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aqonsi
12-26-2006, 03:27 PM
everywhere around the world the kufar r killing us, and having the upper hand over us, why is this the case if islam is the truth, and didn't allah promise us vicotry if we believe?

im very confused at why this is happening.
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- Qatada -
12-26-2006, 03:34 PM
:salamext:


If you look in islamic history, you'll notice that Allaah grants victory to those who strive hard to earn it. If you look at the lives of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) - you'll see that they were tortured at the beginning and put under heavy trials - all these trials were to strengthen their emaan [faith] so they would hold onto their islaam tighter, they love it more - and in return with this hardship - Allaah soon granted them victory. Why? Because now they were fit enough to apply islaam due to the fact that they had sacrificed so much for it already.


There are two stages within the life of Muhammad (peace be upon him) - the Makkan Period and the Medinan Period, we as muslims in the west are still in the Makkan period where we don't have an islamic state to make hijrah to, and we are humiliated. The reason for this humiliation is due to the fact that we turned away from the religion of Allaah, and now you can look in the islamic world and the muslims are turning back to Allaah, they are fighting back to defend their faith, the victory will come soon inshaa'Allaah, but this can only come through striving hard, being patient and placing our trust in Allaah.


Here's a top lecture by Imaam Anwar al-Awlaki:


Allah is preparing us for victory-Part I:
http://www.salaattime.com/downloads/...0Part%2001.mp3

Allah is preparing us for victory-Part II:
http://www.salaattime.com/downloads/...0Part%2002.mp3



You can find more of his lectures here inshaa'Allaah:

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...allaah-2.html?
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aqonsi
12-26-2006, 03:38 PM
i understand what you said brother but...
im saying why do we ever face defeat if we have believed?
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aqonsi
12-26-2006, 03:44 PM
doesn't the fact that we have believed in allah mean anything?
or do we have to get technology to help us.
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- Qatada -
12-26-2006, 03:45 PM
:salamext:


You mean when fighting in the battlefield? Do you mean that if we believers, we should gain victory all the time? If so, i think this aayat explains it well:


If a wound (and killing) has touched you, be sure a similar wound (and killing) has touched the others. And so are the days (good and not so good), We give to men by turns, that Allah may test those who believe, and that He may take martyrs from among you. And Allah likes not the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong*doers). [Qur'an 3:140]



(So do not become weak), because of what you suffered,



[وَلاَ تَحْزَنُوا وَأَنتُمُ الاٌّعْلَوْنَ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِين


َ]
(nor be sad, and you will be triumphant if you are indeed believers), for surely, the ultimate victory and triumph will be yours, O believers.



[إِن يَمْسَسْكُمْ قَرْحٌ فَقَدْ مَسَّ الْقَوْمَ قَرْحٌ مِّثْلُهُ]


(If a wound has touched you, be sure a similar wound has touched the others) [3:140].


Therefore, the Ayah says, if you suffered injuries and some of you were killed, then your enemies also suffered injuries and fatalities.
[وَتِلْكَ الاٌّيَّامُ نُدَاوِلُهَا بَيْنَ النَّاسِ


]
(And so are the days, that We give to men by turns) , and at times -- out of wisdom -- We allow the enemy to overcome you, although the final good end will be yours.



[وَلِيَعْلَمَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ]


(and that Allah may know (test) those who believe,) meaning, "So that We find out who would be patient while fighting the enemies,'' according to Ibn `Abbas.


[وَيَتَّخِذَ مِنكُمْ شُهَدَآءَ]


(and that He may take martyrs from among you) those who would be killed in Allah's cause and gladly offer their lives seeking His pleasure.


[وَاللَّهُ لاَ يُحِبُّ الظَّـلِمِينَوَلِيُمَحِّصَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ
]
(And Allah likes not the wrongdoers. And that Allah may test those who believe) [3:140,141], by forgiving them their sins if they have any. Otherwise, Allah will raise their grades according to the losses they suffered.


http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=9419
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aqonsi
12-26-2006, 03:48 PM
ok, then why does allah give victory to the Zalimun, if he doesn't like them?
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aqonsi
12-26-2006, 03:51 PM
so defeat is actually a good thing?
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glo
12-26-2006, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by aqonsi
everywhere around the world the kufar r killing us, and having the upper hand over us, why is this the case if islam is the truth, and didn't allah promise us vicotry if we believe?

im very confused at why this is happening.
The idea that God protects 'his people' is a very simplistic one - and one that's used by Christians too.

I find it very hurtful when people explain political situations and natural disasters as 'God's punishment for certain groups of people' - for example the tsumani and the earth quake in Pakistan, which largely affected Muslim communities, and Hurricane Kathrina, which largely affected Christian communities.

We have to ask ourselves, who do we think we are to assume to know God's ways and purposes??? :?
Thing is, God's plan and purpose is much more complex than we as humans can ever see and understand.
Bad things happen to good people, and vice versa.

We have to trust that we will receive our reward when God's timing is right - be that is this life or in the next. :statisfie

Peace, brother :)
Reply

- Qatada -
12-26-2006, 03:54 PM
:salamext:


Yep, defeat in islaam is more wide ranged compared to how others think it. Victory is also, for instance the tafsir of the verses i posted above is from surah aal imraan [3rd surah in the qur'an] and the scholars differ on if the battle was a victory or defeat, even though there was so much loss for the muslims in matters of men. Yet Allaah took martyrs from among them, and it is a like a gold mine of lessons for the whole ummah to reflect on.


If i get the time, i'll post up the different definitions of defeat and victory in islaam inshaa'Allaah :)
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Abdul-Raouf
12-26-2006, 03:55 PM
In islam there is a difference between a muslim and a mu'min....... If all the muslims are mu'min we wouldn have faced any difficulties... but that isnt the case...... Masha'allah
Reply

netprince
12-26-2006, 03:55 PM
This whole 'argument' was so eloquently put in Allama Iqbals Shikwa (complaint). When no-one could provide an answer to his complaint he himself had to provide the answer with Jawab-e-Shikwa. If you are an urdu reader then have a read of it.

Brother, the muslims have left the truth of islam, they have left the ideals of islam. People only pay 'lip service' to islam in this day, the truth rarely sinks into peoples hearts.
Reply

aqonsi
12-26-2006, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


Yep, defeat in islaam is more wide ranged compared to how others think it. Victory is also, for instance the tafsir of the verses i posted above is from surah aal imraan [3rd surah in the qur'an] and the scholars differ on if the battle was a victory or defeat, even though there was so much loss for the muslims in matters of men. Yet Allaah took martyrs from among them, and it is a like a gold mine of lessons for the whole ummah to reflect on.


If i get the time, i'll post up the different definitions of defeat and victory in islaam inshaa'Allaah :)
so brother are you telling me, that your brothers being killed your sisters being raped and their children killed is a good thing? :mmokay:

we are muslims, doesn't that mean anything?

and the way ur saying it, means that we can be the best muslims in th world, yet allah can give us defeat, then what is the point of being good muslims?
Reply

aqonsi
12-26-2006, 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by glo
The idea that God protects 'his people' is a very simplistic one - and one that's used by Christians too.

I find it very hurtful when people explain political situations and natural disasters as 'God's punishment for certain groups of people' - for example the tsumani and the earth quake in Pakistan, which largely affected Muslim communities, and Hurricane Kathrina, which largely affected Christian communities.

We have to ask ourselves, who do we think we are to assume to know God's ways and purposes??? :?
Thing is, God's plan and purpose is much more complex than we as humans can ever see and understand.
Bad things happen to good people, and vice versa.

We have to trust that we will receive our reward when God's timing is right - be that is this life or in the next. :statisfie

Peace, brother :)
i understand what you are saying, but god is with those who believe in him right?
Reply

aqonsi
12-26-2006, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Muzammil
In islam there is a difference between a muslim and a mu'min....... If all the muslims are mu'min we wouldn have faced any difficulties... but that isnt the case...... Masha'allah
who are you to judge the muslims?

just becuase you see the muslims in this situation you come to strange conclusions like that, without any proof.
Reply

aqonsi
12-26-2006, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by netprince
This whole 'argument' was so eloquently put in Allama Iqbals Shikwa (complaint). When no-one could provide an answer to his complaint he himself had to provide the answer with Jawab-e-Shikwa. If you are an urdu reader then have a read of it.

Brother, the muslims have left the truth of islam, they have left the ideals of islam. People only pay 'lip service' to islam in this day, the truth rarely sinks into peoples hearts.
with all due respect, who are you to judge the muslims like this?

we believe in allah, that is a big deal, we don't commit shirk!!

that makes us muslim.
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- Qatada -
12-26-2006, 04:04 PM
:salamext:


I never said that its a good thing, infact its the ummah's duty to protect the muslims being harmed. At the same time, if we reflect on the lives of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) - they even tasted defeat in the battle of uhud, yet they were the best people among mankind after the prophets.


Allaah has raised the levels of the martyrs/shuhadaah in paradise because they have sacrificed their wealth and their lives for His cause. What better sacrifice is there than that? To the enemy this seems like victory for them, yet its victory for the believer because He has been killed for the sake of Allaah.

Virtues of the Martyrs
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=9857


If the muslims had victory all the time, the disbelievers would even join the ranks of the muslims, while pretending to be muslims because they would feel that without a doubt the muslims will win. And therefore get a share of the wealth earned within the war.

This means there would be loads of hypocrites among the muslims, which would actually worsen the muslim situation - because hypocrites are a worser enemy than a person who clearly shows his disbelief and enmity towards the believers.


And Allaah Almighty knows best.
Reply

Abdul-Raouf
12-26-2006, 04:08 PM
OOPs sorry i meant in a different way.......dont misunderstand.. OMG
Reply

aqonsi
12-26-2006, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


I never said that its a good thing, infact its the ummah's duty to protect the muslims being harmed. At the same time, if we reflect on the lives of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) - they even tasted defeat in the battle of uhud, yet they were the best people among mankind after the prophets.


Allaah has raised the levels of the martyrs/shuhadaah in paradise because they have sacrificed their wealth and their lives for His cause. What better sacrifice is there than that? To the enemy this seems like victory for them, yet its victory for the believer because He has been killed for the sake of Allaah.

Virtues of the Martyrs
http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=3&tid=9857


If the muslims had victory all the time, the disbelievers would even join the ranks of the muslims, while pretending to be muslims because they would feel that without a doubt the muslims will win. And therefore get a share of the wealth earned within the war.

This means there would be loads of hypocrites among the muslims, which would actually worsen the muslim situation - because hypocrites are a worser enemy than a person who clearly shows his disbelief and enmity towards the believers.


And Allaah Almighty knows best.
so im confused.... deafeat is good yet muslims being harmed is bad?
Reply

- Qatada -
12-26-2006, 04:12 PM
:salamext:


Muslims being harmed is bad, being defeated fits under alot of categories which i said i would post later inshaa'Allaah.

Defeat & Victory have more meanings than what we have simply heard. And an example I gave was when a muslim who is killed for the sake of Allaah; while to the disbeliever it seems like victory, yet the believer gains victory because he has gained a high rank in paradise inshaa'Allaah.

I never said defeat was always a good thing, what i've stated is that victory and defeat have more meanings than what you may have simply heard of. Therefore what may seem as defeat to you may not be defeat according to Islaam.


And Allaah knows best.
Reply

waji
12-26-2006, 04:17 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by aqonsi
ok, then why does allah give victory to the Zalimun, if he doesn't like them?
Originally Posted by aqonsi
so defeat is actually a good thing?
remember Loosing Hope is Defeat

:w:
Reply

aqonsi
12-26-2006, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by wkas
:sl:





remember Loosing Hope is Defeat

:w:
i go by what i see, and i see the muslims in the lower hand and the kufar have the upper hand.

we r losing everywhere in the world.

and yet we r told allah gives us victory. but where? i don't see any victory?
Reply

- Qatada -
12-26-2006, 04:26 PM
:salamext:


Do you not see that Prophet Noah called the people to Islaam for 950 years?

Don't you see that it took Moses many years till the Children of Isra'eel were free?

Do you not see that the it took 12 years for the companions of the Messenger of Allaah to feel secure from any attacks from the enemies? Within these years they faced the battles of badr, uhud, ahzaab and more?

Do you not see how the Muslims in spain were given a kingdom, yet today you see no muslim in spain who can link their lineage back to the spains of that time? Why? Because lots of the spanish muslims turned away from the religion of Allaah.


Allaah will only bless us with victory when we show that we are fit enough to handle it.
Reply

waji
12-26-2006, 04:34 PM
:sl:

Real victory is not in this world that belongs to Akhirat
In this world we will only get victory if we follow the Quran and Sunnah in right way but we don't have to be desperate for it and second and most important thing if victory is ur Goal here then what Akhirat is about and why want Akhirat

:w:
Reply

rav
12-26-2006, 04:41 PM
Be sure of your final destination, in case you are going the wrong way
it is like that lion is moving foward on a walk way that is moving the other way, (like those ones in the airports.) :p
Reply

aqonsi
12-26-2006, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


Muslims being harmed is bad, being defeated fits under alot of categories which i said i would post later inshaa'Allaah.

Defeat & Victory have more meanings than what we have simply heard. And an example I gave was when a muslim who is killed for the sake of Allaah; while to the disbeliever it seems like victory, yet the believer gains victory because he has gained a high rank in paradise inshaa'Allaah.

I never said defeat was always a good thing, what i've stated is that victory and defeat have more meanings than what you may have simply heard of. Therefore what may seem as defeat to you may not be defeat according to Islaam.


And Allaah knows best.

did you make the thread yet?
Reply

Woodrow
12-26-2006, 09:14 PM
All too often we fail to see victory in what we call defeat. Some of the worse defeats can be our greatest victory. It all depends on how we stand up to them.

When we meet defeat with hate and not with controlled anger, we have lost much. We can turn the largest lose into a great victory simply by our actions after wards.

It is easy to remain strong and faithfull in the face of mighty victory. It takes much more to stay faithfull in the face of loss, hardships and condemnations.
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- Qatada -
12-26-2006, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by aqonsi
did you make the thread yet?

:salamext:


Download this book E-Book inshaa'Allaah:

http://download.yousendit.com/C571029E5387CEC5



You'll need adobe reader because its a pdf file - which you can download from here inshaa'Allaah:
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html



Open up the chapter:

VI. Sixth Constant: The definition of defeat 57

• First meaning of defeat: following the way of al Kuffar 58

• Second meaning of defeat: accepting al Kuffar’s Supremacy 59

o The difference between Mudahanaa and Mudaarah 61

• Third meaning of defeat: inclination towards al Kuffar 61

• Fourth meaning of defeat: obeying al Kuffar 62

• Fifth meaning of defeat: to loose hope 62
Thawaabit ‘ala darb al Ji-had (Constants on the Path of Ji-had)

• Sixth meaning of defeat: giving up the banner of Ji-had 63

• Seventh meaning of defeat: giving up hope on military victory 63

• Eighth meaning of defeat: fear of the enemy 63
Reply

sagal-islam
12-27-2006, 03:23 PM
salam i think before we were united and listen to our prophet what we need to day is that we should come togather and decide what is good for our religion thats my answer THANKZ IF I AM WRONG ALLAH forgive me in sha allah
Reply

ruhi
12-28-2006, 12:31 PM
salam..
have patience brother aqonsi.....Allah loves those who seek His help through patience & salah. if its a defeat in one way then its a victory on the other way......like since the september 11 attack more & more people are embracing Islam. people wants to know what Islam is all about. so the light of Islam is rising!! Allah did promise us victory & before that all that has been preordained by Allah shall come to pass wether we wanted it to or not.

"then whosoever wills let him believe, and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve"
(Qur'an 18:29)
Reply

aamirsaab
12-28-2006, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by aqonsi
i go by what i see, and i see the muslims in the lower hand and the kufar have the upper hand.
that's mainly because the "kafir" like to bomb the crap out of muslims and similarly like to fund their armies. It could also (just maybe, by chance) be because of the fact that the "kafir" take their education more seriously (overall) and so have the intelligence which acts as the upper hand?

we r losing everywhere in the world.
Depends on how you look at it.

and yet we r told allah gives us victory. but where? i don't see any victory?
You're alive, aren't you?

And to reiterrate bro fisab's points: victory and defeat have much more meaning than most of us realise - a victory isn't neccessarily instant, it can refer to effects that happen over time. Same applies to defeat. Think in long terms - has any real good come out of the defeats of muslims?
Reply

FBI
12-28-2006, 01:41 PM
:sl:

Mentally? nope.
Sadly the reason were losing physically is beacuse we're sinning, we have brought these problems on our selfs until we change our selfs allah won't lift the humiliation from our heads, mentally muslims are also losing, just look at iraq, we have entered into another state of Jahiliya.
Reply

Nawal89
12-28-2006, 01:45 PM
reading this thread makes me remember the hadeeth i read the other day..I dont remember the exact wording, but it goes along the lines of :" The time will come when the muslims will use riba (interest) and they will love this dunya, and leave jihad in the way of Allah, Allah will then send down a opression over them, and he will not remove it until the muslims return to practicing their religion"

Loads of people today claim their muslim yeah, But you dont see them doing much to prove it.
Reply

- Qatada -
12-28-2006, 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
reading this thread makes me remember the hadeeth i read the other day..I dont remember the exact wording, but it goes along the lines of :" The time will come when the muslims will use riba (interest) and they will love this dunya, and leave jihad in the way of Allah, Allah will then send down a opression over them, and he will not remove it until the muslims return to practicing their religion"

Loads of people today claim their muslim yeah, But you dont see them doing much to prove it.

:salamext:


This is the statement of the Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu ’alayhi wa sallam):

"If you indulge in ’eenah [a form of riba/interest] transactions when trading and you start to hold on to the tails of cattle and you are satisfied to concentrate only upon farming and you have abandoned Ji-haad in the Cause of Allaah, Allaah will cast a humiliation upon you which would never be lifted from you until you return to your Religion."

Related by Aboo Daawood (no. 3462), it was authenticated by the shaykh (hafidhahullaah) in as-Saheehah (no. 11).

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/taqleed/...ethodology.htm
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