PDA

View Full Version : Jesus{pbuh} for Jews or entire humanity?



Mateen
12-05-2006, 09:11 AM
Salam,

I read these following verses from the Bible.

Matthew


And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon.


[22] And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and cried, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely possessed by a demon."
[23] But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying after us."
[24] He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


Why did not Jesus{pbuh} preach the non-jews?

Jesus{pbuh} was sent to remind the Jews of the scripture they had forgotten, and he was not sent for the entire mankind.

Wassalam.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Mattsrwv
12-05-2006, 12:15 PM
Peace to You,

Like the Qu'ran, the Bible is a single literary work; portions of it cannot be taken to the exclusion of the rest of the book.

In this case, Christ grants the woman's request after she demonstrates her faith and humility:
Mt 15:24-28
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me," she cried.
He replied, "it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
Then Jesus answered, "You have great faith! Your resquest is granted!" And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

The most moving conversion stories in the Bible are examples of gentiles converting ahead of Jews.

Furthermore, the "lost sheep of the House of Israel" is also an indication that Chirst was here for all humanity. After the 10 Northern tribes split off from Judah and Benjamin, they were subjugated by the Medo-Persians and Babylon. They intermarried with their captors and within a few generations became racially indistinct. The lost sheep of the House of Israel were now in the rest of the world.
Reply

Mateen
12-05-2006, 01:19 PM
Salam,

Not convinced though.

Wassalam.
Reply

Umar001
12-05-2006, 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by Mattsrwv
Peace to You,
And upon you be peace :) Welcome to the Forum and hope you have a very beneficial time :)

Originally Posted by Mattsrwv
Like the Qu'ran, the Bible is a single literary work; portions of it cannot be taken to the exclusion of the rest of the book.
Whether its all one book is debatable, but I agree noone should take things out of context.

Originally Posted by Mattsrwv
In this case, Christ grants the woman's request after she demonstrates her faith and humility:
Mt 15:24-28
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel."
The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me," she cried.
He replied, "it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
Then Jesus answered, "You have great faith! Your resquest is granted!" And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

But whether he grants her the thing or not is not the point, he might have granted her something but he made it clear, that he is sent to the House of Israel.



Originally Posted by Mattsrwv
Furthermore, the "lost sheep of the House of Israel" is also an indication that Chirst was here for all humanity. After the 10 Northern tribes split off from Judah and Benjamin, they were subjugated by the Medo-Persians and Babylon. They intermarried with their captors and within a few generations became racially indistinct. The lost sheep of the House of Israel were now in the rest of the world.
Just because the house of Israel was in different places does not mean that JEsus was sent to the other people there. As the Bible author states 'The House of Israel' if some of those people are on the north pole then it means those too, but not the rest of the community. It's like saying I was sent to black people, does it mean the white people that black people live with in the Rich areas of England? No, black people = black people, house of Israel = house of Israel.

I think there are other paths to tackle this and I am expecting to see them brought forward :)

Eesa.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
AvarAllahNoor
12-05-2006, 02:25 PM
So why the claim 'Jesus died for all humanity'?
Reply

Mattsrwv
12-05-2006, 03:37 PM
To answer, I guess I could do with a little education on Islam's view of Jesus Christ. Obviously, you acknowledge His exisitence here in an historical sense, or this discussion would be pointless.

I do not wish to deviate from the current thread, but could someone briefly educate me on Islam's opinion on the significance of Christ?

This forum is a blessing in a world that attempts to insulate itself from thoughtful religious discussion.
Reply

Umar001
12-05-2006, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Mattsrwv
To answer, I guess I could do with a little education on Islam's view of Jesus Christ. Obviously, you acknowledge His exisitence here in an historical sense, or this discussion would be pointless.

I do not wish to deviate from the current thread, but could someone briefly educate me on Islam's opinion on the significance of Christ?

This forum is a blessing in a world that attempts to insulate itself from thoughtful religious discussion.

Maybe you could ask in the Basic of Islam section, which I think would provide you with some good answers, but here's the basic:

Jesus peace be upon him, was born of a virgin woman named Mary, peace be upon her, who was chaste and one of the women in the world to have attained a very high level of piety.

Jesus, spoke in the cradle and performed Miracles and always acknowledged to his people that he dones these by the power of God, Jesus was sent to confirm the Torah and give his people the Injeel, Evangel, which contained guidance and light for his people, he was sent to the children of Israel alone and his message was for a time period only.

Jesus was saved from the crucifixtion and evil plans of his enemies and take up to heaven by Almighty God to await an appointed time where he will again come down as a sign for the last hour, i.e. the close time of judgement day, and he will basically break all the myths sorrouding him and his position.


Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
So why the claim 'Jesus died for all humanity'?
Well, if you look at the end of the Gospel of Mark, I think it is, there is a later insertion that Jesus apparently gave a command to spread the gospel to all people, similarly, Paul claimed that Jesus had come to Jews and gentiles alike, why did he claim that? I don't know his motives, but thats what he said, and that is what we find.


Eesa. :)
Reply

Mattsrwv
12-05-2006, 05:27 PM
[QUOTE=Al Habeshi;586804][B]
Maybe you could ask in the Basic of Islam section, which I think would provide you with some good answers, but here's the basic:

My thanks.


[B]Well, if you look at the end of the Gospel of Mark, I think it is, there is a later insertion that Jesus apparently gave a command to spread the gospel to all people, similarly, Paul claimed that Jesus had come to Jews and gentiles alike, why did he claim that? I don't know his motives, but thats what he said, and that is what we find.

It may be found in Mark, but I am more familar with the command as given in Matthew 28:18-20:
And Jesus came unto them, saying, “All authority is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And I am with you always, to the very end of the world."

Paul makes his claims based on the fact that he was carrying out that very commmand.
Reply

Keltoi
12-05-2006, 05:32 PM
Al Habeshi explained it fairly well. Jesus sent his disciples to spread his message to all people, not only Jews.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
12-05-2006, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Mattsrwv

It may be found in Mark, but I am more familar with the command as given in Matthew 28:18-20:

And Jesus came unto them, saying, “All authority is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And I am with you always, to the very end of the world."

Paul makes his claims based on the fact that he was carrying out that very commmand.
[B]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Je Ke Fateh (Pure Ones Belong To God, And Victory To God)

Who was carrying out the command Jesus or Paul:?
Reply

Mattsrwv
12-05-2006, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Je Ke Fateh (Pure Ones Belong To God, And Victory To God)

Who was carrying out the command Jesus or Paul:?

Jesus gave the command, Paul, and the other Apostles, carried out the command by not staying in Jerusalem, but instead travelling the world preaching.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
12-05-2006, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by Mattsrwv
Jesus gave the command, Paul, and the other Apostles, carried out the command by not staying in Jerusalem, but instead travelling the world preaching.
Thought as much Thanks!

Jesus, was a messenger after all, so those that state he was only meant for the 'House of Israel' are mistaken.
Reply

Umar001
12-05-2006, 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Mattsrwv
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
[B]
Maybe you could ask in the Basic of Islam section, which I think would provide you with some good answers, but here's the basic:

My thanks.


[B]Well, if you look at the end of the Gospel of Mark, I think it is, there is a later insertion that Jesus apparently gave a command to spread the gospel to all people, similarly, Paul claimed that Jesus had come to Jews and gentiles alike, why did he claim that? I don't know his motives, but thats what he said, and that is what we find.
It may be found in Mark, but I am more familar with the command as given in Matthew 28:18-20:
And Jesus came unto them, saying, “All authority is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And I am with you always, to the very end of the world."

Paul makes his claims based on the fact that he was carrying out that very commmand.
Well actually when we take a look at the background then it is not so simple, the book of Mark is considered the first book to be written out of the 4 Gospels, and the works of Paul, in some cases were written before.

In the book of mark we see a later addition. This is why the Bible states:

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))
So, we have the Gospels stating Jesus said he was sent to the house of israel. Also we have Paul preaching, the Gospel given to him is not given to anyone else, and that according to what he has been told that the Gospel was for jew and gentile. And then we see that we then have a comandment added into some manuscripts putting into the lips of Jesus that people should preach to the whole world.

Pretty convinient, specially when Jesus first said, only the lost sheep of Israel.


Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Thought as much Thanks!

Jesus, was a messenger after all, so those that state he was only meant for the 'House of Israel' are mistaken.
No, cos a messenger is sent to whom so ever the message is for, so if the message is for the house of Israel then he is sent to them, no mistake.
Reply

dougmusr
12-06-2006, 02:08 AM
I believe that God picked Israel and His intent was to make Himself known to all nations through Israel.

Exodus 9:
3 And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. 5 'Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."

Isaiah prophecies that Jesus is a light to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

The Quran testifies that it was Jesus who was strengtheded by the Holy Spirit.

002.087 YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

Isaiah 42:6 "I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles, 7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the prison, Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,

Christ quotes this verse:

Luke 4:18 18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD. '

If there are captives, blind, brokenhearted, and poor in other nations, praise God, Christ came for them.
Reply

Mattsrwv
12-06-2006, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
I believe that God picked Israel and His intent was to make Himself known to all nations through Israel.
Right. This is also evidenced by the succession of the covenants made throughout time. Each covenant encompasses more and more people until Christ is sent to include all of mankind. These covenants form a concentric history (as opposed to linear Western history) of God's people with each covenant building on, not nullifying, the last:
Adam: Marital
Noah: Familial (4 marriages)
Abraham [may his name be a blessing]: Tribal (many marriages)
Moses: National (12 tribes)
David: Kingdom (subjugating other nations)
Christ: Universal, for all peoples.

So not only does scripture declare that Christ is for all mankind, but so does the logical progression of history.
Reply

Umar001
12-06-2006, 02:34 AM
Hi Dougmusr,

Originally Posted by dougmusr
I believe that God picked Israel and His intent was to make Himself known to all nations through Israel.

Exodus 9:
3 And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 4 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. 5 'Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel."
This is just showing us that God was going to make Israel the nation "above all people"

Originally Posted by dougmusr
Isaiah prophecies that Jesus is a light to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

What indicates that Isaiah is talking about Jesus?


Originally Posted by dougmusr
Isaiah 42:6 "I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles, 7 To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the prison, Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

Isaiah 61:1 "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, Because the LORD has anointed Me To preach good tidings to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives, And the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the day of vengeance of our God; To comfort all who mourn,

Christ quotes this verse:

Luke 4:18 18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD. '

If there are captives, blind, brokenhearted, and poor in other nations, praise God, Christ came for them.

The stuff in Isaiah does nowhere show that it was Jesus being spoke of, also, the author of Luke claims that Jesus said such a thing, apart from that, there is nothing to indicate that Jesus is the person spoke of in Isaiah.
Reply

dougmusr
12-06-2006, 04:53 AM
This is just showing us that God was going to make Israel the nation "above all people"
Actually, the fact that God said 6 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' indicates that their mission was greater than that of mere nationhood. A nation of priests have no function without parishioners.
Reply

Umar001
12-06-2006, 10:23 AM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
Actually, the fact that God said 6 'And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' indicates that their mission was greater than that of mere nationhood. A nation of priests have no function without parishioners.
What do you mean? That this shows the Jews would be a nation of priests and their parish would be gentiles?

Well, that seems like a big jump, a kingdom of priests and holy nation, does this mean priests to others? Are all the Jews going to be priests? I doubt it, rather, priests to themselves, to each other, and even if it were priests for others, we know what that is like, it could be like Judaism is now.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 308
    Last Post: 01-26-2010, 05:35 PM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-08-2009, 01:54 AM
  3. Replies: 68
    Last Post: 02-02-2009, 06:35 AM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!