/* */

PDA

View Full Version : is it time for muslims in the west to leave?



Dawud_uk
12-19-2006, 03:37 PM
assalaamu alaykum brothers and sisters,

i have been looking into the fataawah on hijra and when it is obligatory or just mustahaab but to me it looks to be obligatory at this moment.

what do others think?

i was looking at the following fatwah from islam q and a and is from sheikh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen, i cannot imagine a better explaination of my own situation but i also think the situation would be the same for many others here also who's countries are waging war against the muslims.

so should we all leave?

<<fatwah below>>

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=34687&ln=eng

Islam Questions & Answers

www.islam-qa.com

Question Reference Number:: 34687

Title: He has become Muslim but he does not want to leave his homeland

A man has become Muslim and he loves Islam and its people, and hates shirk and its people. But he has stayed in his country whose people hate Islam and wage war against it and fight the Muslims. It is too hard for him to leave his homeland so he has not migrated. What is the ruling on that?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

It is haraam for this man to stay in this land, and he must migrate. If he does not do that then let him await the punishment of Allaah, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, as for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): ‘In what (condition) were you?’ They reply: ‘We were weak and oppressed on the earth.’ They (angels) say: ‘Was not the earth of Allaah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?’ Such men will find their abode in Hell — what an evil destination!

Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way”
[al-Nisa’ 4:97-98]

If this man is able to migrate, then he must migrate to a Muslim country, then the love of the country from which he migrated will disappear from him heart and he will come to love the Muslim land. But if he cannot leave a land that is fighting Islam and its people just because it is his first homeland, this is haraam and it is not permissible for him to stay there.

From Majmoo’ Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him), 3/32. (www.islam-qa.com)


&#169;Copyright Islam Q&A 1997-2000
You are granted the right to use and display all the information on this site without any consent from the site maintainer(s). You may copy, distribute, print, link to any document, or translate to any language, as long as the information is quoted in its entirety, the source is mentioned, and without changing the contents.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Woodrow
12-19-2006, 04:28 PM
The main question I have is "Leave to Where?"

The next question is: "If a person is not a good practicing Muslim where they now live, what would make them any different where ever they live?"

We also have the example of the mass migrations of Muslims leaving the "Islamic" countries and moving to Western Countries. The reasons they are leaving need to be looked into.


We even have Bilal Phillips who is a strong role model for all of us. Yet He only chose to live in Saudi Arabia for 2 years and is now a US Citisen living in the Phillipines. (The Phillipines are an American Territory and the Residents are considered to be US Citisens with US Citisen rights except to vote in Federal Elections)

Where is a true Islamic Country? Is it a place or is it Making our own lives where ever we live, into our own Islamic Nation?
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-19-2006, 04:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
The main question I have is "Leave to Where?"

The next question is: "If a person is not a good practicing Muslim where they now live, what would make them any different where ever they live?"

We also have the example of the mass migrations of Muslims leaving the "Islamic" countries and moving to Western Countries. The reasons they are leaving need to be looked into.


We even have Bilal Phillips who is a strong role model for all of us. Yet He only chose to live in Saudi Arabia for 2 years and is now a US Citisen living in the Phillipines. (The Phillipines are an American Territory and the Residents are considered to be US Citisens with US Citisen rights except to vote in Federal Elections)

Where is a true Islamic Country? Is it a place or is it Making our own lives where ever we live, into our own Islamic Nation?
assalaamu alaykum,

i am talking straight forward islamic rulings that as far as i am aware are agreed upon, if the muslims are attacked then those who live in those nations doing the attacking have an obligation to leave those nations and those who do not without valid excuses are sinning.

there are many muslims lands, i admit some better or worse than others but the obligation is still clear to you is it not?

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

SirZubair
12-19-2006, 04:52 PM
Leave the west?

No way, we are just getting started.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Dawud_uk
12-19-2006, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SirZubair
Leave the west?

No way, we are just getting started.
assalaamu alaykum sir zubair,

can you explain what you mean?

are you talking about dawah?
because if you are i understand the obligation of hijra takes more importance here though that wouldnt lift our obligation of doing dawah whilst preparing to make hijra i believe.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Woodrow
12-19-2006, 05:03 PM
there are many muslims lands, i admit some better or worse than others but the obligation is still clear to you is it not?
The obligation is clear. But the prospect of finding a Muslim Nation that a revert would be able to migrate to is very dim. For many of us it will never be an option. It would be very difficult for a revert to practice Islam in the Islamic Nations. Language barriers alone would make it difficult to gain citizenship. Without citizenship legal employment is often not possible, without employment, it would be difficult to to meet the Islamic requirements of being able to provide for a family.

Even without my heath problems, I think it would be difficult to find an Islamic Nation that would grant me citizenship. You don't see many if any Muslim Nations screaming for Muslims from other Nations to migrate to them.


For myself this is a moot point, as health concerns will not even allow me to leave much further then my Bedroom and then for only short periods of time.
Reply

New_Muslim
12-19-2006, 06:08 PM
If we stay we can get more to come to Islam.
Reply

- Qatada -
12-19-2006, 06:14 PM
:salamext:


Off topic posts have been removed. We don't need anti islamic posts here, and anyone can easily take anything out of context.


If anyone wants to truely understand these issues, they can refer to these links:


Terrorism:
http://www.load-islam.com/classified...assified_id=13


Misconceptions - Commonly Misquoted Verses and Narrations
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions


other than that, carry on insha'Allaah :)
Reply

Woodrow
12-19-2006, 06:18 PM
The reality of the world is that the Countries that are considered the most Islamic are Arabic nations. Over 85% of the Worlds Muslims are not Arabic. If all One Billion plus Non-Arabic Muslim were to migrate to a tiny Arabic Nation, we would push out the Arabic heritage of Islam and change the total culture of the nation.

For most of us the only option is to stay where we are and do our best to live as Muslims and make Dua that our example will instill beneficial changes in the nation we live in.
Reply

Skillganon
12-19-2006, 06:24 PM
I think that this Link will be helpfull: Living in Non-Muslim Lands
Reply

waji
12-19-2006, 06:40 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
We even have Bilal Phillips who is a strong role model for all of us. Yet He only chose to live in Saudi Arabia for 2 years and is now a US Citisen living in the Phillipines.
Bilal Philips use to live in UAE few years back and he was doing a program from ch33 of Dubai but due to the effects of 9/11 he was arrested for unknown reason and his program was also stopped and now i don't know either he left Saudi Arabia or ....................

:w:
Reply

Woodrow
12-19-2006, 07:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wkas
:sl:



Bilal Philips use to live in UAE few years back and he was doing a program from ch33 of Dubai but due to the effects of 9/11 he was arrested for unknown reason and his program was also stopped and now i don't know either he left Saudi Arabia or ....................

:w:
I just did a quick online check to see where he currently lives. Apparantly he is no longer in the Phillipines. It almost seems he does not have any permament residence and travels according to need. Lately he has been spending the Summers teaching in the US and Canada, but also spends time in the Southern Latin American Countries.

I still think of him as a good role model. To me it is as if he makes the space where he is, into an individual Islamic Nation.
Reply

UmmSqueakster
12-19-2006, 08:39 PM
I wouldn't have become muslim if it weren't for some pleasent american muslims I met that peaked my interest in Islam. Alhamduillah they're here, and inshaAllah while I am here, I can open others' hearts to Islam.

It is my husband and my intention to move to a muslim country in the future (either egypt, his home country, or the UAE), but it's difficult to just pick up and move, especially in modern times with government regulations, visas and whatnot.

edited to add - I don't believe it's fard to make hijra, husband would just like to raise our kids in a place with more muslims.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-19-2006, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Janaan
I wouldn't have become muslim if it weren't for some pleasent american muslims I met that peaked my interest in Islam. Alhamduillah they're here, and inshaAllah while I am here, I can open others' hearts to Islam.

It is my husband and my intention to move to a muslim country in the future (either egypt, his home country, or the UAE), but it's difficult to just pick up and move, especially in modern times with government regulations, visas and whatnot.
assalaamu alaykum,

being a revert i am in the same situation, but insha'allah with good preparation i will be ready to make hijra though i know it will be a matter of years not months until i am ready.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Far7an
12-19-2006, 09:15 PM
Whenever I discuss this topic I always encounter two extremes:

1. It is haraam to live in Dar al-Kufr and one must leave and move to a Muslim country.

2. There is no Dar al-Islam to make hijrah to.

An interesting discussion took place here.
Reply

*noor
12-19-2006, 09:24 PM
leave and go where exactly?:?
Reply

Muezzin
12-19-2006, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by *noor
leave and go where exactly?:?
'Back to Africa' - depending on who you ask :p
Reply

Snowflake
12-19-2006, 09:26 PM
Just one little question from me..

I'm referring to the verse in the Quran in which Allah swt says not to take the disbelievers as protectors.

Does that mean we should not live in lands that are governed by non muslims?
Reply

Fishman
12-19-2006, 09:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
Does that mean we should not live in lands that are governed by non muslims?
:sl:
Depends if you consider our leaders as protectors or not. I certainly wouldn't!
:w:
Reply

netprince
12-19-2006, 09:31 PM
Do Hijra!!! Where to... The land of the Al-Sauds?
Reply

Fishman
12-19-2006, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by netprince
Do Hijra!!! Where to... The land of the Al-Sauds?
:sl:
Saudi Arabia is America's best friend in the Middle East, after Israel.
:w:
Reply

Inshallah
12-20-2006, 10:10 AM
Canada is the best country for muslims followed by dubai. Living in america is waging your akirah, yes indeed people need to redirect themselves to a better place for muslims.
Reply

Snowflake
12-20-2006, 10:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Depends if you consider our leaders as protectors or not. I certainly wouldn't!
:w:
They are though aren't they. In the way that they set the laws that protect us as citizens. And if war broke out then they'd def be protecting their land, which we live in. I think that makes them our protectors. Right? :?
Reply

Ismahaan
12-20-2006, 10:45 AM
:sl:
As far as I'm aware, it is not permitted for a muslim to live among non muslims. You may only travel to the land of the kufaar to give dawah for e.g.

I believe that living in a muslim country is better than living in a non-muslim country. In a muslim country you feel more peaceful and at ease, in my opinion. When I went to visit a particular muslim country, my iman increased because I was surrounded by good, religious neighbours, who lived Islam. There are so many advantages to living in a muslim country. Everytime I would hear the adhan, I felt fear in my heart for the first time. I was actually scared about death and akhira. I came back to London with a lot of iman, but it slowly began to decrease imsad

However, there's no place like London, where you have the right to practise your religion, and where you are treated like a human being. In most, if not all muslim countries, foreigners are treated like animals.
Reply

Snowflake
12-20-2006, 10:55 AM
I agree with you 101% Ismahaan sis. I think all muslims should leave the West. We are sacrificing our deen for convenience. :(
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-20-2006, 12:07 PM
assalaamu alaykum,

the problem is this, most of us would go to advice to our imams and alims in our home cities correct?

well this is like going to a muslim rock star and saying 'is music allowed?'

this is because the scholars and imams are here also, they have also made the same compromises and are perhaps in a worst position as they know the daleel which we dont and still ignore it.

as to those who asked where?
this is an individual consideration, i am considering somalia and nwfp pakistan but i doubt they would let me in pakistan given my rather publically held views regarding the apostate dog, bush's b**ch, the murteed turd busharraf.

but somalia are allowing anyone to come there, anyone at all. you just go and live there and yes it isnt entirely stable still but the warlords are now gone and i think it is the best thing for those muslims who dont have the qualifications or contacts to get into other nations.

as to woodrows comment about all going to an arab country, well i dont think anyone is saying that. as you mention yourself, most muslims are not arab and most muslims lands are not arab either. islam doesnt not equal arabism as they have their own jahiliyyah they have to get over also just like the rest of us.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Snowflake
12-20-2006, 12:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum,

the problem is this, most of us would go to advice to our imams and alims in our home cities correct?

well this is like going to a muslim rock star and saying 'is music allowed?'

this is because the scholars and imams are here also, they have also made the same compromises and are perhaps in a worst position as they know the daleel which we dont and still ignore it.
lol good example! If anything imaams in the west are better off than the average citizen. They'd be the last to implement Hijrah laws. :-\
Reply

Muezzin
12-20-2006, 02:35 PM
No offence to any of my Somali Muslim Brethren, but there is no way in heck that I want to move to war-torn Somalia. I'm of Pakistani descent, but I wouldn't want to live in Pakistan either. Islamically it's nothing special because the Government is corrupt, and the standard of living is much better in the UK, where I was born and live. In the absence of a true Islamic state that is not ravaged by war or corrupt, there's not really much incentive for Muslims in the West to emigrate.

Dubai could change my mind, but I'm unclear as to how Islamic (as opposed to secular) it is.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-20-2006, 03:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
No offence to any of my Somali Muslim Brethren, but there is no way in heck that I want to move to war-torn Somalia. I'm of Pakistani descent, but I wouldn't want to live in Pakistan either. Islamically it's nothing special because the Government is corrupt, and the standard of living is much better in the UK, where I was born and live. In the absence of a true Islamic state that is not ravaged by war or corrupt, there's not really much incentive for Muslims in the West to emigrate.

Dubai could change my mind, but I'm unclear as to how Islamic (as opposed to secular) it is.
Do you want Drugs, Alcohol or a Russian prostitute?
No your personally!

Sorry but I should explain I know a brother who recently came back from Dubai and said that is the first thing every taxi driver asks you. Not saying such problems are not everywhere else but this brother seems to be saying it is much more prevalent there and that they’ve sold themselves totally down the tourist route and will do anything for Tourist money.

So what you are saying is even if it is obligatory for us to prepare to leave and leave when we are ready you are staying put because these lands are poor and sometimes strife ridden?

Wouldn’t the ummah have lost a lot of its greatest if they had said, I am content to live comfortably where I am and will not make hijra when the command of Allah is clear in this instance?

How can such lands be changed for the better when the better educated and now more wealthy section of the ummah stay in Darul kufr paying their taxes to the Kuffar, strengthening their jammat rather than strengthening the jammat of the muslims?

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Muezzin
12-20-2006, 03:36 PM
Fair enough, but where would Muslims emigrate, realistically? Not the social or economic or academic elite, but the regular Average Joe everyday Muslims just minding their own business and making ends meet - where would they go?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not forcing anyone to stay or move or anything - people can emigrate or stay put as they please as far as I'm concerned. There's just a lack of viable alternatives, in my view.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-20-2006, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Fair enough, but where would Muslims emigrate, realistically? Not the social or economic or academic elite, but the regular Average Joe everyday Muslims just minding their own business and making ends meet - where would they go?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not forcing anyone to stay or move or anything - people can emigrate or stay put as they please as far as I'm concerned. There's just a lack of viable alternatives, in my view.
Assalaamu Alaykum,

It is for each of us to look at our options and see where we could realistically go; many people have family associations, which would make hijra to certain countries easier. Others like myself don’t.

Me personally I am seriously looking at both NWFP and Somalia and strongly leaning towards Somalia at the moment. That doesn’t mean I am going to pack my bags and go Somalia this weekend.

It does however mean like any act of ibadah I am learning the rules of hijra, the do’s and don’ts and starting preparations so that I don’t become a burden on anywhere I move to and have something to offer them and their particular needs so I strengthen them and their country not weaken it.

Each of us has to make these calculations ourselves and prepare carefully and many people will perhaps not be able to go for genuine reasons like they health difficulties which would die or be seriously at risk if they left but if we have made all serious preparation the fear of death or loss of standard of living should not in themselves stop us from going just because we are more comfortable here in the West.

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Fishman
12-20-2006, 05:24 PM
:sl:
Isn't Somalia an impoverished war zone at the moment, due to the civil war with the Islamic courts and the war with Ethiopia looming?
:w:
Reply

Inshallah
12-20-2006, 05:48 PM
Muslim countries are far more corrupt than the west internally i'm not sure what you guys are talking about.

Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world and you find the least muslims here. Biggest and strongest community of north america. From 1999-2001 was voted best city in the world to live in.

I agree that living in america you are sacrificing your akirah but living in a corrupt muslim country would only do you the same.
Reply

UmmSqueakster
12-20-2006, 05:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Isn't Somalia an impoverished war zone at the moment, due to the civil war with the Islamic courts and the war with Ethiopia looming?
:w:
:sl:

One should definately visit a place before they decide to make hijra there. Somalia is quite scary :uuh:
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-21-2006, 12:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Inshallah
Muslim countries are far more corrupt than the west internally i'm not sure what you guys are talking about.

Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world and you find the least muslims here. Biggest and strongest community of north america. From 1999-2001 was voted best city in the world to live in.

I agree that living in america you are sacrificing your akirah but living in a corrupt muslim country would only do you the same.
assalaamu alaykum,

the whole point is it is not halal to stop in a non-muslim land when that people are at war with muslims so canada is off the menu as they have sent troops to afghanistan to impose their way of life upon the muslims.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

snakelegs
12-21-2006, 05:27 AM
from the link posted by Far7an:
"The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “Whoever believes in Allah and His Messenger, establishes prayer, and fasts Ramadân, Allah will admit him into Paradise whether he goes forth to strive in the way of Allah or remains in the land of his birth..” If staying in the land of the unbelievers had been forbidden, the Prophet (peace be upon him) would not have given them a choice between staying or leaving."

"Ahmad also related a hadîth which is evidence for living in non-Muslim countries. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The countries are Allah’s countries and the people are Allah’s servants, so wherever you find good (living atmosphere), you may live.”"
Reply

Inshallah
12-21-2006, 07:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum,

the whole point is it is not halal to stop in a non-muslim land when that people are at war with muslims so canada is off the menu as they have sent troops to afghanistan to impose their way of life upon the muslims.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
That is so wrong, yes canada have sent troops first time in many years they are fighting in combat but 99% of the time canadians our on humanatarian missions. No doubht our prime minister is a jerk but he doesn't speak for the rest of canada.

Don't forget your from the uk, shall i remind you what british soldiers did in abu grahib?????

What does saudi arabia or any other muslim country do to support muslims and our religion in times of need such as the war in iraq and afghanistan????? NOTHING BUT SIT ON THEIR LAZY BACKS!!!!!!!

Enough said, canada is the best whether you like it or not. Most peacefull country in the world.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-21-2006, 08:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Inshallah
That is so wrong, yes canada have sent troops first time in many years they are fighting in combat but 99% of the time canadians our on humanatarian missions. No doubht our prime minister is a jerk but he doesn't speak for the rest of canada.

Don't forget your from the uk, shall i remind you what british soldiers did in abu grahib?????

What does saudi arabia or any other muslim country do to support muslims and our religion in times of need such as the war in iraq and afghanistan????? NOTHING BUT SIT ON THEIR LAZY BACKS!!!!!!!

Enough said, canada is the best whether you like it or not. Most peacefull country in the world.
assalaamu alaykum,

the ruling doesnt change, and i know the behaviour of british soldiers but i am not going to get into a nationalistic slanging match of my nation is better than your's, that is pure asabiyyah and so forbidden to us.

yes canada is peaceful, yes canadians are relatively nice people, yes canada allows limited shariah in personal contracts and disputes, yes canada has the official happiest citizens in the world...

but yes canada has also been at the forfront of the war on islam in afghanistan and therefore the ruling still applies.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-21-2006, 08:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
from the link posted by Far7an:
"The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “Whoever believes in Allah and His Messenger, establishes prayer, and fasts Ramadân, Allah will admit him into Paradise whether he goes forth to strive in the way of Allah or remains in the land of his birth..” If staying in the land of the unbelievers had been forbidden, the Prophet (peace be upon him) would not have given them a choice between staying or leaving."

"Ahmad also related a hadîth which is evidence for living in non-Muslim countries. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The countries are Allah’s countries and the people are Allah’s servants, so wherever you find good (living atmosphere), you may live.”"
hi snakelegs,

there is a context to each ahaddith (saying of the prophet Muhammad saws) and the scholars look at this and determine the truth of each matter and the context will also tell us how each ruling is meant to be applied.

needless to say there are many sayings that say you should make hijra, so the scholars have lookd at the context and said the hijra that is obligatory is the hijra that is from the lands at war with muslims, the hijra that is not obligatory is where their is no war and you can stop and promote islam where you are.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Malaikah
12-21-2006, 09:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
the problem is this, most of us would go to advice to our imams and alims in our home cities correct?

well this is like going to a muslim rock star and saying 'is music allowed?'

this is because the scholars and imams are here also, they have also made the same compromises and are perhaps in a worst position as they know the daleel which we dont and still ignore it.
:sl:

I disagree. The imams would be in a position where they are teaching Islam and giving dawah. That makes it perfectly permissible for them to stay there doesn't it?
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-21-2006, 11:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

I disagree. The imams would be in a position where they are teaching Islam and giving dawah. That makes it perfectly permissible for them to stay there doesn't it?
as far as i am aware it does not, the ruling on leaving the non-muslim lands at war with islam is general but perhaps someone here with greater knowledge could answer?
Reply

Snowflake
12-21-2006, 11:43 AM
Giving dawah is all well and good but should it take priority over bringing existing muslims to the right path? There is more corruption/bidah in muslims back home than muslims in the west. There is a dire need for knowledgable imans where fitnah is more prevalent.
Reply

Malaikah
12-21-2006, 11:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
as far as i am aware it does not, the ruling on leaving the non-muslim lands at war with islam is general but perhaps someone here with greater knowledge could answer?
:sl:

Oh ok I didnt take in to consideration the war thing, my comment was about just generally living in a non-muslim land. I do not know if that makes a difference.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
Giving dawah is all well and good but should it take priority over bringing existing muslims to the right path? There is more corruption/bidah in muslims back home than muslims in the west. There is a dire need for knowledgable imans where fitnah is more prevalent.
But doesnt mean they shouldnt abandon the Muslims living in the west does it?:?
Reply

Snowflake
12-21-2006, 11:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:
But doesnt mean they shouldnt abandon the Muslims living in the west does it?:?
all muslims should go not just imaams
Reply

- Qatada -
12-21-2006, 01:11 PM
:salamext:


It's really important we all read this insha'Allah:

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...use-allah.html
Reply

FollowingAlhuda
12-21-2006, 01:18 PM
Assalamo Aleikom,

This isn't the case!
We can live here on three conditions.

1. If whe give continious Da'wa
2. We have to study a Ilm in the west, that isn't available in the Muslim Countries.
3. We have to get an operations, that can only be done in the western countries!


Wa Allahu a3lem, i'm not sure!
Wassalamo Aleikom
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-21-2006, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by FollowingAlhuda
Assalamo Aleikom,

This isn't the case!
We can live here on three conditions.

1. If whe give continious Da'wa
2. We have to study a Ilm in the west, that isn't available in the Muslim Countries.
3. We have to get an operations, that can only be done in the western countries!

Wassalamo Aleikom
assalaamu alaykum,

but there is another exception, if war starts then the covenant is broken and we have to leave at that point if we are able to.

the western nations are at war with the muslims therefore the points you make no longer apply. please check it with scholars, dont just rely on my say-so.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

english_rose
12-21-2006, 01:34 PM
I am a revert I dont think it is time for muslims to leave the west.Allah is the creator of every country.We have to make a stand for Allah where ever we are in this world.We have to share our knowledge of Islam with others it is our duty.Insha'allah we are never given more than we can handle.alhamdullilah
Reply

snakelegs
12-22-2006, 07:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
hi snakelegs,

there is a context to each ahaddith (saying of the prophet Muhammad saws) and the scholars look at this and determine the truth of each matter and the context will also tell us how each ruling is meant to be applied.

needless to say there are many sayings that say you should make hijra, so the scholars have lookd at the context and said the hijra that is obligatory is the hijra that is from the lands at war with muslims, the hijra that is not obligatory is where their is no war and you can stop and promote islam where you are.

Abu Abdullah
yes, i see your point. staying in countries that are waging war against muslims is a separate issue in itself.
but in the case of canada, i believe they only sent a token force, and that probably under pressure from u.s. i think the u.s. probably blackmailed some countries, using various threats to force them to send a token force in order to create the farce of a coalition.
the fact is most muslim countries are still in poverty. why would they welcome foreign immigrants, muslim or not, if they had no skills to offer and don't even speak the language? where can your children get a better education? it seems to me, these are all things to take into consideration.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-22-2006, 08:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
yes, i see your point. staying in countries that are waging war against muslims is a separate issue in itself.
but in the case of canada, i believe they only sent a token force, and that probably under pressure from u.s. i think the u.s. probably blackmailed some countries, using various threats to force them to send a token force in order to create the farce of a coalition.
the fact is most muslim countries are still in poverty. why would they welcome foreign immigrants, muslim or not, if they had no skills to offer and don't even speak the language? where can your children get a better education? it seems to me, these are all things to take into consideration.
i wish it were so but it is not, the canadians led the recent operations against the taliban forces with british support. they are i believe the third largest force in afghanistan after the US and UK.
Reply

Woodrow
12-22-2006, 02:16 PM
There is another option. Why Don't more Muslims move to the west? The total Muslim population is more than the combined populations of Europe and North America. If just 1/3 of the world's Muslims migrated to the US, they would make Islam the dominating force in the US by being nearly 60% of the US population.

Current Population of US: 298,348,524

Current Estmated world Population of Muslims:900,000,000 -1,902,095,000

Sources for the above figures:

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information/population/


http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_B...nts.html#Islam


The problem is not enough Muslims are aware that the true Jihad in todays world is not one to be fought with weapons. It is one to be fought by us having the courage to stay in Non-Islamic countries and instead of trying to conquer non-Islams, to do our best to invite them into the fold of the Ummah by living the life of a true Muslim. To give up and move to an Islamic country is the easy way out and the wrong way to fight this Jihad. If we are to be true Mujahideens in this Jihad we must learn to use the weapons of love and truth, not be defeated by our own fears and hates.

To give up and move to an Islamic Nation, is a surrender. It is a fast way to be defeated in this Jihad. That would Isolate all Muslims into several small overcrowded countries, deplete their resources and divide the Ummah into nation against nation, for the basic necessities of life. In just a few centuries we would become a forgotten people set off in our own little private worlds with no chance of ever spreading the word of Allah(swt) to non-Muslims.

Also from within these countries we can help our brothers in the Ummah defeat those who are waging war on our brothers. Only, we can not do it with weapons. This is a Jihad that can only be won through peace, Love and tolerance. This can only happen if we live peacefully among the very people that see us as enemies.

We need to sacrifice our emotional desire to go live in a land where Islam is easy. We need to have the strength to stay and prosper in countries that see us as enemies and return hate with love. We have no need to battle with non-Muslims. We need to love them and learn how to encourage them to accept the truth of Islam.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-22-2006, 03:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
There is another option. Why Don't more Muslims move to the west? The total Muslim population is more than the combined populations of Europe and North America. If just 1/3 of the world's Muslims migrated to the US, they would make Islam the dominating force in the US by being nearly 60% of the US population.

Current Population of US: 298,348,524

Current Estmated world Population of Muslims:900,000,000 -1,902,095,000

Sources for the above figures:

http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information/population/


http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/results.htm

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_B...nts.html#Islam


The problem is not enough Muslims are aware that the true Jihad in todays world is not one to be fought with weapons. It is one to be fought by us having the courage to stay in Non-Islamic countries and instead of trying to conquer non-Islams, to do our best to invite them into the fold of the Ummah by living the life of a true Muslim. To give up and move to an Islamic country is the easy way out and the wrong way to fight this Jihad. If we are to be true Mujahideens in this Jihad we must learn to use the weapons of love and truth, not be defeated by our own fears and hates.

To give up and move to an Islamic Nation, is a surrender. It is a fast way to be defeated in this Jihad. That would Isolate all Muslims into several small overcrowded countries, deplete their resources and divide the Ummah into nation against nation, for the basic necessities of life. In just a few centuries we would become a forgotten people set off in our own little private worlds with no chance of ever spreading the word of Allah(swt) to non-Muslims.

Also from within these countries we can help our brothers in the Ummah defeat those who are waging war on our brothers. Only, we can not do it with weapons. This is a Jihad that can only be won through peace, Love and tolerance. This can only happen if we live peacefully among the very people that see us as enemies.

We need to sacrifice our emotional desire to go live in a land where Islam is easy. We need to have the strength to stay and prosper in countries that see us as enemies and return hate with love. We have no need to battle with non-Muslims. We need to love them and learn how to encourage them to accept the truth of Islam.
assalaamu alaykum,

brother, please go read the seerah because the islam you are calling towards is not what i understand to be example of the prophet Muhammad saws or the sahabah who strives and fought and migrated for the sake of Allah swt.

once they were triumphant then people came to islam in droves, you would seem to make sense but it goes against everything the salaf and best of this ummah have called for or called towards.

you would bring a new meaning to jihad, reclassify the word mujahid and throw out the understandings of the best of the muslims in favour of modern reclassifications, subhanallah i dont think you realise how dangerous is your post and your words.

i love you for the sake of Allah, but i think you are misguided on this and will pray to Allah swt that you are able to be rectified, please if you love me as a brother and think the same about me and my own views then make du'a for me also.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Woodrow
12-22-2006, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum,

brother, please go read the seerah because the islam you are calling towards is not what i understand to be example of the prophet Muhammad saws or the sahabah who strives and fought and migrated for the sake of Allah swt.

once they were triumphant then people came to islam in droves, you would seem to make sense but it goes against everything the salaf and best of this ummah have called for or called towards.

you would bring a new meaning to jihad, reclassify the word mujahid and throw out the understandings of the best of the muslims in favour of modern reclassifications, subhanallah i dont think you realise how dangerous is your post and your words.

i love you for the sake of Allah, but i think you are misguided on this and will pray to Allah swt that you are able to be rectified, please if you love me as a brother and think the same about me and my own views then make du'a for me also.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
I could very well be mistaken in my views.

I am still very much of a beginner in Islam. It was because of the love I see in Islam that I reverted and that is my own belief as to what Islam is. What I see as the greatest strength of Islam is the love and the desire to share that love.

Ameen to your Du'as and I will also make Dua for you.
Reply

Asyur an-Nagi
12-22-2006, 03:39 PM
why leave? the best muslim are the most contributed to others (i.e where you reside). we can still be a muslim an being the part of the society, brother. as long as there is no detrimental effect toward our iman, just stay.

the sea fishes do not need to be salty just because they were surrounded by salt for the most of their life.

it is just my opinion,brother. an opinion from someone who embraced islam recently.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-22-2006, 03:45 PM
assalaamu alaykum,

all please see the following link,

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...use-allah.html

as supplied by brother Fi-Sabilillah, subhanallah the classical scholars have and the Quran and sunnah is quite clear on this matter.

for those of us who are new to Islam it is not for us to look at Islam and its ruling and try to bend them to our own understanding and whims but to look at Islam with the full realisation that it is the Haqq and as such we have to accept its rulings.

even if we do not follow something, we should not say it is wrong or try to change those rulings as this could lead to ruling by other than Allah has revealled.

No we should accept that the Quran is true, the sunnah is true and both are correct and then from there we know the salaf as best in their understanding after the understanding of Muhammad saws, then the scholars of ahlus sunnah.

now knowing all that, it is for us to use our reason to accept our criterion and whatever therefore comes from that is true and should be accepted and if we do not then we take our imaan perhaps too lightly, yes people are fallable and sinful but do not say you know better than Allah and his Rasool saws or we risk leaving the fold of islam.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Woodrow
12-22-2006, 04:51 PM
:sl: Brother Dawud,

I read the link and I can understand were you are coming from. One of the difficulties is many of us who live here in the Western World are reverts and migration is not always an option. Also as reverts I believe we can do more for Islam by staying here and doing our best to help Islam grow.


I know this is a very small part of the link you gave and it is not my intent to just take one part out of context. However, much of this section does seem to support thre stand of reverts in America, I do not know if it would be the same Issue in the UK.

As Islam is the religion of dignity and authority, it was impossible to think of any Muslim submitting himself to the disbelievers; indeed it is forbidden for a Muslim to go to live amongst them and acknowledge their authority over him, because his presence amongst them would make him feel weak and isolated, and, then he would become docile and apologetic before them. He would first be called upon to approve of them, and then to follow them. But Muslims should be filled with morale and confidence, they should be leaders, not followers. They should hold the reins of power; no power should be above them but that of Allah. Therefore Muslims were forbidden to remain in countries where Islam is of no account, except when they are able to freely practice their religion and to observe it without any impediment, and without any fear that their presence there could damage them in any way. If this is not the case, then they must migrate to a better place where the authority of Islam is of some account. If they refuse to do so, while they are able, then they would have no further claims on this religion. About this Allah has spoken in Surat an-Nisa:


Verily! As for those whom the Angels have taken (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory to them), they (angels) asked them, "In what condition were you?". They replied, "We were weak and oppressed on earth". The Angels asked, "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to migrate therein?" Such men will find their abode in Hell - what an evil destination! Except the weak ones among men, women and children who were unable to devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way [35]





The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “I am not responsible for any Muslim who stays among polytheists. They asked: 'Why, Apostle of Allah? He said: ‘Their fires should not be visible to one another.’, and he (peace be upon him) said, “Who joins the polytheists and lives with them then he is like them” and he (peace be upon him) said: “Migration will not end until repentance ends, and repentance will not end until the sun rises in the west.”[36]



Al-Hassan Ibn Salih said: "whoever remains in the land of the enemy, will be treated like the disbelievers, so long as he was able to join the Muslims but did not do it. If one of the disbelievers accepts Islam, but still remains with the disbelievers, even though he was able to go to join the Muslims, he is to be treated like them; neither his blood nor his property will be protected.
In the US it is possible for a Muslim to hold reins of Power at least within his own local community. Sadly few Muslims here except for some reverts are either unaware or do not realise they can control their own communities. The US does not have any person or Government agency they are subjected to. The Government of the US is supposed to abide by the choices of the people and not the other way around. Yes, there are Federal, State, Local and individual laws. The laws of the individual are considered to be the most important and the remainder of the laws are to protect the rights of the individual. It is true many Americans are lax and do not pursue their own rights. But, we all have the right to follow Allah(swt) above any laws issued by the land. Muslims can be leaders here if they take the initiative. Perhaps not on a federal level but definetly on the local level and very probable on a State level. The Federal Government is forbidden to infringe upon the rights of the states.

Now in the next part:

except when they are able to freely practice their religion and to observe it without any impediment, and without any fear that their presence there could damage them in any way
There is no impediment to Islam here in the US. The only restriction is it can not be imposed upon others through the use of force. Religious freedom is one of the basic reasons the US fought for independance from Great Britain.

I can only say that my words were said on the basis that there is no reason a Muslim living in the US can not live as a Muslim. there is no reason we can not be leaders in the community and we do have the right to publicaly express opposistion to the US involvement in unjust wars.

We do have at least 2 States that have based their state laws on the religions of the people within the State. The laws in Utah are based on Mormomism and the Laws in Louisiana are based on Catholochism. There is no reason why a State could not base its laws on Sharia if Muslims stand up and make their presence known. If not a State then at least a County. In fact we do have many counties that have laws that differ from the State and federal Law. Just one small example. Many Texas counties forbid the sale of Alcohol. Throughout the South you will find many pockets were the laws are based on the dominate local example.

Another example are the Amish and Mennonites. They have their own communities that are totaly seperate from State and Federal rule over most of their lives. The Amish for example will not send their children to Public Schools, pay Taxes, observe holidays, pledge allegiance to the flag or serve in the Military. there is nothing stopping us as Muslims from doing the same. Some of the Amish communities are larger, in area than the smaller Islamic nations.
Reply

Fishman
12-22-2006, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum,

but there is another exception, if war starts then the covenant is broken and we have to leave at that point if we are able to.

the western nations are at war with the muslims therefore the points you make no longer apply. please check it with scholars, dont just rely on my say-so.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
:sl:
But the West is certainly not at war with Islam! The pagans of Arabia were at war with Islam. They tortured, murdered and raped anybody who was Muslim. They wanted to exterminate Islam. America just wants a bigger piece of the Middle East. If the West was at war with Islam we would all be in prison or worse, in death camps. I think that some of us should certainly stay here, to help teach Islam and show it to the people. If there is no Islam, then people will just think of it as a strange foreign thing, something dangerous, something that should be stopped. Then the West would really be at war with Islam.

The prophet (pbuh) stayed in Makkah for a long time. He could have left anytime he wanted. But he didn't, he stayed to help preach and convert people to the truth, and only left when things got really bad. If we say we follow the sunnah, why don't we follow this! Let the religious people stay, let them homeschool their children, let them preach and help the masses, and then, if gas chambers and firing squads arrive, then they should leave. And if they die, they are martyrs, because they died preaching Islam, and also died trying to follow another sunnah: the sunnah of making Hijra.
:w:
Reply

FollowingAlhuda
12-22-2006, 08:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
assalaamu alaykum,

but there is another exception, if war starts then the covenant is broken and we have to leave at that point if we are able to.

the western nations are at war with the muslims therefore the points you make no longer apply. please check it with scholars, dont just rely on my say-so.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

I will Insha Allah!

But i'm now buzy with study of Aqeedah according to the understanding of the Salaf. I wil Insha Allah learn more about Muslims in the west later. I had to put at my reaction ''Allahu A3lem'' nut i didn't.

I will cnage it Insha Allah. Thank you akhi!
Wassalam
Reply

FollowingAlhuda
12-22-2006, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
But the West is certainly not at war with Islam! The pagans of Arabia were at war with Islam. They tortured, murdered and raped anybody who was Muslim. They wanted to exterminate Islam. America just wants a bigger piece of the Middle East. If the West was at war with Islam we would all be in prison or worse, in death camps. I think that some of us should certainly stay here, to help teach Islam and show it to the people. If there is no Islam, then people will just think of it as a strange foreign thing, something dangerous, something that should be stopped. Then the West would really be at war with Islam.

The prophet (pbuh) stayed in Makkah for a long time. He could have left anytime he wanted. But he didn't, he stayed to help preach and convert people to the truth, and only left when things got really bad. If we say we follow the sunnah, why don't we follow this! Let the religious people stay, let them homeschool their children, let them preach and help the masses, and then, if gas chambers and firing squads arrive, then they should leave. And if they die, they are martyrs, because they died preaching Islam, and also died trying to follow another sunnah: the sunnah of making Hijra.
:w:

Does someone had an article about this subject? Something in the Fiqh or maybe a Fatwa?

Djazaaka Allah Ghair!



Wassalam
Reply

snakelegs
12-22-2006, 11:56 PM
i agree, the west is not at war with islam per se, as fishman pointed out - but some western countries are involved in killing muslims. so we are all paying for this through our taxes, even those of us who are 100% opposed to what the west is doing.
does this distinction make any difference according to fiqh?
Reply

Woodrow
12-23-2006, 01:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i agree, the west is not at war with islam per se, as fishman pointed out - but some western countries are involved in killing muslims. so we are all paying for this through our taxes, even those of us who are 100% opposed to what the west is doing.
does this distinction make any difference according to fiqh?
Here in the US we can to a certain extent control what our tax money is used for. The money used for war and/or defence comes out of federal taxes. Those of us with an income below the federal tax limit do not even pay in any federal income tax. My self, I only pay local taxes that go for schools, road maintainence and other local expenses. Some religious groups take an oath of poverty and deliberatly keep their income below the tax level, the Amish are the most noted for that. They do very little transactions among themselves for money, dealing mostly by trading, and keep their income outside of the community to very low income.

Ironicaly a number of the nations that the US is using weapons against have paid in a sizable portion of taxes to pay for those weapons through import taxes. Keep in mind the majority of the worlds food supply comes from America, Australia, Argentina and Canada. Nearly all of the wheat, flour and other grain products used in the mid-east, are produced in the Americas. Chances are if you buy a loaf of bread, a pasta product or something made with flour any place in the world, outside of the US some part of that product was purchased from America and an import tax was paid which bought a bullet.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-23-2006, 06:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
But the West is certainly not at war with Islam! The pagans of Arabia were at war with Islam. They tortured, murdered and raped anybody who was Muslim. They wanted to exterminate Islam. America just wants a bigger piece of the Middle East. If the West was at war with Islam we would all be in prison or worse, in death camps. I think that some of us should certainly stay here, to help teach Islam and show it to the people. If there is no Islam, then people will just think of it as a strange foreign thing, something dangerous, something that should be stopped. Then the West would really be at war with Islam.

The prophet (pbuh) stayed in Makkah for a long time. He could have left anytime he wanted. But he didn't, he stayed to help preach and convert people to the truth, and only left when things got really bad. If we say we follow the sunnah, why don't we follow this! Let the religious people stay, let them homeschool their children, let them preach and help the masses, and then, if gas chambers and firing squads arrive, then they should leave. And if they die, they are martyrs, because they died preaching Islam, and also died trying to follow another sunnah: the sunnah of making Hijra.
:w:
assalaamu alaykum fishman,

unfortunetely i must totally disagree with you, do bush and blair not say they are fighting an evil idiology which seeks to setup a kalifate over the whole muslim world?

do they not fight that? do they not oppress and imprison muslims?
remember jihad is fard until every muslim prisoner unjustly taken is handed back to the muslims.

so if they attack islam and attack the muslims who are trying to establish shariah then they are at war with islam and if we are able we must leave.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-23-2006, 06:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i agree, the west is not at war with islam per se, as fishman pointed out - but some western countries are involved in killing muslims. so we are all paying for this through our taxes, even those of us who are 100% opposed to what the west is doing.
does this distinction make any difference according to fiqh?
Allahu Alim but the rulings of ibn taymiyyah was that those who sided with and didnt distance themselves from their leaders and still lived under them were also valid targets, such as the muslims who lived under the tartars.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-06-2010, 04:51 AM
  2. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-20-2007, 05:20 PM
  3. Replies: 105
    Last Post: 05-28-2007, 08:22 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!