff, also the sympathetic officer could have had a conversation with him.

Furthermore, why would they let him go? erm, its not like everyone believes this story I bet alot of people don't for that same simple reason, and if the US is pressured to do something after a while they might have to do it. Maybe he was asked for by the British goverment or maybe other people campaigned on his behalf, for the US to say we are keeping him till he dies will only make them look even worse.

[Kittygyal]

new word?...

dnt u mean na'udhubillah?

Assalamualikum warhmathullahi warbarakathuhu
no! it's not a "new" word it's old, you know when you do something you say "Authubillahi- minashy twa nirajeem"
do me a favour remember me in your Du3'ah!
walikumassalam warhmathullahi warbarakathuhu

[Pk_#2]

:'(

May Allah (swt) help the ummah

AsalamuALaykum

[Skillganon]

The article is bit old, but it just that I never heard of it before.

[Pk_#2]

Nor me!

i got e-mails on similar detainees and that!

[Keltoi]

The story doesn't seem to make sense to me. To believe the entirety of the story you would have to believe these interrogators were slicing him up because they wanted to "degrade" him. While that is possible taking into account the Abu Ghraib prison debacle, I doubt these sorts of techniques would be used against someone thought to have valuable information. Waterboarding and more phsychological means of interrogation seem to be the method of choice for these guys. Khalid Sheik Muhammed broke down because they played Red Hot Chili Peppers in his room for days. The majority of professional interrogators see no point in pain inducing torture because the information is usually unreliable. So I would have to believe these people were cutting on a prisoner for fun, which is far beyond anything at Abu Ghraib. Unless more evidence is presented, I'm not convinced of the authenticity.

[Umar001]

Peace be upon those who follow guidance,

Hi Keltoi, :)

which is far beyond anything at Abu Ghraib.

And you know that how?

[Keltoi]

Peace be upon those who follow guidance,

Hi Keltoi, :)



And you know that how?

Far beyond anything disclosed about what went on at Abu Ghraib, and there was a large investigation by the media and congressional committees. Degrading photographs and barking dogs seems awful enough, but when you compare that to slicing up a man's genitalia, that is quite a difference.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

eugh, that story made me cringe. It's sickening that this kind of crap is still going on, though with my knowledge of certain psychological experimentations, it shouldn't come as anything new. Sad really. Oh dang, now I'm depressed.

i am not saying that this article is made up, but if he was in captivity like that how did he know what months it was and times,

You'd be surprised what the mind can remember under unlikely circumstances. I could get into the psychology of the dude, but I won't as it could lead to backbiting, and let's face it, the dude has suffered enough.

also why would the US ever let this guy go knowing that he would tell this story to everyone, it just seems kinda silly

It's not the first time a detainee has been let "free" and told their story to the world.

As for why he was let out, well, I'm more curious as to why he was put in.

p.s; the dude describes extreme forms of psychological torture:"...We're going to change your brain," he said. - brainwashing techniques. The very fact that he was being continually told to confess (falsely) is proof of not only false confessions but brainwashing.

"In all the 18 months I was there, I never went outside. I never saw the sun, not even once." - isolation can cause severe mental deficiency.

To summarise: gitmo is a torture camp, those with IQ's of above 63 would know that.

[MTAFFI]

:sl:

eugh, that story made me cringe. It's sickening that this kind of crap is still going on, though with my knowledge of certain psychological experimentations, it shouldn't come as anything new. Sad really. Oh dang, now I'm depressed.

You'd be surprised what the mind can remember under unlikely circumstances. I could get into the psychology of the dude, but I won't as it could lead to backbiting, and let's face it, the dude has suffered enough.


It's not the first time a detainee has been let "free" and told their story to the world.

As for why he was let out, well, I'm more curious as to why he was put in.

p.s; the dude describes extreme forms of psychological torture:"...We're going to change your brain," he said. - brainwashing techniques. The very fact that he was being continually told to confess (falsely) is proof of not only false confessions but brainwashing.

"In all the 18 months I was there, I never went outside. I never saw the sun, not even once." - isolation can cause severe mental deficiency.

To summarise: gitmo is a torture camp, those with IQ's of above 63 would know that.

I agree, it is just incredible to me that these kind of things actually go on in the world today. I like to think of humanity in general as fairly advanced and definitly above these sorts of barbaric, torturous, primitive things. I guess it really shows just how "advanced" the human race really is, since we still carry out these types of acts.

[MTAFFI]

i will also say though, it still seems a little extreme, personally i think (and hope) that some of this is fabricated or exaggerated.

[Umar001]

Hi, :)

Far beyond anything disclosed about what went on at Abu Ghraib, and there was a large investigation by the media and congressional committees. Degrading photographs and barking dogs seems awful enough, but when you compare that to slicing up a man's genitalia, that is quite a difference.

Oh, okey dokes.

[Umar001]

i will also say though, it still seems a little extreme, personally i think (and hope) that some of this is fabricated or exaggerated.

I hope some is, well I dont hope he is lying, but I do hope some isnt true, argh, yall know what I mean right

[AbdulHassanAmir]

Far beyond anything disclosed about what went on at Abu Ghraib, and there was a large investigation by the media and congressional committees. Degrading photographs and barking dogs seems awful enough, but when you compare that to slicing up a man's genitalia, that is quite a difference.

Worse then Abu Gharib???? This mans torture was horrible indeed, but atleast he didnt lose anything, body parts of course. People in Abu Gharib went through torture such as drowning in lakes, losing Arms to dogs, etc.

[Woodrow]

One of the hardest things to come to grip with, is no group of people is exempt from having members that are capable of such atrocities. It is as if once we step across the line of decency all types of cruelities become justified and even called for. No matter how much we want to deny it, many of us are capable of doing the same things once fear and hatred take control of our lives.

Right now you will see and hear people that would gladly do the same and more to Saddam. Not mean hearted people, just normal people that have become overwhelmed with fear and hate. It is easy to justify any action when we act out of fear, hate and overwhelming indignation.

We probably will never become truly civilized until we reach the day of understanding that all people are capable of feeling pain and that when we inflict pain upon one person we have inflicted it on all people including ourselves.

[Rou]

Weather he is lying or not we know things are happening...wether he was harmed or not we know many have been harmed...wether he was tortured or not many who have returned from guntanamo and other places who are british citzens have spoken of the same things...

look up the The Tipton Three and this will give you an insight of what happened to many afganis..

there are many accounts and indeed there will be many who say these are lies? but then again so was the rape and murder in vietnam and of the native americans and the jews in germany...innocents are harmed and you will always hear excuses...

when have you ever heard anyone admit it??

at least saddam will pay for what he has done what of those who sip champagne whileso many innocents suffer...

allah have mercy...

[united]

Sadly this mans story is a drop in the ocean of injustices in the world today.
The reason why this does not get to a court is because the US will say
"we didnt know that they would torture him"
"we didnt do it"
and of course we cant question Morocco, theyre our "friends", they do our dirty work for us.
the UN could follow this up but it is a powerless lil thing

[Keltoi]

Worse then Abu Gharib???? This mans torture was horrible indeed, but atleast he didnt lose anything, body parts of course. People in Abu Gharib went through torture such as drowning in lakes, losing Arms to dogs, etc.

How could people in Abu Ghraib drown in a lake? As for dogs ripping off people arms...I would ask for some kind of evidence of this.

[AbdulHassanAmir]

How could people in Abu Ghraib drown in a lake? As for dogs ripping off people arms...I would ask for some kind of evidence of this.

I mixed it up with Gutanmo bay. But Abu Ghairib is still 10x worse, google abu gharib, with safe search off.

[Isma'el]

May the wrath of Allah be upon the one's who abuse/torture & humiliate the belivers..

[Curaezipirid]

Waram

What they did to the man whom has reported about the torture he was subject to has been done to Aboriginal Australian men by neo-nazi shaytan and kafir.

Here they are trying to assert that because the full traditional men's intiation is some locations, (without which a man may not marry), incorporates a sub-incision of the penis, that they can also cut the male genitalia. Yet in a real initiation the penis is cut to a form which prevents unnecessary pleasure in sexual conduct, and prevents also sodomy. While in prisons and among the worst of organised crime, they have enacted cutting men's penises to cause the opposite, while supposing that they can force such to be regarded as the same thing. Men have been raped in their anuses before during and after such blood being drawn. It is not commonplace, but that it happens is within my own evidence in having seen the scars of. The worst scars are psychological. Every instance of such occurrances in Australia are being committed through corrupt policing. There is a level of corruption in which the Gog and Magog phenomenon in psychology is manifesting such as to cause these disturbing extremes. I believe that one of the things that nazism proved during world war two, is the damage that is done by any overt pleasure taking in cruelty, has no cure but that which death alone will cure.

Those men whom are victim to such cruelty and can speak up to prevent reoccurances of, are those who can hold their dignity because they retained the ablity to experience the situation with an extreme degree of pain. Men whom have endured such and retained full sensitivity are truly men of proven worth in mental stature.

waram

[ishkabab]

Astagfirullah!!!!!!
THOSE DOGS!!!!!!!!!!!there are no words that can explain what they did......but Allah Tala will take care of them

[Rou]

Astagfirullah!!!!!!
THOSE DOGS!!!!!!!!!!!there are no words that can explain what they did......but Allah Tala will take care of them

These wrongs are but the tip of the ice berg my sisters and children suffer far worse at the hands of these animals and where are there protectors? i call not for the ignorant who blow up other innocents to add to the pain of the world but to the lions who would protect such innocents...

our people will not be saved until we unite you may not be able to destroy those responsible for the suffering of innocents from where you are but you can hinder there plans...unite under islam forget sunni,shia,kurd..there is only one muslim he who follows allah and his quran....

Evil doers fear our unity more than anything...

Awaken muslimah awaken...

[Keltoi]

Actually, the "evil doers" would prefer for this Muslim unity to occur, maybe then Muslims would stop killing each other and help their "brothers" and "sisters" by supporting stability and peace in Iraq. I keep hearing how dangerous and indestructible Muslim unity is. What does that mean exactly? If the concept of Muslim "unity" is about creating peace, then most in the world would support this unity. Unity in Iraq could help to create a stable democracy at peace with its neighbors. I don't think you want unity, I think you want all Muslims to agree with you.

[Rou]

Actually, the "evil doers" would prefer for this Muslim unity to occur, maybe then Muslims would stop killing each other and help their "brothers" and "sisters" by supporting stability and peace in Iraq. I keep hearing how dangerous and indestructible Muslim unity is. What does that mean exactly? If the concept of Muslim "unity" is about creating peace, then most in the world would support this unity. Unity in Iraq could help to create a stable democracy at peace with its neighbors. I don't think you want unity, I think you want all Muslims to agree with you.

1. how do you know what evil-doers want?

2. i asked for unity i didnt ask them to agree with me on anything?


just one more thing why are you bothering to comment on muslim unity? as you said if muslims come together they will create peace or at least stop muslims killing eachother...so thats a good thing and could create peace with its neighbours..

so whats the prob whats your point?

every time a muslim posts anything to do with unity i always hear crys of "oh it will never happen , "even if you lot unite what would you do?"
"whos afraid of your unity?" or sarcastic stuff like "unite and that way at least you can stop killing eachother"

i mean these comments dont sound like they are there to rally support more to dishearten anyone who wishes for unity??

and also many stick themselves in the group of evil doers at there own acord? whatever your choice...

[Keltoi]

1. how do you know what evil-doers want?

2. i asked for unity i didnt ask them to agree with me on anything?


just one more thing why are you bothering to comment on muslim unity? as you said if muslims come together they will create peace or at least stop muslims killing eachother...so thats a good thing and could create peace with its neighbours..

so whats the prob whats your point?

every time a muslim posts anything to do with unity i always hear crys of "oh it will never happen , "even if you lot unite what would you do?"
"whos afraid of your unity?" or sarcastic stuff like "unite and that way at least you can stop killing eachother"

i mean these comments dont sound like they are there to rally support more to dishearten anyone who wishes for unity??

and also many stick themselves in the group of evil doers at there own acord? whatever your choice...

Nothing wrong with unity. Sounds like a great idea if it leads to a peaceful solution. The reason I am somewhat sarcastic in relation to "Muslim unity" is that this phrase is usually wrapped around some vague concept of one-mindedness. Where all the Muslims unite and confront the "evil doers". While I can relate to this concept in terms of religion, it seems to be more political in that context. Perhaps I'm just not looking at it in the right way, and anything that brings peace is a good thing.

[Curaezipirid]

These wrongs are but the tip of the ice berg my sisters and children suffer far worse at the hands of these animals and where are there protectors? i call not for the ignorant who blow up other innocents to add to the pain of the world but to the lions who would protect such innocents...

our people will not be saved until we unite you may not be able to destroy those responsible for the suffering of innocents from where you are but you can hinder there plans...unite under islam forget sunni,shia,kurd..there is only one muslim he who follows allah and his quran....

Evil doers fear our unity more than anything...

Awaken muslimah awaken...

There is another thread in which there is a link to a site which asks for single word self identifications and plenty of us in this site are getting named as Lions as the result.

I am like to a Lion in the ferocity with which I will hate those whom have so harmed the majority of the Australian Aboriginal adult male population. The scars which our men bear we will all accept in that dignity. The battle of gog and magog is in our minds already won. There is no doubt in me that I will take that passage through Jahannam so as to drag down there those whom have raped our men, that is the extremity of the hatred in me, that I know there is no future for any life within the memory that such atrocities of depraved existances were ever actualised. I want none of such in reality that I believe we must make by ending permanently the world in which such things have occurred.

My children deserve to exist in Jannah without fearing that such scars might need to be borne with in the passage through to Jannah. I make du'a daily that my children will be able to know our indigenous heritage without knowing that such things happened to our people.

So many Muslims are correctly afraid of the full reality of what the United Ummah is. But we true believers are all in the diaspora continuing even until today: how can we unite with one another without dragging the evil-doers into our circle, and so thereby learning that the circle must escort the evil-doers right into the fire. Instances such as that described at the start of this thread can only be met in reality by such consciousness. Any other mind towards such phenomena is a mind that is letting such matters exist in the world. I would that the whole Ummah will learn to know better than to fail to fear the memory of such occurances. I fear that such events be remembered as though possible to sustain life through, more than I fear entering the fire my self.

But such endurance is borne only through experience and need to protect those I am responsible for from any future in which such could occur. In Allah what are we to lead Humanity by as Muslims when we know that such facts exist? Pray for guidance in that question.

Reality will prevail and only then will any of us enter Jannah!

waram

[Curaezipirid]

Actually, the "evil doers" would prefer for this Muslim unity to occur, maybe then Muslims would stop killing each other and help their "brothers" and "sisters" by supporting stability and peace in Iraq. I keep hearing how dangerous and indestructible Muslim unity is. What does that mean exactly? If the concept of Muslim "unity" is about creating peace, then most in the world would support this unity. Unity in Iraq could help to create a stable democracy at peace with its neighbors. I don't think you want unity, I think you want all Muslims to agree with you.

The unity which most of us are seeking is that unity in which we will all need to face our worse fears so as to sustain.

It is truly that same unity which many of the evil doers really are wanting. But the evil doers imagine that it is a unity which will advantage them. Never will the unity exist if it is truly to their advantage. But we are guided by Prophesies which we can not repudiate, so are assisted to find this account of Unity in Allah.

The Surah The Elephants is critically of this form of Unity.

waram

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Omg...! May Allah(swt) help the innocent Muslims and the Muslim Ummah as a whole :( Ameen...

[Rou]

Nothing wrong with unity. Sounds like a great idea if it leads to a peaceful solution. The reason I am somewhat sarcastic in relation to "Muslim unity" is that this phrase is usually wrapped around some vague concept of one-mindedness. Where all the Muslims unite and confront the "evil doers". While I can relate to this concept in terms of religion, it seems to be more political in that context. Perhaps I'm just not looking at it in the right way, and anything that brings peace is a good thing.

Indeed unfortunatlyyou were looking at in your own way religous unity will unite muslims and second help root out evil doers among ourselves first then we can sop those who aim to harm innocents for there own gain...this is not about polotics this is about lives that are shattered beacuse the ummah has lost its way..i dont care what other races or religons follow that is there path but i care when innocents are harmed and no one stands up for them...

[Curaezipirid]

The story doesn't seem to make sense to me. To believe the entirety of the story you would have to believe these interrogators were slicing him up because they wanted to "degrade" him. While that is possible taking into account the Abu Ghraib prison debacle, I doubt these sorts of techniques would be used against someone thought to have valuable information. Waterboarding and more phsychological means of interrogation seem to be the method of choice for these guys. Khalid Sheik Muhammed broke down because they played Red Hot Chili Peppers in his room for days. The majority of professional interrogators see no point in pain inducing torture because the information is usually unreliable. So I would have to believe these people were cutting on a prisoner for fun, which is far beyond anything at Abu Ghraib. Unless more evidence is presented, I'm not convinced of the authenticity.

Waram Keltoi,

The sort of torture that was forced upon the man referred to in this thread is not actually comprehensible for some fellows with the same genitalia. That is a fact. Different males have different sensitivity and different psychological reponses to pain being inflicted upon the genitalia.

The fact is that for a very sensitive person any breaking of the skin of the genitalia is equivalent to extreme psycological torture. It is the most expedient method of acquiring information from him, in the exact same way as raping a female to the point of stretching her muscle strength is the fastest way to acquire information from her. Both tortures occur with alarming regularity among organised crime. Here in Australia criminals are often performing both tortures upon believers so as to prevent their certainty from being enacted, and so as that the criminals (shaytan and kafir) can try to prevent Prophesies. Even it is that they have a trade in women whom are first let to prove themselves as good mothers, and then, usually through their Husbands/or boyfriends/ being caused by criminals into such deseration as to enact domestic violence, the women have thier children removed and are then raped repeatedly and given cheap drugs and informed that they can help their children only through criminal means. It seems that organised crime has learned that a really good mother, if she is forced to become desperate enough to protect her children, makes the best sort of prostitute, because she will swallow any sin of any male so as to provide for her children's innocence. There is a child pornography ring here in southern Queensland which is entirely dependent upon that knowledge. The worst aligned with the torture inflicted upon these mothers by their pimps, many of whom at the top level are either openly nazi or linked to the Japanese maffia. They increase the size of their own genitals by surgically embedding pearls so as to hurt the mothers they are raping while also internally imagining that they themself are the children of the mothers. This is why the adult male population of indigenous Australia are being incarcerated as youth for minor criminal matters, and then being forcibly sodomised and enduring such torture as the ethiopian man has revealed. When both the women and the men have been tortured then the women are unable to help the men to find justice, and the men unable to believe the women. This is common place and establishes cyclical domestic violence. The whole pattern was initiated here in Australia by the removal of children. For many years every Aboriginal child was regarded as a ward of the state, and no Aborigines were regarded as citizens, or even Human in the Australian constitution.

Because I know what has happened here in my own country I can readily believe in what this Ethiopian man has reported.

The people whom have endured such torture are usually too terrified to report it, when it has been done by criminals whom they can not thereafter avoid. Many are heroin addicted. Many have been forced into an identification of insanity if they detoxify from the drugs they are using.

The only reason I am able to report upon any of these matters in any immediate physical safety is because I chose the shelter of a psychiatric hospital ward bed, knowing that I am sane, but knowing that I needed to first of all protect my physical wellbeing so as to be able to work to protect my children. I have only experienced the tip of the iceburg of what the criminals are doing; and the only reason that I have learned any of what is happening is because when I began to identify as an Aborigine, the black community automatically provide a place for white folk who want to return into culture, at the bottom of the social structure, and so as an Aborigine I am placed in that very worst category just by nature of being white. So I had no need of being a drug user to learn about things that usually only those already entrapped by the world of drug crimes find out about. However, even without being a drug user, or any other form of criminal, I could not prevent a set up in which my own children were removed, and my own credibilty trashed, just because I found out and would not play along with.

The fools who enact such forms of torture pay in the end because of the desperation they force upon the whole community which their victims belong in. An Australian male was on the train one day talking to another bloke about Hezbollah. I was sitting close and entered the conversation out of curiosity as to why the whole topic came up. The first man was clearly showing the signs of being a heroin user. Many Australian heroin users know heaps and heaps about what is happening in the middle east. Not all of them have been tortured and tricked into being drug addicted. The Prayer to help our Aboriginal work has not been being received by whom needs it, but rather by the criminal associates of, many of whom are pimps and drug users/sellers. The criminals are habituated into extracting large quantities of esoteric knowledge from our people and through the fact that our race is long already Muslim, and that that has not been widely recognised. Our validation is that of the bark petition which Yolngu sent to Parliament. It is a petition to a legal process of Shari'ah. It is on display in the National Museum of Australia. But Aborigines are not just Museum pieces. The heroin user on the train was being surprisingly open for a heroin user which is why I questioned him. He turns out to have become addicted to opiates as an Australian soldier in the Middle East, now on methadone, and with a new wife and baby. She showed all the signs of having been tortured as I describe. The man told me about himself having also been tortured, but did not detail. He was tortured by the military for putting down his gun and refusing to fight after receiving an order that if he saw a man holding a baby that he was to shoot through the child to kill the father.

These sort of event are why this world will end. In reality sustaining existance can not afford such things. The torturers most probably were coldly clinical about what they did. Don't assume that the bad guys are always receiving pleasure from being bad: they also work in an unpleasant life towards attaining pleasant experiences, but they only totally fail to realise that when their pleasure was found at the expense of an unwilling person then they will by nature alone hurt the more in their own death. Death of the physical body has this cause, of equating the balance between the good guys and the bad guys. No matter how often the bad guys try to pretend they can escape retribution, there is no way out of having been so calculated as to cause that a man's penis is cut to torture him. Most often those whom enforce such tortures are actually trying to prove to the person they torture, that their way is correct by trying to prove that the person will find crime pleasant after they have been so violated.

These are the truths by which we will all learn not to love this world and rather to destroy the forces which caused the phenomenon that is torture. The world will become torture for Humanity only so as that each Human person learns to end it well. That is the way to find Jannah. Who could righteously enter Jannah knowing that such things exist and they did not work so as to prevent.

waram

[Keltoi]

In response to Curaezipirid, torture never has and never will be a "the most expedient" method to get information. If someone is being tortured they will tell you anything you want to hear, and the vast majority of that information is useless.
As for the rest of the post, I would hope that we all agree that torture is bad. I just don't find this man's story credible.

[Rou]

In response to Curaezipirid, torture never has and never will be a "the most expedient" method to get information. If someone is being tortured they will tell you anything you want to hear, and the vast majority of that information is useless.
As for the rest of the post, I would hope that we all agree that torture is bad. I just don't find this man's story credible.

? thats the point US needed results and there are many diffrent cases that are unrelated to eachother who have stated they were mentaly and physicaly abused to sign papers stating they were alqaeda..

they werent intrested in the truth its all about politcal results about how many terrorists had been captured...

and how many media flurries could be created...

im suprised many people ask such questions mainly as the documented cases are far spread watch the tipton three "road to guantanamo" and also search many who have returned from guntanamo as they were innocents and what they were put through..

there will always be excuses to why they were tortured or arrested but look at the wide array of cases and what they were put through and what they were asked to do.

A link to a trailer -

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?p=...o%26ei%3DUTF-8

[Keltoi]

? thats the point US needed results and there are many diffrent cases that are unrelated to eachother who have stated they were mentaly and physicaly abused to sign papers stating they were alqaeda..

they werent intrested in the truth its all about politcal results about how many terrorists had been captured...

and how many media flurries could be created...

im suprised many people ask such questions mainly as the documented cases are far spread watch the tipton three "road to guantanamo" and also search many who have returned from guntanamo as they were innocents and what they were put through..

there will always be excuses to why they were tortured or arrested but look at the wide array of cases and what they were put through and what they were asked to do.

A link to a trailer -

http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?p=...o%26ei%3DUTF-8

All about political results? I might agree with you if capturing these terrorists had turned out to be good politically for the Bush administration, and it hasn't been. The best result politically would have been to take no prisoners, but that would have been bad for PR. Professional military officers do not involve themselves in torture as a rule because it has direct impact on the conduct of other nations in a time of war. The U.S. military doesn't want their captured POW's being tortured, and to maintain that high ground torture is not condoned. Waterboarding and psychological methods are used quite frequently, but cutting and beating is not an American practice.

[Rou]

All about political results? I might agree with you if capturing these terrorists had turned out to be good politically for the Bush administration, and it hasn't been. The best result politically would have been to take no prisoners, but that would have been bad for PR. Professional military officers do not involve themselves in torture as a rule because it has direct impact on the conduct of other nations in a time of war. The U.S. military doesn't want their captured POW's being tortured, and to maintain that high ground torture is not condoned. Waterboarding and psychological methods are used quite frequently, but cutting and beating is not an American practice.

capturing a terrorist would be bad for bush?? hows that? if the person was a terrorist and has admitted to it then that would be good and would show result its when he captures people and they get off free that is bad for him..

cutting and beating is not american practice???? lol

you seriously need to do you research before stating such things...

americans do far worse....

and beatings for those trying to pray is even worse yet it happens this has been witnessed by many on diffrent accounts... i mean seriously how can anyone state that the american army does not beat its POWS?

look at vietnam history and guantanamo present plus abu ghraib...

if this were true then what is being stated is that the eletricuit people but dont beat them?? where is the logic??

let us not be naive...

[Keltoi]

capturing a terrorist would be bad for bush?? hows that? if the person was a terrorist and has admitted to it then that would be good and would show result its when he captures people and they get off free that is bad for him..

cutting and beating is not american practice???? lol

you seriously need to do you research before stating such things...

americans do far worse....

and beatings for those trying to pray is even worse yet it happens this has been witnessed by many on diffrent accounts... i mean seriously how can anyone state that the american army does not beat its POWS?

look at vietnam history and guantanamo present plus abu ghraib...

if this were true then what is being stated is that the eletricuit people but dont beat them?? where is the logic??

let us not be naive...

First off, taking as many prisoners as the military did creates a major problem. These aren't uniformed military personel, they are terrorists and extremists. Many of these people are thought to possess valuable information, so aggressive interrogation techniques are used. As I mentioned earlier, the most common techniques are waterboarding and various forms of pyschological extremes. Cutting, breaking bones, or inflicting pain for pain's sake is not a U.S. practice, no matter how many "lol" you post. There are always going to be incidents in war that go against those principles, but the vast majority of U.S. military personel would never torture a prisoner.

As for these so-called "accounts" by former detainees, I hope you understand that Al-Qaeda members and Jihadists know that PR is the best weapon to use against the U.S. Which is why they videotape themselves beheading people and put it out for media consumption. What would you expect them to say?, "they treated me well'? Also, where did this "electrocution" claim come from? Waterboarding has nothing to do with electrocution.

[Snowflake]

Ya Allah please bring justice and your shower your mercy on the Ummah :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Rou]

First off, taking as many prisoners as the military did creates a major problem. These aren't uniformed military personel, they are terrorists and extremists. Many of these people are thought to possess valuable information, so aggressive interrogation techniques are used. As I mentioned earlier, the most common techniques are waterboarding and various forms of pyschological extremes. Cutting, breaking bones, or inflicting pain for pain's sake is not a U.S. practice, no matter how many "lol" you post. There are always going to be incidents in war that go against those principles, but the vast majority of U.S. military personel would never torture a prisoner.

As for these so-called "accounts" by former detainees, I hope you understand that Al-Qaeda members and Jihadists know that PR is the best weapon to use against the U.S. Which is why they videotape themselves beheading people and put it out for media consumption. What would you expect them to say?, "they treated me well'? Also, where did this "electrocution" claim come from? Waterboarding has nothing to do with electrocution.

what electrocution?

this one?

and no this is not the soul case that we all know of the vietnam war hosts many such cases as well as afganistan.

are you seriously stating that USA do not use electrocution?

think for a second if things such as these were not even accepted then either there are many brave soilders out there willing to go against everything they have been taught or majority of USA soilders are psycos?

Beatings not normal??

armed forces in iraq have been seen beating civlians forget so called insurgents?

its even been captured on video 3 youths being beaten by soilders these things are common place and you state they arent allowed??

naive..denial will always be present listen i dont care if you dont think thats what the US army does the truth matters and those who do such things will pay for it ten fold...

what you or i state wont matter in front of god...the truth will...

[Keltoi]

what electrocution?

this one?

and no this is not the soul case that we all know of the vietnam war hosts many such cases as well as afganistan.

are you seriously stating that USA do not use electrocution?

think for a second if things such as these were not even accepted then either there are many brave soilders out there willing to go against everything they have been taught or majority of USA soilders are psycos?

Beatings not normal??

armed forces in iraq have been seen beating civlians forget so called insurgents?

its even been captured on video 3 youths being beaten by soilders these things are common place and you state they arent allowed??

naive..denial will always be present listen i dont care if you dont think thats what the US army does the truth matters and those who do such things will pay for it ten fold...

what you or i state wont matter in front of god...the truth will...

According to the Congressional report released about the Abu Ghraib situation this was a staged picture. No electrocution took place. What happened at Abu Ghraib was the fault of an undertrained and entirely unprofessional prison environment.

As for the Vietnam War, that was a war full of atrocities from both sides. So was World War II....the 24 hour media cycle tends to make people believe that it is somehow worse in 2006. When you have 200,000 troops involved in a war there will be bad decisions made and alot of injustice. The point is the overall stance of the U.S. government and the U.S. military, which is very much against "torture" or abuse of prisoners. Pointing to a particular event involving a few soldiers and using that as a reflection of U.S. government policy is no different than watching terrorists saw an innocent person's head off on a videotape and claiming that is Islam in action.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

The point is the overall stance of the U.S. government and the U.S. military, which is very much against "torture" or abuse of prisoners.

Yet gauntanamo bay is still up. Look, I studied psychology in both AS and A level (previously stated, by the way), so I know what an average human being is capable of doing, and it isn't very humane. So, yes, the US and UK are very much against "torture", but you'd be surprised as to what the human can do with just the slightest of encouragement. (see obedience to authority experiments for clarification)

Pointing to a particular event involving a few soldiers and using that as a reflection of U.S. government policy is no different than watching terrorists saw an innocent person's head off on a videotape and claiming that is Islam in action.

The difference is however, if one names all US or UK as terrorists or similar names just on the basis of a few soldiers, one is seen as unpatriotic or a terrorist sympathiser (a "bad" guy). If one says all of Islam and muslims are terrorists based on same amount of soldiers, it is accepted.

[Rou]

According to the Congressional report released about the Abu Ghraib situation this was a staged picture. No electrocution took place. What happened at Abu Ghraib was the fault of an undertrained and entirely unprofessional prison environment.

As for the Vietnam War, that was a war full of atrocities from both sides. So was World War II....the 24 hour media cycle tends to make people believe that it is somehow worse in 2006. When you have 200,000 troops involved in a war there will be bad decisions made and alot of injustice. The point is the overall stance of the U.S. government and the U.S. military, which is very much against "torture" or abuse of prisoners. Pointing to a particular event involving a few soldiers and using that as a reflection of U.S. government policy is no different than watching terrorists saw an innocent person's head off on a videotape and claiming that is Islam in action.

*sigh* this conversation now is going into lets protect our own rubbish...

and blame the other bloke?

look those soilders who degrade and harm innocents are evil doers and i link them not with american people but with the goverment who enlists and allows such torture to take place where as you link them with yourself and your country that is your choice i would be ashamed if a goverment run army from my country harms innocents like this..i would certainly not band myself with them and protect them just beacuse they are from my land i have morals and with those morals i would judge that torturing anyone mainly civilians in such a way is not human...

terrorists with islam? hmm why would you judge what terrorists do with islam one has nothing to do with the other yet again as you seem to band evil doers with yourself you band those evil doers who behead innocents with islam?? they have nothing to do with islam narrow views make it very easy to make one race and enemy and the other a saviour that is not the case..

just as a few american soilders dont represent the whole of america , terrorists done in any way represent islam...? a very naice way of viewing the world...

as for the picture you seem to be stating things that are not fact...the picture is real and is of a innocent civilian who happend to be a mayor of a town in iraq after he was released he tesfiyed against what happend to him he is reconised by his hand that is deformed...

this pure denial of what is happening in iraq and its not the first time ive seen it some americans seem to take it upon themselves to protect soilders who have done clear wrong and there president who is blatenly biased and evil?

frankley im sick of bothering with these type of people the more it is explained that we dont view you all as evil only those who harm innocents the more excuses i hear?

whatever yeah yeah nothings happening over there ok your saving us the pictures were fake the people are all fine and dandy now at home eating dinner with there family watching friends or sumfin!?

denial....

and then you ask why muslims get angry or why they are fighting???????

when you deny there suffering and protect rapists and murderers then what the hell do you expect?

hypocrit?

200,000 troops involved and you must expect injustice and bad decisons?

2.1 billion muslims my friend!!! so a few make a wrong decison and WE all have to take this crap!?? whatever...do you not hear yourself?



19 bombers 9/11 (inaccurate as some of those are alive still)

6 bombers 7/7

-

iraq bombed thousands of innocents killed and millions displaced...

afgan thousands killed millions displaced....

there may be some injustices? try two countries full!

im finished with you keltoi your in denial and your wasting my time...

[Keltoi]

Well Rou, although your sentences are difficult to make sense of, I believe you are simply refusing to stick to the point. This conversation wasn't whether any American soldiers have ever done anything wrong. This was a thread about the use of "torture" and the various claims made by some about what they supposedly endured while at Gitmo. Any U.S. soldier proven to be involved in misconduct has and will be punished. If anyone is in denial it is you. Torture and abuse are not permitted. Has it ever happened? Obviously. Are those two realities so hard to understand? The vast majority of U.S. soldiers are highly trained, highly professional, and do their jobs well.

In response to aamirsaab, I make the statement that torture isn't condoned by the military or government and you state "yet Gitmo still exists". Contrary to what you might read in The Guardian, there hasn't been any evidence of torture or abuse at Gitmo. But what is Gitmo? It's a prison. In a prison, if you refuse to follow instruction or cause a disturbance you will be put in your place. The same as in any prison in the world. The people in there don't enjoy it. Imagine that. As for your analogy about making sweeping generalizations, I suppose I agree, although the analogy seems a bit whiney.

[Rou]

Well Rou, although your sentences are difficult to make sense of, I believe you are simply refusing to stick to the point. This conversation wasn't whether any American soldiers have ever done anything wrong. This was a thread about the use of "torture" and the various claims made by some about what they supposedly endured while at Gitmo. Any U.S. soldier proven to be involved in misconduct has and will be punished. If anyone is in denial it is you. Torture and abuse are not permitted. Has it ever happened? Obviously. Are those two realities so hard to understand? The vast majority of U.S. soldiers are highly trained, highly professional, and do their jobs well.

In response to aamirsaab, I make the statement that torture isn't condoned by the military or government and you state "yet Gitmo still exists". Contrary to what you might read in The Guardian, there hasn't been any evidence of torture or abuse at Gitmo. But what is Gitmo? It's a prison. In a prison, if you refuse to follow instruction or cause a disturbance you will be put in your place. The same as in any prison in the world. The people in there don't enjoy it. Imagine that. As for your analogy about making sweeping generalizations, I suppose I agree, although the analogy seems a bit whiney.

If you cannot grasp the english language that is not my concern my friend...

you state i am in denial? of what again?

i state that people have been tortured and they have i state that they were given the chance to do such a thing heance why they had the guts to think they would get away with it...

your defending evil doers keltoi if you had stated that not all are like this agree not all are is the bush adminastration doing this though yes they are...

and are they aiming to harm innocents indeed they are and allow many soilders to get away with such things until they are caught in the act at which point let them go down for it..

wake up...your view is narropw and biased and you seem to ignore fact and just blame even innocents over soilders merely for the fact that they are from your lands...??

as stated your wasting my time as i said electricution had been used yet you deny it whats the point in facts if your going to ignore them any way!?!?

finished with you mate...

theres seems no point so :w:

[Keltoi]

What facts Rou? I apologize that it takes more than your opinion to convince me of anything. You speak of being narrow-minded and biased, yet you are willing to accept the claims of known terrorists and the Al-Qaeda propoganda machine over the International Red Cross and the various other reputable organizations that have been inside Gitmo. While these organizations oppose the Gitmo situation because the people have no legal representation, they have made no substantiated claims of actual "abuse". You also have to realize that cuffing a prisoner in the head for disobeying commands is not "abuse", sometimes that is necessary. If all you can come up with is some photograph from Abu Ghraib to "prove" this widespread torture being committed by the U.S. military, then I suppose we can agree to both be done with this conversation.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

So I guess those naked pics with the guys on top of each other mean nothing ?

[Keltoi]

So I guess those naked pics with the guys on top of each other mean nothing ?

What does it mean?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

im askin u son, dont play games lol.

[GARY]

I must commend you Keltoi on your ability to maintain your cool while dealing with such abuse. I wouldn't get to concerned about it though. The individual that you have been arguing with often lashes out with insults when he feels he is losing the argument. I noticed it was a full 7 posts before you even hinted at a retaliatory remark. Something you said really made sense though, it was mention of not sticking to the point. It seems that the arguments offered are all over the place and have nothing to do with the discussion. Very true. Anyway, good job at keeping your head while dealing with a difficult person.

[Keltoi]

im askin u son, dont play games lol.

I'm not your son, but the only thing it means to me is that several undisciplined weekend warriors made a mockery of their responsibilities and cost the American taxpayer money in order to throw them in jail.

[Woodrow]

When a thread gets reduced to personal arguements, it is best to end it before things get worse.


:threadclo