Yvonne Ridley’s Speech at EWAMY, cairo

[Dawud_uk]

Subject: Yvonne Ridley’s Speech at EWAMY, Cairo (Egypt)
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 23:00:39 +0000


Yvonne Ridley’s Speech at EWAMY, Cairo (Egypt)
Posted by Ibn Juferi November 28, 2006

Yvonne Ridley

The Arabic language is one of the cornerstones of Islam, as we have heard today from our brother, so I do apologize in advance that this is one of the many areas of Islam I’ve yet to master. Islamically, I am very young, having reverted in 2003. And while I have much to learn I can identify with the frustrations shared by young Muslims today. I know 9/11 had a huge impact on the world, but it wasn’t really the start of something. It was the continuation of a legacy of US imperialism and its fear of Islam.
Just over ten years ago, fit, young Muslims across the globe flooded into Bosnia to help their brothers and sisters fight for their survival against the Serbs who were carrying out a genocide sanctioned by the silence of a watching world. The jihad brought together Muslims from all nationalities, status and culture. All were united; even those who could not travel to fight helped in other ways such as fund-raising, public awareness events and demonstrations..

The impact was to stop the genocide. Western intervention, when it happened, came only after it was apparent that that the Bosnian Muslims were heading for victory. The establishment of an Islamic state deep in the heart of Europe was simply too much to bear and so the West intervened. This is not my conclusion, but US President Bill Clinton admitted it in his autobiography.

This fear of Islam has now evolved in the last 10 years to such an extent that the blood of our brothers and sisters is now flowing like rivers across Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we saw recently what happened to Lebanon. I have walked through many of those killing fields and let me tell you the twisted, blown up limbs of our Muslim brothers and sisters look exactly like those pulled from the rubble of the Twin Towers.

Yet the message of today is quite clear. Muslim blood is a cheap commodity. Meanwhile tens of thousands of innocent Muslims continue to be tortured in far away dungeons and cages in Guantanamo Bay, Bagram airbase in Afghanistan, Abu Ghraib, Diego Garcia and ghost prisons throughout the world.

Others are tortured in Syria, Jordan, Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria and even here in Egypt. Brothers are being tortured at the behest and request of the United States.

So what sort of message does that send out to our young people?

They read about the heroic exploits of Salahudddin Ayyoubi, Khalid bin Walid, Tariq bin Ziad and listen intently to stories of courage and bravery about our beloved Prophet Mohammed.

Do you know, five years ago I had never even heard of The Prophet, but now I would give my last drop of blood to protect his name, his honor and his memory. Even in death he continued to show how strong he was by uniting the Ummah in protest at those vile cartoons from Denmark. Our modern day heroes include those two sixties martyrs Malcolm X and Sayyid Qutb, both whose writings have helped define me as a Muslim. These are the sort of role models and influences our youth need to follow, but instead they receive confused and mixed messages.

One minute they are told the fear no one but Allah while the next minute they are told to dilute their Islam and keep their heads down. Since the events of 9-11, there has been an unrelenting campaign launched to change Islam into something more palatable to Western society. The vision is a secular and cultural Islam at peace with the world through her submission to her oppressors rather than to Allah ; an Islam devoid of jihad, Shariah and khilafah? The very things we are commanded by Allah to implement in order to establish Allah ’s deen on this earth. And it is in evidence everywhere I look. Hijab are being ripped off the heads of my sisters in Tunisia, France and Turkey. Sisters in Holland and Germany are also in the firing line.

Amd in Britain, we have Jack Straw, the former British Foreign Secretary who questioned the veil? I am not having a white, middle-aged man telling me how to dress. Keep out of my wardrobe and that of every sister on this planet. I pick up the newspapers in Cairo today to discover the Minister of Culture has called the wearing of the veil a regression. How dare he say that? Why are the men in Egypt standing by and doing nothing to silence him? He is insulting the honor and dignity of every Muslim woman who chooses to cover.

Farooq Hosni is a disgrace to Islam! What sort of message does he send out to our young people with his weasel words? The nikab, like the veil, like the hijab has become a symbol of a rejection of those negative Western lifestyles like drug-taking, binge-drinking and promiscuity. It is a statement telling the West we don’t want to be like you.

These Arabs who choose to be more western than Westerners make me laugh! Do they realize how pathetic they look in the eyes of the rest of the world? This Minister should be sacked from his post for dishonoring every sister who chooses to cover. I suppose he hides behind such descriptions as moderate? Again what sort of message does that send to our young people? If we ask them to be moderate does that not suggest that there is something wrong with Islam that it needs to be toned down, diluted? The last time I came to Cairo I was called an extremist by none other than the Sheikh of Al Azhar? Sheikh Tantawi. The reason for this? Because, I would not shake his hand. What is a moderate and what is an extremist? I really don’t know. I am a simple Muslim. I follow no scholars or sects? I merely follow The Prophet and the Sunnah. Does that make me an extremist?

I once said being a Muslim is a bit like being pregnant. You are or you are not. Whoever heard of anyone being moderately or extremely pregnant? Islam has been under attack for 1400 years and we should have learned by now to put our trust in no one but Allah . Yet there are those who continue to kiss the hand which slaps them. I am afraid that we can no longer put our trust in to someone just because they might wear Islamic dress or have a long beard? I notice quite a few long beards in here today, but I am not referring to you, brothers. There are those Muslim leaders who claim to guide and protect us but not all of them have our interests at heart. Our young people are going to have to be very discerning since the events of 9/11, Bali, Madrid and the London Bombings, to name a few.

There are individuals who for years rallied the masses to stand up for justice and support mujahideen groups around the world and now some have become embarrassingly silent while others condemn armed jihad, portraying mujahideen as terrorists and extremists who follow a distorted version of Islam. In some ways we are all to blame. Our greatest shame has been our silence while martyrdom operations in Palestine and other occupied lands have been condemned as acts of terror as witnessed in 9/11 and the July 7 bombings. Our young people have to be taught that what is happening in Palestine, Kashmir, Chechnya, Iraq and Afghanistan is legitimate resistance against a brutal military occupation, while crimes like 9/11 and the London bombings are blatant terrorism.
Equating the two only betrays our brothers and sisters who have no other option but to fight or face being wiped off the face of this planet.
The new slaves of the West criticize Islamist parties and governance by Shariah. Even student and youth movements which consistently campaigned for Palestine and Iraq have suddenly lost their tongues in a bid to be seen as… Moderate?

In Britain we have an invasion of what I call the Happy Clappies. They are being flown in by the Government from the US, Canada, Yemen and Mauritania to preach a diluted form of Islam. They are poisoning the minds of our youth and we should be very wary before the Happy Clappies spread across the world. They attack ******* groups in the most cynical manner? Some even misuse nasheeds, and I am deeply afraid that the Happy Clappies are infecting our nasheeds with the excesses of western pop culture.

The end result of all this has been a dilution of the deen of Allah , a weak and pacified Islam willing to accept the status quo in which Muslims are oppressed and subjugated; an Islam in which Muslims are content to sing and dance the night away to nasheeds, to concentrate on bettering their life in the West and to condemn the actions of their brothers and sisters who courageously resist occupation and oppression with whatever they have.

Even making dua for them now has become a crime! How long before we are told not to even pray for the mujahideen?

One of the greatest military general the world has known, Salahuddin Ayyubi, the liberator of al-Quds, was once asked why he didn’t smile. He answered back that how could he smile while he knowing that Masjid al-Aqsa, remained under Crusader occupation.

I wonder what he would make of the state of the world today. I wonder what advice he would give our youth? This is a world where Arab leaders belly-danced shamelessly in front of America while handing Iraq over on a plate. The same Arab leaders look the other way as our beautiful Palestine is continually raped and sodomized, and that other great daughter of the Arab world, Lebanon? Where was the Arab world when she was so brutally assaulted? And the war drums are beating again. Not only is the whole world watching, but so are our children, our youth, and our future. We must nature them, and inspire them with tales of the Prophet and the Sahaba.

As long as the Ummah continues to throw up figures like Khalid bin Walid, Salahuddin Ayyoubi, Sayyid Qutb and Malcolm X all is not lost. The more we are oppressed by the tyrants the more we will fight back. That is the nature of Islam. And this is the Islam our youth need to follow, be guided by and inspired. Farooq Hosni and his ilk are pale imitations of real men? They have castrated themselves in a pathetic attempt to become more Western than the Westerners. He will be consigned to the history books with barely a sentence while the courage and heroic resistance of our brothers and sisters will go down in chapters.

A rapidly increasing number of Muslim youth are now realizing that no matter how hard they compromise their deen to blend in with the wider society, when things go sour, they will be treated with suspicion. The more we are told to forget Shariah, khilafah and jihad, the more Muslims will pay the blood price to uphold these values. The jihad we are witnessing in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kashmir and Chechnya is something noble, a just war against injustice and tyranny. The actions of the jihadists pose absolutely no threat to the West or Western lifestyles and their resistance is not only justified but embraced and encouraged by international law.

The real religious extremists who pose the greatest threat to radicalizing our youth are the Christian Fundamentalists in the White House and Downing Street. Bush and Blair have become al-Qaeda’s finest recruiting officers. More and younger Muslims are waking up with the realization that it is not terrorism or extremism that is being targeted but Islam itself. It is up to the Ummah to lead and inspire our youth, just as The Prophet led and inspired millions and continues to do so.

And the first lesson we must teach our youth is to fear none but Allah .

[Daffodil]

big up to the sis, where are the strong sisters like herself got to these days like diamonds in the dirt that aint bin found.

[Hijrah]

that was just wonderful...I totally agree with what was said...

jazakullah kharian

[Umar001]

I dont get it, people always say theres no such thing as being a moderate.

WHAT??

See I have so many problems with these type of talks.

:(

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[Daffodil]

what exactly is ur problem bro?

[Pk_#2]

I dont get it, people always say theres no such thing as being a moderate.

WHAT??

See I have so many problems with these type of talks.

:(

AsalamuAlaykum,

jazakhala...long.....read :rollseyes

Wasup bro? smile? :)

[TheRightPathI]

*removed*

Salam. That was a beautiful speech. So true. Wasalam.

[SirZubair]

Asalam alaikum,

...And people say i am a whinger.

Wa'salaam

[BlissfullyJaded]

:sl:

*Threads Merged*

[Dawud_uk]

Asalam alaikum,

...And people say i am a whinger.

Wa'salaam

wa alaykumus salaam Sir Zubair,

i dont think personal insults are called for so please kindly make constructive comment or criticism based on varifiable fact or shut up because this is an islamic board so insults without anything to back it up really isnt called for.

wa alaykumus salaam,
Abu Abdullah

[SirZubair]

wa alaykumus salaam Sir Zubair,

i dont think personal insults are called for so please kindly make constructive comment or criticism based on varifiable fact or shut up because this is an islamic board so insults without anything to back it up really isnt called for.

wa alaykumus salaam,
Abu Abdullah

Asalam alaikum AKhi,

I hope all is well with you and your family, insha'allah.

Akhi, speaking of 'personal attacks', incase you haven't noticed,... i've read 3 of her articles ( or maybe 2... i am pretty sure there are 3 on here somewhere.. ) which are full of Personal Attacks. My 'attack' on her is like a black ant on a black stone on a dark night. My 'attack' on her is like a sweet love letter compared to half the crap she has been writing since her conversion.

One thing i won't deny is that she does make valid point(s) time to time, but the way she goes about presenting her complaints is just ridiculous. When i think of the Majority of sisters i know, or have seen, or heard of, i see Beautiful ( spiritualy ;) ) sisters who love their deen. When i think of Yvone, i see a sign that says " PMS'ING 24/7"

Examples? Look for the articles in which she has attacked Tariq Ramadan, look for the article where she attacked Sami Yusuf.

This reminds me of a Lawyer called Irfan Yusuf, this bloke in Sydney. In so many of his articles, he has 'dissed' dozens of Muslims. But when someone says a word against him, he ( and his wife ) started threatening my friends, that he'll sue them.

.. No, she hasn't threatened to sue me, but i find it to be very halarious how her fans have jumped down my throat in the past for 'dissing her' yet they look right past all the fitnah she spreads, all the people she 'disses'. What hypocrisy. What a joke.

Critics need to grow a back bone. If they are able to criticise, they should be able to handle the jandle when it is thrown back at them.

"this is an islamic board so insults without anything to back it up really isnt called for." Look around you akhi, i don't think there is need for me to point out the hundreds of posts that are available on the forum for the world to see, which are full of attacks on muslims/non muslims which are unjustified.

Heck,.. come to think of it,... as much as i hate digging into the past, you should review alot of your posts from not-such-a-long-time-ago in which you were indulging in spreading lies/slandering a scholar who has done more for this Ummah then sister Yvone's ' who should i complain about now' 'constructive criticisms' articles ever will.

Kheir, there you have it. Like i originally said... "..And people say i am a whinger."

Wa'salaam

-Zubair

[Skillganon]

Ok, forget constructive comment but think when posting.

[SirZubair]

Ok, forget constructive comment but think when posting.

Unfortunetly, after reading that article, my brain stopped functioning as it normally does. But allhumdulilah, after a good nights sleep, all is well..

As for "Think when posting", maybe the Mods should review all her articles before allowing the Public to read it? Because most of the articles i've read are absolute rubbish.

.. Laced with good intentions, no doubt. But at the end of the day, intentions are not everything. You cannot disguise rubbish as anything else, no matter how good her intentions are.

[FBI]

Unfortunetly, after reading that article, my brain stopped functioning as it normally does. But allhumdulilah, after a good nights sleep, all is well..

As for "Think when posting", maybe the Mods should review all her articles before allowing the Public to read it? Because most of the articles i've read are absolute rubbish.

.. Laced with good intentions, no doubt. But at the end of the day, intentions are not everything. You cannot disguise rubbish as anything else, no matter how good her intentions are.

:sl:

And which articles are they?

[Skillganon]

Unfortunetly, after reading that article, my brain stopped functioning as it normally does. But allhumdulilah, after a good nights sleep, all is well..

As for "Think when posting", maybe the Mods should review all her articles before allowing the Public to read it? Because most of the articles i've read are absolute rubbish.

.. Laced with good intentions, no doubt. But at the end of the day, intentions are not everything. You cannot disguise rubbish as anything else, no matter how good her intentions are.

I think one might have more problem with her choice of words than some of her observation. Although I am not fond of some of her criticism towards one or two person it would of been best ovoided, I don't think this article should give any hiccups.

[Muezzin]

If anyone has a problem with personal insults, report the post and a mod will be on it. Do not join in by hurling personal insults of your own. This is not directed at any one member in particular, rather it is a general notice.

Play nice, mmkay?

[SirZubair]

:sl:

And which articles are they?

Do a search on the forum "Yvonne ridley", you can't miss it.

I think one might have more problem with her choice of words than some of her observation. Although I am not fond of some of her criticism towards one or two scholars, I don't think this article should give any hiccups.

Like i said, she makes some valid points once a blue moon, and it is her choice of words that i am 'attacking'.

As for this artcile, you don't have to look deep into it to see traces of self-righteousness spilt all over it.

Play nice, mmkay?

Yes sir Mr.Garrison

[Daffodil]

big up to the sister for speaking the HAQ, not many sisters or even brothers for that matter have the courage to stand up and praise our bros n sisters who are fighting our battles.

[Dawud_uk]

Asalam alaikum AKhi,

I hope all is well with you and your family, insha'allah.

Akhi, speaking of 'personal attacks', incase you haven't noticed,... i've read 3 of her articles ( or maybe 2... i am pretty sure there are 3 on here somewhere.. ) which are full of Personal Attacks. My 'attack' on her is like a black ant on a black stone on a dark night. My 'attack' on her is like a sweet love letter compared to half the crap she has been writing since her conversion.

One thing i won't deny is that she does make valid point(s) time to time, but the way she goes about presenting her complaints is just ridiculous. When i think of the Majority of sisters i know, or have seen, or heard of, i see Beautiful ( spiritualy ;) ) sisters who love their deen. When i think of Yvone, i see a sign that says " PMS'ING 24/7"

Examples? Look for the articles in which she has attacked Tariq Ramadan, look for the article where she attacked Sami Yusuf.

This reminds me of a Lawyer called Irfan Yusuf, this bloke in Sydney. In so many of his articles, he has 'dissed' dozens of Muslims. But when someone says a word against him, he ( and his wife ) started threatening my friends, that he'll sue them.

.. No, she hasn't threatened to sue me, but i find it to be very halarious how her fans have jumped down my throat in the past for 'dissing her' yet they look right past all the fitnah she spreads, all the people she 'disses'. What hypocrisy. What a joke.

Critics need to grow a back bone. If they are able to criticise, they should be able to handle the jandle when it is thrown back at them.

"this is an islamic board so insults without anything to back it up really isnt called for." Look around you akhi, i don't think there is need for me to point out the hundreds of posts that are available on the forum for the world to see, which are full of attacks on muslims/non muslims which are unjustified.

Heck,.. come to think of it,... as much as i hate digging into the past, you should review alot of your posts from not-such-a-long-time-ago in which you were indulging in spreading lies/slandering a scholar who has done more for this Ummah then sister Yvone's ' who should i complain about now' 'constructive criticisms' articles ever will.

Kheir, there you have it. Like i originally said... "..And people say i am a whinger."

Wa'salaam

-Zubair

assalaamu alaykum,

i think you need to go back and read again what i wrote only a few posts before, i.e if you have some valid criticisms backed up by evidence then please supply them, if you dont then really dont say it.

as for what you are referring to about myself, i backed up everything i said, every criticism on the person we both know you are referring to with evidence (and yes i am still waiting for a response to my very polite email to his institute several months later).

she is right in everything she has said here, and what is more although good adhab is the general rule there are instances where it is not quite right and sterner stuff is needed.

personally i think she is too kind with those who are trying to subvert islam from within.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[SirZubair]

personally i think she is too kind with those who are trying to subvert islam from within.

Personally, i see people such as her as the people who will be the cause of the downfall of this Ummah. I pray that i am wrong.

as for what you are referring to about myself, i backed up everything i said, every criticism on the person we both know you are referring to with evidence

Asalam alaikum,

And every 'evidence' you provided was refuted and you were proven wrong over and over, yet you carried on arguing about it. Ring a bell? :)

Anyway, yeah, i've gone off topic.

I will take your first advise and will shut up, for now.

Wa'salaam

-Zubair

[Dawud_uk]

Personally, i see people such as her as the people who will be the cause of the downfall of this Ummah. I pray that i am wrong.



Asalam alaikum,

And every 'evidence' you provided was refuted and you were proven wrong over and over, yet you carried on arguing about it. Ring a bell? :)

Anyway, yeah, i've gone off topic.

I will take your first advise and will shut up, for now.

Wa'salaam

-Zubair

akhi, you are suffering from some bad memory problems there so i would suggest you go and look again who was refuted and who not.

anytime you want to want the mods to reopen that thread be my guest, but i was being polite myself and giving the institute and sheikh a little longer before i reopened that topic again myself.

back to this topic... what exactly is it you disagree with here?

that the ummah has forgotten jihad is part of our deen? that certain so-called scholars and intellectuals are trying to water down islam and turn it into something else?

wa alaykumus salaam,
Abu Abdullah

[Skillganon]

Assalamu alaikum brother's, I don't know what you Guys disagreeing over but everyone has a slight dfference in Opinion. Just try to keep it civil.

[FBI]

:sl:

i see people such as her as the people who will be the cause of the downfall of this Ummah.

I couldn't disagree with you more there bro, we need more sisters like her, if she was a few years younger I'd ask for hand in marriage :D

[Umar001]

what exactly is ur problem bro?

Assalamu Aleykum, first of all.

One of the problems is that, as I said, I don't get why people say there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim nor extremist Muslim.

Second, I see these talks tend to try to provoke change, which of course can be good, but I hardly hardly see clear cut steps for those changes, if people are told to change, but they dont know how to do it Islamicly, then they will do it on what they 'understand' which could lead to more 'extremisism' for lack of better words.

Following no scholars, whilst I do agree that noone should be blind followed, at the same time I think that people should have scholars they can trust and refer back to at these times when there are alot of, what some call 'scholars for dollars' some people I know, dont follow scholars at all, so when a scholar says something, the person says 'Ah, i read a hadeeth in Bukhari that said this, let me just do it that way' a big problem with hadeeth rejectors.


Martyrdom operations, what are those? Is that suicide bombing, maybe I have misunderstood, explain to me, are we supposed to glorify or look upto people killing themselves?

Iraq and legitimate resistance, so wait, I hear about suicide bombings and shi'a killing is that what is being spoke of?


Also, it seems like a very powerful talk with lots of strong comments, I was wondering if sister Yvonne has an Islamic education?

I love the sister for the sake of Allah and I have nothing against her, I didnt understand the above and I will give the benefit of doubt that maybe I dont understand it, maybe someoen can clear it up for me?

Eesa

[Musaafirah]

:sl:
I personally thought her speech was an eye opener..
Bro SirZubair..What do you mean by her being the downfall of Islam? Could you explain to me please? :)
Jazakallahukhair..And bro Al-Habeshi, what is it that you don't get?
:w:

[Umar001]

:sl:
I personally thought her speech was an eye opener..
Bro SirZubair..What do you mean by her being the downfall of Islam? Could you explain to me please? :)
Jazakallahukhair..And bro Al-Habeshi, what is it that you don't get?
:w:

Bro, have you just completly not seen the above? lol wait, Musaafir you a sis? Hmm, well anyhow, bro or sis, read the above.

[Musaafirah]

Bro, have you just completly not seen the above? lol wait, Musaafir you a sis? Hmm, well anyhow, bro or sis, read the above.

:sl:
LOL! you said you don't understand her speech..hence the reason for me asking the above.. i meant to say, what exactly is it about the speech that you don't understand? It seemed quite clear to me!
O r did you feel any contradiction?
(And why did ye think I was a bro?!)
Sowwie..another point I need to add... I totally disagree with the "Scholars for Dollars" ..they're just a shame to Islam and the muslims, it's unfortunate however, that they are prevalent everywhere, and unfortunately, i know of many Bangladeshi and Pakistani Imams, that'll say whatever, just to make the people who attend the masjids happy! As well as to remain in this country! AARRGGH!
But I don't get what this has to do with Yvonne's speech? :confused:
:w:

[Umar001]

I dont know if this is a day I should be happy about, me quoting myself or a day i should be sad about.

Lol,

LOL! you said you don't understand her speech..hence the reason for me asking the above.. i meant to say, what exactly is it about the speech that you don't understand? It seemed quite clear to me!
O r did you feel any contradiction?
(And why did ye think I was a bro?!)

Read:

Assalamu Aleykum, first of all.

One of the problems is that, as I said, I don't get why people say there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim nor extremist Muslim.

Second, I see these talks tend to try to provoke change, which of course can be good, but I hardly hardly see clear cut steps for those changes, if people are told to change, but they dont know how to do it Islamicly, then they will do it on what they 'understand' which could lead to more 'extremisism' for lack of better words.

Following no scholars, whilst I do agree that noone should be blind followed, at the same time I think that people should have scholars they can trust and refer back to at these times when there are alot of, what some call 'scholars for dollars' some people I know, dont follow scholars at all, so when a scholar says something, the person says 'Ah, i read a hadeeth in Bukhari that said this, let me just do it that way' a big problem with hadeeth rejectors.


Martyrdom operations, what are those? Is that suicide bombing, maybe I have misunderstood, explain to me, are we supposed to glorify or look upto people killing themselves?

Iraq and legitimate resistance, so wait, I hear about suicide bombings and shi'a killing is that what is being spoke of?


Also, it seems like a very powerful talk with lots of strong comments, I was wondering if sister Yvonne has an Islamic education?

I love the sister for the sake of Allah and I have nothing against her, I didnt understand the above and I will give the benefit of doubt that maybe I dont understand it, maybe someoen can clear it up for me?

Eesa

So SISTER lol, do you agree with all those bits? Not following a Scholar(s), are we meanto see martyrdom operation as a good thing, what legitimate resistance is in Iraq, does it include suicide bombing? Is there no such thing as extremism? What Islamic teaching has our sister done.

Those are few of the points I was confused and seeking clarification on.

[Hijrah]

....

One thing i won't deny is that she does make valid point(s) time to time, but the way she goes about presenting her complaints is just ridiculous. When i think of the Majority of sisters i know, or have seen, or heard of, i see Beautiful ( spiritualy ;) ) sisters who love their deen. When i think of Yvone, i see a sign that says " PMS'ING 24/7"

....

I've read what she has to say about sami yusuf, I know the truth hurts but she was right, end of story, I can't believe you would say pms'ing 24/7

[Hijrah]

...
Martyrdom operations, what are those? Is that suicide bombing, maybe I have misunderstood, explain to me, are we supposed to glorify or look upto people killing themselves?
...

Allah knows best but some say the suicide bombings are legit, such as sheikh yusuf al-qaradawi, as for Iraaq, Allaah knows best but not all the resistance can be involved in sectarian violence, did you know there are both sunni and shi'aa anti-american forces?

[Umar001]

Allah knows best but some say the suicide bombings are legit, such as sheikh yusuf al-qaradawi, as for Iraaq, Allaah knows best but not all the resistance can be involved in sectarian violence, did you know there are both sunni and shi'aa anti-american forces?

Some say suicide is legit? Wow, well hmm. :heated:

As for Iraq, whilst I do agree with you, I think that the talk then should have been more explicit on that, because this is part of what I was talking about people using their own 'understanding' to make changes, people like to scream and shout 'The Muslims are being killed, our brothers and sisters are dying we need to change o Muslims' but they dont say how, and what Islam says about change and how it is to be done, so then some people, especially young, get the wrong end of the stick and go and join extrimest. Oh then again I guess some people dont believe in thre being an extreme in Islam, your either Muslim or not? lol. This is what I find detestable, and disgusting in my eyes, sorry to use those words, but akhi, wallahi, I was nearly misguided with these things when I just became a revert.

[Hijrah]

Some say suicide is legit? Wow, well hmm. :heated:

As for Iraq, whilst I do agree with you, I think that the talk then should have been more explicit on that, because this is part of what I was talking about people using their own 'understanding' to make changes, people like to scream and shout 'The Muslims are being killed, our brothers and sisters are dying we need to change o Muslims' but they dont say how, and what Islam says about change and how it is to be done, so then some people, especially young, get the wrong end of the stick and go and join extrimest. Oh then again I guess some people dont believe in thre being an extreme in Islam, your either Muslim or not? lol. This is what I find detestable, and disgusting in my eyes, sorry to use those words, but akhi, wallahi, I was nearly misguided with these things when I just became a revert.

:sl:
the sister made it very clear that there is a difference between irhaab and resistance, btw her essay concerning sami yusuf and these other musicians was nothing but truth i can't believe people would object to that.

[Musaafirah]

Lol, I greatly apologise for the inconvenience i have caused thee..shall I answer my views to each of the points you've raised? Okies..here ya go

Assalamu Aleykum, first of all.

One of the problems is that, as I said, I don't get why people say there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim nor extremist Muslim.

How can there be such a thing though? Shouldn't it progress from knowing little about Islam, to increasing your knowledge of Islam? My views of moderate Muslims, are those who distort Hadiths and Qur'anic verses in order to make their lifestyles match their Western Counterparts. Reason = The love of the Duniya by any chance?:rollseyes. and what's with all the extremism? Why not jus call em a bunch of looneys with loud voices? :?

Second, I see these talks tend to try to provoke change, which of course can be good, but I hardly hardly see clear cut steps for those changes, if people are told to change, but they dont know how to do it Islamicly, then they will do it on what they 'understand' which could lead to more 'extremisism' for lack of better word.

I thought that if people are 'told' to change they go out of their way to not change? Or maybe that's just me..:uuh: But seriously, changing according to one's own interpretation can't always lead to extremism..surely?!..Though I must say it's not always wise, because what an individual interprets may vary greatly to a Scholars interpretation, because of emotions felt at the time etc, though having said this, we all are humans at the end of the day, so mustn't always jump on what scholars have said..

Following no scholars, whilst I do agree that noone should be blind followed, at the same time I think that people should have scholars they can trust and refer back to at these times when there are alot of, what some call 'scholars for dollars' some people I know, dont follow scholars at all, so when a scholar says something, the person says 'Ah, i read a hadeeth in Bukhari that said this, let me just do it that way' a big problem with hadeeth rejectors.

Please read my above 'edited' post! :)

Martyrdom operations, what are those? Is that suicide bombing, maybe I have misunderstood, explain to me, are we supposed to glorify or look upto people killing themselves?

Iraq and legitimate resistance, so wait, I hear about suicide bombings and shi'a killing is that what is being spoke of?

Hmm..I can't reall say much there, coz I personally don't know what is meant by 'Martyrdom Operations'

Also, it seems like a very powerful talk with lots of strong comments, I was wondering if sister Yvonne has an Islamic education?

I love the sister for the sake of Allah and I have nothing against her, I didnt understand the above and I will give the benefit of doubt that maybe I dont understand it, maybe someoen can clear it up for me?

Eesa

I'm not sure about her education, in fact i don't know much about the sister, apart from the fact that she's a journalist..So I shan't say anything further..
I apologise for making you quote yourself!

:w:

[Skillganon]

Assalamu Aleykum, first of all.

Walikum assalam. I do not know why I am involving myself in such discussion it is best ovoided.

One of the problems is that, as I said, I don't get why people say there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim nor extremist Muslim.

The problem with this is the perception of Extremism and Moderate. Their is a considerable effort to conflate & distort the meaning of the two. Moderate is to be conflated to being compliant, submissive and pacifist, who are culture muslims, hardly adhere's to Islam.
Extremism is if one oppose them even in a civil manner and adhere to Islam.

Second, I see these talks tend to try to provoke change, which of course can be good, but I hardly hardly see clear cut steps for those changes, if people are told to change, but they dont know how to do it Islamicly, then they will do it on what they 'understand' which could lead to more 'extremisism' for lack of better words.

I agree, their is a need for Muslim to educate themselve and UNDERSTAND the Quran. It will ovoid making fewer disagreement, and less chance of ending up fighting each other, like the time of Jahilyah.

Following no scholars, whilst I do agree that noone should be blind followed, at the same time I think that people should have scholars they can trust and refer back to at these times when there are alot of, what some call 'scholars for dollars' some people I know, dont follow scholars at all, so when a scholar says something, the person says 'Ah, i read a hadeeth in Bukhari that said this, let me just do it that way' a big problem with hadeeth rejectors.

I agree.

Martyrdom operations, what are those? Is that suicide bombing, maybe I have misunderstood, explain to me, are we supposed to glorify or look upto people killing themselves?

I agree not to glorify them, but to support the brother's and sister's that are facing tomult and oppression and their right & litigimacy of resistance.

Iraq and legitimate resistance, so wait, I hear about suicide bombings and shi'a killing is that what is being spoke of?

The iraq situation is a mess, we all agree, Shia killing and suicide bombing although we do not agree with we do agree with the people resistance against the invaders and the one who take them protectors and guardians.

Other thing is their may be resistance group that are acting in elss accordance with the Quran and Sunnah and their are other's who are acting in more accordance. Bear in mind mistake and e.t.c.

Also, it seems like a very powerful talk with lots of strong comments, I was wondering if sister Yvonne has an Islamic education?

I think she made it clear in the beginning about her education and I do agree we all need one.
The Gist of what she said is not bad, but as I said it's her choice of word's and some pointing towards some scholar's that I do find that she could of done without.

I love the sister for the sake of Allah and I have nothing against her, I didnt understand the above and I will give the benefit of doubt that maybe I dont understand it, maybe someoen can clear it up for me?
Eesa

I did not understand the above too. LOL. That's why I said the two brother's to be civil and that everyone has a slight different opinion.
We should realise not everyone has the same opinion/Idea.

[BlissfullyJaded]

:sl:

There is such a thing as a moderate in Islam, and that is one who practises the Quran and Sunnah as it should be, and doesn't go to either extreme of making up bid'ah, or completely leaving everything out. However, today the meanings of the words moderate and extremist are distorted.

I also understand where brother Sir Zubair is coming from. She really needs to rephrase what she says to be less harsh, while making sure her message hits home. I don't really see the way she is doing it as effective in attracting people to her side, if thats what she is aiming to do.

[Hijrah]

there is such thing of being moderate and being extreme in Islaam and this is very clear when reading the Qur'aan and Sunnah

[Umar001]

:sl:

There is such a thing as a moderate in Islam, and that is one who practises the Quran and Sunnah as it should be, and doesn't go to either extreme of making up bid'ah, or completely leaving everything out. However, today the meanings of the words moderate and extremist are distorted.

Wa aleykum Salam Wa Rhametulah,

Wallahi this is what i was waiting for!!

All this 'no extremist Muslim' talk is doing my darn head in!!

I'll reply to those who replied to me inshaAllah please be patient with me.

Eesa

[Musaafirah]

:sl:

There is such a thing as a moderate in Islam, and that is one who practises the Quran and Sunnah as it should be, and doesn't go to either extreme of making up bid'ah, or completely leaving everything out. However, today the meanings of the words moderate and extremist are distorted.

I also understand where brother Sir Zubair is coming from. She really needs to rephrase what she says to be less harsh, while making sure her message hits home. I don't really see the way she is doing it as effective in attracting people to her side, if thats what she is aiming to do.

:sl:
Ooh..Jazakallah sis for reminding me of the real definition of moderation, it's just that in the place I live, it's been getting so annoying with a new Islamic School in my area, where they don't care about the fact that there are 4 madhabs, the fact that in the Hanafi Madhab the method of prayer for women is different in the sense that her Salaat should be more concealing. The fact that pictures should not be put up outside or around the place of prayer, hence causing the angels not to enter the room when praying. The free mixing of males and females?! Then they go on about them being 'moderate muslims..Like what?!! imsad
Alas..I hope that Allah guides us all to follow the Ahlus sunnah Wal Jama'ah!
Insha'allah
:w:

[Umar001]

Lol, I greatly apologise for the inconvenience i have caused thee..shall I answer my views to each of the points you've raised? Okies..here ya go

No worries.

How can there be such a thing though? Shouldn't it progress from knowing little about Islam, to increasing your knowledge of Islam? My views of moderate Muslims, are those who distort Hadiths and Qur'anic verses in order to make their lifestyles match their Western Counterparts. Reason = The love of the Duniya by any chance?:rollseyes. and what's with all the extremism? Why not jus call em a bunch of looneys with loud voices? :?

So you do agree that there is such a thing as being a Moderate Muslim? I.e. Not extreme, and that it's not just muslim and not muslim, like pregnent and not pregnent.

I thought that if people are 'told' to change they go out of their way to not change? Or maybe that's just me..:uuh: But seriously, changing according to one's own interpretation can't always lead to extremism..surely?!..Though I must say it's not always wise, because what an individual interprets may vary greatly to a Scholars interpretation, because of emotions felt at the time etc, though having said this, we all are humans at the end of the day, so mustn't always jump on what scholars have said..

So you do agree that we should follow scholars, follow mean that we trust them because of established trustworthyness, and even then not always blind followed but a couple of scholar's view should be taken so to assure that mistakes are not maken.


Seem like you agree with me on quite abit then, and no need to apologise, I should have made myself clear insha'Allah, thank you for your patience.

The problem with this is the perception of Extremism and Moderate. Their is a considerable effort to conflate & distort the meaning of the two. Moderate is to be conflated to being compliant, submissive and pacifist, who are culture muslims, hardly adhere's to Islam.
Extremism is if one oppose them even in a civil manner and adhere to Islam

So it seems you agree that there are extreme and moderate Muslims, and that it is not like someone who is pregnent, who is neither extreme pregnent and moderate pregnent?

Maybe I have not understood the sisters speech, but it seems yall are agreeing that there is a thing as extreme and moderate.

I agree, their is a need for Muslim to educate themselve and UNDERSTAND the Quran. It will ovoid making fewer disagreement, and less chance of ending up fighting each other, like the time of Jahilyah.

Well I dont know what the other speakers there said, but don't you think that alongside or even instead of the mesage to change, more time should be spent on education and speaking on how to change, and instead of people saying 'no such thing as moderate and extreme' people should actually be honest and say we sould make change but not in an extremist way?

I agree not to glorify them, but to support the brother's and sister's that are facing tomult and oppression and their right & litigimacy of resistance.

You see, the way I read it and understood it, maybe I was mistaken but it seemed as if we should glorify it, as if, from what I understand martyrdom operations to mean, we should not think of suicide as being wrong.

The iraq situation is a mess, we all agree, Shia killing and suicide bombing although we do not agree with we do agree with the people resistance against the invaders and the one who take them protectors and guardians.

Other thing is their may be resistance group that are acting in elss accordance with the Quran and Sunnah and their are other's who are acting in more accordance. Bear in mind mistake and e.t.c.

Well again I think that this is why it needs to be made clear, young people are impressionable, so they should be told properly and not really left to interpretations, because to be honest all we hear on the news is 'suicide bombing' and so that seems to be the main thing there, thus some may easily think that this is what is being thought of when speakin of 'resistance'

I think she made it clear in the beginning about her education and I do agree we all need one.
The Gist of what she said is not bad, but as I said it's her choice of word's and some pointing towards some scholar's that I do find that she could of done without.

Am not so much bothered by her words I think, I mean I think people need to be so precise now days, alot of the stuff that I saw confused me and I think it could so easily do much more damage to those who are not able to access much information!! Specially when the talk is inspiring.

Thank you both for your patience and may Allah reward me and you :)

Abu Ikhlas

[Woodrow]

:sl:

There is such a thing as a moderate in Islam, and that is one who practises the Quran and Sunnah as it should be, and doesn't go to either extreme of making up bid'ah, or completely leaving everything out. However, today the meanings of the words moderate and extremist are distorted.

I also understand where brother Sir Zubair is coming from. She really needs to rephrase what she says to be less harsh, while making sure her message hits home. I don't really see the way she is doing it as effective in attracting people to her side, if thats what she is aiming to do.

Very true. The problem is people fail to understand the difference between moderate and liberal, or tolerance and assimilation.

Islam is a very moderate religion in the true meaning of moderation.

[Skillganon]

So it seems you agree that there are extreme and moderate Muslims, and that it is not like someone who is pregnent, who is neither extreme pregnent and moderate pregnent?

Maybe I have not understood the sisters speech, but it seems yall are agreeing that there is a thing as extreme and moderate.

Their is enough thread's on wha is extreme in Islam in the "sectarian section"
Extreme is the one who is two much on the left and the one who is two much on the right.

However I do think she was alluding to what we are have been saying, as well as sister Labilah.

You see, the way I read it and understood it, maybe I was mistaken but it seemed as if we should glorify it, as if, from what I understand martyrdom operations to mean, we should not think of suicide as being wrong.

Yes, but I don't think she was glorifying Suicide bombing,

but what I said "... to support the brother's and sister's that are facing tomult and oppression and their right & litigimacy of resistance. "

Well again I think that this is why it needs to be made clear, young people are impressionable, so they should be told properly and not really left to interpretations, because to be honest all we hear on the news is 'suicide bombing' and so that seems to be the main thing there, thus some may easily think that this is what is being thought of when speakin of 'resistance'

Well, we all hear of suicide bombing because that is what is being projected.
I agree with you that people might think suidcide bombing as the mean's to resistance.

However I do not think she was trying to glamorize suicide bombing or calling for it.

Am not so much bothered by her words I think, I mean I think people need to be so precise now days, alot of the stuff that I saw confused me and I think it could so easily do much more damage to those who are not able to access much information!! Specially when the talk is inspiring.

Thank you both for your patience and may Allah reward me and you :)

Abu Ikhlas

Agreed let's move on.

Thank you both for your patience and may Allah reward me and you.

Skill

[Daffodil]

there is no such thing as being a moderate muslim, like the sister sed, being muslim is like being pregnant, u cant be a little bit pregnant or moderatly pregnant, ur either a muslim (meaning TOTAL submitter to god) or not a muslim at all. total submission to god doesnt mean only a little bit of submission here and there.

DONT MESS WITH LOGIC DUH

[Keltoi]

there is no such thing as being a moderate muslim, like the sister sed, being muslim is like being pregnant, u cant be a little bit pregnant or moderatly pregnant, ur either a muslim (meaning TOTAL submitter to god) or not a muslim at all. total submission to god doesnt mean only a little bit of submission here and there.

DONT MESS WITH LOGIC DUH

There is however a difference between moderate and extreme actions. I think that is the point.

[Woodrow]

there is no such thing as being a moderate muslim, like the sister sed, being muslim is like being pregnant, u cant be a little bit pregnant or moderatly pregnant, ur either a muslim (meaning TOTAL submitter to god) or not a muslim at all. total submission to god doesnt mean only a little bit of submission here and there.

DONT MESS WITH LOGIC DUH

Just a few of the many examples of moderation in the Qur'an

25:67. Those who, when they spend, are not extravagant and not niggardly, but hold a just (balance) between those (extremes); S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

2:143. Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

16:90. Allah commands justice, the doing of good, and liberality to kith and kin, and He forbids all shameful deeds, and injustice and rebellion: He instructs you, that ye may receive admonition. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

16:128. For Allah is with those who restrain themselves, and those who do good. S P C
Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

[Malaikah]

:sl:

I think sis Daffodil was refering to the type of moderation the non-muslims talk about, not the type outlined by the Quran and sunnah. They are two 100% different things.

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum,
Again,

there is no such thing as being a moderate muslim, like the sister sed, being muslim is like being pregnant, u cant be a little bit pregnant or moderatly pregnant, ur either a muslim (meaning TOTAL submitter to god) or not a muslim at all. total submission to god doesnt mean only a little bit of submission here and there.

DONT MESS WITH LOGIC DUH

Peep this:

4. This verse bears witness to the superiority of those who possess knowledge. Allaah does not make any of His creation bear witness except the upright amongst them.

There is a well-known narration from the Prophet (sallallahu `alaihi wa sallam), who said: "The upright in every generation will carry this knowledge, rejecting the distortions of the extremists, the false claims of the liars, and the (false) interpretations of the ignorant." (hasan)

Source - http://islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=564

1: Volume: 1, Book Number: 2, Hadith Number: 38
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded; and gain strength by worshipping in the mornings, the nights." (See Fath-ul-Bari, Page 102, Vol 1).

Bukhari.

Source - http://www.islaam.net/main/hadithsea...khari&recalc=1

I urge people to check the sources for themselves.

I hope people do not think that theres only one type of Muslim, just like one pregnent lady.

[Woodrow]

:sl:

I think sis Daffodil was refering to the type of moderation the non-muslims talk about, not the type outlined by the Quran and sunnah. They are two 100% different things.

I mentioned that earlier. Too many people mistake moderation with liberal.


Moderation is far and just with no extremes. Liberal is the acceptance of all extremes.

[Umar001]

:sl:

I think sis Daffodil was refering to the type of moderation the non-muslims talk about, not the type outlined by the Quran and sunnah. They are two 100% different things.

Wa Aleykum Salam Wa Rhametulah,

Please explain the difference.

[Keltoi]

:sl:

I think sis Daffodil was refering to the type of moderation the non-muslims talk about, not the type outlined by the Quran and sunnah. They are two 100% different things.

What moderation are non-Muslims talking about as opposed to the moderation mentioned in the Quran? The moderation mentioned by non-Muslims are simple things, like not preaching hate, not praising suicide bombers, etc. It isn't that difficult of a concept. I know that many Muslims seem to think non-Muslims are out to stop them from being Muslims, which isn't the case. One example....an extremist Muslim walks up to a moderate Muslim. The extremist Muslims asks "Hey, wanna go blow up a train full of people for the glory of Allah?" The moderate Muslim responds.."No, the Quran tells me not to kill innocent people." Yes, that is meant to be simplified, but it is an obvious example of a moderate and a extremist.

[Umar001]

What moderation are non-Muslims talking about as opposed to the moderation mentioned in the Quran? The moderation mentioned by non-Muslims are simple things, like not preaching hate, not praising suicide bombers, etc. It isn't that difficult of a concept. I know that many Muslims seem to think non-Muslims are out to stop them from being Muslims, which isn't the case. One example....an extremist Muslim walks up to a moderate Muslim. The extremist Muslims asks "Hey, wanna go blow up a train full of people for the glory of Allah?" The moderate Muslim responds.."No, the Quran tells me not to kill innocent people." Yes, that is meant to be simplified, but it is an obvious example of a moderate and a extremist.

I totally and fully and I dont know no other words that can describe that, but I finish my case, extremism does exist, the analogy given of a pregnant woman for moderate and extremist is wrong, because a person can be moderate and be muslim and a person can be extreme and still be muslim, rather, a person like the pregnent women is either Muslim or not, i.e. they cant have one foot in and one foot out, meaning they believe in one part and not the other, so that is it. But that has nothing to do with extremism and moderation.

[Malaikah]

Keltoi,

No.

The western idea of moderate Muslims is liberal Muslims, as Woodrow said.

When moderation and extremism are mentioned in Islam, this is what they mean:

Moderation in religion means that one does not exaggerate and go beyond the limit set by Allaah, and that one does not neglect it and fall short of the limit set by Allaah.

Moderation in religion means following the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Exaggeration means trying to do more than he did, and negligence means not reaching that level.

For example, a man says, “I want to spend all night in prayer (qiyaam al-layl), and never sleep all my life, because prayer is one of the best acts of worship, so I want to spend the entire night in prayer.” We say, this is going to extremes in the religion of Allaah, and this is not right. Something like this happened at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), when a group of men got together and one of them said, “I will pray at night and never sleep.” Another said, “I will fast and never break my fast.” The third one said, “I will never marry women.” News of that reached the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said, “What is wrong with people who say such and such? I fast and I break my fast. I sleep, and I marry women. Whoever overlooks my Sunnah does not belong to me.” These people had gone to extremes in religion, and so the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) disowned them, because they overlooked his Sunnah which includes fasting and not fasting, praying at night and sleeping, and marrying women.

Read more: http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...txt=moderation

There is a huge difference.

[Malaikah]

I totally and fully and I dont know no other words that can describe that, but I finish my case, extremism does exist, the analogy given of a pregnant woman for moderate and extremist is wrong, because a person can be moderate and be muslim and a person can be extreme and still be muslim, rather, a person like the pregnent women is either Muslim or not, i.e. they cant have one foot in and one foot out, meaning they believe in one part and not the other, so that is it. But that has nothing to do with extremism and moderation.

:sl:

Bro see my post above, is islam moderation mean following the sunnah, extremism is trying to do more than the prophet did.

The way westerners use these terms is very different. Their idea of a moderate is someone who has no problem ignoring bits and peices of the sunnah, and extremists are just anyone they dont like.

It would be nice if they just define their terms (the media and politicians I mean.)

[Umar001]

Keltoi,

No.

The western idea of moderate Muslims is liberal Muslims, as Woodrow said.

When moderation and extremism are mentioned in Islam, this is what they mean:

Moderation in religion means that one does not exaggerate and go beyond the limit set by Allaah, and that one does not neglect it and fall short of the limit set by Allaah.

Moderation in religion means following the example of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Exaggeration means trying to do more than he did, and negligence means not reaching that level.

For example, a man says, “I want to spend all night in prayer (qiyaam al-layl), and never sleep all my life, because prayer is one of the best acts of worship, so I want to spend the entire night in prayer.” We say, this is going to extremes in the religion of Allaah, and this is not right. Something like this happened at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), when a group of men got together and one of them said, “I will pray at night and never sleep.” Another said, “I will fast and never break my fast.” The third one said, “I will never marry women.” News of that reached the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he said, “What is wrong with people who say such and such? I fast and I break my fast. I sleep, and I marry women. Whoever overlooks my Sunnah does not belong to me.” These people had gone to extremes in religion, and so the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) disowned them, because they overlooked his Sunnah which includes fasting and not fasting, praying at night and sleeping, and marrying women.

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...txt=moderation

There is a huge difference.

To say that there is no moderate and no extreme, or to say moderate is to show a 'diluted' version of Islam is a bad statement, you know why? because this is exactly what the people that talk about suicide bombing and terrorist act tell you!! 'Brother, theres no extremist or moderate, we all muslim, or not, dont be foolled..'

It is very unwise to say stuff like that if you ask people to be moderate it is like asking them to dilute islam or something.

This is why I personally prefer a person of knowledge speak, already we have seen the confusion amongst us, where we are at least a little versed in Islam, imagine others, young brothers, who hear things like this then next thing you know they go blow themselves up.

:(

[Umar001]

:sl:

Bro see my post above, is islam moderation mean following the sunnah, extremism is trying to do more than the prophet did.

The way westerners use these terms is very different. Their idea of a moderate is someone who has no problem ignoring bits and peices of the sunnah, and extremists are just anyone they dont like.

It would be nice if they just define their terms (the media and politicians I mean.)

I have never seen that their idea of moderate is that, I have always seen that their idea of moderate is those who do not preach hate and preach terrorism.

Also refer to my post please which talks about why I feel persoanlly it is unwise to speak so losely anyway.

[Malaikah]

:sl:

Eesa, we live in different countries, which might expalin a lot. But I have never felt that the way the media and politicians use the word moderate is the same as the way the prophet pbuh used the word.

You are rght that it is unwise to speak loosely but the confusion comes about form not understanding that the definitions we have of moderation are different.

People think they are talking about the same thing because they are using the same words but they actually arent.

Btw did you even read the thing I posted from islam-qa? :?

[Umar001]

:sl:

Eesa, we live in different countries, which might expalin a lot. But I have never felt that the way the media and politicians use the word moderate is the same as the way the prophet pbuh used the word.

You are rght that it is unwise to speak loosely but the confusion comes about form not understanding that the definitions we have of moderation are different.

People think they are talking about the same thing because they are using the same words but they actually arent.

Btw did you even read the thing I posted from islam-qa? :?

Yes, that hadeeth was the hadeeth I was looking for to show that moderation is good but I didnt want to say it wrongly :p

Anyhow, I understand what you mean, but I think we agree, or at least I think that it is unwise to throw around words, such a done with moderation and extremist and not to follow scholars and so forth. This was/is one of my major dislikes/problems I have with this.

Anyhow, no point debating further over it, may allah forgive me and you and the sister ameen.

[Malaikah]

:sl:

^Ameen! Yep I am sure we are agreed on this alhamdulilah.

[Chechnya]

Jazakallah Khair to the poster of the article.

Sis Yvonne doesnt pull any punches and says it like it is - she certainly upset the sami yusuf fan club last time ;D

I dont think there is a moderate or extremist either. People who may do some wrong actions without repenting are just mis-guided - not moderates or extremists.

Since the west uses the word "extremist" for some of the best Muslims i.e Mujahideen in Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan - we should call ourselves extremists too to show solidarity with our brothers and sisters.

[Keltoi]

Jazakallah Khair to the poster of the article.

Sis Yvonne doesnt pull any punches and says it like it is - she certainly upset the sami yusuf fan club last time ;D

I dont think there is a moderate or extremist either. People who may do some wrong actions without repenting are just mis-guided - not moderates or extremists.

Since the west uses the word "extremist" for some of the best Muslims i.e Mujahideen in Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan - we should call ourselves extremists too to show solidarity with our brothers and sisters.

You mean make no moral judgements and allow others to define Islam for you?

[FBI]

- we should call ourselves extremists too to show solidarity with our brothers and sisters.

I aint no public relations expert but I for sure no that aint a good idea.

[Chechnya]

I aint no public relations expert but I for sure no that aint a good idea.

the idea is to stop the west defining us into different categories - good muslims and not so good muslims. and more importantly it shows support for our mujahideen brothers and sisters.

when aslan maskhadov was dubbed an extremist - it was russias attempt to isolate him but eveyone stuck by him basically saying if he's an extremist then we all are.

You mean make no moral judgements and allow others to define Islam for you?

can you please expand.

i didnt understand your point

[Keltoi]

the idea is to stop the west defining us into different categories - good muslims and not so good muslims. and more importantly it shows support for our mujahideen brothers and sisters.

when aslan maskhadov was dubbed an extremist - it was russias attempt to isolate him but eveyone stuck by him basically saying if he's an extremist then we all are.



can you please expand.

i didnt understand your point

My point is that it sounds as if you would rather make no moral judgements about the actions of fellow Muslims. If they blow up children or commit suicide in bomb attacks that should be defended because they are Muslims. That seems to suggest you make no moral judgements about the actions of those who call themselves Muslims.

[Chechnya]

My point is that it sounds as if you would rather make no moral judgements about the actions of fellow Muslims. If they blow up children or commit suicide in bomb attacks that should be defended because they are Muslims. That seems to suggest you make no moral judgements about the actions of those who call themselves Muslims.

I dont know how you drew those conclusions from my statement :rollseyes

[Keltoi]

I dont know how you drew those conclusions from my statement :rollseyes

You stated that those who commit un-Islamic acts are simply "misguided", and that Muslims should call themselves extremists and support the "mujahadeen" in Chechnya, Iraq, and Afghanistan. That seems to shrug off any un-Islamic acts as "misguided" while still supporting those same un-Islamic acts.

[Umar001]

Since the west uses the word "extremist" for some of the best Muslims i.e Mujahideen in Kashmir, Chechnya, Afghanistan - we should call ourselves extremists too to show solidarity with our brothers and sisters.

So the Prophet peace be upon him warned against extremist, and now we want to call ourself extremist because the west, according to some, has labelled the best men extremist, if anything we should say they are not extremist and neither are we.

I find it abit silly to say 'We are extremist' even if it is to show solidarity, when that is a 'title' the prophet, peace be uponhim, wanred against, even if it was for a diff meaning, as some say, wouldn't it be better if we just cleared the people accused of being extreme from that title?

[Sis786]

Man this forum aint changed, Im going to give a simple answer and say "Great Speech"

[Chechnya]

You stated that those who commit un-Islamic acts are simply "misguided", and that Muslims should call themselves extremists and support the "mujahadeen" in Chechnya, Iraq, and Afghanistan. That seems to shrug off any un-Islamic acts as "misguided" while still supporting those same un-Islamic acts.

How are you in support of something when you call it misguided? :rollseyes

The very word suggests that it is something wrong, bad and so on. So using the word is recognition in itself that a certain action was wrong and unislamic - it certainly isnt "support".

So the Prophet peace be upon him warned against extremist, and now we want to call ourself extremist because the west, according to some, has labelled the best men extremist, if anything we should say they are not extremist and neither are we.

Im not sure you have understood the point. Certainly the prophet (saw) warned us away from extremism.

But the western-led media label of "extremism" is totally different to what the prophet (saw) mentions. In the west sometimes a sister who wears a niqab is an extremist or a brother that has a large beard - or someone who fights for self-determination and freedom.

So in this case rather than let the western leaders, media etc divide us - we should show that we are one and accept a label for ourselves that they have bestowed on those who they aim wrongly to malign.

[Umar001]

Im not sure you have understood the point. Certainly the prophet (saw) warned us away from extremism.

But the western-led media label of "extremism" is totally different to what the prophet (saw) mentions. In the west sometimes a sister who wears a niqab is an extremist or a brother that has a large beard - or someone who fights for self-determination and freedom.

So in this case rather than let the western leaders, media etc divide us - we should show that we are one and accept a label for ourselves that they have bestowed on those who they aim wrongly to malign.

I have understood you but you have misunderstood my answer.

Imagine some of us said we were extremist, ok, we took the label, then 1. Non-Muslims might be reluctant to speak to us. 2. Muslims themselves will hear us say 'im an extremist' and becuase they read the prophet's speech those muslims might keep away from us.

So rather than do a stupid thing and accept a label which will just bring negative points, would it not be better to say 'No we are not extremist, the people are fighting for justice thats not extreme' blah blah blah!!

[Chechnya]

I have understood you but you have misunderstood my answer.

Imagine some of us said we were extremist, ok, we took the label, then 1. Non-Muslims might be reluctant to speak to us. 2. Muslims themselves will hear us say 'im an extremist' and becuase they read the prophet's speech those muslims might keep away from us.

Note that when refering to the non-muslims, i mentioned only their leaders, media etc. - the people are different matter. From my experience most dont fall into the trap of seeing Muslims other than what they are. However if there are some who will shy away from us then so be it - supporting in every way we can our people is more important to us than trying to impress a certain setion of the non-muslim population.

As for Muslims themselves, one expects that we all know that the laughable western interpretration of extremism is NOT what the prophet (saw) was refering too - so i dont see any problems there. Most Muslims are aware that sisters who war niqab, hijab are not extreme, most brothers with beards are not extreme etc.

So rather than do a stupid thing and accept a label which will just bring negative points, would it not be better to say 'No we are not extremist, the people are fighting for justice thats not extreme' blah blah blah!!

Very noble idea but in practice quite useless in my opinion. We have been doing it for a long time while our "extremist" brothers and sisters are being killed - it hasnt changed anything.
Aslan Maskhadov ( i use him as an example because in my opinion he is the best leader the muslim world has had in the last few decades) was eventually killed for being an extremist - all the whining and bleating of Muslims that he actually wasnt an extremist didnt help. Nor does it look like it is going to help in the future.
So rather than trying to impress the non-muslims with THEIR version of moderation we should stick to our brother and sisters inshalah who are being maligned.

[Umar001]

Note that when refering to the non-muslims, i mentioned only their leaders, media etc. - the people are different matter. From my experience most dont fall into the trap of seeing Muslims other than what they are. However if there are some who will shy away from us then so be it - supporting in every way we can our people is more important to us than trying to impress a certain setion of the non-muslim population.

As for Muslims themselves, one expects that we all know that the laughable western interpretration of extremism is NOT what the prophet (saw) was refering too - so i dont see any problems there. Most Muslims are aware that sisters who war niqab, hijab are not extreme, most brothers with beards are not extreme etc.

I feel I should put my position on everything I disagree with in your post but I wont since that in my eyes will only result in waste of time.

You have misunderstood, maybe from your end 'extremist' means just those who wear niqab and beards, but rather your mistaken, if this was the case we would not see anyone with niqabs and beards, do you think the west would let extremist run around? So your view is faulty. I know Muslims who do not see neither niqab nor the beard as extremist points but do consider other things as extremist, so when we say we are extremist those muslim would be concerned.

Very noble idea but in practice quite useless in my opinion. We have been doing it for a long time while our "extremist" brothers and sisters are being killed - it hasnt changed anything.
Aslan Maskhadov ( i use him as an example because in my opinion he is the best leader the muslim world has had in the last few decades) was eventually killed for being an extremist - all the whining and bleating of Muslims that he actually wasnt an extremist didnt help. Nor does it look like it is going to help in the future.
So rather than trying to impress the non-muslims with THEIR version of moderation we should stick to our brother and sisters inshalah who are being maligned.

Who spoke about non-muslims' version of moderation, we should be moderate Muslims according tot he Quran and Sunnah, full stop. Calling ourselves extremist will only serve to further alienate us, if you were telling me to done something according tothe Qu'ran and Sunnah that would alienate us then I would not mind but this is your own 'idea'. Rather then going around say 'We are extremist like our brothers an sisters in so and so, but at the same time we are moderate according to the Quran and Sunnah' it would be much better to explain that we are moderate Muslims and we hold on to everything Islam teaches us and Islam teaches us not to be extreme and then explain what extreme means.

Please do not try to resolve to your own methods of naming ourselves something that is not entirely true in order to bring about some sort of unity with others, what unity will be brought about will be non-Muslims just thinking that we are extreme like those who kill innocent men and women and children, unless you personally agree with that, do you?

Your brother Eesa :)

[Chechnya]

I feel I should put my position on everything I disagree with in your post but I wont since that in my eyes will only result in waste of time.

You have misunderstood, maybe from your end 'extremist' means just those who wear niqab and beards, but rather your mistaken, if this was the case we would not see anyone with niqabs and beards, do you think the west would let extremist run around? So your view is faulty. I know Muslims who do not see neither niqab nor the beard as extremist points but do consider other things as extremist, so when we say we are extremist those muslim would be concerned.

I'll reply in detail later inshallah - just some quick points before i go.

There are many misguided Muslims around - the condemnation of any wrong action should be enough for Muslims without having to resort to the western-used names which they use on anyone they dont happen to like.

Going by your statement it seems that Muslims are a gullible lot who dont have the brains to figure out that showing support/solidarity with so-called "extremist" brothers and sisters is not the extremism mentioned by the prophet (saw). If that is the case maybe the same people get "concerned" and start to believe when the west tells them that maskhadov is an extremist or sadulayev is a terrorist - very naive and i have never seen such naivety in any muslim yet.

Who spoke about non-muslims' version of moderation, we should be moderate Muslims according tot he Quran and Sunnah, full stop. Calling ourselves extremist will only serve to further alienate us, if you were telling me to done something according tothe Qu'ran and Sunnah that would alienate us then I would not mind but this is your own 'idea'. Rather then going around say 'We are extremist like our brothers an sisters in so and so, but at the same time we are moderate according to the Quran and Sunnah' it would be much better to explain that we are moderate Muslims and we hold on to everything Islam teaches us and Islam teaches us not to be extreme and then explain what extreme means.

Please do not try to resolve to your own methods of naming ourselves something that is not entirely true in order to bring about some sort of unity with others, what unity will be brought about will be non-Muslims just thinking that we are extreme like those who kill innocent men and women and children, unless you personally agree with that, do you?

Your brother Eesa

I spoke about the non-muslims version of moderate and extreme because nowadays more often than not it is they who are diving us into good and bad categories.
We should not let ourselves be divided in this way especially as the western interpretation of extreme in many cases is describing some of the best amongst us - i have no problems associating a word to myself that they use on our betters - not because i believe the word is correct butbecause i feel it is a way to show support for these brothers and sisters who are increasingly being isolated and killed.

Personally i would rather accept the western label of extreme than the label of moderate.
To them as they have repeatedly shown a moderate is someone like Ahmed Kadyrov, Musharaf, Irshad Manji etc. - now accepthing THAT is something that certainly will bring disunity.
I would much rather be associated with "extremists" such as Maskhadov, Sadullayev, even Basayev (though i disagree with some of his actions).

Salam

[Umar001]

My Dear Brother,

I love you for the sake of Allah but I cannot help but disagree with your view and it feels that you cannot see the point I am trying to state.

Going by your statement it seems that Muslims are a gullible lot who dont have the brains to figure out that showing support/solidarity with so-called "extremist" brothers and sisters is not the extremism mentioned by the prophet (saw). If that is the case maybe the same people get "concerned" and start to believe when the west tells them that maskhadov is an extremist or sadulayev is a terrorist - very naive and i have never seen such naivety in any muslim yet.

So what your saying is that the Muslims who do not want to be labelled extremist and do not want to be unified with extremist are 'gullible' 'who dont have brains' but you see, while I do agree that some people called extremist in the news, I cant think of any actually, but for the benefit of doubt, some people in the news might not be extreme in the western view and islamic view, the vast majority, from what we hear in the news are extreme, for example, Osama Bin Laden, IF he agrees with 9/11 would that not be extreme in ISlam? What about others who condone suicide bombing and killing of innocents and kidnapping and beheading, are those not extreme by Islamic views? These are the widest images of Extreme Muslims which are shown on TV!! This is why those who you say seem 'gullible' and so forth.

We should not let ourselves be divided in this way especially as the western interpretation of extreme in many cases is describing some of the best amongst us - i have no problems associating a word to myself that they use on our betters - not because i believe the word is correct butbecause i feel it is a way to show support for these brothers and sisters who are increasingly being isolated and killed.

So instead of defending their honour both Islamically and Westernly, i.e. Islamically showing that those brothers are not extreme in their religion and westernly showing others that they are not extreme by their definition, you choose to put yourself in the same catagory as those brothers, yet do you think if those brothers are asked 'Are you extremist' they will say yes?


I don't see much point in carrying the conversation, I havent seen any good reason for muslims to call themselves extremist, if they want to unifiy with those who are wrongly labelled extremist then all they have to do is clear those charges.

[Sabbir_1]

Mashallah this sister is amazing she speaks from the heart not afraid to speak the truth., may allah bless her.. Subhanallah where are the bros and sisters standing up for the muslims.. We need more yvonne ridleys, and george galloways..

[Keltoi]

Mashallah this sister is amazing she speaks from the heart not afraid to speak the truth., may allah bless her.. Subhanallah where are the bros and sisters standing up for the muslims.. We need more yvonne ridleys, and george galloways..

George Galloway is a Muslim? I thought he was just a shameless self-promoting BS artist.

[Chechnya]

So what your saying is that the Muslims who do not want to be labelled extremist and do not want to be unified with extremist are 'gullible' 'who dont have brains' but you see, while I do agree that some people called extremist in the news, I cant think of any actually, but for the benefit of doubt, some people in the news might not be extreme in the western view and islamic view, the vast majority, from what we hear in the news are extreme, for example, Osama Bin Laden, IF he agrees with 9/11 would that not be extreme in ISlam? What about others who condone suicide bombing and killing of innocents and kidnapping and beheading, are those not extreme by Islamic views? These are the widest images of Extreme Muslims which are shown on TV!! This is why those who you say seem 'gullible' and so forth.

If someone goes around beheading people - then he should be condemned by Muslims and be shown to be misguided, unislamic etc.
This would clearly show our position on it and that for me and most Muslims would be enough.
But to turn your point on itself the same could be said of the "moderates" - the moderates that are portrayed on our screens are the likes of Kadyrov, Musharaf, BMF etc.. These are the widest images of moderate Muslims which are shown. Majority of Muslims wont want tobe labelled moderate due to this interpretation of "moderate" where scumbags and murderers of Muslims are hailed.

Of course the only difference is many times the word "extreme" used by the western media is in reference to the best ones amongst us (hence us trying to stick with them) whereas the word "moderate" seems to be for any tom dick or harry that they can find who agrees with them.

So instead of defending their honour both Islamically and Westernly, i.e. Islamically showing that those brothers are not extreme in their religion and westernly showing others that they are not extreme by their definition, you choose to put yourself in the same catagory as those brothers, yet do you think if those brothers are asked 'Are you extremist' they will say yes?


I don't see much point in carrying the conversation, I havent seen any good reason for muslims to call themselves extremist, if they want to unifiy with those who are wrongly labelled extremist then all they have to do is clear those charges.

As i said earlier the idea seems good but in practice in my opinon it is useless.

Let me say that once upon a time i agreed with what you say and would have agreed with all your points but i think as time goes on we have to change our thinking patterns according to the situation we find ourselves in.

This has been tried for a long time - indeed some Muslims have even become apologists over this but it hasnt changed anything - people are still dying, Aslan Maskhadov was still killed for being an "extremist" despite our bleating, nothing has been achived by this except maybe we have further isolated those we sought originally to help.

I agree with you, Brother - this isnt going anywhere. You have your opinion and i have mine. While i understand your sentiments i disagree with your points.
May Allah (swt) bless you.

[Hijrah]

I'd just like to telly you guys though, the mention of sayyid qutb there is questionable, I was a big fan of his, I'm not very sure anymore, check the refutations section on this subject.