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[al_faaris574]

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[Dawud_uk]

assalaamu alaykum,

a good story mashallah though i am not sure the author intended it be seen as such.

muslims should help one another, the secularists send their troops to help each other all the time and when muslims do the same we are called terrorists.

however i think it only the fit and able somali muslims who were practicing and living in the west returned to somalia the war would be over very shortly.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[SilentObserver]

No person that is not a Somalian has any right to fight there. If the UN sees this happening then they have a moral obligation to override whatever the wishes of the African Union and Somalian officials want, and step in and deal harshly with foreigners coming to fight.
It is unfortunate that the UN that is also foreigners would have to interfere, but it would be necessary. Foreigners coming to fight based solely on religious beliefs, have no right there.

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum,

I'm confused at something, I thought Somalia was like nearly 100% Muslim, so the Un backed other side of the goverment in Somalia are Muslims too??

Also

No person that is not a Somalian has any right to fight there.

Why would a person not have that right? What if they have a spouse who is Somalian? What if they have a best friend who is Somalian and in trouble?

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[Erundur]

Assalamu Aleykum,

I'm confused at something, I thought Somalia was like nearly 100% Muslim, so the Un backed other side of the goverment in Somalia are Muslims too??

Yes the other side is muslim too, but they are being supported by Ethiopia while the UIC wants more of the shariah based law system, while the interim government doesn't want that much of an "extreme" government. :confused:

[SilentObserver]

Why would a person not have that right? What if they have a spouse who is Somalian?

Oh for crying out loud. Is this a serious question?

What if they have a best friend who is Somalian and in trouble?

If you are not a Somalian, you have no business getting involved.Criminal charges should be layed against any person that does this. If they kill someone, it is murder. It is not their war.

[netprince]

No person that is not a Somalian has any right to fight there. If the UN sees this happening then they have a moral obligation to override whatever the wishes of the African Union and Somalian officials want, and step in and deal harshly with foreigners coming to fight.
It is unfortunate that the UN that is also foreigners would have to interfere, but it would be necessary. Foreigners coming to fight based solely on religious beliefs, have no right there.

Oh for crying out loud. Is this a serious question?
If you are not a Somalian, you have no business getting involved.Criminal charges should be layed against any person that does this. If they kill someone, it is murder. It is not their war.

According to your logic bro, should these same criminal charges be layed against the ethiopians who are entering somali territories and the americans who are supporting the ethiopians in this war?

[SilentObserver]

According to your logic bro, should these same criminal charges be layed against the ethiopians who are entering somali territories and the americans who are supporting the ethiopians in this war?

Any person that crosses the border without international support, yes. If the ethiopians are massing troops under the advisement of an international body, to deal with human rights issues brought about by the ICU takeover of the capital, and to avert a regional conflict, then I support this.
If it is done under the lone support of the US (which I doubt - please provide a link), then this is not something I support.

[netprince]

Any person that crosses the border without international support, yes. If the ethiopians are massing troops under the advisement of an international body, to deal with human rights issues brought about by the ICU takeover of the capital, and to avert a regional conflict, then I support this.
If it is done under the lone support of the US (which I doubt - please provide a link), then this is not something I support.

Avert regional conflict or to cause regional conflict? Somalia has been an anarchistic state for coming onto 2 decades. As soon as they start to rebuild there national identity and try to reestablish a semblance of order. Countries such as ethiopia, supported by the western nations invade them and you support them?

Its ok for any nation to go and invade muslim lands and kill innocent muslim civilians but as soon as they start fighting back and asking for help, they are terrorists?

With such views, no wonder we live in such a peaceful world!

[SilentObserver]

Avert regional conflict or to cause regional conflict? Somalia has been an anarchistic state for coming onto 2 decades. As soon as they start to rebuild there national identity and try to reestablish a semblance of order. Countries such as ethiopia, supported by the western nations invade them and you support them?

Its ok for any nation to go and invade muslim lands and kill innocent muslim civilians but as soon as they start fighting back and asking for help, they are terrorists?

With such views, no wonder we live in such a peaceful world!

Settle down there fella, no need to shout.

Its ok for any nation to go and invade muslim lands and kill innocent muslim civilians but as soon as they start fighting back and asking for help, they are terrorists?

When things get worse, and the situation threatens to become more of a regional conflict, yes. You are misleading with the information presented in the way that you have. The situation has not improved since the ICU captured Mogadishu, as you seem to want us to believe.

they start fighting back and asking for help

They? "They" that are asking for help, are not the voice of somalians. They are one side in a civil war that is quickly turning regional.

[netprince]

Settle down there fella, no need to shout. When things get worse, and the situation threatens to become more of a regional conflict, yes. You are misleading with the information presented in the way that you have.

The situation has not improved since the ICU captured Mogadishu, as you seem to want us to believe. .

The situation has clearly improved if the lawlessness has been irradicated, which the news here in the UK shows has happened. The situation has improved if normal people can go about rebuilding there lives, as has again been shown here in the news.

They? "They" that are asking for help, are not the voice of somalians. They are one side in a civil war that is quickly turning regional.

If they are not the voice of somalians, they themselves being somalians, then who is to be the voice of the somalians, the invading Ethiopians? or there sponsors the americans (before you ask for proof again, this was also on ITN news earlier this evening)? No maybe its the UN who will 'save' the day after having allowed the ethiopians to illegally invade a neighbouring country and having killed potentially thousands?


If it wasnt for external interferance it wouldnt even be a civil war. With the interferance of the external nations it not only becomes a full blown civil war it can easily escalate into a regional war. So instead of seeing a nation rebuilding, we will instead see a nation in an even worse state.

The only people who will benefit from such a situation are the people whose business is to create the weapons of death.

[SilentObserver]

If they are not the voice of somalians, they themselves being somalians, then who is to be the voice of the somalians, .

You again are misrepresenting the facts. They are some somalians in a wide conflict. There are many other somalians (who I agree are probably not happy with airstrikes from Ethiopia) who have been fighting against this group.

If it wasnt for external interferance it wouldnt even be a civil war. With the interferance of the external nations it not only becomes a full blown civil war it can easily escalate into a regional war. So instead of seeing a nation rebuilding, we will instead see a nation in an even worse state.

To a limited extent this may be true. The Ogaden war in the late seventies was at times a battle of all the interfering countries, seemingly not Somalia or Ethiopia. Things never got better following this, and it was no surprise to see northern Somalia declare independance, hence, civil war.

The only people who will benefit from such a situation are the people whose business is to create the weapons of death.

With this I agree 100%. If we can't agree on the details, at least we can agree on the outcome.

[netprince]

With this I agree 100%. If we can't agree on the details, at least we can agree on the outcome.

Dont think we will agree on the issue of external interferance so best to finish on the point we do agree on.

May Allah(SWT) guide us all on the path of peace and ease the suffering of people undergoing any tribulations.

[lavikor201]

"Muslims are brothers and help each other. We have a right to call our brothers and sisters to help us in this holy war,"

The closest fighters are in Sudan but are to busy killing blacks in Darfur. They are the closest but I doubt they are available currently because they are just so busy.

Why has Somalia not condemned them? But condemns watching FIFA matches.

[Dahir]

The closest fighters are in Sudan but are to busy killing blacks in Darfur. They are the closest but I doubt they are available currently because they are just so busy.

Why has Somalia not condemned them? But condemns watching FIFA matches.

Sudan in itself is at civil war; its not about religion or race, its about culture. Both sides in the conflict are Black and both sides have significant Muslim populations. Its about oil and cultural dominance (Nubian vs. Arab).

And secondly, Somali militia asked for the help of foreign fighters, including Sudanese ones, and did not make exclusions as to who can and can't help; although they'd have to be Muslim.

And Sudanese militia aren't the closest. Do not forget that Eritrea, Djibouti, Tanzania, Kenya, and Ethiopia itself can provide militia to the Islamic Courts; as Ethiopia is one-half Christian and dominated by the powerful Orthodox sect.

But I do agree, the Sudan does have the most disposable number of militia at hand.

[rav]

Sudan in itself is at civil war; its not about religion or race, its about culture. Both sides in the conflict are Black and both sides have significant Muslim populations. Its about oil and cultural dominance (Nubian vs. Arab).

And secondly, Somali militia asked for the help of foreign fighters, including Sudanese ones, and did not make exclusions as to who can and can't help; although they'd have to be Muslim.

And Sudanese militia aren't the closest. Do not forget that Eritrea, Djibouti, Tanzania, Kenya, and Ethiopia itself can provide militia to the Islamic Courts; as Ethiopia is one-half Christian and dominated by the powerful Orthodox sect.

But I do agree, the Sudan does have the most disposable number of militia at hand.

i am sure the sudanese arab militias would be willing to fight the ethiopians. i mean, they are willing to kill majority muslims who have the same ethnic backrounds as the ethiopians, and the ethiopians are majority christian.

[Dahir]

i am sure the sudanese arab militias would be willing to fight the ethiopians. i mean, they are willing to kill majority muslims who have the same ethnic backrounds as the ethiopians, and the ethiopians are majority christian.

That makes very little sense and provides little resistance to my comment, it might actually even support my comment.

Lets start from the beginning.

Both sides fighting in Sudan's conflict are Muslim or have significant Muslim populations, and share closer ethnic ties than with Ethiopians. Ethiopians share a close blood link with Somalis, whereas Sudanese people are closer to Maurs, Chadians, and Berbers.

Sudan's 'Arab' militia is not condoned by the Somali Islamic Courts and it would also prove extremely tough because they'd have to CROSS Ethiopia!

And just about every single foreign fighter is from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, and the gulf Arabian peninsula, all whom come through Kismayo's Aden Sea coastline, ruling it impossible for Sudanese militia to enter Somalia.

[rav]

Both sides fighting in Sudan's conflict are Muslim or have significant Muslim populations

i mentioned that.

and share closer ethnic ties than with Ethiopians.

not politically.

Ethiopians share a close blood link with Somalis, whereas Sudanese people are closer to Maurs, Chadians, and Berbers.

but the ethiopians and darfurians are clearly aligned politically just like sudanese militias and somalia militias are. i would be highly suprised if there was not a high turn out of sudanese to help somalia, many of whome have blood on their hands in darfur.

Sudan's 'Arab' militia is not condoned by the Somali Islamic Courts

i have had trouble finding where they have condemned the genocide. perhaps you could show me otherwise, i could very well be wrong.

and it would also prove extremely tough because they'd have to CROSS Ethiopia

incorrect. start in sudan, and cross through eritrea, and djibouti and you will get in somalia without ever having to cross through ethiopian soil.

And just about every single foreign fighter is from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, and the gulf Arabian peninsula,

really? i'm postive you do not have it down to an excat science. there is no true way to know if sudanese will respond and go or not.

all whom come through Kismayo's Aden Sea coastline, ruling it impossible for Sudanese militia to enter Somalia.

i suggest you look at the path through the map.

[M for Maliki]

Sudan in itself is at civil war; its not about religion or race, its about culture. Both sides in the conflict are Black and both sides have significant Muslim populations. Its about oil and cultural dominance (Nubian vs. Arab).

Bingo. Jazak, bro, you've covered the issue for me. My own shaykh, Muhammad Nur Abdullah, is Sudanese by origin, and visited sudan with some local and national politicians and aid workers sometime back. One of the people he traveled with reported her surprise that the fighting is almost completely being done by blacks. When she read the news reports she thought that they meant "arab" as in ethnic arab, not linguistic arab. The only conflict in Sudan is between the arabic speaking blacks and the non arabic speaking blacks.

And secondly, Somali militia asked for the help of foreign fighters, including Sudanese ones, and did not make exclusions as to who can and can't help; although they'd have to be Muslim.

And Sudanese militia aren't the closest. Do not forget that Eritrea, Djibouti, Tanzania, Kenya, and Ethiopia itself can provide militia to the Islamic Courts; as Ethiopia is one-half Christian and dominated by the powerful Orthodox sect.

But I do agree, the Sudan does have the most disposable number of militia at hand.

This goes way beyond who can draw up the most troops. The Somalis and Ethiopians (many of whom, ironically enough, are ethnic somalis) have hated eachother for a long time, and engaging in jihad is, in this instance, the wrong way to go about things. After over a decade of lawlessness in mogadishu, the UIC have finally restored some semblance of order. If the UIC played their cards right, they could force the Baidoa government into obsolesence by being the more productive and dominant of the two. Eventually, foreign governments (including the ethiopians) would be forced to recognize the UIC as the sole legitimate power inside Somalia.

[Skillganon]

The situation is as follows.

The interim goverment are composed of warlords backed by chiefly the U.S, the warlords that are answerable os seriouse human rights violation. I will not list the crime.
Once the Islamic court came into power, the warlords grouped and formed the so called interim goverment. They brought support from the U.S and accuse the Islamic goverment to belong to al-qaeda and running a terrorsit goverment (Bush Crap).

The U.S backed interim goverment being devotedly pushed, are trying to get foreign troops under the guise of the U.N and the political word "peace force" mainly consisting of African nations (let them do the dirty work). Let U.S handle the politics in the middle east. They wan't Democracy, Freedom. (being Ironic)

The issue is they (U.S backed warlords) have resorted to calling the Ethopian troops (just to add flavor let's call them their christian pillow friend) to be sent into somalia for whatever it serves the foreign purpose.

Frankly it the war won't do any good to somalia or the ethopian.

Do you see common traits mostly in the middle east?

[Dahir]

but the ethiopians and darfurians are clearly aligned politically just like sudanese militias and somalia militias are. i would be highly suprised if there was not a high turn out of sudanese to help somalia, many of whome have blood on their hands in darfur.

Where do you get off making these absurd accusations? Sudan's 'arab' militia has NO religious ties or affiliations whatsoever. They have not once been mentioned by the Somali Islamic Courts, NOT ONCE. There was ONE peace meeting in Khartoum, and that's in the South in Sudan, which is majority non-Arab.

i have had trouble finding where they have condemned the genocide. perhaps you could show me otherwise, i could very well be wrong.

I never said they condemned them, I said that they didn't condone them. And why would the Darfur genocide be on the mind of Somalis? Two nations, two different issues. Its not a concern. If you care so deeply about the genocide, incorporate it into another thread, because its irrelevant.

incorrect. start in sudan, and cross through eritrea, and djibouti and you will get in somalia without ever having to cross through ethiopian soil..

Look at your map again. They'd have to cross both Puntland and Baidoa; the garrison of the Transitional Gov't and the crossing points of the Ethiopian convoy. The Islamic Militia have HQ in Mogadishu and have foreign divisions stationed in Kismayo. That's going to be one grueling and impossible trek for your fictional Sudanese militia.

[Dawud_uk]

Oh for crying out loud. Is this a serious question?
If you are not a Somalian, you have no business getting involved.Criminal charges should be layed against any person that does this. If they kill someone, it is murder. It is not their war.

you mean like the etheopian troops that there are approx between 8000 - 20000 there now or the US and UK as well as other western troops in iraq and afghanistan?

[Dawud_uk]

assalaamu alaykum,

it seems to me that non muslims are on here trying to cause arguments and trouble between muslims, it would be better if the muslims ignored them and reported their posts for being off topic.

can we stick to the subject of somalia? if they want a discussion on anything else let them start their own thread.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[AvarAllahNoor]

Avert regional conflict or to cause regional conflict? Somalia has been an anarchistic state for coming onto 2 decades. As soon as they start to rebuild there national identity and try to reestablish a semblance of order. Countries such as ethiopia, supported by the western nations invade them and you support them?

Its ok for any nation to go and invade muslim lands and kill innocent muslim civilians but as soon as they start fighting back and asking for help, they are terrorists?

For two decades civil war has resulted in them killing themselves.

[netprince]

For two decades civil war has resulted in them killing themselves.

That was the point i was trying to make Avar, Somalia as a nation has been in a very bad state, with terrible lawlessness and anarchy. I dont know anything about this new UIC (islamic courts), dont know how they came about, how they gained so much power etc. However, what i have seen from news reports here in the UK is that they have erradicated the lawlessness and anarchy. The warlords have been subdued and/or chased away. A semblance of order has returned, people are once again trying to live normal lives. However, the external forces of ethiopia have decided to enter somalia and lend there forces to the existing anarchistic warlord coalitions to prevent stability returning.

One example i will give of changes that i heard.

Before this new UIC people came to power in Mogadishu there were upwards of 200 gunshot wounds per month. Since the UIC came to power this fgure has fallen to below a 10th of that (20 or so) a month.

To me thats a better state of affair for normal civilians.

For 20 years the warlords ruled in an anarchistic state, now the west is trying to ensure the somali's remain in an anarchistic state for the next 20 years.

[Dawud_uk]

That was the point i was trying to make Avar, Somalia as a nation has been in a very bad state, with terrible lawlessness and anarchy. I dont know anything about this new UIC (islamic courts), dont know how they came about, how they gained so much power etc. However, what i have seen from news reports here in the UK is that they have erradicated the lawlessness and anarchy. The warlords have been subdued and/or chased away. A semblance of order has returned, people are once again trying to live normal lives. However, the external forces of ethiopia have decided to enter somalia and lend there forces to the existing anarchistic warlord coalitions to prevent stability returning.

One example i will give of changes that i heard.

Before this new UIC people came to power in Mogadishu there were upwards of 200 gunshot wounds per month. Since the UIC came to power this fgure has fallen to below a 10th of that (20 or so) a month.

To me thats a better state of affair for normal civilians.

For 20 years the warlords ruled in an anarchistic state, now the west is trying to ensure the somali's remain in an anarchistic state for the next 20 years.

as it is at the moment mogadishu has less gunshot wounds and killings than many major US cities...

[ManchesterFolk]

as it is at the moment mogadishu has less gunshot wounds and killings than many major US cities...

What????????????

[Dawud_uk]

What????????????

seriously, check it out for yourself, the number of people shot and killed in US cities v the 20 woundings only in mogadishu,

ok that is likely to be seriously different if this war with etheopia gets any bigger and spreads but at the moment mogadishu is a lot safer than many places in the west with much much less crime.

[Kswiss]

1. People really need to stop hijacking this thread. If you want to talk about darfur do so in another thread.

[Kswiss]

i suggest you look at the path through the map.

I suggest you learn the geopolitical situation in Somalia before you post a map like that.

[Dawud_uk]

I suggest you learn the geopolitical situation in Somalia before you post a map like that.

please dont bite to their provoracation, such individuals are only trying to cause fitnah amongst the muslims here so dont respond to their threads or diversions, just report them for being off topic and then leave it at that.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[SilentObserver]

assalaamu alaykum,

it seems to me that non muslims are on here trying to cause arguments and trouble between muslims, it would be better if the muslims ignored them and reported their posts for being off topic.

can we stick to the subject of somalia? if they want a discussion on anything else let them start their own thread.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Who is doing this? (BTW - your post has been reported for being off-topic)

I suggest you learn the geopolitical situation in Somalia before you post a map like that.

Which is a suggestion to speak on the politics as per the lay of the land and the borders. So as you have suggested, would you please follow up with some info as to the geopolitical lay of the land in Somalia?

[rav]

I suggest you learn the geopolitical situation in Somalia before you post a map like that.

what about the situation? can you explain where the map is faulty?

[Waryaa]

This goes way beyond who can draw up the most troops. The Somalis and Ethiopians (many of whom, ironically enough, are ethnic somalis) have hated eachother for a long time...

You are factually wrong. The Somali lands (called Soomaali Galbeed by Somalis, meaning Western Somalia) are occupied by Ethiopia, given by then European colonial powers that divided Somalis into five parts. The Somalis that reside there never consider themselves to be so-called Ethiopian; they always are Somalis and are automatically guaranteed citizens of Somalia as well. They never participate in Ethiopian state affairs, the troops now attacking Somali towns aren't them, and in fact started waging guerilla warfare the day Ethiopians started occupying Somali lands. Also know the "border" is not internationally recognized, including the UN, thus being a provincial border. All official international maps show that, instead of long lines, the so-called "border" between Somalia and Ethiopia is dots.

When the Western media talks about the historical arch-rival and animosity between "Ethiopians" and Somalis, they are referring to the ruling class of Amhaars and Tigreys (which Somalis call Habash). Somalis do not even have a problem with Oromos (who are as well fighting to liberate their land called Oromia), Afars and other supressed ethnic groups that live there. Our historical enemy is Amhaar and Tigrey regimes, the advocators of occupation of Somali lands. Tigreys are now the ruling regime.

The Somali state engaged two wars supporting their occupied brethrens, one in newly upcoming Somali Republic without even a military force in 1964, and the other one, which Somalis beat quickly and recaptured all but two cities in 1977, until Soviet Union entered with thousands of Cuban soldiers and pilots with their jets, plus Yemeni, Libyan troops and other then communist regimes in the region that was forced by Soviets to help the Amhaars and Tigreys.