Faith vs works

[glo]

I have heard it said that in Christianity faith is what matters most, whereas in Islam good deeds/works is what matters most.

The more I learn about Islam, the more I think the differences between the two religions with regards to these are not a great as some may believe.

I would like to explore just how the two different religions place their values on faith and works.
I would love to see this develop into a joint exploration of Christianity and Islam, rather than a 'X-is-right-and-Y-is-wrong' type argument ...

To set the scene, I will try to outline the positions of both religions, as I understand them (and trust that other Christians and Muslims will correct me if I'm wrong, or just add to it):

It is true that in Christianity faith is of the first and foremost importance for slavation. Jesus said:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. (John 5:24-25)

But is Islam so different in that respect?
Is believing in Allah, the one God, not also a prerequisite for entering paradise?

As for works, Islam puts great emphasis on doing good deeds and being charitable - and the level punishment received in hell is dependent on conduct during one's earthly life.

But Jesus also gave some tough instruction on how do act towards fellow-humans (believers and non-believers).
And there are several Bible verses which indicate that believers will be judged by their actions on the Day of Judgement.
Here are a few which spring to mind:

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 19:21-23)

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' (Matthew 25: 35-40)

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. (Revelation 20:11-13)

So, going back to my original question: How different are the views of Islam and Christianity with regards to the importance of faith and good deeds?

Peace

[- Qatada -]

Hi glo.


You have to realise that for a person to be a believer [since the message was revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him], they have to testify: Laa illaaha illAllaah Muhammad-ur RasoolAllaah (there is no deity worthy of worship except Allaah, and Muhammad [peace be upon him] is the Messenger of Allaah.


When a person sincerely testifies to this, then this is their first step. They are a mu'min (a believer.) Believing that none is worthy of worship besides Allaah has been the same message of all the previous prophets, and if a person believes in this sincerely, it means that they will worship Allaah because word of mouth isn't sufficient - but action proves this, therefore establishing salaah (the prayer) and obeying Allaah is proving this testification.



This mean's that faith and deeds come hand in hand [together] and without the other, it shows a lack of faith. So if a person says 'there is none worthy of worship besides Allaah' they will have to show this by action (i.e. by obeying Allaah, and His messenger (peace be upon him.) etc. How can a person say there is none worthy of worship besides Allaah, if this person is worshipping their own desires, instead of the orders given by Allaah?



We know that the last person to come out of the hellfire will only have a really small amount of faith in his heart,



On the day of resurrection, we will be responsible for our own actions. Faith will be a really important factor that day because anyone who never believed that Allaah should be worshipped alone may be eligible to the punishment of Allaah. If a person believed that none is worthy of worship besides Allaah, but sinned within his/her life - Allaah may choose to forgive them out of His Mercy.

When Allah has finished His Judgments among the people, He will take whomever He will out of Hell through His Mercy. He will then order the angels to take out of the Fire all those who used to worship none but Allah from among those whom Allah wanted to be merciful to and those who testified (in the world) that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah. The angels will recognize them in the Fire by the marks of prostration (on their foreheads), for the Fire will eat up all the human body except the mark caused by prostration as Allah has forbidden the Fire to eat the mark of prostration. They will come out of the (Hell) Fire, completely burnt and then the water of life will be poured over them and they will grow under it as does a seed that comes in the mud of the torrent.


Then Allah will finish the judgments among the people, and there will remain one man facing the (Hell) Fire and he will be the last person among the people of Hell to enter Paradise. He will say, 'O my Lord! Please turn my face away from the fire because its air has hurt me and its severe heat has burnt me.' So he will invoke Allah in the way Allah will wish him to invoke, and then Allah will say to him, 'If I grant you that, will you then ask for anything else?' He will reply, 'No, by Your Power, (Honor) I will not ask You for anything else.' He will give his Lord whatever promises and covenants Allah will demand.





So Allah will turn his face away from Hell (Fire). When he will face Paradise and will see it, he will remain quiet for as long as Allah will wish him to remain quiet, then he will say, 'O my Lord! Bring me near to the gate of Paradise.' Allah will say to him, 'Didn't you give your promises and covenants that you would never ask for anything more than what you had been given? Woe on you, O Adam's son! How treacherous you are!' He will say, 'O my lord,' and will keep on invoking Allah till He says to him, 'If I give what you are asking, will you then ask for anything else?' He will reply, 'No, by Your (Honor) Power, I will not ask for anything else.'





Then he will give covenants and promises to Allah and then Allah will bring him near to the gate of Paradise. When he stands at the gate of Paradise, Paradise will be opened and spread before him, and he will see its splendor and pleasures whereupon he will remain quiet as long as Allah will wish him to remain quiet, and then he will say, O my Lord! Admit me into Paradise.' Allah will say, 'Didn't you give your covenants and promises that you would not ask for anything more than what you had been given?' Allah will say, 'Woe on you, O Adam's son! How treacherous you are! '





The man will say, 'O my Lord! Do not make me the most miserable of Your creation,' and he will keep on invoking Allah till Allah will laugh because of his sayings, and when Allah will laugh because of him, He will say to him, 'Enter Paradise,' and when he will enter it, Allah will say to him, 'Wish for anything.' So he will ask his Lord, and he will wish for a great number of things, for Allah Himself will remind him to wish for certain things by saying, '(Wish for) so-and-so.' When there is nothing more to wish for, Allah will say, 'This is for you, and its equal (is for you) as well."


Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532c

There are also other ahadith which mention that no-one can enter paradise through their good deeds, but Allaah will only allow a person to enter paradise through Allaah's Mercy. So we strive to do good deeds to earn Allaah's pleasure, so He may be pleased with us and allow us into paradise.

The reward of paradise is too great, and even if we did all the good we could in this world, it still wouldn't be sufficient because paradise is forever, whereas this world is only limted.




Allaah Almighty knows best.

Peace.

[Chuck]

In Islam both are important, if one is the soul then the other is body... both suppose to work together for healthy faith.

[Keltoi]

As far as I understand it, there isn't really a major difference between Christians and Muslims on the issue of faith and good works. It is primarily a matter of semantics. For both religions, faith in God is the first and most fundamental step, and this faith manifests itself through good works.

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[glo]

Thank you, Fi_Sabilillah and Chuck, for your clarifications. :)

As far as I understand it, there isn't really a major difference between Christians and Muslims on the issue of faith and good works. It is primarily a matter of semantics. For both religions, faith in God is the first and most fundamental step, and this faith manifests itself through good works.

Thanks to you too, Keltoi.

I too have found that Christianity and Islam seem to be very similar in this respect.
I like the way you described it (see sentence highlighted in bold)

And yet many Muslims seem to think that Christians can act in any way they like, without fear of God's judgement.
I wonder where that misunderstanding stems from?
Perhaps because they see people, who they know or assume to be Christians, act in ungodly ways?

[- Qatada -]

Hi glo.


If a person commits evil in this world while believing in Jesus's salvation (according to christians) - will the person have to go hellfire, or will they go to the eternal kingdom anyway?




Thanks.

[glo]

Hi glo.


If a person commits evil in this world while believing in Jesus's salvation (according to christians) - will the person have to go hellfire, or will they go to the eternal kingdom anyway?

Thanks.

Hi Fi_Sabilillah

I am not sure I have the knowledge to answer you question suitably.
To my knowledge Christian teaching is not as prescriptive and descriptive in the punishments in the afterlife, as Islamic teachings are ...

Here in LI I come across threads which quite clearly outline what kind of punishment is to be expected for what kind of sin - many very detailed in their description, and fear-inducing.
I also remember reading that Muslims have to expect to suffer hellfire for a period of time, as a means of being cleansed from their commited sins.

I don't think the Bible is as clear as this ...
The final judgement is God's!

I am sorry if this is not a satisfactory reply, but it is the best I can do off the top of my head, and I am about to log off ...
perhaps somebody else can add to this.

Peace :)

[- Qatada -]

Oh ok, it's just that muslims fear to disobey Allaah because punishment is used to turn people away from evil in this world. Reward is also used as a positive reinforcement, and people won't take advantage of the fact that their muslims just to gain that salvation, but they have to strive to earn it.


It's more of a love, fear and hope thing.




Anyway thanks.


Peace.

[-Shakirah-]

Peace glo

The Bible (injeel) which the christians follow is one of the four heavenly books that Muslims believe in. The other two are the Palms (Zaboor) and the Torah (Toraat), which the Jews follow.
So you see, these religions are very similar because (Islam teaches) they all belong to the same creator.
However just like the jews believe in the Palms and the Torah and didn't carry on to following the Bible, (Muslims feel) that the Christians stopped at the Bible and didn't go on to continuing their faith onto the Quran.

Muslims believe that the Quran is the last and final scriptual communication from God to mankind and it is sufficiant to last until the end of time. We also believe it is the original words of God and we have a garantee that the words will never be changed in anyway what-so-ever, dispite the many attemps of people over time.
Therefore, in answer to the orignal question, the majority of knowlegded Muslims do not see any difference or major difference in the true guilded religions.

Salams

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Peace


Its just because christianity concentrates so much on faith and so little on practicality that it seems kind of like learning a course without a tutor.
I hope that makes sense :).

But the idea of having pure faith is beautiful.



Peace -

[-Shakirah-]

Peace


Its just because christianity concentrates so much on faith and so little on practicality that it seems kind of like learning a course without a tutor.
I hope that makes sense :).

But the idea of having pure faith is beautiful.



Peace -

Yeah he has a point

[Keltoi]

I wouldn't say Christianity puts more emphasis on faith than practicality. The churches in the United States are very giving to charities and do alot of social work. Yes, faith is important, but you can't have faith in Christ and not commit yourself to doing good works. It is difficult if not impossible to have one without the other.

[-Shakirah-]

I wouldn't say Christianity puts more emphasis on faith than practicality. The churches in the United States are very giving to charities and do alot of social work. Yes, faith is important, but you can't have faith in Christ and not commit yourself to doing good works. It is difficult if not impossible to have one without the other.

Well my point was, besides the optional acts of charity the Muslims may do, we have the obligatory 5 daily prayers, that we believe we will be held accountable for. So faith alone isn't 'enough' for us, we have to show it too. And that my friend, is the real test. Because to wake up at four in the morning to remember God isn't as easy as just saying, 'yeah i have faith.'

[zanjabeela]

And yet many Muslims seem to think that Christians can act in any way they like, without fear of God's judgement.
I wonder where that misunderstanding stems from?
Perhaps because they see people, who they know or assume to be Christians, act in ungodly ways?

Peace to all.
I know for myself where such a misunderstanding comes from. Its not so much witnessing the Christians who behave in ungodly ways--all faiths have those people among their numbers. Its largely the idea of salvation, that Jesus died for our sins. It usually sounds like they are saying "since he died for our sins, we can do whatever we want, because no matter what we do, the sin is already paid for."

With practicing Christians, I don't see them applying the idea that "we can do whatever we want," so I am slowly but surely coming to see that there is a good segment of the Christian population for whom faith and practice do go hand in hand...as for practicing Muslims.

[Grace Seeker]

Thank you, Fi_Sabilillah and Chuck, for your clarifications. :)


And yet many Muslims seem to think that Christians can act in any way they like, without fear of God's judgement.
I wonder where that misunderstanding stems from?

There is good reason for the misunderstanding. Many Christians are guilty of corrupting their own faith to make it say something that it does not.

There are those Christians that are so opposed to the view that one can earn one's way to heaven by doing certain good works, regardless of what one believes, that they appear as if they reject good works altogether as they chant "Faith Alone!".

Of course, this is an over-reaction. But it does exist and when Muslims (or anyone else sees it) it is understandable that they would reject that form of Christianity. For that matter, so do I -- and so does everyone else I know who takes their Christian faith seriously. But the stereotype exists and as Christians we need to do more to correct it.

[Grace Seeker]

Peace to all.
I know for myself where such a misunderstanding comes from. Its not so much witnessing the Christians who behave in ungodly ways--all faiths have those people among their numbers. Its largely the idea of salvation, that Jesus died for our sins. It usually sounds like they are saying "since he died for our sins, we can do whatever we want, because no matter what we do, the sin is already paid for."

With practicing Christians, I don't see them applying the idea that "we can do whatever we want," so I am slowly but surely coming to see that there is a good segment of the Christian population for whom faith and practice do go hand in hand...as for practicing Muslims.

Zanjabeela,

Thank you for observing the distinction. Sadly there are those people who call themselves Christian, and act as if a one time profession of faith is all that God is interested in. But as you observed, practicing Christians sing a different tune. --Literally a different tune, there is an old gospel song called "Trust and Obey". One needs both. We understand Jesus (pbuh) to teach, in Matthew 25, that it is how we treat the "least of these" in our societies on which one will be judged fit or unfit for the kingdom of God. The book of James puts it even more strongly:

James 2
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

[Umar001]

I dont know if in my zeal to post I have over looked something but dear Glo! Am dissapointed, lol, with regards to faith, how could the book of James be left out, I loved quoting this book left right and center, this book and the book of Titus, *drools*
I even used to use quotes of this in my songs/poetry.

Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Honestly, I mean, the book of James, really made me love it's author, in my pre-Islamic days.

EDIT: Darn! Grace Seeker got there as I was putting this up, :p

[zanjabeela]

Nifty, you both got the exact same verses from James, to post up lol Cool! :)

[chris4336]

And yet many Muslims seem to think that Christians can act in any way they like, without fear of God's judgement.
I wonder where that misunderstanding stems from?
Perhaps because they see people, who they know or assume to be Christians, act in ungodly ways?

Glo - Once I was speaking with a Muslim (from a Muslilm country) and he truly had NO IDEA that sex before marriage was prohibited in Christianity - I really think he thought it was allowed -if not encouraged.

Surely this does not speak for the whole Muslim population, but I would guess that there is a general belief in Muslim countries that
Western Values = Christian values, since the majority in the West are Christian (at least in name).

As for the faith vs works thing - Its my opinion that many Muslims get too bogged down in the "proper deeds" and sometimes miss the big picture. I mean, I understand the importance of honoring the prophet, but don't you think the time spent discussing what foot should be used to enter the bathroom with could be better spent in prayer?

But it goes both ways - A lot of Christians that I see in my country are living way differently than their religion perscribes. Maybe they have lots of "faith" (especially on Sunday) but they sure don't follow the religion, even the 10 commandments.

I realize I am making some very broad generalizations, but these are just my opinions.

[جوري]

Glo - Once I was speaking with a Muslim (from a Muslilm country) and he truly had NO IDEA that sex before marriage was prohibited in Christianity - I really think he thought it was allowed -if not encouraged..

Maybe he was trying to get fresh with you? I have a difficult time believing a Muslim person not understanding the true Christian or Jewish values... considering they came from the same source....... especially in a Muslim country where theology is part of the curriculum and obviously the prophets with their message would be taught therein.....

As for the faith vs works thing - Its my opinion that many Muslims get too bogged down in the "proper deeds" and sometimes miss the big picture. I mean, I understand the importance of honoring the prophet, but don't you think the time spent discussing what foot should be used to enter the bathroom with could be better spent in prayer?..

Islam is a way of life... it covers every facet...from how you brush your teeth to how to divide inheritance... yes some people obsess with a particular detail and can't move past it, the same way an obsessive compulsive might wash their hands three times before dinner or check on the lights 4 times before leaving the house.... a good balance was also advised by the prophet (PBUH) as well as The Prophet said: 'The religion (of Islam) is easy. No one ever made it difficult without it becoming too much for him. So avoid extremes and strike a balance, do the best you can and be cheerful, and seek Allah's help (through prayer) in the morning, and evening, and part of the night.' (Sahîh Bukhârî) ........ G-D gave us all a brain (hopefully) with which to discern the verses and apply them properly and use them to govern your life appropriately.....
peace!

[zanjabeela]

As for the faith vs works thing - Its my opinion that many Muslims get too bogged down in the "proper deeds" and sometimes miss the big picture. I mean, I understand the importance of honoring the prophet, but don't you think the time spent discussing what foot should be used to enter the bathroom with could be better spent in prayer?

And some Christians spend way too much time drawing pictures of Jesus and Mary (peace be upon them) when that time could be better spent on perfecting some Biblical principal or another: Do not steal, or Love thy neighbor, or whatever. So what? Each individual chooses what they wish in order to satisfactorily express their devotion to their faith.

Peace.

[glo]

Thank you all for your contributions.
It's a joy to read through this thread! :)

Unfortunately, I don't have much time to reply now, but perhaps will do so later.

May we all remember to love God today, and to do good deeds to others in honour and gratitude to Him! :statisfie

Peace

[Umar001]

I might aswell show some passages that I compared before I was Muslim, here's two:

The Good Deeds side by side with the Faith

James 2:26

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Also in Islaam, we see in various places that it tends to refer to 'Amenu wa Amilu Salihat' (sp?)

One example:

Surah Al Asr Verse 3

Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

The Reliance on Mercy In Order To Enter Paradise

Titus 3:5

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy....

We also see this in Islaam, in a hadeeth:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 70, Number 577 (extract)

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise." (i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet's companions) said, 'Not even you, O Allah's Apostle?' He said, "Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and mercy on me."

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi Glo, nice tread. First off, you are right there are a lot of similarities and the difference is more a question of different emphasis rather then opposition. However I feel this particular difference in emphasis is a vital one. It throws me every time I hear someone say: "believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) and you will be saved". Perhaps this is a simplistic interpretation on their part, and you do seem to imply that you don't agree 100% with that vision in previous post. But nonetheless I tend to see this view as a major contribution to the downfall of Christianity and to it's high tolerance to certain sin. And by this I don't just mean the things that Islam sees as sinful but Christianity sees as "ok"; but I mean the things that Christianity acknowledges as sinful yet is accepted, tolerated and widespread in Christian communities.

Hope you don't take this personal, no offense intended, just my two cents.

[glo]

No offence taken, Steve. :)

I did ask for people's opinions ...

I think responses from the Christians in this thread show that there is more to following Christ, than just saying the words.

From a very personal perspective I would say that once I understood what Jesus had done for my and everybody else's benefit and how much God loved me, I felt a great desire to please God and serve him in every way I could.
If he gave his life for me, I could do no other than dedicate my life to him in return ...

I very much agree with you on how much Christian values are watered down in 'Christian' societies nowadays.
I know many practising Christians who take Jesus' teachings very seriously indeed, and try to live by them ... but for the majority I will agree with your statement. :(

Peace

[Grace Seeker]

Hi Glo, nice tread. First off, you are right there are a lot of similarities and the difference is more a question of different emphasis rather then opposition. However I feel this particular difference in emphasis is a vital one. It throws me every time I hear someone say: "believe in Jesus (peace be upon him) and you will be saved". Perhaps this is a simplistic interpretation on their part, and you do seem to imply that you don't agree 100% with that vision in previous post. But nonetheless I tend to see this view as a major contribution to the downfall of Christianity and to it's high tolerance to certain sin. And by this I don't just mean the things that Islam sees as sinful but Christianity sees as "ok"; but I mean the things that Christianity acknowledges as sinful yet is accepted, tolerated and widespread in Christian communities.

Hope you don't take this personal, no offense intended, just my two cents.

hahhaha
Make that 4 cents, for basically I agree with you. Here is a story that happened in my church today.


A woman who works with our church's youth took them to a retreat where there was what we refer to as an "altar call". She reported to me that they all "went down front and got saved." Now, I don't have any problem with what happened, but the way she reported it strikes me as missing the point. They weren't saved in that moment. From a Christian theological understanding (and here this will differ from Islam) they aren't saved by what they do -- such as responding to an altar call, not even by their belief -- they and every other person in the world are saved by what Jesus did on the cross nearly 2000 years ago. The experience of that salvation however, awaits a person's acceptance of that work of Christ as being appropriated into their own individual lives. So, responding to an altar call is to say that you are going to live your life in response to what Jesus has done. (Now subsequent to that decision Christian theology, I think, returns to being similar to Islam....) So, one cannot rest on that single day's experience. One must live life according to what Jesus taught about how to live one's life. Salvation isn't achieved as a result of how we live our lives, but how we live our lives becomes either an affirmation or a denial that we have truly had a saving experience. In other words, as I said above, faith without works is dead.

[Keltoi]

The phrase "accept Jesus as your savior and you will be saved" or whatever variation one uses, means much more than the sentence itself. Accepting Christ involves much more than saying the words or even believing in them wholeheartedly. When I accepted Christ my whole outlook on life and my role in it was changed completely. I agree that many Christians fall short of Christ's teachings, but that is the case for everyone.

[Umar001]

A woman who works with our church's youth took them to a retreat where there was what we refer to as an "altar call". She reported to me that they all "went down front and got saved." Now, I don't have any problem with what happened, but the way she reported it strikes me as missing the point. They weren't saved in that moment. From a Christian theological understanding (and here this will differ from Islam) they aren't saved by what they do -- such as responding to an altar call, not even by their belief -- they and every other person in the world are saved by what Jesus did on the cross nearly 2000 years ago. The experience of that salvation however, awaits a person's acceptance of that work of Christ as being appropriated into their own individual lives. So, responding to an altar call is to say that you are going to live your life in response to what Jesus has done. (Now subsequent to that decision Christian theology, I think, returns to being similar to Islam....) So, one cannot rest on that single day's experience. One must live life according to what Jesus taught about how to live one's life. Salvation isn't achieved as a result of how we live our lives, but how we live our lives becomes either an affirmation or a denial that we have truly had a saving experience. In other words, as I said above, faith without works is dead.

I don't get what you mean, your saying that they were not saved by what they done, but by the action of Jesus 2000 years ago?
I didn't get alot of it actually lol.

Sorry.

Eesa.

[- Qatada -]

But if a christian believes in the salvation, but sins anyway - are they forgiven? I don't mean any offence, seriosly - i just don't understand, because if a person is forgiven because of the sacrifice, then they can actually commit sin and get away with it right? If the person doesn't do good, but believes - their still going to gain that salvation anyway, so why do that good?


Can anyone explain my misunderstanding? :)



Thanks.

[Keltoi]

But if a christian believes in the salvation, but sins anyway - are they forgiven? I don't mean any offence, seriosly - i just don't understand, because if a person is forgiven because of the sacrifice, then they can actually commit sin and get away with it right? If the person doesn't do good, but believes - their still going to gain that salvation anyway, so why do that good?


Can anyone explain my misunderstanding? :)



Thanks.

Christians believe that Christ died for the sins of the world, that doesn't mean you can commit sin and not be judged. John Calvin is largely responsible for the misconception by some that simply acknowledging Christ's sacrifice upon the cross ensures forgiveness and eternal salvation. One must live by Christ's teachings and follow the Word of God to achieve salvation, but since all men fall into the temptation of sin, Christ's trial upon the cross grants them forgiveness if they seek it. Simply saying "I believe in Christ" isn't enough unless one uses that forgiveness to continue on the path God has set out for them.

I hope that isn't more confusing, and I'm sure another Christian member can add to this or correct me if I'm missing something.

[glo]

hahhaha
Make that 4 cents, for basically I agree with you. Here is a story that happened in my church today.


A woman who works with our church's youth took them to a retreat where there was what we refer to as an "altar call". She reported to me that they all "went down front and got saved." Now, I don't have any problem with what happened, but the way she reported it strikes me as missing the point. They weren't saved in that moment. From a Christian theological understanding (and here this will differ from Islam) they aren't saved by what they do -- such as responding to an altar call, not even by their belief -- they and every other person in the world are saved by what Jesus did on the cross nearly 2000 years ago. The experience of that salvation however, awaits a person's acceptance of that work of Christ as being appropriated into their own individual lives. So, responding to an altar call is to say that you are going to live your life in response to what Jesus has done. (Now subsequent to that decision Christian theology, I think, returns to being similar to Islam....) So, one cannot rest on that single day's experience. One must live life according to what Jesus taught about how to live one's life. Salvation isn't achieved as a result of how we live our lives, but how we live our lives becomes either an affirmation or a denial that we have truly had a saving experience. In other words, as I said above, faith without works is dead.

I like your story Grace Seeker. :)

I often think that converting to Christianity (or any faith, I suppose) is the easy part.
But without nurture, encouragement and guidance from fellow-believers in how to grow and mature in the Christian walk, it is all too easy to fall away again!
Just as the parable of the sower describes ...

God bless.

[Grace Seeker]

I don't get what you mean, your saying that they were not saved by what they done, but by the action of Jesus 2000 years ago?
I didn't get alot of it actually lol.

Sorry.

Eesa.

Hopefully, this will also help Fi_Sabilliah.

As Keltoi said, the phrase, "accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior" or "being saved" has a lot more packed in it than appears in the words themselves. This is part of the problem in communicating. Religious language, which these phrases are loaded with, needs to be unpacked for those who are outside the community that uses them. Often, even those within the community use them sloppily.

(For instance the term "non-practicing Muslim" -- how can one be a follower of Islam, and yet describe one's self as to be non-practicing? The terms are diametrically in opposition to each other. Either you follow Islam or you don't. You may follow it poorly, but then you are not a non-practicing Muslim; you are instead a struggling to be obedient, but yet still practicing Muslim.)

OK. Back to your questions.

In the Christian faith, salavation is ultimately about the nature of one's relationship with God. That relationship begins with faith. Now faith, as Christianity uses this term, is NOT belief ABOUT, but belief IN something. For the Christian, faith then means not so much asserting any particular dogma (though we do have them), as much as it means learning to trust God with one's life. When one thinks of salvation in particular, there is a two-fold concept attached to it: (1) being saved from hell and thus admitted to heaven in the afterlife, and (2) being saved for God's purposes. This second concept is the works we have talked about already in this thread, so I won't go further into it. But the firsts concept leads some to see the Christian religion as just a form of fire insurance. And here is my point as far as the question regarding when someone is saved... Even if Christianity was nothing more than fire insurance, the premium payment on the policy that makes it good is not something that people can do for themselves. It is Jesus (pbuh) who makes the premium payment when he dies on the cross. That is what his sacrificial atonement is all about, paying the price for our sins. Anyone who wants to take advantage of this policy just has to decide they want to claim it (therein lies the faith part), but the premiums are already paid.

Now what about sins that Christians commit after becoming a Christian? Well, we believe that the Christ (i.e. God's anointed one, pbuh) died for all sins. His death on the cross paid the price for the sins I would eventually commit between the time I was born and would finally decide to follow him. Now, if he can die to pay the price for those sins in advance of me being alive to actual commit them, can he not also die to pay the price for sins I might commit after becoming a Christian? All sins is all sins. (I don't mean to be offensive by this statement, anymore than you have by yours, but I believe Jesus even died for the sins of those who don't and perhaps never will believe in him, such as a good Muslim like yourself.)

Now does this mean that it is ok to go on sinning? By no means!!!

To continue to commit sin would be to snub one's nose at God's and to walk away from point #2 above: We are saved for God's purposes. To walk away from one's responsibility to serve God's puroses in one's life is, in essence, to walk away from God. (Some Christians are of the opinion that once you give your life to God that God will never let you go so that it is impossible to walk away again, but I am not among that group. I think God always allows us to have free will over our lives, even to reject him after accepting him if one was to be so inclined.) To walk away from practicing one's faith, is to show that one is not continuing to live in a relationship with God whereby one responds by submitting to God's leading in one's life. (Thus we have a non-practicing Christian, which is just as much of a non-sequitor as a non-practicing Muslim.)

But, of course, individuals do in fact continue to sin after becoming a Christian, what of them? Does this mean that they are in fact no longer Christians, or no longer saved? Well, it depends. Are they sinning because they have rejected Christ, no longer believe, no longer wish to honor God with their lives? Then I guess those individuals are not (or perhaps never were) Christians. But the majority of Christians are people who do truly desire to live their lives for God, and yet stumble. They stumble because they do not understand. They stumble without even realizing it. They stumble for the same reason that Muslims struggle to be obedient, but are still understood as living a life of Islam. They stumble because following God is hard. That is when we recall that for the Christian faith is about more than asserting a certain set of beliefs that one assents to; faith is primarily about trust --a living, ongoing relationship with God. And we trust God to be merciful. Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Faith wears out in your heart as clothes wear out, so ask Allaah to renew the faith in your hearts." (My apologies for not having the reference for that, I just happened upon it in another's post.) So, we ask God to continually renew our faith and to keep us walking in his paths. But when we stumble, and have trouble getting back on the path, we know that it isn't up to us to get back soley by ourselves, for we are in an ongoing relationship with God who loves us and will guide us back to himself when we stray away. Thus, when we arrive at the door of paradise all Christians are in the position of Islam's understanding of the least or last in paradise. We don't deserve to be let in, but by God's great mercy he has still prepared a place for us and invites us in. It is in this light that we say that our sins are forgiven.

[Abdul Fattah]

So grace seeker, If I understand correctly you're saying:
Jesus (peace be upon him) died for the sins of mankind (astagfirAllah) and that will be sufficient against those sins unless they are hypocrite about it.

So doesn't that mean Jesus (peace be upon him) didn't die for the sins of all mankind but only for the sins of some. In fact you're saying he died for the sins of those who already deserved salvation. So if for these people there sins were already outweighed by their good deeds; doesn't that imply he died needlessly then? I don't mean to be offensive, I'm just having problems following your line of logic.

[Keltoi]

So grace seeker, If I understand correctly you're saying:
Jesus (peace be upon him) died for the sins of mankind (astagfirAllah) and that will be sufficient against those sins unless they are hypocrite about it.

So doesn't that mean Jesus (peace be upon him) didn't die for the sins of all mankind but only for the sins of some. In fact you're saying he died for the sins of those who already deserved salvation. So if for these people there sins were already outweighed by their good deeds; doesn't that imply he died needlessly then? I don't mean to be offensive, I'm just having problems following your line of logic.

I'm not going to speak for graceseeker, but no that isn't the belief. To understand this fully you have to go back to the sins of Adam. Christ's suffering on the cross was to give forgiveness to mankind for his sinful nature. That forgiveness doesn't equate to a free hand. It opens the path for forgiveness of sin and eternal salvation as Christ took upon himself the cost of the sinful nature of man. In other words, it opens the door to salvation for those who choose to seek it.

[Abdul Fattah]

I'm not going to speak for graceseeker, but no that isn't the belief. To understand this fully you have to go back to the sins of Adam. Christ's suffering on the cross was to give forgiveness to mankind for his sinful nature. That forgiveness doesn't equate to a free hand. It opens the path for forgiveness of sin and eternal salvation as Christ took upon himself the cost of the sinful nature of man. In other words, it opens the door to salvation for those who choose to seek it.

So what you are saying is that Christ only died for the sin we were given at birth and had no choice over either way. So he died for those sins that we weren't really responsible for in the first place.

[Keltoi]

So what you are saying is that Christ only died for the sin we were given at birth and had no choice over either way. So he died for those sins that we weren't really responsible for in the first place.

For the sins of man...meaning the sins that have been committed and the sin that will be committed.

[Grace Seeker]

So what you are saying is that Christ only died for the sin we were given at birth and had no choice over either way. So he died for those sins that we weren't really responsible for in the first place.

Some people won't like this answer, but in the very simplest terms, Yes.

Of course, I want to affirm that he died for all sins, but it is especially important to realize that he died for this original sin.


It is true that we are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve. But that doesn't mean we don't pay the price for it. What happened in the beginning was that God created us to live in paradise with him from the very beginning (I'm giving my understanding of Jewish/Christian version, not the Islam version, I know there are some differences) and for us to have fellowship with God. I believe that even the Qur'an teaches about people being made in the image of God. (Am I correct.) As God isn't a corporeal being, but is spirit, I don't think that means image like one could take a picture of God and say we are in God's image. If that was so then we would all look exactly alike. That which is in us that is different from all the other animals is that which God did for us, the Bible says that God breathed life into us. It is the very spirit (ruach the Jewish word for breath and for Spirit are the same) of God which then animates our lives. But when Adam and Eve sinned they were cast out of this paradise and they were told that they would die. Now, of course we know they didn't die a physical death at that time. Eventually the would and some think that this death was just delayed. Well, perhaps in part, except the Bible says that they would die in the day in which they disobeyed God. Thus I see sin which separates us from God as a type of spiritual death. And all of us are born inheritors of people who had no spiritual life in them to pass on to us. Thus, while it is not our fault, we still pay the price for what Adam and Eve did in that we are born without this inborn connection to God that Adam and Eve were created with. That is the sin which Keltoi speaks of.

And we never will be whole persons until we are made whole by God, for we cannot make ourselves whole. That is the reason for the substitutionary atonement spoken of before.

One other thing, which I see in your question that would naturally be confusing, and I am sorry I did not make it clear before. Christianity and Islam have a different view of why one should be saved. Christianity complete rejects the idea that one can ever earn salvation. That is because, even a if a person was born today and never sinned, even if they went through life doing only good deeds and worship God only and never doubted and always praised God in all things in life and introduced many others to God and never even made an accidental mistake or an error in judgment, such a person is still not good enough for God. The reason is the because of that married image of God they inherited from their parents.

I like to express it this way, there are sins (small "s") and there is SIN (big "S"). The small "s" sins are little sins, like telling a white lie, speeding on the highway, committing murder. (Yeah, I know, it looks strange to put murder on par with speeding, but a sin is a sin is a sin, and any and every sin is an act of disobedience. Human beings say that these and big and small, but to a perfect God either you got a 100% or the test or you don't. If you got 99.999999%, guess what, you failed the test. But each of these little sins are a product of something much bigger going on on the inside of us, and that is a SIN (big "S") nature that is at work in us. That is we would like to think that we are in charge of our own lives, can make decisions for ourselves, can decide what is good and bad, right and wrong. In other words we think of our Selves (there is that big "S" again) as if the Self were God. This SIN nature that focuses on the Self in place of God is a consequence of that original sin that took place when Adam and Eve listened to Satan and disobeyed God thinking that they would gain knowledge to be able to distinguish between good and evil like God. The truth is Satan lied, for only God can truly make any of those decisions. Those who live in submission to the will of God in their lives have to give up Self will in order practice God's will. Because, as you are well aware: Allah knows best.

This personal relationship with God that I have been talking about above comes down to learning to trust God with one's life. That means we in essence die to self to find new life (spiritual life) in God. In this way we identify with Christ's death and resurrection, in that we too die to our own will and say not my will, but thine be done. And the sin nature is put to death and we have a new birth of God's spirit breathed into our lives raising us to knew life again, only this time it is really his life that is giving life to us. All of this is on the spiritual plane, not the physical, but I believe the spiritual plane is as real as anything we can sense with our 5 senses. Thus it is (and this is going to sound really strange if this is the first time you have ever heard this), Christians actually enter into eternal life before they die. We once again have communion, fellowship with God in this world. And it is that connection, that fellowship in which God gives life to us that preserves us unto eternal life.

Now, my guess is that I created more questions than I answered. I'm sorry about that. You asked a very good question. One that many Christians simply take for granted and don't bother to think through. But I'm glad you did. So, if you want to pick my answer apart, I won't consider it an attack, just more of your honest searchig to understand, and I really appreciate that in your previous posts.

[Abdul Fattah]

Some people won't like this answer, but in the very simplest terms, Yes.
Of course, I want to affirm that he died for all sins, but it is especially important to realize that he died for this original sin.
It is true that we are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve. But that doesn't mean we don't pay the price for it.

Doesn't that strike you as unfair? Having to pay for something you had neither choice nor responsibility over?

What happened in the beginning was that God created us to live in paradise with him from the very beginning (I'm giving my understanding of Jewish/Christian version, not the Islam version, I know there are some differences) and for us to have fellowship with God. I believe that even the Qur'an teaches about people being made in the image of God. (Am I correct.)

Not quite, in the Islamic teachings we don't believe man was created to the image of God. We believe God is unlike anything we can Imagen. And to appoint characteristics to him is to do him injustice. For example: If you say God has ears like man, then you are suggesting he can only notice a select range of frequencies and not all vibrations. If you Say God has eyes like mankind you imply that God can only see visible light. Mankind is limited in almost everything by nature, whereas God is omnipotent. The only thing we do know about God are his 99 names which each hint to some of his characteristics.

Thus I see sin which separates us from God as a type of spiritual death. And all of us are born inheritors of people who had no spiritual life in them to pass on to us. Thus, while it is not our fault, we still pay the price for what Adam and Eve did in that we are born without this inborn connection to God that Adam and Eve were created with. That is the sin which Keltoi speaks of.

Interesting theory; I disagree with it; but even if it were correct, that still doesn't answer my question does it? If this were the case it still would be unjust of God to first create us with original sin, without a choice over it, and then hold us accountable for it. In that context one would say that dying for the (origenal) sin of mankind is then only God's way to set earlier mistakes right. I know that probably sounds like blasphemy; there is really no offense intended. But to me the story just doesn't add up. I see God as the most just, the omniscient who is not bound over time and hence has no before and after. Such an entity doesn't "change his mind" or "makes mistakes".

One other thing, which I see in your question that would naturally be confusing, and I am sorry I did not make it clear before. Christianity and Islam have a different view of why one should be saved. Christianity complete rejects the idea that one can ever earn salvation. That is because, even a if a person was born today and never sinned, even if they went through life doing only good deeds and worship God only and never doubted and always praised God in all things in life and introduced many others to God and never even made an accidental mistake or an error in judgment, such a person is still not good enough for God. The reason is the because of that married image of God they inherited from their parents.

Actually in Islam we believe the same thing, that even the most pious person his good deeds are not enough to deserve heaven, as it is a mercy from God. However, in Islam we also believe that God, the most mercyfull and forgiven sets the bar lower.

I like to express it this way, there are sins (small "s") and there is SIN (big "S"). The small "s" sins are little sins, like telling a white lie, speeding on the highway, committing murder. (Yeah, I know, it looks strange to put murder on par with speeding, but a sin is a sin is a sin, and any and every sin is an act of disobedience. Human beings say that these and big and small, but to a perfect God either you got a 100% or the test or you don't. If you got 99.999999%, guess what, you failed the test.

Again I get the feeling of unjust treatment. Are you saying one small sin weighs up unto thousands of goods deeds? Ibn Abbas, radiyallahu 'anhu, reported that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, related from his Lord (glorified and exalted be He): "Verily Allah has recorded the good deeds and the evil deeds." Then he clarified that: "Whosoever intends to do a good deed but does not do it, Allah records it with Himself as a complete good deed; but if he intends it and does it, Allah records it with Himself as ten good deeds, up to seven hundred times, or more than that. But if he intends to do an evil deed and does not do it, Allah records it with Himself as a complete good deed; but if he intends it and does it, Allah records it down as one single evil deed."
(Boekhaarie and Moeslim)

Now, my guess is that I created more questions than I answered. I'm sorry about that. You asked a very good question. One that many Christians simply take for granted and don't bother to think through. But I'm glad you did. So, if you want to pick my answer apart, I won't consider it an attack, just more of your honest searchig to understand, and I really appreciate that in your previous posts.

that's good to know because I was afraid that I was coming on a little bit to strong. Btw, the parts of your text that I didn't quote or go into were parts where in my humble opinion Islam more or less agrees or has similar teachings.

[Grace Seeker]

Now, my guess is that I created more questions than I answered. I'm sorry about that. You asked a very good question. One that many Christians simply take for granted and don't bother to think through. But I'm glad you did. So, if you want to pick my answer apart, I won't consider it an attack, just more of your honest searchig to understand, and I really appreciate that in your previous posts.

that's good to know because I was afraid that I was coming on a little bit to strong. Btw, the parts of your text that I didn't quote or go into were parts where in my humble opinion Islam more or less agrees or has similar teachings.

That's great!! I'm glad to see that there are some things on which Islam and Christianity are similar. Of course there are places where they differ or they would be one religion, not two different ones. And I certainly don't mind that you highlight how you perceive those differences, I'm trying to learn and understand as well.

When I present my views in answer to your questions, I am trying to avoid doing it in a confrontational tone. If I fail in that effort, please, make me aware of it. I'm just trying to present how Christians understand these matters as form of clarification, leaving for you to use that information in whatever way is valuable for you to process it.

[Pygoscelis]

Of course the bigger question is why was Jesus' death required to bring salvation to man.

This is where the trinity, in my opinion, really really confuses matters.

Without the trinity you've got Jesus giving his life for Mankind, convincing God to spare humanity. Its a coherent story and show's Jesus to be a truly heroic figure.

But once Jesus IS God, you've got God sacrificing himself to himself to convince himself to change his mind. It loses coherency on the face of it and complex explanations become required. It just begs the question of why he couldn't have just forgiven man without the elaborate ritual that was the Jesus sacrifice.

[Umar001]

Just sitting here, trying to work out, Original Sin, and Faith and Works, seem like quite a different topic, which might interwine at some points but very different to the reason for the thread.

Anyhow, peace.

[Grace Seeker]

Just sitting here, trying to work out, Original Sin, and Faith and Works, seem like quite a different topic, which might interwine at some points but very different to the reason for the thread.

Agreed.

The place they interwine is in thinking of Christ's sacrificial death as Christ's "work" on the cross by which humankind is saved. Christians believe in this (Christ's) work and not their own for salvation -- that is they trust that because of Christ's sacrificial death, atonement for sin has been paid and there is no more need for it to be paid, nor can it be paid any other way. Thus it is by (their) faith, not (their) works, that Christians come into a saving relationship with God.


In response to Pygoscelis, I have to admit that sometimes I ask that very same question, "God, why was this the way you planned it?" And I don't always have the answers. But I know that from the beginning it appears that God sought atonment for sins through blood sacrifice. (So it isn't about trying to convince God to spare humanity, it is about paying the price on their behalf, when they were/are incapable of doing so for themselves.

Now, I understand that many people find the concept of blood sacrifice to be offensive, and I suppose it is to the modern mind. But we see this in all three of the monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In Judaism, the temple rituals all centered around sacrifices. Muslims will recall that even before Jews built the temple God called people to make sacrifice to him. It was in being obedient to carry this out that Abraham (pbuh) was prepared to sacrifice his own son. The 2 central celebration of Judaism are the Passover and Yom Kippor, in which sacrifice plays a central role in both. This is all part of the tradition into which Jesus (pbuh) was born and becomes the fulfillment of. Christians understand Christ as the passover lamb, as the lamb of Yom Kippor who takes away the sin of the world.

Why? I don't know. Surely God could have determined that all one had to do was to say "I'm sorry." and everything would be alright. Perhaps God could simply tell us to hug and make-up? But that isn't the way it was worked out. Later Christians reflecting back on their faith in light of the Jewish practices from which they came wrote: "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Hebrews 9:22)"

So, Christ's sacrifice pays the price for this original sin, and all subsequent sin. Christians accept this to be true by faith, they no longer believe in the necessity for future sacrifices for Christ's sacrifice is sufficient once for all and does not need to be repeated. Thus our works now are in response as an offering of praise and thanksgiving and not a means to any other end.

[Pygoscelis]

It is refreshing to see a Christian not hide from the dark underbelly of the religion (as I see it from a secular 21st century perspective), blood sacrifice and all.

[Keltoi]

It is refreshing to see a Christian not hide from the dark underbelly of the religion (as I see it from a secular 21st century perspective), blood sacrifice and all.

What exactly would be the "dark underbelly"?

[Grace Seeker]

Doesn't that strike you as unfair? Having to pay for something you had neither choice nor responsibility over?

Is it fair that some children have rich and prosperous parents and others poor ones?

Is it fair that some children are born to parents with mutated genes for diseases like sickle cell anemia or diabetes that they pass on to their own children?

Is it fair or unfair that some people are born into an Islamic household, raised by pious Muslim parents and learn about Muhammed (pbuh) and Allah (swt) even before they learn to talk? While others are born into households completely devoid of such knowledge, or worse prejuidiced against it, and are then held accountable for not accepting Allah and the teachings of the Prophet?

There are many consequences that children suffer because of events that they have no choice nor responsibility over, but are simply the results of the decisions of the parents passed down to them.

Not quite, in the Islamic teachings we don't believe man was created to the image of God. We believe God is unlike anything we can Imagen. And to appoint characteristics to him is to do him injustice. For example: If you say God has ears like man, then you are suggesting he can only notice a select range of frequencies and not all vibrations. If you Say God has eyes like mankind you imply that God can only see visible light. Mankind is limited in almost everything by nature, whereas God is omnipotent. The only thing we do know about God are his 99 names which each hint to some of his characteristics.

I did NOT say that God is created in our image. I said that we are created in God's. And I specifically said that this was NOT in reference to our physical being.

Interesting theory; I disagree with it; but even if it were correct, that still doesn't answer my question does it? If this were the case it still would be unjust of God to first create us with original sin, without a choice over it, and then hold us accountable for it.

I did NOT say that God created us with original sin. God created Adam and Even without any sin. They disobeyed. The consequences of their disobedience are something that we still experience today. We are born inheritors of that sin, because Adam and Eve were so marred by that sin, that one might think of it as changing their genetic make-up so that we would all inherit the marred image of God. (BTW, I know that genetics doesn't work this way.) Of course we are not talking about a physical or biological change; we are talking about a spiritual change. Adam and Eve were dead spiritually. They had no Spirit from God alive in them to pass on to their children, nor would their children have any to pass on to their children or their children's children.

In that context one would say that dying for the (origenal) sin of mankind is then only God's way to set earlier mistakes right.

Exactly.

I know that probably sounds like blasphemy; there is really no offense intended. But to me the story just doesn't add up. I see God as the most just, the omniscient who is not bound over time and hence has no before and after. Such an entity doesn't "change his mind" or "makes mistakes".

Except that it wasn't God's mistake. It was Adam's.

Is it a mistake that Allah created people who, in Islam's view, are capable of choosing to not give honor and praise to God? (Rhetorical question) No. Same thing. In the Christian understanding, God created Adam with a capacity to choose to not obey. He didn't. Everyone downstream from him is subject to the consequences of that decision.

Again I get the feeling of unjust treatment. Are you saying one small sin weighs up unto thousands of goods deeds?

We don't weigh sins and righteous deeds as if on a scale where they counter balance each other. We don't keep a ledger sheet to see if you are more good or more bad. We understand that the call to be righteous is a call to perfection. You are either perfect or imperfect. You either have no sin in your life, or you have sin in your life.

For instance, I assume you have probably at one time or another bought some brand new clothes. Let us say a white shirt. Now that shirt gets worn and gets some dirt on it. You wash it to remove the dirt and it appears for all intents and purposes to be clean. But if you were to compare that shirt to a brand new shirt, you would notice that it is not quite as bright, not quite as white as a brand new shirt. You can wash it 1000 times, and it will never be white as new again. Christians believe that only the blood of Jesus can get the stain of sin completely out.

Ibn Abbas, radiyallahu 'anhu, reported that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, related from his Lord (glorified and exalted be He): "Verily Allah has recorded the good deeds and the evil deeds." Then he clarified that: "Whosoever intends to do a good deed but does not do it, Allah records it with Himself as a complete good deed; but if he intends it and does it, Allah records it with Himself as ten good deeds, up to seven hundred times, or more than that. But if he intends to do an evil deed and does not do it, Allah records it with Himself as a complete good deed; but if he intends it and does it, Allah records it down as one single evil deed."
(Boekhaarie and Moeslim)

I have no disagreement with that.

However, please also be aware, for the Christian good deeds are meaningless toward the goal of earning God's favor. As important as right actions are (and they are very important) human beings cannot earn God's favor by what we do or don't do. Faith without works is dead, but works by themselves are powerless and without merit. Good deeds are not done to earn God's favor, but as an expression of thankfulness to God for his mercy.

[dougmusr]

"Whosoever intends to do a good deed but does not do it, Allah records it with Himself as a complete good deed;

It would be interesting to understand what the meaning of the word "intends" might be in the Quranic passage. In the parable below, it was the action that proved the intent. In any case, the parable below indicates that entrance to heaven is given based on faith.

Mt 21:28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go, work today in my vineyard.'
29 "He answered and said, 'I will not,' but afterward he regretted it and went.
30 "Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, 'I go, sir,' but he did not go.
31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to Him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.
32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

[dougmusr]

The Mt 21:28 passage also points out why I believe that it is faith and not works that determines salvation. Take the first son. The parable makes it clear that the first son had no intent of doing the father's will, but later changed his mind, ie: repented, and did it. This is not unlike mankind when it comes to doing God's will. If salvation were based on works, when the trumpet sounds and Christ returns, some of us will be judged on a bad day, and some on a good day. It is my opinion that God has made salvation an objective Yes/No test, rather than a subjective works evaluation. In the judgement, God will ask if we accepted his gift of forgiveness through Christ. We will either answer Yes or No. If we answer No, we have chosen the subjective test. The problem is that the standard is God's perfection. There will be no grading on the curve.

[snakelegs]

since both islam and christianity believe that you must be a muslim (unless you've never been exposed to islam) or christian in order to go to heaven, it seems obvious to me that faith is more important than works in both religions. islam strikes me as somewhat more "action oriented" than christianity tho....

[dougmusr]

I also tend to agree with the concept that all are responsible before God for their own sin. To me the concept of original sin means we are all born with a tendency to sin which we inherited from Adam. I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path.

Ez:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge'? 3 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die... 19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.
20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

[snakelegs]

I also tend to agree with the concept that all are responsible before God for their own sin. To me the concept of original sin means we are all born with a tendency to sin which we inherited from Adam. I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path.

doesn't this put you in the position of a judge?
wouldn't this be better left to god?

[dougmusr]

doesn't this put you in the position of a judge?
wouldn't this be better left to god?

By saying all manking has chosen sin, I include myself as well, and I don;t think of this as judgement. The way I see it, judgement means the trial is over and it is time to set the punishment. I would say that refusing to share the Gospel (good news) with a person is more an act of judgement because I am saying that the person is not worthy of being saved and receiving God's forgiveness.

[Grace Seeker]

doesn't this put you in the position of a judge?
wouldn't this be better left to god?

If I read dougmusr's remarks in context of his other writings, he is not saying that he personally judges each person a sinner, but rather... as he understands what God has revealed about human beings, that all are sinners.

Though Doug did not quote any specific verses there are a number he could have referred to which articulate that concept.

[snakelegs]

this seems like a judgement to me:
"I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path."
unless you are saying that only christ was sinless - that would make sense to me in view of your religion.
so are you saying that other than believe in christ, the rest if us have taken the sinful path or are you saying that christ was the only sinless being?
i have managed to confuse myself now!

[Pygoscelis]

Well aside from humanity having to pay for the sins of forefathers (which is one of my top objections to christianity being moral, another being Jesus being able to 'pay' for the sins of somebody else) I always found the biggest unfairness being to the snake in the garden of eden.

Was it or was it not Satan? If it wasn't, then you are saying snakes could talk back then, which is silly. If it was Satan in the form of a snake then why are snakes punished to crawl on their bellies as it says in Genesis?

[- Qatada -]

Hi snakelegs. :)


The reason we believe and have faith is simple. We believe that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and due to this belief - our actions support our testification (i.e. if we doing it sincerely to please Allaah or not, and only Allaah can judge that.)

Simply stating that one believes has to be proven through action, and by obeying Allaah and His messengers - we're showing that we do believe and submit to the Creator.



I'll give an example of how both aspects are important; if a person says he believes in the testification to be a muslim [there is none worthy of worship except Allaah] - but doesn't obey Allaah in any way, is the person really living upto the testification they just said?


It can also go to the opposite extreme, where a person does lots of 'good deeds' but it turns out that the person only said [there is none worthy of worship except Allaah] with their mouth (instead of heart) in order to join the muslims - maybe to spy on them [i.e. a warfare tactic from the opposition.] This person acts all good infront of the people, he even does alot of 'good deeds' - but this person only did it, not for Allaah's sake, but for the peoples sake, maybe for cash, respect etc.

This person didn't have the faith, but it seemed as if he had alot of 'good deeds' - the weakness in that was that he never believed, he never had faith.

There were some people like this at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) who would support the enemy while pretending to be muslims, these people are known as hypocrites [munafiqeen.]




So you see how faith and good deeds come hand in hand, a person who does good and doesn't have faith sincerely for Allaah alone is doing it for another gain, most likely some worldly gain, so Allaah will bless them in this world with something for their good, but they will have no good left for them in the hereafter.

Instead - these people on the day of judgement will be told to get their reward off the thing they did their deed for, so if someone did something for prophet Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them) - they will have to go to him for reward, if they did it for a stone idol, they will have to ask for reward from that idol, if they did it for Allaah Almighty's sake alone, their reward is with Allaah. But remember that every soul is dependant on Allaah alone, and no-one can enter paradise if they associate partners with Allaah Almighty.



If you got any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. :)



Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.

[Umar001]

Hi Snakelegs,

islam strikes me as somewhat more "action oriented" than christianity tho....

With regards to the above, I was just wondering, if you were to compare Islaam and the things prescribed in the Old Testaments, such as the laws and so forth, would you then find that the Law of God in the Old Testament is much more action orientated than that of the new?

[Umar001]

Hi Dougmusr

I also tend to agree with the concept that all are responsible before God for their own sin. To me the concept of original sin means we are all born with a tendency to sin which we inherited from Adam. I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path.

Ezikiel 18 beautiful chapter (I hope am correct it is 18 right ;D)

I would just like to ask, so you do not believe or hold the view as some others might that humans are born with sin on them, but rather that we are only just born with the inclination towards sin?

[Umar001]

Is it fair that some children have rich and prosperous parents and others poor ones?

Is it fair that some children are born to parents with mutated genes for diseases like sickle cell anemia or diabetes that they pass on to their own children?

Is it fair or unfair that some people are born into an Islamic household, raised by pious Muslim parents and learn about Muhammed (pbuh) and Allah (swt) even before they learn to talk? While others are born into households completely devoid of such knowledge, or worse prejuidiced against it, and are then held accountable for not accepting Allah and the teachings of the Prophet?

There are many consequences that children suffer because of events that they have no choice nor responsibility over, but are simply the results of the decisions of the parents passed down to them.

I will just focous on this for now since I see that your having an interesting conversation with someone else, coming to the point, I do not see how you can compare paying back to humans and paying back to God.

You see, the examples you have brought forward are not sufficient you said: "Is it fair that some children are born to parents with mutated genes for diseases like sickle cell anemia or diabetes that they pass on to their own children?" This is a test a person born into such family does not have a sin on them nor does that person have to pay back for something, rather it is a test from God, and they will be rewarded accordingly.

On the other hand, the concept that a son has to pay for the sin of the father is not a test, its not a matter of the son making a choice and sinning because of that choice, it is a thing already decreed, it is SIN on the son, which is different to a mere test.

Also "and are then held accountable for not accepting Allah and the teachings of the Prophet?" Again noone is going to be held accountable for something they did not know, Allah does not send people to hell without sending them a message.

What you have brought forward are tests, and according to the tests and the actions taken by the person, the person either is rewarded or commits a sin. This is totally different from the concept of having to pay for sins of others, where the person has to take on the sins of someone's elses failed test.

I hope that makes sense :)

Eesa

[Grace Seeker]

What you have brought forward are tests, and according to the tests and the actions taken by the person, the person either is rewarded or commits a sin. This is totally different from the concept of having to pay for sins of others, where the person has to take on the sins of someone's elses failed test.

Well, I disagree that things like sickle cell anemia are meant as tests, but that is not relevant to the question.

I agree that a test is totally different from the concept of having to pay for the sins of others. And what we have in Christianity's concept of original sin is in fact people having to live with the consequences of another's sin, in addition to his/her own. You do not think it is fair. And do not think a just God would do this. I, on the other hand, do not think that even passing a test merits anyone a reward. And I am greatful that God does not require that we pass any test in order to gain his acceptance. We are of different minds as to what God's expectations are. That makes sense as we are also of different religions.

[Grace Seeker]

this seems like a judgement to me:
"I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path."
unless you are saying that only christ was sinless - that would make sense to me in view of your religion.
so are you saying that other than believe in christ, the rest if us have taken the sinful path or are you saying that christ was the only sinless being?
i have managed to confuse myself now!

I think these two thoughts are synonymous:

other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path.

and

christ was the only sinless being

[Abdul Fattah]

Is it fair that some children have rich and prosperous parents and others poor ones?

Is it fair that some children are born to parents with mutated genes for diseases like sickle cell anemia or diabetes that they pass on to their own children?

Yeah defenitly fair if you believe that the ones who were less lucky here will get compensated in the next life. But in the question I posed that was not the case, in fact it was the opposite. The examples you say is unfairness in this world, which is trivial, after all life is a test. The unfairness I spoke of was unfairness towards the afterlife.

Is it fair or unfair that some people are born into an Islamic household, raised by pious Muslim parents and learn about Muhammed (pbuh) and Allah (swt) even before they learn to talk? While others are born into households completely devoid of such knowledge, or worse prejuidiced against it, and are then held accountable for not accepting Allah and the teachings of the Prophet?

Yeah, because each of them will be judged by different values. The ones who have harder questions on their test (=life on earth) will have more points for a good answer. The final judgment will not be a simple summation of deeds. There are many factors that play an important role, for example every act will be judged by it's intention. Someone doing good in a difficult environment will reap greater reward then someone doing good in an easier environment. In other words all these unequal factors will be taken into consideration.

I did NOT say that God is created in our image. I said that we are created in God's. And I specifically said that this was NOT in reference to our physical being.

Yes, well even that we cannot agree to, if Allah subhana wa ta'ala is like nothing we can Imagen, then that means he is not like us, and then that means we are not like him either. Those just follow up logically from one another.

I did NOT say that God created us with original sin. God created Adam and Even without any sin. They disobeyed. The consequences of their disobedience are something that we still experience today. We are born inheritors of that sin, because Adam and Eve were so marred by that sin, that one might think of it as changing their genetic make-up so that we would all inherit the marred image of God. (BTW, I know that genetics doesn't work this way.) Of course we are not talking about a physical or biological change; we are talking about a spiritual change. Adam and Eve were dead spiritually.

that doesn't change a lot to the story right? Either way you put it, it still comes down to people of earth being created with sins that they had no choice over and no responsibility over.

Except that it wasn't God's mistake. It was Adam's.

Well Adam (peace be upon him) might have made a mistake, but that still doesn't make him responsible for creating the rest of mankind with original sin, that was still gods decision right?

Is it a mistake that Allah created people who, in Islam's view, are capable of choosing to not give honor and praise to God? (Rhetorical question) No. Same thing. In the Christian understanding, God created Adam with a capacity to choose to not obey. He didn't. Everyone downstream from him is subject to the consequences of that decision.

Well there's a huge difference giving people choice is a neutral act, and hard to portrait as mistake. But creating people as sinful by default and then making up for it does look like a mistake.

We don't weigh sins and righteous deeds as if on a scale where they counter balance each other. We don't keep a ledger sheet to see if you are more good or more bad. We understand that the call to be righteous is a call to perfection. You are either perfect or imperfect. You either have no sin in your life, or you have sin in your life.

So next to being unfair, wouldn't you also say this comes across a lil bit severe?

For instance, I assume you have probably at one time or another bought some brand new clothes. Let us say a white shirt. Now that shirt gets worn and gets some dirt on it. You wash it to remove the dirt and it appears for all intents and purposes to be clean. But if you were to compare that shirt to a brand new shirt, you would notice that it is not quite as bright, not quite as white as a brand new shirt. You can wash it 1000 times, and it will never be white as new again. Christians believe that only the blood of Jesus can get the stain of sin completely out.

Yeah but that doesn't mean you throw away the shirt because it isn't brand new anymore, it's still a good shirt that serves it purpose. It is just no longer perfect, but thatdoesn't mean it's a bad shirt right?

[Abdul Fattah]

@dougmusr

It would be interesting to understand what the meaning of the word "intends" might be in the Quranic passage. In the parable below, it was the action that proved the intent. In any case, the parable below indicates that entrance to heaven is given based on faith.

Mt 21:28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go, work today in my vineyard.'
29 "He answered and said, 'I will not,' but afterward he regretted it and went.
30 "Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, 'I go, sir,' but he did not go.
31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to Him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you.
32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw it, you did not afterward relent and believe him.

First of, small technicality: this was a hadeeth (authentic quote from the prophet peace be upon him which has been passed trough a known and checked line of quoters) not a part from the qur'an. No harm done, just my responsibility to point that out :)

Anyway, to answer your question the intention must be a sincere one. But that doesn't mean that one gets to do the deed. People can intend and plan one thing but unforeseen circumstances might drive them somewhere else. And indeed a deed defenitly proves the intention, but that doesn't mean an intention is disproved by the lack of the action. An extreme example: I could intend to cross the street but never get there because I got hit by a car.

@snakelegs,

since both islam and christianity believe that you must be a muslim (unless you've never been exposed to islam) or christian in order to go to heaven, it seems obvious to me that faith is more important than works in both religions. islam strikes me as somewhat more "action oriented" than christianity tho....

Well the matter is a lil bit more complex. Being a Muslim by definition means submitting to the guidance of Allah subhana wa ta'la that was given us trough prophet muhammed peace be upon him. So this "must" as you put it speaks more in favor of deeds rather then thoughts. Even satan believes in the existence of God, but just believing that doesn't make him a Muslim.

[snakelegs]

@snakelegs,

Well the matter is a lil bit more complex. Being a Muslim by definition means submitting to the guidance of Allah subhana wa ta'la that was given us trough prophet muhammed peace be upon him. So this "must" as you put it speaks more in favor of deeds rather then thoughts. Even satan believes in the existence of God, but just believing that doesn't make him a Muslim.

hi steve,
yes i realize that i was over simplifying. i do realize that actions are also extremely important in islam. yet, i can do all the good things humanly possible and i will still go to hell, as a non-muslim.
thanks for your clarification.

[Abdul Fattah]

hi steve,
yes i realize that i was over simplifying. i do realize that actions are also extremely important in islam. yet, i can do all the good things humanly possible and i will still go to hell, as a non-muslim.
thanks for your clarification.

I'm not sure about that. Allah subhana wa ta'ala can have mercy on whoever he choses. wheter or not he will use that mercy for non Muslims I do not know. I think some scholars will say it's not likely. But in the end all we can say is: Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows and we do not.

[snakelegs]

Allah subhana wa ta'ala knows and we do not.

i agree!

[Umar001]

Well, I disagree that things like sickle cell anemia are meant as tests, but that is not relevant to the question.

I agree that a test is totally different from the concept of having to pay for the sins of others. And what we have in Christianity's concept of original sin is in fact people having to live with the consequences of another's sin, in addition to his/her own.

So you do not hold the view at all that you or I or a baby has sin upon him due to the actions of the people around him, but only that the baby is placed in certain situations because of the people's sin around him, but this placement is not actually any sin on the person or baby?

I, on the other hand, do not think that even passing a test merits anyone a reward. And I am greatful that God does not require that we pass any test in order to gain his acceptance. We are of different minds as to what God's expectations are. That makes sense as we are also of different religions.

Actually, the accepting the sacrafise of Christ maybe seen as a 'test' and if one does accept this sacrafise the person attains, by the Mercy of God salvation. So in reality don't you think that a person has options to face, whether to do A or B, just like a test, and then he chooses, if he chooses one, then he is rewarded and will go paradise, by God's grace, and if he chooses B he's name will not be in the book of life and be cast into the lake of burning sulphur. Am I going wrong somewhere?

Thank you for your patience, Eesa.

[dougmusr]

this seems like a judgement to me:
"I would go further and say that other than Christ, all mankind has taken the sinful path."
unless you are saying that only christ was sinless - that would make sense to me in view of your religion.
so are you saying that other than believe in christ, the rest if us have taken the sinful path or are you saying that christ was the only sinless being?
i have managed to confuse myself now!

I am saying that Christ was the only sinless being. All of the rest of us, me included, have taken the sinful path.

[Grace Seeker]

Oh, the problems of religious language and culture preconceptions.....

So you do not hold the view at all that you or I or a baby has sin upon him due to the actions of the people around him, but only that the baby is placed in certain situations because of the people's sin around him, but this placement is not actually any sin on the person or baby?

I am sorry, I am completely lost as to what you are asking here. I am not sure that you understood me. I know I don't understand you. You want to try again.

For me the problem is in your choice of words: "so-and-so has sin upon him", "sin around him", and "sin on the person". These are not the words I use to talk about sin, so I don't know whether to agree, disagree, or what. I say that a person "has sinned" (actively) or "has sin in his/her life" (passive), but never that it is "placed upon" (passive) as the recipient of another's action. Even with regard to original sin, I don't mean that I receive Adam's sin. I am not guilty of what Adam did. Rather, I mean that Adam's sin, spoiled things for everyone. That Adam broke the perfect world God made. (Going back to my analogy...) And a thousand washings don't make it clean, nor do a 1000 generations eliminate the consequence of it. No, we don't throw the shirt away, we still wear it, it is the only shirt we have. But we can't say that the shirt is in the condition God wanted us to receive it in. God wants us to wear this brand new and perfectly clean shirt when we are called to heaven. And while it might look clean to us, when God looks at us, he can tell the difference.

The good news, from a Christian perspective, is that for reasons entirely known to God alone, God has decided to accept us as if we were wearing a clean shirt all those who seek admission based not on their own righteousness (or clean shirt), but on that of Jesus. It is as if we arrive at the door of heaven, and Jesus takes his own clean shirt off of his own back and gives it to us to wear. As we live in this life, we have faith that this is the case. That is we trust (i.e., have faith in) Jesus to take care of everything in the end. If we are wrong, and you are right, then I guess we won't get in. Because no amount of doing the right things for the wrong reasons is going to help us in any case.

Actually, the accepting the sacrafise of Christ maybe seen as a 'test' and if one does accept this sacrafise the person attains, by the Mercy of God salvation. So in reality don't you think that a person has options to face, whether to do A or B, just like a test, and then he chooses, if he chooses one, then he is rewarded and will go paradise, by God's grace, and if he chooses B he's name will not be in the book of life and be cast into the lake of burning sulphur. Am I going wrong somewhere?

I believe I understand this point better. I generally mean something different when I think of a test. But, if I understand it the way you do, then perhaps I might concur with your idea that accepting the sacrifice of Christ may be seen as a 'test'.

Thank you for your patience, Eesa.

Thank-you for having patience with me. I know my answers can be very involved. I hope I don't go into too much detail.

[snakelegs]

I am saying that Christ was the only sinless being. All of the rest of us, me included, have taken the sinful path.

thanks for clearing that up.

[shanu]

Ok gLo i respect ur reasearch in fact i researched in christianity and a few other religions for some time.
It is nt quite true that islam is more based on good deeds and actions. yes thats true
Now let us define the word ISLAM itself

Islam means Submitting Surrendering Obeying in Sincerity and Peace to Allah!
So to submit one must haf very deep faith and with that faith only is he able to Surrender completely to ALLAH. The very word surrender has a deep meaning, to surrender oneself to another one must have complete faith that the person will take care of him.. With that come absolutue obedience N with this obedience the person avoids temptations and jihad(struggle) to do more good deed in sincerity and peace. Peace here refers to that his deeds will nt affect or harm anyone in any way. I hope i haf helped u. God bless u!

[Grace Seeker]

Thank you for you words Shanu. If I hear you correctly, "submission" goes beyond merely acquiesence or formal obedience, to actually desiring to please God and seek his will for your life as an expression of your innermost being.

[snakelegs]

Ok gLo i respect ur reasearch in fact i researched in christianity and a few other religions for some time.
It is nt quite true that islam is more based on good deeds and actions. yes thats true
Now let us define the word ISLAM itself

Islam means Submitting Surrendering Obeying in Sincerity and Peace to Allah!
So to submit one must haf very deep faith and with that faith only is he able to Surrender completely to ALLAH. The very word surrender has a deep meaning, to surrender oneself to another one must have complete faith that the person will take care of him.. With that come absolutue obedience N with this obedience the person avoids temptations and jihad(struggle) to do more good deed in sincerity and peace. Peace here refers to that his deeds will nt affect or harm anyone in any way. I hope i haf helped u. God bless u!

i agree - submitting/surrendering is a very powerful and deep concept.

[- Qatada -]

Thank you for you words Shanu. If I hear you correctly, "submission" goes beyond merely acquiesence or formal obedience, to actually desiring to please God and seek his will for your life as an expression of your innermost being.

Yep, u hit the nail in the head. :p The greatest reward in paradise will be the chance of seeing Allaah Almighty there, and He will never be displeased because the only reason these people entered paradise was through His mercy.


Check this vid out :) I don't want to post it up because it might slow snakelegs connection up;


A Meeting with Allaah.. (in Paradise)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ukBX2TvfyQE




Peace & thanks. :)

[glo]

How wonderful to see Christians, Muslims and agnostics (at least one of them) agree on the beauty of submitting to God! :)

God's peace and blessings to you all :)

[Pygoscelis]

Snakelegs (the agnostic you are refering to?) just said its deep and powerful. Didn't say anything about beautiful, unless I missed it. They putting words in your mouth Snakelegs or did I miss a post of yours?

Speaking as an athiest myself, I too would agree that surrender is deep and poweful, but I find it very far from beautiful, quite the opposite in my case.

The word surrender to me just means giving up freedom. And I view freedom as a wonderful thing.

[- Qatada -]

Hi Psygoscelis.


You're not actually free because if one doesn't obey Allaah, the person is still a slave of society. And if you go against what everyone else does, the person is classed as an outcast, so they may follow the society - hence they become a slave to their society to be accepted by the people.



Peace.

[Fishman]

I have heard it said that in Christianity faith is what matters most, whereas in Islam good deeds/works is what matters most.

So, going back to my original question: How different are the views of Islam and Christianity with regards to the importance of faith and good deeds?

Peace

:sl:
From how my favourite scholar and former teacher descirbed it to me, faith and works are both important in Islam, but faith is the most important of them all. Every Muslim goes to paradise based on faith, but the ones who sinned and did bad deeds too much will have to go into the fire for a split second first. However, being in the fire for a split second will seem like ages to them, because it is so bad.
:w:

[Keltoi]

:sl:
From how my favourite scholar and former teacher descirbed it to me, faith and works are both important in Islam, but faith is the most important of them all. Every Muslim goes to paradise based on faith, but the ones who sinned and did bad deeds too much will have to go into the fire for a split second first. However, being in the fire for a split second will seem like ages to them, because it is so bad.
:w:

That seems odd to me.

[glo]

Snakelegs (the agnostic you are refering to?) just said its deep and powerful. Didn't say anything about beautiful, unless I missed it. They putting words in your mouth Snakelegs or did I miss a post of yours?

Perhaps you are right.
I read the replies rather quickly, and on second reading I realise that Grace Seeker also did not actually comment on whether he considered submission to be beautiful or otherwise.

So I have to admit that I put words in people's mouhs and made rather large assumptions ... but knowing Grace Seeker and snakelegs I am fairly sure that they will be forgiving towards me! :D

Speaking as an athiest myself, I too would agree that surrender is deep and poweful, but I find it very far from beautiful, quite the opposite in my case.

The word surrender to me just means giving up freedom. And I view freedom as a wonderful thing.

I can understand that you, as an atheist would think so. I am married to an atheist, and he finds the very thought of submitting to God (or anybody for that matter) deeply disturbing ...

My personal view is that by submitting to God you gain freedom much greater than the one you surrendered to him.
I don't expect that to make any sense to you, but that's the only way I can express it.

Peace :)

[snakelegs]

well, i didn't mention beauty - but why not?
it may just be individual relations to words.
"surrender" does not necessarily mean a weakness - sometimes it is a great strength. paradoxical, i know.
there is a spiritual version of surrender that goes beyond the way the word is normally used.

[snakelegs]

My personal view is that by submitting to God you gain freedom much greater than the one you surrendered to him.
I don't expect that to make any sense to you, but that's the only way I can express it.
Peace :)

yup. well said.
many mystic traditions would understand this, i think.
ironically, it is a very powerful concept.

[Abdul Fattah]

Snakelegs (the agnostic you are refering to?) just said its deep and powerful. Didn't say anything about beautiful, unless I missed it. They putting words in your mouth Snakelegs or did I miss a post of yours?

Speaking as an athiest myself, I too would agree that surrender is deep and poweful, but I find it very far from beautiful, quite the opposite in my case.

The word surrender to me just means giving up freedom. And I view freedom as a wonderful thing.

From a strictly theoretical point of view freedom is neither beautiful nor ugly and hence the same goes for it's opposite. Instead I would say freedom is potential. Potential for both the beauty and ugly.

Islam says the following: animals are created with desire, and they follow it. Angels are created with reason, hence they follow that. Mankind is created with both, so we have to choose. If you look at freedom vs. submission from that point of view; submission to religion means following reason, and doing what one wants (for him/herself) equals following desire. That's why Muslims find submission more beautiful then freedom. Another interesting view is that as slave of Allah subhana wa ta'ala we have the highest degree of liberty. So the real freedom is choosing to follow your reason, as opposed to following the causality of your desire. And in a way science backs that up, we cannot control our desires, we cannot dosage our emotions, we cannot fine-tune them. The only control we have over the physical inputs from our body is that we can ignore them.

So basically what Glo just said :)
See, you're more of a muslima then you realize yourself ;)

[Grace Seeker]

Snakelegs (the agnostic you are refering to?) just said its deep and powerful. Didn't say anything about beautiful, unless I missed it. They putting words in your mouth Snakelegs or did I miss a post of yours?

Speaking as an athiest myself, I too would agree that surrender is deep and poweful, but I find it very far from beautiful, quite the opposite in my case.

The word surrender to me just means giving up freedom. And I view freedom as a wonderful thing.

Let me put surrender in a different context, and then tell me what you think.

In Christianity, husband and wife are enjoined to live in mutual submission to one another. (Btw, I am aware that there are some fundamentalist Christians who only want to have the wife submit to our husband, and not the other way around, but I think they selectively read those passages to their own ends, not the glory of God. --But, I'm off topic.)

In mutually submitting to one another, they are surrendering the natural human desire to put one's self first, to instead consider emotional, physical and spiritual needs of one's partner as having primacy. There is no loss of freedom, but an exercising of that freedom to bless another human being.

I do think it is beautiful I also think it is beautiful when parents submit to providing for their children, employers for their employees. What a beautiful world it would be if we could all put away the idea that "I'm #1."