format_quote Originally Posted by
Pygoscelis
The unites states is one of the most religious countries in the world.
i'll make this loud and clear.
This thread is
not to do with whether you're religious or not, it's to do with the
psychology of believing in the end of times. You could believe that you're in the end of time but still behave like a crook
if you also happen to think that you won't be held accountable just coz u attribute yoruself to a certain dogma.
I'm just using the example of athiests coz you'd relate to it better. That's all.
I'll put it in simpler terms, it's to do with psychology of the effects of end of times with regards to Muslims, compared to people who don't have that motive (like athiests for example).
Take a look at more secular countries such as Canada, Japan, Denmark, Australia, and the numbers are much lower.
You're missing the point, and take a look at a country like Saudi, and the numbers are
much lower.
And the US is a good example coz it illustrates that there is no effect in believing ur in the end of time if your understanding is messed up.
Prison stats also show that the incarcerated are more likely to be religious than not, and it is out of proportion to the general population. And these figures are taken upon incarceration, not after, so no, it isn't a matter of conversion in prison.
Shesh you n ur going off topic. I'll remind you of what i said:
"For
Muslims who believe in the end of time, it serves as a double incentive to behave properly... and this is reflected in stats" Where was i trying to say this applies to other groups just coz they claim to believe in it?
And note that these countries are not authoritarian or dictatorial, such as Saudi Arabia.
Saudi is an autocracy very true, and i'm not tryign to defend it, but when it coems to applying the few laws that
are from Islam (e.g. theft and alchohol), the positive effects on society are
clearly visible.
It's a consensus that alchohol is a demerit good, the US tried banning it without success, when the revelation for alchohol ban was revealed in Madinah, streets where flowign with dumped alchohol immediately after it's illegality was announced.
Comes down to the fact that people who don't have a proper understanding of judgemetn day will do things only in their worldy interest, where as people who do (like Muslims) will do things in their personal interest with respect to the hereafter.
What's your problem with that?
From the stats above, it's less liekly that a Muslim would be a psychopath compared to someoen from other sorta ideology innit
Not necesarily so. You are mistaking correlation with causation. The underlying variables here are the regime and its methods, the arrest rate, and the rate of prosecution.
Ok, prove to me that saudi has an issue of binge drinkers and drunkies running around the streets like other countries would. Or that theft is rampant (even though its inhabitatns are much less well off compared to the US for example).
And the UN report doesn't raise up any of the doubts you put on the stats.
That is fine. But then don't try to invent a false dichotomy between Muslims and Atheists. Reread your posts and you may realize that is what you have tried to do.
What false dichotomy? I'm stating the simple and obvious.
Athiests don't have incentive to be good when no one is watching.
Muslims do.
If i was talking to people of other faith who don't have proper understanding of day of judgement i'd replace 'athiest' with their way of life.
It does when you try to use it to claim that athiests are less moral due to atheism. If you mean non-muslims then you should say non-muslims, which would then bring a whole host of other objections into play.
Nope, saying non-Muslim means i have to prove that every other sorta ideology besides Islam has an incorrect understanding of accountability etc. Which isn't necessarily true. So I'll stick to using people like you as an example, since that's more accurate. And illustrates my point very well.
Only in your creative interpretation of what I wrote. And this is where you took one small observatoin and twisted it to derail thread.
I actually said no such thing. I only said they have a lot to live for. THey have purpose in their lives. You somehow twisted that into your little tirade.
So why where you upset when i gave a very plausible interpretation and said:
the phrase "you'd better make teh most of it" can be looked at dfiferently by different athiests, an athiest who doesn't believe in accountability may very well interpret it to mean that it's a good idea to steal, cheat, make as much money (thru whatever means), as long as you enjoy life. (and who cares about the environment).
Whereas with Muslims, that sort of interpretation is 100% out of the equation. Because it means you're destined for trouble in the hereafter :uuh:
tc all the best
ps: infact, a perfectly rational athiest would steal, cheat and all that if he knwos he can escape, since that's indeed 'making the most of your life' if there was no accountability.
And I don't actually believe atheists to have a greater incentive to be good, nor are they inherently lacking morality like you seem to believe. They just have one less control over their minds. This can lead to good or bad things.
And i'm saying it can only lead to more bad things from them. since Muslims are encouraged to every good (from learning to raising kids to business etc etc). Athiests are encouraged to nothing, so if they do good. It's something that Islam already would approve of. and if it's bad, that's a bypass of their obstinance with respect to believing in God.
Atheists don't kill in the name of a God.
They kill for personal interest. i.e. Islam doesn't tolerate destroying a country to steal their riches, an athiestic mentality could.
They don't engage in mass suicide in hope of catching a comet (heaven's gate) or drink poisoned coolaid (Jim Jones) en mass.
That goes for all people who believe in getting judged.
They don't strap bombs to their chests or fly planes into buildings because God told them to (muslim terrorists).
Where did they say 'god told them to', and you need to prove that it was Muslims who did fly planes into buildings (even national TV in australia presented evidence that it was highly unlikely to be Muslims, regardless of people affiliating themselves to it).
And name me a single Muslim country at peace throughout histroy that would blow em selves up for no reasons. Ever occurred to you that the ones who do it got kicked out of theri homes and property ? :?
They don't kill their own children to send them to heaven (Yates I think that one was).
Neither do Muslims, again you're missing the point, how many times do i have to remind you that i'm only talking about people hwo beleive in day of judgement properly. And as far as i'm concerned, it's Muslims that i'm talking about.
Your memory taht bad? :exhausted
They don't deny their children life saving blood transfusions (Jehovas Witnesses).
nor do people who believe properly in accountability. e.g. Muslims.
Don't you get sick of going in circles?
They don't pretend everything is OK and shed their guilt because God has forgiven them for their sins.
nor do people who believe properly in accountability. e.g. Muslims.
Don't you get sick of going in circles?
They are far less likely to engage in bigotry against somebody because of sexual orientation.
And Athiests (and people who don't believe in accountability) are far more likely to become AIDs sources.
They are far less likely to assign gender roles or engage in sexism.
Sexism? Prove it, the media using women as sex objects is sexism enough. Good example of what happens when you don't beleive in hereafter.
No one respects women more than Muslims. No single person besides Muslims lowers their gaze when they speak to a women out of respect and are obliged to use
kind words and be kind to them.
The Prophet said: 'I command you to be kind to women.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to their wives. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
Athiests and others are more likely to treat them in any manner as long as it suits thier personal interest (e.g. use them as sex objects).
They don't place their imagined interest of "God" above those of mankind.
i dont get ur point. And your 'imagined' shows the arrogance you're filled with.
They don't interfere in science classrooms pushing a creation myth as science.
1. Prove its a myth. Stop using emotionally loaded terms without proving their validity.
2. Islam doesn't oppose evolution when it comes to non-Human species.
They don't stand in the way of potentially life saving stem cell research.
Nor do Muslims,
http://www.islamonline.net/english/V...article6.shtml
They don't stand in the way of condom use, thus increasing the spread of STDs.
Who said Muslims ban contraception :rollseyes
They don't tie "witches" to stakes and burn them to death.
Muslims don't.
They don't kill converts who turn away from their world view.
Muslims don't force conversion on anyone and remind people of their obligations if they choose to become Muslim. Part of the deal is that they are agreeing to the punishment of death if they chose to leave Islam.
And even in the event they do, they are debated
till they have no reply.
They don't engage in inquisitions for their God.
Nor Do Muslims.
I could go on like that for hours. But I think the point is made. Religion inspires and rationalizes as much harm as good.
I've just about nocked down every one of your points... and finally:
WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE TOPIC :rollseyes
Obedience is not the same thing as Good. What a structured religious regiment does is encourage obedience to whatever the God is perceived as desiring.
Yes, it may keep the odd psychopath in line. But this is also why it has been so effectively used and abused so many times in history to effect so many attrocities.
Finally the point is finally kinda hitting home.
And please, next time you say "
But this is also why it has been so effectively used and abused so many times in history to effect so many attrocities.", prove it.
Give me examples where Muslims wreaked havoc in conditions of social equillibrium.
It is kind of cute when you try to be offensive and self-important at the same time.
Seriously, let me ask you, what sort of answer are you looking for then?!
You asked a question, you got an answer, i tried to be nice using 'take care all the best' at the end of my posts. And all of a sudden it's like i'm a thunder bolt electricuting u.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Pygoscelis
In saying that this is "likely" you are again dismissing all non-religious sources of morality. And again I have to wonder, do you have no moral compass aside from your religious doctrine? If you lost faith would you really become a robber?
Please pygo... stop going off topic. Read your first post.
You didn't ask "are there other sources of morality"
You said "what are the psych effects of believing in end of time" And i told you it simply means that for those with proper understanding (e.g. Muslims) it means they have double incentive to follow their moral code.
Unlike people who don't beleive in judgemetn day, e.g. Athiests.
Nothing to do with whether there's other moral sources or not (ofcourse they are), in the case of atheists, whether they'll be followed is subject to their evaluation against personal interest. As the law of Opportunity Cost and 'Cost-Benefit' principle dictates.