Discussion with a Christian about the Crucifixion

[islamicfajr]

Wellcome here..

Discussion with a Christian about the Crucifixion

Question:
Why is it so difficult for the Muslims to believe that Christ was crucified to erase our sins? Why do they reject the idea of the Crucifixion altogether?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

There is nothing strange about the Muslims rejecting this idea, because the Qur’aan in which they believe and accept what it tells them definitively states that that did not happen, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And because of their saying (in boast), ‘We killed Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,’ — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]”

[al-Nisa’ 4:157]

Rather the problem rests with the Christians for whom the doctrine of the crucifixion and redemption has become a central issue, so much so that the cross is the symbol of their religion.
It is strange that they differ concerning the form of this cross which indicates their confusion about this fabrication.
There are differences between their Gospels and their historians regarding everything that has to do with the story of the crucifixion.
They differ concerning the timing of the Last Supper, which according to them was one of the events in the lead-up to the crucifixion. They differ concerning the traitor who led (the Romans) to Christ – did that happen at least one day before the Last Supper, as narrated by Luke, or during it, after Christ gave him the piece of bread, as narrated by John?

Was Christ the one who carried his cross, as John says, as was customary with one who was going to be crucified, according to Nottingham, or was it Simon of Cyrene, as the other three Gospels state?

They say that two thieves were crucified alongside Christ, one on his right and one on his left, so what was the attitude of these two towards the Messiah who was being crucified, as they claim?

Did the thieves scorn him for being crucified, and say that his Lord had abandoned him and left him to his enemies? Or did only one of them scorn him, and did the other rebuke the one who scorned him?

At what hour did this crucifixion take place – was it in the third hour, as Mark says, or in the sixth as John says?

What happened after the so-called crucifixion?

Mark says that the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom. Matthew adds that the earth shook and rocks crumbled, and many of the saints rose from their graves and entered the holy city, appearing to many. Luke says that the sun turned dark, and the veil of the Temple was torn in the middle, and when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God and said, “Truly this man was righteous.”
But John does not know anything about all that!

These are not the only weak elements and indications of falseness in the story of the crucifixion, as narrated in the gospels. Rather the one who studies the details of the gospel narratives of this story will, with the least effort, notice the great differences in the details of this story, which are such that it is impossible to believe it all or even any part of it!

How desperate are the failed attempts to fill this gap and conceal the faults of this distorted book. Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said in His Book which He has preserved (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do they not then consider the Qur’aan carefully? Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”
[al-Nisa’ 4:82]

Apart from the fact that the gospel accounts are not sound, and their authors themselves admit that they were not revealed to the Messiah in this form, nor were they even written during his lifetime, none of the witnesses were present at the events to which they testify, as Mark says:

“Then everyone deserted him and fled.”
Mark 14:50 – New International Version (NIV)


Because these events were not witnessed by anyone who narrated them, there is a great deal of room for imagination and poetic licence.
We will complete our discussion of the fable of the crucifixion of Christ (peace be upon him) by looking at what the Gospels say about the Messiah’s prediction that he would be saved from death:
On one occasion the Pharisees and chief priests sent the guards to arrest him and he said to them:

“I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. You will look for me, but you will not find me, and where I am, you cannot come.”

John 7:33-34 – NIV

Elsewhere he says:

“Once more Jesus said to them, ‘I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.’
This made the Jews ask, ‘Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, “Where I go, you cannot come”?’

But he continued, ‘You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.’
‘Who are you?’ they asked.

‘Just what I have been claiming all along,’ Jesus replied. ‘I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.’

They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.
So Jesus said, ‘When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.’”
John 8:21-29 – NIV

Then at the end he tells them again:

“For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”

Matthew 23:39 – NIV, also Luke 13:35

The Messiah, as these texts and others show, was certain that God would never hand him over to his enemies, and would never forsake him.

“But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
John 16:32-33

Because of that the passers by, and indeed everyone who attended the so-called crucifixion, mocked the Messiah, as the writer of this Gospel says (although that could not have been true):

“Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads
and saying, ‘You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!’

In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him.

‘He saved others,’ they said, ‘but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him.

He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, “I am the Son of God.”’
In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.”

Matthew 27:39-44 – NIV

But it seems that Jesus’ certainty that God was with him began to waver, according to the distorted Gospel narrative, (although that could not have been true):

“Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, ‘Sit here while I go over there and pray.’
He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
Then he said to them, ‘My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.’
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.’
Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping.
…
He went away a second time and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.’

When he came back, he again found them sleeping, …
So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, ‘Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners’”

Matthew 26:36-45 – NIV

Luke describes the scene and says:
“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow.

‘Why are you sleeping?’ he asked them. ‘Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.’”
Luke 22:44-46 – NIV

Because of this mockery of the message of Christ – according to their claims – and because Christ thought that God was with him and would never forsake him, then it follows that the writer who fabricated this dramatic scene would end it with a vision of the despair of the Messiah and his feelings of being abandoned by God – exalted be Allaah far above what the wrongdoers say. The fabricator says:

“From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land.

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?’--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Matthew 27:38-47 – NIV

See also Mark 15:34

If we understand what this story means when subjected to criticism, the same will apply to the doctrine of redemption and sacrifice that is based on it.
With regard to the Christian doctrine of salvation, see also question no. 6
And Allaah is the Source of strength and the guide to the Straight Path, and there is no Lord but He.



Islam Q&A


peace,

islamicfajr

[Joe98]

Actually it proves there cannot be a god. If there were a god he would not have organised the whole thing so badly.

[Malaikah]

:sl:

wow wicked post!

Joe98, your post makes no sense.

[syilla]

Actually it proves there cannot be a god. If there were a god he would not have organised the whole thing so badly.

organised what? :? :?

:rollseyes

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[IzakHalevas]

I believe Joe is refering to the fact that if G-d is all knowing, why did he not forsee all of this happening? A statement, which no one has produced an answer for, and I am curious to see what people may say. My belief, is that everyone was a false prophet and the Torah is sill true, but I respect your beliefs and look foward to your comments on Joe's post.

[Malaikah]

^If that is what he meants, it in no way proves that there is no God! It only provides evidence that christianity has issues.

[Skillganon]

My belief, is that everyone was a false prophet and the Torah is sill true, but I respect your beliefs and look foward to your comments on Joe's post.

On what basis?

Qur'an, its Surah Al-Baqarah verse 87 it says:

"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers; we gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a Messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride? Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!"

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

The man who was killed in place of Jesus(pbuh), was a betrayer. He wasn't a good innocent person, according to Islam.

[Trumble]

These are not the only weak elements and indications of falseness in the story of the crucifixion, as narrated in the gospels. Rather the one who studies the details of the gospel narratives of this story will, with the least effort, notice the great differences in the details of this story, which are such that it is impossible to believe it all or even any part of it!

How desperate are the failed attempts to fill this gap and conceal the faults of this distorted book.

Why do so-called 'scholars' bother with this rubbish rather than finding something more useful to do?

Self-evidently it is not "impossible" to believe it as Christians don't have any trouble. They accept quite happily (or at least most of them do) that the Gospels were written by different authors at different times some time after the events described, and that small differences in detail (and that's all it is,detail) were probably inevitable. I just doesn't bother them.

There is no "desperation" whatsoever as the core elements, what is actually important, is accepted by all. As, unlike the Qur'an, the Bible is not (generally) believed to be the direct Word of God, such inconsistencies are of no real importance, making all muslim attempts to "disprove" the Bible by dragging them up irrelevant to anyone but muslims - who don't need them anyway.

[Muslim Knight]

Actually it proves there cannot be a god. If there were a god he would not have organised the whole thing so badly.

Actually there can be God. And in the Quran, He explains why the whole thing was "organized" as it is so;

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (Surah Al-Maaida 5:48)

We can debate all we want about Cruxifixion but Allah tells us that Jesus 'alayhi salaam is one of His Prophets and he hadn't been crucified and that he did not die.

That they (the Jews) said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- (Surah An-Nisaa' 4:157)

It is in God's Plan for the whole thing to go off as it had gone so (however bad you may see it, it is of your own perspective) that men will be tested whether they will submit to Him (in worship) or follow a conjecture and worship Jesus despite being repeatedly proven that he's just a human being albeit a Prophet chosen by Allah.

Just my two cents. Wallahu 'alam.

[duskiness]

My dear islamicfajr,
in Quran you will also find verses that at first sight are contradicting each other, are calling people to kill others, allow wife beating...(i bet you know this list). And then you turn to history of text, to Arabic dictionaries or simply to commentaries.
Could you be so nice and apply the same rules, you use yourself (and probably ask others to use when speaking about Quran) to speaking about Bible???:?

I believe that Jesus had a moment of doubt and was mocked. I have no problems with it. I don't know why it's so strange to you?

this fabrication

How desperate are the failed attempts to fill this gap and conceal the faults of this distorted book.

gospel accounts are not sound

the fable of the crucifixion of Christ

This unsound fabrication about this fable is important to me. i don't ask you to believe it, or stop your tries to prove me wrong. But i think it would be nice, if you could respect my faith.:?

I'm here ....let me check it...since June. Something like 5 months :uuh: . And today i'm tired.
I'm also tried both physically and mentally, what probably also plays it role..but right now I'm tried of being Christian on LI
As much as like LI and you all, I'm tired of being "called to blackboard" and being "proved" what an idiot i must be believing in Christ.
So i'm taking holidays from forum.

All the best to you all! you are really a great bunch of people! I hope i will be back sometime in the future.

The LORD bless you and keep you;
the LORD make his face shine upon you
and be gracious to you;

Till then!
natalia

[Malaikah]

I believe that Jesus had a moment of doubt and was mocked. I have no problems with it. I don't know why it's so strange to you?

It's strange because you believe he is God! God- the All Knowing! The All Powerful! What does He have to doubt in? Is He to be overcome by His creations?? :heated:

If there is room for God Himself to have doubts, what does that leave for us humans?:offended:

[Eric H]

Hello natalia; I hope that you are able to survive this experience and come back again. You bring a wonderful gift to this forum by living your faith despite all your anxiety.

I'm here ....let me check it...since June. Something like 5 months . And today i'm tired.
I'm also tried both physically and mentally, what probably also plays it role..but right now I'm tried of being Christian on LI
As much as like LI and you all, I'm tired of being "called to blackboard" and being "proved" what an idiot i must be believing in Christ.
So i'm taking holidays from forum.

I am so sorry that you are suffering inside, forums can be a bruising experience especially if we are in the minority, and I also suffer as a Christian with some of the replies. I have to admire your courage to take a break and not yield to the temptation of retaliating in an angry way.

I have found the need to pray for peace in my own heart, somehow that gives me some kind of perseverance to keep going but it can be difficult at times.

You have again highlighted why it is so important for all of us to be kind to each other despite our differences. Of course we disagree and that is not so important, how we treat each other is key to human relationships.

May the Lord bless you.

Eric

[islamicfajr]

u believe jesus as..God.. see :If Jesus was GOD

Aslo i'm here to show u : The Door to Eternal Paradise
...to :Salvation from Hellfire
..To find : Real Happiness and Inner Peace

ur Here to know about islam :Is the Religion True or False?

see : Unique Features of Islaam

...when u reverted to islam = Forgiveness for All Previous Sins

to show u : A-Z of Islam

if i talk about Bible and saied : Is The Bible God's Word?

that's to show u the Tuth..

when u talk about killing ppls see :Does Islam = Terrorism?

any way All some Articles Quoted from Bible:

As :Who is the Awaited Prophet in the Bible?

and : Biblical Prophecies on the Advent of Muhammad

Muhummed The Natural Successor To Christ

Also to show u : The True Message of Jesus Christ

and we give u simple Article about :Christ in Islam

u shall know .. ISLAAM - The Call to Submission

Alhamduillah..we have the Holy Quran..

see: On the Virtues and Excellence of the Qur'aan

we believe in the prophet muhammad:arabic5: the most revered prophet

The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." (2:285)

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
"We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers."
[al-Baqarah 2:285].

Ibn Katheer said in his Tafseer of this aayah:

The believers believe in all the Prophets and Messengers, and the books revealed from heaven to the slaves of Allaah, the Messengers and Prophets; they do not differentiate between any of them, believing in some and rejecting others. Rather they regard all of them as truthful, righteous, rightly-guided and guiding to the path of goodness, even though some of them abrogated the laws of others, until all of them were abrogated by the sharee’ah of Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets and Messengers, upon whose sharee’ah the Hour will cone.(Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/736)

With regard to the superiority of some of the Prophets over one another, Allaah has told us of this, when He said (interpretation of the meaning):
“Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others; to some of them Allaah spoke (directly); others He raised to degrees (of honour)”
[al-Baqarah 2:253]

Allaah tells us that some of them are several degrees above others, hence the chosen ones among the Messengers are “those of strong will”.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And (remember) when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from you (O Muhammad), and from Nooh (Noah), Ibraaheem (Abraham), Moosaa (Moses), and ‘Eesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary). We took from them a strong covenant”
[al-Ahzaab 33:7]

And Muhammad

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the best of them. This is indicated by the fact that he was their imaam on the night of the Mi’raaj, because no one but the best is put forward. More evidence that he is the best of them comes from Abu Hurayrah, who said: “The Messenger of Allaah

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘I will be the leader of the sons of Adam on the Day of Resurrection, and the first one for whom the grave will be opened, and the first to intercede, and the first whose intercession will be accepted.’”
(Narrated by Muslim, al-Fadaa’il, 4223)

Al-Nawawi said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim:

The phrase “I will be the leader of the sons of Adam on the Day of Resurrection and the first one for whom the grave will be opened, and the first to intercede, and the first whose intercession will be accepted”: al-Harawi said: the leader (sayyid) is the one who surpasses his people in goodness. Someone else said: He is the one to whom they turn at times of calamity and hardship, so he takes care of them, carries their burdens and protects them.

The phrase “the Day of Resurrection” – even though he is their leader in this world and in the Hereafter. The reason for this specific mention is that on the Day of Resurrection his position of leadership will become apparent to everyone, and there will no longer be anyone who disputes or stubbornly rejects it, unlike the case in this world when the kings of the kuffaar and the leaders of the mushrikeen competed with him. The scholars said, he

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not say ““I will be the leader of the sons of Adam” out of pride. Indeed, that is clearly stated in the famous hadeeth narrated by compilers other than Muslim: “I will be the leader of the sons of Adam, and I am not boasting.” Rather, he said it for two reasons. The first was in obedience to the command of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning): “And proclaim the Grace of your Lord”, and the second was that it was part of the message that he was commanded to convey in totality to his ummah so that they would acknowledge his status and believe in him, and do as he commanded, and respect him

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as required by his status and as Allaah commanded them. This hadeeth implies that he is superior to all of creation, because the view of Ahl al-Sunnah is that human beings, i.e., the people of obedience and piety, are superior to the angels, and he

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is superior to human beings and to others. With regard to the other hadeeth – “Do not differentiate between the Prophets” – it may be responded to in five ways. The first is that he

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said this before he knew that he was the leader of the sons of Adam; then when he came to know he spoke of it. The second is that he said it out of politeness and humility. The third is that the prohibition refers to the kind of differentiation that leads to undermining the position of the one who is less preferred. The fourth is that the prohibition applies to the kind of differentiation that leads to dispute and fitnah (tribulation), as is well known in the reason for the hadeeth. The fifth is that the prohibition applies only in the case of prophethood itself, not to superiority within the ranks of the Prophets; rather, it applies to superiority in characteristics and other virtues, so it is essential to believe in that.
Allaah says

(interpretation of the meaning):
“Those Messengers! We preferred some of them to others…”
[al-Baqarah 2:253]
And Allaah knows best.
The characteristics of the Prophet

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) confirm that he is superior to the rest of the Messengers. We will mention some of them which are narrated in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:
Allaah has singled out the Qur’aan, to the exclusion of other Books, to be preserved.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)”
[al-Hijr 15:9]

In the case of the other Books, Allaah entrusted their protection to their people.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning]
“Verily, We did send down the Tawraat (Torah) [to Moosa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allaah’s Will, judged for the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged for the Jews by the Tawraat (Torah) after those Prophets], for to them was entrusted the protection of Allaah’s Book, and they were witnesses thereto
[al-Maa’idah 5:44]
He is the Seal of the Prophets and Messengers.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (end) of the Prophets”
[al-Ahzaab 33:40]
He is unique in that he was sent to all of mankind.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Blessed be He Who sent down the criterion (of right and wrong, i.e. this Qur’aan) to His slave (Muhammad) that he may be a warner to the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)”
[al-Furqaan 25:1]

Among his unique characteristics in the Hereafter:
He will be the owner of the “position of praise and glory (al-maqaam al-mahmood)” on the Day of Resurrection.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And in some parts of the night (also) offer the Salaah (prayer) with it (i.e. recite the Qur’aan in the prayer) as an additional prayer (Tahajjud optional prayer Nawaafil) for you (O Muhammad). It may be that your Lord will raise you to Maqaam Mahmood (a station of praise and glory, i.e., the honour of intercession on the Day of Resurrection)”
[al-Israa’ 17:78]

Ibn Jareer said: most of the commentators said that is the position which he

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) will occupy in order to intercede for the people on the Day of Resurrection, to ask that their Lord might grant them respite from the great hardship that they are suffering on this Day.”
(Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 5/103)

And he will be the leader of all of mankind on the Day of Resurrection, as stated in the hadeeth quoted above.
He will be the first one to cross al-Siraat with his ummah. Al-Bukhaari narrated a lengthy hadeeth concerning that from Abu Hurayrah, in which it says, “… and I will be the first one among the Messengers to lead his ummah across it.” (al-Adhaan, 764).

Another indication that he is the best of the Prophets is the fact that they will not intercede, rather one of them will refer the people to another, until ‘Eesa refers them to Muhammad

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He will say, “I (will do it),” then he will step forward to intercede for everyone, and the first and the last will praise him for that, the Prophets and the rest of mankind.
His unique characteristics, as mentioned in the ayaat and saheeh ahaadeeth, are too many to mention in this brief summary; entire books have been written on this topic.

See Kitaab Khasaa’is al-Mustafa (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) bayna al-Ghulw wa’l-Jafaa’ by al-Saadiq ibn Muhammad, 33-79

To sum up, we prefer our Prophet Muhammad

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) over all the other Prophets and over all of mankind, because of the evidence that has been narrated concerning that, whilst also respecting the rights of the other Prophets and Messengers and believing in them and respecting them

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plz keep in ur mind we here to attack other..we here to help the orther find the Turh..if u find my post no useful to u..or not remove any Misconceptions..it's k..

as : Misconception: Islam Degrades Women

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With regard to Muslim belief concerning jesus (peace be upon him), it is based on the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah. jesus ‘Eesa (Jesus) – (peace be upon him) – is one of the greatest Messengers. Muslims believe that ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) was taken up by Allaah into heaven alive, and that he was neither crucified nor killed. He will remain alive until the onset of the Hour approaches, then he will descend to earth and will kill the Dajjaal, break the cross and kill the pigs, and he will rule according to Islamic sharee’ah, then he will die – peace be upon him – like all other humans.

Imam Abu Muhammad ‘Abd al-Haqq ibn ‘Atiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The ummah is unanimously agreed on what is stated in the mutawaatir hadeeth that ‘Eesa (peace be upon him) is alive in heaven, and he will descend at the end of time and will kill the pigs, break the cross and kill the Dajjaal; justice will prevail and he will support this nation – the nation of Muhammad – and it will prevail as a result, and he will perform pilgrimage to the Ka’bah, doing Hajj and ‘Umrah, then Allaah will cause him to die.

Al-Muharrar al-Wajeez (3/143)

Al-Safaareeni (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
The ummah is unanimously agreed that he will descend and none of those who follow sharee’ah disagreed with that. Rather it was denied by the philosophers and heretics whose dissent is of no importance. There is consensus among the ummah that he will descend and will rule according to the sharee’ah of Muhammad

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). No new law will be revealed when he descends from heaven.
Lawaami’ al-Anwaar al-Bahiyyah (2/94, 95)


u should keep in ur mind that : Muslim belive in All Prophets ..

Allah wisdom decreed that Adam (peace be upon him) should be the father of mankind, and His wisdom, mercy and justice decreed that from among Adam’s progeny He should select an elite of Messengers and Prophets – may peace and blessings be upon them and upon our Prophet. Among those whom He chose and preferred over others were the Messengers of strong will [Uloo’l-‘Azm, see al-Ahqaaf 46:35],
namely, Muhammad, Ibraaheem, Nooh, Moosa and ‘Eesaa ibn Maryam, may the best of blessings and peace be upon them. And He chose and favoured above them all their leader, the final Messenger, our Prophet Muhammad ibn ‘Abd-Allaah

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He is indeed the leader of the sons of Adam, with no boast.

He will carry the banner and will be granted the power of intercession [on the Day of Resurrection].

He is the one who will attain al-maqaam al-mahmood (the Praised Position) in Paradise, which will be given to one person only, and that person will be our Prophet

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Hence Allaah took the covenant and pledge from all the Prophets that if Muhammad

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent during the lifetime of any one of them, they would be obliged to follow him

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), to leave behind what they had brought and follow what our Prophet

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) brought.

As Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And (remember) when Allaah took the Covenant of the Prophets, saying: ‘Take whatever I gave you from the Book and Hikmah (understanding of the Laws of Allaah), and afterwards there will come to you a Messenger (Muhammad) confirming what is with you; you must, then, believe in him and help him.’ Allaah said: ‘Do you agree (to it) and will you take up My Covenant (which I conclude with you)?’ They said: ‘We agree.’ He said: ‘Then bear witness; and I am with you among the witnesses (for this).’ Then whoever turns away after this, they are the Faasiqoon (rebellious: those who turn away from Allaah’s obedience)”
[Aal-Imraan 3:81-82]

The Prophet

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him): “By Allaah, if my brother Moosa were alive, he would have no choice but to follow me.”

And when the Messiah ‘Eesaa ibn Maryam (peace be upon him) comes down at the end of time, he will come to rule in accordance with the sharee’ah of Muhammad

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and he will follow him

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

All of the above refers to their status before Allaah. With regard to their religion, it is one religion, for they all called people to believe in One God, Allaah (Tawheed) and to devote worship sincerely to Him Alone. With regard to laws, each of them had his own law which was for his people alone.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way”
[al-Maa’idah 5:48]

. But the way (sharee’ah) of our Prophet Muhammad

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the most perfect, the best, the most complete and the most beloved to Allaah; it abrogates all laws that came before it. Undoubtedly the Prophets differ in status, and they are at varying levels. The best of them, as stated above, are the five Messengers of strong will (Uloo’l-‘Azm), and the best of them all is the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

the prophet Muhammed

is undoubtedly the best of them all, for he led them in prayer in Bayt al-Maqdis (Jerusalem) on the night of the Israa’. He will be the leader of the sons of Adam on the Day of Resurrection, and he is the only one among all the Messengers who will be granted the power of intercession on that Day. He

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the one who said: “From among the sons of Adam, Allaah chose Quraysh; from among Quraysh He chose Kinaanah; from among Kinaanah He chose Bani Haashim; and from among Bani Haashim He chose me.” He

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the Chosen One (al-Mustafaa) from among all of mankind.

Allah Saied:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Allah is the protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the Evil Ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be Companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (forever). (2:256-257)

================================================== ========

islam is the religion of Allah



Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning. (3 :19 )


islam is the religion accepted by Allah


And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. ( 3 :85)

Don't stop ..saying why...see : why islam ?

Ahamduillah ,Islam continues to be successful in the developed world, and elsewhere, because its call is in accordance with the fitrah or natural inclinations of mankind, and it advocates the best of human values, such as tolerance, love, mercy, truthfulness and sincerity.

Islam educates people and lifts them up to righteous conduct, good manners and virtue. Its call is distinguished from others by its realism, balance and moderation. Islam pays due attention to both the soul and the body. It neither suppresses physical desires nor allows extravagance in this regard; it makes a distinction between the natural inclination to enjoy the pleasures of this world and forbidden desires that come under the heading of depravity and perversion.

People embrace Islam because they find security, comfort and peace in it, they see a cure for their problems in it, and through it they are able to get rid of their feelings of confusion, anxiety and loss.

Islam is the religion of the fitrah, the natural inclination or pattern on which Allaah has created mankind. For this reason, people of sound minds and upright inclinations embrace Islam, as Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “The Messenger of Allaah

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘There is no child who is not born in a state of fitrah (i.e., Islam), then his parents make him into a Jew, a Christian or a Magian (Zoroastrian), just as animals produce whole animals (i.e., the animals are born perfect with no part of their bodies missing). Do you find any born with their ears cut off?’” Then Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “ ‘… Allaah’s handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allaah: that is the Standard Religion…’
[al-Room 30:30 – interpretation of the meaning – Yusuf Ali’s translation].”
(Reported by al-Bukhaari, 1359).



What is meant is that Allaah has created mankind with the potential to learn the truth, accept Tawheed (pure monotheism) and submit to Allaah. Their natural inclination is to learn Islam and love it, but a bad education, a kaafir (disbelieving) environment, their own whims and desires and the devils among jinn and mankind turn them away from the truth.

Mankind is basically inclined towards Tawheed (pure monotheism), as the Prophet

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) reported that his Lord (Allaah) said: “I created all my slaves as ‘hunafa’ (pure monetheists), but the devils turned them away from their religion.” (Reported by Muslim).

For this reason the one who becomes a Muslim after having been a disbeliever is described as having “reverted” to Islam, as this is more correct than saying that he “converted.” When Islam enters a country where there is no nationalism or great legacy of jaahiliyah (ignorance), it spreads quickly because of its strength and the small number of obstacles. You may also see that Islam is suitable for all people, educated and uneducated, male and female, old and young; everyone finds in it what he wants and needs. Those who become Muslim in developed countries realize what their country’s civilization and laws, which have been fabricated from men’s whims and desires, have done to them, and they realize the extent of the misery in which people in developed countries are living. They see how prevalent psychological illnesses, nervous breakdowns, insanity and suicides are, despite the technological advances and great number of discoveries and inventions and modern systems of management. This is because all of that is concerned only with the physical and the outward, but it neglects the inward and fails to nourish and nurture the heart and soul.

Allaah says of these people (interpretation of the meaning): “They know only the outside appearance of the life of the world, and they are heedless of the Hereafter.” [al-Room 30:7]

Islam will continue to succeed, with the permission of Allaah, so long as those who work for its sake are sincere and its followers adhere to it and believe in it, and apply its laws.

The fact that there are those who are not committed or who fall short will not prevent Islam from succeeding, with the permission of Allaah, and nothing can distort its beauty. Its light will not falter because some people abandon it or fail to adhere to it. What Islam has given humanity in the way of progress and civilization, and lifting them up from the darkness of oppression and enmity, is pride enough.

=============================================

islam is the Turth .....

..and Allah saied:

Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide, He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying, He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
(6:125)

The religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): nor did the people of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account (3:19)


If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (3:85)


=====================
[22] Is one whose heart Allah has opened to Islam, so that he has received enlightenment from Allah, (no better than one hard-hearted)? Woe to those whose hearts are hardened against celebrating the praises of Allah! they are manifestly wandering (in error)!

[23] Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide.

(39:22-23)


===================
Have We not expanded thee thy breast? (94:1)


But Allah saied:


[106].......but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

[107] This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and Allah will not guide those who reject Faith.

[108] Those are they whose hearts, ears, and eyes Allah has sealed up, and they take no heed.

[109] Without doubt, in the Hereafter they will perish.

(16:106-109)





=============================

Even i was born Arabic Muslim..but i know there is No nationality in islam..

i.e All Muslim is one Nation..

Allah send the last messenger prophet , Muhammad

to All (humans and jinns)

yeah.. islam is a universal (Messenger) ..Men and jinns

I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.(51:56)

"O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you Messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My Signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say: "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith. (6:130)


======================
[29] Behold, We turned towards thee a company of Jinns (quietly) listening to the Qur-an: when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, "Listen in silence!" when the (reading) was finished, they returned to their people, to warn (them of their sins).

[30] They said, "O our people! we have heard a Book revealed after Musa, confirming what came before it: it guides (men) to the Truth and to a Straight Path.

[31] "O our people, hearken to the one who invites (you) to Allah, and believe in him: He will forgive you your faults, and deliver you from a Penalty Grievous

[32] "If any does not hearken to the one who invites (us) to Allah, he cannot frustrate (Allah's Plan) on earth, and no protectors can he have besides Allah: such men (wander) in manifest error."

(46:31)

============================
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

[1] Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur-an). They said, ' We have really heard a wonderful Recital!

[2] 'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein: we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.

[3] `And exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.

[4] 'There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah;

[5] `But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that is untrue against Allah.

(72:1-5)
...........

[13] `And as for us, since we have listened to the Guidance, we have accepted it: and any who believes in his Lord has no fear, either of a short (account) or of any injustice.

[14] `Amongst us are some that submit their wills (to Allah), and some that swerve from justice. Now those who submit their wills; they have sought out (the path) of right conduct

(72:13-14)


................


Allah saied:

We have not sent thee but as a universal (Messenger) to men, giving them glad tidings, and warning them (against sin), but most men understand not. (34:28)

===============

Allah saied:


O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full Knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things). (49:13)


And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood. And I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other). (23:52)

The Believers are but a single Brotherhood... .(49:10)..

And hold fast, all together, by the Rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; .... (3:103)


======================
finally..Alhamduillah 4 blessing of islam..

Alhamduillah 4 be Muslim..Alhamduillah to born Muslim..

..............

1 would like to congratulate myselves for having been guided by Allaah to embrace Islam, the true and final religion. I ask Allaah to help me remain steadfast in adhering to it until we die.


peace,

islamicfajr

[snakelegs]

And today i'm tired.
I'm also tried both physically and mentally, what probably also plays it role..but right now I'm tried of being Christian on LI
As much as like LI and you all, I'm tired of being "called to blackboard" and being "proved" what an idiot i must be believing in Christ.
So i'm taking holidays from forum.

All the best to you all! you are really a great bunch of people! I hope i will be back sometime in the future.

Till then!
natalia

imsad i hope you come back after you've had some time to recover. i've enjoyed your posts. as far as i know, you have never been the least bit disrespectful, but you have frequently not been treated that way in return.
take care.

[islamicfajr]

..May Allah open ur Heart Ameen..

[Umar001]

The man who was killed in place of Jesus(pbuh), was a betrayer. He wasn't a good innocent person, according to Islam.

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah,

Sister, please show me that the man who was killed in Jesus' place, according to Islam was a bad person, I have yet to see this.

As a Christian I had heard so many different theories on who this person was, so please show me where Islam teaches the above.

Eesa :)

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I heard a lecture on it from i think Yusuf Estes or someone, I didnt read it. I'd have to look for it. All I know is i got it from a scholar and is not of my own...
Remember that it was made appear to them it was Jesus(pbuh), but rather it was someone else. Why would Allah(swt) cause death to an innocent? Think about it.
I can't explain the story cuz i heard of it a while back. So dont count on my words as of yet until im certain.

[Umar001]

I heard a lecture on it from i think Yusuf Estes or someone, I didnt read it. I'd have to look for it. All I know is i got it from a scholar and is not of my own...
Remember that it was made appear to them it was Jesus(pbuh), but rather it was someone else. Why would Allah(swt) cause death to an innocent? Think about it.
I can't explain the story cuz i heard of it a while back. So dont count on my words as of yet until im certain.

Well, I had read some statements from people of old that Jesus peace be upon him asked his companions and noone offered but a young guy and then Jesus peace be upon him said no and then he asked again and the young guy offered and so the young guy then took the place of Jesus peace be upon him.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I dont know then!
Maybe someone like bro Ansar could tell us :)
Allahu Alam!

[Les_Nubian]

My dear islamicfajr,
in Quran you will also find verses that at first sight are contradicting each other, are calling people to kill others, allow wife beating...(i bet you know this list). And then you turn to history of text, to Arabic dictionaries or simply to commentaries.
Could you be so nice and apply the same rules, you use yourself (and probably ask others to use when speaking about Quran) to speaking about Bible???:?

I believe that Jesus had a moment of doubt and was mocked. I have no problems with it. I don't know why it's so strange to you?



This unsound fabrication about this fable is important to me. i don't ask you to believe it, or stop your tries to prove me wrong. But i think it would be nice, if you could respect my faith.:?

I'm here ....let me check it...since June. Something like 5 months :uuh: . And today i'm tired.
I'm also tried both physically and mentally, what probably also plays it role..but right now I'm tried of being Christian on LI
As much as like LI and you all, I'm tired of being "called to blackboard" and being "proved" what an idiot i must be believing in Christ.
So i'm taking holidays from forum.

All the best to you all! you are really a great bunch of people! I hope i will be back sometime in the future.

Till then!
natalia

You're not an idiot for believing in Christ. We as Muslims believe in Christ too. We just don't worship him as God. We don't believe in the concept of a man-God.

[Grace Seeker]

It's strange because you believe he is God! God- the All Knowing! The All Powerful! What does He have to doubt in? Is He to be overcome by His creations?? :heated:

If there is room for God Himself to have doubts, what does that leave for us humans?:offended:

It is ok that you don't understand this, and so I welcome your questions. But you must understand the Christian view of this if you are to understand why it would not bother a Christian for Jesus to have doubts.

First, much of the New Testament (and we are only talking about the New Testament now, not the whole Bible) was written specifically for Christians, and not to convert non-Christians. It addressed issues they were dealing with in their faith. Thus it assumes a certain amount of belief is already present in the reader. We welcome non-Christians to read our book, just like you welcome people outside of Islam to read the Qur'an. But, both books are more fully understood by the faithful than those outside the faith.

Second, when one remembers that Jesus was not just God, but also human -- 100% human, 100% divine -- then one can see how it is that in his humanity Jesus had to deal with issues just as we do. He got hungry. He mourned the death of his friends Lazarus, even though he intentionally arrived late so that he could demonstrate the power of the resurrection. And as his own death was before him he knew it would be a real death. He prayed that if it were possible for this cup to be taken from him. I think it is easy to understand how simply the act of facing one's own death would be difficult enough to face.

Third, but for Jesus meant more than just his physical death. There was also to be a spiritual death that would be beyond our experience or comprehension. His death on the cross also meant the taking on of all the sins of the world. Here he was, the righteous, Almighty, and sinless creator of the universe taking all the sins of all humankind upon himself. I think the thought of that had to be overwhelming.


As to your question: "If there is room for God Himself to have doubts, what does that leave for us humans?" I don't know why you should find that offensive. It speaks of just how much God identifies with us, his creation, and how much we can identify with him. If there is room for God to have doubts, then it should not surprise us that we also have them from time to time. But remember, that what Jesus did on earth, though he was divine, he did as a human being, a human who depended on his unique relationship with the Father for power and strength to follow God's will fully. (Or as you would say, Jesus depended on God to walk the path of Islam -- I concur wholeheartedly with that.) And that same power by which Jesus was able to walk 100% in God's will is available to us all today, that is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So, we too, though merely human and not at all divine, may also walk the walk that Jesus walk and submit our lives fully to God's will.

I know you may struggle over this divine/human concept I speak of, but understanding it is essential to understand the answer to your question from a Christian perspective. The answers are found in other writings that I fear many of my Muslim brothers think are just further corruption of Jesus' message, but we do not. I will cite only one:

Philippians 2:5-8
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Christians understand these verses to refer to Jesus emptying himself of divine perogative in coming to earth. It even has a fancy name -- the Kenosis theory -- so that although he was indeed fully God, he lived life as a human being in every way.

Now, for a moment, put aside the fact that these verses and the Qur'an are diametrically in opposition to each other. One cannot reconcile the idea that one says that Jesus became obedient to death and the other that he did not die. At that point it is likely that one simply chooses one's preferred authority and the discussion is effectively closed. But, you were asking how it might be that Jesus could be both God and still have doubts, do you see that this emptying of himself (which Christians believe in and you probably would not) allows for exactly that?

[glo]

Second, when one remembers that Jesus was not just God, but also human -- 100% human, 100% divine -- then one can see how it is that in his humanity Jesus had to deal with issues just as we do. He got hungry. He mourned the death of his friends Lazarus, even though he intentionally arrived late so that he could demonstrate the power of the resurrection. And as his own death was before him he knew it would be a real death. He prayed that if it were possible for this cup to be taken from him. I think it is easy to understand how simply the act of facing one's own death would be difficult enough to face.

Third, but for Jesus meant more than just his physical death. There was also to be a spiritual death that would be beyond our experience or comprehension. His death on the cross also meant the taking on of all the sins of the world. Here he was, the righteous, Almighty, and sinless creator of the universe taking all the sins of all humankind upon himself. I think the thought of that had to be overwhelming.

Thank you for your post, Grace Seeker. I continue to be amazed at the clarify of your thoughts and explanations! :)

I just wanted to add that the above is the reason why I can relate to Jesus so well - not only did he humble himself to put away his divinity and become a humble human, he also experienced human life just like we all do:
He felt hunger and thirst, sadness and joy, love and anger, the need for fellowship and solitude, he even suffered temptation, humiliation , fear and physical pain.

Whatever we suffer in our earthly life, Jesus suffered it too!
That gives Christians a tremendous hope, and hopefully the strength to persevere.

Peace

[snakelegs]

Now, for a moment, put aside the fact that these verses and the Qur'an are diametrically in opposition to each other. One cannot reconcile the idea that one says that Jesus became obedient to death and the other that he did not die. At that point it is likely that one simply chooses one's preferred authority and the discussion is effectively closed.

wow - this was the clearest explanation i've read yet. i must admit that i do not really understand christianity, but i found your post very interesting.
the paragraph above i couldn't agree with more! there will never be agreement on this issue and at some point, christians and muslims are going to have to accept that, while still respecting each other. with matters of religion, there is no need (at least in my opinion) for one to be right and the other wrong. don't know if it's possible, but i think it's a reasonable goal.
in my opinion, in matters of religion, there is no need (at least in my opinion) for one to be right and the other wrong.
dialogue between christians and muslim is exceedingly challenging because both religions believe that they are The One True Religion and it easily deteriorates in to a contest - but i think it can be done if both sides recognize that they are not going to change each other, but they can still learn.
can this be done? i don't know.
i am neither christian or muslim, but i think there is good in both religions - and no doubt, other religions as well.
thanks. (and reps!)

[- Qatada -]

Muslims believe that Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them) will return to the world to slay the anti-christ, and he will approve of the fact that he is the servant of Allaah, and not God himself. The christians also believe that Jesus son of Mary will be in the eternal kingdom whereas we believe he will rule in this world at that time, but thats a totally different subject.


Anyway God does not have the traits of a human - i.e. He doesn't get thirsty, or need water to drink, or food to eat etc. Because if God is in need of these requirements, then He isn't actually God because He is dependant on something else, and this goes against the whole concept of God. The reason why God is God is because He is self-sufficient, and because he doesn't get harmed by the creation, nor does he become tempted by these worldly lusts and desires etc.


If any person was to reflect on that, they would realise that these are basic human characteristics (i.e. to eat, drink, have desire etc.) If God was to humiliate himself by the creation in this world, or to be abused by people in this world - then that totally goes against the idea of a Perfect God.


Jesus (peace be upon him) is a messenger of Allaah, and other messengers have also come with the same message - worship your Creator, Allaah Almighty alone. No soul will bear the burden of another, and every soul is responsible for its own actions. This has been the same message with all the prophets, even in the scriptures of Moses and Abraham (peace be upon them.)



Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.

[glo]

Greetings Fi-Sabilillah

If you have read Grace Seeker's explanation you will realise that Christians believe that Jesus only had these human traits during his human life on earth - because for that duration he was indeed fully human.

Now he has returned to his fully divine state, he does not feel hunger, thirst or any other physical desires anymore ...

It pains me to know that the thought of God reducing himself to human form is offensive to Muslims - but it is and remains to be the central belief of Christians.

Perhaps it is wisest to rest the debate there ...
As Grace Seeker so eloquently put it:

One cannot reconcile the idea that one says that Jesus became obedient to death and the other that he did not die. At that point it is likely that one simply chooses one's preferred authority and the discussion is effectively closed.

As did snakelegs:

but i think it can be done if both sides recognize that they are not going to change each other, but they can still learn.

Peace, brother :)

[Trumble]

If God was to humiliate himself by the creation in this world, or to be abused by people in this world - then that totally goes against the idea of a Perfect God.

In saying that you are judging God by human standards; something which if He is indeed perfect (let alone beyond our comprehension) it is totally inappropriate to do.

'Humiliation' is an ego concept; to be humiliated you require a sense of pride. Pride is something I assume a perfect being would not have... the moment God even concieved the concept of humiliation as applied to Himself he could no longer be perfect!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What we mean Glo is that God doesn't need to reduce Himself to human form to understand how we feel. He already knows what is good, bad, right, and wrong for us because He created us all. Which is why God has sent down for us scriptures and Messengers for each generation. I dont know why it pains you, but be assured you don't need to be. Another reason we don't believe it is because it would mean God was unable to set us straight, so He had to become human to convince us. God has given us His signs, His books, so that we may reflect on them. If you truly have faith in your religion, anothers belief will not pain you because you trust the path on which your on. Something you should realize. Well I hope that explains it a bit.

Peace :)

[- Qatada -]

Hi trumble.


I used the word 'humiliation' and 'fear' etc. because i was using the words that glo mentioned earlier. Therefore i can use those words in reference to the christian perspective due to the fact that glo described jesus (peace be upon him) that way.

Your second paragraph i think should be aimed at christians, not me. :)



Peace.

[glo]

I understand what Muslims believe, Tayyaba. :)
Only, my beliefs differ from yours.

There is not much left to debate about - just to accept that our beliefs differ, and to respect each other. :)



Peace

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I am quite aware of your belief, thanx :)

[Umar001]

I hate these types of thread, I totally dislike them, because you can never get the mix right,

For example, there are people you can be totally upfront with, and they see it as an academical study as such, then there are others who might be more emotional, im not saying either is wrong, I just think that these threads tend to on a whole only aim at one type of person, which then leads to the other type being upset or fastruated.

'Humiliation' is an ego concept; to be humiliated you require a sense of pride. Pride is something I assume a perfect being would not have... the moment God even concieved the concept of humiliation as applied to Himself he could no longer be perfect!

Actually there is a sense of pride which is good, so no, a perfect being would have pride, but the type of pride is what is different. A pride in which one puts himself out of his own place and so forth is wrong, but a pride of being who you are and being happy as such is not wrong, if you read the Bible you will see G-d as a Powerful, Proud Character, it is only because the most of the pride we see is the sinful type that most people assume all pride is wrong.

Akhi Fi_Sabilillah, the Idea that most people have of a perfect G-d is different for some. Although everyone tends to agree at the basis of it.

Some people cheris the tought that G-d loved them so much that he had to come, and be beaten up and then take all their wrongdoing and then die with it and then come back to life and then go to heaven and then return all his powers, some people see that as a great show of love and so on. It doesn't occour that G-d had to 'humiliate' himself and so on, and if you explain it to some, it makes them think '****, wow, my G-d humilated himself for me! So I could be saved! That is true love!"

[Woodrow]

This is one of those cases where there does not appear to be a mutualy acceptable source for verification of fact.

As a Muslim, I do not accept the Bible as being an authentic source of information. Trying to convince me with Biblical ohrases makes as much sense as trying to Teach me about religious beliefs and using a telephone book as the authoritative document.

Understandably, Christians will feel exactly the same about the Holy Qur'an. Unless a Christian can accept the Qur'an as being Devine truth, he will not accept it as proof. But, if a person accepts the Qur'an as Truth, he would be Muslim and this discussion would not be taking place.

I believe this topic has run it's course and as Glo already stated, We have different beliefs and the best we can do is to accept each others right to believe as we do.

I won't close this thread for a few hours, in the event somebody may have a final comment.

[Umar001]

I have one,


Final Comment


Oh..there you go ;)

[Trumble]

Actually there is a sense of pride which is good, so no, a perfect being would have pride, but the type of pride is what is different. A pride in which one puts himself out of his own place and so forth is wrong, but a pride of being who you are and being happy as such is not wrong, if you read the Bible you will see G-d as a Powerful, Proud Character, it is only because the most of the pride we see is the sinful type that most people assume all pride is wrong.

I disagree. There is only an element of pride if you percieve that what you are, or what you have done, is better than at least some possible alternatives. For example, you may be proud you are a successful family man with fine, successful children, or perhaps that you have completed a particularly difficult task that will benefit your community, both of which I assume you would consider "good" pride? In both cases it only makes sense compared to the alternatives; that, perhaps, you were a hopeless drug addict and criminal, or that you failed to complete the task, whatever it may have been. Whatever you take pride in must be better than something else.

That concept makes no sense in the context of a perfect being. By definition you both are perfect, and everything you do is perfect. There are no possible alternatives, and therefore no possible sources of pride, "good" or otherwise. How could God be proud in having done something perfectly if, by definition, He couldn't do it any other way? How can God take pride in being perfect if, by definition, He can't be anything else?

I wouldn't disagree with the idea that there are both "good" and "sinful" types of pride in this context (actually, as a Buddhist I think even "good" pride is undesirable, but that's a totally different argument). But neither could apply to a perfect being.

[Malaikah]

Third, but for Jesus meant more than just his physical death. There was also to be a spiritual death that would be beyond our experience or comprehension. His death on the cross also meant the taking on of all the sins of the world. Here he was, the righteous, Almighty, and sinless creator of the universe taking all the sins of all humankind upon himself. I think the thought of that had to be overwhelming.

I would have thought the sins of mankind- no matter what their magnitude, are nothing in comparision to the the creator of the whole universe! If He is truely Almightly then there is nothing that could be overwhelming for Him! He is God!!

If there is room for God to have doubts, then it should not surprise us that we also have them from time to time.

God by definition cannot have doubt- HE is the ALL-KNOWING. If there is room for God to have doubts- then its time to start doubting our understanding of God...

But remember, that what Jesus did on earth, though he was divine, he did as a human being, a human who depended on his unique relationship with the Father for power and strength to follow God's will fully.

So, what you are saying is that one-third of God choose to give up His "Godness" so He can become a human. :? So God has reduced a third of Himself to some kind of almost powerless being? And that its outside of His power to allow himself to re-gain His "Godly" powers, and yet He is still God? This sounds like a paradox to me...:?

(Or as you would say, Jesus depended on God to walk the path of Islam -- I concur wholeheartedly with that.)

Er yeh we would say that but keep in mind to us, Jesus (peace be upon him) was a human! All humans need God. But why does one redundant third of God need to rely on the more powerful other third of a God?

But, you were asking how it might be that Jesus could be both God and still have doubts, do you see that this emptying of himself (which Christians believe in and you probably would not) allows for exactly that?

I can see why you would believe that it would be 'normal' for this God of yours to have have doubts- but that is itself the problem, this strange understandng of the nature of God that you have. You believe Him to be the All-mighty and yet He can reduce Himself to the level of His creations. To me, that is nothing short of offensive and totally against the nature of God that He should reduce Him in such a manner.

[B]He felt hunger and thirst, sadness and joy, love and anger, the need for fellowship and solitude, he even suffered temptation, humiliation , fear and physical pain.

But He is God!:offended: Thats what prophets are for! God is not so low that He can suffer at the hands of His creations! He is perfect, He is above anything we can attribute to Him! How can we hurt Him? We just cant! He doesnt need us at all! We need Him!

That gives Christians a tremendous hope, and hopefully the strength to persevere.

Well look at this way. Jesus has a divine part to him (according to your belief), so it should have been easier for him to deal with everything the humans put him through. He is almighy and all else, and we humans are not, so it is easier for a 'god-human' to deal with the ups and downs of life than a normal human. So perhaps its not the best source of inspiration.

On the other hand, the prophets were 100% human. They suffered as any other human would suffer. They were not divine in anyway. And yet they managed to survive all that the evil humans of thier time put them through. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was not God. He never even meet God. And yet it was his faith in God that carried Him through all the hardship that he suffered. In comparision, Jesus not only meet 'God', He was God (or so you claim)!! So who is a better role model for us? The prophets, who went true sooo much as humans? Or this 'man-god' who made it through life because of his 'divinity'?

Take care.:)

[Grace Seeker]

Cheese, you have shown me great respect by the way you engaged and questioned my thoughts. Thank-you. I am humbled by it.

Many of your questions are very insightful. They come to the heart of the Christian faith and thus some of the differences that exist between us. I do not know if I can address them all, certainly not to everyone's satisfaction, but if you will allow, I will try.

As I do, please know that I do not do so to convince anyone to change his/her beliefs, but simply to increase the level of understanding the exists between us.

I would have thought the sins of mankind- no matter what their magnitude, are nothing in comparision to the the creator of the whole universe! If He is truely Almightly then there is nothing that could be overwhelming for Him! He is God!!

Here I need your help for a minute. It is my understanding of Islamic thought, that not only is Allah (swt) Almighty, but Allah (swt) is also sinless. What I am not sure of is the degree to which Allah (swt) can be associated with that which is sinful. Can a sinful person join Allah (swt) in Paradise? My understand is that one must be cleansed of the sins we have committed in this life before one can be admitted to Paradise. (Please correct me on this if I am wrong.) If this is true, one might ask the same question then of Islam that you have asked of Christianity. If All is truly Almighty, then there is nothing that would necessitate the ridding one's self of sin before being admitted to Paradise -- except of course the very nature of Allah (swt) and Paradise being that they are exclusive of sin. As far as it goes, this is identical to Christian beliefs. The difference is that in Christianity we also have God exposing himself to the sins of the world. Yes, God is big enough to take all sins of any magnitude upon himself and they would not overwhelm him (perhaps I mis-spoke in using that term). Yet sin is something that is foreign to God. In the Christian understanding, sin brings with it the curse of death, spiritual death. Jesus (pbuh) who never knew anything but a holy, righteous and sinless life, would be exposing himself to sin and its curse when he went to the cross. Christians see this ultimately in Jesus (pbuh) cry from the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." You mentioned that there was a paradox in Christians beliefs; I think there in fact many. And here is one, how could God cry out to God that he was forsaken by God. I don't have a definitive answer for you. But remember what I talked about in the Kenosis theory, namely that Jesus (pbuh) experienced life just like every other human being (only he was sinless). The miracles he did, he did not on his own authority, but by the authority of (in his own words) his Father in heaven. He had the experience of the divine Holy Spirit living within him, and perhaps it is that on the cross, when all of the sins of the world came upon him, perhaps at that point in time God abandoned Jesus to spiritual death and felt the loss of that divine connection of the Holy Spirit living within him and this prompted him to cry out. As I said, I don't have a definitive answer to that question, and just submit that as a supposition.

God by definition cannot have doubt- HE is the ALL-KNOWING. If there is room for God to have doubts- then its time to start doubting our understanding of God...

Again, remember according to the Kenosis theory (which I don't expect you to accept for your understanding of either God nor Jesus (pbuh), but which Christians do and so I have to answer from that perspective when you ask questions relative to what Christians believe) Jesus (pbuh) would have experienced every human emotion, including doubts. Jesus (pbuh), in his human experience of life, was NOT personally All-Knowing. What he knew, would have been only that which the Father would have revealed to him.

So, what you are saying is that one-third of God choose to give up His "Godness" so He can become a human. :? So God has reduced a third of Himself to some kind of almost powerless being? And that its outside of His power to allow himself to re-gain His "Godly" powers, and yet He is still God? This sounds like a paradox to me...:?

Well, yes and no. First, Christians would not see Jesus (pbuh) as one-third of God. God is one. God is not a pie that one divides up. But we are saying God does humble himself to the state of a human being. And yes, he still is God. Is it a paradox? Yes, and a mystery too.

Er yeh we would say that but keep in mind to us, Jesus (peace be upon him) was a human! All humans need God. But why does one redundant third of God need to rely on the more powerful other third of a God?

You've almost got what Christians are saying. Jesus (pbuh) was human. And all humans need God. But we would not characterize Jesus (pbuh) as either one-third of God nor as a redundancy. You have 99 names for Allah (swt) (I have actually counted more), but there is no redundancy there because each is a true expression of the nature, character, attributes of Allah (swt). Christians see each manifestation of God to be a true manifestation, and not redundant. Indeed you might even think of God the Father as the Everlasting, the Provider, the Self-Sufficient, the Source of All Goodness; God the Son as the Light, the Propitous, the First, the Last; and God the Holy Spirit as the Guide, the Sustainer, the Witness. All of these are of course true for all of aspects of God, but we humans experience their manifestation in ways that vary depending on whether we are presently encountering God manifest in the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. During Jesus' (pbuh) time on earth, each of them was still true of him and his character, but the manifestation of God's power was through the Father.

(I apologize for my poor explanation of this. But I can't explain covalent bonding very well either, and still except it to be true.)

I can see why you would believe that it would be 'normal' for this God of yours to have have doubts- but that is itself the problem, this strange understandng of the nature of God that you have. You believe Him to be the All-mighty and yet He can reduce Himself to the level of His creations. To me, that is nothing short of offensive and totally against the nature of God that He should reduce Him in such a manner.

But He is God!:offended: Thats what prophets are for! God is not so low that He can suffer at the hands of His creations! He is perfect, He is above anything we can attribute to Him! How can we hurt Him? We just cant! He doesnt need us at all! We need Him!

And I can understand why you might find that offensive. Can you see why I (coming from a different place) might find it to be wonderful?

What love God has for us, that though he does not need us, as an expression of this great love he "reduces" (your word, not mine) himself to the level of his creation in order to relate to us. And not just relate, for as you point out a prophet could give instructions. Jesus (pbuh) is about more than just providing a message from God. Jesus (pbuh) is about God actually connecting with us, his creation.

Well look at this way. Jesus has a divine part to him (according to your belief), so it should have been easier for him to deal with everything the humans put him through. He is almighy and all else, and we humans are not, so it is easier for a 'god-human' to deal with the ups and downs of life than a normal human. So perhaps its not the best source of inspiration.

On the other hand, the prophets were 100% human. They suffered as any other human would suffer. They were not divine in anyway. And yet they managed to survive all that the evil humans of thier time put them through. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was not God. He never even meet God. And yet it was his faith in God that carried Him through all the hardship that he suffered. In comparision, Jesus not only meet 'God', He was God (or so you claim)!! So who is a better role model for us? The prophets, who went true sooo much as humans? Or this 'man-god' who made it through life because of his 'divinity'?

Several things here. First Jesus (pbuh) is not a man/god. Jesus (pbuh) is both 100% man and 100% God, but he is not a hybrid. You would be right if we viewed Jesus (pbuh) as some sort of hybrid for everything to have been easier for him. Like some sort of amphibious divine/human being he could call on whatever part he needed at the time. But that is NOT who Jesus (pbuh) is.

Second, with Islam we believe that God did in fact send many prophets to show us the way to God. But even with these prophets people have strayed, and continue to stay from God. In essence, the prophets were successful only in pointing out how imperfect we are in following the way of Islam. Is it the belief of Islam that there was ever anyone who was 100% a true follower of Islam over the entire course of one's life? (Again corret me if I am wrong...) I don't even think that it is claimed that the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) lived totally a sinless life, even though he did live a life of Islam, in submission to Allah (swt). Thus it is that Christianity thinks we need more than a prophet, more even than an example, we need a redeemer. Now humans can't redeem other humans from their sins, we can't even redeem ourselves -- Christians hold that that which is imperfect cannot become perfect under its own power. Christians believe we need something greater than ourselves to redeem us for God, and only Allah Al-Mughni, The Enricher, The One who satisfies the necessities of the creatures, is capable of doing that. I understand that to you it seems offensive, and I do not say this to offend, but only to help in our understanding of each other's beliefs. We have an unmet need. No perfect book, no perfect message, no perfect model can satisfy that need. And no one can satisfy it for himself or herself, and if that is all there is then we are lost. However, Christians believe that is not all there is. Christians believe that God created another way, that way is the connection God establishes with all of humankind through the person of Jesus (pbuh). What we could not do for ourselves, Jesus (pbuh) stands in for us to do. Like a scapegoat, He takes our sins upon himself and dies in our place. I think that this idea of anyone dying in another's place probably sounds like heresey to both Muslims and Jews, but again I am not trying to convince anyone, just to explain why the concept of the crucifixion is so important within Christianity. There is a cost to sin and that is spiritual death. But in Christ's self-giving sacrifice in our place; our sins are "paid for"; we are redeemed from sin, and we can be joined (in God's eyes without sin) to God in fellowship again.

Christians have a big fancy term for this too -- justification. It basically means that we are made right with God. I like the way it was explained on another thread on these boards. In explaining Islam, a writer wrote that in Islam atonement was God being at one with men. Such a statement sounds like it could have been taken from one of my books on Christian theology. Where I think Christians and Muslims differ is that Christians believe that only by Christ's redeeming work on the cross can that atonement be made, but once it is done it puts us right with God. From that point on, depending no longer on our own power, but on God's Holy Spirit bringing divine power into our lives we are called and now enabled to live lives in submission to the will of God. All of that is possible only because of the cross.



Again, Cheese, thank-you for providing me an opportunity to address these questions. I know that it is hard to understand someone else's faith. You asked good questions. Even those raised within a faith often find themselves not understanding it fully and getting confused (the idea of Jesus as a hybrid god/man thing often comes up), so it is good that you care to ask. I just wish I knew how to give shorter answers. :(

May, peace be upon you, also.

[islamicfajr]

As a Muslim, I do not accept the Bible as being an authentic source of information.
.

ur right..the Gospel that was revealed from the Lord of the Worlds to the Prophet of Allaah ‘Eesa (peace be upon him). Belief that Allaah revealed a Book to His Prophet ‘Eesa and that the name of this book was the Gospel (Injeel), are basic principles of faith that we must believe in.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ‘We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers’ — and they say, ‘We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:285]

The Prophet

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Jibreel, when he asked him about faith, as mentioned in the well-known hadeeth: “Faith means to believe in Allaah, His angels, His books, His messengers, the Last Day, and to believe in His divine will and decree, both good and bad.” (Agreed upon).

Disbelieving in that or doubting it is misguidance and kufr or disbelief in Allaah.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Believe in Allaah, and His Messenger (Muhammad), and the Book (the Qur’aan) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him); and whosoever disbelieves in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.

137. Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe (again), and (again) disbelieve, and go on increasing in disbelief; Allaah will not forgive them, nor guide them on the (right) way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:136-137]

“Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, “We believe in some but reject others,” and wish to adopt a way in between.

151. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment”

[al-Nisa’ 4:150-151]

The second issue is the Gospel or, more precisely, the Gospels that the Christians have today. Although one of the basic principles of our faith is to believe in the Gospel that was revealed to ‘Eesa, we also believe that there is no longer any book that remained as it was revealed by Allaah, neither the Gospel nor anything else, apart from the Qur’aan. Even the Christians themselves do not believe that the books that they have before them were revealed in that form from God, nor do they claim that the Messiah wrote the Gospel or at least that it was written during his lifetime.
Imam Ibn Hazm (may Allaah have mercy on him) says in al-Fasl fi’l-Milal (2/2):

We do not need to try hard to prove that the Gospels and all the books of the Christians did not come from God or from the Messiah (peace be upon him), as we needed to do with regard to the Torah and the books attributed to the Prophets that the Jews have, because the Jews claim that the Torah that they have was revealed from God to Moosa, so we needed to establish proof that this claim of theirs is false. With regard to the Christians, they have taken care of the issue themselves, because they do not believe that the Gospels were revealed from God to the Messiah, or that the Messiah brought them, rather all of them from first to last, peasants and kings, Nestorians, Jacobites, Maronites and Orthodox are all agreed that there are four historical accounts written by four known men at different times. The first of them is the account written by Matthew the Levite who was a disciple of the Messiah, nine years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Hebrew in Judaea in Palestine, and it filled approximately twenty-eight pages in a medium-sized script. The next account was written by Mark, a disciple of Simon ben Yuna, who was called Peter, twenty-two years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Greek in Antioch in the land of the Byzantines. They say that the Simon mentioned is the one who wrote it, then he erased his name from the beginning of it and attributed it to his disciple Mark. It filled twenty-four pages written in a medium-sized script. This Simon was a disciple of the Messiah. The third account written was that of Luke, a physician of Antioch who was also a disciple of Simon Peter. He wrote it in Greek after Mark had written his account, and is similar in length to the Gospel of Matthew. The fourth account was written by John the son of Zebedee, another disciple of the Messiah, sixty-odd years after the Messiah has been taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Greek, and it filled twenty-four pages in a medium-sized script. End quote.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Jawaab al-Saheeh (3:21):

With regard to the Gospels that the Christians have, there are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are agreed that Luke and Mark did not see the Messiah, rather he was seen by Matthew and John. These four accounts which they call the Gospel, and they call each one of them a Gospel, were written by these men after the Messiah had been taken up into heaven. They did not say that they are the word of God or that the Messiah conveyed them from God, rather they narrated some of the words of the Messiah and some of his deeds and miracles. End quote.

Moreover, these books which were written after the time of the Messiah did not remain in their original form. The original versions were lost long ago. Ibn Hazm said:

With regard to the Christians, there is no dispute among them or anyone else that only one hundred and twenty men believed in the Messiah during his lifetime… and all of those who believed in him concealed themselves and were afraid during his lifetime and afterwards; they called people to his religion in secret and none of them disclosed himself or practised his religion openly, because any of them who was caught was executed.

They continued in this manner, not showing themselves at all, and they had no place where they were safe for three hundred years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven.

During this time, the Gospel that had been revealed from Allaah disappeared, apart from a few verses which Allaah preserved as proof against them and as a rebuke to them, as we have mentioned. Then when the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, then the Christians prevailed and started to practise their religion openly and assemble in safety.

If a religion is like this, with its followers practicing it in secret and living in constant fear of the sword, it is impossible for things to be transmitted soundly via a continuous chain of narrators and its followers cannot protect it or prevent it from being distorted.

End quote. Al-Fasl, 2/4-5.

In addition to this huge disruption in the chain of transmission of their books, which lasted for two centuries, these books did not remain in the languages in which they were originally written, rather they were translated, more than once, by people whose level of knowledge and honesty is unknown. The contradictions in these books and their shortcomings are among the strongest evidence that they have been distorted and that they are not the Gospel (Injeel) that Allaah revealed to His slave and Messenger ‘Eesa (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”

[al-Nisa’ 4:82].

=============================

I won't close this thread for a few hours, in the event somebody may have a final comment

u wellcome Brother to close it..

and i think i put my final comment Here..

http://www.islamicboard.com/564519-post14.html

................
May Allah Direct All us to the right path..Ameen..

and Reward All us paradise and All us meet there..

peace,

islamicfajr

[Eric H]

Greetings in peace islamicfajr;

If you are to spend any time reading Holy Books of another faith you might gain far more by searching for a greatest good within that book.

Your time might be more fruitful if you spent it studying Islam and striving to give others a greater impression of Islam. Sadly when I read your posts they turn me away from Islam.

In the spirit of striving for a greater understanding of praying to one God.

Eric

[YusufNoor]

I believe Joe is refering to the fact that if G-d is all knowing, why did he not forsee all of this happening? A statement, which no one has produced an answer for, and I am curious to see what people may say. My belief, is that everyone was a false prophet and the Torah is sill true, but I respect your beliefs and look foward to your comments on Joe's post.

Shalom Izak,

erm, you must be excluding Moses from the list of false prophets???

and if so, then what about Abraham, Issac, Jacob & Noah???

and if there were four, could there be more???

peace,

Yusuf

[Malaikah]

Cheese, you have shown me great respect by the way you engaged and questioned my thoughts. Thank-you. I am humbled by it.

Hi there.

Wow thats good to hear. People tend to find my direct approach offensive so I was a little worried, but its good to hear you thought I was resfectful!

I've been busy so I might not be able to reply proplery to your post for a day or so.

Take care.

:)

[islamicfajr]

If you are to spend any time reading Holy Books of another faith you might gain far more by searching for a greatest good within that book.

hi Eric ..look..as A Mulsim i didn't need to Read..the Books which u alter words from their places .....

Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and Unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little. (4:46)

But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). (5:13)

..........

subhan Allah..which Holy Books u took about it..

75] Can ye (O ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you? Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.

[76] Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say: "We believe": but when they meet each other in private, they say: "Shall you tell them what Allah hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?" Do ye not understand (their aim)?

[77] Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?

[78] And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

[79] Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah," to traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

(2:75-79)
....................
any Way.....
...................

Shall I then seek a judge other than Allah? And He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) made plain; and those whom We have given the Book know that it is revealed by your Lord with truth, therefore you should not be of the disputers. (6:114)....

......................

finally Keep in ur mind that..

Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning. (3:19)

And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.(3:85)

............

peace,

islamicfajr

[Grace Seeker]

hi Eric ..look..as A Mulsim i didn't need to Read..the Books which u alter words from their places .....

I would agree with you....as far as this goes. As a Muslim you have no need to read the sacred scriptures of any other religion. They are basically without meaning to you, at least as far as understanding your own faith goes. One cannot explain Islam by reading the Bible. Just as one cannot understand Zorastrianism by reading the writings of Buddha.

But if one was a Hindu and sought to understand Islam, I would encourage that person to read the Qur'an, to study the life of the prophet, and to try to find out what Muslims actually thought, not what other Hindus thought regarding Islam. I am not a Muslim, but even I understand that.

I am a Christian. I am here not so much because I value the teaching of the Qur'an and Islamic beliefs, but because I value understanding them. (How can I value them until I understand them?) And so, I go not to other Christians to comment on their understanding of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), and the Qur'an, but I go to those who know and practice the faith of Islam.

In coming here, I have been glad to see that there are those within Islam who have this same view toward Christianity. They may not believe the teachings of Christianity. They may believe that the Bible that Christians use today is a corrupted message. They may believe that originally the teaching of Isa was the same message of Islam that Allah (swt) had Isa deliver to the Jews and that Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to deliver to all human kind. I get that. But they also understand that merely dogmatically declaring their own Islamic beliefs will not help them to understand the actual faith of Christians. And for some reason, there do appear to be those Muslim brothers and sisters who desire to understand not just what Islam teaches about Christianity, but what Christians understand about themselves. Whether they desire this understanding so that by more fully understanding Christian thought they can refute it in the proclamtion of what they understand to be the true message God wants shared, the message of Islam; or whther they desire this simply to develop better interrelgious understanding as a means to bring about more harmony among different people in this world is not important to me. I simply praise God that people of differing faiths desire to understand one another, for whatever reason.

But I do second what Eric has said, if you desire to communicate with Christians, you will do better to understand how it is that we perceive ourselves than to merely tell us how wrong we are. You will get a better hearing.

[islamicfajr]

Grace seeker...about ur Name nice one..All us Forgiveness of All our sin..

Subhan Allah..when u reverted to islam = Forgiveness for All Previous Sins

Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). (8:38)

............................
...islam's Ummah..
............................

Thus have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves ...(2:143)

Ye are the best of Peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had Faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have Faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

If any do seek for glory and power, to Allah belong all glory and power. To Him mount up (all) words of Purity: it is He Who exalts each Deed of Righteousness. Those that lay Plots of Evil, for them is a Penalty terrible; and the plotting of such will be void (of result). (35:10)

Yea, to those who take for friends Unbelievers rather than Believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay all honour is with Allah. (4:139)

...But honour belongs to Allah and His Messenger, and to the Believers..(63:8)

I am here not so much because I value the teaching of the Qur'an and Islamic beliefs, but because I value understanding them. (How can I value them until I understand them?) And so, I go not to other Christians to comment on their understanding of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), and the Qur'an, but I go to those who know and practice the faith of Islam.

If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. (9:6)


Masha` Allah..then u should change ur Name to Turth Seeker..

....some day i wanna call u my Brother in islam..

May Allah Direct u to the right path ..Ameen..

peace,

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you islamicfajr;

When I talk with people of other faiths, I search for what is best in their faith to see what inspires them, many times I have been surprised. I can remember talking about Buddhism with a Buddhist, and his understanding helped me to perceive Christ in a greater way.

I read posts about how Muslims perceive love and prayer, and their explanation has helped me to understand love and prayer through Christianity in a greater way.

When I search for what is best in others it helps to brake down the barriers that exist between me and people of other diverse faiths. I am still a Christian and I cannot see that changing; to me it seems the greater path. But I still have this desire to seek interfaith tolerance and friendships despite all our differences.

But when I hear people of one faith challenging my faith or other people's faith it does seem to turn me away.

God is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world put together, all our prayers are heard by the same God.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

[Grace Seeker]

Islamicfajrr,

Above, Woodrow very truly said:

As a Muslim, I do not accept the Bible as being an authentic source of information. Trying to convince me with Biblical ohrases makes as much sense as trying to Teach me about religious beliefs and using a telephone book as the authoritative document.

I believe I understood exactly what he meant by that. It is a very true statement. For a Muslim, it is the Qur'an, and not the Bible, which is authoritative.

But there is a corallary to it that I would ask you to consider as also being true.

As a non-Muslim, I do not accept the Qur'an as being an authentic source of information. Trying to convince me with phrases from it makes as much sense as me trying to teach you by using the Bible as an authoritative document. The Bible is authoritative only is so far as saying this is what I believe, not for me saying to you what you should believe. And the Qur'an, though viewed as authoritative by you, is not going to be authoritative to me. It helps me to understand where you are coming from, but it does nothing to change how I am going to perceive truth.

If you want to speak to me, you must do more than merely quote the Qur'an -- I have my own copy that I have already read -- you must open also your own life to me and show me how the Qur'an has helped you to live a life of Islam. For like you, I, too, am seeking to live my life in submission to the will of God.

You see, I am not an unbeliever. Indeed I am very much a believer and a follower of the one God who revealed God's self to us in and through the life and ministry of the one you know as the prophet Jesus (pbuh).

Just as you quoted: If only the People of the Book had Faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have Faith(3:110) Until you converse with me, rather than merely talk at me, I doubt if you will know me well enough to determine what type of faith I might have.

And I am sorry to say this, but you actually lose some credibility with me, when you use a verse such as the following in the way you have: Yea, to those who take for friends Unbelievers rather than Believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay all honour is with Allah.(4:139) I know enough about Islam to know that this is NOT in reference to prohibit being "friends" with non-Muslims with the connotation that the word "friend" has in English. I know that such a choice of words is a poor translation of the original Arabic. The word there is "auliya" which is often mistranslated to mean friends when it does not. The idea is NOT that one should have no non-Muslim friends, but that one should not be prefering non-Muslims to Muslims (or especially seeking them in place of Muslims) in one's relationships. Further it actually doesn't have as much to do witih friendships as with business relationships. It thus (at least to me, perhaps not to you) seems totally misapplied here, for how can one bear witness to Allah among non-Muslims if one has no non-Muslim friends? Again, I assert to you, that being friends requires a back and forth sharing and exchange of ideas. A one-sided promulgation of dogma does not a friendship make.

By the way, I do not think that I am a man without knowledge. Indeed, first I am seeking the way of Islam, in that I am seeking to live life in 100% conformity to the will of God, seeking not my own honor nor glory, but God's. And I seek to do so by living a righteous life in submission to God's will, not mine. Further, I have found words that I believe God has provided to help me in this path:

"Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves."
"Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited."
"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."

You will not find these exact words in the Qur'an, but I dare say that their message and the message of the Qur'an are much the same. Perhaps it is not divine revelation, not on par with how you would view the Qur'an, but that does not mean that God's truth cannot also be found in the wisdom of others such as the posts of Ansar Al-'Adl, Woodrow, or your own. And so too, I have found words that have helped me to live a life in submission to God in these words:

"Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."

They were written by a man named Paul. I don't expect them to necessarily guide you, but they have guided me and helped me to submit myself to
God in my life. I would hope you could respect, even if not honor, that.

[Skillganon]

What if your forefathers have been devoid of knowledge and had no guidance?

[Grace Seeker]

What if your forefathers have been devoid of knowledge and had no guidance?

First, I am fortunate that such is not the case.

Second, just as was the case for all the prophets, God can still speak to us. While I do not claim to have received divine revelation in the sense of receiving a message like the prophets did, I do believe that God does still speak to us to help us discern truth from error. Thus, we are never without guidance, for God himself guides us into all truth.

Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). (42:13)

Thus I see no reason to fear that I do not have the guidance that I need. For if Allah has chosen me, I have nothing to be worried about. And if Allah has not choosen me for Himself, all my strivings would not change a thing which has already been decided by the will of Allah. I live by the knowledge of himself God has been pleased to give to me, and seek to live for him as best as I can by that guidance. Insallah.

[Skillganon]

First, I am fortunate that such is not the case.

Second, just as was the case for all the prophets, God can still speak to us. While I do not claim to have received divine revelation in the sense of receiving a message like the prophets did, I do believe that God does still speak to us to help us discern truth from error. Thus, we are never without guidance, for God himself guides us into all truth.

Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him). (42:13)

Thus I see no reason to fear that I do not have the guidance that I need. For if Allah has chosen me, I have nothing to be worried about. And if Allah has not choosen me for Himself, all my strivings would not change a thing which has already been decided by the will of Allah. I live by the knowledge of himself God has been pleased to give to me, and seek to live for him as best as I can by that guidance. Insallah.

Yusuf Ali Translation.

43:20. ("Ah!") they say, "If it had been the will of ((Allah)) Most Gracious, we should not have worshipped such (deities)!" Of that they have no knowledge! they do nothing but lie!

[Grace Seeker]

Yusuf Ali Translation.

43:20. ("Ah!") they say, "If it had been the will of ((Allah)) Most Gracious, we should not have worshipped such (deities)!" Of that they have no knowledge! they do nothing but lie!

I'm not sure which it is: Are you objecting to my use of the Qur'an? Or are you simply calling me a liar? In either case I would have thought better of you than that.

From Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah:
This idea here should be understood, and the verse from the Quran that we should take as the overriding verse in our relationship with this people [i.e. Non-muslims] is where Allah subhaana wa ta'aala says concerning those who neither fight you because of your religion nor remove you from your homes that He does not prohibit you from showing them birr: righteousness.

Allah, subhaana wa ta'aala, for that reason says, "Call to your Lord with wisdom and with a beautiful admonition, and dispute them in the most excellent of ways." In other words, debate with them and dialogue with them in the most beautiful of ways. Don't be argumentative; don't be cruel; don't be mean; don't humiliate them. Do it ways in which they can listen to the truth, respect the truth, and come to the truth. For this reason, we have to be du'ahtis salaam: people who are callers to peace.

I beg your pardon if I have misunderstood the meaning of your post. If I have, could you please clarify, for I seek to understand as much as I seek to be understood.

[Skillganon]

I'm not sure which it is: Are you objecting to my use of the Qur'an? Or are you simply calling me a liar? In either case I would have thought better of you than that.

From Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah:
This idea here should be understood, and the verse from the Quran that we should take as the overriding verse in our relationship with this people [i.e. Non-muslims] is where Allah subhaana wa ta'aala says concerning those who neither fight you because of your religion nor remove you from your homes that He does not prohibit you from showing them birr: righteousness.

Allah, subhaana wa ta'aala, for that reason says, "Call to your Lord with wisdom and with a beautiful admonition, and dispute them in the most excellent of ways." In other words, debate with them and dialogue with them in the most beautiful of ways. Don't be argumentative; don't be cruel; don't be mean; don't humiliate them. Do it ways in which they can listen to the truth, respect the truth, and come to the truth. For this reason, we have to be du'ahtis salaam: people who are callers to peace.

I beg your pardon if I have misunderstood the meaning of your post. If I have, could you please clarify, for I seek to understand as much as I seek to be understood.

Thank you for your post.

If you read the post, their is little room for Judgment.

Wheter I am calling you a Liar ot not is a moot question.

Thank's

Skill

[Grace Seeker]

Thank you for your post.

If you read the post, their is little room for Judgment.

Wheter I am calling you a Liar ot not is a moot question.

Thank's

Skill

I did read the post. Sometimes I find the words of the Qur'an a little cryptic. So, if you wouldn't mind, could you expand upon your thoughts with a little bit of commentary as to the application you wish for me to understand from it? Thank-you for this kindness.

[Skillganon]

Hello Pastor:

Simple you posted this:

"Thus I see no reason to fear that I do not have the guidance that I need. For if Allah has chosen me, I have nothing to be worried about. And if Allah has not choosen me for Himself, all my strivings would not change a thing which has already been decided by the will of Allah. I live by the knowledge of himself God has been pleased to give to me, and seek to live for him as best as I can by that guidance. Insallah."#


and I posted this:

43:20. ("Ah!") they say, "If it had been the will of ((Allah)) Most Gracious, we should not have worshipped such (deities)!" Of that they have no knowledge! they do nothing but lie!

Thank's Skill.

[Grace Seeker]

Ah, now I think I get you. You are alluding to a belief that even in his sovreignity, that Allah elects not to force a person to worship Allah as the one true God, but invites. Thus if one chooses to worship some other diety than Allah, it is the individual not Allah who is responsibile for that choice.

If this is what you are saying, it seems perfectly reasonable, and I guess I will be held accountable then for that choice which I have made. Thank-you for clarifying.

Peace.

[Malaikah]

Here I need your help for a minute. It is my understanding of Islamic thought, that not only is Allah (swt) Almighty, but Allah (swt) is also sinless. What I am not sure of is the degree to which Allah (swt) can be associated with that which is sinful. Can a sinful person join Allah (swt) in Paradise? My understand is that one must be cleansed of the sins we have committed in this life before one can be admitted to Paradise. (Please correct me on this if I am wrong.)

Yes, that is correct.

If All is truly Almighty, then there is nothing that would necessitate the ridding one's self of sin before being admitted to Paradise -- except of course the very nature of Allah (swt) and Paradise being that they are exclusive of sin.

Well, Allah is just. It would not be fair to allow a sinful person into paradise without being cleansed because they do not deserve it as much as those who sinned less. We cant say that it is outside of God's power to admit the sinful into paradise, however it is simply something that Allah does not intend to do (as far as what Islam teachs us anyway).

Yet sin is something that is foreign to God.

hmm.. sin is something that can not be attributed to God. It is something that can only apply to the creations, not the Creator. I assume you understand that though?

In the Christian understanding, sin brings with it the curse of death, spiritual death. Jesus (pbuh) who never knew anything but a holy, righteous and sinless life, would be exposing himself to sin and its curse when he went to the cross.

hmmm... :-\ So isnt that like saying if anything were to ever destroy God, it would be sin. :? I must be missing something here.

Christians see this ultimately in Jesus (pbuh) cry from the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." You mentioned that there was a paradox in Christians beliefs; I think there in fact many. And here is one, how could God cry out to God that he was forsaken by God. I don't have a definitive answer for you.

Very true lol. Massive, confusing paradox.

Again, remember according to the Kenosis theory (which I don't expect you to accept for your understanding of either God nor Jesus (pbuh), but which Christians do and so I have to answer from that perspective when you ask questions relative to what Christians believe) Jesus (pbuh) would have experienced every human emotion, including doubts. Jesus (pbuh), in his human experience of life, was NOT personally All-Knowing. What he knew, would have been only that which the Father would have revealed to him.

So, what everything comes down to, is this Kenosis theory. It would seem that if a person accepted this theory then everything else comes naturally. Therefore, I think it would be useless to discuss anythign other than this theory.

From what I have understood so far, God is one but is composed of three: the father, the son and the spirit. Now, christian belief is that God, in the form of the son, came down to earth as Jesus and had to be offered as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind because there is no sacrifice big enough to do the job, other than God. While in this form- Jesus was human though still divine, and therefore acted as anyother human would too.

Now here is what bothers me. If God is everything that we believe him to be- the all-knowing, the all-seeing, the all-hearing, the wise, the patient, the almighty, can he possible go from being perfect to being imperfect? A human?

Being Almighty means to have unlimited power, right? It represents an ability. God can do anything. This is where yet another paradox comes up- if God can do anything, surely it is within his power to 'transform' himself to a state (i.e. human), in which he is no longer the almighty? He can do anything, so therefore He can make Himself human. But then, once He is human, He no longer exhibits those characteristics that are exclusive to God- i.e. all knowing, almighty, etc.

The solution to this paradox is that when when we say God is almighty, we are refering to an ability. But then to say that since He is almighty, it must be within His power to become human and 'give up' some of his awesome traits for an amount of time, during which he is no longer almighty and is falable as any other human is- this is not refering to an ability an longer, it is refering to both and ability AND disability.

To break it down: the 'ability' aspect comes in when one considers whether God can do something or not. So to ask 'Can God do so and so?' is refering to an ability. But when that so and so is actually itself an inability, the question breaks down into something meaningless because it goes against the very nature of God. The inability in this case is the idea that God can be a human.

To reinforce what I mean by the above, consider this example: "If God can do anything, can He create a rock so heavy which He Himself can not carry?"

Again, this line of thinking is based on the idea of ability/inability. The ability is in the part of the question that says 'can God...', and the inability is in the idea of the rock. Such a rock cannot even exist in the first place (not to mention that he only thing that makes the rock heavy is gravity and that God is not bound by gravity in the first place lol).

Okay... i hope that made sense. The point of all that was (incase you missed it lol) was: Can the almighty really 'transform' into a being that is not almighty? (No, of course He cant)

(I apologize for my poor explanation of this. But I can't explain covalent bonding very well either, and still except it to be true.)

Right, but once a better model comes around to explain covalent bonding, that theory would be put aside, just like if there is a religion with a better understanding of the nature of God, then all other religions must also be put aside in favour of the one that makes the most sense. ;) Afterall, the number one most important and central aspect of a religion is the understanding of God.

And I can understand why you might find that offensive. Can you see why I (coming from a different place) might find it to be wonderful?

Perhaps, but only if one takes a shallow look. Anything that could possibly be wonderful about it is over shadowed by the horror of it all (at least for me anyway, no offense intended.:thankyou: )

Several things here. First Jesus (pbuh) is not a man/god. Jesus (pbuh) is both 100% man and 100% God, but he is not a hybrid. You would be right if we viewed Jesus (pbuh) as some sort of hybrid for everything to have been easier for him. Like some sort of amphibious divine/human being he could call on whatever part he needed at the time. But that is NOT who Jesus (pbuh) is.

Is this the paradox coming out again? How can Jesus be 100% human, which means that he is imperfect, sinful, lacking in absolute knowledge and understand, and at the same time is 100% God, meaning that he would be perfect, sinless (as sin is a comcept that by definition can not be attributed to God), all-knowing and full of understanding? :uuh:

But even with these prophets people have strayed, and continue to stay from God.

That might be true for version of stories of the prophets that christians believe in (as far as I know, in biblical versions, your prophets committed adultey, got drunk... :uuh:). That is in NO WAY true for the Islamic version of events.

In essence, the prophets were successful only in pointing out how imperfect we are in following the way of Islam. Is it the belief of Islam that there was ever anyone who was 100% a true follower of Islam over the entire course of one's life? (Again corret me if I am wrong...) I don't even think that it is claimed that the Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) lived totally a sinless life, even though he did live a life of Islam, in submission to Allah (swt).

Yes... the prophets were all perfect when it came to the belief in the oneness of God. They never made a mistake when it came to the religion, i.e. revelation and stuff like that, things that were directly linked to prophethood. They only made mistakes regarding their worldly lives, and then if it was a noteworthy mistake they would be corrected by Allah swt, (and also it was never major sins!! only minor ones.)

So yes, they are perfect examples for us. And the fact that they made mistakes is very important because we as humans make mistakes also and we need to have someone to look-up to as a role-model to teach us what to do once we make mistakes.

From what I understand, Jesus didnt make mistakes (as he was God)? How then can we relate to him?

Thus it is that Christianity thinks we need more than a prophet, more even than an example, we need a redeemer.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a redeemer? Can you please explain?

Now humans can't redeem other humans from their sins, we can't even redeem ourselves -- Christians hold that that which is imperfect cannot become perfect under its own power.

And yet you have no problem believing the reverse- that God, who is perfect, can become imperfect under his own powers? :confused:

Where I think Christians and Muslims differ is that Christians believe that only by Christ's redeeming work on the cross can that atonement be made, but once it is done it puts us right with God.

Huh? :-\ So you are saying, mankind wronged God by being openly disobiedient to him, and in order for us to be forgiven for this, God has to sacrifice himself. :? But isnt that just wronging God yet again?? So here we have two wrongs against God- making a right??:muddlehea :confused:

Again, Cheese, thank-you for providing me an opportunity to address these questions.

No problem. I hope the next batch of questions arent too overwhelming. :D

I just wish I knew how to give shorter answers. :(

Mine are prhaps just as long! lol sorry about that.

take care,
Cheese

[islamicfajr]

But when I hear people of one faith challenging my faith or other people's faith it does seem to turn me away.

God is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world put together, all our prayers are heard by the same God.

hi Eric..

...the Truth is the Truth....
if you really love God and His Messenger Jesus, you will follow lslam and Prophet Muhammad. Break this barrier inside you and come back to the way of your ancestors. You are now free because you are looking for the Truth and our great prophet Jesus told us that we should look for the Truth and the Truth will set us free. So, you will be a free man as soon as you accept It. Be strong enough to accept lslam as the Truth, without any hesitation on your part and you will taste real freedom and real happiness that you have never tasted before.


Keep in ur Mind That: i convinced that the person who disbelieves in the religion of Allaah is a kaafir, does not believe what Allaah has told us about their being kaafirs, and he does not believe that the religion of Islam abrogates all previous religions and that all people must follow this religion no matter what their religion was before.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]
“Say (O Muhammad): “O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allaah”
[al-A’raaf 7:158]



i believe that : The Jews and Christians are kuffaar and mushrikeen.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth! … They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allaah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allaah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tauraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).”
[al-Tawbah 9:30-31].

............
It was reported from Abu Hurayrag that the Messenger of Allaah :saw: (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “By the One is Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, not one of this nation, Jew or Christian, will hear of me and will die without having believed in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the dwellers of Hell fire.”
(Narrated by Muslim, 153)

i believe that : the Jews are kaafirs

i'm believing in the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meanings)

“And their hearts absorbed (the worship of) the calf because of their disbelief”
[al-Baqarah 2:93]

“Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: “We hear your word (O Muhammad) and disobey,” and “Hear and let you (O Muhammad) hear nothing.” And Raa‘ina [in Arabic it means “Be careful, listen to us, and we listen to you”, whereas in Hebrew, it means “an insult”] with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of the religion (Islâm). And if only they had said: “We hear and obey”, and “Do make us understand,” it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allaah has cursed them for their disbelief…”
[al-Nisa’ 4:46]

“Because of their breaking the covenant, and of their rejecting the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allaah, and of their killing the Prophets unjustly, and of their saying: “Our hearts are wrapped (with coverings, i.e. we do not understand what the Messengers say)” — nay, Allaah has set a seal upon their hearts because of their disbelief, so they believe not but a little. And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse); And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah ‘Eesaa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,” — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesaa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)]…”
[al-Nisa’ 4:155-157]

“Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, “We believe in some but reject others,” and wish to adopt a way in between. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment”
[al-Nisa’ 4:150-151]

....................
i believe that : the Christians are kuffaar

i'm believing in the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meanings)

“Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allaah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary)…”
[al-Maa’idah 5:17]

“Surely, disbelievers are those who said: “Allaah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).” But there is no Ilaah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilaah (God —Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them”

[al-Maa’idah 5:73]

i'm believing in the words of Allaah concerning the Jews and Christians who do not believe in our Prophet or follow him:

“Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, “We believe in some but reject others,” and wish to adopt a way in between. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment”

[al-Nisa’ 4:150-151]

What is there left to say after these clear statements from Allaah, may He be exalted? We ask Allaah to guide us. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad :arabic5:.


Finally .....

Keep in ur Mind that:

Allaah has permitted kindness and fair treatment towards the kaafir who is not fighting the Muslims, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity”
[al-Mumtahanah 60:8]

But kindness and fair treatment does not mean friendship and love, because it is not permitted to take a kaafir as a friend or love him.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), even though they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rooh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens (Paradise) under which rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allaah is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the party of Allaah. Verily, it is the party of Allaah that will be the successful”
[al-Mujaadilah 58:22]

“O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth”
[al-Mumtahanah 60:1]

“O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitaanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand”
[Aal ‘Imraan 3:118]

“And incline not toward those who do wrong, lest the Fire should touch you, and you have no protectors other than Allaah, nor you would then be helped”
[Hood 12:113]

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)”
[al-Maa’idah 5:51]

peace,

[Malaikah]

Grace Seeker,

Dont forget you promised me a reply! :D

[Grace Seeker]

Grace Seeker,

Dont forget you promised me a reply!

Indeed I did. Sorry to take so long to get back to it.:embarrass

So, what everything comes down to, is this Kenosis theory. It would seem that if a person accepted this theory then everything else comes naturally. Therefore, I think it would be useless to discuss anythign other than this theory.

Well, as I read what you have written (and other posts from the Muslim brothers and sisters) I can see that we also have a different understanding of the nature of sin. We basically agree as to what sins are, but we view how they impact us differently. For Christians they are much more than just wrong acts. In the way that Islam talks about the whole of life being one of Islam or not, so to the Christian views one's relationship with God. But the bigger problem is not with the individual details of what one does or does not do, but in the attitude from which those actions spring. As the Crucifixion is a way of dealing with sin, we need to be sure that we mean the same thing when we use this term. For the Christian it is more than just Haraam (though that is bad enough), the real problem is a sin nature that lies deep within each person's heart. This very nature has to be changed.

From what I have understood so far, God is one but is composed of three: the father, the son and the spirit.

Yes. Interjecting an anology -- often you may see Christians use a triangle as sort of a representation of this. A triangle has three sides, but it is just one triangle. And it is only completely a triangle when talking about all of the sides together, yet if one lives in the plane of the triangle, one can only see one side of the triangle at a time. So one might speak of side A, side B, or side C. But the reality is that each side is just one view of the triangle which is always a whole.

Now, christian belief is that God, in the form of the son, came down to earth as Jesus and had to be offered as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind because there is no sacrifice big enough to do the job, other than God. While in this form- Jesus was human though still divine, and therefore acted as anyother human would too.

Now here is what bothers me. If God is everything that we believe him to be- the all-knowing, the all-seeing, the all-hearing, the wise, the patient, the almighty, can he possible go from being perfect to being imperfect? A human?

I am not willing to admit that humans, when they are what God created them to be, are imperfect. I will readily admit that I am imperfect. I will admit that I have known no perfect people. But I believe that when God created Adam and Eve that God paused at the end of his acts of creation, "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good" (Genesis 1:31). This even though we know that there is none God except God alone. Yet that we were very good is God's own opinion of us (and all creation). I believe that is because at the time of creation we were in fact perfect.

(Now, I don't know that you will get other Christians to word this like I have, but this is our conversation, so that is one way I wish to address your question. You may wish to see if other Christians might answer this question differently.)

It was as a result of the fall, when sin entered through disobedience, that we became imperfect. Christians believe that Jesus was born without this sin in his life. Thus, he was a perfect of a human being as were Adam and Eve. Only, unlike them, he lived a life of perfect obedience. So, there is no corruption for Jesus to be the perfect God in an imperfect human body, because he was in a perfect human body.

Being Almighty means to have unlimited power, right? It represents an ability. God can do anything. This is where yet another paradox comes up- if God can do anything, surely it is within his power to 'transform' himself to a state (i.e. human), in which he is no longer the almighty? He can do anything, so therefore He can make Himself human. But then, once He is human, He no longer exhibits those characteristics that are exclusive to God- i.e. all knowing, almighty, etc.

The solution to this paradox is that when when we say God is almighty, we are refering to an ability. But then to say that since He is almighty, it must be within His power to become human and 'give up' some of his awesome traits for an amount of time, during which he is no longer almighty and is falable as any other human is- this is not refering to an ability an longer, it is refering to both and ability AND disability.

To break it down: the 'ability' aspect comes in when one considers whether God can do something or not. So to ask 'Can God do so and so?' is refering to an ability. But when that so and so is actually itself an inability, the question breaks down into something meaningless because it goes against the very nature of God. The inability in this case is the idea that God can be a human.

To reinforce what I mean by the above, consider this example: "If God can do anything, can He create a rock so heavy which He Himself can not carry?"

Again, this line of thinking is based on the idea of ability/inability. The ability is in the part of the question that says 'can God...', and the inability is in the idea of the rock. Such a rock cannot even exist in the first place (not to mention that he only thing that makes the rock heavy is gravity and that God is not bound by gravity in the first place lol).

Okay... i hope that made sense. The point of all that was (incase you missed it lol) was: Can the almighty really 'transform' into a being that is not almighty? (No, of course He cant)

hahahaha I was thinking of the very "rock" question you posed, before I even got to where you brought it up. The problem with it is that you are looking at just one side of the triangle. That Jesus (pbuh) choose to limit himself and live devoid of those powers, doesn't mean that they are not a part of his nature. When I play with my grandchildren, I could win any game I were to choose to win. But I don't. Not because I cheat and throw them the game (though, I've been known to do that too), but because I handicap myself to play only on my knees or in some other way. That doesn't mean that I'm not really taller or faster or have whatever other ability, but I elect to give up that ability for a time. I am not truly disabled. But I do not exercise all of my ability. I empty myself of the ability to jump higher and run faster, but of course they are still a part of my nature. But for the period of time that I am interacting with my grandkids they are not evident.

Is this the paradox coming out again? How can Jesus be 100% human, which means that he is imperfect, sinful, lacking in absolute knowledge and understand, and at the same time is 100% God, meaning that he would be perfect, sinless (as sin is a comcept that by definition can not be attributed to God), all-knowing and full of understanding? :uuh:

I think I just addressed that question above. But, if not, let me know and I'll try again.

But even with these prophets people have strayed, and continue to stay from God.

That might be true for version of stories of the prophets that christians believe in (as far as I know, in biblical versions, your prophets committed adultey, got drunk... :uuh:). That is in NO WAY true for the Islamic version of events.

I said that the people who received the message of the prophets strayed and continued to stay from God. I don't think that is different from your understanding. Are there not people who received the Prophet Muhhamed's (pbuh) message that still strayed from God? Are there not people who still continue to stray from God? I see no difference.

Yes... the prophets were all perfect when it came to the belief in the oneness of God. They never made a mistake when it came to the religion, i.e. revelation and stuff like that, things that were directly linked to prophethood. They only made mistakes regarding their worldly lives, and then if it was a noteworthy mistake they would be corrected by Allah swt, (and also it was never major sins!! only minor ones.)

So, on that we are basically agreed. Except for I don't distinguish between major and minor sins. A sin is anything that separates us from God. Imagine an electrical connection. If the connection is broken, it doesn't matter if the break in the connection is a few millimeters or if it is kilometers. The current stops following. So too, the Holy Spirit (I know you don't believe in the concept) is God's presence following through our lives. But sin breaks that fellowship we were created to have with God. It doesn't matter the size of the sin. We can return to being obedient, but unless we repair the damage of that sin there will still be a break in the connection between us and God.

So yes, they are perfect examples for us. And the fact that they made mistakes is very important because we as humans make mistakes also and we need to have someone to look-up to as a role-model to teach us what to do once we make mistakes.

Of course, we have many role models too. All of the prophets you mentioned. But even more Jesus (pbuh). Because while the prophets committed these "minor" sins you speak of, Jesus (pbuh) didn't even do that. And given that he was also human, then he shows a way for the rest of us humans (if we get cleansed of our sins) to live a perfectly obedient life in follow connection with God just as he did.

From what I understand, Jesus didnt make mistakes (as he was God)? How then can we relate to him?

As I just said above, it isn't because he was God that Jesus (pbuh) made no mistakes. It was because he lived an obedient human life, fully submissive to his Father's will.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by a redeemer? Can you please explain?

I can try. Let's see what questions you have from what I have said here and then I'll take this and the following questions on. :happy:

And yet you have no problem believing the reverse- that God, who is perfect, can become imperfect under his own powers? :confused:

Huh? :-\ So you are saying, mankind wronged God by being openly disobiedient to him, and in order for us to be forgiven for this, God has to sacrifice himself. :? But isnt that just wronging God yet again?? So here we have two wrongs against God- making a right??:muddlehea :confused:

I don't think so, but can we keep this question in reserve till we are sure we understand each other (not that I expect that we will agree) on the above issues being disucssed.

No problem. I hope the next batch of questions arent too overwhelming. :D



Mine are prhaps just as long! lol sorry about that.

take care,
Cheese

I love it. You really challenge me to think. My son's girlfriend, asked some of these same questions today at lunch. You helped me to be better prepared. Thanks!! :thankyou:

[dougmusr]

ou are now free because you are looking for the Truth and our great prophet Jesus told us that we should look for the Truth and the Truth will set us free.

Is this a reference to a verse in the Quran?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Doesn't seem like it :?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you cheese, maybe if I can just reply to one of your points, in a way it highlights how I see my faith.

I believe that God always does things in a greatest good way, which is slightly different from saying God can do anything. So if you take a quality like love, then God would be the greatest source of love.

Can God love us more than he loves himself?

Or could the words of the greatest commandments possibly be used to describe God’s love.

God loves all that he is; with all his heart, soul, mind and strength?
God loves each and every one of us as he loves himself?

I have reflected on these words for the last seven years, and they seem to carry an awesome power. But they are purely thoughts, I have had no conscious revelations to say there is any truth in these words.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[snakelegs]

God is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world put together, all our prayers are heard by the same God.
Eric

i believe this too - i just interpret it a little broader than you do.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you snakelegs;

I have often found your replies to be very thoughtful and I would be interested to hear your broader interpretation of God and religion.


1 Thessalonians. 3:12
May the Lord be generous in increasing your love and make you love one another and the whole human race as much as we love you.


Eric

[Grace Seeker]

So, what everything comes down to, is this Kenosis theory. It would seem that if a person accepted this theory then everything else comes naturally. Therefore, I think it would be useless to discuss anythign other than this theory.

From what I have understood so far, God is one but is composed of three: the father, the son and the spirit. Now, christian belief is that God, in the form of the son, came down to earth as Jesus and had to be offered as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind because there is no sacrifice big enough to do the job, other than God. While in this form- Jesus was human though still divine, and therefore acted as anyother human would too.

Now here is what bothers me. If God is everything that we believe him to be- the all-knowing, the all-seeing, the all-hearing, the wise, the patient, the almighty, can he possible go from being perfect to being imperfect? A human?

Being Almighty means to have unlimited power, right? It represents an ability. God can do anything. This is where yet another paradox comes up- if God can do anything, surely it is within his power to 'transform' himself to a state (i.e. human), in which he is no longer the almighty? He can do anything, so therefore He can make Himself human. But then, once He is human, He no longer exhibits those characteristics that are exclusive to God- i.e. all knowing, almighty, etc.

The solution to this paradox is that when when we say God is almighty, we are refering to an ability. But then to say that since He is almighty, it must be within His power to become human and 'give up' some of his awesome traits for an amount of time, during which he is no longer almighty and is falable as any other human is- this is not refering to an ability an longer, it is refering to both and ability AND disability.

To break it down: the 'ability' aspect comes in when one considers whether God can do something or not. So to ask 'Can God do so and so?' is refering to an ability. But when that so and so is actually itself an inability, the question breaks down into something meaningless because it goes against the very nature of God. The inability in this case is the idea that God can be a human.

To reinforce what I mean by the above, consider this example: "If God can do anything, can He create a rock so heavy which He Himself can not carry?"

Again, this line of thinking is based on the idea of ability/inability. The ability is in the part of the question that says 'can God...', and the inability is in the idea of the rock. Such a rock cannot even exist in the first place (not to mention that he only thing that makes the rock heavy is gravity and that God is not bound by gravity in the first place lol).

Okay... i hope that made sense. The point of all that was (incase you missed it lol) was: Can the almighty really 'transform' into a being that is not almighty? (No, of course He cant)

Though I finally posted on this a couple of days ago, I have some new thoughts, or should I say questions, that this part of your post had me mulling over, Cheese. I hope you enjoy making me think, because you do. :D





OK, it might sound like a dumb question, but I'm really curious what others think about this. So the question is...

If God were to flip a coin, would it be possible for Him, an omniscient, omnipotent God, to completely remove all influence on the outcome of the flip? Could He flip a coin and then sit back and let it fall with a random outcome?

One notion would say that if God is doing the flipping, then He must influence (and know) the outcome before the coin even leaves His hand... meaning that it would be impossible for Him to relinquish control in order to generate a "random" outcome.

On the other side of the coin, one could say that an all-knowing, all-powerful God could somehow intentionally relinquish control over an object and let it come to rest with no influence from Him. If you believe this one, does it diminish God's omnipotence in any way?



(How do we make these questions relate to the official topic of this thread? I don't know. I'm not omniscient. But somehow, I'm sure they do. :) )

[Malaikah]

Indeed I did. Sorry to take so long to get back to it.:embarrass

Me too. :D I've taken a while to get back to it also, been a bit busy.

Well, as I read what you have written (and other posts from the Muslim brothers and sisters) I can see that we also have a different understanding of the nature of sin. We basically agree as to what sins are, but we view how they impact us differently. For Christians they are much more than just wrong acts. In the way that Islam talks about the whole of life being one of Islam or not, so to the Christian views one's relationship with God. But the bigger problem is not with the individual details of what one does or does not do, but in the attitude from which those actions spring. As the Crucifixion is a way of dealing with sin, we need to be sure that we mean the same thing when we use this term. For the Christian it is more than just Haraam (though that is bad enough), the real problem is a sin nature that lies deep within each person's heart. This very nature has to be changed.

Ok lets see if I get you here. When we say someone is doing haram, it means they are doing something God prohibited, therefore disobeying Him. To disobey him is a sin. I assume it would be the same in christianity.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by saying the 'attitude from which those actions spring', if you mean intentions, know that in Islam actions are judged by there intentions.

In regards to this nature of sin that mentioned, in Islam we believe that humans have in-built tendency to sin. This is how God has created us. In fact we are told that if we were perfect with regards to sinning (i.e. we never sinned) then God would have no use for us. Sinning is something that all people will do not matter what. This isnt something that can be changed. You cant make a person perfect, they will always sin. The objective is to reduce the amount of sinning a person does, and if a person does sin then they must turn to God in sincere repentence, and if they are granted forgiveness then they become like the person who never sinned in the first place.

Yes. Interjecting an anology -- often you may see Christians use a triangle as sort of a representation of this. A triangle has three sides, but it is just one triangle. And it is only completely a triangle when talking about all of the sides together, yet if one lives in the plane of the triangle, one can only see one side of the triangle at a time. So one might speak of side A, side B, or side C. But the reality is that each side is just one view of the triangle which is always a whole.

Yes I've read many such analogies, however I do find most of them to be rather shallow. I mean, it works nice for a triangle but not really for God. One side of a triangle can live independently of the other and change its identity to become a simple straight line. Can each part of God also go its own way? :?

I am not willing to admit that humans, when they are what God created them to be, are imperfect. I will readily admit that I am imperfect. I will admit that I have known no perfect people. But I believe that when God created Adam and Eve that God paused at the end of his acts of creation, "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good" (Genesis 1:31). This even though we know that there is none God except God alone. Yet that we were very good is God's own opinion of us (and all creation). I believe that is because at the time of creation we were in fact perfect.

Perhaps you need to define perfect? It is part of Islamic belief that only God is perfect. Being 'very good' falls very short of being perfect. And the fact that Adam and Eve did sin later on indicates that they always had the capicity to sin, so why are they perfect upon being created but imperfect upon being exposed to 'real life'? Being perfect would mean that they would have had the perfect response to the devil when he tempted them to sin.

It was as a result of the fall, when sin entered through disobedience, that we became imperfect. Christians believe that Jesus was born without this sin in his life. Thus, he was a perfect of a human being as were Adam and Eve. Only, unlike them, he lived a life of perfect obedience. So, there is no corruption for Jesus to be the perfect God in an imperfect human body, because he was in a perfect human body.

Muslims believe all humans are born without sin. There is no such thing as inheriting the sins of others in Islam, that would be an injustice.

i would also like to suggest that no, Jesus was not perfect or sinless, not even by the christian vesion of event. Upin death he said something like "Oh God, why have you forsaken me?" To say such is a big sin in Islam, a very big sin, to question God's wisdom and to show a lack of patience towards his decree. Had he been 'perfect' he would have known better than to question God's will. You will find in Islamic history many such cases where people were faced with very terrible situations as bad as crucifiction, and yet they never disobeyed God as such.

For example, one of the Muslims (a companion of the prophet pbuh) was captured by the enemy as a prisoner of war. Note that he wasnt even a prophet (let alone a God in the form of a human). The enemy wished to weaken him and they told him that if he doesnt give up Islam they will kill hom, but he didnt give up his faith. And then they got another Muslim prisoner and, in front of the companion, threw him into a pot of boiling oil, which was so hot that the prisoner later said that he saw the mans bones sticking out from his flesh. :muddlehea And then the enemy told him that this is what they would do to him if he didnt give Islam. But the man still refused. So then they took him and they were about to through him into the boiling oil and when he was aboce it he started to cry. So then the enemy thought they had finally made him crack so they didnt kil him and they put him done and they said to him something to the effect that 'we finally got to you'. And then he said to them, I wasnt crying out of fear, I was crying because I regreted that I did not have more lifes with which I could be sacrifice for the sake of God!

Subhanallah!! Now thats what I call faith! He didnt cry out to God and ask why he has been forsaken, no, he accepted God's will and was happy with it! And yet your "perfect son of God" wasnt perfect enough, not even in faith, to act in such a way! how is that perfection, let alone divinity?

hahahaha I was thinking of the very "rock" question you posed, before I even got to where you brought it up. The problem with it is that you are looking at just one side of the triangle. That Jesus (pbuh) choose to limit himself and live devoid of those powers, doesn't mean that they are not a part of his nature. When I play with my grandchildren, I could win any game I were to choose to win. But I don't. Not because I cheat and throw them the game (though, I've been known to do that too), but because I handicap myself to play only on my knees or in some other way. That doesn't mean that I'm not really taller or faster or have whatever other ability, but I elect to give up that ability for a time. I am not truly disabled. But I do not exercise all of my ability. I empty myself of the ability to jump higher and run faster, but of course they are still a part of my nature. But for the period of time that I am interacting with my grandkids they are not evident.

But you are talking about a physical advantage that you may have. Knowledge and wisdom arent something that you can give up. If you played against those kids a intellegence based game and the questin was asked, you would still know the answer better then them (assuming they very young kids lol). You can control that you know that 5+6=11 while they might not even know what 'plus' even means yet (at there age). And even if you did pretend you didnt know, it makes no difference, because you still know. So in the same way, how can God give up being all-wise and saying something like "why have you forsaken me?". Has he forgetten that this is his own plan that he is undertaking?! :confused:

I said that the people who received the message of the prophets strayed and continued to stay from God. I don't think that is different from your understanding. Are there not people who received the Prophet Muhhamed's (pbuh) message that still strayed from God? Are there not people who still continue to stray from God? I see no difference.

Oh ok, i thought you meant that the prophets (peace be upon them) strayed from the message. My mistake.

So, on that we are basically agreed. Except for I don't distinguish between major and minor sins. A sin is anything that separates us from God. Imagine an electrical connection. If the connection is broken, it doesn't matter if the break in the connection is a few millimeters or if it is kilometers. The current stops following. So too, the Holy Spirit (I know you don't believe in the concept) is God's presence following through our lives. But sin breaks that fellowship we were created to have with God. It doesn't matter the size of the sin. We can return to being obedient, but unless we repair the damage of that sin there will still be a break in the connection between us and God.

I dont think I really like that analogy as it assumes we need to be perfect to be 'connected' to God. Also, it doesnt distinguish between say, murder or disbelief in God, and say, a Muslim shaking hands with a member of the oppostie gender (we do not do this incase you didnt know). One sin is much more serious than the other, although yes both are sins, though if not forigen, the punishment for one sin is greater than the punishment for the other. And yes all sins remove us from God, but a bigger sin removes us more than a minor sin.

Of course, we have many role models too. All of the prophets you mentioned. But even more Jesus (pbuh). Because while the prophets committed these "minor" sins you speak of, Jesus (pbuh) didn't even do that. And given that he was also human, then he shows a way for the rest of us humans (if we get cleansed of our sins) to live a perfectly obedient life in follow connection with God just as he did.

See the above reference to why I dont think Jesus (the god version) was sinless or perfect.

I can try. Let's see what questions you have from what I have said here and then I'll take this and the following questions on. :happy:

I don't think so, but can we keep this question in reserve till we are sure we understand each other (not that I expect that we will agree) on the above issues being disucssed.

I really would like answers to these also!:happy:

I love it. You really challenge me to think. My son's girlfriend, asked some of these same questions today at lunch. You helped me to be better prepared. Thanks!! :thankyou:

lol ok no worries. Did she ask as many quesions as me?

[Malaikah]

On the other side of the coin, one could say that an all-knowing, all-powerful God could somehow intentionally relinquish control over an object and let it come to rest with no influence from Him. If you believe this one, does it diminish God's omnipotence in any way?

Well, firstly, why would he want to do that? Secondly, flipping a coin is something humans do, not God...

I do not think think that such a thing can happen, God will always know what will happen to the coin... because he created it that way.

There is no such thing as "no influence from Him". He is the one who created and designed the gravity that would make it fall, and the laws of physics that govern how it will act, and He is the one Who will determine how it is thrown, which obviously would effect how it would land.

Therefore, silly question! lol. And to be honest, this is philsophy type stuff, I am no philosopher, nor is there much room for philosophy in Islam. That nature of God is something simply beyond our comprehension so there is almost no use enterntainng the atheist who waste their lives coming up with such foolish questions.

I look forward to your reply (on the above post in particular)!

[Malaikah]

I believe that God always does things in a greatest good way, which is slightly different from saying God can do anything. So if you take a quality like love, then God would be the greatest source of love.

Yes I can agree with that.

Can God love us more than he loves himself?

Or could the words of the greatest commandments possibly be used to describe God’s love.

:?

God loves all that he is; with all his heart, soul, mind and strength?
God loves each and every one of us as he loves himself?

No, Muslims do not believe that He loves us all. He only loves those who believe in Him and do good deeds.

I have reflected on these words for the last seven years, and they seem to carry an awesome power. But they are purely thoughts, I have had no conscious revelations to say there is any truth in these words.

To me they seem like confusing (and rather not important questions). Although to honest I have never even come across this idea of God loving Himself. What does statement even mean? We can only understand from our human understanding of love, which I believe is probably rather limited.

So yeh I have no idea on this topic at all to be honest, but if I come across the Islamic understanding of this I will be sure to let you know, inshaallah.

:)

[Woodrow]

There is an interesting quality of us humans we love to ask questions, and often our questions are meaningless and when analyzed found to not even be question, just illogical statements.

The question of flipping the coin is one of those perplexing things. It sure does sound like a quetion, it looks like one and even has a question mark at the end. But, this falls into the realm of the age old arguement of what happens if an immovable object is hit by an iresistable force? Sounds logical, except by definition both do not exist at the same time. If there was such a thing as an immovable object, there would be no such thing as an irresistable force and vice versa. the basic definition of either rules out the existance of the other.

Now to the coin flipping:

Can God(swt) flip a coin randomly? That looks like a very logical and sensible question. But, is it an actual question or is it merely a hypothetical thought of a non-existant concept?

God(swt) created the material the coin is made of.
God(swt) is not limited by the laws of the physical world.

Randomnise is not a quality of God(swt)
God(swt) is not random.
His creations are not random.

If the coin were to be flipped without Gods(swt) it would not be Gods(swt) creation. But, God(swt) created all things.

The coin is subject to the will of God(swt)
God(swt) is not subject to the will of the coin.


Conclusion: Neither you nor I can make a coin that is not under the control of God(swt)

With the question we are trying to attribute a physical charecteristic to a non-physical being. The question is meaningless.

Now getting back to the Crucifixation. We are all basing our arguements on Human concepts. The only proof either of us have, is which concept is correct the Qur'an or the Bible. For those of us who believe in the Truth of the Qur'an, no more is needed. For those who believe the Bible is the truth, no arguement is sufficient.

With that said all we can do is compare our different beliefs of the crucifixion. Neither of us is going to alter the other's belief unless we can come to an agreement as to which source is the truth.

We are trying to make an apple pie and one of us is using the telephone book and one of us is using a cookbook. We know the one using the cookbook will succeed in making the pie. However, each of us believes we are using the cookbook and the other is using the telephone book.

[Grace Seeker]

Well, I'm having this conversation about the coin-flipping on two different boards. This one here, and where it originated on a Christian board. I shared your response there Malaikah, and here is what others posted in response:

posted by Rusty:

Grace Seeker,
I think I agree with your friend, therefore he (or she) must be a genius . At least I agree with his reasoning, although I'm not sure I agree with his conclusion that the question is meaningless. It sounds as though your friend's answer to the question would be that God does not generate a random outcome from a coin flip. Is that the way you read it as well?

What I conclude from the question is that I also do not think God creates anything that is not directly and completely influenced by His creative process. I think that is a very meaningful answer to the question. Am I misunderstanding something?

So would you agree?

from: JesPeachy on Friday, December 01, 2006, 01:47 PM
YOu are using a concrete example to place a limit on how God can or can't choose to move. Illustration? perhaps, but not adefnitive proof or evidence for or against predestination, as the biblical text has evidence for and against a human action/attitude/decision in the salvific process.

COncrete constructivism and soteriology do not happy bedfellows make.

posted by Rusty:
I figured you would say that , once you realized the larger implications of the simple example. The coin example is no more concrete than the human being example. I'm not placing any limits on how God chooses to move. God is God, and He's a Big God, and nothing happens independent from Him. That's the point, and that has nothing to do with placing limits on God.

And here is my response:

Posted by Grace Seeker

Rusty, I disagree with both you and my friend. The point being, God is capable of letting go. You are asserting that there is something that God is not capable of doing.

And guess what, if you were to create a machine to flip coins, even though the machine was set up identically every time, and even though the coin was placed on it identically every time. And even though the room was controled for no extraneous air currents, and the pull of the sun and the moon were all accounted for. The coin would still turn up heads roughly 50% of the time, and tails roughly 50% of the time. Some things are truly random.

Human free will introduces an element of radomnness into our interactions with God. It is the one point over which we are responsible. Without free will, since as you say, nothing happens independent from him, you have a world in which everything is dependent on him. Those two phrases -- "nothing happens independent from him" and "everything is dependent on him" -- being synonymous.

Now what are the implications of that point of view. If everything is dependent on God, then God is the ultimate cause of all things. This is not synonymous, but I believe it does logically follow from the first. Now, since we also know that all have sinned, you have God as the ultimate cause for all sin. That statement is a logical impossibility, given the nature and character of God. So, there must be some flaw in my reasoning. And that flaw is in the opening premise, that everything is dependent on God. For God does not always choose to act. Thus we live in a world in which God causes some things, prevents some things, and simply allows (neither causing nor preventing) other things. Some things really are just random.

That thread's conversation then went off more into a discussion of human free-will versus divine predestination, which doesn't really fit in this thread.

So, returning to some of our previous thouhts...One of the things that I see which seems to bother you, Maliakah, is that God should stoop so low as to enter into humanity. Unless I am misreading you, it is as if in seeking to honor God, you also seek to be proud for God.

The kenosis idea that I mention earlier has to do with God not needing to be lifted up. Remember, God doesn't really need us for anything. God is self-sufficient. So, God does need us even to honor him. He certainly is worthy of it, but he doesn't need it. Such a God would, in my opinion (and according to my reading of the scriptures I find authoritative -- obviously we differ on those) be able to set that aside if he so choose, and it would not diminish him. Yes, Jesus can be the Almight in nature, and yet set that aside to be vulenrable and week, needing even lowly human beings to tend to his basic needs for survival. This is what the incarnation (Christmas) is all about. About God putting on flesh and becoming one among us.

There is a verse from Paul's writings that I think is appropo here:

Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:22-24)

As we have discussed on another thread, Islam is not a continuation from Christianity, it is more like a continuation from Judaism. So, it is no surprise to me that we might in this forum say that the crucifixion is a stumbling block for Muslims and foolishness to agnostics and atheists. It is rooted in beliefs about the nature of God, which, if you could accept you would also likely accept Christianity. But if you reject those beliefs, and it is clear that you do, then you would reject Christianity.

However, I am enjoying this conversation, as I believe it is at least helping us to better understand each other's faith -- always a good thing. So I will return here later to address some more of your questions which I may not have really taken the time they deserved today.

Peace

[Malaikah]

I think I agree with your friend, therefore he (or she) must be a genius

I think I like this Rusty guy lol. :shade:

And guess what, if you were to create a machine to flip coins, even though the machine was set up identically every time, and even though the coin was placed on it identically every time. And even though the room was controled for no extraneous air currents, and the pull of the sun and the moon were all accounted for. The coin would still turn up heads roughly 50% of the time, and tails roughly 50% of the time. Some things are truly random.

Can you prove this? :? I really doubt that.

So, returning to some of our previous thouhts...One of the things that I see which seems to bother you, Maliakah, is that God should stoop so low as to enter into humanity. Unless I am misreading you, it is as if in seeking to honor God, you also seek to be proud for God.

Yes that does bother me. This is from the Quran:

019.088 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
019.089 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
019.090 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
019.091 That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
019.092 For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
[Maryam 19:88-92]

The important part to note is the bold part. These things that you have attributed to him are not is accordance with the Majesty of God.

Anyway, for now I'll just wait for you to reply to my questions about Jesus before I reply to anything else.

[Grace Seeker]

I think I like this Rusty guy lol. :shade:

I think he's single. :statisfie


Strangely enough, regarding the coin flipping machine. Because each year the SuperBowl (American football's big annual game) is begun with a coin flip to determine who gets the ball, the NFL teams that participate have invested thousands of dollars to determine whether it is better to call heads or tails. They got results that said the odds are actually something like 49.9997 to 50.0003, but I don't remember which side was better. :embarrass Do you really want me to go back and research it?

Yes that does bother me. This is from the Quran:

019.088 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
019.089 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
019.090 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
019.091 That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
019.092 For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
[Maryam 19:88-92]

The important part to note is the bold part. These things that you have attributed to him are not is accordance with the Majesty of God.

Anyway, for now I'll just wait for you to reply to my questions about Jesus before I reply to anything else.

And I can understand why, given your love of the Qur'an that you would then have the feelings you do for another scripture that challenges those ideas. While much of what we believe as Chrsitians and Muslims is very similar -- for instance, I believe we worship the same God -- there is no denying that there is no wiggle room on these points about Jesus. One set of scriptures says one thing, and the other says the exact opposite. You may never be comfortable with accepting the Bible as true and I may never be comfortable with accepting the Qur'an as true for exactly the same reason; the difference being are starting points regarding which scripture we have chosen first to believe.


As to the questions you want addressed, we have enough things that are up in the air in this discussion that perhaps it would be well to pick those which are most important. If they all are, I will happily address them one at a time, and then pray to live long enough to answer. :happy:

[Malaikah]

lol no no its ok lets not start talking about flipping coins, it ok you dont have to look it up.

In my opinion the most important part of my post was this part, that is the part I would like an answer to please:

Muslims believe all humans are born without sin. There is no such thing as inheriting the sins of others in Islam, that would be an injustice.

i would also like to suggest that no, Jesus was not perfect or sinless, not even by the christian vesion of event. Upin death he said something like "Oh God, why have you forsaken me?" To say such is a big sin in Islam, a very big sin, to question God's wisdom and to show a lack of patience towards his decree. Had he been 'perfect' he would have known better than to question God's will. You will find in Islamic history many such cases where people were faced with very terrible situations as bad as crucifiction, and yet they never disobeyed God as such.

For example, one of the Muslims (a companion of the prophet pbuh) was captured by the enemy as a prisoner of war. Note that he wasnt even a prophet (let alone a God in the form of a human). The enemy wished to weaken him and they told him that if he doesnt give up Islam they will kill hom, but he didnt give up his faith. And then they got another Muslim prisoner and, in front of the companion, threw him into a pot of boiling oil, which was so hot that the prisoner later said that he saw the mans bones sticking out from his flesh. And then the enemy told him that this is what they would do to him if he didnt give Islam. But the man still refused. So then they took him and they were about to through him into the boiling oil and when he was aboce it he started to cry. So then the enemy thought they had finally made him crack so they didnt kil him and they put him done and they said to him something to the effect that 'we finally got to you'. And then he said to them, I wasnt crying out of fear, I was crying because I regreted that I did not have more lifes with which I could be sacrifice for the sake of God!

Subhanallah!! Now thats what I call faith! He didnt cry out to God and ask why he has been forsaken, no, he accepted God's will and was happy with it! And yet your "perfect son of God" wasnt perfect enough, not even in faith, to act in such a way! how is that perfection, let alone divinity?

Quote:
hahahaha I was thinking of the very "rock" question you posed, before I even got to where you brought it up. The problem with it is that you are looking at just one side of the triangle. That Jesus (pbuh) choose to limit himself and live devoid of those powers, doesn't mean that they are not a part of his nature. When I play with my grandchildren, I could win any game I were to choose to win. But I don't. Not because I cheat and throw them the game (though, I've been known to do that too), but because I handicap myself to play only on my knees or in some other way. That doesn't mean that I'm not really taller or faster or have whatever other ability, but I elect to give up that ability for a time. I am not truly disabled. But I do not exercise all of my ability. I empty myself of the ability to jump higher and run faster, but of course they are still a part of my nature. But for the period of time that I am interacting with my grandkids they are not evident.

.......

But you are talking about a physical advantage that you may have. Knowledge and wisdom arent something that you can give up. If you played against those kids a intellegence based game and the questin was asked, you would still know the answer better then them (assuming they very young kids lol). You can control that you know that 5+6=11 while they might not even know what 'plus' even means yet (at there age). And even if you did pretend you didnt know, it makes no difference, because you still know. So in the same way, how can God give up being all-wise and saying something like "why have you forsaken me?". Has he forgetten that this is his own plan that he is undertaking?!

[Grace Seeker]

Malaikah, I'm going to try to restate your questions/comments to see if I have them correct.

1) There is disagreement between us regarding the concept of original sin or inherited depravity. It is foreign to your way of thinking about human nature and intrinsic to mine. There are two question contained in it: (a) how can sins be passed on from on human being to another who had nothing to do with committing them? (b) even if such a thing were possible, how could a just God allow for that to happen and still be understood as a just God?

2) You question my assertion that Jesus was sinless, primarily on the basis of reported his cry while on the cross: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me." You see such a statement as an exrpession of either lack of faith, or disobedience in the form of questioning God's wisdom.

3) Though not mentioned directly, you still have questions about this whole kenosis theory, for even if God were to come to earth he would still have to be fully God (including being almighty, all-knowing, eternal, and all of God's other divine attributes) or he wouldn't be God, he would be something else less than God.

Have I got the gist of your position on each of these correct. If not, please restate them and we will continue.

Btw, I know I'm not going to change your mind, I'm not even trying, but I do love the way you keep prodding me to think deeper. I'm pretty sure that once we understand where we are each coming from that we will still remain Christians and Muslim, but better informed Christian and Muslim.:)

[Malaikah]

Yep, youve got them all right, pretty much, but you just forget one:

4)How can God be one but three at the same time? A father, son and spirit, they are seperate physically no doubt, because the son was on earth and the father was in heaven and I dont know where the spirit was... :? you used the triangle analogy but it just doesnt work because you can pull apart the triangle and end up with only three lines that are no longer all part of the triangle... I dont think you can rip up God...:rollseyes

Also, I know you wont be able to make me change my mind and I doubt I can make you change your mind (especially because I am not knowledgable enough) but I think it is good practise for myself, for the real world.

[dougmusr]

4)How can God be one but three at the same time? A father, son and spirit, they are seperate physically no doubt, because the son was on earth and the father was in heaven and I dont know where the spirit was...

Who is the Holy Spirit referred to in the following verses from the Quran?

002.253 YUSUFALI: Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

002.087 YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit.

005.110 YUSUFALI: Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit,

016.102 YUSUFALI: Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

[Malaikah]

Hi there.

The Holy Spirit mentioned there is the Angel Gabrial. In Arabic it is Ruh-ul-Qudus. And in case you were wondering, it isn't evidence to support the trinity. :)

[blackwhite]

Asalam-u-alaikum,Iam blackwhite,Did Prophet Eessa(alaih salam)ever preached
chrishtianity?the answer is no.there are many answer,you can get the answer on www.irf.netAllahafiz.

[dougmusr]

Hi there.

The Holy Spirit mentioned there is the Angel Gabrial. In Arabic it is Ruh-ul-Qudus. And in case you were wondering, it isn't evidence to support the trinity. :)

Can you provide a verse reference in the Quran that explicitly says Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

[Malaikah]

There isn't a specific verse that defines it but it is obvious from the context of many of the verses and with support from the hadiths that Ruh-ul-Qudus is Gabrial, you can read here for more information:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=14403&ln=eng

[islamicfajr]

Can you provide a verse reference in the Quran that explicitly says Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

Here:Discussion with Christians about The spirit of God

peace,
islamicfajr

[paarsurrey]

Wellcome here..

Question:Why is it so difficult for the Muslims to believe that Christ was crucified to erase our sins? Why do they reject the idea of the Crucifixion altogether?
Answer:There is nothing strange about the Muslims rejecting this idea, because the Qur’aan in which they believe and accept what it tells them definitively states that that did not happen.
Rather the problem rests with the Christians for whom the doctrine of the crucifixion and redemption has become a central issue, so much so that the cross is the symbol of their religion.
which indicates their confusion
At what hour did this crucifixion take place – was it in the third hour, as Mark says, or in the sixth as John says?
islamicfajr

Hi
I have to support brother islamicfajr that Jesus never died on Cross and the Christians have all but confusion regarding the event of Crucifixion. The Christians friends should rethink over the issue rationally and they should also seek guidance in prayers from GodAllahYHWH in the matter, then they would come to know the truth. Even if Jesus would have died on Cross as our Christian brothers think; what relation has it got with the sin? It has absolutely no relationship. The cure of sins lies in the repentance of the person and his resolve not to do it again and askance of forgiveness from GodAllahYHWH, and its acceptance by GodAllahYHWH, who has all the authority to forgive and no other human being is involved in that process.
This entire concept, please don’t be angry and let me say, is based on a fallacy and not on rational thinking.
For instance if a person A loves B and B has a headache and tell A that I have a headache and instead of arranging some medicine for B; A lifts a stone and blast his own head with it. Would that be an action of sanity on the part of A? No, never.
Jesus was ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH a perfect wise man of God, he could never think of doing such suicidal action; and that for others and for what benefit to them. This concept is a brain child of Paul, be sure my friend. Beware of Paul my dear Christians friends! Jesus would deny having said it to anybody.
In a way JesusYeshuaIssa himself explained the process of alleviation of sins when he promised to show the Sign of Jonah.
1. Jonah prayed to GodAllahYHWH in the belly of the fish and his prayer/repentance was accepted by Him without any sacrifice any human being and he save his life.
2. People of Nineveh did not accept Jonah and insisted on remaining sinful and Jonah returned in anguish. Late, they realized their mistake asked repentance/forgiveness from GodAllahYHWH and they were forgiven, no need of any human sacrifice.
May GodAllahYHWH bless all Christian and Muslim friends here on this forum.
Thanks
I am from a peaceful faith working for unity of all revealed religions with peaceful means.

[duskiness]

I have to support brother islamicfajr that Jesus never died on Cross

we know that, this is your beliefe.

and the Christians have all but confusion regarding the event of Crucifixion.

we also have heard this...

The Christians friends should rethink over the issue rationally and they should also seek guidance in prayers from GodAllahYHWH in the matter, then they would come to know the truth.

You see Paarsurrey, the problem is that your Christian friends, after some thinking and praying, have come to conclusion that their faith is true (or "true"). We feel about it just as you feel about Islam.

Even if Jesus would have died on Cross as our Christian brothers think; what relation has it got with the sin? It has absolutely no relationship. The cure of sins lies in the repentance of the person and his resolve not to do it again and askance of forgiveness from GodAllahYHWH, and its acceptance by GodAllahYHWH, who has all the authority to forgive and no other human being is involved in that process.
This entire concept, please don’t be angry and let me say, is based on a fallacy and not on rational thinking.
For instance if a person A loves B and B has a headache and tell A that I have a headache and instead of arranging some medicine for B; A lifts a stone and blast his own head with it. Would that be an action of sanity on the part of A? No, never.

that's a bit different subject. Of course you know that for us there IS a connection between sin and HIS death?

Jesus was ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH a perfect wise man of God, he could never think of doing such suicidal action; and that for others and for what benefit to them.

Maybe if He was just a man, you would be right :D

This concept is a brain child of Paul, be sure my friend. Beware of Paul my dear Christians friends! Jesus would deny having said it to anybody.

the story about evil Paul is also well known on this boards. Can I ask what would exactly Jesus deny saying?

In a way JesusYeshuaIssa himself explained the process of alleviation of sins when he promised to show the Sign of Jonah.
1. Jonah prayed to GodAllahYHWH in the belly of the fish and his prayer/repentance was accepted by Him without any sacrifice any human being and he save his life.
2. People of Nineveh did not accept Jonah and insisted on remaining sinful and Jonah returned in anguish. Late, they realized their mistake asked repentance/forgiveness from GodAllahYHWH and they were forgiven, no need of any human sacrifice.

Our interpretation os sing of Jonah is different. Jonah was in this fish for 3 day and after this he was set free - "came back to life". Jesus was dead for 3 days and then He resurrected.

May GodAllahYHWH bless all Christian and Muslim friends here on this forum.

:D here we both agree. I think we should also ask Him to bless "our" non- Muslims/Christians :)

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


%%

I'm here ....let me check it...since June. Something like 5 months :uuh: . And today i'm tired.


I'm also tried both physically and mentally, what probably also plays it role..but right now I'm tried of being Christian on LI


As much as like LI and you all, I'm tired of being "called to blackboard" and being "proved" what an idiot i must be believing in Christ.
So i'm taking holidays from forum.

All the best to you all! you are really a great bunch of people! I hope i will be back sometime in the future.

Till then!
natalia

I did not read the whole post or the other related posts . My quick thought about ur frustration as a Christians in an Islamic forum.

I m a Muslim & i m also furstrated here . I see few non-Muslims are regualarly writing that Muhammed (p) is a false Prophet . Can u feel my pain ? Do u think , i should also take '' holidays from forum ''? :uuh:

[yahyazakarya]

MAhse'Allah brother islamicfajr
thank u thank u baraka Allahu fik

wa assalam

[islamicfajr]

hi , duskiness

i think if u read these theards the pic 'll be clear 4 u....

The True Message of Jesus Christ

Christ in Islam

and if u turth seeker.. here ..Muslim <---> Christian Dialogue.......

“Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free” John 8:31 – (NIV)

....................

n here :Unique Features of Islaam

peace,

islamicfajr

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Can you provide a verse reference in the Quran that explicitly says Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

Useful links:

What is the Holy Spirit?


Pavao - United States

Question: I am a new Muslim convert, and having come from a Christian family. I am still very much confused about the Holy spirit issue.




I know that the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the Holy Qur’an in Surahs 2:87, 2:253, 5:110, and 16:102. And, the Bible makes it a requirement to believe in the Holy Spirit, in order to enter Heaven (the context of John 3: 4-6).

Can you shed some light upon this issue for me?



&&

Muslim Christian Dialogue

H. M. Baagil, M.D.


http://www.iad.org/books/MCD.html

M. ……What is the Holy Spirit?



C. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost and is also God. We are taught that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God. We are not allowed to say Three Gods, but One God.


M. Read Matthew 1:18.


C. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."



M. Compare this with Luke 1:26-27.

C. "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."


M. In Jesus' miraculous birth Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. What is the Holy Ghost?


C. That being the case, the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel.

%%%


Surah 16. The Bee


Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

[duskiness]

I did not read the whole post or the other related posts . My quick thought about ur frustration as a Christians in an Islamic forum.

I m a Muslim & i m also furstrated here . I see few non-Muslims are regualarly writing that Muhammed (p) is a false Prophet . Can u feel my pain ? Do u think , i should also take '' holidays from forum ''? :uuh:

Hi Muslim Woman. my post, to which you were referred to, was written in November. I took my "holidays" (even longer than I wanted...) and I'm back :)
if you feel frustration than taking a break from any forum is a good idea. To discus anything one should have calm head & heart and be able to give everyone benefit of doubt. I knew I couldn't do it, so I left.
If you are also thinking about it, just remember to COME BACK :D

[Grace Seeker]

While there are more points that we have in common than many people might at first think, whether it is the Crucifixion or the Holy Sprit or even the very nature of God there are many important points on which Christians and Muslims disagree simply because the teachings of our respective books of scripture are not in harmony with one another. Thus, if one is converting from one to the other, I would think you would not care what the view of the former was and it should be sufficient to learn from one's new faith what its teachings are. However, if one wants to compare, I would suggest that one not ask a Muslim to explain the Christian understanding of these things anymore than one would ask a Christian to explain the Muslim understanding of jihad.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Grace Seeker: I would suggest that one not ask a Muslim to explain the Christian understanding of these things anymore than one would ask a Christian to explain the Muslim understanding of jihad.

----haha, good point :smile:

but what about informing others without being rude ? :mad:

duskiness: To discus anything one should have calm head & heart and be able to give everyone benefit of doubt. I knew I couldn't do it, so I left.


---I have noticed in this forum & other forum that Christians are complaining how Muslims hurt their feelings by telling them that Jesus (p) is not God.


It surprises me a bit 'cause though we don't worship Jesus (p) , we do respect him & Mother Mary (p) & it's the part of our faith.

Do not believe in Jesus's (p) death on the Cross does not give us right to say any nasty things against him . It's a must for us to respect him.No one can remain as a Muslim if s/he does not believe in the virgin birth when many Christians don't believe in it anymore.



Do Christians complain against other faiths who don't believe in Jesus (p) & Mary (p) ? May be , they are sending them to hell when Muslim believe that both the Mother Mary (p) & Jesus (p) will be in Paradise forever. :okay:



I suggest that if my Christians bro & sisters keep these in mind , then may be it will be easy for them to tolerate Muslims :giggling: in any Islamic forums or elsewhere. & won't have to leave the forum anymore ( hopefully ) :p


duskiness : I took my "holidays" (even longer than I wanted...) and I'm back


---welcome to the forum :okay:
did u join in other forum where u belonged to majority? :p

If you are also thinking about it, just remember to COME BACK

--thank u :thankyou:

[NoName55]

Hi
I have to support brother islamicfajr that Jesus never died on Cross ......................

That is not quite what you really believe is it now? (there is a lot more to it than meets the eye).