Paul confess that he is a liar (Romans 3/7)

[Makky]

:sl:
one of the terrific confessions Of Paul , what i read tonight while i was studing some contradictions in the bible

He said: For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? (Romans3/7)


the following website is suitable for those who want verses from the bible for dawah porpuse , easy search engine and many versions and translations of the bible
http://www.biblegateway.com/

[Umar001]

There is a thread about this already

[Makky]

about this point? or about paul in general?
i searched the fourm before i post it but i guess i'm not good in searching

insha Allah mods will delete or merge it with the main thread

[Trumble]

There is a thread about this already

And, as usual, I can just imagine all those Christians on the end of the dawah saying "you know, isn't it just amazing that in 1,800 years or so nobody noticed that before...." :rolleyes:

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[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you bin saladin;

Here is some more contradictory stuff from Paul

1 Thessalonians. 3:12
May the Lord be generous in increasing your love and make you love one another and the whole human race as much as we love you.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

[Umar001]

And, as usual, I can just imagine all those Christians on the end of the dawah saying "you know, isn't it just amazing that in 1,800 years or so nobody noticed that before...." :rolleyes:

Totally baffled at this point.

[dougmusr]

:sl:
one of the terrific confessions Of Paul , what i read tonight while i was studing some contradictions in the bible

He said: For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? (Romans3/7)


the following website is suitable for those who want verses from the bible for dawah porpuse , easy search engine and many versions and translations of the bible
http://www.biblegateway.com/

Actually, in your attempt to discredit the Bible, you have completely misinterpreted the passage. Try reading verse 8 as well.

Rom 3:8 "And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?--as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say.

Paul is saying that others accuse him of encouraging sin by preaching God's forgiveness and grace.

[Trumble]

Totally baffled at this point.

My point was simply that such attempts to discredit the Bible by pointing out 'errors', 'inconsistencies' and so on are completely pointless. Muslims don't need convincing, and if Christians were going to see any 'contradiction' that would bother them they might just have done so by now. Clearly, as has just been pointed out, Paul isn't 'confessing' anything when the passage is taken in context.

It's not just the Bible, either, many versus in the Qur'an are taken out of context by those hostile to Islam to attempt to 'prove' one thing or another. If people study anything it shouldn't be selected 'contradictions' but the work as a whole, and then make up their own minds on that basis rather than blindly following those with a particular agenda.

[Makky]

Actually, in your attempt to discredit the Bible, you have completely misinterpreted the passage. Try reading verse 8 as well.

Rom 3:8 "And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?--as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say.

Paul is saying that others accuse him of encouraging sin by preaching God's forgiveness and grace.

Yes this is the point indeed : We believe that the belief of salvation and the savior that Paul was preaching for is one of the most perfect evil frauds(according to islam) , and yeah!!! don't you see how much sin encouragement in the christain communities specially in the west
God says in the quran(7/169) :[169] After them succeeded an (evil) generation: they inherited the Book, but they chose (for themselves) the vanities of this world, saying (for excuse): "(Everything) will be forgiven us." (Even so), if similar vanities came their way, they would (again) seize them. Was not the Covenant of the Book taken from them, that they would not ascribe to Allah anything but the truth? And they study what is in the Book. But best for the righteous is the Home in the Hereafter. Will ye not understand?

well! was Paul hypocrite?
Paul in (1 Corinthians 9 ) :
19 For though I am free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law;
21 to those who are outside the law, as outside the law (though not outside the law of God, but under the law of Christ), that I might gain those who are outside the law

[dougmusr]

We believe that the belief of salvation and the savior that Paul was preaching for is one of the most perfect evil frauds(according to islam)

So then you are agreeing with and propogating the same lie against Paul as those who accused him in his day according to Rom 3:7,8.

and yeah!!! don't you see how much sin encouragement in the christain communities specially in the west

I know of no Christian communities in the west. Unlike Islamic countries, most western countries have granted freedom of religion to their citizens, which means many choose no religion. Perhaps you can list a few Christian communities which are examples of your claim.

[169] After them succeeded an (evil) generation: they inherited the Book, but they chose (for themselves) the vanities of this world, saying (for excuse): "(Everything) will be forgiven us." (Even so), if similar vanities came their way, they would (again) seize them.

I don't kow you personally, but I suspect that like me, your life falls short of God's righteous requirements, unless you are claiming to be without sin. Since I doubt that you would elevate yourself to the sinless level, I suspect that the above verse applies to you as well, since you have inherited the book and sinned after receiving it. This also means that you most likely read the sections of the Quran which call God merciful and forgiving, and therefore I would conclude that when you sinned you chose the vanities of the world for a bit, and then asked for forgiveness.

[glo]

And, as usual, I can just imagine all those Christians on the end of the dawah saying "you know, isn't it just amazing that in 1,800 years or so nobody noticed that before...." :rolleyes:

That post made me laugh, Trumble! ;D

I think sometimes people who evangelise/make dawah forget that these debates and discussions have taken place for centuries and centuries!
Sometimes people read things on refutation sites, which really speaks to them, and they are sure that it will convince everybody else too ...
But because these debates are as old as our faiths themselves, for every argument there is a counter-argument; for every 'why-Jesus-cannot-be-God-site' there is a 'why-Jesus-is-God-site' - so by the end of the day it boils down to personal conviction and personal belief!

Personally, I cannot understand how people can read the gospels of Christ and not be blown away by it's message and not see the truth there and then ... but I know it happens, unbelievable as it may seem to me! :uuh: :mmokay: :okay:

Peace

[Makky]

So then you are agreeing with and propogating the same lie against Paul as those who accused him in his day according to Rom 3:7,8.

I don't agree with you in the way you are trying to understand that verse. I showed it to a christian fellow at work .. and he said it honestly that my way to understand it is possible .

I don't understand how do you see it in that way?!

and what i said about encourging sin is my general idea about Paul's selfmade belief ( christianity nowadays)

I know of no Christian communities in the west. Unlike Islamic countries, most western countries have granted freedom of religion to their citizens, which means many choose no religion. Perhaps you can list a few Christian communities which are examples of your claim.

1-Do you know how many christians in Egypt?

2-when you believe that because you believe in jesus as a savior then your sins will be erased or forgived , when you feel there is no problem to disobey GOD . sins will be easier.

I don't kow you personally, but I suspect that like me, your life falls short of God's righteous requirements, unless you are claiming to be without sin. Since I doubt that you would elevate yourself to the sinless level, I suspect that the above verse applies to you as well, since you have inherited the book and sinned after receiving it. This also means that you most likely read the sections of the Quran which call God merciful and forgiving, and therefore I would conclude that when you sinned you chose the vanities of the world for a bit, and then asked for forgiveness.

the difference between the muslim and the christian belief here is: we as muslims believe that Allah (GOD) is merciful and forgiving as you said but muslim doesn't consider 'Allah's forgiveness' a right .

Allah says (7/156) "And ordain for us that which is good, in this life and in the Hereafter: for we have turned unto Thee." He said: "With My Punishment I visit whom I will; but My Mercy extendeth to all things. That (Mercy) I shall ordain for those who do right, and practise regular charity, and those who believe in Our Signs

So his forgiveness is not my right because i'm muslim.. but i should seek his forgiveness .. You can find it clear in the following hadith:

On the authority of Abu Dharr Al-Ghafari, of the prophet is that among the sayings he relates from his Lord is that He said:
"O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another.
O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you. O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you.

[dougmusr]

and what i said about encourging sin is my general idea about Paul's selfmade belief ( christianity nowadays)

Other writings by Paul make clear that his message was not as you believe.
Some examples are:

Eph 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Eph 4:17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. 25 Therefore, putting away lying, "Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor," for we are members of one another.
26 "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath,
27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.

Do you know how many christians in Egypt?

I don't have a clue. My definition of freedom of religion is freedom to both hold and practive one's faith. If Egypt prohibits Christians from openly sharing their faith with Muslims in the public arena, then religion in Egypt is not free and the number of Christians is irrevelant. So how many Christians are there in Egypt who are permitted to share their faith openly without fear of reprisal?

the difference between the muslim and the christian belief here is: we as muslims believe that Allah (GOD) is merciful and forgiving as you said but muslim doesn't consider 'Allah's forgiveness' a right

You have a misunderstanding of the Christian faith. To Christians, forgiveness is a gift from God, not a right. No Christian that I know would dare to stand with their fist in the face of God and demand forgiveness as a right.

The issue I see is that God has righteous requirements beyond our current understanding. As we grow in Him, we see more of His righteousness. Behaviors which did not seem sinful in the past are now sinful for us. This means our slate is always dirty and we don't even know it. This is the reason why the Gospel is Good News. Our forgiveness was purchased by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Col 2: 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

[Malaikah]

Personally, I cannot understand how people can read the gospels of Christ and not be blown away by it's message and not see the truth there and then ... but I know it happens, unbelievable as it may seem to me! :uuh: :mmokay: :okay:

Many reasons exist I'm sure, but perhaps the concept of the trinity itself makes no sense to us so anything that comes after it is irrelevant until the most important parts of the religion are resolved.

:)

[Trumble]

I don't agree with you in the way you are trying to understand that verse. I showed it to a christian fellow at work .. and he said it honestly that my way to understand it is possible .

Would this alternative interpretation have been possible in relation to the original Greek? Or the Latin translations which were heavily relied on in producing the first English ones ? Or translation into Arabic? There seems to me a definite double standard when that reasoning is constantly trotted out in relation to the Qur'an but completely ignored in relation to the Bible or anything else.

I can't answer my question as my Latin is poor and Greek non-existent, but it is worthwhile remembering that the Christian scholars who have debated such matters for over a millennium would have been fully conversant in both languages, and have read the passages being discussed in both languages.

[Umar001]

My point was simply that such attempts to discredit the Bible by pointing out 'errors', 'inconsistencies' and so on are completely pointless. Muslims don't need convincing, and if Christians were going to see any 'contradiction' that would bother them they might just have done so by now. Clearly, as has just been pointed out, Paul isn't 'confessing' anything when the passage is taken in context.

It's not just the Bible, either, many versus in the Qur'an are taken out of context by those hostile to Islam to attempt to 'prove' one thing or another. If people study anything it shouldn't be selected 'contradictions' but the work as a whole, and then make up their own minds on that basis rather than blindly following those with a particular agenda.

I agree that verses should not be taken out of context.

With regards to showing contradictions then I think it is an important part of studing the books and the authenticity of claims found in the book and of the book itself.

With regards to following research of people with agendas sometimes that can be helpfull, for example, if your looking at a wide picture of the Biblical Text, i.e. Linguistics used, Manuscript Evidence, Authorship, Authenticity...ect. It might be good to go to people who only focous on one of these topics and research their findings and verify those findings and then compile all the personal research together. So it might be good for a person to focous on Contradictions for abit and then on Linguistics used for another or something like that.

Also you said ' if Christians were going to see any 'contradiction' that would bother them they might just have done so by now.' I could not disagree more, the reason being that there are different types of Christians, and there maybe types that have not come accross this type of information before so if they read it now it would be news to them. For example, I had Muslims preach to me years before I embraced Islaam, and I didn't give Islaam 2 thoughts, yet after 5 or so years, I the same person who before turned them away was now reading into Islaam, so I mean never too late, its illogical to say 'don't preach or show contradictions because that guy is like 50 he must have been shown some before' its the equivilant of saying 'dont ask that guy to become Christian because Im sure someone asked before and he refused'

Eesa

[glo]

Hey, I liked Isa Abdullah!!!
What's with the new name?

[Makky]

(21st Century King James Version)
Romans 3
1What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there in circumcision?

2Much in every way; chiefly because unto them were committed the oracles of God.


3For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?


4God forbid! Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar. As it is written: "That Thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings, and mightest overcome when Thou art judged."


5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man.)


6God forbid! For then how shall God judge the world?


7For if the truth of God through my lie hath abounded more unto His glory, why am I also yet judged as a sinner?


8And why not say rather (as we are slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say), "Let us do evil, that good may come"? Their ****ation is just!

(Arabic Life Application Bible)

1 إِذَنْ، مَا هُوَ فَضْلُ الْيَهُودِيِّ؟ بَلْ مَا هُوَ نَفْعُ الْخِتَانِ؟

2 إِنَّهُ كَثِيرٌ مِنْ جَمِيعِ الْجِهَاتِ، وَأَهَمُّهَا فِعْلاً أَنَّ أَقْوَالَ اللهِ وُضِعَتْ أَمَانَةً بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ.

3 فَمَاذَا يَحْدُثُ؟ إِنْ كَانَ بَعْضُهُمْ قَدْ أَسَاءُوا الأَمَانَةَ، فَهَلْ يُعَطِّلُ عَدَمُ أَمَانَتِهِمْ أَمَانَةَ اللهِ؟

4 حَاشَا! وَإِنَّمَا، لِيَكُنِ اللهُ صَادِقاً وَكُلُّ إِنْسَانٍ كَاذِباً، كَمَا قَدْ كُتِبَ: «لِكَيْ تَتَبَرَّرَ فِي كَلاَمِكَ، وَتَظْفَرَ مَتَى حَكَمْتَ».

5 وَلَكِنْ، إِنْ كَانَ إِثْمُنَا يُبَيِّنُ بِرَّ اللهِ، فَمَاذَا نَقُولُ؟ أَيَكُونُ اللهُ ظَالِماً إِذَا أَنْزَلَ بِنَا الْغَضَبَ؟ أَتَكَلَّمُ هُنَا بِمَنْطِقِ الْبَشَرِ:

6 حَاشَا! وَإِلاَّ، فَكَيْفَ يَدِينُ اللهُ الْعَالَمَ؟

7 وَلكِنْ، إِنْ كَانَ كَذِبِي يَجْعَلُ صِدْقَ اللهِ يَزْدَادُ لِمَجْدِهِ، فَلِمَاذَا أُدَانُ أَنَا بَعْدُ بِاعْتِبَارِي خَاطِئاً؟

8 أَمَا يُفْتَرَى عَلَيْنَا كَمَا نُتَّهَمُ زُوراً وَيَزْعُمُ بَعْضُهُمْ أَنَّنَا نَقُولُ لِنُمَارِسْ الشُّرُورَ لِكَيْ يَأْتِيَ الْخَيْرُ؟ هَؤُلاَءِ دَيْنُونَتُهُمْ عَادِلَةٌ.
(King James Version)


1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose ****ation is just.


4"]notice here the additional part in the following version which is not in the arabic version or the previous one.

(Today's New International Version)
1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God's faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge." [a]

5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8 Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is just!


who said 'someone might argue'? God?Paul? or who? , and why did the translators in this version add this sentence?! isn't it because its hard to understand properly in the way that most christains want to understand it....I'm Arab, and arabic is my 1st language , the arabic translation is confusing and doubtful..
the clearest context to me is the following one , read and judge

1Then what does a Jew have that others do not have? Or what good is it if a person has been circumcised?

2It is much better in every way. First, God's law was given to the Jews.

3But some Jews did not keep his law. Does that mean that God cannot be trusted?

4No, it does not mean that. God must be true, even if every man is not true. The holy writings say this about God: `People will see that you are right in what you say. You will be without fault when you are judged.'

5When we do wrong things, we show that God is right. What shall we say about that? Does God do wrong when he punishes us? (I speak the way people would think about it.)

6No, he does not. If he did wrong, how could he judge the world?

7Maybe I say what is not true. And that makes people praise God more because he is true. Then why does God still judge me and say I have done wrong?

8Some people say wrong things about us. They say that we say, `Let us do wrong things so that good things will happen.' People who say such things should be punished.

************************************************** *

Allah knows the best