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England
12-08-2006, 09:45 PM



The Prime Minister has stressed the "duty and need" of immigrants to integrate into society.

Tony Blair used a Downing Street lecture to set out a series of measures designed to help create a society of "tolerance, solidarity and equality".

"Multicultural Britain was never supposed to be a celebration of division but of diversity, to allow people to live harmoniously despite their differences," he said.

"We need to reassert the duty and need to integrate."

Mr Blair set out a series of measures to help ease tensions between races and religions.

He reiterated his support for an English language test to ensure those wishing to settle in the UK can communicate.

And he said faith schools would be twinned with schools of other faiths to promote understanding.

Mr Blair stressed the need for citizens to accept equality and respect for all, citing forced marriage and religious prejudice against women as unacceptable.



He said everyone must obey criminal not religious law while visiting preachers from overseas will be excluded if they preach hatred.

Religious and racial groups seeking grants will also be asked to show how they promote integration.

In the address, Mr Blair insisted he did not want to dilute religious identity or abandon multiculturalism, which should continue to be celebrated.

But he said "the right balance can be struck between integration and diversity".

A national row over multiculturalism was been sparked by the suspension earlier this year of a Muslim teaching assistant who refused to remove her veil in the classroom.

Mr Blair backed that decision - saying the veil was a "mark of separation" that made people of other ethnic backgrounds feel uncomfortable.

It was also a visible symbol of the wider debate about the way the 1.8 million-strong Muslim community integrates into British society, he suggested.

The event at Number 10 is being hosted by the Runnymede Trust, an educational charity whose aim is to promote a successful multi-ethnic Britain.
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Muezzin
12-09-2006, 12:04 AM
You need to post the source mate.

I saw this on the news. I'd like to see or read the entire speech ideally. I'd best get googling...
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England
12-09-2006, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
You need to post the source mate.

I saw this on the news. I'd like to see or read the entire speech ideally. I'd best get googling...
The source of the article is
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...243353,00.html

The video of the speech is
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/vi...6_1200,00.html
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Muezzin
12-09-2006, 12:09 AM
Thanks.
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Keltoi
12-09-2006, 12:11 AM
Sounds logical to me
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Hijrah
12-09-2006, 12:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Sounds logical to me
hmmm.....that explains quite a bit about a person;D
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Keltoi
12-09-2006, 12:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hijrah
hmmm.....that explains quite a bit about a person;D
Why is that? Is integration a bad idea?
Reply

England
12-09-2006, 12:18 AM
Conform to our society, says PM

People entering the UK must be prepared to be tolerant or not become part of society, Tony Blair has said.
In a speech at Downing Street, the prime minister said that tolerance was "what makes Britain" and warned "we must be ready to defend this attitude".

The threat came not from "generalised extremism" but "a new and virulent form of ideology associated with a minority of our Muslim community".

The Muslim Association of Britain said Mr Blair's speech was "alarming".

Wars 'not helping'

A spokesman said the prime minister should be "investing in our society" to help the deprived, rather than investing "millions and billions in illegal occupations" which had "not helped to promote multiculturalism in this country".



"Rather than standing up and lecturing us, it's time he puts his money where his mouth is," the spokesman said.

Mr Blair also used the speech to reiterate a crackdown on funding for religious and racial groups, saying in the future they would have to prove they aimed to promote community integration. This measure was recently announced by Communities Secretary Ruth Kelly.

Conservative community cohesion spokesman Dominic Grieve said the speech was a "remarkable turnaround".

"Many of the problems in relation to the issues he addresses are at least in part the consequence of a philosophy of divisive multiculturalism and political correctness that has been actively promoted by the Labour Party over many years at both national and local government levels."

Funding crackdown

Liberal Democrat communities spokesman Andrew Stunell said: "We must ensure that the voices of moderation have their say, but support for organisations must not be distorted by government-driven targets or Tony Blair's personal agenda."

He said: "The right to be in a multicultural society was always implicitly balanced by a duty to integrate, to be part of Britain, to be British and Asian, British and black, British and white."

Mr Blair said "multicultural Britain" should not be dispensed with, adding: "On the contrary, we should continue celebrating it,"

But he said the suicide bombings in London on 7 July last year had thrown the whole concept of a multiculturalism "into sharp relief", the prime minister said.

"The reason we are having this debate is not generalised extremism. It is a new and virulent form of ideology associated with a minority of our Muslim community.

"It is not a problem with Britons of Hindu, Afro-Caribbean, Chinese or Polish origin. Nor is it a problem with the majoirty of the Muslim community."

'Essential values'

But he said there was a "problem with a minority of that community, particularly originating from certain countries".

The failure of that part of the community to integrate did not mean multiculturalism was dead, said Mr Blair, but it would be useful to define "common values" all citizens were "expected to conform to".

"When it comes to our essential values - belief in democracy, the rule of law, tolerance, equal treatment for all, respect for this country and its shared heritage - then that is where we come together, it is what we hold in common."

Mr Blair also said: "If you come here lawfully, we welcome you. If you are permitted to stay here permanently, you become an equal member of our community and become one of us.

"The right to be different, the duty to integrate: that is what being British means.

"And neither racists nor extremists should be allowed to destroy it."

Race equality

Mr Blair said the Equal Opportunities Commission would be looking at concerns about women's status inside Muslim communities. It will report in the spring.

He also praised Tory leader David Cameron, saying it was "not conceivable in my view" that he would seek to exploit immigration to win votes.

Labour MP Keith Vaz MP has criticised the newly formed Commission for Equality and Human Rights for taking just one of its nine commissioners from a background in working for race equality.

Only chairman Trevor Phillips had this experience, he added.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6219626.stm
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Muezzin
12-09-2006, 12:18 AM
What he seems to be saying is 'look, if you come to this country, you have to be nice and respectful to everyone. You can keep your own beliefs, but you have to respect others' beliefs too.'

I agree with that sentiment. However, the way in which he said it and the way in which it was phrased was unwise given the current tensions.
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afriend
12-09-2006, 12:22 AM
If intergration means we need to lose our identity as Muslims then stuff your idea for integration...I was born here, I get an education, pay taxes....

Why the heck do they have to meddle in everything we do man? This is turning out to be some sort of dictation. Sure I agree, we need to integrate in the sense we need to get along, help eachother out etc. etc. But not for a second will I lose my identity as a Muslim to integrate to be a 'UK citizen'....No, you can't do that. As the saying goes: I am what I am
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Keltoi
12-09-2006, 12:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
If intergration means we need to lose our identity as Muslims then stuff your idea for integration...I was born here, I get an education, pay taxes....

Why the heck do they have to meddle in everything we do man? This is turning out to be some sort of dictation. Sure I agree, we need to integrate in the sense we need to get along, help eachother out etc. etc. But not for a second will I lose my identity as a Muslim to integrate to be a 'UK citizen'....No, you can't do that. As the saying goes: I am what I am
What would make you "lose" your identity as a Muslim?
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Muezzin
12-09-2006, 12:26 AM
Integration is where you 'settle down', retaining your own idenity, and living in peace with your neighbours. Most immigrants have done this in the UK.

Assimilation on the other hand is where you, well, give up your own identity and adopt the identity of your neighbouring groups.
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afriend
12-09-2006, 12:26 AM
What would make you "lose" your identity as a Muslim?
If I was a Muslim girl wearing a veil over my face..That's my identity....Leave me alone....Get the picture?
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Umar001
12-09-2006, 12:32 AM
I personally think it is important for people who come to the Uk to be good members of society, little things like offering a smile to your neighbours or ever further society, being an honest person, and the likes I think thats a basic thing, learning English again I think its an important part and quite rightly.

I think all the above would be applicable to a person wanting to live in a Muslim State, right?
Reply

afriend
12-09-2006, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
I personally think it is important for people who come to the Uk to be good members of society, little things like offering a smile to your neighbours or ever further society, being an honest person, and the likes I think thats a basic thing, learning English again I think its an important part and quite rightly.

I think all the above would be applicable to a person wanting to live in a Muslim State, right?
Of course...

I also agree with the English part. It's extremely important!
Reply

Keltoi
12-09-2006, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
If I was a Muslim girl wearing a veil over my face..That's my identity....Leave me alone....Get the picture?
Sometimes it isn't possible to simply "leave somebody alone" wearing a veil. In certain circumstances the veil will have to be removed. I agree that veils shouldn't be banned outright, but in some situations and environments the veil should be removed.
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afriend
12-09-2006, 12:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Sometimes it isn't possible to simply "leave somebody alone" wearing a veil. In certain circumstances the veil will have to be removed. I agree that veils shouldn't be banned outright, but in some situations and environments the veil should be removed.
No doubt about it. Such places like an airport for example...it's only common sense.
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FBI
12-09-2006, 12:41 AM
:sl:

In other words don't go to iraq and fight fisibililah, that's the agenda and always will be the west inabililty to accpet Jihad in it's most controversial form. When he speaks of respect and tollarence he's basicly saying, don't speak of jihad and you'll be fine.
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Muezzin
12-09-2006, 12:42 AM
I know the issue of the veil is going to come up in this thread. I ask members to not derail it into a discussion about the veil, however.
Reply

Umar001
12-09-2006, 12:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

In other words don't go to iraq and fight fisibililah, that's the agenda and always will be the west inabililty to accpet Jihad in it's most controversial form. When he speaks and tollarence he's basicly saying, don't speak of jihad and you'll be fine.
Well if someone is gonna go iraq then why would they want to come back to the UK this is talkingabout those who are coming to the UK.[/COLOR

Plus, Iqram why would they need to have the veils off in the airport, I mean I understand at the desks when they check in and so on they can but I mean around the airport? They have cafes and resturants and so on, are they meanto sit there without the veil?

Oh man I had to edit this out because I just saw:

format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
I know the issue of the veil is going to come up in this thread. I ask members to not derail it into a discussion about the veil, however.
Reply

FBI
12-09-2006, 12:46 AM
:sl:

Well if someone is gonna go iraq then why would they want to come back to the UK this is talkingabout those who are coming to the UK.
It's about Jihad bro, he's masking what he means, he's blatently on about people who have Qitaal on their minds, they're worried it might spread.
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England
12-09-2006, 12:52 AM
It's about respect. Exactly as the Sikhs and Hindus do. They're friendly, they respect other culture, religion, way of life. They don't ask for special treatment and they don't get involved in plots on bombing their OWN home, their own country as the "minority" of muslims have done and still continue to do. Blair has also said that in order come here you will HAVE to learn to speak English in order to communicate with British citizens.
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Muezzin
12-09-2006, 12:54 AM
Why did you place the word 'minority' in speech marks?

I'm also curious as to what you meant by 'special treatment'.

I agree wholeheartedly that people should respect others, abide by the law and learn English if they move here from another country. That goes without saying.
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FBI
12-09-2006, 12:58 AM
in plots on bombing their OWN home, their own country as the "minority" of muslims have done and still continue to do. Blair has also said that in order come here you will HAVE to learn to speak English in order to communicate with British citizens.
I agree with you on this, but what about on forign soil such as iraq,chechnya,palistine, whats your views on a british muslim going to such places to help their follow muslims according to the sharia.
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England
12-09-2006, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
I agree with you on this, but what about on forign soil such as iraq,chechnya,palistine, whats your views on a british muslim going to such places to help their follow muslims according to the sharia.

I'm against it. Simple as that. I'm against the war, the population is against the war and alot of the soldiers out there are against it as they see no point. They're just being forced to do their job in which they have no option.
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England
12-09-2006, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Why did you place the word 'minority' in speech marks?

I'm also curious as to what you meant by 'special treatment'.

I agree wholeheartedly that people should respect others, abide by the law and learn English if they move here from another country. That goes without saying.
They were in quote marks to make sure that the word stood out. You're a bit sensitive.
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Muezzin
12-09-2006, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
They were in quote marks to make sure that the word stood out.
Okay.

You're a bit sensitive.
You're probably right. So what exactly did you mean by special treatment anyhow? :)
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FBI
12-09-2006, 01:05 AM
They're just being forced to do their job in which they have no option.
In my books they're guilty and according to islamic Teaching they're valid targets, They have a choice they could of just sat at home and just watched Paul O'Grady with a cup of tea instead of invading muslim land.
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Muezzin
12-09-2006, 01:07 AM
Let's not go off on a tangent here...
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FBI
12-09-2006, 01:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Let's not go off on a tangent here...
I understand but I don't think we are, just discussing a few issues which Mr Blair has issues with.
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England
12-09-2006, 01:12 AM
Such as "a separate classroom" for muslims to pray in whilst at school. The wearing of the veil during classroom lessons. Again, perhaps a minority wanting flags taken down in certain areas of the country such as Blackburn as it "causes offence," same with the Christian symbols on christmas cards, posters etc which again "causes offence." Then there is the over-reactions if a person is found to criticise anything to do with Islam.
I know you won't like this, but I'm speaking my mind.
Are we strolling off topic here?
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England
12-09-2006, 01:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
In my books they're guilty and according to islamic Teaching they're valid targets, They have a choice they could of just sat at home and just watched Paul O'Grady with a cup of tea instead of invading muslim land.

They don't have that option. Refusing to go to war whether you agree with it or not is a serious offence.
Reply

FBI
12-09-2006, 01:15 AM
"a separate classroom" for muslims to pray in
What's your problem with this issue, it's a basic requirment of a muslims daily routine.
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FBI
12-09-2006, 01:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
They don't have that option. Refusing to go to war whether you agree with it or not is a serious offence.
Well they should have picked a diffrent career path then, still doesn't give them an excuse.
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Muezzin
12-09-2006, 01:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Such as "a separate classroom" for muslims to pray in whilst at school.
Which in practice is just an empty room at lunchtimes. It shouldn't be problematic.

The wearing of the veil during classroom lessons.
Understandable. Personally, I don't see it any different from letting people dress as they like.

However, that's about all I have to say about the veil here without taking the whole thread off-topic.

Again, perhaps a minority wanting flags taken down in certain areas of the country such as Blackburn as it "causes offence," same with the Christian symbols on christmas cards, posters etc which again "causes offence."
You're certainly right that such people are a minority.

Then there is the over-reactions if a person is found to criticise anything to do with Islam.
True, but it usually comes from a minority. Doesn't make it right, just need to put it into perspective.

I know you won't like this, but I'm speaking my mind.
Fair enough.

Are we strolling off topic here?
Not quite...
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Umar001
12-09-2006, 01:42 AM
So in a democratic, free, country, people are forced to go to fight for the country and risk their lifes even if they dont agree with it, they just 'have to do their job'.

Hmm.

Do you recall a case in which a sikh boy, quiet old, wanted to carry a little dagger thing to school around his neck as part of his religion?

I think the veil nor an empty class room can compare to that.
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Umar001
12-09-2006, 01:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

It's about Jihad bro, he's masking what he means, he's blatently on about people who have Qitaal on their minds, they're worried it might spread.

Wa Aleykum salam,

No. this is talking about people intergrating. Furthermore if a person feels he need to do jihad or what ever then why would he live in the Uk and stay there, since that would mean he would be supporting his "enemy"?
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FBI
12-09-2006, 01:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Wa Aleykum salam,

No. this is talking about people intergrating. Furthermore if a person feels he need to do jihad or what ever then why would he live in the Uk and stay there, since that would mean he would be supporting his "enemy"?
:sl:

Yes but u need to see the bigger picture, and ask your self why are so many muslim groups banned in the uk and their leaders either deported or in jail, islam and so-called western ideals arn't compatable with the current state of world affairs, the veil represents modesty and instantly regonisable with islam so with Jihad that's why such people like abu Hamza are in prison, these two things can't be integrated into british society, so that's why they're trying to get rid of them, ask your self has any other issue apart from Jihad and the veil caused any controversy in the media.
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Umar001
12-09-2006, 02:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

Yes but u need to see the bigger picture, and ask your self why are so many muslim groups banned in the uk and their leaders either deported or in jail, islam and so-called western ideals arn't compatable with the current state of world affairs, the veil represents modesty and instantly regonisable with islam so with Jihad that's why such people like abu Hamza are in prison, these two things can't be integrated into british society, so that's why they're trying to get rid of them, ask your self has any other issue apart from Jihad and the veil caused any controversy in the media.
Wa Aleykum Salam Wa Rhametulah,

You see I was going to ask what 'leaders' you spoke of but I see you mean Br. Abu Hamza, from what I have seen, I disagree with his views and I don't think his view represent the truth of Islam, so him being in prison is not for me a show that Islam is being hunted down. What I see as a show of that is people arrested with no evidence, now thats a different story. As for the veil, this particular news was not about the veil but rather intergration, speaking the language, and so forth, I think there can be intergration and a veil without a problem. I do understan what you mean, but I don't think in this particular case theres anything to stand on.

If someone is at war with a country they would not live in that country.
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limitless
12-09-2006, 02:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi

Wa Aleykum salam,

No. this is talking about people intergrating. Furthermore if a person feels he need to do jihad or what ever then why would he live in the Uk and stay there, since that would mean he would be supporting his "enemy"?
:sl:

No offense, he has a point there. If muslim women wants to practise their religion like that, in that manner, then they should migrate back to their parent's homeland or to a muslim country. It is an Christian country. This is the part that annoys me the most; why are you muslims trying to be so practising your religion in a Christian land, but not in a Islamic land? Like that veil issue, covering everything up.

p.s Glad to be a Canadian Muslim :)

:w:
Reply

Woodrow
12-09-2006, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
So in a democratic, free, country, people are forced to go to fight for the country and risk their lifes even if they dont agree with it, they just 'have to do their job'.

Hmm.

Do you recall a case in which a sikh boy, quiet old, wanted to carry a little dagger thing to school around his neck as part of his religion?

I think the veil nor an empty class room can compare to that.
So in a democratic, free, country, people are forced to go to fight for the country and risk their lifes even if they dont agree with it, they just 'have to do their job'.

If the person is a citizen that is true. But, not always. At the moment the US has an all volunteer military. However if congress declares a state of war the draft will be reinstated and then all citizens between the ages of 18-35 can be called up for military duty. the draft can also be reinstated by congress if it is felt it is too small for defense.
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Umar001
12-09-2006, 03:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by limitless
:sl:

No offense, he has a point there. If muslim women wants to practise their religion like that, in that manner, then they should migrate back to their parent's homeland or to a muslim country. It is an Christian country. This is the part that annoys me the most; why are you muslims trying to be so practising your religion in a Christian land, but not in a Islamic land? Like that veil issue, covering everything up.

p.s Glad to be a Canadian Muslim :)

:w:

Wa Aleykum Salam

'he has a point there' are you talking to me sayin someone else has a point or just talking generally saying I have a point? lol am confused.

As for the underlined bit, I think that some Muslim feel that since the law is there they can use it, i.e. discrimination law and so on, it annoys me to in some ways but Alhamdulilah they are my brothers and sisters and just going through the law system.
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KAding
12-09-2006, 09:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by FBI
:sl:

It's about Jihad bro, he's masking what he means, he's blatently on about people who have Qitaal on their minds, they're worried it might spread.
Thats obvious. He doesn't want UK citizens to be treasonous and fight the UK, either at 'home' or abroad. You talk as if this is some kind of evil hidden agenda, lol. It's simply a matter of loyalty.

But then again, these issues surrounding immigration, especially Muslim immigration, are fiercely debated everywhere in Europe, also in those countries that are not really targets in this jihad. It's a reaction to the massive influx of Muslim immigrants in the last few decades. 'Jihad' is only part of it. I think the 'common people' are more distressed because they don't recognize their own neighborhoods anymore.
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FBI
12-09-2006, 12:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by limitless
:sl:

No offense, he has a point there. If muslim women wants to practise their religion like that, in that manner, then they should migrate back to their parent's homeland or to a muslim country. It is an Christian country. This is the part that annoys me the most; why are you muslims trying to be so practising your religion in a Christian land, but not in a Islamic land? Like that veil issue, covering everything up.

p.s Glad to be a Canadian Muslim :)

:w:
:sl:

But the uk isn't a Christian country.
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Malaikah
12-09-2006, 12:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by England
Such as "a separate classroom" for muslims to pray in whilst at school.
What is so bad about that? This is a requirment for us. We have to pray five times a day and one of those times happens to be during school. It would be just pointless to ban this, it makes no sense.

Anyway, take it away and I hope the kids will take over the playground and pray their instead. Kinda backfires doesnt? :?
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Keltoi
12-09-2006, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Thats obvious. He doesn't want UK citizens to be treasonous and fight the UK, either at 'home' or abroad. You talk as if this is some kind of evil hidden agenda, lol. It's simply a matter of loyalty.

But then again, these issues surrounding immigration, especially Muslim immigration, are fiercely debated everywhere in Europe, also in those countries that are not really targets in this jihad. It's a reaction to the massive influx of Muslim immigrants in the last few decades. 'Jihad' is only part of it. I think the 'common people' are more distressed because they don't recognize their own neighborhoods anymore.
I agree with this. Alot of this is simply adjusting to this community that doesn't seem to integrate as others in the past have done. Being a Muslim doesn't give you the right to preach violence(as Hamza), or give you the right to go fight "jihad" and then come back. KAding brought up the issue of normal people feeling uncomfortable because they don't recognize their neighborhoods and in some cases their cities anymore. That isn't racism or Islamophobia. Similar feelings occurred in the U.S. when Irish and Italian people would return to their neighborhoods and find that it was now a Puerto Rican neighborhood.
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