PDA

View Full Version : The Psychology of "End Times"



Pygoscelis
12-21-2006, 06:44 AM
I read an article in a magazine today while waiting for an appointment. It claimed that some high number (forget the number) of people from the USA believe that we are living in the "end times".

It explains that by "end times" it means that Jesus will come back and the world will come to an end within their lifetime.

If the article's numbers are accurate I have to wonder about the psychological effects of that belief. Do these people have any reason to care for the long term health of the planet or the societies upon it?
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Malaikah
12-21-2006, 07:44 AM
Interesting question.

The belief is similar in Islam, however I have never seen this effect on anyone. If anything the realization would encourage them to do good deeds... though I do not see much of that. Also the time periods outlined indicate that it is still a while before Jesus (as) returns.

Also, there is a hadith where the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said that if a person was planting a tree and the Day of Judgment was about to occur very soon (i.e. so soon that planting the tree would be pointless- I don't remember the actual time period he mentioned), the person should still plant that tree and will be rewarded for planting it.

In short- proximity of the end of the world is no excuse to stuff up the enviroment.
Reply

glo
12-21-2006, 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If the article's numbers are accurate I have to wonder about the psychological effects of that belief. Do these people have any reason to care for the long term health of the planet or the societies upon it?
I have wondered very similar things myself, and I think you make a good point.

I remember having an email exchange with an American evangelical Christian some years back, and she certainly was entire unperturbed about the environment and using up earths' resources ... because she believed so strongly that God would provide for her, and that if we ran out of resources, it probably meant the end was nigh!

I do believe this attitude is changing, and many American evangelicals are turning to face environmental and social issues ...
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action...=s&NewsID=5378
(You may find sojourners interesting)

I think the issues is less with believing that the end times will come. All Christians (and Muslims for that matter) believe that Jesus will return and judge us all. It's a fundamental part of our faith.

The issue lies with those people who trawl through prophecies and claim to know that the end times are close at hand! When people assume to have such knowledge, they start to make mistakes.

Jesus said:
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch." (Matthew 13: 32-34)
We are not supposed to give up our appointed jobs (i.e. our stewardship over his creation, being responsible for each other's well-being etc) until the time of his return, not until we think he might be returning!

Peace
Reply

lolwatever
12-21-2006, 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Interesting question.

The belief is similar in Islam, however I have never seen this effect on anyone. If anything the realization would encourage them to do good deeds... though I do not see much of that. Also the time periods outlined indicate that it is still a while before Jesus (as) returns.

Also, there is a hadith where the Prophet Muhammad pbuh said that if a person was planting a tree and the Day of Judgment was about to occur very soon (i.e. so soon that planting the tree would be pointless- I don't remember the actual time period he mentioned), the person should still plant that tree and will be rewarded for planting it.

In short- proximity of the end of the world is no excuse to stuff up the enviroment.
Well said, also from another perspective... end of times simply means judgement day is getting closer, which obviously means we should be taking care of earth and the environment if we wanna do well when the end of time actually comes :uuh:

tc all the best.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Keltoi
12-21-2006, 06:23 PM
Ministers and preachers have been warning of the "endtimes" for quite some time. Historically this has been the catalyst for a religious revival. In U.S. history it was called The Great Awakening. I remember one such minister(not personally), in the early 1800's, who set an exact date for the end of the world. Of course this didn't come to pass, and the congregation soon melted away. I think most people of faith have accepted that only God knows when that day will arrive.
Reply

Skillganon
12-21-2006, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by glo

We are not supposed to give up our appointed jobs (i.e. our stewardship over his creation, being responsible for each other's well-being etc) until the time of his return, not until we think he might be returning!

Peace
Good point. Also to note, I forgot the passage, but Jesus said the hour is unknown.
Reply

glo
12-21-2006, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by Skillganon
Good point. Also to note, I forgot the passage, but Jesus said the hour is unknown.
Greetings, Skillganon

You find Jesus' quote in Mark 13:32 and Matthew 24:36. I posted the latter in my above post.

peace
Reply

netprince
12-21-2006, 07:52 PM
Muslim Psychology regarding the "end times" should be:

If the end time comes and you are planting a seed, plant the seed.
Reply

snakelegs
12-21-2006, 10:36 PM
this is a good topic, because it is something i have often wondered about.
in the u.s. we once had a secretary of the interior (james watt, i think), who was a christian. he was quoted as saying something to the effect that we don't need to worry about the forests because jesus was coming back soon.
i read over and over on this board muslims saying things that indicate that this world is of little importantance, it is something to be "gotten through" and the Important Thing is the next world. the impression i get is that a lot of people are more focused on the next world than this one.
this could be a mis-interpretation on their part or a misunderstanding on mine.
and yes, i too, wonder about the psychological ramifications of such a belief system (which also seems to me very fear-oriented).
maybe it strikes me this way because i do not believe in an afterlife. i do not think this belief is wrong, but it seems wrong to me to have disdain for this world - it is not just a diving board in to the pool of eternity - it is god's creation, after all.
this is the first time i have read that hadees quoted Malaikah - needless to say, i like this a lot.
Reply

Malaikah
12-22-2006, 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i read over and over on this board muslims saying things that indicate that this world is of little importantance, it is something to be "gotten through" and the Important Thing is the next world. the impression i get is that a lot of people are more focused on the next world than this one.
Well everything has to be given its due proportions. We only live in this world for an average of, lets say, 80 years or so, the day of judgement it self is 50 thousand years long and paradise/hell-fire is for eternity... so obviously the next life is more important and what it was we have to focus on.

However, part of focusing on the next life included taking care of this life. It is our duty as Muslims to look after ourselves and our families and stop injustice, forbid evil, take care of the environment and animals, earn a living etc. What is not allowed though is living in this life as the next life doesn't exist, and equally forbidden is living for the next life and ignoring the needs of this life.

So what is needed is moderation, we should not give either this worldly life or the next life more than what it deserves.
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-22-2006, 03:31 AM
This dovetails nicely with the frequent theist claim against atheists that atheists have "nothing to live for" because they believe in no afterlife. But the reverse is actually true. To us atheists this life is all you get, so you'd better make the most of it.
Reply

lolwatever
12-22-2006, 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This dovetails nicely with the frequent theist claim against atheists that atheists have "nothing to live for" because they believe in no afterlife. But the reverse is actually true. To us atheists this life is all you get, so you'd better make the most of it.
how is it that the 'reverse is true' ?

Muslims believe that if you don't make the most of this life, you're facing some serious danger in the afterlife.

Also... the phrase "you'd better make teh most of it" can be looked at dfiferently by different athiests, an athiest who doesn't believe in accountability may very well interpret it to mean that it's a good idea to steal, cheat, make as much money (thru whatever means), as long as you enjoy life. (and who cares about the environment).

Whereas with Muslims, that sort of interpretation is 100% out of the equation. Because it means you're destined for trouble in the hereafter :uuh:

tc all the best

ps: infact, a perfectly rational athiest would steal, cheat and all that if he knwos he can escape, since that's indeed 'making the most of your life' if there was no accountability.
Reply

snakelegs
12-22-2006, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
how is it that the 'reverse is true' ?

Muslims believe that if you don't make the most of this life, you're facing some serious danger in the afterlife.

Also... the phrase "you'd better make teh most of it" can be looked at dfiferently by different athiests, an athiest who doesn't believe in accountability may very well interpret it to mean that it's a good idea to steal, cheat, make as much money (thru whatever means), as long as you enjoy life. (and who cares about the environment).

Whereas with Muslims, that sort of interpretation is 100% out of the equation. Because it means you're destined for trouble in the hereafter :uuh:

tc all the best

ps: infact, a perfectly rational athiest would steal, cheat and all that if he knwos he can escape, since that's indeed 'making the most of your life' if there was no accountability.
making the most of this life does not necessarily mean that one should live as decadent a life-style as posible, stealing, cheating, being promiscuous etc. etc.
in fact, quite the opposite.
instead it can mean to take the time to really appreciate all the miracles that god has created - in other words, it can make you just as aware of god as those who believe in an afterlife, if not even more so. (and without the fear).
it can make you deeply thankful to god for the gift of life and make you more aware of the present than the future.
Reply

lolwatever
12-22-2006, 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
making the most of this life does not necessarily mean that one should live as decadent a life-style as posible, stealing, cheating, being promiscuous etc. etc.
in fact, quite the opposite.

instead it can mean to take the time to really appreciate all the miracles that god has created - in other words, it can make you just as aware of god as those who believe in an afterlife, if not even more so. (and without the fear).
it can make you deeply thankful to god for the gift of life and make you more aware of the present than the future.
Yes you're right in the case that the person believes in god and accountability.

In the case of athiests, they don't believe in god in the first place.. much less in thanking him.

I'm not saying every athiest is a theif n all that... i'm just saying a rational athiest who wants to make the most of their life can't be blamed for behaving like that. Afterall, they are just making the most of thier lives...

There's this interesting thing in economics called 'Cost-Benefit Principle'... Any rational human is goverened by this law (as rational people do what is in their personal interest), for a Muslim, the cost-benefit principle would dictate they don't steal, cheat etc because the cost of doing that is severe punishment in the hereafter which is much greater than the very short term benefit derived from stealing (for example).

For a rational athiest on the other hand, the benefit of stealing without getting caught could be greater than the cost of doing such a thing, since there's no accountability or punishment for doing such things.

I'm not saying every athiest is like that... i'm just saying, making the most of life can very well entail that sort of logic in the case of athiest. It all comes down to evaluating the cost and benefit derived from doing any action. That's how the world works.

tc all the best :)


ps: take a look at hurricane catrina for example, when it destroyed security systems and cameras, people went wild stealing and robbing and all.. obviously coz they don't believe much in accountability, hence doing what they think is 'making the most of their lives'.
Reply

lolwatever
12-31-2006, 11:05 AM
edit
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-31-2006, 03:42 PM
What you are refering to isn't an atheist.

It is a sociopath.

Do you really believe that religion is the only source of societal values?
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-31-2006, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This dovetails nicely with the frequent theist claim against atheists that atheists have "nothing to live for" because they believe in no afterlife. But the reverse is actually true. To us atheists this life is all you get, so you'd better make the most of it.
Originally Posted by lolwatever
how is it that the 'reverse is true' ?
I'll try to clarify.

Atheists clearly don't have "nothing to live for" if this life is all they get. Its all you get, so its that much more valuable to you.

It also isn't a testing ground or a waiting room for something better. This isn't a dress rehearsal or an interview. This is the big show. Make it a good one.
Reply

lolwatever
12-31-2006, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What you are refering to isn't an atheist.

It is a sociopath.
And what makes "sociopath's" not elligeable to become athiests:rollseyes .. it's not like there's even a single value that athiesm binds anyone to. If anything it leaves decisions purely to the human mind, which tends to be governed by the cost-benefit principle i explained above.

Do you really believe that religion is the only source of societal values?
Islam is a source of constant moral values. Athiesm on the other hand, is the source of absolutely no values. If anything, it leaves morality purely to the intellect to decide what's moral and what's not, and what's worth persuing and what's not.

And as i mentioned in prev post.. you can't blame athiest's for degenerating into species that believe in teh surival of the strongest as long as they're doing what's in their personal benefit.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I'll try to clarify.

Atheists clearly don't have "nothing to live for" if this life is all they get. Its all you get, so its that much more valuable to you.
.
Ofcourse, i didn't deny that anywhere did i? Assuming there was nothing to live for, you're perfectly correct. It's part of running a show. Everyone is there to make the most of life for themselves, so as long as they do what's in their interest, who cares.

It also isn't a testing ground or a waiting room for something better. This isn't a dress rehearsal or an interview. This is the big show. Make it a good one
And what makes you object to a rational athiest defining a good life as one that is full of stealing, cheating and all sorts of crimes when it suits him, and obeying 'societal values' when it also suits them. No one's gonna hold him accountable, so who cares?

Ofcourse.. Muslims see such mentality as one of sociopath's based on our morals, but as far as you're concerned, you're making irrational insults by labelling him as one.


So yeh... i think we've done away with this: "This dovetails nicely with the frequent theist claim against atheists that atheists have "nothing to live for" because they believe in no afterlife.But the reverse is actually true. To us atheists this life is all you get, so you'd better make the most of it."
Reply

Pygoscelis
12-31-2006, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
And what makes "sociopath's" not elligeable to become athiests:rollseyes ..
Nice straw man you are building there.

Islam is a source of constant moral values.
It is a code of behaviour. Whether they are "moral values" is in the eye of the beholder. There are many islamic "values" that other cultures find deplorable (and vice versa I am sure).

Athiesm on the other hand, is the source of absolutely no values.
True

If anything, it leaves morality purely to the intellect to decide what's moral and what's not, and what's worth persuing and what's not.
Religion may not be present but there are other social forces that are just as strong. Hence my asking you if you really believe religion to be the only source of societal values. Apparently you do. That is unfortunate.

And as i mentioned in prev post.. you can't blame athiest's for degenerating into species that believe in teh surival of the strongest as long as they're doing what's in their personal benefit.
Only if they are sociopaths, as I stated above.

And what makes you object to a rational athiest defining a good life as one that is full of stealing, cheating and all sorts of crimes when it suits him, and obeying 'societal values' when it also suits them. No one's gonna hold him accountable, so who cares?
Um this is rather a dense and offensive view.

Just because we don't codify a social code and attribute it to an imaginary 'higher power' you think we feel its ok to rape and steal and kill each other? You don't figure we come about that that isn't so good to do, independently of this religious dogma stuff?

Do you yourself have no moral values, independent of your religious belif? No sense of empathy? No drive to do right over wrong absent a primitive punishment/reward dynamic? No non-religious moral compass at all?

Maybe its burried deep beneath years of religious dogmatism, but if you look for it I'm sure its there.
If not, then I truly hope you never lose your faith, for you'd be a danger to society.

You seem to be pushing that atheists are prone to be more selfish and less empathetic and caring for their fellow human beings. Is that your claim? You may want to consider that people do all sorts of nasty things in the NAME of religion, sometimes believing themselves to be directed by it, sometimes using it to rationalize bad things they've done.

If this is your rather bold claim, maybe you should start a thread on it. It would be interesting to see you try to substantiate it. Meanwhile, this thread has an entirely different purpose.
Reply

lolwatever
01-01-2007, 01:02 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Nice straw man you are building there.
How does that answer my question :rollseyes
And what makes "sociopath's" not elligeable to be athiests?


It is a code of behaviour. Whether they are "moral values" is in the eye of the beholder. There are many islamic "values" that other cultures find deplorable (and vice versa I am sure).
You're missing the point, call it what you want, Islam has a constant and consistent code of behaviour, athiest's don't.

As far as you're own statements are concerned, Societal values contradict the idea of "making the most of your life", why should societal values be the cause of you not making the most of your life physically or in any other aspect?


Religion may not be present but there are other social forces that are just as strong. Hence my asking you if you really believe religion to be the only source of societal values. Apparently you do. That is unfortunate.
Ofcourse it isn't, but by your own saying you admit that athiests should make the most of their lives, societal values can be an obstacle to that happening (infact, when enough people start to see certain values becoming obstacles, the societal values themselves change)

So for someone who's rational, why let societal valuse (which sometimes are purely subjective and have no personal benefit) be the casue of not allowing you to make the most of your life?



Only if they are sociopaths, as I stated above.
And i dare say, Athiests have a greater incentive to become sociopath's (or atleast, split personality athiests) compared to people who believe in accountability for their actions.


Um this is rather a dense and offensive view.
Well it sure agrees with simple economic laws.

Just because we don't codify a social code and attribute it to an imaginary 'higher power' you think we feel its ok to rape and steal and kill each other? You don't figure we come about that that isn't so good to do, independently of this religious dogma stuff?
Let's look at emperics, the cities where hurricane catrina struck had very good security measures in place which served as the 'higher power' which deterred people from stealing and wreaking havoc for their own personal benefit..... When it did strike, it's not hard to read the many reports of theft and robbery and all sorts of anti societal value stuff that happened. Why? Because that higher power no longer exists, and obviously there's no other deterrant (obviously they don't have much belief in hereafter accountability)...

So your theory of 'making the most of life' would dictate (and strongly encourage) that they do such things to make maximum personal gain. You think they're sociopaths? well whatever you think they are, they are rational innit :X

Do you yourself have no moral values, independent of your religious belif? No sense of empathy? No drive to do right over wrong absent a primitive punishment/reward dynamic? No non-religious moral compass at all?
Well give me a single piece of evidence that suggests that societal values can be upheld without their being some form of higher overseeing authority? Even in this modern era we see that society will definately crumble if people arent' aware of someething overseeing their actions.

It's unfortunate that you think we believe in imagintive powers.... for someone who pretended to have some sort of scientific understanding to come to odd conclusions in that 'no god exist thread'... it's a lil too above your level to discuss whether accountability is something real or unreal if you hold outrageous views like 'anything can happen given infinite time...'

Maybe its burried deep beneath years of religious dogmatism, but if you look for it I'm sure its there.
If not, then I truly hope you never lose your faith, for you'd be a danger to society.
I'm not here to try prove that you're a thief when no one's looking (that's not piont of this thread), but what i am saying is that you're absolutely wrong when you said:
"This dovetails nicely with the frequent theist claim against atheists that atheists have "nothing to live for" because they believe in no afterlife.But the reverse is actually true. To us atheists this life is all you get, so you'd better make the most of it."

You seem to be pushing that atheists are prone to be more selfish and less empathetic and caring for their fellow human beings. Is that your claim? You may want to consider that people do all sorts of nasty things in the NAME of religion, sometimes believing themselves to be directed by it, sometimes using it to rationalize bad things they've done.
I'm not pushing anything... i'm just stating the obvious

"Humans are goverend by the cost-benefit principle, they will do what is in their personal interest in every situation"

Taking the theft scenario for example, assuming there was absoltuely no one watching and no way of getting caught,

This is a very possible situation: For an athiest, benefit of stealing 5kg of gold could possibly outweigh the cost of such an act. There's no accountabilty of cost in first place... so why not?

In case of a Muslim, the cost of stealing could be many years in hell fire :| By the cost-benefit principle, a rational Muslim would not steal, an athiest could.

As far as your other thign about peopel doing bad things in name of religion, that's why im talking only as far as Islam is concerned coz i dunno much about hwo other religions see this.

What we're talking about here is the psychology of the end of time and the concept of accountability, as far as that is concerned, i think we've made the point that it is indeed a very strong motive for Muslims to behave themselves in this world in order to be successful in this life and hereafter.

And in order to further give us incentive to be concientous pepole, Allah set down a legal system which drives those with lack of faith away from doing illegal acts (such as the laws regarding theft, adultery, rape, financial misconduct etc...) which acts as a deterrant for those who don't think straight when it comes to remembering the hereafter.

You can't make judgemetns about people (Muslims or otherwise) in an environment where the legal system isn't applied as a complete package otherwise the society just wont' function properly (it's like banning alchohol and advertising it 24/7, just doesn't work)

If this is your rather bold claim, maybe you should start a thread on it. It would be interesting to see you try to substantiate it. Meanwhile, this thread has an entirely different purpose.
Substantiate what? That rational human beigns do what's in their personal interset? Pickup any micro economics book it's usually discussed in the first chapter or so... My main point was to prove your claim that athiests take teh higher ground when it comes to making the most of indivudal's life is baseless.

all the best
Reply

dougmusr
01-01-2007, 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by netprince
Muslim Psychology regarding the "end times" should be:

If the end time comes and you are planting a seed, plant the seed.
If I am planting a seed when the end times comes and the trumpet of God sounds, I expect I will no longer be close enough to the ground to provide it a decent burial.

Mat 24:40 "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. "
Reply

Malaikah
01-01-2007, 05:11 AM
^Obviously. Everyone would be dead. The point of the saying is to never underestimate a good deed and that you will be reward for that good that you intended even if nothing really comes out of it (like the seed, it will just die). :thumbs_up
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-01-2007, 03:15 PM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
Mat 24:40 "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. "
This always gets me thinking. I saw that "Left Behind" movie and the first thing that occurred to me is that this a good reason to keep "True Christians" out of any jobs of reliance. Good reason to stop them from becoming airline pilots, firemen or anything that we depend on really.

That they believe in End Times and that they will go Poof and abandon the rest of us, yet they still seek to be in jobs others rely on, seems to indicate that they don't care about those they leave behind. Doesn't it? Itsn't it negligent to put yourself in a role others are depending on if you think you're more likely than others to vanish at any moment?

That may not apply to those who believe in end times coming eventually, at some unknown time in the future, but it sure seems to apply to those who declare that we are living in the end times.
Reply

Trumble
01-01-2007, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever

You're missing the point, call it what you want, Islam has a constant and consistent code of behaviour, athiest's don't.
Atheism doesn't include a code of "constant and consistent behaviour". It is a philosophical perspective on a particular issue (the existence or otherwise of God, not ethics), not a religion itself. My laundry list doesn't include such a code, either - in both cases it would not belong there.

Atheists , however, usually do have such a code of behaviour, just like muslims or Christians. Like those people they are brought up in societies, and societies themselves have those codes - they need them to exist at all (and had them long before Christianity or Islam). Atheists are also thinking people who have their own opinions on social and ethical issues. They believe those views, resulting from examination of the relevant issue and critical thinking regarding it are far more likely to be 'right' and relevant to something written (obviously, by definition in their case, by man not God) many centuries ago. Atheism does not exclude religion either, just one flavour of it. Buddhists are generally atheists, but abide by a "constant and consistent code of behaviour" of religious origin just as much as muslims do.
Reply

dougmusr
01-01-2007, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This always gets me thinking. I saw that "Left Behind" movie and the first thing that occurred to me is that this a good reason to keep "True Christians" out of any jobs of reliance. Good reason to stop them from becoming airline pilots, firemen or anything that we depend on really.

That they believe in End Times and that they will go Poof and abandon the rest of us, yet they still seek to be in jobs others rely on, seems to indicate that they don't care about those they leave behind. Doesn't it? Itsn't it negligent to put yourself in a role others are depending on if you think you're more likely than others to vanish at any moment?

That may not apply to those who believe in end times coming eventually, at some unknown time in the future, but it sure seems to apply to those who declare that we are living in the end times.
In fact the same could be said for any mortal. In a real sense, we are all living in the end times when one compares the length of a human life to eternity. Jobs are held by those who are one heart beat away from abandoning those who rely on them. Rarely does a person have an awareness beforehand that the next heart beat will be the last.
Reply

lolwatever
01-01-2007, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Atheism doesn't include a code of "constant and consistent behaviour". It is a philosophical perspective on a particular issue (the existence or otherwise of God, not ethics), not a religion itself. My laundry list doesn't include such a code, either - in both cases it would not belong there.
I agree, and Islam is more than just a view about whether god exists or not, it's a way of life. Complete with moral code, legal system n all.

Atheists , however, usually do have such a code of behaviour, just like muslims or Christians.
Except that it varies, and as Pygo said... such that it agrees with the idea of "make the most of your life". Which quite simply, doesn't necessitate any good behaviour to result from them.

Like those people they are brought up in societies, and societies themselves have those codes - they need them to exist at all (and had them long before Christianity or Islam). Atheists are also thinking people who have their own opinions on social and ethical issues.
Point is, There's no incentive to stick to those views if they clash with personal interest. It's a fundamental law of economics that people will do what's in their interest.

If there's no one watching, the benefit of stealing a tonne of cash could outweigh the cost for an atheist, not so for a Muslim.

Simply because, for athiest, the cost of doing such thing is nothing (if there's no one watching or no chance of getting caught), for a Muslim, the cost of stealing is punishment in hellfire if he isn't caught in this world.

And that answers the point of this thread... 'whats the psych behind end of times' :rollseyes

They believe those views, resulting from examination of the relevant issue and critical thinking regarding it are far more likely to be 'right' and relevant to something written (obviously, by definition in their case, by man not God) many centuries ago.
isn't that offtopic? the point is, who carse if they believe them or not, whether they'll be applied on personal level is completely diff story, tell me, so you're sayign athiests can operate a society without a government or security force because they can make their own good decisions for themselves? Well that's for you to prove that to me.

The fact is, when you're aware that someone is overwatching you wouldn't do what you could do otherwise (e.g. steal). In Muslim case, There's 2 deterrants:

- For those with faith, the punishment in hereafter is deterrent enough (even athiests would agree it's scary enough to stop one from theft)
- For those who get tempted, the punishment in this world (removal of hand) is another strong layer of security.

Both these two serve as great incentive to stay away from theft.

In the case of athiests, that first (most important) measure of security simply isn't there. And when the second layer of security is absent, you get the situation fo New Orleans and hurricane catrina.

Hence the psychology behind judgemetn day is very effective in creating well behaved citizens.

Atheism does not exclude religion either, just one flavour of it. Buddhists are generally atheists, but abide by a "constant and consistent code of behaviour" of religious origin just as much as muslims do.
No the difference is that budhists (i think from what i red in ur thread) have some sort of goal to achieve in some form of afterlife... whilst that's no where near as good as an incentive as the ones Muslims have (punishment vs. reward), the incentive is still there. And that's the point of this thread.

I'm talking about people who are agnostic when it comes to religion and athiest when it comes to god.

Anyway, i hope i made this clear. Pygo is hesitant to admit, this line of his is a massive lie:

"This dovetails nicely with the frequent theist claim against atheists that atheists have "nothing to live for" because they believe in no afterlife.But the reverse is actually true. To us atheists this life is all you get, so you'd better make the most of it."
Reply

lolwatever
01-01-2007, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This always gets me thinking. I saw that "Left Behind" movie and the first thing that occurred to me is that this a good reason to keep "True Christians" out of any jobs of reliance. Good reason to stop them from becoming airline pilots, firemen or anything that we depend on really.

That they believe in End Times and that they will go Poof and abandon the rest of us, yet they still seek to be in jobs others rely on, seems to indicate that they don't care about those they leave behind. Doesn't it? Itsn't it negligent to put yourself in a role others are depending on if you think you're more likely than others to vanish at any moment?

That may not apply to those who believe in end times coming eventually, at some unknown time in the future, but it sure seems to apply to those who declare that we are living in the end times.
The first 2 paragraphs have been answered with regards to Muslims and Islam in previous posts.

The last one, has been answered here as well:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post602996

end of times simply means judgement day is getting closer, which obviously means we should be taking care of earth and the environment if we wanna do well when the end of time actually comes :uuh:
I don't think u need to go in circles.

And your hate post was deleted, perhaps try again and be more rational and civilised in your speech. and keep on topic, you forgot your own question

"If the article's numbers are accurate I have to wonder about the psychological effects of that belief. Do these people have any reason to care for the long term health of the planet or the societies upon it?"

all the best.
Reply

Fishman
01-01-2007, 07:36 PM
:sl:
I think that believing that we are in the end times makes a religious person happier, as they are more sure of their faith. So no negative psychological problems here. The real danger is if they believe that the end is coming at a particular date, and when the date passes and nothing happens, they become really upset and commit mass-suicide, like those cults did...
:w:
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-01-2007, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by dougmusr
In fact the same could be said for any mortal.
Yes, but the key difference here is that the "True Christians" believe they are going to be snatched up any minute, and are more likely to suddently vanish than the heathens they leave behind.

Yes, anybody can die. But these believers have that PLUS the rapture to think about.
Reply

Trumble
01-01-2007, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
tell me, so you're sayign athiests can operate a society without a government or security force because they can make their own good decisions for themselves? Well that's for you to prove that to me.
In that context atheists are no different from muslims. Muslims might (it's very much a 'might' - otherwise why do muslim countries need governments and security forces?) decide to follow the Qur'an both because it is right and, for the reasons that you have explained, that it would be in their own self-interest. Atheists might (same proviso) decide that generally being co-operative and nice to each other would be to everybody's benefit - including their own. Many political philosophers have argued precisely that. In the end, it is self-interest in both cases.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-01-2007, 08:22 PM
Psychopaths can be atheists. Nobody said they could not, which is why I pointed out lolwhatevers strawman when he made it. Psychopaths can also be muslims. Or any other religion.

If Islam was a belief system that magically kept all believers in line, as lolwhatever seems to be claiming it is, then it would not need to support extreme measures such as cutting off limbs or stoning people for indiscretion. It would need no legal system at all, as people would fear Allah's wrath. And that wrath alone would suffice. Apparently that doesn't work and they do need deterants (as does every other society).

The people in New Orleans are predominently religious, not atheistic, so using Katrina looting to show atheists as less moral is not valid.

Oh and my comment about the "True Christians" end timers wasn't about muslims, so why on earth am I getting a reply like that?

And as to the following being "a massive lie" that is just rather a lame statement, and awfully antagonistic too. lolwhatever didn't even address it but went off on a tangent to try to "win" some weird debate nobody is engaging in.

I wrote

"This dovetails nicely with the frequent theist claim against atheists that atheists have "nothing to live for" because they believe in no afterlife.But the reverse is actually true. To us atheists this life is all you get, so you'd better make the most of it."

And lolwhatever, even you agreed above that the statement is true, that atheists do hold this life as somthing to live for. You just went off on a tangent about how that something to live for will be selfish and immoral (so you claim).
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-01-2007, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
decide that generally being co-operative and nice to each other would be to everybody's benefit - including their own. Many political philosophers have argued precisely that. In the end, it is self-interest in both cases.
Indeed.

I believe that all morality can be boiled down to empathy + self interest + social programming (perhaps the strongest, and this sometimes includes religions but more often includes upbringing and peer expectations)

But thats another topic entirely.
Reply

Fishman
01-01-2007, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If Islam was a belief system that magically kept all believers in line, as lolwhatever seems to be claiming it is, then it would not need to support extreme measures such as cutting off limbs or stoning people for indiscretion. It would need no legal system at all, as people would fear Allah's wrath. And that wrath alone would suffice. Apparently that doesn't work and they do need deterants (as does every other society).
:sl:
That's because Islam does not magically keep everybody in line! It certainly incourages people to do good deeds, but of course some people are not going to have true faith, and desire their own pleasure more than the pleasure of God (swt) and the pleasure of other people.

And these sinning people are wronging themselves too, since obeying Allaah (swt) is much more pleasurable than any thing of this world. Truely practicing Islam can put you at peace, and give you a wonderful happy feeling. And unlike lust, drugs or any other worldly pleasure, this feeling has nothing bad about it, for it is a natural emotion. What is this called? Pure happiness. I speak from personal experience here. Sometimes I sit down on my prayer rug, and I just get overwhelmed with this wondeful happy feeling, which makes me want to praise and prostrate to Allaah (swt). I have never felt it before I was Muslim.
:w:
Reply

glo
01-01-2007, 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This always gets me thinking. I saw that "Left Behind" movie and the first thing that occurred to me is that this a good reason to keep "True Christians" out of any jobs of reliance. Good reason to stop them from becoming airline pilots, firemen or anything that we depend on really.

That they believe in End Times and that they will go Poof and abandon the rest of us, yet they still seek to be in jobs others rely on, seems to indicate that they don't care about those they leave behind. Doesn't it? Itsn't it negligent to put yourself in a role others are depending on if you think you're more likely than others to vanish at any moment?

That may not apply to those who believe in end times coming eventually, at some unknown time in the future, but it sure seems to apply to those who declare that we are living in the end times.
Interesting argument ... :)

I know that there are some who seem quite convinced that we live in the end times, but - as mentioned in an earlier post - Jesus himself said that nobody knows the hour. In the meantime - again, as discussed earlier - we are supposed to get on with our earthly responsibilties ... which would include our daily jobs.
I don't think many Christians (or others) would refuse certain jobs of responsibility in case they get 'snatched away on the job ...!'

After all, you could equally suffer a heart attack on the job, and as a consequence neglect your protective duty towards others ...

Also, I don't assume for one moment that you make the same mistake some Christians make: to forget that the 'Left behind' series - though based on scripture - is, and always will be fiction!

On a general note, I am married to an atheist, and I whole-heartedly agree with you that the notion that non-theists have no moral basis is entirely untrue!
I do, however, believe that believing in and following God offers a different kind of moral basis, and one of greater authority at that. But that's a different discussion ...

Peace
Reply

lolwatever
01-02-2007, 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
In that context atheists are no different from muslims. Muslims might (it's very much a 'might' - otherwise why do muslim countries need governments and security forces?) decide to follow the Qur'an both because it is right and, for the reasons that you have explained, that it would be in their own self-interest. Atheists might (same proviso) decide that generally being co-operative and nice to each other would be to everybody's benefit - including their own. Many political philosophers have argued precisely that. In the end, it is self-interest in both cases.
I dont think you read my reply to you.

The question is 'what's the psychological effects of end of time'. In short i said it provides double incentive to avoid doing bad things, emperics proves that it does precisely that.

Burglary stats between 1998-2000 according to the U.N.

1. United States 2,099,700 burglaries (1999)
2. United Kingdom 836,027 burglaries (2000)
.
.
.
54. Saudi Arabia 11 (2000)!!!!




Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Psychopaths can be atheists. Nobody said they could not, which is why I pointed out lolwhatevers strawman when he made it. Psychopaths can also be muslims. Or any other religion.
From the stats above, it's less liekly that a Muslim would be a psychopath compared to someoen from other sorta ideology innit :D

If Islam was a belief system that magically kept all believers in line, as lolwhatever seems to be claiming it is, then it would not need to support extreme measures such as cutting off limbs or stoning people for indiscretion. It would need no legal system at all, as people would fear Allah's wrath. And that wrath alone would suffice. Apparently that doesn't work and they do need deterants (as does every other society).
You're missing the point, you asked what's the psychological effects of the end of time, my posts have answered that. And you're telling me that's not true, prove it.

You've got problems with reading english... here's what i said that answers the above.

"The fact is, when you're aware that someone is overwatching you wouldn't do what you could do otherwise (e.g. steal). In Muslim case, There's 2 deterrants:

- For those with faith, the punishment in hereafter is deterrent enough (even athiests would agree it's scary enough to stop one from theft)
- For those who get tempted, the punishment in this world (removal of hand) is another strong layer of security."


The people in New Orleans are predominently religious, not atheistic, so using Katrina looting to show atheists as less moral is not valid.
Again you're missing the point, you're asking "whats teh effect on end of times" , for Muslims it serves as a strong incentive, for other religions where they believe that god forgives everythign and anything, obviously end of time doesn't have much of a benefit if you've got a carte-Blanche to do whatever you please and eb forgiven for it.

That's why i'm talking with regafds to Muslims.

So with regards to katrina, it doesnt matter that they're athiests or others sorts of non Muslims, i'm just focusing on athiests coz its a simple example to use for psychology and economic analysis. And seeing that you're an athiest, you'd relate to them better.

Oh and my comment about the "True Christians" end timers wasn't about muslims, so why on earth am I getting a reply like that?
I know that, just wanted to re-emphasize my point with regards to Muslims. Since you seem to have trouble getting the message.

And as to the following being "a massive lie" that is just rather a lame statement, and awfully antagonistic too. lolwhatever didn't even address it but went off on a tangent to try to "win" some weird debate nobody is engaging in

I wrote

"This dovetails nicely with the frequent theist claim against atheists that atheists have "nothing to live for" because they believe in no afterlife.But the reverse is actually true. To us atheists this life is all you get, so you'd better make the most of it."
You implied by that that athiests have a greater incentive to be good, and i proved using simple economics and psychology that the reverse is actually true. Unless what you meant by "making the most of life" to include stealing, robbing, lying and all that.


And lolwhatever, even you agreed above that the statement is true, that atheists do hold this life as somthing to live for. You just went off on a tangent about how that something to live for will be selfish and immoral (so you claim).
Where did i say "something to live for will be selfish and immoral (so you claim)." :? I said that it's very reasonabel to conclude that athiests are liekly to be robbers and theives behind the scenes, using that cost-benefit principel that you love to dodge.

You want answers based on psychology, yet you seem to have avoided everything to do with the laws i mentioned surrounding human behaviour as far as 'making the most of life' is concerned!

You're behaviour is beginning to mirror the one you displayed int aht athiesm thread. Time to grow out of it fella :mmokay:
Reply

lolwatever
01-02-2007, 02:07 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Indeed.

I believe that all morality can be boiled down to empathy + self interest + social programming (perhaps the strongest, and this sometimes includes religions but more often includes upbringing and peer expectations)

But thats another topic entirely.
Exactly.

Self Interst: It's in muslims interest to behave well since we know taht we will be held accountable. Athiests dont' have that incentive.

Economics tells us that self interest accoutns for more than 90% of human behaviour (in case fo perfectly rational beings, 100%).

Social programming: It is a direct result from the self interest of all individuals. If no security or watching bodies where in place, social programming would program society to become bunch of robebrs and all forms of other crooks. Relating this to the topic, judgemetn day as far as Muslims are concerned makes them more conceintous of the fact they will be judged and therefore society is less likely to plunge into turmoil, unlike the case of an athiestic society for example. (The stats mentioned at the very top prove it, yes the US isnt 100% atheistic, nor is the UK, but the inhabitants sure dont hav proper understanding of judgemetn day and the 'end of time', so you're in the same boat)

Empathy only kicks in once Human's have fulfilled enough of whats in their own interest to begin to think about others.


As far as ur question is concerned "wats the psych effects of end of times", we can see it is great, because accountability dictates that self interest is measured with respect to the hereafter, rather than limited to immediate benefits (such as benefiting from stealing for eaxmple).
Reply

lolwatever
01-02-2007, 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
In that context atheists are no different from muslims. Muslims might (it's very much a 'might' - otherwise why do muslim countries need governments and security forces?) decide to follow the Qur'an both because it is right and, for the reasons that you have explained, that it would be in their own self-interest. Atheists might (same proviso) decide that generally being co-operative and nice to each other would be to everybody's benefit - including their own. Many political philosophers have argued precisely that. In the end, it is self-interest in both cases.
The idea of judgement day however means that Muslims will have much less crime in their societies because of the greater incentive presented for themt o avoid such things.

Athiests simply don't, there's more to it than the happy clappy thought of "everyone will act in the interest of the whole rather than their own interest", it's actually the other way around.

A fundamental law of economics is that people will act in their own (precisely their own). It's called the 'cot-benefit' prinicple, or technically known as 'The Law of Opportunity Cost'

all the best :)
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-02-2007, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
Burglary stats between 1998-2000 according to the U.N.

1. United States 2,099,700 burglaries (1999)
The unites states is one of the most religious countries in the world.

Take a look at more secular countries such as Canada, Japan, Denmark, Australia, and the numbers are much lower.

Prison stats also show that the incarcerated are more likely to be religious than not, and it is out of proportion to the general population. And these figures are taken upon incarceration, not after, so no, it isn't a matter of conversion in prison.

And note that these countries are not authoritarian or dictatorial, such as Saudi Arabia.

From the stats above, it's less liekly that a Muslim would be a psychopath compared to someoen from other sorta ideology innit :D
Not necesarily so. You are mistaking correlation with causation. The underlying variables here are the regime and its methods, the arrest rate, and the rate of prosecution.

That's why i'm talking with regafds to Muslims.
That is fine. But then don't try to invent a false dichotomy between Muslims and Atheists. Reread your posts and you may realize that is what you have tried to do.

So with regards to katrina, it doesnt matter that they're athiests or others sorts of non Muslims
It does when you try to use it to claim that athiests are less moral due to atheism. If you mean non-muslims then you should say non-muslims, which would then bring a whole host of other objections into play.

You implied by that that athiests have a greater incentive to be good
Only in your creative interpretation of what I wrote. And this is where you took one small observatoin and twisted it to derail thread.

I actually said no such thing. I only said they have a lot to live for. THey have purpose in their lives. You somehow twisted that into your little tirade.

And I don't actually believe atheists to have a greater incentive to be good, nor are they inherently lacking morality like you seem to believe. They just have one less control over their minds. This can lead to good or bad things.

Atheists don't kill in the name of a God.
They don't engage in mass suicide in hope of catching a comet (heaven's gate) or drink poisoned coolaid (Jim Jones) en mass.
They don't strap bombs to their chests or fly planes into buildings because God told them to (muslim terrorists).
They don't kill their own children to send them to heaven (Yates I think that one was).
They don't deny their children life saving blood transfusions (Jehovas Witnesses).
They don't pretend everything is OK and shed their guilt because God has forgiven them for their sins.
They are far less likely to engage in bigotry against somebody because of sexual orientation.
They are far less likely to assign gender roles or engage in sexism.
They don't place their imagined interest of "God" above those of mankind.
They don't interfere in science classrooms pushing a creation myth as science.
They don't stand in the way of potentially life saving stem cell research.
They don't stand in the way of condom use, thus increasing the spread of STDs.
They don't tie "witches" to stakes and burn them to death.
They don't kill converts who turn away from their world view.
They don't engage in inquisitions for their God.

I could go on like that for hours. But I think the point is made. Religion inspires and rationalizes as much harm as good.

Obedience is not the same thing as Good. What a structured religious regiment does is encourage obedience to whatever the God is perceived as desiring. Yes, it may keep the odd psychopath in line. But this is also why it has been so effectively used and abused so many times in history to effect so many attrocities.

You're behaviour is beginning to mirror the one you displayed int aht athiesm thread. Time to grow out of it fella :mmokay:
It is kind of cute when you try to be offensive and self-important at the same time.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-02-2007, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
I said that it's very reasonabel to conclude that athiests are liekly to be robbers and theives behind the scenes

In saying that this is "likely" you are again dismissing all non-religious sources of morality. And again I have to wonder, do you have no moral compass aside from your religious doctrine? If you lost faith would you really become a robber?
Reply

lolwatever
01-02-2007, 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The unites states is one of the most religious countries in the world.
i'll make this loud and clear.

This thread is not to do with whether you're religious or not, it's to do with the psychology of believing in the end of times. You could believe that you're in the end of time but still behave like a crook if you also happen to think that you won't be held accountable just coz u attribute yoruself to a certain dogma.

I'm just using the example of athiests coz you'd relate to it better. That's all.

I'll put it in simpler terms, it's to do with psychology of the effects of end of times with regards to Muslims, compared to people who don't have that motive (like athiests for example).

Take a look at more secular countries such as Canada, Japan, Denmark, Australia, and the numbers are much lower.
You're missing the point, and take a look at a country like Saudi, and the numbers are much lower.

And the US is a good example coz it illustrates that there is no effect in believing ur in the end of time if your understanding is messed up.

Prison stats also show that the incarcerated are more likely to be religious than not, and it is out of proportion to the general population. And these figures are taken upon incarceration, not after, so no, it isn't a matter of conversion in prison.
Shesh you n ur going off topic. I'll remind you of what i said:

"For Muslims who believe in the end of time, it serves as a double incentive to behave properly... and this is reflected in stats" Where was i trying to say this applies to other groups just coz they claim to believe in it?

And note that these countries are not authoritarian or dictatorial, such as Saudi Arabia.
Saudi is an autocracy very true, and i'm not tryign to defend it, but when it coems to applying the few laws that are from Islam (e.g. theft and alchohol), the positive effects on society are clearly visible.

It's a consensus that alchohol is a demerit good, the US tried banning it without success, when the revelation for alchohol ban was revealed in Madinah, streets where flowign with dumped alchohol immediately after it's illegality was announced.

Comes down to the fact that people who don't have a proper understanding of judgemetn day will do things only in their worldy interest, where as people who do (like Muslims) will do things in their personal interest with respect to the hereafter.

What's your problem with that?


From the stats above, it's less liekly that a Muslim would be a psychopath compared to someoen from other sorta ideology innit
Not necesarily so. You are mistaking correlation with causation. The underlying variables here are the regime and its methods, the arrest rate, and the rate of prosecution.
Ok, prove to me that saudi has an issue of binge drinkers and drunkies running around the streets like other countries would. Or that theft is rampant (even though its inhabitatns are much less well off compared to the US for example).

And the UN report doesn't raise up any of the doubts you put on the stats.



That is fine. But then don't try to invent a false dichotomy between Muslims and Atheists. Reread your posts and you may realize that is what you have tried to do.
What false dichotomy? I'm stating the simple and obvious.

Athiests don't have incentive to be good when no one is watching.

Muslims do.

If i was talking to people of other faith who don't have proper understanding of day of judgement i'd replace 'athiest' with their way of life.


It does when you try to use it to claim that athiests are less moral due to atheism. If you mean non-muslims then you should say non-muslims, which would then bring a whole host of other objections into play.
Nope, saying non-Muslim means i have to prove that every other sorta ideology besides Islam has an incorrect understanding of accountability etc. Which isn't necessarily true. So I'll stick to using people like you as an example, since that's more accurate. And illustrates my point very well.


Only in your creative interpretation of what I wrote. And this is where you took one small observatoin and twisted it to derail thread.

I actually said no such thing. I only said they have a lot to live for. THey have purpose in their lives. You somehow twisted that into your little tirade.
So why where you upset when i gave a very plausible interpretation and said:

the phrase "you'd better make teh most of it" can be looked at dfiferently by different athiests, an athiest who doesn't believe in accountability may very well interpret it to mean that it's a good idea to steal, cheat, make as much money (thru whatever means), as long as you enjoy life. (and who cares about the environment).

Whereas with Muslims, that sort of interpretation is 100% out of the equation. Because it means you're destined for trouble in the hereafter :uuh:

tc all the best

ps: infact, a perfectly rational athiest would steal, cheat and all that if he knwos he can escape, since that's indeed 'making the most of your life' if there was no accountability.
And I don't actually believe atheists to have a greater incentive to be good, nor are they inherently lacking morality like you seem to believe. They just have one less control over their minds. This can lead to good or bad things.
And i'm saying it can only lead to more bad things from them. since Muslims are encouraged to every good (from learning to raising kids to business etc etc). Athiests are encouraged to nothing, so if they do good. It's something that Islam already would approve of. and if it's bad, that's a bypass of their obstinance with respect to believing in God.

Atheists don't kill in the name of a God.
They kill for personal interest. i.e. Islam doesn't tolerate destroying a country to steal their riches, an athiestic mentality could.

They don't engage in mass suicide in hope of catching a comet (heaven's gate) or drink poisoned coolaid (Jim Jones) en mass.
That goes for all people who believe in getting judged.

They don't strap bombs to their chests or fly planes into buildings because God told them to (muslim terrorists).
Where did they say 'god told them to', and you need to prove that it was Muslims who did fly planes into buildings (even national TV in australia presented evidence that it was highly unlikely to be Muslims, regardless of people affiliating themselves to it).

And name me a single Muslim country at peace throughout histroy that would blow em selves up for no reasons. Ever occurred to you that the ones who do it got kicked out of theri homes and property ? :?

They don't kill their own children to send them to heaven (Yates I think that one was).
Neither do Muslims, again you're missing the point, how many times do i have to remind you that i'm only talking about people hwo beleive in day of judgement properly. And as far as i'm concerned, it's Muslims that i'm talking about.

Your memory taht bad? :exhausted

They don't deny their children life saving blood transfusions (Jehovas Witnesses).
nor do people who believe properly in accountability. e.g. Muslims.
Don't you get sick of going in circles?

They don't pretend everything is OK and shed their guilt because God has forgiven them for their sins.

nor do people who believe properly in accountability. e.g. Muslims.
Don't you get sick of going in circles?

They are far less likely to engage in bigotry against somebody because of sexual orientation.
And Athiests (and people who don't believe in accountability) are far more likely to become AIDs sources.

They are far less likely to assign gender roles or engage in sexism.
Sexism? Prove it, the media using women as sex objects is sexism enough. Good example of what happens when you don't beleive in hereafter.

No one respects women more than Muslims. No single person besides Muslims lowers their gaze when they speak to a women out of respect and are obliged to use kind words and be kind to them.

The Prophet said: 'I command you to be kind to women.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)

The Prophet said: 'The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to their wives. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Athiests and others are more likely to treat them in any manner as long as it suits thier personal interest (e.g. use them as sex objects).

They don't place their imagined interest of "God" above those of mankind.
i dont get ur point. And your 'imagined' shows the arrogance you're filled with.

They don't interfere in science classrooms pushing a creation myth as science.
1. Prove its a myth. Stop using emotionally loaded terms without proving their validity.
2. Islam doesn't oppose evolution when it comes to non-Human species.

They don't stand in the way of potentially life saving stem cell research.
Nor do Muslims, http://www.islamonline.net/english/V...article6.shtml

They don't stand in the way of condom use, thus increasing the spread of STDs.
Who said Muslims ban contraception :rollseyes

They don't tie "witches" to stakes and burn them to death.
Muslims don't.

They don't kill converts who turn away from their world view.
Muslims don't force conversion on anyone and remind people of their obligations if they choose to become Muslim. Part of the deal is that they are agreeing to the punishment of death if they chose to leave Islam.

And even in the event they do, they are debated till they have no reply.

They don't engage in inquisitions for their God.
Nor Do Muslims.

I could go on like that for hours. But I think the point is made. Religion inspires and rationalizes as much harm as good.
I've just about nocked down every one of your points... and finally:

WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE TOPIC :rollseyes


Obedience is not the same thing as Good. What a structured religious regiment does is encourage obedience to whatever the God is perceived as desiring. Yes, it may keep the odd psychopath in line. But this is also why it has been so effectively used and abused so many times in history to effect so many attrocities.
Finally the point is finally kinda hitting home.

And please, next time you say "But this is also why it has been so effectively used and abused so many times in history to effect so many attrocities.", prove it.

Give me examples where Muslims wreaked havoc in conditions of social equillibrium.

It is kind of cute when you try to be offensive and self-important at the same time.
Seriously, let me ask you, what sort of answer are you looking for then?!

You asked a question, you got an answer, i tried to be nice using 'take care all the best' at the end of my posts. And all of a sudden it's like i'm a thunder bolt electricuting u.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
In saying that this is "likely" you are again dismissing all non-religious sources of morality. And again I have to wonder, do you have no moral compass aside from your religious doctrine? If you lost faith would you really become a robber?
Please pygo... stop going off topic. Read your first post.

You didn't ask "are there other sources of morality"

You said "what are the psych effects of believing in end of time" And i told you it simply means that for those with proper understanding (e.g. Muslims) it means they have double incentive to follow their moral code.

Unlike people who don't beleive in judgemetn day, e.g. Athiests.

Nothing to do with whether there's other moral sources or not (ofcourse they are), in the case of atheists, whether they'll be followed is subject to their evaluation against personal interest. As the law of Opportunity Cost and 'Cost-Benefit' principle dictates.
Reply

Idris
01-02-2007, 08:32 PM
Atheists don't kill in the name of a God.
They don't engage in mass suicide in hope of catching a comet (heaven's gate) or drink poisoned coolaid (Jim Jones) en mass.
They don't strap bombs to their chests or fly planes into buildings because God told them to (muslim terrorists).
They don't kill their own children to send them to heaven (Yates I think that one was).
They don't deny their children life saving blood transfusions (Jehovas Witnesses).
They don't pretend everything is OK and shed their guilt because God has forgiven them for their sins.
They are far less likely to engage in bigotry against somebody because of sexual orientation.
They are far less likely to assign gender roles or engage in sexism.
They don't place their imagined interest of "God" above those of mankind.
They don't interfere in science classrooms pushing a creation myth as science.
They don't stand in the way of potentially life saving stem cell research.
They don't stand in the way of condom use, thus increasing the spread of STDs.
They don't tie "witches" to stakes and burn them to death.
They don't kill converts who turn away from their world view.
They don't engage in inquisitions for their God.
During World War II (1939-1945), 50 million people were killed I can name may wars that Athiests started but time is running out ...I think it's going to be the end of time soon. :)
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-02-2007, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
when the revelation for alchohol ban was revealed in Madinah, streets where flowign with dumped alchohol immediately after it's illegality was announced.
This doesn't know "goodness". This shows obedience. And I actually wonder if its even the religion in play here, or instead fear of the brutal regime in power.

Athiests don't have incentive to be good when no one is watching.
ps: infact, a perfectly rational athiest would steal, cheat and all that if he knwos he can escape
i tried to be nice using 'take care all the best' at the end of my posts.
Here you've got to be joking.

You announce that athiests have no incentive to be good absent punishment/reward dynamic, that athiests lack all morality and need to be controlled to behave, that they SHOULD (so apparently you would? Seriously, would you? I've asked before and you don't seem to want to answer) cheat and steal if they think they can get away with it, and then you think you can sanitize this offensive statement by saying 'take care all the best' at the end of your post? And you think that also sanitizes all the lame attempts at insults you lace your posts with? You really that self absorbed?

My post above was to show that religion can give you added incentive to be good, yes, and also give you incentive to be BAD. It inspires and rationalizes all sorts of evil in this world. Open your eyes and look around. You say that suicide bombers and the 9/11 terrorists and those guys who saw off peoples' heads are not muslims yet they certainly believe that they are. Just ask them. You are engaging in the no true scottsman fallacy.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-02-2007, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
During World War II (1939-1945), 50 million people were killed I can name may wars that Athiests started but time is running out ...I think it's going to be the end of time soon. :)
Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Hitler wasn't an atheist. He was some really off track variation of Christian. He was Roman Catholic by birth and by self-claim, but he didn't really follow the tenets of the Catholic church. He certainly did believe in his God though. In fact he stated numerous times that his eradication of the Jews was a holy act.

If you want to bring up wars and attrocities committed by atheists your better bets are Stalin and Mao. But note that neither of them did what they did in the NAME of atheism.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-02-2007, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
ps: infact, a perfectly rational athiest would steal, cheat and all that if he knwos he can escape, since that's indeed 'making the most of your life' if there was no accountability.
I'm still amazed at this belief you hold. You really think that I should be doing all these horrible things? You would be?

There are all sorts of nasty selfish things I know for certain I could get away with. Yet I don't do them. Why?

What do you figure is stopping me?
Reply

Idris
01-02-2007, 09:14 PM
If you want to bring up wars and attrocities committed by atheists your better bets are Stalin and Mao. But note that neither of them did what they did in the NAME of atheism.
Hitler wasn't an atheist. He was some really off track variation of Christian. He was Roman Catholic by birth and by self-claim, but he didn't really follow the tenets of the Catholic church. He certainly did believe in his God though. In fact he stated numerous times that his eradication of the Jews was a holy act.

Sorry but I really don't think you know what atheism is.... who is doing anything in the NAME of atheism now or b4? I don't think you should have atheist as your way of life but Munafiqun
Reply

Malaikah
01-03-2007, 01:20 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This doesn't know "goodness". This shows obedience. And I actually wonder if its even the religion in play here, or instead fear of the brutal regime in power.
Don't even go there, it was nothing but pure love and devote to God and his messenger that made the people reply with such obedience, nothing to do with a 'brutal regime'.
Reply

lolwatever
01-03-2007, 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Originally Posted by lolwatever
ps: infact, a perfectly rational athiest would steal, cheat and all that if he knwos he can escape, since that's indeed 'making the most of your life' if there was no accountability.
I'm still amazed at this belief you hold. You really think that I should be doing all these horrible things? You would be?
Will you for once refute the evidence i give for my reasons rather than make emotional yelps.

By the Economic law of opportunity cost, and the Cost-Benefit principle.

A rational athiest is likely to steal if the benefit of doing such an act is greater than the cost. A rational Muslim would never do that because the cost of doing such thing exceeds the immediate benefit.

Do you disagree? Then disprove that theory. That's what this thread is about.



There are all sorts of nasty selfish things I know for certain I could get away with. Yet I don't do them. Why? What do you figure is stopping me?
Because the cost > benefit. And that's becasue when it takes more effort to steal than it does to not steal, that behaviour is explained by maslow's hierarchy of need.

If you did need something, and if you where rational, you would steal if the benefit > cost.

Disagree? then disprove the theory, stop trying to say 'oh but im an angel i'd never do such thing'. As far as reality is concerned, you could be a theif, it's easy to deny, but we're talking psychology and economics, use facts and theories and laws to prove that a rational atheist or disbeleiver in Day of judgemetn wouldn't do such a thing.


Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This doesn't know "goodness". This shows obedience. And I actually wonder if its even the religion in play here, or instead fear of the brutal regime in power.
Cheese made a good reply.

Secondly, there wasn't even a polcie force in madinah! And the narration is by servants describing what their employers would do in the privacy of the home (e.g. spitting the alchohol that was already in their mouths).



Here you've got to be joking.

You announce that athiests have no incentive to be good absent punishment/reward dynamic, that athiests lack all morality and need to be controlled to behave, that they SHOULD (so apparently you would?

Quit Lying Where did i say athiests don't have any moral code?

All i said is that its likley for a rational athiest to be a theif if the benefit exceeds the cost as far as materialism is concerned.

I have proof for what i said, The economic law of opportunity cost and the Cost-Benefit principle.

Do you have even a single psychological theory to back your claism of innocence?


Seriously, would you? I've asked before and you don't seem to want to answer) cheat and steal if they think they can get away with it, and then you think you can sanitize this offensive statement by saying 'take care all the best' at the end of your post? And you think that also sanitizes all the lame attempts at insults you lace your posts with? You really that self absorbed?
It's unfortunate that truth hurts. I gave you economic explanation and psychological analysis of my examples. It's sad that you want to have a psychology discussion without reference to a single psychological fact!

pfft.

My post above was to show that religion can give you added incentive to be good, yes, and also give you incentive to be BAD. It inspires and rationalizes all sorts of evil in this world. Open your eyes and look around. You say that suicide bombers and the 9/11 terrorists and those guys who saw off peoples' heads are not muslims yet they certainly believe that they are. Just ask them. You are engaging in the no true scottsman fallacy.
I made a thorough reply to every single one of gthose accusations.
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post614628

It's soooooo typical of you to run away from facts and stick to baseless imaginitive explanations.

How about we take it step by step. Seeing your question is "wat are teh psychological effects of believing in the end fo time"

I'll start with:

"Are you happy with me using The economic Law of opportunity cost and the Cost-benefit principle to answr your question?"
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-03-2007, 03:51 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Don't even go there, it was nothing but pure love and devote to God and his messenger that made the people reply with such obedience, nothing to do with a 'brutal regime'.
As was said earlier, if this was so, no legal system would be required. It clearly is.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-03-2007, 04:28 AM
lolwhatever, you make it more and more difficult to have a discussion with you.

You throw out bold antagonistic claims and follow it with a bunch of empty rhetoric claiming to have presented "evidence" and then demand that it be refuted. Well you haven't presented anything to refute, so there really isn't anything to be said beyond what has already been mentioned....

The theories you are trying to borrow from completely unrelated fields simply do not apply here. They only would in a psychopathic mindset, which you seem to demand to be the rational atheistic view. I'm sorry, but it simply isn't. It is unfortunate that you can not see that.
Reply

lolwatever
01-03-2007, 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
lolwhatever, you make it more and more difficult to have a discussion with you.
Becasue you want to have a discussion about psychology without using anything to do with psychology :rollseyes



You throw out bold antagonistic claims and follow it with a bunch of empty rhetoric claiming to have presented "evidence" and then demand that it be refuted. Well you haven't presented anything to refute, so there really isn't anything to be said beyond what has already been mentioned....
lie, here's what i said in response to:

This dovetails nicely with the frequent theist claim against atheists that atheists have "nothing to live for" because they believe in no afterlife. But the reverse is actually true. To us atheists this life is all you get, so you'd better make the most of it.


Muslims believe that if you don't make the most of this life, you're facing some serious danger in the afterlife.

Also... the phrase "you'd better make teh most of it" can be looked at dfiferently by different athiests, an athiest who doesn't believe in accountability may very well interpret it to mean that it's a good idea to steal, cheat, make as much money (thru whatever means), as long as you enjoy life. (and who cares about the environment).

Whereas with Muslims, that sort of interpretation is 100% out of the equation. Because it means you're destined for trouble in the hereafter :uuh:

tc all the best

ps: infact, a perfectly rational athiest would steal, cheat and all that if he knwos he can escape, since that's indeed 'making the most of your life' if there was no accountability.

refute it. nothing to do with morality, it's to do with whether you'll follow what you claim to think is right when it conflicts with self interest.

I'm using the law of opportunity cost to make my claims. You are using nothing to do with psychology to back yours.

Economics is directly related to psychology, economics is simply the study of human behaviour as far as making decisions is concerned.

The theories you are trying to borrow from completely unrelated fields simply do not apply here.
Like what? Here's the laws i used, tell me how they're not related:

1. Law of Opportunity Cost.
2. Cost-Benefit Principle.
3. Maslow's Hierarchy of Human needs and wants.

All 3 are psychology based.



They only would in a psychopathic mindset,
So your saying all people who obey the Law of Opp Cost and the other 2 are psychopaths?!!?!?!? :offended:

which you seem to demand to be the rational atheistic view. I'm sorry, but it simply isn't. It is unfortunate that you can not see that.
Everyone else can, and you still refuse to answer my simple questions. The blue one in prev post.

Everything you said was baseless as far as economics and psychology is concerned! :uuh:
Reply

- Qatada -
01-03-2007, 01:16 PM
Pygo, its possible lolly is wrong... why not disprove him by rebutting the laws he's basing his arguments on, or show us that he is mis-using them.. and give us correct interpretation of the laws he used in relation to your question.



Peace. :)
Reply

Idris
01-03-2007, 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Hitler wasn't an atheist. He was some really off track variation of Christian. He was Roman Catholic by birth and by self-claim, but he didn't really follow the tenets of the Catholic church. He certainly did believe in his God though. In fact he stated numerous times that his eradication of the Jews was a holy act.

If you want to bring up wars and attrocities committed by atheists your better bets are Stalin and Mao. But note that neither of them did what they did in the NAME of atheism.
Sorry atheism looks to me like some shadow that has no base or foundation but takes what it like from laws and throw way what it don't like.

who was doing anything b4 in the name of atheism?
Wait... who is doing anything now in the name of atheism?
Or is this sometime started up today by you?:D
Reply

Fishman
01-03-2007, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
But note that neither of them did what they did in the NAME of atheism.
:sl:
Complete rubbish. Stalin destroyed Churches, Synagogues and Mosques, and Mao stripped Imams naked, paraded them around the town, threw paint at them, made them eat pork and drink alcohol, and finally forced them to renounce their religion and become workers on collective farms! I'm pretty sure he did similar things to Christians and Bhuddists too! You cannot possibly say that Stalin and Mao did not commit atrocities in the name of atheism.
:w:
Reply

Keltoi
01-03-2007, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Complete rubbish. Stalin destroyed Churches, Synagogues and Mosques, and Mao stripped Imams naked, paraded them around the town, threw paint at them, made them eat pork and drink alcohol, and finally forced them to renounce their religion and become workers on collective farms! I'm pretty sure he did similar things to Christians and Bhuddists too! You cannot possibly say that Stalin and Mao did not commit atrocities in the name of atheism.
:w:
It wasn't in the name of athiesm, although that was an important part of the Communist ideology. Religion and religious people were and are considered a threat by Communist leaders and thinkers. It is very hard to control people who believe in a higher power and reward after death.
Reply

Fishman
01-03-2007, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
It wasn't in the name of athiesm, although that was an important part of the Communist ideology. Religion and religious people were and are considered a threat by Communist leaders and thinkers. It is very hard to control people who believe in a higher power and reward after death.
:sl:
Exactly, they are trying to eliminate religion in the name of atheism.
:w:
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-03-2007, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
who was doing anything b4 in the name of atheism?
Wait... who is doing anything now in the name of atheism?
Or is this sometime started up today by you?:D
Yes you're right, I don't think anybody does anything in the name of atheism. That's because atheism isn't a belief system. It is simply the lack of a belief in Gods. Atheists do have other kinds of of belief systems though (as do theists), and of course that includes the belief systems Stalin and Mao acted under.
Reply

lolwatever
01-04-2007, 05:56 AM
why are we discussing what people do under watever banners :? I dont think anyoen is denying that athiests have an idea of differentiating between thigns in terms of wats righ tand wrong... we're just discussing whether they'll actually obey those instincts when ti conflicts with self interest due to lack of belief in DOJ.

Wasnt the question "whats the psychological effects of believing in the end of time?"

btw Pygo... might be an idea to read bro Fi's suggestion:

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Pygo, its possible lolly is wrong... why not disprove him by rebutting the laws he's basing his arguments on, or show us that he is mis-using them.. and give us correct interpretation of the laws he used in relation to your question.



Peace. :)
Reply

E'jaazi
01-04-2007, 08:51 AM
The hour is known only to Allah, but we are living in the beginning of the last days. Things we were told that would happen are now happening. So when you see the signs, now is your chance to repent and do good deeds. Save yourself from the fire!
Reply

Idris
01-04-2007, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Yes you're right, I don't think anybody does anything in the name of atheism. That's because atheism isn't a belief system. It is simply the lack of a belief in Gods. Atheists do have other kinds of of belief systems though (as do theists), and of course that includes the belief systems Stalin and Mao acted under.


Some Atheists ... assert that Atheism is not a religion but instead is the total absence of religion.... But this is like saying that "black," (which physicists define as the total absence of color) is not a color.... In common practice throughout the world, "black" is understood to be a color, despite the technical definition of the physicists. Likewise, "Atheism" is a religion, despite any technical definitions to the contrary. If black is a color, then Atheism is a religion.
—Rev. Bill McGinnis, The Religion of Atheism


:D You Atheists are aways unique
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-04-2007, 04:39 PM
And if atheism is a religion then bald is a hair colour.
Reply

lolwatever
01-04-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
And if atheism is a religion then bald is a hair colour.
lol you don't have anything to offer besides trying to lure people off topic now ha :exhausted
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-04-2007, 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by lolwatever
lol you don't have anything to offer besides trying to lure people off topic now ha :exhausted
I've said all there is to say. You've not presented anything that needs any further response, so we move on.

Meanwhile you may consider dropping the childish attitude.
Reply

- Qatada -
01-04-2007, 10:59 PM
Nah, i don't think thats fair pygo, if you don't have anything to say to a post - atleast take into consideration the hard work the other person puts in. That goes for anyone.



Peace.
Reply

lolwatever
01-05-2007, 01:08 AM
^ so tru :X

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I've said all there is to say. You've not presented anything that needs any further response, so we move on.

Meanwhile you may consider dropping the childish attitude.

:haha: well since u wanna flee... we'll make a conclusion of all the unanswered questions you've left... (and they're directly related to the topic mind you)

1. How about we take it step by step. Seeing your question is "wat are teh psychological effects of believing in the end fo time"

I'll start with:

"Are you happy with me using The economic Law of opportunity cost and the Cost-benefit principle to answr your question?"


2. Based on Cost-Benefit principle:

A rational athiest is likely to steal if the benefit of doing such an act is greater than the cost. A rational Muslim would never do that because the cost of doing such thing exceeds the immediate benefit.

Do you disagree? Then disprove that theory. That's what this thread is about.


3.How about we take it step by step. Seeing your question is "wat are teh psychological effects of believing in the end fo time"

I'll start with:

"Are you happy with me using The economic Law of opportunity cost and the Cost-benefit principle to answr your question?"


4.Muslims believe that if you don't make the most of this life, you're facing some serious danger in the afterlife.

Also... the phrase "you'd better make teh most of it" can be looked at dfiferently by different athiests, an athiest who doesn't believe in accountability may very well interpret it to mean that it's a good idea to steal, cheat, make as much money (thru whatever means), as long as you enjoy life. (and who cares about the environment). (infact, a rational athiest, is highly likely to do wats in his personal itnerest irrespectiv of social decorum and or moral code)

Whereas with Muslims, that sort of interpretation is 100% out of the equation. Because it means you're destined for trouble in the hereafter :uuh:

tc all the best

ps: infact, a perfectly rational athiest would steal, cheat and all that if he knwos he can escape, since that's indeed 'making the most of your life' if there was no accountability.

refute it.


5."Rational Humans are goverend by the cost-benefit principle, they will do what is in their personal interest in every situation"

Taking the theft scenario for example, assuming there was absoltuely no one watching and no way of getting caught,

This is a very possible situation: For an athiest, benefit of stealing 5kg of gold could possibly outweigh the cost of such an act. There's no accountabilty of cost in first place... so why not?

In case of a Muslim, the cost of stealing could be many years in hell fire :| By the cost-benefit principle, a rational Muslim would not steal, an athiest could.


Disprove it using the laws i'm basing it on, or on any other law to do with psychology or economics if you want! :rollseyes





-------------



Everyone feel free to read pygo's post... not a single one of those was refuted using any psych or economic principles.... :D

There's more unanswered questions thn tht btw... but they're similar.. so i put the main 5.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-05-2007, 02:55 PM
All you have done here is make some bold and offensive claims and named some unrelated theories without showing that they are in any way applicable.

I have attempted to show that religion does not inspire good, it inspires obedience. They are not the same thing. Obedience may enforce, inspire, and rationalize both socially constructive and destructive behaviour. I gave a few examples of the destructive and you attempeted to refute them, declaring success, but really only in your own mind. You tried to islolate Islam from other religious thought and you even used the no true scottsman fallacy to isolate it from danergous interpretations of itself.

You repeadtedly assume that people who do not believe in Gods have no reasons to do good or to go with social demands, neither of which is true. As I stated in the very first post following your rather bold claim, you would have to be a psychopath to lack any force on you to do good or what is in the better interest of the society.

This is why I have asked you multiple times if YOU would behave in such a deranged manner if you lost your faith. You refuse to answer this. And I suspect it is because you are aware of the forces that would stop you from such behaviour but just don't want to admit to it.

Your cold hard econimic rule as applied here would ONLY apply to somebody who looked at the world in a cold and hard selfish way, ie a psychopath.

And your claim btw wasn't as benign as "people will steal in desperate conditions" it was "atheists are LIKELY to be theives". Go reread it.

Moreover if you want to hit upon Maslow you should actually study that theory, not that it has ever been shown to apply to this situation. The theory is that there is a heirarchy of needs, and that people will do whatever must be done for food and shelter before considering other matters. That INCLUDES punishment/reward dynamic. And if you want to extend it to this situation (which I don't think it applies) it would include your imagined overseer (God).

Please, try to get over yourself. The childish attitude doesn't befit what folks here claim muslims are supposed to be.

As for Fi's supporting you, that is to be expected on a board with a particular ideology where you subscribe to it and the other does not. You'd find a similar experience but in reverse on a board like iidb.

And as for me "fleeing", its more like walking away shaking my head. You seem to need to make your "point". As unsuported and nonsensical as it is, I'm not really interested in debating it, becuase doing so has only caused us to spin around in circles, and frankly there are better uses of time.
Reply

lolwatever
01-05-2007, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
All you have done here is make some bold and offensive claims and named some unrelated theories without showing that they are in any way applicable.
n i left the door wiiiiiiide open 4 u to disprove them using even a shred of psychology or economics :D

I have attempted to show that religion does not inspire good, it inspires obedience. They are not the same thing. Obedience may enforce, inspire, and rationalize both socially constructive and destructive behaviour. I gave a few examples of the destructive and you attempeted to refute them, declaring success, but really only in your own mind. You tried to islolate Islam from other religious thought and you even used the no true scottsman fallacy to isolate it from danergous interpretations of itself.
So you agree that the end of times does have the effect of giving Muslims a greater incentive to be obedient to the rules compared to someone who doesn't believe in it?

So then what's your problem? :rollseyes

As for "religion doesn't inspire good", well Islam commands people to give charity, help the needy, be kind to women, seek knowledge, do our best and many other things.... only a psychopath would believe their not good. So prove they aren't good! :thumbs_up



You repeadtedly assume that people who do not believe in Gods have no reasons to do good or to go with social demands, neither of which is true.
Where did i say that? :?

Sis Malaikah hinted that u might hav misunderstood where i'm coming from... so i thought i'd make it clear:

hm maybe das wat i need to make clear.

natural inclination just means you know that something is rong or right, we know its wrong to swear for example, but a sum1 might still do that.

natural inclination doesnt mean we're angels.. it just means we know what we're doing is right or wrong.

so when u said:



is their conscience, fear of being caught, the police, jail, friends/family, reputation etc... your argument probably applies to the smaller things in general, and in rarer cases to bigger sins...

conscience: robbers ofcourse know wat they doing is wrong, but they still do it coz there's no incentive to not do it.

they dont steal coz someoen is watching, when that person is not watching, they are likely to do it.

das my point... judgement day gives Muslims a greater incentive compared to athiests.

and its not as rare as we think it is.... in the US rape related crime occurs on average every 90 seconds. Robbery is crazy, alchoholism is huge.

Compare it to Muslim coutnries filled with ppl who know that Allah is watching, rape is no where near the US and others, alchohol is zero.

Why? coz they dont really understand properly the idea of judgemetn day.... its not only athiests, same goes for anyone else who claism 2b religious but doesnt understand DOJ and accountability the way we do.

^ so its nothing to do with athiests nto havign a sense to figure that some stuff is wrong... it's to do with whether they'll abide by those instincts when it conflicts with self interest.


As I stated in the very first post following your rather bold claim, you would have to be a psychopath to lack any force on you to do good or what is in the better interest of the society.
According to what psychological/economic law are you basing your claim on?

Personally i agree only selfish people dont care about other ppl, but rational people who dont have incentive to do so are very likely to be like that.

This is why I have asked you multiple times if YOU would behave in such a deranged manner if you lost your faith. You refuse to answer this. And I suspect it is because you are aware of the forces that would stop you from such behaviour but just don't want to admit to it.
lie. I answered it so many times.

A rational athiest who doesnt believe in Day of Judgemetn is would do anything where benefit > cost. If you're rational you would do that too. And so would i or anyone else.

Your cold hard econimic rule as applied here would ONLY apply to somebody who looked at the world in a cold and hard selfish way, ie a psychopath.
Well It's your chance to win a nobel prize and prove that economic law false :D

You're being emotional/arrogant, not analytical. Ever realised that?

And your claim btw wasn't as benign as "people will steal in desperate conditions" it was "atheists are LIKELY to be theives". Go reread it.
i said 'rational athiests are likely to steal if benefit > cost' (e.g. if no one watching)

I based it on the Cost-Benefit principle.

You refuse to refute the laws.

Moreover if you want to hit upon Maslow you should actually study that theory, not that it has ever been shown to apply to this situation. The theory is that there is a heirarchy of needs, and that people will do whatever must be done for food and shelter before considering other matters. That INCLUDES punishment/reward dynamic. And if you want to extend it to this situation (which I don't think it applies) it would include your imagined overseer (God).
:haha: y u think i quoted it if i havnt studied it :rollseyes i've done bizness mgmnt so i have a v good idea of that theory as well as other models.

you're perfectly right, and notice that empathy kicks in only at the very top. Meaning that humans are goverened by the Cost-Benefit principle in majority of their lives.

And maslow's heirarchy only applies as a consequence of the opportunity-cost and cost-benefit principle.

Please, try to get over yourself. The childish attitude doesn't befit what folks here claim muslims are supposed to be.
I'd rather be childish than arrogant and self-conceited.

Time to pick up an economics/psychology book and either try look for some theories to backup your claims or try win a nobel prize by refuting the undisputed laws of Opportunity cost and Cost-Benefit.


As for Fi's supporting you, that is to be expected on a board with a particular ideology where you subscribe to it and the other does not. You'd find a similar experience but in reverse on a board like iidb.
Fi asked a simple question, just answer those 5 questions, one by one and atleast you'd save yourself the embaressment.

And as for me "fleeing", its more like walking away shaking my head. You seem to need to make your "point". As unsuported and nonsensical as it is, I'm not really interested in debating it, becuase doing so has only caused us to spin around in circles, and frankly there are better uses of time.
That begs the question, why did you even bother starting this thread. What sort of answr are you looking for? You could have saved yourself precious time by answering those 5 questions above or atleast pointing out how they have nothing to do with topic. :X
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-18-2017, 06:26 AM
  2. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-27-2009, 06:37 AM
  3. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-26-2009, 09:19 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-11-2008, 04:32 PM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!