PDA

View Full Version : "He who does not have a sheikh"



IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 11:15 AM
:salamext:

I heard a man esteemed due to his knowledge to say

"he who does not have a sheikh, surely his sheikh is the shaytaan"

what do the brothers and sisters of this forum have to say about this? is it very true? surely sheikhs are important but i dont have one...
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
lolwatever
11-29-2006, 11:16 AM
that's pure madh-habism and sectarianism subhanallah!!
Since when was knowledge localised or restrictred to a particular sheikh or individual!

:sl:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
that's pure madh-habism and sectarianism subhanallah!!
Since when was knowledge localised or restrictred to a particular sheikh or individual!

:sl:
lol bro now you just went off the boat into extreme vill try to understand where its coming from first. Without a sheikh we're all just using our own understanding right? We're all just using various different books which could lead into confusion and thus misleading ourselves and others?

So i think theres much knowledge in this statement, because if theres no man of knowledge to guide us then surely we will be lost because even the quran said "and if you dont know then ask the learned men" and NOTE he did NOT say, "turn to books and read read read" lol, theres a difference...
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
lol bro now you just went off the boat into extreme vill try to understand where its coming from first. Without a sheikh we're all just using our own understanding right? We're all just using various different books which could lead into confusion and thus misleading ourselves and others?

So i think theres much knowledge in this statement, because if theres no man of knowledge to guide us then surely we will be lost because even the quran said "and if you dont know then ask the learned men" and NOTE he did NOT say, "turn to books and read read read" lol, theres a difference...
:?

But since when was the quran adn books of hadith suppose to be encrypted voodoo that needed to be deciphered by some specialised person :uuh: There's a very big difference between learning to make fatwa and learning to understand your religion....

Also even bigger evidence agains that, is the hadith that "towadrs end of time people (around maqdis) will come across papers and raed these papers, and love me based on reading these papers, they are the best of their time" it deosnt say they went and found a shaykh to make them undersatnd wat those papers mean...

MIND YOU our scholars are VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY valuable becasue of their extensive knowledge and undersanding in fiqh etc, but it doesnt take a brainer or a sheikh to learn the main points of your religion from quran and sunnah and books that are compatable with them.

salams :)
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 11:26 AM
lol mashaAllah, bro subhanAllah i must admit that hadith shocked me could you perhaps show me the exact hadith?

but still can we really say that self-learned people learn better or understand better then those who learn from someone more wiser?
Reply

Umar001
11-29-2006, 11:36 AM
I think personally for alot of things you'll need people there, but I don't know if you just have to have one shaykh.

For example, to learn Qu'ran you'll need someone, since you need your tajweed corrected. To learn from books and so on and manners, it is best to have a teacher too, 1 for the same reason they have one at school, plus because you'll learn more if you have a shaykh with you.

I have heard similar statments from that of the one at the start of the Post, though I must say aparently shaykh Al Albani in his early days didn't have a shaykh. And learned by himself in a library to the point that the library even ended up givin him his own room :p

MashAlah
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 11:39 AM
of course, we dont just take one person then blindly follow him lol thats not very smart, we take people that are experts in area's and learn from the area's they've mastered.

Also even the khalifa rashideen and the four imams had sheikhs right? so...
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
lol mashaAllah, bro subhanAllah i must admit that hadith shocked me could you perhaps show me the exact hadith?

but still can we really say that self-learned people learn better or understand better then those who learn from someone more wiser?
salams bro i actually ehard it when i was at a hereafter lecture a year or so ago.. im tryign to remember the wording i heard in arabic, if i find ill let u know insh!

salamz :)
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 11:52 AM
found it alhamdulilah :D

ولنعلم ان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول :
"أي الناس أعجب إيمانا؟ قالوا: أنت يا رسول الله، فقال: ومالي لا أؤمن والوحي يتنزل علي، قالوا: فنحن يا رسول الله قال: وما لكم لا تؤمنون وأنا بين ظهرانيكم، قالوا :فمن يا رسول الله؟ قال: قوم يأتون بعدكم فلا يرون إلا صحفا فيؤمنون بها فأولئك أعجب الناس إيمانا " رواه الترمذي

its not xaclty wat i was lookn 4, but its xactly same point:

the prophet said "who's the most amazing in iman",

they said "you o messenger of allah", he said "and why wouldnt i believe when the revelation is actually coming to me?",

they said "then it is us o prophet of allah?",

he said "and why wouldnt u believe and i'm amognst you?"

they said: "then who o messenger of allah?"

he said: "A people who will come after me, they will only find documents and they will believe in them, they are teh most amazing in iman"

Narrated by tirmidhi...

salamz :D
Reply

FBI
11-29-2006, 11:53 AM
:sl:

I disagree with the original statement, just cause someone might not be studying under a shiek doesn't mean he's taking advice from shaytan.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 11:54 AM
lol bro mashaAllah i read that lol but still we ask for proof for everything and believe once its been authenticated, i still think a sheikh is extremely important to hav...
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

I disagree with the original statement, just cause someone might not be studying under a shiek doesn't mean he's taking advice from shaytan.
True but if you think about it everyone needs someone to keep them in line. Even the khalifa Abu Bakr RA asked for his people to keep him in line, Umar RA said Alhamdulillaah when someone stood up and said they'll straighten him wiv their swords if he goes astray...
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
lol bro mashaAllah i read that lol but still we ask for proof for everything and believe once its been authenticated, i still think a sheikh is extremely important to hav...
yeh ofcourse, but if you're reading sahih bukhari/muslim and the quran just to learn about ur religion, why do you need a sheikh there :?

I'm not understating the role of sheikhs in explaining to us many important fields of fiqh, but not having a sheikh is no excuse for not becoming a top Muslim :)

just incase im being misunderstood... i'm not saying once we read hadith and quran we qualify as scholasr to give fatwa... there's dfif between learning about the most important aspects of ur religion and gaining rewards, and making fatwa. The former doesn't need a certified trainer to take you through that, the latter probably does.

:w:
Reply

Curaezipirid
11-29-2006, 11:59 AM
I don't have any problem with Madhabism, and in fact support that each we need to find that discipline, among those available in Islam, which best supports our mentation.

I believe also that we each need a leader, and in fact, am certain in believing that we all each need each other so as to sustain any work effort, and that leaders are a significant social function. Whom can sustain themselves in Islam without the authority of an external individual?

But as for needing to follow a Sheik so as to not fall to the shaytan . . .
well, I reckon my sons were whom I followed so as to awaken, and they surely are not the shaytan.

Whom did they follow? masha Allah my sons believe in a positive future.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 12:02 PM
lol bro because the sheikh may know more about the hadith your studying and may know other hadith which emcompass that hadith.

Also its hard to become a top muslim wivout a sheikh because theres many things we may get wrong, also if we are considered the top sheikh then there still maybe many things which is wrong wiv us but we just dont know it...
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
lol bro because the sheikh may know more about the hadith your studying and may know other hadith which emcompass that hadith.

Also its hard to become a top muslim wivout a sheikh because theres many things we may get wrong, also if we are considered the top sheikh then there still maybe many things which is wrong wiv us but we just dont know it...
lol ok bro my point is, where's the evidence that says u need a sheikh or ull be misguided :?
Reply

Malaikah
11-29-2006, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
"he who does not have a sheikh, surely his sheikh is the shaytaan"
:sl:

I would agree it would be awesome to learn from a shiekh but to suggest that if you dont have one that your sheikh is the shaitan is just going too far!!!!!

Learning from an educated person is the best, it just sinks in so much better when its explained by speech rather than just reading.:happy:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 12:08 PM
i dont know bro i dont have evidence i came here to collect opinions.

But through history we see that the khalifaa always had people to learn from, the four great imaams learnt from great scholars right? Ibn Taymiyyah must have had a sheikh and we know the sheikhs of ibn katheer and qayyim etc. So it seems to me that all the great scholars of the past had sheikhs and even Musa AS when he knew that theres someone wiser went in search for him (dhul-kifl), this shows that when you understand that your intelligence isnt the best then you should look for others to learn from right?

im not saying you will be misguided if you dont have a sheikh (even though maaaany people do get misguided) im saying that its better to have a sheikh and veeery risky to not have one... right?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 12:08 PM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

I would agree it would be awesome to learn from a shiekh but to suggest that if you dont have one that your sheikh is the shaitan is just going too far!!!!!

Learning from an educated person is the best, it just sinks in so much better when its explained by speech rather than just readying.:happy:
mashaAllah, i 200% agree !
Reply

Umar001
11-29-2006, 12:09 PM
Yea but guys in some ways we are learning from shaykhs not in the way the original poster meant though.

But it is good to have mentor a person or people you can learn from directly, because through that then you get the specific knowledge and it is easier, for example, you have a shaykh, you come to a wrong conclusion, he'd correct you inshaAllah, if you didnt have him there, you might have that wrong conclusion for a while before you are corrected. Same with reading books and so on, your mentors can tell you which books are good and why, and so forth.

The benefits are endless.
Reply

Curaezipirid
11-29-2006, 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
I'm not understating the role of sheikhs in explaining to us many important fields of fiqh, but not having a sheikh is no excuse for not becoming a top Muslim :)

:w:
Now I am wondering if there is a quality to a Sheik that I had not previously recogised.

I know meaning for the word fiqh, but had not before found any association between teaching of fiqh and the nature of those whom are shayk.

Is he just a rich dude whom gets it?

Is there a needed social function in having such role models before us?
As persons to Love in Allah?
As persons about whom to appreciate that there is a specific level of responsibility which we must all, in the end, face.

I can reconcile with a need for knowing such persons because of the example they set.

There is sheik rock at the block there in Sydney, whom I have written and supplied Alms to from my work as a poet, (but never met or been replied to from), so I wonder how soon there will be a Sheik Street here in Brisbane. That is to say, that there is a function in which even a poor man can attain that certainty that a Sheik might have. In Isa we all are the poor.

But all my own commentary aside, what is the meaning in the Arabic word "Sheik" that I was missing?

waram/salams
Reply

Malaikah
11-29-2006, 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
But through history we see that the khalifaa always had people to learn from, the four great imaams learnt from great scholars right? Ibn Taymiyyah must have had a sheikh and we know the sheikhs of ibn katheer and qayyim etc. So it seems to me that all the great scholars of the past had sheikhs and even Musa AS when he knew that theres someone wiser went in search for him (dhul-kifl), this shows that when you understand that your intelligence isnt the best then you should look for others to learn from right?
:sl:

Well first of all, they were in very high positions, giving fatwas and stuff so obviously they needed to have a shiekh to learn from!

Secondly, they lived in a time where they couldnt mass print books about billion diff topics and download lectures by heaps of knowledgable sheikhs of the net etc... their only resource was pretty much a teacher, whereas we have many many diff resources we can use so the need of a teacher isnt as great.

But yeh its still good to have a teacher.
Reply

Curaezipirid
11-29-2006, 12:12 PM
Are Shieks dudes who know about the mechanisms of money, and have earned a reputation through generosity, and also able to make public speeches?

Are they just rich dudes who get it, the fiqh of money, but in public?
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 12:13 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i dont know bro i dont have evidence i came here to collect opinions.

But through history we see that the khalifaa always had people to learn from, the four great imaams learnt from great scholars right? Ibn Taymiyyah must have had a sheikh and we know the sheikhs of ibn katheer and qayyim etc. So it seems to me that all the great scholars of the past had sheikhs and even Musa AS when he knew that theres someone wiser went in search for him (dhul-kifl), this shows that when you understand that your intelligence isnt the best then you should look for others to learn from right?

im not saying you will be misguided if you dont have a sheikh (even though maaaany people do get misguided) im saying that its better to have a sheikh and veeery risky to not have one... right?
bro.. i made it obvious lol... to learn teh basics of ur religion and to pelase allah and to become a great Muslim you so very don't need a sheikh... Even though having one is a bonus no doubt!!!!!!! but to say taht their sheikh is shaytan, is a devlish thing in itself.

plus sum ppl hav misguided sheikhs and get misguided ;) (no don't go warning me read my prev posts b4 nemod thinks of jumping 2that!) So guidance really is in Allah's hands not in the sheikhs hands. Afterall some of the devietn sects founders where once upon a time students under top sheikhs (e.g. mutazilah)

dont misunderstand me tho.... i'm just saying that statement is wrong by definition. no evidence to support that.

salamz :D
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 12:15 PM
salaam,

yes jazakAllah khair to all the contributions conclusion is:

Can be a great muslim without a sheikh but can be even better with a righteous sheikh. Statement at the start of the thread isnt completely correct although a sheikh is recommended.

done :D


:salamext: wa barakAllah feekum
Reply

Malaikah
11-29-2006, 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
Are Shieks dudes who know about the mechanisms of money, and have earned a reputation through generosity, and also able to make public speeches?

Are they just rich dudes who get it, the fiqh of money, but in public?
:sl:

lol what? A sheikh is someone who has really good knowledge of Islam! lol
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
salaam,

yes jazakAllah khair to all the contributions conclusion is:

Can be a great muslim without a sheikh but can be even better with a righteous sheikh. Statement at the start of the thread isnt completely correct although a sheikh is recommended.

done :D


:salamext: wa barakAllah feekum

spoton sis ;)
Reply

Curaezipirid
11-29-2006, 12:27 PM
I don't have a teacher in Islam, because I get it faster than other pupils and am wanton to disrupt lessons for others by leaping ahead.

That is no teacher except for Aboriginal Australians whom are remembering being Muslim. Also computer screens.

I think that my problem is only fear of not being able to commit to any specific local community because of conditions I am living with that are external to the Ummah and unable to be changed; but also a fear that I will be short with a teacher when I can perceive the depth of the teaching more fully. So I am focussing my attention upon imparting what I am learning to other Australians without any Muslim education but whom are interested in learning. Teaching is the only way to become certain as to whether you know. Today I was talking with Socialist youth about what submission in Allah is, and they told me that they used to go sneaking up to their local Mosque at night for the veiw, but perhaps they had only been on too many drugs. Maybe it is becoming an Australian teenagers thing to be rebellious in? Better that they sneak around the Mosque to find out what Muslims are getting from Prayer than sneak around the pub or highschool at night, where they might get themselves into trouble.

But the thing is that youth here who use drugs are being misinformed by drug dealers that Muslims are easy, and that the veiw up in the Mosque is worth paying more for drugs to get a look in on. Actually the socialist youth had been caused to want to learn about Islam, and he has gone on to study comparative religion.

Is a Sheik's job inclusive of preventing such occurrances as drug dealers selling look ins on Muslim prayer? Because if so then Sheik Rock could do with a hand.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

lol what? A sheikh is someone who has really good knowledge of Islam! lol
or if we take it from the merriam-websters online dictionary it means:

1 : an Arab chief
2 usually sheik : a man held to be irresistibly attractive to romantic young women


;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
Now I am wondering if there is a quality to a Sheik that I had not previously recogised.

I know meaning for the word fiqh, but had not before found any association between teaching of fiqh and the nature of those whom are shayk.

Is he just a rich dude whom gets it?

Is there a needed social function in having such role models before us?
As persons to Love in Allah?
As persons about whom to appreciate that there is a specific level of responsibility which we must all, in the end, face.

I can reconcile with a need for knowing such persons because of the example they set.

There is sheik rock at the block there in Sydney, whom I have written and supplied Alms to from my work as a poet, (but never met or been replied to from), so I wonder how soon there will be a Sheik Street here in Brisbane. That is to say, that there is a function in which even a poor man can attain that certainty that a Sheik might have. In Isa we all are the poor.

But all my own commentary aside, what is the meaning in the Arabic word "Sheik" that I was missing?

waram/salams
lol that was a joke sis right :D
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
spoton sis ;)
bro its you n zAk thats the girls, lets not take me down wiv u :p

but jazakAllah khair everyone, appreciate inputs wa barakAllah feekum
Reply

Malaikah
11-29-2006, 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
2 usually sheik : a man held to be irresistibly attractive to romantic young women
:sl:

Am I missing something here?! :uuh:

Lets just stick with my definition otherwise we will have some jealous young men and some young women who would be better off with out a shiekh due to gaze-lowering issues. ;D
Reply

Curaezipirid
11-29-2006, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

lol what? A sheikh is someone who has really good knowledge of Islam! lol
OK, but I don't know if I get what the difference in function is between an Imam and a Sheik?

Is a Sheik a more productive teacher, or just more famous or richer, OR, is it that there are specific aspects of the full teaching which a Sheik is in more precise knowledge of than an Imam, and other aspects which an Imam is in more precise knowledge of ? ? ?

(I could tell about my embarrassing mixing up by accident of the word "mufti" and "mullah" but it might be too embarrassing.)
Reply

Curaezipirid
11-29-2006, 12:33 PM
Ah ha, I get it, the Sheiks are cooler! Cos of the sunnies.
Reply

Malaikah
11-29-2006, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
OK, but I don't know if I get what the difference in function is between an Imam and a Sheik?
:sl:

Good question, I have no idea. :?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 12:36 PM
Imaams a leader i gess, sheikhs more of a teacher :?
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
bro its you n zAk thats the girls, lets not take me down wiv u :p

but jazakAllah khair everyone, appreciate inputs wa barakAllah feekum
ok i won't bringout some private forum niqab related secrets here :okay:

yes back to topic...

Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

Am I missing something here?! :uuh:

Lets just stick with my definition otherwise we will have some jealous young men and some young women who would be better off with out a shiekh due to gaze-lowering issues. ;D
yeh dere's this other weird definition amongst shaytan class arabs......

:offended:

:w:
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
Imaams a leader i gess, sheikhs more of a teacher :?
yep btw... 4xample... personally i've had dozens of personal sheikhs teaching me face2face.... but i got freidns mashalah within 3 years of practising they got like a billion times more knowledge and sincerity than me!! (i barely have either of both!) :offended: may allah guide us ameen!

salamz
Reply

Curaezipirid
11-29-2006, 12:43 PM
I suddenly got it.

It is true.

If you don't have a Sheik then Shaytan are your Sheik!

It is becaue Shaytan poke around in the message money imprints in your mentation, while a Sheik is the manager of in Allah.
Reply

Curaezipirid
11-29-2006, 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
yep btw... 4xample... personally i've had dozens of personal sheikhs teaching me face2face.... but i got freidns mashalah within 3 years of practising they got like a billion times more knowledge and sincerity than me!! (i barely have either of both!) :offended: may allah guide us ameen!

salamz
Having listened to dozens of lectures is not the same as buying the records of all of one specific Sheik's teaching.

It is a similar function to an old part of much of Asian, and Australian tradition. Well, the same really, except that in Islam a Sheik will be a better person.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
11-29-2006, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
ok i won't bringout some private forum niqab related secrets here :okay:
LOL say one sentence and the whole forum remembers it for life :hiding:

yeh dere's this other weird definition amongst shaytan class arabs......

:offended:

:w:

lol what definition is that? :?
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by Curaezipirid
Having listened to dozens of lectures is not the same as buying the records of all of one specific Sheik's teaching.

It is a similar function to an old part of much of Asian, and Australian tradition. Well, the same really, except that in Islam a Sheik will be a better person.
no lol.. i mean ive actually been taught... not just attend lectures lol..
e.g. 3 years under a particular individual at masjid, then he left and got transferred 2 sum1 else for a few years etc...

neways khayr insahlah
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
lol what definition is that? :?
:sl:
its like hwo they call the princes 'sheikh' n stuff... its a cultural thing... term of 'respect' for those sorta flippin coconuts.
:w:
Reply

Umar001
11-29-2006, 01:02 PM
Shaykh = Respectable term for older people, thats what I been taught, I go masjid and I say Salam Aleykum Shaykh so and so, but I might have more knowledge than him but I respect him and use that tittle cos of his age.
Reply

Re.TiReD
11-29-2006, 02:09 PM
:sl:

a shaykh's gonna tell you bout Islam, increase your knowledge loaaaads, answer any questions (he is knowlegable and well versed in the Quran and Ahadeeth of course), if you dont have one fair enough (I didnt even know it was possible to 'HAVE' one 1 :D ) but then are you gonna live life and follow the deen as you see it to be correct? you got peepz to guide you and help you along so I reckon you should benefit from em :w:
Reply

vpb
11-29-2006, 05:15 PM
that's pure madh-habism
I think you dont know what is the difference between madhhab and sect? They are wayyyy a lot different things, and there have been madhhabs (especially the 4 main ones)for 1200 years, and these were build upon the best scholars our history has ever had, and you come and say now "that's pure madhhabism"? what does it give u the right to say like that?

Are we trying to compare ourselves with a person like imam ahmed for ex. who memorized over a 1 milion hadiths? without sheikhs you would not even know which hadith is sahi and which is daif. are you trying to compare youselves with some people who stay 24 hours in chairs to study a verse, and try to write a single book for 40 years and work on it? are you like ebu hanife who for 40-50 years prayed the fajr with the isha wudu? these people have a gift from Allah swt and that is knowledge and they have bigger understanding then we do.

example is when prophet saws put his hand on one of the scholars can't recall, and asked Allah swt to make him a good scholar? why did the prophet saws do that?

we have to follow the learned man, and Allah swt said that he does not send the majority of scholars in dalalet.
Reply

Curaezipirid
11-29-2006, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
lol that was a joke sis right :D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :happy: reading back I surprise my self with how far I push the limits of belief into absurd nonsensicality, the truths we are afraid of are so very similar to utter nonsense, and sometimes it helps to relegate the truth into that status just so as to not be too afraid. Here tonight I have in mind a friend whom knows certain facts but covers them over by feigning to believe in nonsensical imiatations of fact. Believing in approximations to fact rather than actual fact, only so as to reduce fear, is the substance that this world which will end is made of. (there is a real Sheik Rock, but no real Sheik Street, -yet) (how about . . . no that would be just too bad) Actually Sheiks are really too good.

Originally Posted by lolwatever
no lol.. i mean ive actually been taught... not just attend lectures lol..
e.g. 3 years under a particular individual at masjid, then he left and got transferred 2 sum1 else for a few years etc...

neways khayr insahlah
Oh, tar. The point I was refering to was only that to comprehend the social function of a Sheik, you might need to have made a financial exchange with/to/in respect of.

The money job can even be regarded as a harder acheivment to complete than that of an Imam. That is the work of sustaining the Imam of money.
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
I think you dont know what is the difference between madhhab and sect? They are wayyyy a lot different things, and there have been madhhabs (especially the 4 main ones)for 1200 years, and these were build upon the best scholars our history has ever had, and you come and say now "that's pure madhhabism"? what does it give u the right to say like that?

Are we trying to compare ourselves with a person like imam ahmed for ex. who memorized over a 1 milion hadiths? without sheikhs you would not even know which hadith is sahi and which is daif. are you trying to compare youselves with some people who stay 24 hours in chairs to study a verse, and try to write a single book for 40 years and work on it? are you like ebu hanife who for 40-50 years prayed the fajr with the isha wudu? these people have a gift from Allah swt and that is knowledge and they have bigger understanding then we do.

example is when prophet saws put his hand on one of the scholars can't recall, and asked Allah swt to make him a good scholar? why did the prophet saws do that?

we have to follow the learned man, and Allah swt said that he does not send the majority of scholars in dalalet.
:?

if you hav a specific sheikh that u really like... it's common to say "i'm on the madhhab of so and so".... there's nothing wrong with that as long as ur not blind following...

for example ibn taymiyah would say "and i'm on the madhab of abu yazeed" etc...

sect is when u go out of ur way to make ur own beliefs or things like that. i dont think that statement is sectarianism as much as it is blind madhabism.

:w:
Reply

vpb
11-29-2006, 07:50 PM
lolwatever, dont worry bro :).
madhhabs are mercy from Allah swt.
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
lolwatever, dont worry bro :).
madhhabs are mercy from Allah swt.
:sl:

madhhabs are like anything else, can be catastrophy and can be helpful.

For blind followers, its a punishment from Allah becasue they start to hate people and love people not for sake of Allah, but for the sake of their sheikh or based on who they follow.

For people with knowledge, madhhabs are no more than different opinions which they can analyse, make dua and choose what theyt hink is the most valid opinion.

salams :D
Reply

Goku
11-29-2006, 11:56 PM
Didnt Prohpet Muhammad (PBUH) say that there will be those in the Ummah who will think music and alcohol is halal? A hadith on something like that. I am not sure whether music is halal or haram, may Allah (SWT) increase our knowledge, Ameen.
Reply

lolwatever
11-29-2006, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Goku
Didnt Prohpet Muhammad (PBUH) say that there will be those in the Ummah who will think music and alcohol is halal? A hadith on something like that. I am not sure whether music is halal or haram, may Allah (SWT) increase our knowledge, Ameen.
:sl:
yep... that means they will make what is haram halal, just ike people of book.

salams :)

:w:
Reply

Goku
11-30-2006, 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
:sl:
yep... that means they will make what is haram halal, just ike people of book.

salams :)

:w:
Walaikum Salam

Yep. I was reading an article from a Qur'an only submitters website claiming music and singing are halal and trying to use the Qur'an to justify it. They accuse the Hadith believing Muslims of almost disrecpecting the message of Muhammad PBUH and claim Muhammad PBUH followed the Qur'an only. It was compelling, and wots confusing is other scholars say music and singing are haram, the hadith embracing scholars.
Reply

Skillganon
11-30-2006, 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
:salamext:

I heard a man esteemed due to his knowledge to say

"he who does not have a sheikh, surely his sheikh is the shaytaan"

what do the brothers and sisters of this forum have to say about this? is it very true? surely sheikhs are important but i dont have one...
I think the statement is too misleading. (I am not accusing but It sounds to close to what some sufi will say.)
It is important when someone don't understand something is to ask someone who know's.
Islam does not say you have to be under the guidance of or have a personal sheikh. Nor does it say one can't use Quran & the Sunnah.

Quran and the Sunnah is the source of knowledge of scholars in the first place.
One should not intepret it as how anybody desires, Islam fundamentally has already been explained clearly, and we have authentic sources for it.

Nor is it required for one to be under a particular sheikh, I am not saying you should not listen to them or seek answer's from them, which I advice one should do, but one should not follow blindly without knowing where it comes from.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-30-2006, 12:56 AM
:sl:

The statement is correct in essence. A person should have a shaykh he trusts to ask Fiqh questions etc.

But you need to understand what that particular statement means when it is said by the ones that say it, and what it entails by those who use that statement. To them, to have a shaykh means, you give him 'bai'ah', a pledge that enatils you follow everything that say, and not question them even if they tell you to go and sleep someplace, eat something etc. The principle of this saying to them is that the student when he has given Bai'ah to his Shaykh is like 'a dead body in his [the Shaykh's] hands'. Where is this in the Sunnah ? Where does the Quran command us to absoluetly have a shaykh where one has to obey him everything?

Shaykhul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah said:

"It is not upon anyone to ascribe himself to a particular Shaykh and to have walaa‘ with those who follow him, or to have ‘adaa based upon that. Rather, he should have walaa‘ for everyone from the people of eemaan (i.e. he is a Muslim) and is known to have taqwaa (piety and obedience to Allaah and that which He has ordered and prohibited), from the Shaykhs, or from others. No one should be particularised with an increase in walaa’, except if he sees in him greater eemaan and taqwaa. So precedence is given to those whom Allaah and His Messenger have given them to. Allaah the Exalted said:

"O Mankind! Indeed we created you from a man and a woman and made you into tribes and nations so that you may know one another. Indeed the most noble of you with Allaah are those that have the most taqwaa (piety)" [Sooratul Hujuraat 49:13]
Majmoo‘ul Fataawaa (11/512).

"Indeed the people of the Sunnah do not follow anyone (unconditionally) other than the Messenger of Allaah who does not speak from desires, rather it is nothing less than Revelation sent down to him. So it is obligatory to affirm all that he informs, and to obey all that he commands. This status is not given to anyone else from this Ummah. Rather, everyone's statement can be taken or left except for that of the Messenger of Allaah. So whoever sets up an individual other than the Messenger of Allaah; such that the one who loves and agrees with him is reckoned to be from Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa‘ah, and the one who differs with him is reckoned to be from the people of innovations and sectarianism - as happens with those groups who follow certain Imaams of kalaam (rhetorical speech) - then the person doing so is from the people of innovation, deviation and sectarianism."
Majmoo‘ul Fataawaa (3/346-347).

"Indeed many - from the people who say such things - follow their desires in this, in order to elevate their egos, or to gain leadership, or whatever is connected to it. Their intention is not to make the Word of Allaah uppermost, nor is it to make the Religion purely for Allaah. Indeed they have hatred for those who oppose them, even if it is a mujtahid (a scholar striving his utmost to arrive at the truth) who is excused and whom Allaah is not angry with. Likewise, they are pleased with those who agree with them - even if it is an ignorant person with evil intentions - who neither has any knowledge or good intent. This leads them to praise those who Allaah and His Messenger have not praise and to censure those whom Allaah and His Messenger have not censured. It also causes them to have walaa’ (love and allegiance) and ‘adaa (enmity and hatred) based upon their own self-desires and not upon the Religion of Allaah and His Messenger ... So whoever does this will only bring about fitan (trials and tribulations) between the people."
Minhaajus-Sunnatin Nabawiyyah (5/225).
Reply

Woodrow
11-30-2006, 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by Goku
Walaikum Salam

Yep. I was reading an article from a Qur'an only submitters website claiming music and singing are halal and trying to use the Qur'an to justify it. They accuse the Hadith believing Muslims of almost disrecpecting the message of Muhammad PBUH and claim Muhammad PBUH followed the Qur'an only. It was compelling, and wots confusing is other scholars say music and singing are haram, the hadith embracing scholars.
Of course Muhammad (pbuh) followed the Qur'an only. The Hadith is essentialy the examples of how he followed the Qur'an. Which is why we are to follow the hadeeth. It is our guide as to how to obey the Qur'an, not a seperate set of rules.

That is only my opinion as to what the Ahadeeth are and why we should obey them. If I am in error astragfirullah
Reply

Goku
11-30-2006, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Of course Muhammad (pbuh) followed the Qur'an only. The Hadith is essentialy the examples of how he followed the Qur'an. Which is why we are to follow the hadeeth. It is our guide as to how to obey the Qur'an, not a seperate set of rules.

That is only my opinion as to what the Ahadeeth are and why we should obey them. If I am in error astragfirullah
Salam

Yep but the divisions can get confusing, here is the article, read and give your views Insha'Allah:

PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE MATERIAL FROM ANTI-HADITH SITES.
Reply

Malaikah
11-30-2006, 01:59 AM
:sl:
The sincere Muslim who is following the Quran will not find in the Quran ANY PROHIBITION whatsoever OF MUSIC OR SINGING.
Subhanallah! So now Imam Ahmed, Imam Shafa'i, Imam Malik, Imam Abu Hanifa and Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah are all insincere Muslims are they?! They ALL said music was haram!! So now this guy here thinks he knows more than them?

Qoute removed because it was anti-hadith
OMG!! :X What about the signs of judgement day huh?! Arent they 'predicting the future'. Astagfurillah! The prophet got his knowlegde from Allah swt!!

This person has no idea what he is talking about, please remove this article from your post while I find you a more credible one.
Reply

Malaikah
11-30-2006, 02:05 AM
:sl:

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The view of the four Imaams is that all kinds of musical instruments are haraam. It was reported in Saheeh al-Bukhaari and elsewhere that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that there would be among his ummah those who would allow zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments, and he said that they would be transformed into monkeys and pigs… None of the followers of the imaams mentioned any dispute concerning the matter of music. (al-Majmoo’, 11/576).
http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=5000&ln=eng&txt=

Inshaallah read the rest of the article (follow the link) and any uncertainty you have will be gone.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
11-30-2006, 02:07 AM
:sl:

Members are reminded to remain on topic :)
Reply

Goku
11-30-2006, 02:09 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:


Subhanallah! So now Imam Ahmed, Imam Shafa'i, Imam Malik, Imam Abu Hanifa and Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah are all insincere Muslims are they?! They ALL said music was haram!! So now this guy here thinks he knows more than them?

* "The Prophet SAWS said, "There will be (at some future time) people from my
ummah (community of Muslims) who will seek to make lawful: fornication, the
wearing of silk by men), wine-drinking, and the use of musical
instruments(ma'azif). Some people will stay at the side of a mountain and
when their shepherd comes in the evening to ask them for his needs, they will
say, 'return to us tomorrow.' Then Allah will destroy them during the night
by causing the mountain to fall on them, while he changes others into apes and
swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of
Resurrection.(related by Imam Al-Bukhari in Fat-hul Baari, graded sahih)

FIRST, God teaches us in the Quran that the Prophet Muhammad did not know the future. This will immediately expose the falsehood of this hadith and similar ones and expose the hypocrisy of those who claim to be Muslims but refuse to believe God in the Quran. God told them Muhammad did not know the future.

OMG!! :X What about the signs of judgement day huh?! Arent they 'predicting the future'. Astagfurillah! The prophet got his knowlegde from Allah swt!!

This person has no idea what he is talking about, please remove this article from your post while I find you a more credible one.
Salaam Sis

It is a bit strange, indeed.
Reply

Goku
11-30-2006, 02:13 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:



http://islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=5000&ln=eng&txt=

Inshaallah read the rest of the article (follow the link) and any uncertainty you have will be gone.
:sl:

Thats a more informative article, Mash'Allah

Jazak Allah Khair.
Reply

Skillganon
11-30-2006, 02:19 AM
Yes, please make another topic if one trying to discuss music, which is not so clear-cut subject. I know everyone do tend to go off-topic sometimes.
Reply

lolwatever
11-30-2006, 03:05 AM
yup back2topico :D
Reply

Skillganon
11-30-2006, 03:37 AM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
yup back2topico :D
Yes we are back on topic: Anything to add?
Reply

lolwatever
11-30-2006, 03:41 AM
nope :D


Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
salaam,

yes jazakAllah khair to all the contributions conclusion is:

Can be a great muslim without a sheikh but can be even better with a righteous sheikh. Statement at the start of the thread isnt completely correct although a sheikh is recommended.

done :D


:salamext: wa barakAllah feekum
:threadclo


:p
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-18-2017, 06:26 AM
  2. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-28-2010, 09:21 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-17-2009, 05:17 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-09-2007, 07:01 AM
  5. Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-07-2006, 08:54 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!