Embryology Timing

[chris4336]

Hello all. Since I have been struggling with changing my own morals to correspond with what Islam teaches, I have decided that to find the real truth, it's probably best for me to look at some of the scientific evidence in Quran (my thinking is that if I believe it's from God, it doesn't really matter what it teaches). So I started with the very popular topic of embryology, more specifically the verse 23:14.

Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

Most of the Islamic websites correlate the clot phase (alaqah) to very early in embryological development, and then the lump (mudghah) to the development of somites at around 28 days of development. I agree the early embry looks very much like a clot, and at 28 days looks very much like it has teeth marks.

My question is regarding the Hadiths. There are 2 that seem to say these stages occur later in the pregnancy:

Allah's Apostle, the truthful and truly-inspired, said, "Each one of you collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter). Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 593:

and

Allah's Apostle the true and truly inspired, narrated to us, "The creation of everyone of you starts with the process of collecting the material for his body within forty days and forty nights in the womb of his mother. Then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period (40 days) and then he becomes like a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then an angel is sent to him (by Allah) and the angel is allowed (ordered) to write four things; his livelihood, his (date of) death, his deeds, and whether he will be a wretched one or a blessed one (in the Hereafter) and then the soul is breathed into him

Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 546:

So do these hadiths mean that the clot phase is really 40-80 days into pregnancy? I am looking in my embryology book, and by 40 days you can see some limb and head development. And by 80 days there is pretty clear develoment of a head, legs, and arm. Or is this interpretation incorrect?

Does anyone have a link to an Islamic response for this. Or more information on the timing of embryological development in the Quran and Hadith.

Thank you.

[Umar001]

I am a little confused,

So you agree that the description used in the Qu'ran of alaqah, a clot, leach, something that hangs type of thing is accurate, and your then also agree that the description of a chewed like subtance used in the quran is also accurate too.

Right?


Also, what is there that links the ahadith with the Qu'ran ayah?

[chris4336]

Yes correct. Sorry if the post was confusing. I agree with the descriptions in the time periods that Muslim scientists use to describe them (ie: the clot at like 20 days and the chewed flesh at 28 days.) The chewed flesh seems to me especially interesting because of the development of somites which really do look like teeth marks.

These time periods, however, seem different then the time periods in the 2 Hadiths. It seems like the hadith is saying the clot phase is 40 days after fertilization and the chewed phase 80 days, which is pretty late to describe the embryo as a clot because by 40 days it is starting to form a head, and limb buds and stuff.

I did find this stuff on a refuting Islam page (but I was not specifically looking for anti Islam pages just googling "Quran embryology" and I did not find a good refutation, so I figured I would find it on this page.

Finally the links for the Hadiths and Quranic verse are:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...i/077.sbt.html
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...i/093.sbt.html
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/023.qmt.html

EDIT: Sorry I thought you meant links. Oh what links these verse together? Well I am not sure, just the fact that they both use the description of clot and then lump of flesh. If your are going to say it looks like a clot then a chewed lump in the very beginning (20-28 days) then at 40 days it looks like a clot again, then at 80 days looks like flesh again this does not make too much sense to me.

[Umar001]

Yes correct. Sorry if the post was confusing. I agree with the descriptions in the time periods that Muslim scientists use to describe them (ie: the clot at like 20 days and the chewed flesh at 28 days.) The chewed flesh seems to me especially interesting because of the development of somites which really do look like teeth marks.

These time periods, however, seem different then the time periods in the 2 Hadiths. It seems like the hadith is saying the clot phase is 40 days after fertilization and the chewed phase 80 days, which is pretty late to describe the embryo as a clot because by 40 days it is starting to form a head, and limb buds and stuff.

I did find this stuff on a refuting Islam page (but I was not specifically looking for anti Islam pages just googling "Quran embryology") and I did not find a good refutation, so I figured I would find it on this page.

Finally the links for the Hadiths and Quranic verse are:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...i/077.sbt.html
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...i/093.sbt.html
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/023.qmt.html

Ok, well I don't know with regards to whether the hadith is talking a bout a different part. As in talking of a summary of stages if that makes sense, I will have to let someone who knows that part go into that.

I will just ask though, the word for clot has three meanings, all the meaning describe the embryo at that stage;

Leech like:

Something that Hangs:

And the clot thing.

Also then you agree about the somites, I just want to focous on this because personally, to me, it is abit amazing that not only is there a correct discription of the embryo but one that is correct in all ways, a word chosen to represent the embryo. Must be a lucky guess, some say.

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[chris4336]

Eesa yes I do agree with you that its pretty amazing, and I did not know that about the 3 definitions but I find that very interesting as well. Yes, the somites are very cool, just because they really do look exactly like tiny teeth marks. I have seen the pictures you are putting up, and they do correspond with the Quran, but they are well before the forty day mark.

So can someone please help with the Hadiths? Is it describing the embryo as a clot at day 40 in the womb? And then is the description used in the Quran as chewed lump the same as in the Hadith that says its a piece of flesh after 80 days? I hope this is making some sense...

[`Abd al-Azeez]

This should help :)

http://www.abc.se/~m9783/n/hfhl_e.html

[Abu Zakariya]

http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detai...main_cat_id=31