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syilla
11-14-2006, 03:43 AM
:sl:

i have invited him/her to come. But he/she refused.

so please anyone can you please tell me how to reply for the below quote

Suppose you have been brought up in a deep religious home; you have been told by your parents to believe in god, go to mosque, pray and fast but you have never had to learn to justify or argue for your beliefs. You know that, although there are people who would disagree with you, your belief is a righteous and necessary one, but you have never had to explain this to anyone, nor have tried to explain it to yourself.

But now, you are in the real world. You enter college, travel, and such. You are confronted by fellow friends, colleagues (or your bf/gf lol), who openly skeptical about religion. Others accept very different doctrines and beliefs, and vociferously defend these. Your first reactions may be almost physical; you feel weak, flushed, and anxious. You refuse to listen, and if you respond at all, it is with a tinge of hysteria. You may get into fights as well as arguments. You feel as if some foundation of your life, one of its main supports, is slipping away.

Now here is the turning point. You thought you got it all sorted out; you begin openly bash atheists, naively. You lose.You give yourself enough distance so that you will consider arguments about religion in just the same way you would consider arguments about some scientific or political dispute. Are the opposing arguments persuasive? Are their reasons good reasons? You ask yourself why you believe what you believe? You may come up with the answer that you were conditioned by your parents and by the society in general. Consequently, you realize you are not as 'true' as you thought you were, you naively murtad. You may perhaps for a lifetime, question or reject the ideas you had once 'naturally' accepted, which perhaps be 'the right path', but since you are so naive, you unable to justify your beliefs.

Do you want this to happen to you? If no, start hitting the books. Learn formal logic (mantiq, lihat quote Ibn. Rushd kat bawah), learn philosophy, and learn the opposing views. Ibn. Sina, Ibn. Rushd yang korang dok sebut-sebut, dok puji-puji dalam tv, scholars yang kita agong-agong kan kehebatannya, try baca diorang punya kerja2 (kalau tak pandai macam aku, baca la dengan commentaries). Arguing with atheists, proving the existence of god, and such may raises an immediate epistemological problems. If you never even heard the word 'epistemology', do you think you could argue with them? Read and read and read.

Mengenai reasoning mengenai tuhan, Ibn. Rushd dalam hal ni apa dia kata?

"But it is preferable and even necessary for anyone, who wants to understand God the Exalted and the other beings demonstratively, to have first understood the kinds of demonstration and their conditions [of validity], and in what respects demonstrative reasoning differs from dialectical, rhetorical, and fallacious reasoning. But this is not possible unless he has previously learned what reasoning as such is, and how many kinds it has, and which of them are valid and which invalid. The in turn is not possible unless he has previously learned the parts of reasoning, of which it is composed, i.e. the premises and their kinds" [Ibn. Rushd, "On the Philosophic Study of God"] [Ref: Introducing Philosophy, Oxford University Press]


I rest my case.
:cry: i think he is a muslim. He doesn't believe there is god...(or maybe in doubt).
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north_malaysian
11-14-2006, 05:01 AM
Erk..... :uuh:
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syilla
11-14-2006, 08:17 AM
the guy is only testing me and is making fun of me. :uuh:

can any mod please delete this thread.

thank you so much
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lolwatever
11-14-2006, 08:24 AM
sis can u transalte the malay bit?
kinda got ar eply setup... he's jerky
salamz


Suppose you have been brought up in a deep religious home; you have been told by your parents to believe in god, go to mosque, pray and fast but you have never had to learn to justify or argue for your beliefs. You know that, although there are people who would disagree with you, your belief is a righteous and necessary one, but you have never had to explain this to anyone, nor have tried to explain it to yourself.
lol well here we all are on the forum doin exactly wat ur accusin us of not doin....

But now, you are in the real world. You enter college, travel, and such. You are confronted by fellow friends, colleagues (or your bf/gf lol), who openly skeptical about religion. Others accept very different doctrines and beliefs, and vociferously defend these. Your first reactions may be almost physical; you feel weak, flushed, and anxious. You refuse to listen, and if you respond at all, it is with a tinge of hysteria. You may get into fights as well as arguments. You feel as if some foundation of your life, one of its main supports, is slipping away.
wats ur point?

Now here is the turning point. You thought you got it all sorted out; you begin openly bash atheists, naively. You lose.You give yourself enough distance so that you will consider arguments about religion in just the same way you would consider arguments about some scientific or political dispute. Are the opposing arguments persuasive? Are their reasons good reasons? You ask yourself why you believe what you believe? You may come up with the answer that you were conditioned by your parents and by the society in general. Consequently, you realize you are not as 'true' as you thought you were, you naively murtad. You may perhaps for a lifetime, question or reject the ideas you had once 'naturally' accepted, which perhaps be 'the right path', but since you are so naive, you unable to justify your beliefs.
lol if anythign it seems ur the one who cant standup or criticise the arguments we present by virtu eof the fact ur not willign to even join here in discussion..... if wat you say is true, then why not come here n try persuade us n shake up our beliefs? as wats occurin in many other threads here... too bad most athiests miss the point tho.

Do you want this to happen to you? If no, start hitting the books. Learn formal logic (mantiq, lihat quote Ibn. Rushd kat bawah), learn philosophy, and learn the opposing views. Ibn. Sina, Ibn. Rushd yang korang dok sebut-sebut, dok puji-puji dalam tv, scholars yang kita agong-agong kan kehebatannya, try baca diorang punya kerja2 (kalau tak pandai macam aku, baca la dengan commentaries). Arguing with atheists, proving the existence of god, and such may raises an immediate epistemological problems. If you never even heard the word 'epistemology', do you think you could argue with them? Read and read and read.
the malay mixes me up... but philosophy doesnt get you anywhere, we Islam is simple doesnt need any extra philosophications to explain it.. its a natural religion and anyone who's open minded and contemplaets what Allah has to say in the quran would find it to be straightforward and decent....

We have enough rationalisations presentedt o us by Allah in the quran for his existance... why do we need to resort to other potentially flawed logics and argumetns which get defeated every now adnt hen?

Mengenai reasoning mengenai tuhan, Ibn. Rushd dalam hal ni apa dia kata?
eh?

"But it is preferable and even necessary for anyone, who wants to understand God the Exalted and the other beings demonstratively, to have first understood the kinds of demonstration and their conditions [of validity], and in what respects demonstrative reasoning differs from dialectical, rhetorical, and fallacious reasoning. But this is not possible unless he has previously learned what reasoning as such is, and how many kinds it has, and which of them are valid and which invalid. The in turn is not possible unless he has previously learned the parts of reasoning, of which it is composed, i.e. the premises and their kinds" [Ibn. Rushd, "On the Philosophic Study of God"] [Ref: Introducing Philosophy, Oxford University Press]
yes.. its useful for people who have no basis to start with, e.g. Non Muslims, they need to create their own way of thining... but Allah already showed us miracles and signs that leave any reasonable person beyond doubt of his existance.



I rest my case.
so do i :uhwhat
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syilla
11-14-2006, 08:35 AM
Mengenai reasoning mengenai tuhan, Ibn. Rushd dalam hal ni apa dia kata?
with regards the reasoning about god (something like that)...what did Ibn Rushid said?

i hope this help...

thank you brother...you're so nice to reply to this thread
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glo
11-14-2006, 08:38 AM
Actually, I think this person is making some very good points:
But now, you are in the real world. You enter college, travel, and such. You are confronted by fellow friends, colleagues (or your bf/gf lol), who openly skeptical about religion. Others accept very different doctrines and beliefs, and vociferously defend these. Your first reactions may be almost physical; you feel weak, flushed, and anxious. You refuse to listen, and if you respond at all, it is with a tinge of hysteria. You may get into fights as well as arguments. You feel as if some foundation of your life, one of its main supports, is slipping away.
When you enter into interfaith dialog or into discussion with non-believers, you should not do so without being well prepared or without back-up from others.
Because your faith will be tested!!

You will find your views being challenged, and you will have to be prepared to work through that!
You will come across views and opinions which may make or break your faith.
If you don't have the strength to do that, you should not even attempt it! I am quite serious here. Not all people are gifted to enter into religious debate.
It is not a measure of your love for God or your level of faith - it just means that your gifts may lie elsewhere!


peace :)
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syilla
11-14-2006, 08:40 AM
Ibn. Sina, Ibn. Rushd yang korang dok sebut-sebut, dok puji-puji dalam tv, scholars yang kita agong-agong kan kehebatannya, try baca diorang punya kerja2 (kalau tak pandai macam aku, baca la dengan commentaries).
Ibn. Sina, Ibn Rushd whom you kept mentioning, praised in the tv, the scholars that we praise highly...try to read their work (if not clever like me, try reading the commentaries <--- :uuh: :uuh: well...maybe he is really making fun of me)
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syilla
11-14-2006, 08:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Actually, I think this person is making some very good points:


When you enter into interfaith dialog or into discussion with non-believers, you should not do so without being well prepared or without back-up from others.
Because your faith will be tested!!

You will find your views being challenged, and you will have to be prepared to work through that!
You will come across views and opinions which may make or break your faith.
If you don't have the strength to do that, you should not even attempt it! I am quite serious here. Not all people are gifted to enter into religious debate.
It is not a measure of your love for God or your level of faith - it just means that your gifts may lie elsewhere!


peace :)
thats the problem...i did not enter into those kind of dialog.

he came and bash me on the head .... :offended:

well...he messaged me...and he just discussing it with me (and i'm guessing he is trying to test my intellectual...which i think my intellectual in regards with this kind of topic is rock bottom)
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syilla
11-14-2006, 08:49 AM
Arguing with atheists, proving the existence of god, and such may raises an immediate epistemological problems. If you never even heard the word 'epistemology', do you think you could argue with them? Read and read and read.
btw what is really epistemological problems?

can anyone care to explain it to me?
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glo
11-14-2006, 08:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
thats the problem...i did not enter into those kind of dialog.

he came and bash me on the head .... :offended:

well...he messaged me...and he just discussing it with me (and i'm guessing he is trying to test my intellectual...which i think my intellectual in regards with this kind of topic is rock bottom)
That happens too, Syilla! :offended:

Be sensitive to when it is best to walk away!
Remember that some people really don't want to enter into a balanced debate - they just want to destroy the faith of others!!
I am a little worried, sister, about the kinds of discussions you seem to get yourself into (Did you not post another thread recently about an argument you had on a BBC site? If that wasn't you, forgive me. I could be wrong)

Be safe, sister.:)

btw what is really epistemological problems?
I don't know, but I found this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

Again, Syilla ... unless you understand this topic well (which you don't seem to), don't enter into a discussion about it!
What do you need to prove to this guy?? Nothing!

Peace
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syilla
11-14-2006, 09:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
(Did you not post another thread recently about an argument you had on a BBC site? If that wasn't you, forgive me. I could be wrong)

which one. I hardly seem to remember.

actually...i'm never into this kind of debate. i really hate debate :D...not good at it. I'm usually emotionally affected with debates :giggling:
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syilla
11-14-2006, 09:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Again, Syilla ... unless you understand this topic well (which you don't seem to), don't enter into a discussion about it!
What do you need to prove to this guy?? Nothing!

Peace
actually it is me who created it...:D i thought i know my topic well :rollseyes.

but don't ask me what the topic is all about...maybe i've lead them into the wrong direction. :giggling: :giggling:

but the topic is still going....hmmm....
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glo
11-14-2006, 09:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
which one. I hardly seem to remember.
It probably wasn't you then

actually...i'm never into this kind of debate. i really hate debate :D...not good at it. I'm usually emotionally affected with debates :giggling:
I can relate to that! :giggling:

peace, sis
:)
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north_malaysian
11-14-2006, 09:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
Ibn. Sina, Ibn Rushd whom you kept mentioning, praised in the tv, the scholars that we praise highly...try to read their work (if not clever like me, try reading the commentaries <--- :uuh: :uuh: well...maybe he is really making fun of me)
He's so cocky.... :grumbling
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syilla
11-14-2006, 09:14 AM
yeah...maybe he is trying to remind me to be prepared, in case a real atheist did ask me.

but yeah...i know how you felt nm...

maybe he is joking ...i don't really know..
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north_malaysian
11-14-2006, 09:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
yeah...maybe he is trying to remind me to be prepared, in case a real atheist did ask me.

but yeah...i know how you felt nm...

maybe he is joking ...i don't really know..
from this word:

"kalau tak pandai macam aku, baca la dengan commentaries"
"If you're not intelligent like ME (which means he's genius and all of us ordinary people are stupids), please read it with commentaries"

I dont think it's a joke ... IT's TOO HARSH TO SAY LIKE THAT ... He's not humble at all...:offended:
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duskiness
11-14-2006, 10:46 AM
He doesn't seem to be nice guy. He is quite deliberately making his point in such a way that it would be harder to understand him. As cleaver as he may be, he haven't learned one - discussion is about making other understanad your point and you trying to understand their. it's not an contest "who sounds more clever"

Epistemology is trying to answer questions like: "what is knowledge?", "can we really know something?" "how we know something is true?". in discussing God's existence it comes with questions "can we know that He exists?" or "can we prove He exists?".
Mentioning epistemology, your "friend" was probably pointing out that you can't prove God's existence or know if He exists.

As for Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd - they were very unorthodox Muslims. (believes like world is eternal, collective soul or 2 souls, philosophy is "better " way to God than faith).
don't think that, i'm so cleaver to remember what they said - i had to look iy up in book :D
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Umar001
11-14-2006, 11:19 AM
I don't get it,

He seems to be saying good things but then they are not good?

You see I do agre with the fact that some people bring their kids up saying things like:

"Put your hijab on!" or "Praise Jesus!" and so on, but the parents never end up explaining the reason behind it or anything, so the kids grow up and then they leave their religion.

With regards to this guy, I don't know what he is on about, all I do when Im out of depth in a conversation is give some appropiate links and then tell him/her I cannot do anymore, there's no shame in admiting that you dont have enough knowledge to argue about something.

Just say, "Look if you would like to discuss this further, I know some people who are smarter than me and will do more justice to the arguement which would result in a more beneficial debate so here's the link" Blam! finito.

Or you could invite us all to that forum and we all go under names like 'LI ISLAMICBOARD IsaABdullah' and 'LI ISLAMICBOARDso and so'

lol
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IbnAbdulHakim
11-14-2006, 11:25 AM
sis in all honesty the guy might either have low imaan or messed aqeedah, honestly i never faced any problems with atheists, infact they've actually agreed with me many times and said my way of life seems straight... no lie.

i really think its just the dude... may Allah guide him inshaAllah ta'ala.

:salamext:
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syilla
11-15-2006, 12:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
I don't get it,

He seems to be saying good things but then they are not good?

You see I do agre with the fact that some people bring their kids up saying things like:

"Put your hijab on!" or "Praise Jesus!" and so on, but the parents never end up explaining the reason behind it or anything, so the kids grow up and then they leave their religion.

With regards to this guy, I don't know what he is on about, all I do when Im out of depth in a conversation is give some appropiate links and then tell him/her I cannot do anymore, there's no shame in admiting that you dont have enough knowledge to argue about something.

Just say, "Look if you would like to discuss this further, I know some people who are smarter than me and will do more justice to the arguement which would result in a more beneficial debate so here's the link" Blam! finito.

Or you could invite us all to that forum and we all go under names like 'LI ISLAMICBOARD IsaABdullah' and 'LI ISLAMICBOARDso and so'

lol

you are right. i agree...sometimes it is good to admit that we don't have enough knowledge to argue.

i have told him that....i'm not the master of comparative religion...but i still can't understand what he is trying to prove.

maybe he is trying to tell me that i should learn more about logic, maths, science and etc if someone is trying to question me the existence of god. :?

For what i know...in islam you don't have to be a genious to know the existence of god.
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syilla
11-15-2006, 12:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
sis in all honesty the guy might either have low imaan or messed aqeedah, honestly i never faced any problems with atheists, infact they've actually agreed with me many times and said my way of life seems straight... no lie.

i really think its just the dude... may Allah guide him inshaAllah ta'ala.

:salamext:

you are right too...it depends on the way we're debating.

We don't have to prove them there are signs of Allah subhanahuwataa'la everywhere....we only have to show them the signs and what we believe in.

If they still can't accept that and can't see what we believe in....it is too bad for them.

(however...it still haunts me why they are so blind to see...as i felt that the signs are everywhere :offended: ) <<--can anyone give me a hadith or ayaah on this.
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north_malaysian
11-15-2006, 03:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness
He doesn't seem to be nice guy.
By looking to the Malay words he said - yes ... he doesnt seem to be a nice guy...
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Skillganon
11-15-2006, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
:sl:

i have invited him/her to come. But he/she refused.

so please anyone can you please tell me how to reply for the below quote



:cry: i think he is a muslim. He doesn't believe there is god...(or maybe in doubt).
Well, you can take some Lecture by Gary Miller.
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