Lebanon Israel Facts the Media Isn't Telling You

[Chuck]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKq38COoTG8

[Keltoi]

but Hezbollah will tell the truth?

[Pk_#2]

but Hezbollah will tell the truth?

:rollseyes That was sooo off key.

[Fishman]

but Hezbollah will tell the truth?

:sl:
No. But don't change the subject. This is about whether Israel tells the truth or not, not about Hezbollah.
:w:

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[KAding]

His whole criticism is a bit flawed, since it's uncertain they were civilians. Everyone agrees they were the sons of a local Hamas commander and there are conflicting reports whether they were actually members. The Isreali army certainly claims they were members of Hamas. Besides, the last few minutes of Chomsky's analysis are just that, an analysis, an opinion piece, not 'facts'. The only new 'fact' he bought into the discussion was one which was misrepresented, namely as the supposed abduction of innocent civilians. Either he did not know at this time that this 'fact' was very much disputed, or he deliberately 'forgot'. His claim actually seems quite unlikely considering the relationship between the abductees and their father, a Hamas commander. If these are the 'facts' Chomsky is going to add to the discussion, he quite honestly seems little better than the media he is accusing.

It's all simply a matter of looking at a very very very long chain of events and make a decision on where in that chain to lay the blame for the current conflict. He notes that Gaza is constantly under attack. Sure, but Gaza has also constantly been used as initially a staging ground for suicide bombers and now for rocket attacks. This blame game is interesting from a political and historical perspective and certainly very effective as a motivator to keep fighting, but obviously it will not bring peace any closer. For that we need de-escalation not demonization.

[Pk_#2]

You watched the whole way through? :|

Tell the truth!

[KAding]

You watched the whole way through? :|

Tell the truth!

Yes I did. It was only five minutes or so :). At the end he went on his predictable route of Israel being a proxy for American imperial ambitions. I don't often agree with Chomsky. He is a very intelligent man no doubt, but I think he generally makes the wrong analysis on American foreign policy. He is so focused on American actions that he so often seems to forget that there are actually other players who the US is also reacting too.

[Chuck]

His whole criticism is a bit flawed, since it's uncertain they were civilians.

So? Whats the point? If you reverse the roles, hypothetically speaking, then Hamas should have responded like IDF for the capture of two soldiers?

It's all simply a matter of looking at a very very very long chain of events and make a decision on where in that chain to lay the blame for the current conflict. He notes that Gaza is constantly under attack. Sure, but Gaza has also constantly been used as initially a staging ground for suicide bombers and now for rocket attacks.

How long since palestinians been under attack and when did suicide bombs and rocket attacks has been going on?

For that we need de-escalation not demonization.

What do you suggest for de-escalation?

[Nuseyba bintkab]

that whole thing isjust sad

[KAding]

So? Whats the point? If you reverse the roles, hypothetically speaking, then Hamas should have responded like IDF for the capture of two soldiers?

Well. Yes. And we both know that if they had had the capability they would have done exactly that, being cheered by no doubt many on this forum. They try their best anyway, but they are obviously the military underdog at the moment. Besides, had they had the military advantage they would have 'liberated' all of Israel already.

How long since palestinians been under attack and when did suicide bombs and rocket attacks has been going on?

Like I said. When you want to start looking? Modern Israel got founded in 1948. It took only hours for most of the Arab world to declare war on it, including the Palestinians (although as a people they didn't exist yet). Suicide bombing became popular during the mid nineties, mainly because Hamas and Islamic Jihad wanted to sabotage the peace process.

What do you suggest for de-escalation?

I would suggest Israel retreat behind the 1967 armistice line and give up any claims to a greater Israel. I also hope the Palestinians would then be able to give up any claims on Israel proper.

It seems so easy really. Everyone knows this is how it must be arranged, but the extremists on both sides don't seem to agree. Both partially driven by an apparent religious belief that owning that land is their God-given right.

[Chuck]

Well. Yes. And we both know that if they had had the capability they would have done exactly that, being cheered by no doubt many on this forum. They try their best anyway, but they are obviously the military underdog at the moment. Besides, had they had the military advantage they would have 'liberated' all of Israel already.

Who would have cheered or Hamas would have done the same doesn't make it right. The point is the people who are supporting Israel on this would have supported this if the situation was reversed on them?

Suicide bombing became popular during the mid nineties, mainly because Hamas and Islamic Jihad wanted to sabotage the peace process.

Sources?

I would suggest Israel retreat behind the 1967 armistice line and give up any claims to a greater Israel. I also hope the Palestinians would then be able to give up any claims on Israel proper.

It seems so easy really. Everyone knows this is how it must be arranged, but the extremists on both sides don't seem to agree. Both partially driven by an apparent religious belief that owning that land is their God-given right.

I agree with you except the last sentence. Extremist are every where, esp. they normally surface themselves in tense situations. International community puts the reasonable pressure on both (Israel and Palestine) to stop the violence, but I hope US becomes unbiased player, put equal pressure on Israel to stop the violence as it puts on Israel, and I hope international forces put between on the two based on 1967 borders until things cool down and two state plan is completed. I think majority of people on both sides would not oppose 1967 borders.

Like you said solution is not difficult, but it needs enforcement, because Israel and Palestine are like two fighting lads in a play ground. They won't stop until someone breaks them apart and stop the tit-for-tat retaliation. And the longer it goes, the more problem it'll create for rest of the world.

Imagine if it would have been resolved before 90s, then perhaps we wouldn't suicide bombers in Mideast. But I don't see a solution anytime soon, and people don't learn until they suffer a big loss. For example, Europe was a big mess before the 2 world wars. Until after the 2 world wars they learned not to fight. I just hope history doesn't repeat itself.