Why celebrate christmas?

[SirDemonic]

Why celebrate christmas?
Christians say that they celebrate birth of jesus,
But no one knows when jesus was born, it even states in the bible
and also santa claus? who is he? did you know santa claus wore green clothing then coca cola changed it to red? big company can change the entire face of the earth.

so why celebrate christmas?

[IzakHalevas]

did you know santa claus wore green clothing then coca cola changed it to red? big company can change the entire face of the earth.

When did that happen? Do you have a source?

[Umar001]

But no one knows when jesus was born, it even states in the bible

?? it even states in the Bible?? What that noone knows when Jesus was born? Peace be upon him.

I think over the years I have seen many Christians disagree about Christmas some actually opposing it quite sternly.

My family celebrates Christmas on the 7 of January. Because thats when they do it back home. Also, many don't say 'Jesus happy birth day' or anything, they just use it as a time to think of Jesus and life and death and so forth and be thankful, just as some Muslims who celebrate the Birth of Muhammad though they dont know the date say 'We only just want to think of Muhammad's life on this date'
Not that I agree with that.

Eesa

[SirDemonic]

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...1143940AAykJo8

Happy?

And also google it, if you dont bealive me =)

Advertisment is powerfull my brother.

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[IzakHalevas]

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...1143940AAykJo8

Happy?

And also google it, if you dont bealive me =)

Advertisment is powerfull my brother.

Interesting, something I never knew. Thank you for telling me this new info. :D

[SirDemonic]

Interesting, something I never knew. Thank you for telling me this new info. :D

No problem :)

I always have infos coming through my ears ;D

[Grace Seeker]

Why celebrate christmas?
Christians say that they celebrate birth of jesus,
But no one knows when jesus was born, it even states in the bible
and also santa claus? who is he? did you know santa claus wore green clothing then coca cola changed it to red? big company can change the entire face of the earth.

so why celebrate christmas?

Why celebrate Christmas?

For those who do not believe in the message of God coming incarnate among us;for those who do not believe in celebrating God's gracious actions toward us;for those who think that Jesus was just a man or perhaps even a myth, then there is no reason to celebrate. It is not your celebration, and you are most lilkely to misunderstand even that which you observe of other's celebration.

For those who have no faith in a living, present, personal God who steps into the world to save it from itself and its own self-destructive ways; for those who are concerned about what they will receive in gift exchanges; for those who look at corporate bottom lines, then there is no reason to celebrate. What you have invented is some other celebration not linked in any meaningful way to the one honored in the very name of the celebration, but forgotten in its practice.

For those who will celebrate virtually anything if it comes with enough lights, ribbon, or fanfare; for those who are caught up on fanciful stories and desire mainly for an emotional outlet; for those who think that eggnog and fruitcake and parties with food is what makes a celebration; this celebration is not for you either. For you could and would celebrate at the drop of a hat. You create celebrations that are all about yourself.

There are many reasons that people give for celebrating Christmas, but there is only one that captures the real reason, one wants to honor Christ. Yes, we could do that and should do that any and even every other day of the year. But this is a special day set aside, just one among many, for the One who came to give his life for the many. And in response to that gift we still proclaim: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace and good will among men.

That's why we celebrate Christmas, because Christ is worth of such a celebration.

[snakelegs]

My family celebrates Christmas on the 7 of January. Because thats when they do it back home. Also, many don't say 'Jesus happy birth day' or anything, they just use it as a time to think of Jesus and life and death and so forth and be thankful, just as some Muslims who celebrate the Birth of Muhammad though they dont know the date say 'We only just want to think of Muhammad's life on this date'
Not that I agree with that.
Eesa

where are you from? any reason why jan. 7 specifically?
it sounds like a very sane way to celebrate. here it has become a hideous consumer spectacle.

[SirDemonic]

Why celebrate Christmas?

For those who do not believe in the message of God coming incarnate among us;for those who do not believe in celebrating God's gracious actions toward us;for those who think that Jesus was just a man or perhaps even a myth, then there is no reason to celebrate. It is not your celebration, and you are most lilkely to misunderstand even that which you observe of other's celebration.

For those who have no faith in a living, present, personal God who steps into the world to save it from itself and its own self-destructive ways; for those who are concerned about what they will receive in gift exchanges; for those who look at corporate bottom lines, then there is no reason to celebrate. What you have invented is some other celebration not linked in any meaningful way to the one honored in the very name of the celebration, but forgotten in its practice.

For those who will celebrate virtually anything if it comes with enough lights, ribbon, or fanfare; for those who are caught up on fanciful stories and desire mainly for an emotional outlet; for those who think that eggnog and fruitcake and parties with food is what makes a celebration; this celebration is not for you either. For you could and would celebrate at the drop of a hat. You create celebrations that are all about yourself.

There are many reasons that people give for celebrating Christmas, but there is only one that captures the real reason, one wants to honor Christ. Yes, we could do that and should do that any and even every other day of the year. But this is a special day set aside, just one among many, for the One who came to give his life for the many. And in response to that gift we still proclaim: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace and good will among men.

That's why we celebrate Christmas, because Christ is worth of such a celebration.

yeh but majority of christians celebrate christmas for presents, non go to church or anything, Its like theirs good and bad muslims out their but atleast bad muslims go to mosque every friday once a week, christians friends i got admit that they never go to church and celebrate christmas for presents. Is christmas worth celebrating? might aswell celebrate eid aswell, Good Christians who go to church deserve to celebrate and what more christians only go church when their born, getting married and when someone died.

Christmas is a good thing it's like eid

[Keltoi]

yeh but majority of christians celebrate christmas for presents, non go to church or anything, Its like theirs good and bad muslims out their but atleast bad muslims go to mosque every friday once a week, christians friends i got admit that they never go to church and celebrate christmas for presents. Is christmas worth celebrating? might aswell celebrate eid aswell, Good Christians who go to church deserve to celebrate and what more christians only go church when their born, getting married and when someone died.

Christmas is a good thing it's like eid

Yes, many times Christians will participate in the gift giving/Santa Clause side of Christmas. That doesn't mean they don't understand or acknowledge the spiritual dimension of the holiday. On a personal note, my family participates in the colored lights and gift giving on Christmas, but we also recognize the importance of the holiday as Christians, through prayer and good works. Their is the secular/cultural dimension of Christmas and the spiritual/religious side of Christmas, they aren't mutually exclusive. If you don't like Christmas, then don't celebrate it. To me and millions of other Christians it is what it is, the celebration of our Savior's birth.
Another thing....isn't it slightly strange for a person with the screename "Sir Demonic" to be lecturing Christians about Christmas?

[north_malaysian]

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...1143940AAykJo8

Happy?

And also google it, if you dont bealive me =)

Advertisment is powerfull my brother.

then... who advertised Santas' helpers outfit?

[glo]

yeh but majority of christians celebrate christmas for presents, non go to church or anything, Its like theirs good and bad muslims out their but atleast bad muslims go to mosque every friday once a week, christians friends i got admit that they never go to church and celebrate christmas for presents. Is christmas worth celebrating? might aswell celebrate eid aswell, Good Christians who go to church deserve to celebrate and what more christians only go church when their born, getting married and when someone died.

Greetings SirDemonic

I don't know where you live. I am speaking for the UK right now, because this is where I live.

I think you have to remember that Christmas is not just celebrated by Christians at all.
It is also celebrated by secular Westerners, who pay very little if any heed to the Christian message.
So many people, who celebrate Christmas are neither 'good' nor 'bad' Christians, but would not call themselves Christians at all!

You are right, Christmas is the time when the churches are suddenly packed with people, who have not set foot inside all year!
Does the same happen in mosques at eid?

Personally, I would love to see the secular and the religious celebrations separated - but since that is not likely to happen the separation occurs in people's hearts.
God knows our hearts and our intentions, he knows whether we approach Christmas with a secular mind, or whether to remember God's sacrifice to us and out of a desire to love and serve him.
God knows best!

Peace

[north_malaysian]

Does the same happen in mosques at eid?

Yeah... and Fridays too...

[north_malaysian]

Glo, does your church have nativity scene?

[snakelegs]

thought we could have a christmas thread - questions for christians.
couple of questions i have:
do christians mind when we say or write "xmas"? is it insulting/offensive?
how old is the custom of giving presents?
also, is there any connection between the magi of the nativity story and the magians (zoroastrians)?
thanks

[glo]

Glo, does your church have nativity scene?

No, we don't ... we don't even have a church building. We meet in a school hall.
There are no decorations, so pictures, not even a cross - just chairs and a wooden pulpit to speak from.

[north_malaysian]

No, we don't ... we don't even have a church building. We meet in a school hall.
There are no decorations, so pictures, not even a cross - just chairs and a wooden pulpit to speak from.

What's your church name?:rollseyes

[glo]

It's non-denominational

[north_malaysian]

It's non-denominational

So it mixed of Catholic-Protestant-Orthodox kind of church?:?

[north_malaysian]

"XMAS" - insulting? I thought it just making the word Christmas shorter?:rollseyes

[glo]

So it mixed of Catholic-Protestant-Orthodox kind of church?:?

No.
It isn't affiliated to any denomination.
Rather it tries to go back to the Bible itself, to Jesus' teachings and to the early churches.

That does not mean that other denominations don't do the same, but some have accumulated other traditions and rituals along the way, which are not founded directly on the Bible.

I hope this makes sense.

Peace

[Trumble]

do christians mind when we say or write "xmas"? is it insulting/offensive?

Not in the UK, anyway. As north_malaysian said, it's just an abbreviation. I guess some devout Christians might find it irritating, but not really offensive or insulting.

how old is the custom of giving presents?

Just googled that up;

One of the earliest known customs of giving presents around the time of the winter solstice was during the Roman festival of the Kalends, which occurred on the first day of January. Such gifts were known as strenae.

High ranking officials of the Roman Administration were expected to present gifts to their Emperor during the Kalends. In fact, Caligula went to the extent of declaring an edict which obliged them to do so. He would stand impatiently at the front door of his palace waiting for them to arrive.

Originally, these gifts had taken the form of branches of evergreen taken from the grove of the goddess Strenia; but Caligula was not very keen on olive branches. So, the Roman dignitaries began to give gifts of honey and cakes as symbols of their wish that the new year might be full of sweetness, and gold that it might bring prosperity. That made Caligula much happier, as he was very keen on prosperity, especially his own.

The words 'Kriss Kringle' mean Christ-child and is the basis of a medieval legend, that the infant Jesus himself gave presents. This helped to establish Christmas Day as an occasion for Christians to give gifts. In those days presents were very modest and included such things as cakes, fruit, nuts, dolls and items of clothing.

also, is there any connection between the magi of the nativity story and the magians (zoroastrians)?
thanks

Yup. It seems likely that the Magi (Median priests) adopted Zoroastrianism, having originally opposed it, several hundred years prior to the birth of Jesus. That may well have still been combined with, or at least influenced by, their earlier beliefs. How much truth there is in the nativity story, and who was actually involved, are, of course, different questions.

[Trumble]

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...1143940AAykJo8

Happy?

And also google it, if you dont bealive me =)

I did. It's just urban myth time, I'm afraid. The facts are here.

Santa
Claus is perhaps the most remarkable of all the figures associated with Christmas. To us, Santa has always been an essential part of the Christmas celebration, but the modern image of Santa didn't develop until well into the 19th century. Moreover, he didn't spring to life fully-formed as a literary creation or a commercial invention (as did his famous reindeer, Rudolph). Santa Claus was an evolutionary creation, brought about by the fusion of two religious personages (St. Nicholas and Christkindlein, the Christ child) to become a fixed image which is now the paramount symbol of the secular Christmas celebration.

In 1804, the New York Historical Society was founded with Nicholas as its patron saint, its members reviving the Dutch tradition of St. Nicholas as a gift-bringer. In 1809, Washington Irving published his satirical A History of New York, by one "Diedrich Knickerbocker," a work that poked fun at New York's Dutch past (St. Nicholas included). When Irving became a member of the Society the following year, the annual St. Nicholas Day dinner festivities included a woodcut of the traditional Nicholas figure (tall, with long robes) accompanied by a Dutch rhyme about "Sancte Claus" (in Dutch, "Sinterklaas"). Irving revised his History of New York in 1812, adding details about Nicholas' "riding over the tops of the trees, in that selfsame waggon wherein he brings his yearly presents to children." In 1821, a New York printer named William Gilley issued a poem about a "Santeclaus" who dressed all in fur and drove a sleigh pulled by one reindeer. Gilley's "Sante," however, was very short.

On Christmas Eve of 1822, another New Yorker, Clement Clarke Moore, wrote down and read to his children a series of verses; his poem was published a year later as "An Account of a Visit from St. Nicholas" (more commonly known today by its opening line, "'Twas the night before Christmas . . ."). Moore gave St. Nick eight reindeer (and named them all), and he devised the now-familiar entrance by chimney. Moore's Nicholas was still a small figure, however — the poem describes a "miniature sleigh" with a "little old driver."

Meanwhile, in parts of Europe such as Germany, Nicholas the gift-giver had been superseded by a representation of the infant Jesus (the Christ child, or "Christkindlein"). The Christkindlein accompanied Nicholas-like figures with other names (such as "Père Noël" in France), or he travelled with a dwarf-like helper (known in some places as "Pelznickel," or Nicholas with furs). Belsnickle (as Pelznickel was known in the German-American dialect of Pennsylvania) was represented by adults who dressed in furry disguises (including false whiskers), visited while children were still awake, and put on a scary performance. Gifts found by children the next morning were credited to Christkindlein, who had come while everyone was asleep. Over time, the non-visible Christkindlein (whose name mutated into "Kriss Kringle") was overshadowed by the visible Belsnickle, and both of them became confused with St. Nicholas and the emerging figure of Santa Claus.

The modern Santa Claus derived from these two images: St. Nicholas the elf-like gift bringer described by Moore, and a friendlier "Kriss Kringle" amalgam of the Christkindlein and Pelznickel figures. The man-sized version of Santa became the dominant image around 1841, when a Philadelphia merchant named J.W. Parkinson hired a man to dress in "Criscringle" clothing and climb the chimney outside his shop.

In 1863, a caricaturist for Harper's Weekly named Thomas Nast began developing his own image of Santa. Nast gave his figure a "flowing set of whiskers" and dressed him "all in fur, from his head to his foot." Nast's 1866 montage entitled "Santa Claus and His Works" established Santa as a maker of toys; an 1869 book of the same name collected new Nast drawings with a poem by George P. Webster that identified the North Pole as Santa's home. Although Nast never settled on one size for his Santa figures (they ranged from elf-like to man-sized), his 1881 "Merry Old Santa Claus" drawing is quite close to the modern-day image.

The Santa Claus figure, although not yet standardized, was ubiquitous by the late 19th century. Santa was portrayed as both large and small; he was usually round but sometimes of normal or slight build; and he dressed in furs (like Belsnickle) or cloth suits of red, blue, green, or purple. A Boston printer named Louis Prang introduced the English custom of Christmas cards to America, and in 1885 he issued a card featuring a red-suited Santa. The chubby Santa with a red suit (like an "overweight superhero") began to replace the fur-dressed Belsnickle image and the multicolored Santas.

At the beginning of the 1930s, the burgeoning Coca-Cola company was still looking for ways to increase sales of their product during winter, then a slow time of year for the soft drink market. They turned to a talented commercial illustrator named Haddon Sundblom, who created a series of memorable drawings that associated the figure of a larger than life, red-and-white garbed Santa Claus with Coca-Cola. Coke's annual advertisements — featuring Sundblom-drawn Santas holding bottles of Coca-Cola, drinking Coca-Cola, receiving Coca-Cola as gifts, and especially enjoying Coca-Cola — became a perennial Christmastime feature which helped spur Coca-Cola sales throughout the winter (and produced the bonus effect of appealing quite strongly to children, an important segment of the soft drink market). The success of this advertising campaign has helped fuel the legend that Coca-Cola actually invented the image of the modern Santa Claus, decking him out in a red-and-white suit to promote the company colors — or that at the very least, Coca-Cola chose to promote the red-and-white version of Santa Claus over a variety of competing Santa figures in order to establish it as the accepted image of Santa Claus.

This legend is not true. Although some versions of the Santa Claus figure still had him attired in various colors of outfits past the beginning of the 20th century, the jolly, ruddy, sack-carrying Santa with a red suit and flowing white whiskers had become the standard image of Santa Claus by the 1920s, several years before Sundlom drew his first Santa illustration for Coca-Cola. As The New York Times reported on 27 November 1927:

A standardized Santa Claus appears to New York children. Height, weight, stature are almost exactly standardized, as are the red garments, the hood and the white whiskers. The pack full of toys, ruddy cheeks and nose, bushy eyebrows and a jolly, paunchy effect are also inevitable parts of the requisite make-up.
It's simply mind-boggling that at the beginning the 21st century, historians are still egregiously perpetuating inaccurate information like the following:

So complete was the colonization of Christmas that Coke's Santa had elbowed aside all comers by the 1940s. He was the Santa of the 1947 movie Miracle on 34th Street just as he is the Santa of the recent film The Santa Clause. He is the Santa on Hallmark cards, he is the Santa riding the Norelco shaver each Christmas season, he is the department-store Santa, and he is even the Salvation Army Santa!1
As we just pointed out above, the modern Santa had "elbowed aside all comers" long before the 1940s, and well before Coca-Cola co-opted him as their wintertime advertising symbol. And we're at a loss to understand how anyone could have recognized the Santa of Miracle on 34th Street, a BLACK-AND-WHITE film, as the red-and-white Coca-Cola Santa.

All this isn't to say that Coca-Cola didn't have anything to do with cementing that image of Santa Claus in the public consciousness. The Santa image may have been standardized before Coca-Cola adopted it for their advertisements, but Coca-Cola had a great deal to do with establishing Santa Claus as a ubiquitous Christmas figure in America at a time when the holiday was still making the transition from a religious observance to a largely secular and highly commercial celebration. In an era before color television (or commercial television of any kind), color films, and the widespread use of color in newspapers, it was Coca-Cola's magazine advertisements, billboards, and point-of-sale store displays that exposed nearly everyone in America to the modern Santa Claus image. Coca-Cola certainly helped make Santa Claus one of the most popular men in America, but they didn't invent him.

[Tania]

For me Christmas will remain the day in which Jesus was borned and also will be the family day.In this day, at dinner you can see the whole members of the family. Before dinner we sing songs celebrating the Christmas and very discretly watching the tree and the gifts. Sometimes my mind goes off and i try to figure out what can be there. Also, its a great time to listen the non-musical voices of your family:giggling:

Only after dinner we are going for the midnight sermon where, without Happy birthday, will celebrate Jesus birth.

In 7th january we are celebrating Jesus baptism. Is the day when the priest is coming at home to make "saint" the house.:? I don't know the english expression :-[

Also, the russians are celebrating with one week later the Christmas or two, i can't remember exactly .

[SirDemonic]

I did. It's just urban myth time, I'm afraid. The facts are here.

myths? nope santa claus was 1st originally some kind green enviromentlist or sumat, coca cola changed it to advertise was hit lol

[Trumble]

myths? nope santa claus was 1st originally some kind green enviromentlist or sumat, coca cola changed it to advertise was hit lol

Read the article I posted.. or if that's too much just the bit I highlighted.

[SirDemonic]

Read the article I posted.. or if that's too much just the bit I highlighted.

Thats just one article, its like the da vinci code
Secrets need to be hidden for sake of religion etc... :)

[glo]

do christians mind when we say or write "xmas"? is it insulting/offensive?

I know of some Christians who frown upon the use of 'Xmas'. Some see it as an attempt to 'take Christ out of Christmas', and to secularise the festival.

This is what I found on the web (for the sake of time, I am copying and pasting it):

The term "Xmas" instead of "Christmas" is Greek in origin. The word for "Christ" in Greek is "Xristos." during the Sixteenth Century, Europeans began using the first initial of Christ's name...the "X" of "Xristos"...in place of the word "Christ" as a shorthand version of the word "Christmas." Although early Christians understood that the "X" was simply another form for the name of Jesus Christ, later Christians, who had no knowledge of the Greek language, mistook "Xmas" as a sign of disrespect. Eventually, however, "Xmas" came to be both an accepted and suitable alternative to the word "Christmas."

So Christians have no reason, really, to feel offended by 'xmas'. It is an abbreviation (invented by Christians!), no more, no less.

More info on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xmas

[Umar001]

I used to always ask Christians, "What will you be celebrating on the 25th Christmas or Xmas"


Argh I reallly disliked xmas.

[Keltoi]

Thats just one article, its like the da vinci code
Secrets need to be hidden for sake of religion etc... :)

What does Santa Clause have to do with celebrating Christ's birth? Why would the roots of Santa threaten the point of Christmas? I'm afraid that doesn't make sense.

[KAding]

did you know santa claus wore green clothing then coca cola changed it to red? big company can change the entire face of the earth.

I think this inaccurate. Santa Clause comes from the Dutch tradition of Sinterklaas, who is supposed to represent the Bishop of Myra, Saint Nicholas, in the 4th century.

[pictures removed]

So I find it unlikely his suit was ever green.

[Tania]

I think this inaccurate. Santa Clause comes from the Dutch tradition of Sinterklaas, who is supposed to represent the Bishop of Myra, Saint Nicholas, in the 4th century.

I always thought the angels are in charge to bring the tree and gifts in the Christmas night. Santa Clause i thought its an american tradition.

[Grace Seeker]

yeh but majority of christians celebrate christmas for presents, non go to church or anything, Its like theirs good and bad muslims out their but atleast bad muslims go to mosque every friday once a week, christians friends i got admit that they never go to church and celebrate christmas for presents. Is christmas worth celebrating? might aswell celebrate eid aswell, Good Christians who go to church deserve to celebrate and what more christians only go church when their born, getting married and when someone died.

Christmas is a good thing it's like eid

You know, in many ways I agree with your critique of Christmas. I think it has become infected with overblown commercialism. But that isn't Christmas' fault or even Christianity's fault, any more than some of the commercialism and gluttony that occurs around the Eid should be seen as reflective of Islam. Of course, Christian and Muslim adherents would make a better witness if they would attend to the spiritual aspects of their respective holy days rather than the cultural trappings that have become associated with them. I know that I for one could sure do with a little less Santa-mas and a little more Christ-mas. But I am not in control of what others do, I try to keep things a little more sane and muted in my own life, with my family, and at my church. But as for Coca-Cola and the rest of the business world, well, just remember they are running a business, not the Church. Their Santa-mas form of the holiday has about as much to do with real meaning of Christmas as a piece of baklavah has to do with the Eid -- but, of course, I do make baklavah every year just the same.

[Grace Seeker]

I always thought the angels are in charge to bring the tree and gifts in the Christmas night. Santa Clause i thought its an american tradition.

For me Christmas will remain the day in which Jesus was borned and also will be the family day.In this day, at dinner you can see the whole members of the family. Before dinner we sing songs celebrating the Christmas and very discretly watching the tree and the gifts. Sometimes my mind goes off and i try to figure out what can be there. Also, its a great time to listen the non-musical voices of your family:giggling:

Only after dinner we are going for the midnight sermon where, without Happy birthday, will celebrate Jesus birth.

In 7th january we are celebrating Jesus baptism. Is the day when the priest is coming at home to make "saint" the house.:? I don't know the english expression :-[

Also, the russians are celebrating with one week later the Christmas or two, i can't remember exactly .

There are so many different traditions and myths associated with all the different aspects of this mega-holiday. You will find different stories in different countries, but as people move around our globe they become interwined with each other and new ones are created. As someone will no doubt note (if not already done in another thread) we don't know exactly when Jesus was born, and over the centuries different days have been popularized as "the" day to celebrate it. Of course, the choice of day isn't important, but we humans do seem to like to be able to mark a particular day on our calendars. I don't suppose that one day is any better or worse than another.

One of the stories associated with the dating of Christmas is that the Roman Catholic Church simply chose to take over a pagan festival associated with the winter solistice. That wouldn't surprise me in the least. I don't think that makes Christmas a pagan holiday -- at least I don't ever think of anyone other than Christ when I celebrate Christmas. But some groups within Christendom didn't choose to celebrate Christ's birth as much as the arrival of the magi (wisemen) bearing gifts. And so they immitated that. Depending on which denomination you are part of that day is often celebrated on January 6 or January 7 and is called Epiphany.

Of course, despite the view made famous by artists depicting a "Nativity Scene" with shepherds and magi and animals all crowed into a stable --which curiously looks in some paintings very much like a modern barn-- the arrival of the magi was probably about 2 years after Jesus' birth. (Matthew reports that Mary and Joseph were living in a house, the probable origin of your house blessing, Tania.) But now in celebrating all the events of Jesus' life from his birth, to the coming of the magi, to his baptism, to his death and resurrection each year, our thinking tends to get compressed and some of the images associated with them tend to stack up on top of one another. That's more of an awareness issue than a faith issue though.)

Some people recognize special "saints" days. KAding has reported about one of the origins of the modern day Santa Claus myth. Nicholas, bishop of Myra (in modern day Turkey), was known for giving gifts to children. And there are some special stories that sprung up around him. He was later declared a Saint by the RCC (I don't know if the Orthodox recognize him or not), and his saint's day happens to be in December. In some countries gift giving to children is done on his Saint's day, not on Christmas.

And there seem to be new traditions all the time. Two of the USA's most popular traditions come from other countries. The tradition of sending Christmas cards is barely over 100 years old and comes from the "Boxing" day traditions of England, while in Mexico stories were created around a little desert plant, the poinsettia. With its import to the USA, it is seen by many as "the" Christmas flower. And now, for better or worse (I think worse), elements like Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer and Frosty-the-snowman and ubiquitous with the season as well.

All of these traditions have one thing in common. The traditions are actually the creation of men. They are not Christmas. They are at best the box, the paper that Christmas is wrapped in.

Now, in my house, the youngest children get as excited by the wrappings as the item in the box itself. And you know what? If they just want to play with the box, we let them. But we notice as they grow older, while they get no less joy from the pretty decorations, they also look forward to what is in the box. I suggest we deal with the manmade traditions associated with Christmas men much the same way.

Realize that there will be those who are immature in either character or faith and who will get caught up in all of the decorations. They will think that Christmas is about presents, and snowmen, and trees, and lights, and tinsel, and TV specials, and who know what else. They will celebrate it on many different days and in different ways. Let them.

And for those who have matured, point them to the heart of Christmas. Point them to the Christ child. Let them celebrate and marvel in this wonderful gift that God has given us of himself. Emmanuel -- God is with us.

[Tania]

But some groups within Christendom didn't choose to celebrate Christ's birth as much as the arrival of the magi (wisemen) bearing gifts. And so they immitated that. Depending on which denomination you are part of that day is often celebrated on January 6 or January 7 and is called Epiphany.
Nicholas, bishop of Myra (in modern day Turkey), was known for giving gifts to children. In some countries gift giving to children is done on his Saint's day, not on Christmas.

Ohhh...We celebrate Saint Nicholas in 5th december when we have to clean perfectly the shoes in order to get sweets. Its tradition to receive only sweets and a stick if you were not so good. I remember i couldn't sleep to well over night waiting to hear the Saint coming. I always left the shoes in the middle of the room to can catch it :giggling:
I just check up and this year the Epiphany was in 6th january and he has also the meaning of what you said (magi) but i always thought only at baptism :-[
Thank you to correct me.
The Epiphany is the manifestation of Jesus as Messiah of Israel, Son of God and Savior of the world. The great feast of Epiphany celebrates the adoration of Jesus by the wise men (magi) from the East, together with his baptism in the Jordan and the wedding feast at Cana in Galilee.212

[Grace Seeker]

Ohhh...We celebrate Saint Nicholas in 5th december when we have to clean perfectly the shoes in order to get sweets. Its tradition to receive only sweets and a stick if you were not so good. I remember i couldn't sleep to well over night waiting to hear the Saint coming. I always left the shoes in the middle of the room to can catch it :giggling:
I just check up and this year the Epiphany was in 6th january and he has also the meaning of what you said (magi) but i always thought only at baptism :-[
Thank you to correct me.
The Epiphany is the manifestation of Jesus as Messiah of Israel, Son of God and Savior of the world. The great feast of Epiphany celebrates the adoration of Jesus by the wise men (magi) from the East, together with his baptism in the Jordan and the wedding feast at Cana in Galilee.212

Tania, I don't know that you were wrong. There are so many different forms and ways of celebrating I don't think anyone can keep track of them all. And certainly, one way is not more right as if to say another way is wrong. Just different emphases is all.

[Muezzin]

Bah, humbug.

...I've just always wanted to say that. :p

[Muezzin]

Does anyone know where the tradition of the Christmas (or Xmas, whatever is less likely to get me into trouble) tree came from? That particular tradition strikes me as kind of um... paganistic, to tell the truth, but I could be completely wrong. Do tell me if I'm wrong and if I'm stepping on any toes. Or roots. Or presents.

[glo]

Does anyone know where the tradition of the Christmas (or Xmas, whatever is less likely to get me into trouble) tree came from? That particular tradition strikes me as kind of um... paganistic, to tell the truth, but I could be completely wrong. Do tell me if I'm wrong and if I'm stepping on any toes. Or roots. Or presents.

I thought it was too, Muezzin. Certainly some pagan religions had the custom of decorating the houses with greenery.
However, wikipedia tells me this:

The modern custom cannot be proved to be directly descended from pagan tradition. It can, however, be traced to 16th century Germany; Ingeborg Weber-Keller (Marburg professor of European ethnology) identified as the earliest reference a Bremen guild chronicle of 1570 which reports how a small fir was decorated with apples, nuts, dates, pretzels and paper flowers, and erected in the guild-house, for the benefit of the guild members' children, who collected the dainties on Christmas day. Another early reference is from Basel, where the tailor apprentices carried around town a tree decorated with apples and cheese in 1597. [...]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree

I also found this:

The fir tree has a long association with Christianity, it began in Germany almost 1,000 years ago when St Boniface, who converted the German people to Christianity, was said to have come across a group of pagans worshipping an oak tree. In anger, St Boniface is said to have cut down the oak tree and to his amazement a young fir tree sprung up from the roots of the oak tree. St Boniface took this as a sign of the Christian faith. But it was not until the 16th century that fir trees were brought indoors at Christmas time.

http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html

Now, be so good and hand me the tinsel, please ... :)
And mind the mince pies ...! :D

[Bint Abdusattar]

:sl:

and also santa claus? who is he?

I think santa clause is supposed to represent someone called St. Nicholas who was a very generous person who gave presents to children and now this act of charity is displayed through kids getting presents from 'santa clause' or 'father christmas'. But to me it just seems like a huge opportunity for commercialisation in this day and age - correct me if i am wrong please.

off the topic a wee bit here: rearrange the letters and what do you get?:eek:

:w:

[snakelegs]

i have never celebrated christmas as i'm not a christian and i don't like all the consumer madness.
but i think some here are hung up on the outer = what you see.
you see them at the cash register, but you do not see in to christians' hearts so you cannot claim to know what it means to them.
it's wrong to judge the unseen by the seen.

[snakelegs]

thanks trumble and glo - good work!

[north_malaysian]

Saint Nicholas is a Turk, right?:rollseyes

[SirDemonic]

i have never celebrated christmas as i'm not a christian and i don't like all the consumer madness.
but i think some here are hung up on the outer = what you see.
you see them at the cash register, but you do not see in to christians' hearts so you cannot claim to know what it means to them.
it's wrong to judge the unseen by the seen.

Thats it, the consumers ruin christmas seriously you dont need to swap presents to enjoy and celebrate christmas :) family reunion itself is perfection

[Kidman]

This was kinda weird to me.. and i wanted a Christians perspective on the meaning of the Christmas tree.

Then, maybe give a little insight to what it says in the Bible under Jeremiah 10:2-4

2 This is what the LORD says:
"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.

3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

Thanks,

Kidman

[Grace Seeker]

This was kinda weird to me.. and i wanted a Christians perspective on the meaning of the Christmas tree.

Then, maybe give a little insight to what it says in the Bible under Jeremiah 10:2-4

2 This is what the LORD says:
"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.

3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.

Thanks,

Kidman

Sure.

First, the passage in Jeremiah was written several hundren years before Jesus was born and doesn't have any more to do with Christmas trees than it has to do with a chairs. That passage has to do with not making idols, which a Christmas tree is not. (Of course, people can turn anything into an idol if they behave that way. I once saw a young teenage boy make an idol out of his 4X4 pick-up truck, but that is another story.)

Like with all things associated with Christmas there is more than one legend as to its beginning. Here is one that I like:

The fir tree has a long association with Christianity, it began in Germany almost 1,000 years ago when St Boniface, who converted the German people to Christianity, was said to have come across a group of pagans worshipping an oak tree. In anger, St Boniface is said to have cut down the oak tree and to his amazement a young fir tree sprung up from the roots of the oak tree. St Boniface took this as a sign of the Christian faith. But it was not until the 16th century that fir trees were brought indoors at Christmas time.

You can read about some other legends in these links:

The Christmas Tree

The Social History of Christmas Ornaments

Symbols, Customs, Traditions of Christmas

Christmas Around the World


But, legend aside, we have one in our house because it is pretty. Different seasons need different decorations, and an evergreen tree is something that seems appropriate this time of year, probably because I grew up with them. The lights add some gaity to the atmosphere in the house, especially if you need glasses and take them off to look at the tree with a blurr of lights on it. Over the years the children in the house have made special ornaments, some of them are handed down from generation to generation. There is one on our tree that my mother made for me when I was born. You can guess that it has special meaning, as do the one's our own children made when they were very young. Others were collected originally as a souvenir from some special vacation spot or a gift from a friend. Each one has its own story. So, our tree looks like a hodge-podge of all sorts of different stuff, and may not have the same striking effect that some of the designer trees have to them, but there is none that fits our home and family more. It is us, our history, our family, our lives and tokens of love for each other will be placed underneath it come Christmas day.

On a side note: a few years ago, we hosted a Muslim girl in our home as an exchange student for a year. You can guess that she wasn't too excited by Christmas as we prepared for it. But that year it came just a few weeks after Ramadan, and we had kept and celebrated that with her to the fullest extent possible. So, she joined in those aspects of our Christmas celebration that did not violate her faith. And one thing she liked was the tree. The following year she was back home with her family and I wanted to send her something for Christmas (yeah, I know that sounds silly giving a Muslim something for Chrsitmas, but she is one of my kids and I was giving something to all the others, so just consider it a second birthday present -- her birthday is also in December). So, I found a small artificial tree with lights on it, but some winter (not religious) themed ornaments and mailed it to her. She thought I was crazy, but she loved it. Her family all thought it was really neat too. So, they put it up in the family room, and (not associating it with Christmas, per se) they have left it up year round.

[Kidman]

Thanks, good explanation and nice story :)

Kidman

[Skillganon]

I never understood where christmas tree come about.

[SirDemonic]

I never understood where christmas tree come about.

It's called money making for the companys :)

[Woodrow]

In early Christianity christmas was not a major celebration and there was no set date for a priest to say the Annual "Christ's Mass". As Christianity spred into the British Isles, there was much competition with the Druid celebrations. In spite of the influence of Christianity.

I believe it was Pope Leo or Pope Gregory who came up with the Idea to Celebrate the "Unfixed" Christian celebrations to correspond with the Druid celebrations. However, many of the Druid customs were ingrained in the culture and stayed.

Along about the mid 1800's Christmas started to be celebrated (exploited might the better word) much like it is today. Today, many of these fairly recent "traditions" are now thought of as being of Christian origin.

In reality Christmas was not considered a religious event by Christians nor was it a "Sacred" day. the only Christian and Religious part was the Roman Catholic saying of the "Christ's Mass" and that was not confined to Dec. 25. Dec. 25 was simply a time to express "Good Will" to all people and more appropriatly called Yule Time.

The secularization of Christmas is pretty much a return to it's non-religious connontations.

[Grace Seeker]

It's called money making for the companys :)

hahahaha

I think you must just be a cynic by nature. That's OK. God loves us all, the big and the tall and the small.

It's just my opinion, but I like how Woodrow put it a little better:

The secularization of Christmas is pretty much a return to it's non-religious connontations.

Woodrow, you're right. The secularization of Chrsitmas has very little to do with the religious celebration. And personally, I could do with a little less of it. But, short of moving to a country without commercial enterprise, I'm not sure how to get rid of it.

[Grace Seeker]

One more wierd "Christmas" story. This one actually took place 30 years ago, and things have gotten worse since then.

It was the 3rd week of December and things were in what for then was full-swing decorations and shopping and all of the other ostentatious trappings of Christmas. I was listening to the local radio station in a town of about 70,000 people. They had a call in show and people were calling in to talk about everything under the sun. One person called in announcing that their church was going to have a live natvity display for those who wanted to rememeber "reason for the season" -- by that they meant the church's youth group was going to put on costumes and stand outside for a couple of hours as people walked by and they could enjoy this staged reenactment.

The next person who called in was livid with anger. I can still remember her words to this day:
"I can't believe your last caller. Christians are always trying to take over everything, and this is just another example of the church trying to horn in on Christmas too."

[SirDemonic]

Christmas are celebrated in this condition, but why?

Trees? why?
Santa Claus? why?
Swap presents? why?
Jesus birth? why?
Christmas lights? why?
Alcohol? why?

You see when you go around shops, houses, you see all those stuffs but why?

Go to a Supermarket like Tesco, asda, all you see is Alcohol getting sold out. :?

[Grace Seeker]

Christmas are celebrated in this condition, but why?

Trees? why?
Santa Claus? why?
Swap presents? why?
Jesus birth? why?
Christmas lights? why?
Alcohol? why?

You see when you go around shops, houses, you see all those stuffs but why?

Go to a Supermarket like Tesco, asda, all you see is Alcohol getting sold out. :?

Trees, Santa Claus, swapping presents, Christmas lights, alcohol, and everything else you might put on that list -- because people create rituals and traditions of their own to associate with any and everything. Some are good, some are bad, some just are.

Jesus' birth -- because that is what Christmas is, the celebration of his birth.
None of the others mean anything one way or the other. But you miss this one and you have missed Christmas.

[glo]

Christmas are celebrated in this condition, but why?

Trees? why?
Santa Claus? why?
Swap presents? why?
Jesus birth? why?
Christmas lights? why?
Alcohol? why?

You see when you go around shops, houses, you see all those stuffs but why?

Go to a Supermarket like Tesco, asda, all you see is Alcohol getting sold out. :?

Greetings SirDemonic

You asked very similar questions in your very first post, when you started this thread.

With all due respect, I wonder if you have read any of the 55 posts inbetween your first post and this one, that you have to ask the same questions again? :?

BTW, have you voted in my 'When somebody wishes me a Merry Christmas' poll in the General Chat section?

Peace :)

[SirDemonic]

Greetings SirDemonic

You asked very similar questions in your very first post, when you started this thread.

With all due respect, I wonder if you have read any of the 55 posts inbetween your first post and this one, that you have to ask the same questions again? :?

BTW, have you voted in my 'When somebody wishes me a Merry Christmas' poll in the General Chat section?

Peace :)

Yeah i voted :)

Same questions, The rest of the post say why celebrate christmas,
But what has christmas lights, alcohol etc... to do with christmas? :?

[glo]

Yeah i voted :)

Cool! Thank you. :)

But what has christmas lights, alcohol etc... to do with christmas? :?

With the birth of Jesus?
Nothing!

Peace :)

[Skillganon]

Woodrow, you're right. The secularization of Chrsitmas has very little to do with the religious celebration. And personally, I could do with a little less of it. But, short of moving to a country without commercial enterprise, I'm not sure how to get rid of it.

I personally do not see how christian can get rid it totally. Maybe a return to the root's, and explaining what christmas is about. The voice has to be strong, authoritive and firm. No giveway or being to relax in the position.

[Woodrow]

I think those of us who are not Christian would be more pleased if Christmas were celebrated as a religious holiday by more Christians. It would be more conducive for a mutual understanding as to why non-Christians avoid Christmas Celebrations.

This secular celebration is seen as being simply a use of religion to promote store sales. It is sad to see grown people judge each others faith by who can throw the best party or have the best decorations.

Christians who truly celebrate Christmas should have no problem with those of us who do not Celebrate it. We do not expect non-Muslims to Celebrate Eid nor fast during Ramadahm, and have no bad feelings towards them because they don't.

[Pygoscelis]

What's christmas?

Happy Winter Solstice. Burn the Yule whilst docorating the tree and kiss under some mistletoe.

Christmas celebration in December has never been all about Christ.

There were even periods in Christian history when celebrating "Christmas" was outlawed.

bah! I can't find it. But I have a book around here somewhere that goes over the history of Christmas celebration, starting with how the Christians initially co-opted the ancient celebration of the winter solstice.

Its gone back and forth over the ages, with the church organizations sometimes endorsing it and othertimes condemning it.

[north_malaysian]

Lots of santas and santarinas and elves here ... especially at the malls....

And lots of Christmas songs too... even only 7.4% of the population are Christians...

[Malaikah]

2. HAPPY HOLIDAYS! I suggest we all take this time to spend quality time with our families, families until they drive us insane and we beg to get back away into the outside world. :)

Is christmas really the only time some people spend with their families?

How sad.

[Pygoscelis]

Well yes it is. Its the only time I see my extended family, my cousins etc. Its the only time I saw my grandparents when they were still alive. Its the only time I see my sister now that she lives on the other side of the continent.

[Iwant2no2]

Why celebrate christmas?
Christians say that they celebrate birth of jesus,
But no one knows when jesus was born, it even states in the bible
and also santa claus? who is he? did you know santa claus wore green clothing then coca cola changed it to red? big company can change the entire face of the earth.

so why celebrate christmas?

The Christmas holiday is an adaptation of the "Pagan winter solstice rites". In other words "The Roman Catholic Church" took the Paga's Christmas holiday. Pagans in northwestern Europe, and many parts of the world conducted a yearly celebration which is remarkably similar to the Christian Christmas we know today' even gift giving. Christians even took Easter from the Pagans, and many more special rites they had. Few people realize that the origins of Christmas was Pagan long before anyone there had ever heard of Jesus Christ.

If this is true or not, I don't know, BUT it is written in the Bible that Jesus was born during the days of Herod the King. Historians have determined, on this and other evidence, that King Herod apparently died in the Spring of what we now call 4 B.C. So according to these writing in the Bible' Jesus was born sometime around 4 B.C. BUT no one has ever known the correct date or year.

St. Nicholas, {Santa} also goes back to Pagan times. St. Nicholas was a Pagan God, and Early depictions of Father Christmas in Britain often showed him wreathed in ivy and dressed in green. You are right Coca-Cola made red his signature colour, the Victorians would dress him in a range of many colours including red, blue and purple.

It's all good I guess!! :?

Take care.... :peace:

[Grace Seeker]

The Christmas holiday is an adaptation of the "Pagan winter solstice rites". In other words "The Roman Catholic Church" took the Paga's Christmas holiday. Pagans in northwestern Europe, and many parts of the world conducted a yearly celebration which is remarkably similar to the Christian Christmas we know today' even gift giving. Christians even took Easter from the Pagans, and many more special rites they had. Few people realize that the origins of Christmas was Pagan long before anyone there had ever heard of Jesus Christ.

If this is true or not, I don't know, BUT it is written in the Bible that Jesus was born during the days of Herod the King. Historians have determined, on this and other evidence, that King Herod apparently died in the Spring of what we now call 4 B.C. So according to these writing in the Bible' Jesus was born sometime around 4 B.C. BUT no one has ever known the correct date or year.

St. Nicholas, {Santa} also goes back to Pagan times. St. Nicholas was a Pagan God, and Early depictions of Father Christmas in Britain often showed him wreathed in ivy and dressed in green. You are right Coca-Cola made red his signature colour, the Victorians would dress him in a range of many colours including red, blue and purple.

It's all good I guess!! :?

Take care.... :peace:

I think there is a difference between co-opting an existing pagan celebration and turning it into a Christian celebration (which I will readily admit did happen), and saying that the origins of Christmas are pagan. That would be like saying that Muslims who participate the circumambulations of the Kaaba are involved in pagan worship because it was an object of veneration in pre-Islamic days. But as Umar ibn al-Khattab said, it is just a stone. And similarly December 25 is just a day on a calender. Many Christians choose to honor Christ's birth this day. Some Christians honor Christ's birth on January 6 or some other day. And a few Christians are not concerned about a celebration honoring Christ's birth at all, but only of his death and resurrection.

I think those of us who are not Christian would be more pleased if Christmas were celebrated as a religious holiday by more Christians. It would be more conducive for a mutual understanding as to why non-Christians avoid Christmas Celebrations.

This secular celebration is seen as being simply a use of religion to promote store sales. It is sad to see grown people judge each others faith by who can throw the best party or have the best decorations.

Christians who truly celebrate Christmas should have no problem with those of us who do not Celebrate it. We do not expect non-Muslims to Celebrate Eid nor fast during Ramadahm, and have no bad feelings towards them because they don't.

Woodrow, I have no problem with you nor anyone else not celebrating Christmas. As I've said before in this thread, I personally could do with a little less celebration -- at least of the type that is prevelant in the USA where I live.

I live in a small town of 5000. My guess is that 4999 of them will be celebrating Christmas this year. But I am at one of the larger churches in town and we have only 500 members. Even if you add all of the members of all of the churches together it would be only about 3000 people, or 60% of the town are serious enough about being Christian to belong to a church. Of them, only about 1/2 actually attend the church they belong to. And, unless I miss my guess, we will probably actually be down in attedance have have only about 150 of our 500 participating in worship on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day.

How should do one interpret this? I'm not quite sure. But one possible way is to suggest that perhaps 70% of what claims to be Christmas celebration really isn't about Christmas at all. Perhpas there is a new form of paganism that has infected (some might say, re-emerged in) this Holy Day turning it into just another holiday. Whatever, I just ask you all to remember that not everyone who is buying (and certainly not everyone who is selling) Christmas presents is planning on celebrating Christmas. Some will call it that, but they are really celebrating something else of their own creation.

For my part, I will remember that the Saudi students at the nearby college dorm who went out, got drunk and smashed my Halloween pumpkin (there's another mixed-up holiday for you) to celebrate the end of Ramadan this fall may claim to be Muslim, but were not practicing Islam. They too were simply celebrating something of their own creation.

Christmas celebration in December has never been all about Christ.

Never? That's a pretty big word. Given that I try to make my Christmas celebration (which does take place in December) about Christ (and I know others who do too), maybe it would be better if you just said that it hasn't always been just about Christ?

St. Nicholas, {Santa} also goes back to Pagan times. St. Nicholas was a Pagan God, and Early depictions of Father Christmas in Britain often showed him wreathed in ivy and dressed in green. You are right Coca-Cola made red his signature colour, the Victorians would dress him in a range of many colours including red, blue and purple.

There are many stories about Santa, and some of them do have pagan roots, but when you speak of St. Nicholas, be aware that you are talking about a real person who was certainly no pagan. A quick google search will bring you pages of websites telling his story, this one "Who Was St. Nicholas?" is as good a place to start as any if you seek to learn more about him.

[Maarya]

salam
last week i woz watching 'The Wright Stuff' in the morning with my mum and they were saying should they take the Christ out of Christmas because nowadays ppl look at christmas as the food, getting drunk, new clothes and snogging ppl who they're not meant to etc.
they were saying that if u look in London there;s light telling the story of a new film about a rat that has nothing got to do with Jesus or Christianity. Even though they are Christians themselves they say that christmas is more of a social event than a religious one.
wslm

[glo]

There is a new film just released, which tells the story of Jesus' birth. Apparently it follows the Biblical account very closely ... I haven't watched it myself yet ...

http://www.thenativitystory.com/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0762121/

Peace

[Grace Seeker]

I have children from around the world -- exchange students that we have hosted -- and sometimes we compare notes on international events, including holidays and traditions associated with them.

Saturday, I picked up our son from Chile at the airport. He has been in the USA for the last 4 months attending university, and he also lived with us several years while in secondary school. As we drove home he remarked about all of the Christmas lights, and people shopping in stores. So different from what he is accostumed to in Chile. There, people wait until 1 or 2 days before Chrsitmas to put up a tree. Then everyone all goes shopping at the same time to buy presents, but they just get a few for family. And the whole thing is a lot more low-keyed.

Another difference is they leave the tree up all the way through the first week of January. Claudio didn't know why, it was just tradition. But my guess is that it is related to recognition of Christmas as the whole season (not just a single day) from December 25 to January 6. In the USA, I know people who start packing up all of their Christmas decorations the afternoon of December 25. I think the differences between these two ways of celebrating shows that the trappings of Christmas that people in this thread have objected to are not truly an aspect of Christmas, but are an aspect of the culture in which Christmas is being celebrated. Our American culture is pagan, greedy, ostenatious, and overly commercialized. Unfortunately those things are sometimes still present even in our celebration of a religious holiday. But they are of the culture, not the holiday.

Even more unfortunate is that it seems that some other cultures in the world, instead of learning from our mistakes are seeking to emmulate them.imsad

[Pygoscelis]

Grace,

You speak of paganism as if it was evil. You speak of it "infecting" Christmas and turning the holiday into "just another holiday". I assure you that Pagans who celebrate the solstice celebrate it with just as much meaning and passion as Christians who celebrate Christmas. And they were doing so before the Christians co-opted the holiday and commercialized the whole thing.

You then refer to your culture as unfortunately being a bunch of negative things and include "pagan" in the list.

Is this just a misreading of what you wrote or are you hostile towards paganism?

[Grace Seeker]

Grace,

You speak of paganism as if it was evil. You speak of it "infecting" Christmas and turning the holiday into "just another holiday". I assure you that Pagans who celebrate the solstice celebrate it with just as much meaning and passion as Christians who celebrate Christmas.

Well, you make a good point. I had never looked at it from the standpoint of how a pagan might.

You then refer to your culture as unfortunately being a bunch of negative things and include "pagan" in the list.

Is this just a misreading of what you wrote or are you hostile towards paganism?

I hadn't considered that before, but I probably am.
Though now that you've drawn my attention to it, I'm feeling under conviction that perhaps I need to take a look at that aspect of my personality. Certainly I don't want to be hostile toward people -- pagan or otherwise.

And they were doing so before the Christians co-opted the holiday and commercialized the whole thing.

Christians co-opted the solstice holiday.

Merchants, of all different faiths and of no faith, commercialized it.

[Iwant2no2]

There are many stories about Santa, and some of them do have pagan roots, but when you speak of St. Nicholas, be aware that you are talking about a real person who was certainly no pagan. A quick google search will bring you pages of websites telling his story, this one "Who Was St. Nicholas?" is as good a place to start as any if you seek to learn more about him.

Yes I agree with you on there are many of stories about just who St. Nicholas was. Your story is just one of the many! BUT the truth is in many 1000s of history books, not just the Internet! Behind the name Santa Claus actually stands the figure of the pagan Sea God, who replaced Artemis as patron of Sailors and Harlots. Temples of Poseidon became shrines of St. Nicholias, who also inhearited Poseidon's popular title, the sailor. The original pagan god St. Nicholias gave rise to a Gnostic sect of Nicolaites who worshipped him with his cauldron of regeneration as a fertility figure. Hummmmmmmm!! Get the picture? Stranger things in history have happened... :giggling: ohhhhhh well!!

Ohhh and the words "adaptation" and "origins" do have different meanings. You might want to reread the top have of my first posting again.... Thanks!! :okay:

Take care.... :peace:

[Grace Seeker]

Is christmas really the only time some people spend with their families?

How sad.

True, but you could look at it two different ways.


Sad that for some it is the only opportunity that they get to spend together. But on the other hand, good that they do get at least this one time during a year when people are willing to put other things aside to be with their families.

[Muezzin]

Okay, seriously now - we all know Santa is a representation of jolly old Saint Nick.

BUT, POSSIBLY THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION EVER TO BE ASKED:

Where in the blue heck did flying reindeers come from?

[Grace Seeker]

Okay, seriously now - we all know Santa is a representation of jolly old Saint Nick.

BUT, POSSIBLY THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION EVER TO BE ASKED:

Where in the blue heck did flying reindeers come from?

Buryl Ives;D

[Woodrow]

Okay, seriously now - we all know Santa is a representation of jolly old Saint Nick.

BUT, POSSIBLY THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION EVER TO BE ASKED:

Where in the blue heck did flying reindeers come from?

I guess if you are going to have a Turkish Bishop, with Druid and Greek Mythological charecteristics, riding in a sleigh of Dutch design and being pulled by Finnish reindeer with German names (Except Rudolph which is Russian), you might just as well let the reindeer fly.

[Muezzin]

Yeah, but he could have had... a rocket or a firework or something. I mean, flying reindeer? Was one of the Clinton's card artists a pothead or insane or both?

[Keltoi]

Yeah, but he could have had... a rocket or a firework or something. I mean, flying reindeer? Was one of the Clinton's card artists a pothead or insane or both?

Get real....you people are talking like flying reindeer don't exist. I'm so tired of these conspiracy theories.

[Grace Seeker]

To all my friends celebrating Chanukah, Christmas, or Eid:

Best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress,
non-addictive, gender neutral, winter solstice holiday, practiced within the
most joyous traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, but with
respect for the religious persuasion of others who choose to practice their own religion as well as those who choose not to practice a religion at all;

plus,

A fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated
recognition of the generally accepted calendar year 2007, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of the other cultures whose contributions have helped make our society great, without regard to age, race, creed, color, religion, national origin, disability, political affiliation or sexual orientation.


I am doing my best to be non-offensive.;D

(Disclaimer: This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It implies
no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for him/herself or others and no responsibility for any unintended emotional stress these greetings may bring to those not caught up in the holiday spirit.)

[MTAFFI]

Get real....you people are talking like flying reindeer don't exist. I'm so tired of these conspiracy theories.

i know right, what is everyones problem? And you know what else, no one has even mentioned Santas elves!!! :heated: I guess we will just deny them too, just because they are little people doesnt mean they dont deserve the same recognition as everyone else:happy: :happy:

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE:D

[Fishman]

:sl:
Why do we like Santa!? He's awful:

• Enslaves elves
• Builds on the North Pole, a protected area
• Illegally flies his sleigh, sometimes through no-fly zones
• Makes copies of well-known brands in his factory
• Breaks and enters into people's houses
• Spies on children to see if they are naughty or good

He should be arrested!
:w:

[glo]

I guess if you are going to have a Turkish Bishop, with Druid and Greek Mythological charecteristics, riding in a sleigh of Dutch design and being pulled by Finnish reindeer with German names (Except Rudolph which is Russian), you might just as well let the reindeer fly.

Strangely, the reindeer do not appear in the German Christmas tradition at all - at least not to my knowledge. I wonder where the German names came from ...? :?

[Muezzin]

i know right, what is everyones problem? And you know what else, no one has even mentioned Santas elves!!! :heated: I guess we will just deny them too, just because they are little people doesnt mean they dont deserve the same recognition as everyone else:happy: :happy:

Santa exploits the vertically challenged! :p

[Grace Seeker]

For those who take this part of the discussion seriously, the invention of the flying reindeer and their names are both part of the now famous poem 'Twas The Night Before Christmas who the author was is disputed with tradition giving credit to Clement Clarke Moore and others believing that the original author was Henry Livingstone, Jr. If you believe that Livingstone was the author then we have an answer to where the reindeer's names came from: The names of the reindeer were those of the horses in Livingston's stable!

[Grace Seeker]

myths? nope santa claus was 1st originally some kind green enviromentlist or sumat, coca cola changed it to advertise was hit lol

Where did these images of Santa, some in red, some in other colors, come from that are found on these antique postcards that pre-Coca Cola in origin?

Antique postcards of Santa, including some in a red suit.


Where did the red fur-lined outfit come from? We don't really know!

But we do know that it was known in 1927, as The New York Times reported on 27 November 1927:

A standardized Santa Claus appears to New York children. Height, weight, stature are almost exactly standardized, as are the red garments, the hood and the white whiskers. The pack full of toys, ruddy cheeks and nose, bushy eyebrows and a jolly, paunchy effect are also inevitable parts of the requisite make-up.

Standardized in 1927, at least for the city of New York. So it was NOT created by the Coca-Cola company. But, they sure made this version spread fast!

[al-fateh]

What's wrong with celebrating the Prophet, JESUS CHRIST? Do Muslims not celebrate the Prophet's b-day?

I was asked this question... WHy if Muslims honor the Prophet, Jesus, and recognize him as they claim, then why not celebrate him like you do the Prophet Muhammad?

[Woodrow]

What's wrong with celebrating the Prophet, JESUS CHRIST? Do Muslims not celebrate the Prophet's b-day?

I was asked this question... WHy if Muslims honor the Prophet, Jesus, and recognize him as they claim, then why not celebrate him like you do the Prophet Muhammad?

Perhaps you are asking the wrong question. Maybe the question should be why do some Muslims celebrate the Prophet's(PBUH) birthday?

[al_faaris574]

:sl:

With regards to celebrating the Birthday of the Prophet Muhammed (saw) read the following:

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=249...g&txt=birthday

So basically, even celebrating the Birthday of the Prophet Muhammed is not permissable, so the argument of us celebrating the birthday of Isa (AS) bares no weight.

:w:

[glo]

I may be nitpicking here, and it would be interesting to hear the views of other Christians members here, but I have never really thought of Christmas as a celebration of Jesus' birthday.
After all, as we have established in other threads, nobody knows when exactly Jesus was born ... so how can we celebrate his birthday?

Instead it is a day set aside to think about the miraculous event of his conception and the amazing story of his birth!
Of course the meaning goes deeper for Christians, but why should Muslims not be at ease about remembering and honouring Isa (pbuh)? :?

Peace

[north_malaysian]

I dont want to make any statement that might offend most Muslims here, so I just observing..... :okay:

[Malaikah]

Instead it is a day set aside to think about the miraculous event of his conception and the amazing story of his birth!
Of course the meaning goes deeper for Christians, but why should Muslims not be at ease about remembering and honouring Isa (pbuh)? :?

But Christmas is not about Jesus the "prophet", it is about Jesus the "Son of God", Jesus the "Saviour"... I thought that would have been obvious enough. :?

We honour and remember Jesus in our own way, not by borrowing innovated holidays from other religions. Not to mention, why only Jesus? If we start remember Jesus only on a special day, we should also remember the other prophets because Jesus is not better than them, they are all the Messengers of God.

:)

[Keltoi]

On Christmas I don't think December 25th, the day Christ was born. I think of it like Glo mentioned in a previous post. As a celebration of Christ's birth and all that Christ means to Christians as a whole.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Your not supposed to celebrates birthdays sis PERIOD. So ur question holds no weight really.

[Periwinkle18]

25th december can't be Jusus Christ birthday,when he was going to be born Allah told hazrat maryam to eat fresh dates and fresh dates do not come in winter

[north_malaysian]

Allah told hazrat maryam to eat fresh dates

this fact is taken from the Qur'an?

[Malaikah]

:sl:

^Yes, surat Maryam. Um, at the moment, I expect part of the world is in winter and the other part is in summer and maybe some of them are in between. Er so I dont know if the december=winter thing holds. Regardless, the christians have already said that it isnt the real date.

[Ssss_muslimah]

Assalamoalaikum,
Christmas isnt just about celebrating Christ's birthday. The concept behind christmas on the 25th of Dec is that it was actually a pagan event and has been assimilated into the christian belief. Hence it is not actually christ's birthday. Secondly even if christ was born on this day, we dont celebrate his birthday since we are not even allowed to clebrate prophet Mohammad's birthday. Thirdly even if we were even to celebrate birthdays then the christian belief about 25th Dec is that ' Christ, the son of God ' (Astaghfirullah) was born on this day, or something of the sort on this day. Hence i do agree with the scholarly opinion that it is blasphemy for Muslims to join together with christians on this day.

[syilla]

On Christmas I don't think December 25th, the day Christ was born. I think of it like Glo mentioned in a previous post. As a celebration of Christ's birth and all that Christ means to Christians as a whole.

Is this your personally view? or is this...what most Christians think?

Do you have any sources telling us ...what is christmas is all about?

Do christians perform any kind of religious activity during the Christmas?

[glo]

Is this your personally view? or is this...what most Christians think?

Do you have any sources telling us ...what is christmas is all about?

Do christians perform any kind of religious activity during the Christmas?

Greetings, Syilla

You may find some answers to your questions here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...christmas.html
Although the thread is largely about why we celebrate Christmas, it also touches on how people celebrate it.

Hope this helps :)

peace

[Ssss_muslimah]

Assalamoalaikum,
I cant provide u any direct links but i have read Dr. Zakir Naik and Dr. Ameenah Phillips saying this. That is why i said i agree with this scholarly view.

[Grace Seeker]

As the origins of many of the things associated with Chrsitmas became a "hot topic" on another thread, I thought I would start this one for those who wanted to further explore them.

This link to Christian History e-magazine will connect you with a whole list of items, some associated with the religious aspect of the holiday, some expressions of the secular nature that has become a modern part of it, and some that are ancient but now forgotten practices. As the article says: "Who was the real Santa Claus? Where did Christmas trees come from? How have Christians traditionally observed Advent? What should we think about Mary? Find out more in this special section.

[Skillganon]

Thank's for the Link Grace Seeker.

[Periwinkle18]

this fact is taken from the Qur'an?

yes it is from the quran i think its in surah maryam i don't remember.I'll hav to ask my teacher she showed us a presentation in which it told us tht the pagans started this birthday thing.And all the people started celebrating their prophets birthday