World Academics, Rabbis Debate Holocaust

[Pure]

World Academics, Rabbis Debate Holocaust

IslamOnline.net & Newspapers

CAIRO — Academics and Jewish rabbis from several world countries huddled together in Tehran on Monday, December 11, to discuss the Holocaust, with host Iran pledging to endorse the outcome of the scholarly debate, reported Israel's Haaretz daily.
"The aim of this conference is not to deny or confirm the Holocaust," Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki told the opening session of the conference.

"Its main aim is to create an opportunity for thinkers who cannot express their views freely in Europe about the Holocaust."

A number of prominent Western historians have shown up for the two-day scholarly debate, including French professor Robert Faurisson and German-born Australian Fredrick Toeben.

Mottaki said the conference, "Review of the Holocaust: Global Vision," aims to find answers to the questioning of the Holocaust by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

"The simple question of the president of Iran: 'If the Holocaust is a historical event why can it not be researched?' set off a wave of accusations against Iran without trying to find a logical answer," he maintained.

The top diplomat said Tehran would endorse the Holocaust if scholars conclude it did take place.

According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the Holocaust refers to "systematic state-sponsored killing of Jewish men, women, and children and others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II."

The commonly used figure for the number of Jewish victims is six million.

Ahmadinejad has repeatedly questioned the truth of the Holocaust, at one point describing it as a "myth" and casting doubt on the scale of the killings.

The victims figure has also been questioned by some historians and intellectuals, chiefly French author Roger Garaudy

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[root]

Whilst in Iran it seems suss that one can apparently openly criticise the holocaust with inpunity. However, don't criticise the Iranian president or else they throw you in jail.

How pathetic.

[Pure]

Holocaust denial is criminalized in a number of European countries including Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Switzerland.

Despite his retraction, British historian David Irving was sentenced for three years in prison for his denial of the Holocaust.

French writer Georges Thiel has also been convicted in France for the same reason.

"Jewish people have been persecuted, that is true, they have been deported, that is true, but there was no machinery of murder in any camp -- no gas chambers," he said, describing the Holocaust as "an enormous lie".

something to think about..

[Keltoi]

something to think about..

Why is that something to "think about?" It is easy to make a claim, but the Holocaust has been documented with mountains of evidence. Something to "think about" might be why some people have the agenda of denying an event such as the Holocaust.

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[Trumble]

something to think about..

It certainly is. The gullibility of some people never ceases to amaze me, or the depths some people will sink to for political ends.

Whilst in Iran it seems suss that one can apparently openly criticise the holocaust with inpunity. However, don't criticise the Iranian president or else they throw you in jail.

How pathetic.

That obvious hypocrisy apart they do have a point on free speech. This is one I happen to agree with J S Mill on, anyway... such things should be discussed if only to keep them in the public eye and (in this case) expose Holocaust denial as the nonsense it is.

[IzakHalevas]

something to think about..

I have been to the Holocaust camps in Poland, and I have seen personally the gas chambers where my fellow Jews died. Are you to be so oblivious to lie straight to my face?

The only thing to think about is your ignorance.

By the way, almost every Orthodox Jewish group has excommunicated these idol worshipers.

http://israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=117448

My Grand Rabbi refuses to allow those idol worshipors in our shul. They take there fanatzical Rebbes commands over G-d's! It is an abomination!

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

what is fearful is that right of free speech,,,,in some cases other have more rights that some..

Is that right?

i think that the holocaust deniers and confirmer are like those on SEP 11.

Some say it should be ivnestigated further and question asked,and the other side say EITHER YOU ARE WITH US OR AGAINST US..

I hope youc an guess whom is who and who call the other unpatriotic..LOL

So i hope the finding be aired..and the knowledge of the truth be passed to the world.

[Pietro]

Salaam,

what is fearful is that right of free speech,,,,in some cases other have more rights that some..

Is that right?

i think that the holocaust deniers and confirmer are like those on SEP 11.

Some say it should be ivnestigated further and question asked,and the other side say EITHER YOU ARE WITH US OR AGAINST US..

I hope youc an guess whom is who and who call the other unpatriotic..LOL

So i hope the finding be aired..and the knowledge of the truth be passed to the world.

You do know there are miles of files that verify that the holocaust did happen. Many of the people that were involved in the massacres admitted they did it under the guise of they were only following orders.

[ManchesterFolk]

There are I think 20 miles of Nazi files that are there... there are over 1,000 from other sources.

I laugh at your the ignorance of the Holocaust denier Neo-Nazi's that we have here.

[Trumble]

i think that the holocaust deniers and confirmer are like those on SEP 11.

Some say it should be ivnestigated further and question asked,and the other side say EITHER YOU ARE WITH US OR AGAINST US..

I hope youc an guess whom is who and who call the other unpatriotic..LOL

So i hope the finding be aired..and the knowledge of the truth be passed to the world.

You really think the point of Ahmenejad's little joke is to get at the 'truth'?!

The whole point of this farce is a dig at the Israelis, a dig at the West in general regarding those wretched cartoons and a bid to gain kudos from the same people who actually believe the assorted anti-semitic trash that goes out on Iranian TV.

The truth is known. Except among those seeking cheap political points, rabid anti-semites and the ignorant it is not disputed. Nobody is holding a conference into deciding whether the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour is 'true' or whether the Americans nuking Hiroshima is 'true'.

[Agnostic]

Its sick that anyone would even call it a debate over the Holocaust with Ahmadinejad's hand picked deniers like Robert faurisson, Fredrick toeben and David Duke
What a farce

[Zulkiflim]

You really think the point of Ahmenejad's little joke is to get at the 'truth'?!

The whole point of this farce is a dig at the Israelis, a dig at the West in general regarding those wretched cartoons and a bid to gain kudos from the same people who actually believe the assorted anti-semitic trash that goes out on Iranian TV.

The truth is known. Except among those seeking cheap political points, rabid anti-semites and the ignorant it is not disputed. Nobody is holding a conference into deciding whether the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour is 'true' or whether the Americans nuking Hiroshima is 'true'.

Salaam,

Is to find out truth anti semitic?

Is it in support of Israela nd jews that you readily accept that the holocaust happened as described?

You see,in this case,you are stopping Ahmednijad from facing the truth.
You are showing your hatred to any one who doubts who wishes to learn.

Ahmednijad invited the entire world to discuss ...not to make his point.

If he wanted to only showcase that the holocasut did not happen,then he should have just invited the KKK alone,or the Nazis(yes they exist even now).

Like i said before,it is the same with Sep 11.
Established/official proof from the goverment cannot be questioned and if it is it is unpatriotic.

So we all come to our own conclusion right,so let the finding be made for the entire world.

PS,did you know that even now Japan do not admit to murder or using gassing on chinese in China?Even with all the proof,,,and NO ONE IS TAKING THE JAPANESE to task for it..
Care to know how many millions of chinese were tortured,gassed and murdered by the Japapnese,but they never admitted?

So you must ask yourself,is the Japanese right for doubting what they did even with proof?
Is it right?
History will tell,as winner makes history..

[Zulkiflim]

There are I think 20 miles of Nazi files that are there... there are over 1,000 from other sources.

I laugh at your the ignorance of the Holocaust denier Neo-Nazi's that we have here.

Salaam,

And did you know that the number of fiction books can cover the world 5 times,,but not a word of it is true.

Just imagine,established science thatwas in the 1800 compared to now,many PROVEN Facts debunked.

Anyone who set in stone his thinking about truth trulyl is not progressive.

Ahmednijad is not just one person who doubts the Holocasut but many more,maybe million,,who knows,but what is clear is that there are people who doubt.

do you force understadning or do you discuss from BOTH viewpoint and BOTH arguments?

[Trumble]

And did you know that the number of fiction books can cover the world 5 times,,but not a word of it is true.

That is the nature of fiction. It is not the nature of official government documents. You could have forged a few, sure, but in this case the scale of the record makes such a suggestion complete nonsense.

Is to find out truth anti semitic?

No. But as I explained this conference has nothing whatsoever to do with finding out the truth. That is not its purpose.

Is it in support of Israela nd jews that you readily accept that the holocaust happened as described?

I don't actually 'support' either, at least ahead of anybody else. I accept it happened as described because all the evidence is that it did. Nazi documents, confessions, first hand accounts of both victims and of the soldiers, Western Allies and Russian, who liberated the death camps. I'm not stupid enough to think the point of view of a few rabid anti-semites, neo-Nazis, KKK members and an Iranian with a blatant political agenda to undermine and destroy the State of Israel represents a serious historical argument for anything. It does not. The truth is known... and confirming it is not on the conference agenda.

PS,did you know that even now Japan do not admit to murder or using gassing on chinese in China?Even with all the proof,,,and NO ONE IS TAKING THE JAPANESE to task for it..
Care to know how many millions of chinese were tortured,gassed and murdered by the Japapnese,but they never admitted?

So you must ask yourself,is the Japanese right for doubting what they did even with proof?
Is it right?
History will tell,as winner makes history..

I have no idea what your point here is supposed to be, you just seem intent on shooting yourself in the foot. Sure, the Japanese have refused acknowledge many atrocious war crimes. War crimes that nobody else doubts took place. Again, the truth is known, and again 'denial' is just an act of stupidity and disrespect.. but again with a political purpose. Unlike Nazi war crimes, though, I don't see Ahmenijad rushing to hold any conference to decide whether the Nanjing massacre actually happened. The victims were Chinese and not Jews.

[YusufNoor]

:salamext:

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

The top diplomat said Tehran would endorse the Holocaust if scholars conclude it did take place.

According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the Holocaust refers to "systematic state-sponsored killing of Jewish men, women, and children and others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II."

The commonly used figure for the number of Jewish victims is six million.

Ahmadinejad has repeatedly questioned the truth of the Holocaust, at one point describing it as a "myth" and casting doubt on the scale of the killings.

why is it i get the feeling that there's a play on words there? "The top diplomat said Tehran would endorse the Holocaust" :-[

you know, i believe he will endorse it. :heated:

but i guess i'll hope and pray that his eyes will be opened. but that just seems pretty optomistic...

:wasalamex

[Trumble]

why is it i get the feeling that there's a play on words there? "The top diplomat said Tehran would endorse the Holocaust" :-[

I suspect it was just poor use of English (by the reporter rather than the diplomat) rather than a deliberate play on words. Let's hope so, anyway!

[Zulkiflim]

That is the nature of fiction. It is not the nature of official government documents. You could have forged a few, sure, but in this case the scale of the record makes such a suggestion complete nonsense.




No. But as I explained this conference has nothing whatsoever to do with finding out the truth. That is not its purpose.



I don't actually 'support' either, at least ahead of anybody else. I accept it happened as described because all the evidence is that it did. Nazi documents, confessions, first hand accounts of both victims and of the soldiers, Western Allies and Russian, who liberated the death camps. I'm not stupid enough to think the point of view of a few rabid anti-semites, neo-Nazis, KKK members and an Iranian with a blatant political agenda to undermine and destroy the State of Israel represents a serious historical argument for anything. It does not. The truth is known... and confirming it is not on the conference agenda.




I have no idea what your point here is supposed to be, you just seem intent on shooting yourself in the foot. Sure, the Japanese have refused acknowledge many atrocious war crimes. War crimes that nobody else doubts took place. Again, the truth is known, and again 'denial' is just an act of stupidity and disrespect.. but again with a political purpose. Unlike Nazi war crimes, though, I don't see Ahmenijad rushing to hold any conference to decide whether the Nanjing massacre actually happened. The victims were Chinese and not Jews.

Salaam,


Firsttly,i would say that a small lie that starts in the first place and propogated to be truth would more have the same points printed over and over again...LOL

case in point,Iraq has no WMD but because the lie was writtena dn spoekn so many times by the media,,people still beleive it.

So saying a notion is publicised and popular does not make it right it just makes it current...which cna be debunked after much investigation,,case in point Iraq war,no wmd all lies...

But again,the warhawks would use every manner to stop investigation and marginlaise the war in any form....thank god for investigators...

and the purpose of the forum is simple again i reiterate,the question was asked and all are asked to answer,if detractors say,FOR SHAME TO DOUBT,,but place no new evidence to support or to counter Ahmednijab claim,then who is the loser?

why not show the proof to ahmednijab and get understanding instead of forcing everyone to just accept the notion of the holocasut?

Do any Jew or american consider the outrage that Israel is doing to Palesitnian DAILY a holocasut?The Holocasue existed for a few years but how long has the toment endured for the Palestinians?

Denial..is the issue,,ignorance is complicit..

And if you beleive it then you believe it,it dont make it true for other just for you.And other like minded,but question will arise and thus to silence such question laws in germany are enacted to FORCE PEOPLE TO ACCEPT THE HOLOCASUT..

If it was widely known why then for a law to pass?Resititution?Rememebrance? Anything?

And your reason for saying you beleive that the Holocasut happened as you ahd all these docuemnt and first hand experience and so on...
Did you know that China has an entire BUILDING on the atrocities and has records of every witness of the Japanese atrocity?

And for those same atrocities the Japanese deny and claim with their own proof that it never happened?

and did you know that Japan has even begin teaching their version of the invasion as they see it..

so the link is this....REASOn....why do people want to view the way they do.

As you pointed out,,Holocaust facts and so on....So does china have It..
So does Vietnam(agent orange).. So does myanmar..

But both sides have their own version of what happens.

So thru all this grey area,come in ivnestigators and questioner to put 2 and 2 together.to discuss and reveal finding..

So again i ask you,,do you force people into submission or get their understanding?

For you the Holocasut happened,for some it did not happen the way it is reported
Japan is a belligerent state that has never apologized for any atrocities,but for the Japanese they think they are maligned
For theVietnamese,,the US insistece on not recognizing any of their brutal tactic int he war is UNFORGIVING..,for the US they do not even wish to discuss it..

So tell me,in any of those cases whose view do you to follow,or would you have laws to say BElieve this and that?

with all this double story,can you balme if there are doubts?
Will you discuss and allay this doubt or jail and force people into accepting your way of thinking?


ahmednijab,has said he did not beleive,but ask for input..
And here are detractors who say,DONT DOUBT,JUST BELEIVE>..

[Trumble]

For theVietnamese,,the US insistece on not recognizing any of their brutal tactic int he war is UNFORGIVING..,for the US they do not even wish to discuss it..

Actually, it has been very heavily discussed; America went through a major guilt-trip for more than 20 years. Aside from which it was a very brutal war on BOTH sides. There is no serious dispute now about who did what in Vietnam, only as to whether it was justified or not.

with all this double story,can you balme if there are doubts?
Will you discuss and allay this doubt or jail and force people into accepting your way of thinking?

As I said earlier, I have no objection to the Holocaust being discussed and neither do I object to people exercising free speech in saying it never happened. I certainly have no wish to force anybody to do anything, and as it happens I disapprove of laws that punish Holocaust denial with prison sentences.

None of which changes my basic point that this conference has absolutely nothing to do with seeking historical truth. There would be absolutely no point in presenting evidence to Ahmenejad proving that the Holocaust happened - he already knows full well that it did, the man is not stupid. Establishing historical truth is not his purpose. His agenda is to provide a platform for whatever fictional dirt might weaken the justification for the existence of the State of Israel.

[Ninth_Scribe]

Salaam, Is to find out truth anti semitic?

I see no reason why this avenue shouldn't be allowed. It's about time these religious and community leaders fessed up that these debates existed and belong on the table. Judeans were always notorious debaters and held an Assembly to deal with each and every issue that came up during the course of their generations. For some reason, that whole process was stopped - and the issues have piled up as high as Heaven, unresolved. That problem seems to have infected the Muslims now, as well.

C'mon you Judeans... take your positions at the table and show them how this is done! This debate is one of the more easier ones, to encourage and re-ignite the old talent that lays sleeping inside you. Have it out.

Ninth Scribe

[Zulkiflim]

Actually, it has been very heavily discussed; America went through a major guilt-trip for more than 20 years. Aside from which it was a very brutal war on BOTH sides. There is no serious dispute now about who did what in Vietnam, only as to whether it was justified or not.



As I said earlier, I have no objection to the Holocaust being discussed and neither do I object to people exercising free speech in saying it never happened. I certainly have no wish to force anybody to do anything, and as it happens I disapprove of laws that punish Holocaust denial with prison sentences.

None of which changes my basic point that this conference has absolutely nothing to do with seeking historical truth. There would be absolutely no point in presenting evidence to Ahmenejad proving that the Holocaust happened - he already knows full well that it did, the man is not stupid. Establishing historical truth is not his purpose. His agenda is to provide a platform for whatever fictional dirt might weaken the justification for the existence of the State of Israel.

+

Salaam,

A guilt trip,,hmm,,i wodner can emotion deal with physical pain endured by the million that were destroyed by agent orange?


Was it justified for a soverign nation to be invaded and its people murdered,then when they fight back they are the wrong ones..

History repating itself in Iraq,the US used depleted uranium,arsenic ,phosphorous and its affects are wide ranging...but will the US take it into their own cost?Nope...the Iraqis will bear the brunt..

Same for all the places where million died wiht no succour,while the powerful oppress and deny tampering.

As to there being no more serious dispute,i would say other wise.

All i hope is that the aggresors and those who marginlaise the pain the suffering they cost to toher suffer the smae consequneces in hell a thousand fold..Inshallah,,let their deeds be their ****ation..


And as you say Ahmednijab is seeking a platform to make the dirt thicker,to create conspiracies and so on,,,,,if that is so then he not have invited people who supported the Holocaust nor did he need to make the forum.

All he had to do is to remain quite.And people doubts will grow.

But with this forum it show opposing sides and their argument and counter arguments.

that is good is it not for one to make an informed decision?

So let us hope that the Iranian post the entire finding and word spoken by each person there.

For all of us to make an informed choice,,instead of being goaded to beleive,or unlawful to disbeleive.