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Muezzin
11-26-2006, 08:14 PM
Sorry for the sensationalist tone. I didn't write this.

Cops shoot groom dead

Hurt 2 pals in barrage of bullets

By VERONIKA BELENKAYA, ALISON GENDAR, MIKE JACCARINO
and ROBERT F. MOORE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS


Cops blasted 50 bullets at three unarmed men near a Queens strip club early yesterday, killing a groom hours before his wedding, wounding two of his pals and spurring outraged relatives of the victims to call the shooting unjustified.

"Today was his wedding day - not his death day," said .Oniaja Shepherd, 43, whose nephew 23-year-old Sean Bell was slain by police gunfire. "We were supposed to go to a wedding. Now we're going to a funeral."

An undercover detective, three plainclothes detectives and a police officer in civilian clothes hit Bell's car with 21 rounds about 4 a.m. after the Queens man twice rammed his vehicle into an unmarked NYPD van, police said.

One cop fired 31 times, pausing to reload, sources said.

Bell, a former high school baseball phenom who had been celebrating his bachelor party at the strip club, was fatally hit by two shots to the neck and arm. Two of his friends in the car were rushed to a nearby hospital with bullet wounds, police said.

Cops said there may have been a fourth person in the vehicle who fled.

No weapons were found on Bell or his friends, and no guns were found in their bullet-riddled car near the Kalua Cabaret in Jamaica, police said.

"Our hearts go out to them," Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said of Bell's family.

Bell was at the strip club with about 20 friends, police sources said. Two undercover cops, looking to make prostitution arrests, were also inside.

About 3 a.m., one of the undercover cops heard a bouncer suggest to a dancer that he had a gun, and the cops went outside to warn plainclothes officers in a nearby van, the sources said.

An hour later, a fight erupted outside the club. Bell, Joseph Guzman and Trent Benefield were allegedly among eight men yelling at another man, Kelly said.

One of the undercover cops heard Bell shout, "Let's f--- him up," and Guzman say, "Yo - go get my gun," Kelly said.

"It's getting hot on Liverpool, for real. I think there's a gun," an undercover warned his lieutenant, Kelly said.

One undercover stayed at the club and the other followed the men as they got into Bell's car on Liverpool St. Bell drove forward, brushing that officer before slamming into the unmarked police van as it rounded the corner, Kelly said. The undercover officer then identified himself as a cop and fired the first round, sources said.

Bell threw the car into reverse and slammed into a building, then drove forward into the van again. Plainclothes cops poured from the van. Five officers at the scene began shooting.

Kelly said the investigation was ongoing. He stopped short of judging the actions of the officers involved. In 2004, he had quickly characterized the shooting of 19-year-old Timothy Stansbury by a Brooklyn cop as unjustified.

Although NYPD sources said the undercover cop at yesterday's incident had identified himself as an officer before police fired, Kelly said no witnesses had confirmed that account and brass had not interviewed the cops, pending a grand jury probe.

"It's not a 'good shoot,' " one veteran investigator said. "It's a big mess."

Mayor Bloomberg issued a statement last night.

"Although it is too early to draw conclusions about this morning's shootings in Jamaica, Queens, we know that the NYPD officers on the scene had reason to believe that an altercation involving a firearm was about to happen and were trying to stop it," Bloomberg said.

He said he had been "in touch with community leaders" throughout the day, and a mayoral spokesman said the leaders included the Rev. Al Sharpton.

Bell's loved ones joined with Sharpton to condemn the cops' actions and demand information.

Lorenzo Kinred, who was at the bachelor party, said he spoke to a wounded Benefield before he was put into an ambulance.

"The police didn't identify who they were," Benefield said, according to Kinred, 32. "They just pulled guns out."

"Sean \[Bell\] saw a guy dressed just like us pulling a gun," Benefield added, Kinred said. "He just wanted to try and drive away."

At Jamaica Hospital, where Bell died, Sharpton declared, "Police do not have the right to be the judge, jury and executioners."

Sharpton later visited Guzman, 31, who had been in the front passenger seat, and Benefield, who was in the back seat, at Mary Immaculate Hospital. Guzman, who was in critical condition, was shot at least 11 times on the right side of his body from his neck to his feet and had 17 entrance or exit wounds. Benefield, who was in stable condition, was shot three times.

Sharpton said it was "outrageous at best" that the wounded men were handcuffed to their hospital beds. "Where are they going?" he asked.

Kelly said the men were unshackled as soon as it was discovered they were not armed.

"This was supposed to be a special day," said Bell's father, William. "No one in life should experience this kind of pain. It's not natural. A part of me is gone."

Les Paultre, the father of Bell's fiancée, Nicole Paultre, told cops: "As you go home to your wives claiming you did your job, I want you to know you killed an innocent man."

And the fiancée's mom, Laura Harper-Paultre, accused cops of killing Bell "in cold blood," adding, "Cops are very comfortable killing black men."

But police adamantly denied the shooting was racially motivated, and Kelly said two of the cops who fired are black, two are white and the fifth is Hispanic.

Bell's 22-year-old fiancée was at a bridal shower on Long Island when the dad of her two kids was killed. Puffy-eyed, Paultre arrived at the scene of the shooting yesterday morning. "I am the intended bride," she said before collapsing.

At least two bullets fired during the altercation hit a parked car and another slug flew into a nearby house. A bullet also whizzed by a pair of Port Authority cops standing on an elevated AirTrain platform.

Bell's mom, Valerie, said cops hadn't told her anything about the shooting. "They're covering up, because they know the police did wrong," she charged. "You know how society works. They label all African-American men the same. They should have pulled out a badge before they started shooting."


With Peter Kadushin and Warren Woodberry Jr.

Source

Here's an excerpt from another citation

'On Sunday, the group 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care said it is issuing a vote of no confidence in Kelly over the shooting. It is also calling for the removal of the chief of the Organized Crime Control Bureau, Anthony Izzo, who it says created the undercover unit involved in the incident. Additionally, the group wants a re-examination of what it says is a policy that allows officers from the organized crime control unit to consume alcohol on the job.

“Who knows whether or not that was a factor in this particular shooting?” said Marq Claxton, a retired police detective and one of the founders of the group. A police spokeswoman on Sunday did not immediately offer comment on the group’s demands.

This isn’t the first time the NYPD has come under scrutiny over police-involved shootings. In 1999, police killed Amadou Diallo, an unarmed West African immigrant who was shot 19 times in the Bronx. The four officers in that case were acquitted of criminal charges.

And in 2003, Ousmane Zongo was shot to death during a police raid. The 43-year-old, a native of the western African country of Burkina Faso, repaired art and musical instruments in Manhattan. He was hit four times, twice in the back.'

Bloody 'ell.
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GARY
11-26-2006, 09:08 PM
Very sensational with lot's of emotional accounts of what happened.

The tone seems to really condemn the cops.

So I point out some of the important parts;
Bell was at the strip club with about 20 friends, police sources said. Two undercover cops, looking to make prostitution arrests, were also inside.

About 3 a.m., one of the undercover cops heard a bouncer suggest to a dancer that he(Bell) had a gun, and the cops went outside to warn plainclothes officers in a nearby van, the sources said.

One of the undercover cops heard Bell shout, "Let's f--- him up," and Guzman say, "Yo - go get my gun," Kelly said.

One undercover stayed at the club and the other followed the men as they got into Bell's car on Liverpool St. Bell drove forward, brushing that officer before slamming into the unmarked police van as it rounded the corner, Kelly said. The undercover officer then identified himself as a cop and fired the first round, sources said.

Bell threw the car into reverse and slammed into a building, then drove forward into the van again. Plainclothes cops poured from the van. Five officers at the scene began shooting.
If a person rams police with a vehicle, it is known that this is considered attempted homicide. You should expect to be shot.
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Ninth_Scribe
11-26-2006, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
Very sensational with lot's of emotional accounts of what happened.

The tone seems to really condemn the cops.

So I point out some of the important parts;


If a person rams police with a vehicle, it is known that this is considered attempted homicide. You should expect to be shot.
That's just Queens. They're always going off on each other. But laws have changed. I just lost a close friend of the family here because he lost it and blew four holes into the Eastham Police Department. Had he opened fire on anything else, the matter would be open to a more serious investigation, but Homeland Security Laws state if you fire on a municiple building, it's an act of terrorism (regardless of who does it) and use of 'deadly force' is automatically justified. I suppose ramming a municiple property is viewed the same way. They have zero-tolerance for this type of BS.

Ninth Scribe
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GARY
11-26-2006, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
That's just Queens. They're always going off on each other. But laws have changed. I just lost a close friend of the family here because he lost it and blew four holes into the Eastham Police Department. Had he opened fire on anything else, the matter would be open to a more serious investigation, but Homeland Security Laws state if you fire on a municiple building, it's an act of terrorism (regardless of who does it) and use of 'deadly force' is justified. I suppose ramming a municiple property is viewed the same way. They have zero-tolerance for this type of BS.

Ninth Scribe
It is important to note that attacks on authority and law enforcement are always handled more harshly in society. If a person will show a total disregard for law enforcement, they will not respect any part of society. This should be handled firmly.
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IzakHalevas
11-26-2006, 10:07 PM
The strip club before the wedding?
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GARY
11-26-2006, 10:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
The strip club before the wedding?
Better than after.
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Ninth_Scribe
11-26-2006, 10:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
The strip club before the wedding?
Yea, it's a street thing. Get your goods in before you give em up.

Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
11-26-2006, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by GARY
It is important to note that attacks on authority and law enforcement are always handled more harshly in society. If a person will show a total disregard for law enforcement, they will not respect any part of society. This should be handled firmly.
Excellent point, but there used to be a little 'give' in that. Back in my day, setting off an oxy-acetylene bomb on the school football field was a practical joke.

I wouldn't recommend it now, though.

Ninth Scribe
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Dahir
11-29-2006, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
The strip club before the wedding?
Its an American tradition called a 'Bachelor's Party'!! :D

As for the killing -- can someone say EXCESSIVE FORCE -- 50 fricking rounds! Smells of Amadou Diallo and every other minority killed by [corrupt] American policemen.
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Keltoi
11-29-2006, 02:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir
Its an American tradition called a 'Bachelor's Party'!! :D

As for the killing -- can someone say EXCESSIVE FORCE -- 50 fricking rounds! Smells of Amadou Diallo and every other minority killed by [corrupt] American policemen.
There were 5 police officers I believe, and if all 5 opened fire that would mean about 8 or 9 shots each. Of course I'm just assuming all 5 firing, if only 2 or 3 were firing that makes it even more excessive. That being said, I wasn't there and I don't know the details around the event. Hopefully the grand jury investigation will get it right and justice will be served any way it goes.
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abdmez
11-29-2006, 02:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Yea, it's a street thing. Get your goods in before you give em up.

Ninth Scribe

Disgusting mentality. A day before he joins with his wife to be married, and he is in a place like a strip club.
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Keltoi
11-29-2006, 02:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Disgusting mentality. A day before he joins with his wife to be married, and he is in a place like a strip club.
If I would have tried that my wife would have opened fire on me....probably much more than 50 rounds.
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Ninth_Scribe
11-29-2006, 04:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
If I would have tried that my wife would have opened fire on me....probably much more than 50 rounds.
I hear that, lol!

Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
11-29-2006, 04:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Disgusting mentality. A day before he joins with his wife to be married, and he is in a place like a strip club.
It's an American tradition and it doesn't have to be a strip club. The old school tradition was to go to an Elk's Lodge and have a stripper jumping out of a cake. Notice the word used is stripper? Not to be confused with hooker (prostitute).

I don't care much for the mentality either, but women are beginning to do the same in return, hiring Chippendale boys for bachelorette parties.

Ninth Scribe
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Woodrow
11-29-2006, 04:49 PM
As sad as this story is. Keep in mind it is the result of a long line of poor judgement made on the part of many people that were involved. There is no one person or group that is guilty alone. The guilt for this tragedy must be shared by all who were involved, from the groom to the ones who actually shot him, plus many people in between.
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Daffodil
11-29-2006, 04:57 PM
hang on........ why the hek do guys go to watch other women strut their stuff when theyre already with some (forget about that fact that he shudnt be doing that any way)

i cant get my head around it, its so perverted its unbelieveable, what a messed up perverted nasty disgusting ugly currupted place we live in.
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Ninth_Scribe
11-29-2006, 05:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Daffodil
hang on........ why the hek do guys go to watch other women strut their stuff when theyre already with some (forget about that fact that he shudnt be doing that any way)

i cant get my head around it, its so perverted its unbelieveable, what a messed up perverted nasty disgusting ugly currupted place we live in.
Well, Americans are bold, free-willed, exhibitionists by reputation. They actually do depend on how others view them (they like to gauge their popularity in this way), but at the same time (not unlike children of a certain age), they'll sometimes go to unusual lengths to demonstrate their rebellious nature and journey for the instant 'shock value' when they don't get enough attention. So football games were blessed for a time with streakers and OMG, you'd see this dude running across the field at half-time, bare-butt naked, lol! It's mind-boggling, some of the things we put each other up to. I was once asked how a 13 year old could get access to an assault rifle. I said: Usually all it takes is a smile, a wink and a DOUBLE DARE! ;)

Translated: We're all nuts! But in a cute sort of way. Ever watch America's Funniest Home Videos?

Ninth Scribe
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zaria
11-29-2006, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdmez
Disgusting mentality. A day before he joins with his wife to be married, and he is in a place like a strip club.

It doesn't say that strippers were there it just say that he was having a bachelor party.I think they are assuming strippers were there. None the less, the police officers had no reason and no right to react the way they did. :cry:
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Ninth_Scribe
11-29-2006, 06:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaria
It doesn't say that strippers were there it just say that he was having a bachelor party.I think they are assuming strippers were there. None the less, the police officers had no reason and no right to react the way they did. :cry:
Lol, I think it's safe to say if the bachelors party was at a ... Strip Club... strippers were definately there!

No reason? Have you ever witnessed a real rumble? They involve alot of people!

Guns and Booze - It's always been a lethal combination.

Ninth Scribe
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Tania
11-29-2006, 07:17 PM
Rest in peace and the bride to has the strength to have a life after his death :(

Its not supposed the cops to have a more strong temper, don't loose their head when they see drunk men in some car :? I could get lost but the cops should be more trained to deal with drunkers :-[
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zaria
11-29-2006, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Lol, I think it's safe to say if the bachelors party was at a ... Strip Club... strippers were definately there!

No reason? Have you ever witnessed a real rumble? They involve alot of people!

Guns and Booze - It's always been a lethal combination.

Ninth Scribe
It was not at a strip club. It was at a regular club None the less, May Allah have mercy on him:shade:
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Woodrow
11-29-2006, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tania
Rest in peace and the bride to has the strength to have a life after his death :(

Its not supposed the cops to have a more strong temper, don't loose their head when they see drunk men in some car :? I could get lost but the cops should be more trained to deal with drunkers :-[
Drunkers are the most dangerous element a police officer has to deal with. A drunk is totaly unpredictable and virtualy immune to pain or logic. Most police training with a drunk is to incapacitate the drunk as fast as possible and then incarcerate him until he is sober enough to comprehend his surroundings.

A confrontation with a drunk is a loosing battle. No matter how beligerant the drunk is the cop is accused of being insensitive to the drunk.

Reality check. A person gets drunk and they should be fully responsible for their actions and words, even if those actions and words are the result of being drunk. The person willingly put themselves in that state and they are not free to justify their actions because of drunkeness.

That group of people was acting beligerant. They were talking about having guns. Their words and actions were definetly not cooperative and they did show intent to get away no matter who they hurt. Now, it was just alcohol talking and was not the real person. But, that is a result of getting drunk. If somebody says they have a gun, it is best to assume they are telling the truth.

the sadness is because of a stupid party many lives have been damaged. The young Bride to be, Parents, even the lives of the police officer's that shot. Now, they will be forced to live always wondering if they could have handled things different. Police officers are not trained to kill. the use of a weapon is the last resort. The majority of officers who ever use a weapon are so few that anytime one does, it will make national news. That only occurs a handfull of times each year. Most police officers will never take their weapon out of the holster except for the annual qualification marksman ship at the firing range.
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Ninth_Scribe
11-29-2006, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaria
It was not at a strip club. It was at a regular club None the less, May Allah have mercy on him:shade:
Referring to the opening post that was quoted as follows:

Cops shoot groom dead - Hurt 2 pals in barrage of bullets

By VERONIKA BELENKAYA, ALISON GENDAR, MIKE JACCARINO
and ROBERT F. MOORE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS

Cops blasted 50 bullets at three unarmed men near a Queens strip club early yesterday, killing a groom hours before his wedding, wounding two of his pals and spurring outraged relatives of the victims to call the shooting unjustified.
Reply

zaria
11-29-2006, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Drunkers are the most dangerous element a police officer has to deal with. A drunk is totaly unpredictable and virtualy immune to pain or logic. Most police training with a drunk is to incapacitate the drunk as fast as possible and then incarcerate him until he is sober enough to comprehend his surroundings.

A confrontation with a drunk is a loosing battle. No matter how beligerant the drunk is the cop is accused of being insensitive to the drunk.

Reality check. A person gets drunk and they should be fully responsible for their actions and words, even if those actions and words are the result of being drunk. The person willingly put themselves in that state and they are not free to justify their actions because of drunkeness.

That group of people was acting beligerant. They were talking about having guns. Their words and actions were definetly not cooperative and they did show intent to get away no matter who they hurt. Now, it was just alcohol talking and was not the real person. But, that is a result of getting drunk. If somebody says they have a gun, it is best to assume they are telling the truth.

the sadness is because of a stupid party many lives have been damaged. The young Bride to be, Parents, even the lives of the police officer's that shot. Now, they will be forced to live always wondering if they could have handled things different. Police officers are not trained to kill. the use of a weapon is the last resort. The majority of officers who ever use a weapon are so few that anytime one does, it will make national news. That only occurs a handfull of times each year. Most police officers will never take their weapon out of the holster except for the annual qualification marksman ship at the firing range.
May be I'm not reading the same story because it seems like some of you feel that the cops reacted correctly. First they were in plain cloths in a club so if guy comes up to you inbeligerant way you have the right to defend yourself. Did those cops once they had any contact with the wedding party pull out their badge and say we are police officers???? Second, They got hot headed and reacted as if they were not police officers. They shot 50 times with no return fire. Even the Mayor of their city said the cops reacted in an unexcusable way.
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zaria
11-29-2006, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Referring to the opening post that was quoted as follows:

Cops shoot groom dead - Hurt 2 pals in barrage of bullets

By VERONIKA BELENKAYA, ALISON GENDAR, MIKE JACCARINO
and ROBERT F. MOORE
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS

Cops blasted 50 bullets at three unarmed men near a Queens strip club early yesterday, killing a groom hours before his wedding, wounding two of his pals and spurring outraged relatives of the victims to call the shooting unjustified.
near a Queens strip club... Next to that strip club was a where they hold Cabaret's. So are you saying he should not have been there or this would not have haapend and it is fault because he was wrong for being the in the first place? If that is ot what your saying I apologize for thinking that.:shade:
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Ninth_Scribe
11-29-2006, 07:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Drunkers are the most dangerous element a police officer has to deal with. A drunk is totaly unpredictable and virtualy immune to pain or logic.
Too true. One of the PSAs (public service announcements) on TV now shows an evening played backwards and says: Remember: You can't rewind the night.

Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
11-29-2006, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaria
near a Queens strip club... Next to that strip club was a where they hold Cabaret's. So are you saying he should not have been there or this would not have haapend and it is fault because he was wrong for being the in the first place? If that is ot what your saying I apologize for thinking that.:shade:
Again, referring to the original post:

Bell, a former high school baseball phenom who had been celebrating his bachelor party at the strip club, was fatally hit by two shots to the neck and arm. Two of his friends in the car were rushed to a nearby hospital with bullet wounds, police said.

Also:

An undercover detective, three plainclothes detectives and a police officer in civilian clothes hit Bell's car with 21 rounds about 4 a.m. after the Queens man twice rammed his vehicle into an unmarked NYPD van, police said.
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zaria
11-29-2006, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Bell, a former high school baseball phenom who had been celebrating his bachelor party at the strip club, was fatally hit by two shots to the neck and arm. Two of his friends in the car were rushed to a nearby hospital with bullet wounds, police said.

Also:

An undercover detective, three plainclothes detectives and a police officer in civilian clothes hit Bell's car with 21 rounds about 4 a.m. after the Queens man twice rammed his vehicle into an unmarked NYPD van, police said.
okay, you have proven they were at a strip club:bravo: But still are you saying that the cops reacted justly??????That is the point I am trying to understand.
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Ninth_Scribe
11-29-2006, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaria
okay, you have proven they were at a strip club:bravo: But still are you saying that the cops reacted justly??????That is the point I am trying to understand.
Well, let's see. There were 20 in Bell's party, a fight broke out, and one car rammed the cops van, twice and they heard another say, I got my gun.

Now, let's assume for a minute that they weren't taking on cops. Pull those cops out of the picture and put any other group in their place. It still would have been a shoot-out. Only, they would have written it off as gang violence. Whose to blame? The idiot that shot his mouth off about having a gun. That's what caused the shoot-out.

Ninth Scribe
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zaria
11-29-2006, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Well, let's see. There were 20 in Bell's party, a fight broke out, and one car rammed the cops van, twice and they heard another say, I got my gun.

Now, let's assume for a minute that they weren't taking on cops. Pull those cops out of the picture and put any other group in their place. It still would have been a shoot-out. Only, they would have written it off as gang violence. Whose to blame? The idiot that shot his mouth off about having a gun. That's what caused the shoot-out.

Ninth Scribe
You can't take the cops out of the picture because that is the issue. The cops being trained for their position.Unless they saw someone reacing as if they had a gun, no reason to shoot fifty times. Shoot one time in the air to get the cilvian attention than if it the cilivian shoot back than you take full force of the situation. THE COPS ACTING IRESPONSIBLE AND UNEXCUSABLE. BOTTOM LINE. And who's to say the guys said I got a gun. The cops coould be saying that because thay know they were wrong. And now and days, Most people don't say I got a gun they just statr shooting unfornatley.You can respond but I wont respond back:okay: Still got love for you though:happy: Got other threads to look at.
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Woodrow
11-29-2006, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaria
May be I'm not reading the same story because it seems like some of you feel that the cops reacted correctly. First they were in plain cloths in a club so if guy comes up to you inbeligerant way you have the right to defend yourself. Did those cops once they had any contact with the wedding party pull out their badge and say we are police officers???? Second, They got hot headed and reacted as if they were not police officers. They shot 50 times with no return fire. Even the Mayor of their city said the cops reacted in an unexcusable way.
Going back to the original post:

Bell was at the strip club with about 20 friends, police sources said. Two undercover cops, looking to make prostitution arrests, were also inside.

About 3 a.m., one of the undercover cops heard a bouncer suggest to a dancer that he had a gun, and the cops went outside to warn plainclothes officers in a nearby van, the sources said.

An hour later, a fight erupted outside the club. Bell, Joseph Guzman and Trent Benefield were allegedly among eight men yelling at another man, Kelly said.

One of the undercover cops heard Bell shout, "Let's f--- him up," and Guzman say, "Yo - go get my gun," Kelly said.

"It's getting hot on Liverpool, for real. I think there's a gun," an undercover warned his lieutenant, Kelly said.

One undercover stayed at the club and the other followed the men as they got into Bell's car on Liverpool St. Bell drove forward, brushing that officer before slamming into the unmarked police van as it rounded the corner, Kelly said. The undercover officer then identified himself as a cop and fired the first round, sources said.

Bell threw the car into reverse and slammed into a building, then drove forward into the van again. Plainclothes cops poured from the van. Five officers at the scene began shooting.

Now for your other point:

shot 50 times with no return fire
Yes that does seem like a lot of shooting. But with 5 officers that is really not that much. I know most cops in the US carry 9-mm Glocks with 10 round magazines. It takes about 3 seconds to empty a magazines in rapid fire. If a person has reason to feel threatened, they are going to fire rapidly. So the actually shooting most likely occured in a time frame of 3 to 10 seconds.

Story might sound different if it had read that the police fired for 3 seconds at the vehicle, instead of saying 50 rounds were fired.

Yes, I agree with the mayor that the police did react in an unexcusable manner. I would place the blame for that on poor training rather than the actions of the individual cops. My suspicion is this was the first time any of those 5 police officers were involved in actually using their weapons on duty. Most Cities usually team up inexperienced police officers with experienced ones, sounds like all 5 were inexperienced.
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zaria
11-29-2006, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Going back to the original post:

Bell was at the strip club with about 20 friends, police sources said. Two undercover cops, looking to make prostitution arrests, were also inside.

About 3 a.m., one of the undercover cops heard a bouncer suggest to a dancer that he had a gun, and the cops went outside to warn plainclothes officers in a nearby van, the sources said.

An hour later, a fight erupted outside the club. Bell, Joseph Guzman and Trent Benefield were allegedly among eight men yelling at another man, Kelly said.

One of the undercover cops heard Bell shout, "Let's f--- him up," and Guzman say, "Yo - go get my gun," Kelly said.

"It's getting hot on Liverpool, for real. I think there's a gun," an undercover warned his lieutenant, Kelly said.

One undercover stayed at the club and the other followed the men as they got into Bell's car on Liverpool St. Bell drove forward, brushing that officer before slamming into the unmarked police van as it rounded the corner, Kelly said. The undercover officer then identified himself as a cop and fired the first round, sources said.

Bell threw the car into reverse and slammed into a building, then drove forward into the van again. Plainclothes cops poured from the van. Five officers at the scene began shooting.

Now for your other point:



Yes that does seem like a lot of shooting. But with 5 officers that is really not that much. I know most cops in the US carry 9-mm Glocks with 10 round magazines. It takes about 3 seconds to empty a magazines in rapid fire. If a person has reason to feel threatened, they are going to fire rapidly. So the actually shooting most likely occured in a time frame of 3 to 10 seconds.

Story might sound different if it had read that the police fired for 3 seconds at the vehicle, instead of saying 50 rounds were fired.

Yes, I agree with the mayor that the police did react in an unexcusable manner. I would place the blame for that on poor training rather than the actions of the individual cops. My suspicion is this was the first time any of those 5 police officers were involved in actually using their weapons on duty. Most Cities usually team up inexperienced police officers with experienced ones, sounds like all 5 were inexperienced.
Fornately there is 3 sides to a story, the cops side, the party guys and the truth. Unfornately the truth would be hard to come about.:cry:
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Woodrow
11-29-2006, 08:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by zaria
Fornately there is 3 sides to a story, the cops side, the party guys and the truth. Unfornately the truth would be hard to come about.:cry:
The real truth is we will never know the truth. Each person, who was involved, has a different viewpoint as to what was happening. Each witness saw something different.

all that can be done is to try to reconstruct the event and then find what are the most probable scenarios, I used the plural form deliberatly. I doubt if there is any one best scenario.
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zaria
11-29-2006, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
The real truth is we will never know the truth. Each person, who was involved, has a different viewpoint as to what was happening. Each witness saw something different.

all that can be done is to try to reconstruct the event and then find what are the most probable scenarios, I used the plural form deliberatly. I doubt if there is any one best scenario.

Agree..
As Salaamu Alkaikum
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Tania
11-30-2006, 05:07 AM
Because they ruined two families life and happiness on this earth, i think the next step would be to train again the whole police section. Here the police are trained to shoot in legs, if the man try to run.3 times in the air and after that in legs. If he has a car and try to drive away, they have the permission to shoot the wheels.

I believe them when they says different versions after the shocking action at which they took part. Its hard to remember when your happy friend died under your eyes without to do anything to save him. It was after all a wedding custom :-[ (here we don't have this custom)
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Keltoi
11-30-2006, 12:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tania
Because they ruined two families life and happiness on this earth, i think the next step would be to train again the whole police section. Here the police are trained to shoot in legs, if the man try to run.3 times in the air and after that in legs. If he has a car and try to drive away, they have the permission to shoot the wheels.

I believe them when they says different versions after the shocking action at which they took part. Its hard to remember when your happy friend died under your eyes without to do anything to save him. It was after all a wedding custom :-[ (here we don't have this custom)
I'm not sure where you're from, but the violence police have to face in the U.S. doesn't leave much room for worrying about leg shots and the like very often. When many street criminals have semi-automatic weapons it isn't logical for a cop to be looking for leg wounds. That being said, these individuals were unarmed. None of use know the whole story just yet, but I'm sure when the grand jury investigation is over we will have a good idea what happened.
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Woodrow
11-30-2006, 12:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tania
Because they ruined two families life and happiness on this earth, i think the next step would be to train again the whole police section. Here the police are trained to shoot in legs, if the man try to run.3 times in the air and after that in legs. If he has a car and try to drive away, they have the permission to shoot the wheels.

I believe them when they says different versions after the shocking action at which they took part. Its hard to remember when your happy friend died under your eyes without to do anything to save him. It was after all a wedding custom :-[ (here we don't have this custom)
Here the police are trained to shoot in legs, if the man try to run.3 times in the air and after that in legs.
That is a very dangerous thing for police to be trained to do. Especialy in a city. Bullets shot up into the air come back down just as fast as they went up and will kill innocent bystanders far from the scene if they get hit. Also the problem with trying to shoot for the legs. Outside of the difficulty in hitting a moving target in the legs, is the probability the bullet will pass through and hit bystanders.
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Tania
11-30-2006, 12:55 PM
Its not too often used this methods, i never heard shootings. I will try to find the police site to see how its the warning exactly :-[ i know they must yell to stop, we are shooting and after that they shoot in the air or at legs.

In the last 20 years i know 5 cases where i heard about shootings and involved foreign citizens too. The police was involved in 1.
I will search for the info :-[
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Woodrow
11-30-2006, 01:36 PM
Keltoi brought up a very good point. Here the criminal elemant quite often has much more fire-power than the police. at the moment the weapon of choice for gang members is the UZI with a 50 round magazine and capable of firing over 500 shots a minute.Yes, they are illegal, which explains why only the criminals have them. a police officer responding to a call of possible firearm involvement is most likely to meet up with somebody carrying an UZI. You also have to be aware that our criminals usualy use the so called "Cop Killer" ammunition such as black talons and teflon bullets that are capbale of penetrating bullet proof vests.

A police officer only has a matter of seconds to act and any delay can cost the lives of the police officer and/or any bystanders. We have many more police officers killed each year by criminals then we have people killed by police officers.

Going back to the original story. I do not know if the police acted properly. I do know that since an innocent person was killed there will be a question as to if they did.

Looking at the story. We know there were at least 20 drunk people involved. There was talk of at least one of them having a gun. There were only 2 police officers inside the club. Now, to react to that in a matter of seconds does leave a very wide door open for mistakes. We are told that a police officer did identify himself as a police officer to the vehicle driver and did fire a shot at the vehicle. But, the driver continued to ram the police van and did not stop.

There was a fight involving the people. There was a drunk person ramming the police van with his vehicle.

Kind of a hard thing to react instantly to, without believing that the driver intended to harm people.
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Woodrow
11-30-2006, 01:41 PM
I should also point out that here in the US public intoxication is illegal. So the man was already committing a crime, if he was drunk and was subject to arrest, the moment he came out of the club and was on public property.
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Ninth_Scribe
11-30-2006, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm not sure where you're from, but the violence police have to face in the U.S. doesn't leave much room for worrying about leg shots and the like very often. When many street criminals have semi-automatic weapons it isn't logical for a cop to be looking for leg wounds. That being said, these individuals were unarmed. None of use know the whole story just yet, but I'm sure when the grand jury investigation is over we will have a good idea what happened.
Too true. I remember another incident where a shop was robbed and the cops took out the kid. It turned out that he robbed the store using a toy gun. It wasn't even real, but no one has time to deal with these details on the field. It could cost lives, s you make a judgement call.

Don't tell me that if 20 guys poured out of a club acting all beligerent, ramming the back of your car, you'd take the time to wonder why. If one of them shouted o his boyz "I've got my gun" - that would be more than enough for me to call it gang violence.

Ninth Scribe
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