When friends lose faith ...

[glo]

I would like to know what you do, when a friend loses faith and walks away from your religion?
I know different religions (and different individuals) will have different views on this, so I would like to explore this.

When a friend walks away from the Christian faith, my heart is so heavy, and I feel like crying! :cry:
I guess for me it is a sign that this/her faith was weak in the first place - because it in incomprehensible to me that they would walk away, if they had really known Jesus and if they fully understood the nature of God!

If appropriate I will talk to my friend, but I don't pressurise them into returning ... because people have God-given free will.
Instead I pray, pray, pray ...!

What would you do?

Peace

[lyesh]

I'd try to convince her back......
And I'll ask Allah to guide her! Insha Allah.... but if she goes beyond a certain limit, i'd leave her! just like i did to my own sis!

[glo]

I agree that there is a point, when you have to let people go ... and ask for God's guidance on them ...

What happened to your sister?
Has her falling away from Islam affected your relationship with each other?

Peace

[north_malaysian]

I'll do nothing. That's what I did when a friend of mine became an Atheist. And I avoid talking about religion with him.

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[lolwatever]

Heya glo,

If someone leaves Islam due to some sort of understanding he formed or doubts, then i'd debate him till he comes back or decides to just decides to avoid discussion.

In the case where people leave religion for material gains or things of that sort, i'd simply dissociate myself from them becasue they're anything but good influence (shows their state of mind to give up somethign eternal for something worthless and finite).

and ofcourse... in an Islamic country, it's more than just letting them jump in and out the way they please ;)

oh ya also i remember the verse 'you don't guide whom you want, but Allah guides whom he wills', that verse was directed to the prophet who was soooo upset n sad that his uncle wouldn't listen to him on his deathbed.

Personally i'm real wrapped when i see people leaving other ideologies and accepting islam, whether its christianity or hinduism or whatever :)

take care all teh best :)

[lyesh]

I agree that there is a point, when you have to let people go ... and ask for God's guidance on them ...

What happened to your sister?
Has her falling away from Islam affected your relationship with each other?

Peace

hi glo:thankyou:

yea my sis.... she didnt leave islam. But she is totally changed. I will never call a muslim a disbeliever until she admits it. But she was a really good practicing muslim. Now she has changed a lot! she's acting like gothic ppl. she doesnt wear the hijab and she yells at mom and mocks at those who r trying to follow islam. anyway, me and my husband have tried a lot to bring her normal self back... but she wudnt listen. Now we have left her. I dnt talk to her much and she doesnt talk to me as well!


ps: btw, if she still comes back.... im always there 4 her!

[Keltoi]

Many times people leave a religious faith because some event has occurred that shattered it. Whether it be death, sorrow, etc, these things can test one's faith. My approach would be different with someone who left faith because of some tragic life event. Often people who go through a tragedy or face emotional trials turn to God for guidance, but sometimes they blame God and turn from Him. You just have to reinforce for them that God is there to help one through times of hardship, and that the trials and tribulations of life are a test of faith.

[glo]

Many times people leave a religious faith because some event has occurred that shattered it. Whether it be death, sorrow, etc, these things can test one's faith. My approach would be different with someone who left faith because of some tragic life event. Often people who go through a tragedy or face emotional trials turn to God for guidance, but sometimes they blame God and turn from Him. You just have to reinforce for them that God is there to help one through times of hardship, and that the trials and tribulations of life are a test of faith.

I like your reply, Keltoi. :)

Sometimes judging people for leaving their faith can be really patronising and hurtful ... because we have not walked in their shoes!

I believe that we all have our potential personal traumatic situations, which would test our faith severly - possibly to the point of breaking it!
People need to know tht God loves us and cares for us, and knows our trials and hurts - even when we have turned away from him. They may not see it in their time of pain and anger, but the time may come, when they will remember. :)

Peace.

[Umar001]

I would like to know what you do, when a friend loses faith and walks away from your religion?
I know different religions (and different individuals) will have different views on this, so I would like to explore this.

When a friend walks away from the Christian faith, my heart is so heavy, and I feel like crying! :cry:
I guess for me it is a sign that this/her faith was weak in the first place - because it in incomprehensible to me that they would walk away, if they had really known Jesus and if they fully understood the nature of God!

If appropriate I will talk to my friend, but I don't pressurise them into returning ... because people have God-given free will.
Instead I pray, pray, pray ...!

What would you do?

Peace

THis is a hard one man, I alway worry and I always end up in grief when I hear a someone's become a Muslim, it's something I lose sleep over, I wonder what if this and will anyone help them, is there anyone who they can turn to, what if this and that, I guess thats why I personally am reluctant to give da'wah, or take shahadas, because I dont like having such things on my concience, to the point that in honesty, just the worry and pain of the possability of having kids and then they leaving Islaam, has kinda ended up with me not wanting kids in that sense.

An example, when my cousin came back from Africa, where he had his wedding, he pointed out a girl who used to be 'Muslim' (I say it like this cos Muslims back home dont practice much, they do the basics but thats about it) and she left Islaam, I couldn't sleep that night, it worrried me so much, then it annoyed me so much, if I knew someone who left Islaam I'd love to talk to them, just to see why they left, I tried to speak to some 'apostates' from differnt websites, they didn;t provide any information, and it was this kinda zeal I have for wanting to speak to apostates that I think Gary thought I actually wanted to kill some guy lol, nah.

Anyhow, if someone loses faith, I end up wanting to talk to them about it and see if theres anything I can learn from it.

[Malaikah]

Sometimes judging people for leaving their faith can be really patronising and hurtful ... because we have not walked in their shoes!

I believe that we all have our potential personal traumatic situations, which would test our faith severly - possibly to the point of breaking it!
People need to know tht God loves us and cares for us, and knows our trials and hurts - even when we have turned away from him. They may not see it in their time of pain and anger, but the time may come, when they will remember. :)

Yes, but the reason God puts us through such trials in the first place is so that He can test us, and to give us the chance to turn to Him, not away from Him. If we turn away, we are failing the test.

God did tell us, that He will never burden a soul with more than it can handle...

[lyesh]

exactly sis cheese! :D

[Woodrow]

On the surface this appears to be a difficult situation.



In regards to those who change religious beliefs:

If you search for the reason why people walk away from their faith there is usually a very good reason. Some times they did not go against their old teachings, they feel that they have simply come to the fulfilment of their old beliefs and have grown into a new level. That person, is a true lover of God(swt) and will continue to grow until they reach the plateau where they feel they can truly worship in accordance to the will of God(swt). they are either on the right path or soon will be, they need to be just left alone with their choices and any talk of God(swt) should be in regards to God's(swt) love of us.


In Regards to those who loose faith and no longer believe in God(swt):

Any attempt to tell them they are in error will simply cause them to come to the conclusion, that they have "escaped" from the "brainwashing" of people that do not have the strength to design their own destiny. These people seem to come to the concept that the universe is either uncontrolled chaos or they can rationilise and learn to live within the physical limitations of it.

It is best to avoid any attempts to tell them they are in error, although they may be quick to tell you that your beliefs are nonsense.

I believe the best steps to take are:

Learn more about your own beliefs. Verify the validity of them.

Avoid pointless circular arguements.

Pray often for both yourself and for your friend.

Seek the guidance of Believers you trust and use them as a crutch and guidance to keep your own faith intact.

Allow your friend the freedom to make his/her own choices. If Allah(swt) does not compel us to believe, we have no right to compel others to believe.

[lolwatever]

If you search for the reason why people walk away from their faith there is usually a very good reason. Some times they did not go against their old teachings, they feel that they have simply come to the fulfilment of their old beliefs and have grown into a new level. That person, is a true lover of God(swt) and will continue to grow until they reach the plateau where they feel they can truly worship in accordance to the will of God(swt). they are either on the right path or soon will be, they need to be just left alone with their choices and any talk of God(swt) should be in regards to God's(swt) love of us.

Depends on what they're leaving and what they're moving into.

Someone who's moving from judaism into christianity is considered as improving his religion especially if he's improving upon his old religion by believing in prophethood of jesus...

whereas someone moving from christianity into judaism in teh sesne that he'll disbeleive in the prophethood of jesus is seen as degrading his religion, inhereafter terms, more punishment.

Similarly someone who's leaving Islam into any other ideology is literally moving out of possibility of entering paradise and convicting himself to eternity in hell.

it's nothign to do with what the person feels... it's to do with whether he's obeying Allah or not, many Muslims feel they are worshipping god 'better' by doing thigns differently, as far as Allah is concerned, that's them worshipping their desiers and not him SWT.

take care all teh best :)

salamz

[Malaikah]

Someone who's moving from judaism into christianity is considered as improving his religion especially if he's improving upon his old religion by believing in jesus...

:sl:

Actually shouldnt it be worse? Since the Jews believe in one God, but in christianity the person will be worshipping a man? :uuh::?

[lolwatever]

^ salams oops! sorry i should hav said 'prophethood' of jesus...
should hav been clearer, jazaks

salams

[lolwatever]

ps: keep in mind some (maybe all? i dunno) jews believe that ezra is son of god... so it could be better if they move in2 watever 4m of christainity

BUT ALLAHU ALAM dont quote me on that... all ic an say, DEFINATELY they're encouraged to convert from judaism to christianity if they gonan improve by believing in jesus prophethood....

salams

[Malaikah]

:sl:

But isnt it worse to believe he is a God then to disbelieve that he is a prophet? :uuh:

[lolwatever]

lol man as i sed... i can only assure a jew that he's better off converting to christianity if he's giong to be like those jahova (or however u spell it) fellas who believe that he's a prophet.. not god.

as for other situations, i dont know :D but whatever the case, my point was... encouragng jews/christians to improve their religion is recommended.....

even for example someone who doesnt pray... even tho he's a non Muslim... we don't discourage them from fasting or paying zakat etc... coz someone who doesnt pray but does most of what Islam says gets less (eternal) punishment than someone who does nothing at all

just like jannah is levels, hell is also 'darakaat' (degrees of torment)

lol i wonder if i make sense :?

salamz

[Keltoi]

:sl:

Actually shouldnt it be worse? Since the Jews believe in one God, but in christianity the person will be worshipping a man? :uuh::?

That is false. Christians do not worship a "man", they worship God, who manifested himself on Earth. They are one and the same. It's okay if you don't understand that or don't believe that, but stating that Christians worship a "man" is completely false.

[lolwatever]

Heya Keltoi

Cheese point was that they're worshipping someone who use to eat and excrete (which aren't attributes of a God in any shape or form)... as far as Islam is concerned, christians are worshipping a human being, and as far as Jesus is concerned, he'll deny that he asked to be worshipped when he comes back to earth and on DOJ as well.

take care all the best :D

[Umar001]

Heya Keltoi

Cheese point was that they're worshipping someone who use to eat and excrete (which aren't attributes of a God in any shape or form)... as far as Islam is concerned, christians are worshipping a human being, and as far as Jesus is concerned, he'll deny that he asked to be worshipped when he comes back to earth and on DOJ as well.

take care all the best :D

No some Christians worship only the 100% that is G-d not the 100% that is man, they dont worship the 100% is man because thats man, but the 100% is worshiped because thats G-d.

Come on, you should have known by now, Man is not there to be worshipped.

tut tut

[lolwatever]

but i was talking about the 'God' that 'manifsets' himself on earth that keltoi was referring to...

i know not all christians worship jesus

btw i noticed u write 'G-d' instaed of 'god' wastup with that lol?

jazaks
salamz :)

[Umar001]

but i was talking about the 'God' that 'manifsets' himself on earth that keltoi was referring to...

i know not all christians worship jesus

btw i noticed u write 'G-d' instaed of 'god' wastup with that lol?

jazaks
salamz :)

Well the G-d that manifests himself does not do the doo doo, thats the 100% Man side, not the 100% God side.

G-d < its an old habit, I noticed you write jazaks, whats that about :p

lol

[lolwatever]

lol this is so off topic... but in short, ur saying that god manifsted hismelf on earth yet the portion on earth is independent of his godly side? therefore it's not god who came down to earth? which begs the question, how is it a manifestation of him on earth if non of his godly attributes are reflected in his earthly form?

salamz

[Keltoi]

lol this is so off topic... but in short, ur saying that god manifsted hismelf on earth yet the portion on earth is independent of his godly side? therefore it's not god who came down to earth? which begs the question, how is it a manifestation of him on earth if non of his godly attributes are reflected in his earthly form?

salamz

When Christians worship Jesus Christ they are worshipping God, they are one in the same.

[lolwatever]

^ xactly, and Muslims know that Jesus was a man, christians proclaim him to be god (who eats, excretes and dies... and does all sorts of non-godly things).

so back2topic :)

[Keltoi]

^ xactly, and Muslims know that Jesus was a man, christians proclaim him to be god (who eats, excretes and dies... and does all sorts of non-godly things).

so back2topic :)

With all due respect, you as a Muslim can believe whatever you want. However, I would ask you to have more respect for my belief as a Christian, and refrain from speaking of Jesus Christ in such a way. I'm sure you didn't mean to be insulting, but to me personally that is offensive. So yes, back on topic.

[glo]

Peepz, we have many discussion threads about the divinity of Jesus here, where these things can continued to be discussed.
I would expect most people, who have been members here for a while, and who have followed such discussion threads to have an awareness of the Christian perception that Jesus is God, and that therefore we do not worship a man or an idol.
It therefore seems unfair and inappropriate to make such false statements here ...

May I politely ask to bring this thread back to it's original topic of what to do, when friends lose faith?

Thank you all. :)

[KAding]

If I may give my somewhat non-religious opinion. If they are happy, let them be. Everyone searches their own path towards happiness, we are all unique. No one lifestyle fits all. I only hope people won't start ignoring someone just because they have changed their religious beliefs.

I know religious people want to 'save' people and no doubt they have good intentions. But my advice would be to give these people some space to figure out where they stand.

[Skillganon]

With all due respect, you as a Muslim can believe whatever you want. However, I would ask you to have more respect for my belief as a Christian, and refrain from speaking of Jesus Christ in such a way. I'm sure you didn't mean to be insulting, but to me personally that is offensive. So yes, back on topic.

:thumbs_up
I agree, one should be respectful speaking about Essa bin Maryam. This could of been done in a more respectful way. I advise brother's to give more thought's before answering.
(something I don't do alway's)

By all mean's if one wan'ts to discuss Theology do so but it should be in done in respectful manner to the person you are discussing with and the person you are discussing about.

[glo]

If I may give my somewhat non-religious opinion.

You may ... just this once!! ;D

If they are happy, let them be. Everyone searches their own path towards happiness, we are all unique. No one lifestyle fits all. I only hope people won't start ignoring someone just because they have changed their religious beliefs.

I know religious people want to 'save' people and no doubt they have good intentions. But my advice would be to give these people some space to figure out where they stand.

If an atheist friend became religious ... would that bother you in any way, KAding?

[KAding]

If an atheist friend became religious ... would that bother you in any way, KAding?

To be quite, honest, no. In fact, I would find it rather interesting and it would allow for plenty of stuff to talk about. Why do you think I hang around on a religious forum? ;)

My sister is actually becoming a nun. It doesn't bother me the slightest, in fact, I find it rather fascinating. A nun, lol. So exotic! She has some controversial opinions because of her religious belief and I can even join her when she does 'Christian stuff', like going to church. I think it's all very interesting. I wish more of the people I know where religious, preferably all of a different religion to spice things up a bit.

But I imagine it's different for a religious person. After all, I assume they believe those apostates will burn in hell for eternity? In which case I can imagine it would bother me. After all, I wouldn't want friends or family to suffer for eternity!

[glo]

To be quite, honest, no. In fact, I would find it rather interesting and it would allow for plenty of stuff to talk about. Why do you think I hang around on a religious forum? ;)

My sister is actually becoming a nun. It doesn't bother me the slightest, in fact, I find it rather fascinating. A nun, lol. So exotic! She has some controversial opinions because of her religious belief and I can even join her when she does 'Christian stuff', like going to church. I think it's all very interesting. I wish more of the people I know where religious, preferably all of a different religion to spice things up a bit.

But I imagine it's different for a religious person. After all, I assume they believe those apostates will burn in hell for eternity? In which case I can imagine it would bother me. After all, I wouldn't want friends or family to suffer for eternity!

You are a very special person, KAding.
I like your tolerance and respect for others. :)

I know atheists who are very militant in their views - I guess that has clouded my judgment of atheists a little.
It's always good to hear your views.

Thank you :)

[Pygoscelis]

This is an interesting topic, and I bet it has as many answers as there are people. I guess it depends on where you're coming from.

I have some close friends who are Taoist and one of them recently left that path. They did not seem bothered in the slightest. They saw themselves as all having their own paths to follow and they were happy that he found his, even if it left theirs.

On the other hand, I'm sure a fire and brimstone christian, the kind who believe in a literal Hell with eternal torture etc would be horrified at a friend leaving the fold, and rightly so, as they'd be imagining the apostate suffering for all eternity.

From an atheistic point of view, I'm not horrified an atheist friend of mine converts to a religion, so long as they find happiness and meaning in it and don't join some sort of closed minded or violent cult. I see them as engaging in a fantasy that brings them comfort and pleasure. Its no worse from my point of view than friends who get heavily into Star Trek or something.

[learningislam]

:salamext:

THis is a hard one man, I alway worry and I always end up in grief when I hear a someone's become a Muslim, it's something I lose sleep over, I wonder what if this and will anyone help them, is there anyone who they can turn to, what if this and that, I guess thats why I personally am reluctant to give da'wah, or take shahadas, because I dont like having such things on my concience, to the point that in honesty, just the worry and pain of the possability of having kids and then they leaving Islaam, has kinda ended up with me not wanting kids in that sense.

An example, when my cousin came back from Africa, where he had his wedding, he pointed out a girl who used to be 'Muslim' (I say it like this cos Muslims back home dont practice much, they do the basics but thats about it) and she left Islaam, I couldn't sleep that night, it worrried me so much, then it annoyed me so much

O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He(Allah) will love and they will love Him,- lowly(humble) with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault.That is the grace of Allah, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things. verse 54 Surah al-maeda

Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers andregular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).verse 55 Surah al-maeda

As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- it is the fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph. verse 56 Surah al-maeda

:wasalamex

[Dirk_Deagler]

I'm an Atheist. I have a feeling that we all think our beliefs are superior. I mean, we pretty much have to; if we didn't think they were superior, we wouldn't have them as our beliefs. So getting that out of the way I'll do you all a favor and refrain from arguing for Atheism.

But I do want to point out that there are very good reasons for being an Atheist and those reasons usually develop slowly over the course of many years. If your friend is losing her faith then I'd suggest you make careful observations to the manner in which shes losing it. If its been a gradual loss of interest over many years then there may not be much you can do about it. She believes what she believes and you can choose to either respect that or not.

However if you observed her lose her faith in a rapid and unexpected manner then it may very well be possible that she is still undecided. If you really wanted to draw her back into your religion then you must do it an atheist's own terms. You must convince her of the practical every day value of religion as well as the social values. Trying to reach her with threats of ****ation or religious beliefs might not work.

That being said, I just want to point out that being an Atheist is not an amoral path. It is not wicked. I believe and have accepted that there is no after-life, no soul, no god in heaven and no hell. I believe that my life is like a boulder being dropped into a lake. Though the boulder journey through the lake is quick, its waves continue onward long after it has reached the bottom. My life, like the boulder's, is brief. But my eternity is the wave I produce and how that wave affects other people for the better, long after I'm dead.

[Keltoi]

I'm an Atheist. I have a feeling that we all think our beliefs are superior. I mean, we pretty much have to; if we didn't think they were superior, we wouldn't have them as our beliefs. So getting that out of the way I'll do you all a favor and refrain from arguing for Atheism.

But I do want to point out that there are very good reasons for being an Atheist and those reasons usually develop slowly over the course of many years. If your friend is losing her faith then I'd suggest you make careful observations to the manner in which shes losing it. If its been a gradual loss of interest over many years then there may not be much you can do about it. She believes what she believes and you can choose to either respect that or not.

However if you observed her lose her faith in a rapid and unexpected manner then it may very well be possible that she is still undecided. If you really wanted to draw her back into your religion then you must do it an atheist's own terms. You must convince her of the practical every day value of religion as well as the social values. Trying to reach her with threats of ****ation or religious beliefs might not work.

That being said, I just want to point out that being an Atheist is not an amoral path. It is not wicked. I believe and have accepted that there is no after-life, no soul, no god in heaven and no hell. I believe that my life is like a boulder being dropped into a lake. Though the boulder journey through the lake is quick, its waves continue onward long after it has reached the bottom. My life, like the boulder's, is brief. But my eternity is the wave I produce and how that wave affects other people for the better, long after I'm dead.

If the only reason one is involved with a religion is fear of burning in Hell then I believe they are missing the point entirely, and whoever is teaching them that is missing the point entirely. Yes, I believe there are consequences for lack of faith, but I'm not God and I don't have the authority to judge anyone. What brought me to Christianity and what keeps my faith strong is not the fear of Hell, but the peace God's love brings to me.

[Pygoscelis]

I'm an Atheist.

Hey! You! Get offa my cloud! :shade:

Trying to reach her with threats of ****ation or religious beliefs might not work.

Actually I think if she's only halfway deconverted, the hell concept is a very powerful tool to keep her in the fold. I think the concept of hell exists for this very purpose, to keep believers from questioning and to bring doubters back into the fold.

Hell's effect on one's behaviour is only as strong as one's belief in Hell. Actual atheists (and other religious who don't believe in Hell) are immune but those who still sort of believe, even a little, will be impacted by the idea.

[Dirk_Deagler]

I suppose it would just depend on the person. If you're trying to convince someone back into their religious beliefs and practices then the idea of an eternal threat looming over them their whole life might be less appealing than no Afterlife at all.

I'm not saying this should be a pick and choose type of thing. But I think for some people it largely is. I think some people can't help but choose beliefs that best suit them as opposed to beliefs they actually believe.

Mind you, true Atheism probably isn't suited for most people. And it definitely isn't easy. You basically have to accept that the only meaning your existence holds is the meaning you assign to it.

[Dirk_Deagler]

I think the concept of hell exists for this very purpose, to keep believers from questioning and to bring doubters back into the fold.

You mean as opposed to there actually being a hell?

[Pygoscelis]

I suppose it would just depend on the person. If you're trying to convince someone back into their religious beliefs and practices then the idea of an eternal threat looming over them their whole life might be less appealing than no Afterlife at all.

Perhaps but it is the FEAR of hell that's important here. They may not like the idea of burning in hell, but the idea could very well lead them to a pascal's wager kind of mindset. Most deconversion stories I've heard tell of the person struggling against the concept of hell (that it brings them back a number of times before they finally break free).

Mind you, true Atheism probably isn't suited for most people.

I think most people could get by handily being atheist. There are other ideologies people can fill the void religion leaves and many groups people can identify with from politics to humanist philosophy (or buddhist or taoist etc, which can be atheistic) to sports and hobbies.

And it definitely isn't easy. You basically have to accept that the only meaning your existence holds is the meaning you assign to it.

Or the meaning your culture does. And thats really no different than religion (culturally assigned value and purpose).

[snakelegs]

If the only reason one is involved with a religion is fear of burning in Hell then I believe they are missing the point entirely, and whoever is teaching them that is missing the point entirely. Yes, I believe there are consequences for lack of faith, but I'm not God and I don't have the authority to judge anyone. What brought me to Christianity and what keeps my faith strong is not the fear of Hell, but the peace God's love brings to me.

tho i'm not a christian, i agree with this 101%

[snakelegs]

being an agnostic, i believe there is much that is unknowable.
question i have for atheists is:
how can you "know" there is no god, any more than you can "know" that there is?
atheism seems to me a kind of anti-religion religion.

[Dirk_Deagler]

I don't know that there's not a 'god' of some form. But I have absolutely no reason to think there is one. And theres even less of a reason to think that if he does exist its in the form of Allah or Christ or Chanauka Harry.

How do I know god doesn't exist? I quite honestly don't, and can't. It's the very nature of God that his existence really can't be disproven (that does not mean he exists). It always struck me as quite the easy way out.

Atheism isn't anti-religion. It's just pro-reason, as opposed to pro-faith. Faith, to me, is a bad thing. I know I'm gonna catch a lot of flack for this but. You know those roots of all evil people are always talking about? I think there are two roots of evil. Perpetuated and valued ignorance (religion) and self rationalization.

Just to avoid confusion, I'll define evil as whatever it is that keeps everyone from getting along with eachother in a global society. I'm not using the term in a way to describe moral absolutes.

[snakelegs]

How do I know god doesn't exist? I quite honestly don't, and can't. It's the very nature of God that his existence really can't be disproven (that does not mean he exists).

i agree with this - that's why i'm an agnostic. (tho in recent years i have come to believe in god - still, ultimately it is unknowable.)

[QUOTE]Atheism isn't anti-religion. It's just pro-reason, as opposed to pro-faith. [QUOTE]
it's not any more reasonable or rational to believe that god does not exist any more than that he does, is it? beliefs are not required to be rational - after all, they are beliefs. ultimately, it is unknowable.
personally, i see no need for religion - an organized, institutional worship of god and yes. it is quite possible to be opposed to religion, but not to god (i manage it, anyway).
god and religion are not the same thing!
i have actually run into atheist "missionaries" - with pamphlets and the whole bit. so in this way it strikes me as not entirely different from religion, tho without a lot of the negative (to me) ingredients, such as divisiveness.
it is a belief in the non-existence or absence of god, which is nevertheless a belief in itself.

[glo]

[QUOTE=snakelegs;579904]i agree with this - that's why i'm an agnostic. (tho in recent years i have come to believe in god - still, ultimately it is unknowable.)

[QUOTE]Atheism isn't anti-religion. It's just pro-reason, as opposed to pro-faith.

it's not any more reasonable or rational to believe that god does not exist any more than that he does, is it? beliefs are not required to be rational - after all, they are beliefs. ultimately, it is unknowable.
personally, i see no need for religion - an organized, institutional worship of god and yes. it is quite possible to be opposed to religion, but not to god (i manage it, anyway).
god and religion are not the same thing!
i have actually run into atheist "missionaries" - with pamphlets and the whole bit. so in this way it strikes me as not entirely different from religion, tho without a lot of the negative (to me) ingredients, such as divisiveness.
it is a belief in the non-existence or absence of god, which is nevertheless a belief in itself.

As far as I understand atheist just means not believing in the existance of God, or perhaps believing in the non-existance of God (If that's the same thing)

But then there is anti-theism, followers of which not only believe that there is no God, but also that believing in God is harmful and damaging ...

I'm sure it's more complex than that really, but that's glo's wisdom in a nutshell! :D

Peace

[Pygoscelis]

It isn't the same thing Glo, and its actually a very important distinction.

The term athiest has two common definitions, and they are incompatible. Some (most theists) define atheists as people who believe there is no god. Others (most self-described atheists) define athiests as lacking a belief in god (but not necesarily believing there is no god). It is a fine distinction but one that leads to a lot of misunderstanding when atheists speak with theists.


If agnostic means not knowing 100% if there is a god, then I believe that every sane person is agnostic. Believers will all have a tiny bit of doubt and atheists will always have to admit the remote possibility.

Then there are anti-religious people who find religion to be negative and something that we'd be better off without. By necesity, these are always atheists. These people can appear like religious missionaries, crusading for their cause. Only in this case it is to eradicate rather than spread religion.

I don't think you can call these people religious because they don't have any common belief system of their own other than to oppose religious ones.

As the rather cliche phrase goes "If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair colour"

[Dirk_Deagler]

I don't think you can call these people religious because they don't have any common belief system of their own other than to oppose religious ones.

I disagree. Many atheists seem to be anti religious because religions often attack the foundations of the atheist's beliefs, science, logic and critical thinking.

It was Christianity that originally contradicted scientific evidence in preference to their own religious doctrine. This isn't not an opinion, this is a fact. I even recall Pope John Paul II apologizing for the Church's treatment of Galileo for his discoveries.

I think that many atheists feel it necessary to defend their beliefs when they are being attacked by religion. And as far as all the Atheists out there who may very well be against religion in general (Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris) I think they only believe what they do because the cons of religion are more tangible than the pros.

You can see war and death and prejudice and ignorance. It's much harder to see a sense of community and fulfillment and inner peace. (Especially because most religious people don't portray these qualities anymore than you're average atheist.)

I guess you could say I'm borderline anti-religion. Karl Marx was wrong about a lot of stuff, but I think he was right when he described religion as a sort of system that keeps the impoverished satisfied with their existence and keeps them from achieving a higher socio-economic status.

Have any of you ever heard of the Mandate of Heaven? It's a Taoist construct that simply states, if someone is your ruler, then they are meant to be your ruler, and if they are bad rulers the Kami spirits will remove them from power and punish them. If you ask me, that sounds like a governmental system just begging for corruption.

Also Confucianism has a similar belief systems. Can anyone guess what the two main religions in China are? Has anyone taken a close look at the Chinese government lately? I believe there is a connection.

I have a feeling many of you would be more likely to agree with critiques of religions that aren't your own but I view pretty much all religions as the same.

Except maybe Buddhism because Theravada Buddhism is a lot closer to a type of philosophy than it is a religion. The original Buddha was against the worship of false idles, and only reluctantly agreed with the idea of reincarnation. He was also an admitted atheist.

I've also always found the Hindu/Buddhist beliefs a lot more symmetrically beautiful than Judao-Christian beliefs.

They clash less with science and logic too, so thats always a plus.

[north_malaysian]

I've also always found the Hindu/Buddhist beliefs a lot more symmetrically beautiful than Judao-Christian beliefs.

How about Islam?:(

[Pygoscelis]

I disagree. Many atheists seem to be anti religious because religions often attack the foundations of the atheist's beliefs, science, logic and critical thinking.

That is a trend if anything. Atheism itself is nothing more than a lack of beief in Gods. There are atheists who believe in aliens. There are atheists who believe Elvis is alive. There are athiests who belive in vast government conspiracies, that 9/11 was faked, that the moon landing was faked.

Being athiest doesn't mean you have a reasoned and logical mind. It just means you've managed to reject one claim (that of Gods). Many athiests arrive at atheism due to logic and reason but many others get there through the same emotional pulls that bring people to religion. THe problem of evil, etc. God wasn't there for you so you lose faith in God.

And then there is a 3rd group of atheists who were simply never exposed to religion, until later in life. If you're not brought in as a child, the odds of bringing you in to any religion are slim (though it does happen).

It was Christianity that originally contradicted scientific evidence in preference to their own religious doctrine. This isn't not an opinion, this is a fact. I even recall Pope John Paul II apologizing for the Church's treatment of Galileo for his discoveries.

Yes. This is one of the nasty things about religion in general. The age of rabid christianity is called the Dark Ages for a reason. And during that time it was the Islamic world that was the great centre of learning and discovery - until their religionists turned against science and threw them into their own age of non-discovery from which they've yet to break free.

I guess you could say I'm borderline anti-religion.

Thats ok. I'm the same minus the borderline. We are very much in the minority here though so I'm glad you write with the great respect for our hosts that you do. I endeauver to do the same.

[Dirk_Deagler]

I've always viewed Islam as like a Christianity lite. The main differences are, it seems like its slightly easier to get into heaven in Islam, whereas in Christianity its almost impossible if you take the bible literally. Also, it's interesting how Islam is the culmination of its two predecessors, christianity and Judaism. But it also seems too convenient. Ah yes, christianity is the truth, forget about Judasim! Ah wait, nevermind, Islam is the true path! It's the culmination!

I'm imagining a train in which the conductor is yelling, "Next stop on the monotheism railway, Islam! Please prepare your tickets!

Well, I didn't get off at the Judaism, Christianity or Islam stops. Maybe I'll get off at the next stop. Maybe the NEXT stop will be the TRUTH! Maybe the next stop will be the TRUE culmination of all of its predeccesors!

But I doubt it.

[Keltoi]

Has this thread turned into an athiesm fan club? lol

[Dirk_Deagler]

Hmm. A discussion of Atheism with respect to Atheist's opinion about other religions I suppose. Sorry for derailing the thread! I'm just quite vocal about my beliefs!

Or maybe I just like hearing myself talk!

[glo]

Hmm. A discussion of Atheism with respect to Atheist's opinion about other religions I suppose. Sorry for derailing the thread! I'm just quite vocal about my beliefs!

Or maybe I just like hearing myself talk!

Hi Dirk

I can only speak for myself, but as the thread starter I can assure you that your views are interesting and welcome to the discussion.

It's just that we have no had many active atheist participants here recently, so there seems to be a sudden influx ... ;)

peace

[Keltoi]

Hi Dirk

I can only speak for myself, but as the thread starter I can assure you that your views are interesting and welcome to the discussion.

It's just that we have no had many active atheist participants here recently, so there seems to be a sudden influx ... ;)

peace

Hier stehe ich....I assume that is German? What does it mean? I was going to take a German class at school but took Spanish instead. I would really like to learn German though. Sorry this is off topic.

[Malaikah]

Also, it's interesting how Islam is the culmination of its two predecessors, christianity and Judaism. But it also seems too convenient. Ah yes, christianity is the truth, forget about Judasim! Ah wait, nevermind, Islam is the true path! It's the culmination!

Its nothing to do with convenience! Thats just the way it turned out. Literally thousands of prophets have been sent to mankind by God however their message didnt survive. Of the remains are judaism and christianity, both of which have been greatly distorted and no longer represent the real message that the prophets conveyed to the people. None of the prophets before claimed that they will be the final messengers, they knew prophets would come after them, and the final one if Muhammad (pbuh).

Learn a little more about Islam and this might make sense to you, especially about Muhammad.

I'm imagining a train in which the conductor is yelling, "Next stop on the monotheism railway, Islam! Please prepare your tickets!

Naturally the only reason you see it this way is because you cant recognise that God exists and He has sent prophets for us, as a mercy to mankind.

Well, I didn't get off at the Judaism, Christianity or Islam stops. Maybe I'll get off at the next stop. Maybe the NEXT stop will be the TRUTH! Maybe the next stop will be the TRUE culmination of all of its predeccesors!

I think the next stop will be a little too late. The will be no more prophets after Muhammad. So the next stop that you take will be in the grave I guess, where the truth will be obvious but it will be a little too late to believe. :X

Take care.:thankyou:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i never had a friend leave islaam Alhamdulillaah. Infact even the ones who do a lot of haraam seem to love islaam and believe its the truth Alhamdulillaah. But if it was to happen (Audhubillah) i guess all we can do is give dawah and make dua'a.

:salamext:

[glo]

Hier stehe ich....I assume that is German? What does it mean? I was going to take a German class at school but took Spanish instead. I would really like to learn German though. Sorry this is off topic.

Hi Keltoi

It means 'Here I stand'
Taken from this quote: 'Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen!' (Martin Luther)

There is a German thread here http://www.islamicboard.com/misc-lan...ht=German+help, and here http://www.islamicboard.com/misc-lan...ht=German+help, if you are interested.

Spanish??? Bah! :okay:

Peace :)

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

The posts about Islam and science have been moved here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...science-3.html