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chris4336
11-22-2006, 03:11 PM
With the thread on the Imans in American, and Muslims demonized like Jews I was wondering if someone could explain the prejudices that exist in Muslims countries? I understand there tensions between Jews and Arabs, but do you think a Jewish person would get thrown off an airplane for praying? Or would a Jewish person not even be allowed in the country in the first place? What about Christian people? or Americans?


Thanks
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Woodrow
11-22-2006, 03:59 PM
Yes, some individuals are biased and show prejudice. But, Islamic laws treat all people equaly.


I have lived in several Muslim countries as a Non-Muslim. I never felt discriminated against because of my race or religion. It is true I did not like a lot of the laws then. But, I will say that the laws were applied equally and fairly among all people. If anything us non-Muslims were often given a break if we violated some of the laws, as it was felt that we were not fully responsible as we did not understand them.
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Keltoi
11-22-2006, 04:11 PM
People will usually bounce around the point, but the reality is that countries in the West that many Muslims choose to live in are far more tolerant than the vast majority of so-called "Muslim" countries.
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Muezzin
11-22-2006, 04:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
People will usually bounce around the point, but the reality is that countries in the West that many Muslims choose to live in are far more tolerant than the vast majority of so-called "Muslim" countries.
No bouncing about for me, the West is a great place to live which I enjoy on a daily basis. But maybe I'm biased since I was born here in the UK, I dunno.

I do have my qualms (cameras everywhere, certain foreign policies), but I also appreciate the standard of life that citizens have here.
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Makky
11-22-2006, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by chris4336
With the thread on the Imans in American, and Muslims demonized like Jews I was wondering if someone could explain the prejudices that exist in Muslims countries? I understand there tensions between Jews and Arabs, but do you think a Jewish person would get thrown off an airplane for praying? Or would a Jewish person not even be allowed in the country in the first place? What about Christian people? or Americans?


Thanks
I'm an Arab and muslim and i live in A muslim country , maybe woodow has answered your question as a western muslim who visited many muslim countries before his convertion to islam. though your question isn't clear for me , What do you want to say or ask?
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Makky
11-22-2006, 07:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
People will usually bounce around the point, but the reality is that countries in the West that many Muslims choose to live in are far more tolerant than the vast majority of so-called "Muslim" countries.
Nowadays most of Muslim countries are far more tolerant than you could imagine , Anyone can do anything , can talk about anything , can insult even basics of islam , but you cant talk about or insult the western agents (the arab presidents and kings) ;D

by the way i'm not proud of that

what i always like to say : don't consider regimes in most arab countries as 100% islamic regimes , if you want to talk about the state and the policies in Islam , then talk about an islamic regime 100% like the state of abu-bakr and the state of omar ebn alkhatab
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Ansar Al-'Adl
11-22-2006, 07:44 PM
:sl:

The prominent Saudi scholar, Shaykh Salmân Al-'Awdah touches upon this issue towards the end of the following fatwa:
The Muslim is taught by his book, the Qur’ân, to hate falsehood, distorted beliefs, and deviance, and consequently, to hate the representation of falsehood and deviant beliefs at the hands of the unbelievers. He does not, however, hate the people themselves. In fact, he should wish for them every possible good and hope that they will attain guidance and be saved from the Hellfire.

When one of the unbelievers attains guidance, the Muslim should be as joyous for his sake as our Prophet (peace be upon him) was when a Jewish boy converted to Islam just before he died. The Prophet (peace be upon him) left his home saying: “All praises are for Allah who saved him from the Hellfire.”

The hatred one should have is for their deviance or sinful behavior, not for the people themselves.

This is why a Muslim cannot be blamed for his affection towards his son, wife, and others, even if they are not Muslims. However, such affection should not cause him to neglect any part of his religion. That is why the Muslims who, on account of their wives and children, failed to emigrate to Madinah as they were commanded were rebuked for staying behind. Indeed, Allah describes our wives and children as a trial.

In fact, the ones who encourage hatred are certain Western and other non-Muslim politicians and media personalities who seem to be doing everything in their power to instigate conflicts against Muslims in various parts of the world. By their practices, they seem to be trying to give the Muslims lessons in hatred and rancor.

If there are some moderate and reasonable voices in the West and in places like India, they are being drowned out by the overwhelming clamor of extremism and anti-Islamic rhetoric. Admittedly, the same thing can be said for the Muslims as well. However, I must stress that the West is suffocating the moderate and temperate voices in the Muslim world who are on the correct Islamic methodology, the methodology that is the way of salvation for the Muslim nation.
It is the current political climate which has fueled prejudice and bias in both the western and muslim world and certain elements on both sides seem to be doing everything in their power to drive the two into a collision course.

Non-muslims have historically been very well under Islamic rule and this only changed when people deviated from Islam and secular or heretical groups began to fight for power in the muslim world.

Welldiorant says:
"The people of dhimma: Christians, Zaradishts, Jews and Sabi'a; enjoyed a degree of tolerance during the Umayyad rule which can never be assimilated to Christian countries nowadays. They were free to practice their rituals. They maintained their churches and synagogues and the only obligation was that they should wear a special color and pay tax for every person pro rata his income. This sum ranged between two and four dinars. This tax was exclusively levied on non-Muslims who can go to war. However priests, women, children, slaves, elderly men, the disabled, the blind and the destitute were exempted from the tax. Dhimmis were exempted from military service in return. They were also exempted from zakat which is 2.5% of the annual income and the government was bound to protect them. [The History of Civilization 131/12]
A History of the Jewish People, edited by Haim Hillel Ben-Sasson (Harvard University Press, 1976), an Israeli historian:
"The height of magnificence and luxury was reached by the wealthy Jews in the lands of Islam, particularly in Moslem Spain. We know that the court bankers of Baghdad in the tenth century kept open house for numerous guests and for the poor. Similarly, the ceremonies of the Jewish leaders in Babylonia [Iraq] and the patronage of the leading Jews in Moslem Spain, indicate conditions of ease and plenty.

"The attitude toward these non-Moslems in the Islamic territories was shaped in principle in accordance with the concept of dhimma, meaning protection granted to them by agreement or treaty… In return, their lives and property were protected and, in accordance with the general attitude of Islam to infidels, they were assured liberty of faith and worship. They were also permitted to organize themselves as they wished, and the Jews fully availed themselves of that permission.

"From the Jewish viewpoint, this conglomerate of Moslem attitudes to infidels was easier to live with than the one that had been established by Christianity, particularly in the Byzantine Empire. As we have noted above, for hundreds of years the overwhelming majority of Jews lived in the Islamic territories. Although it is possible to perceive some Christian impact on the Moslem attitude towards non-believers and even towards the Christians themselves, the moderation with which the Moslems applied this influence proved to be of great importance to the majority of Jewry over a long period. Unlike the masses of Christians and pagans who joined the Moslems over the first half century or so, the overwhelming majority of the Jews under Moslem rule held firmly to their own faith."
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IzakHalevas
11-22-2006, 08:14 PM
Sociologist Philip Mendes asserts that before the anti-Jewish actions of the 1930s and 1940s, overall Iraqi Jews "viewed themselves as Arabs of the Jewish faith, rather than as a separate race or nationality". Additionally, early Labor Zionism mostly concentrated on the Jews of Europe, skipping Iraqi Jews because of their lack of interest in agriculture. The result was that "Until World War II, Zionism made little headway because few Iraqi Jews were interested in the socialist ideal of manual labor in Palestine." (Simon, Reguer, and Laskier, p 364)

In the early days after independence in 1922, well-educated Jews played an important role in civic life. Iraq's first minister of finance, Yehezkel Sasson, was a Jew, and Jews were important in developing the judicial and postal systems. Records from the Baghdad Chamber of Commerce show that 10 out of its 19 members in 1947 were Jews and the first musical band formed for Baghdad's nascent radio in the 1930s consisted mainly of Jews. Jews were represented in the Iraqi parliament, and many Jews held significant positions in the bureaucracy.
In the 1930s, the situation of the Jews in Iraq deteriorated. Previously, the growing Iraqi Arab nationalist sentiment included Iraqi Jews as fellow Arabs, but these views changed with the introduction of Nazi propaganda and the ongoing conflict in the Palestinian Mandate. Despite protestations of their loyalty to Iraq, Iraqi Jews were increasingly subject to discrimination and harsh laws. On August 27, 1934 many Jews were dismissed from public service, and quotas were set up in colleges and universities. Zionist activities were banned, as was the teaching of Jewish history and Hebrew in Jewish schools. Following Rashid Ali's pro-Axis coup, the Farhud ("violent dispossession") pogrom of June 1 and 2, 1941, broke out in Baghdad in which approximately 200 Jews were murdered (some sources put the number higher), and up to 2,000 injured -- damages to property were estimated at $3 million. There was also looting in many other cities at around the same time. Afterwards, Zionist emissaries from Palestine were sent to teach Iraqi Jews self-defense, which they were eager to learn. ." (Simon, Reguer, and Laskier, p 364)
In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews were detained, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, and one of the most important anti-Zionist Jewish businessmen in the country was arrested and executed for allegedly selling goods to Israel, shocking the community (Tripp, 123). Additionally, like most Arab League states, Iraq forbade any legal emigration of its Jews on the grounds that they might go to Israel and could strengthen that state. However, intense diplomatic pressure brought about a change of mind. At the same time, increasing government oppression of the Jews fueled by anti-Israeli sentiment, together with public expressions of anti-semitism, created an atmosphere of fear and uncertainty.
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chris4336
11-23-2006, 03:34 AM
I didn't mean to start a Muslim/Jewish thing and I apologize if I wasn't clear....I was just kind of wondering what the situation is like in Muslim countries - Is there a general fear/distrust of all Westerns?

I was thinking about increasingly poor situation of Muslims in the West, and wondering about the situation of Westerns in Muslim Country?

Thanks for reply, its nice to read about the history of tolerance in Islam and a shame to see such a lack of tolerance around the world today (in general - not just Islam).
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north_malaysian
11-23-2006, 05:35 AM
Malaysians hate George W. Bush and his policy, but we love Americans.

I dont think westerners are discriminated here.

But there are restrictions against ISraelis visiting Malaysia, because we dont have diplomatic relationship with Israel.
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north_malaysian
11-23-2006, 06:16 AM
FESTIVALS IN MALAYSIA


TAHUN BARU CINA (CHINESE NEW YEAR)


HARI RAYA PUASA (EID AL FITR)


HARI RAYA KORBAN (EID AL ADHA)


AWAL MUHARRAM (MUSLIM NEW YEAR)


MAULUD NABI (PROPHET MUHAMMAD'S BIRTHDAY)


FIESTA SAN PEDRO (SAINT PETER'S FEAST)


DEEPAVALI (DIWALI - HINDUS' FESTIVAL OF LIGHT)


HARI GAWAI (SARAWAKIAN HARVEST FESTIVAL)


PESTA KAAMATAN (SABAHAN HARVEST FESTIVAL)


KAUL (MELANAU SEA GOD FESTIVAL)


9 EMPERORS FESTIVAL (HOKKIEN CHINESE FESTIVAL)


HARI WESAK (GAUTHAMA BUDDHA'S BIRTHDAY)


THAIPUSAM (HINDU'S LORD MURUGAN FESTIVAL)
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Bittersteel
11-23-2006, 09:40 AM
I live in a country where I only hear of discrimination of Hindus and minorities but in the end its them who gets the privileges.

Malaysians hate George W. Bush and his policy, but we love Americans.
same for Bangladeshis.
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IzakHalevas
11-23-2006, 02:03 PM
Are Hindu's given many rights under Shariah law since they are viewed as idolators by basically all Islamic scholars?
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chris4336
11-23-2006, 02:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Malaysians hate George W. Bush and his policy, but we love Americans.
If this is the case why do you think that people in Muslim countries are able to make a distinction, while people in Western countries continue to lump all Muslims together?
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Hijrah
11-23-2006, 03:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Are Hindu's given many rights under Shariah law since they are viewed as idolators by basically all Islamic scholars?
Actually jews and christians are viewed as mushriks too, even if they are people of the book...

But anyway some would be of the view that Hindus wouldn't be allowed to be citizens of an Islamic state and some would stand for otherwise, saying that they would and would be protected within
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IzakHalevas
11-23-2006, 03:27 PM
Actually jews and christians are viewed as mushriks too
Please explain how you believe Jews are idolators.
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Hijrah
11-23-2006, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Please explain how you believe Jews are idolators.
It's very complicated, but most scholars agree, idolators ahs many meanings and obviously you don't worship idolators. As for shirk, it can include rejecting Allah's prophets but anyway I read it somewhere on the subject of Islamic monotheism known as tawheed.
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IzakHalevas
11-23-2006, 03:41 PM
It's very complicated, but most scholars agree, idolators ahs many meanings and obviously you don't worship idolators. As for shirk, it can include rejecting Allah's prophets but anyway I read it somewhere on the subject of Islamic monotheism known as tawheed.
Could elaborate further, since jewish people are required to say twice the "shema" which declares G-d being one, and being the only G-d, and all powerful and to only worship him. The Torah also calls idolatry an abomination, and says to die before converting to it, which many Jews did when Christians said conver or die. They chose death.
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Hijrah
11-23-2006, 03:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Could elaborate further, since jewish people are required to say twice the "shema" which declares G-d being one, and being the only G-d, and all powerful and to only worship him. The Torah also calls idolatry an abomination, and says to die before converting to it, which many Jews did when Christians said conver or die. They chose death.
Many Muslims cults who have deviated for Islam claim one God but have idolatry in their beliefs

The trinitarians that you may be referring to there claim one God as well...

Hindus claim one God believing instead that everything IS GOD including the idols but it is still SHIRK!
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IzakHalevas
11-23-2006, 04:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
Many Muslims cults who have deviated for Islam claim one God but have idolatry in their beliefs

The trinitarians that you may be referring to there claim one God as well...

Hindus claim one God believing instead that everything IS GOD including the idols but it is still SHIRK!
True. But at the same time, can you show me anything in Jewish scripture that promotes, tolerates, or has any bit of idolatry? I know you cannot.
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Hijrah
11-23-2006, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
True. But at the same time, can you show me anything in Jewish scripture that promotes, tolerates, or has any bit of idolatry? I know you cannot.
From the perspective of Islam, I know it is and that's what is more important.

either way, check this thread out:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...god-error.html
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Ansar Al-'Adl
11-23-2006, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Could elaborate further, since jewish people are required to say twice the "shema" which declares G-d being one, and being the only G-d, and all powerful and to only worship him. The Torah also calls idolatry an abomination, and says to die before converting to it, which many Jews did when Christians said conver or die. They chose death.
Shirk is a broad category. Here's one example. The Prophet said about Jews and Christians: they took the graves of their prophets as places of worship." (Sahîh al-Bukhârî).

There are many jewish sources that confirm this, such as the book Jewish Holy Sites and Tombs in Eretz Israel:
This handsome volume contains the wonderful story of the Jewish holy sites throughout Eretz Israel, sketching the lives of important figures throughout the ages: our Biblical ancestors, the prophets, kings, Talmudic tannaim and amoraim, and scholars from scholars from later centuries. [...] Basic to the custom of pilgrimage to these locations is the belief that prayer at holy sites has special meaning. The faithful hold that righteous buried at these sites will act as advocates before g-d, enabling our prayers for health, succes in marriage, and comfortable livelihood to be heard sympathetically. The graves of our ancestors are a source of rich, historical meaning for us, their descendants, connecting us to the Land and to our roots. Only a nation that knows and remembers its past can have a future. (Menachem Michelson, Moshe Milner and Yehuda Salomon, Jewish Holy Sites and Tombs in Eretz Israel)
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Ea...alem-%20Burial
http://www.asergeev.com/pictures/arc...002/323/31.htm

I don't know if this is mainstream judaism or not, but this is what Muslims would call shirk al-uluhiyyah. However Muslims and Jews stand united against shirk ar-rububiyyah.

Regards
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IzakHalevas
11-23-2006, 04:40 PM
Shirk is a broad category. Here's one example. The Prophet said about Jews and Christians: they took the graves of their prophets as places of worship." (Sahîh al-Bukhârî).


There are many jewish sources that confirm this, such as the book Jewish Holy Sites and Tombs in Eretz Israel:
This handsome volume contains the wonderful story of the Jewish holy sites throughout Eretz Israel, sketching the lives of important figures throughout the ages: our Biblical ancestors, the prophets, kings, Talmudic tannaim and amoraim, and scholars from scholars from later centuries. [...] Basic to the custom of pilgrimage to these locations is the belief that prayer at holy sites has special meaning. The faithful hold that righteous buried at these sites will act as advocates before g-d, enabling our prayers for health, succes in marriage, and comfortable livelihood to be heard sympathetically. The graves of our ancestors are a source of rich, historical meaning for us, their descendants, connecting us to the Land and to our roots. Only a nation that knows and remembers its past can have a future. (Menachem Michelson, Moshe Milner and Yehuda Salomon, Jewish Holy Sites and Tombs in Eretz Israel)
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Ea...alem-%20Burial
http://www.asergeev.com/pictures/arc...002/323/31.htm
Jews will pray at the site of a tomb, but not because it will "count" more, but because it will be more meaningful to the people praying. When prayer occurs at a site of a tomb of a sage, or rebbe, ect, some Jews believe that the sage, a master of the art of prayer will help the Jew pray to G-d in some way. Prayer at a tombstone, is to G-d, the same way prayer in your living room is to G-d. It is a matter of which area, or setting has more meaning to the person praying. Which is why a grave site is acceptable place to pray to G-d.

I don't know if this is mainstream judaism or not, but this is what Muslims would call shirk al-uluhiyyah. However Muslims and Jews stand united against shirk ar-rububiyyah.
I have seen Muslims pray on sidewalks beforem are you saying that in a cemetary is not a place where you can pray to G-d? G-d hears your prayer regardless of where you are according to Judaism, it is a matter of is a cemetary a place where prayer will have more meaning to you. A place where a wise teacher was that I knew is a place I may pray sometimes. I never pray to him. Only to G-d. But I remember the things he told me about prayer, and about Torah when I am in the cemetary. Prayer becomes much more emotional when it occurs at certain places for me, instead of a daily routine it might have if I am in my room.
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Hijrah
11-23-2006, 04:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Jews will pray at the site of a tomb, but not because it will "count" more, but because it will be more meaningful to the people praying. When prayer occurs at a site of a tomb of a sage, or rebbe, ect, some Jews believe that the sage, a master of the art of prayer will help the Jew pray to G-d in some way. Prayer at a tombstone, is to G-d, the same way prayer in your living room is to G-d. It is a matter of which area, or setting has more meaning to the person praying. Which is why a grave site is acceptable place to pray to G-d.



I have seen Muslims pray on sidewalks beforem are you saying that in a cemetary is not a place where you can pray to G-d? G-d hears your prayer regardless of where you are according to Judaism, it is a matter of is a cemetary a place where prayer will have more meaning to you. A place where a wise teacher was that I knew is a place I may pray sometimes. I never pray to him. Only to G-d. But I remember the things he told me about prayer, and about Torah when I am in the cemetary. Prayer becomes much more emotional when it occurs at certain places for me, instead of a daily routine it might have if I am in my room.
If, you feel that way, fine just know that Islam sees it the way that Islam sees it and Judaism sees it the way Judaism sees it
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