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Nakisai
07-02-2005, 09:01 PM
In The Name Of Allah, Most Gracious and Most Merciful

As’salamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh



All praise is due to Allah: and blessings and peace be upon His messenger and servant, Prophet Mohammad (s) and upon his family and companions and whoever follows his guidance until the Day of Resurrection.



Is there a Creator ?!


We will answer by quoting a number of aayaat (verses) from the Book of Allaah (the Qur’aan – the scripture of Islam), then you can think to yourself about the matter and if the truth becomes clear to you, you will have no choice but to follow it. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“We created you, then why do you believe not?
Then tell Me (about) the human semen that you emit.
Is it you who create it (i.e., make this semen into a perfect human being), or are We the Creator?
We have decreed death unto you all, and We are not unable,
To transfigure you and create you in (forms) that you know not.
And indeed, you have already known the first form of creation (i.e., the creation of Adam). Why then do you not remember or take heed?
Tell Me! The seed that you sow in the ground.
Is it you that make it grow, or are We the Grower?
Were it Our Will, We could crumble it to dry pieces, and you would be regretful (or left in wonderment),
(Saying), ‘We are indeed Mughramoon (i.e., ruined, or lost the money without any profit, or punished by the loss of all that we spent for cultivation, etc.)!
‘Nay, but we are deprived!’
Tell Me! The water that you drink,
Is it you who cause it from the rainclouds to come down, or are We the Causer of it to come down?
If We willed, We verily could make it salt (and undrinkable). Why then do you not give thanks (to Allaah)?
Tell Me! The fire which you kindle,
Is it you who made the tree thereof to grow, or are We the Grower?
We have made it a Reminder (for the Hell-fire, in the Hereafter); and an article of use for the travellers (and all others, in this world).
The glorify with praises the Name of your Lord, the Most Great.
So I swear by mawaaqi’ (setting to the mansions, etc.) of the stars (they traverse),
And verily, that is indeed a great oath, if you but knew,
That (this) is indeed an honourable recital (the Noble Qur’aan).” [Quran 56:57-77]


Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm Belief. Or are with them the treasures of your Lord? Or are they the tyrants with the authority to do as they like?” [Quran 52:35-37]


“Verily, the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which is of use to mankind, and the water (rain) which Allaah sends down from the sky and makes the earth alive therewith after its death, and the moving (living) creatures of all kinds that He has scattered therein, and in the veering of winds and clouds which are held between the sky and the earth, are indeed aayaat (proofs, evidences, signs) for people of understanding.” [Quran 2:164]


“It is He Who sends down water (rain) from the sky, and with it We bring forth vegetation of all kinds, and out of it We bring forth green stalks, from which We bring forth thick clustered grain. And out of the date-palm and its spathe come forth clusters of dates hanging low and near, and gardens of grapes, olives and pomegranates, each similar (in kind) yet different (in variety and taste). Look at their fruits when they begin to bear, and the ripeness thereof. Verily! In these things there are signs for people who believe.” [Quran 6:99]


“And it is He Who sends the winds as heralds of glad tidings, going before His Mercy (rain), till when they have carried a heavy-laden cloud, We drive it to a land that is dead, then We cause water (rain) to descend thereon. Then We produce every kind of fruit therewith. Similarly, We shall raise up the dead, so that you may remember or take heed.” [Quran 7:57]


“Is not He (better than your gods) Who created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you water (rain) from the sky, whereby We cause to grow wonderful gardens full of beauty and delight? It is not in your ability to cause the growth of their trees. Is there any god with Allaah? Nay, but they are a people who ascribe equals (to Him)!” [Quran 27:60]


“He has created the heavens and the earth without any pillars that you see, and has set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you. And He has scattered therein moving (living) creatures of all kinds. And We send down water (rain) from the sky, and We cause (plants) of every goodly kind to grow therein.” [Quran 31:10]


And the two seas (kinds of water) are not alike, this fresh, sweet and pleasant to drink, and that saltish and bitter. And from them both you eat fresh tender meat (fish), and derive the ornaments that you wear. And you see the ships cleaving (the sea-water as they sail through it), that you may seek of His Bounty, and that you may give thanks.” [Quran 35:12]


And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water), one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.” [Quran 25:53]


This is a selection of clear aayaat that include the answer to your question. We invite you to join the community of the believers and to enter the religion of Islam which Allaah has chosen as the religion for all mankind. Peace be upon those who follow true Guidance.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-03-2005, 06:55 PM
:sl:
Thread moved.

We can discuss this here.

:w:
Reply

root
07-06-2005, 01:02 PM
The paradox is:

Who created the creator?
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
07-06-2005, 02:21 PM
Astaghfirulaa!


I am pleased Allah as my lord, Muhammad as a Messenger and Islam as my religion!
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Pinkrose
07-06-2005, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Jannah
Astaghfirulaa!


I am pleased Allah as my lord, Muhammad as a Messenger and Islam as my religion!
:sl:

I totally agree sis!! :applaud:

"M-U-S-L-I-M!!, I'M SO BLESSED TO BE WITH THEM!!" :wilted_ro

:w: :sister:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-06-2005, 06:29 PM
:sl:
I seek refuge in Allah.
Originally Posted by root
The paradox is:

Who created the creator?
That's an ancient one. And it's not a paradox at all, because why does the Creator need to be created?

God is the uncaused cause. As one theist writes:
But some may ask, "But who created God?" But the answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.

:w:
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root
07-06-2005, 07:02 PM
But some may ask, "But who created God?" But the answer is that by definition He is not created; He is eternal. He is the One who brought time, space, and matter into existence. Since the concept of causality deals with space, time, and matter, and since God is one who brought space, time, and matter into existence, the concept of causality does not apply to God since it is something related to the reality of space, time, and matter. Since God is before space, time, and matter, the issue of causality does not apply to Him.
Him, it her or just God......
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-06-2005, 07:08 PM
:sl:
God is genderless, but we tend to refer to God as "Him" because "it" normally refers to inaminate objects, which would be disrespectful.

:w:
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root
07-06-2005, 07:18 PM
God is genderless, but we tend to refer to God as "Him" because "it" normally refers to inaminate objects, which would be disrespectful.
I understand that. But why not "Her"!
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Umm Yoosuf
07-06-2005, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by root
I understand that. But why not "Her"!
Does it matter root?...............
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-06-2005, 07:39 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by root
I understand that. But why not "Her"!
Its the way the language evolves. "He" can refer to someone of unspecified gender, but "she" cannot (although now people use 'they' to refer to someone of unspecified gender). As the Oxford Dictionary writes:
Until recently, 'he' was used uncontroversially to refer to a person of unspecified sex, as in: every child needs to know that he is loved
Since this has been the traditional way to refer to God, any attempt to change it to 'she' would instantly imply the feminin gender, while 'they' would imply plurality. Thus, we leave it as 'He'.

:w:
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Brother_Mujahid
07-06-2005, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by root
The paradox is:

Who created the creator?
Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “People will keep on asking question until someone will say, ‘Allaah created the universe, but who created Allaah?’ Whoever encounters anything like that, let him say, ‘Amantu Billaah (I believe in Allaah).’”
With regard to the prior existence of Allaah, our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has told us about this, for example:

He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O Allaah, You are the First and there is nothing before You; O Allaah, You are the Last and there is nothing after You.” (Narrated by Muslim, 2713)

He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah existed when there was nothing apart from Him.” According to another report: “There was nothing before Him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari; the first report 3020; the second report 6982).

taken from here
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Bittersteel
07-07-2005, 07:00 AM
yeah kinda.root I forgot about this..,there was a reason but I forgot.......I hope somebody else knows about it...

generally we never find Her in a the scriptures(Torah,Bible,Quran)..correct me If I am wrong.....
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root
07-07-2005, 12:40 PM
Thanks Guys,

At least if I ever refer to God as "Him" I can rebuttle any sexist accusations that may come about.....

"Gee, women. Canne live with 'em canne live without 'em

;D
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Preacher
07-08-2005, 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by root
The paradox is:

Who created the creator?
And under what rule and/or principle a "Creator" must be created or must have another creator?

Let us use your logic and move forward accordingly. The PC, the Internet, the TV and everything (materialistic) around us was created by man, right? So now the question that begs for answer is that "who created" the creator (man)? (notice here, the evolution theory is shot down by defualt).

So, the answer of this question according to Muslims is that Allah created everything. A Creator does not need creation nor a creator, if He is not benefitting with his creation and/or does not need them. So, what Allah has created, He is not benefitting with that, neither he needs that all. The dependancy is creatures characterstics as, men created everything on the basis of needs and men uses it to live by making the life easy and comfortable.

When "man" in his limited capacity can create things that he does not need and does not use and/or will not use at all, why a Creator like Allah can't do such a thing? How you take this part of man's capicity as fact, but deny to the Creator (Allah), who has created everything.

By the way, how it is a "paradox?" You did not provide any supporting fact to establish your claim?
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root
07-09-2005, 11:00 AM
And under what rule and/or principle a "Creator" must be created or must have another creator?
to be created means that someone or something had to create it. But then, who created the creator and so on? Logically, this would mean there would be an infinite regression of creators and we would never be able to find the first, uncaused cause since, by definition (the questions says that "everything needs a creator") there wouldn't be any uncaused cause. This would mean that the sequence of creations is eternal. But, if it exists that there is an eternal regression of creators, then who created the infinite regression of creators? Remember, the question presupposes that all things need a creator

Let us use your logic and move forward accordingly. The PC, the Internet, the TV and everything (materialistic) around us was created by man, right? So now the question that begs for answer is that "who created" the creator (man)? (notice here, the evolution theory is shot down by defualt).
Not sure I understand your point here, OK so man created the PC & the Internet & TV. So you ask, if man was the creator of the PC then who created "Man". At which point you for some strange reason imply that man too required a creator? (Is this what you mean)

When "man" in his limited capacity can create things that he does not need and does not use and/or will not use at all, why a Creator like Allah can't do such a thing? How you take this part of man's capicity as fact, but deny to the Creator (Allah), who has created everything.
OK, let's chage the train of thought slightly. Instead of "all things need a creator." let's suggest "Everything that has come into existence, was brought into existence by something else." It still leaves the paradox that God needed to come into existence to create his creation,
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-09-2005, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by root
OK, let's chage the train of thought slightly. Instead of "all things need a creator." let's suggest "Everything that has come into existence, was brought into existence by something else."
A good suggestion!
It still leaves the paradox that God needed to come into existence to create his creation,
God never came into existence! If He did, He wouldn't be God!

:w:
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Bittersteel
07-09-2005, 05:24 PM
exactly.We will know everything someday inshallah.

off topic: I heard that Mohammad(PBUH) was offered the most beautiful women if he would just shut ,isn't that true?
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Muezzin
07-09-2005, 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by root
OK, let's chage the train of thought slightly. Instead of "all things need a creator." let's suggest "Everything that has come into existence, was brought into existence by something else." It still leaves the paradox that God needed to come into existence to create his creation,
God is existence. The theological IAM.
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junna1
07-10-2005, 11:27 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
A good suggestion!

God never came into existence! If He did, He wouldn't be God!

:w:
:sl:

EXACTLY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ROOT?

:w:
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Abubakar
07-11-2005, 08:13 AM
:sl:

Just to return to the original topic.

If you ask an Athiest if a car is designed and manufactured he would say yes.

If you asked an Atheist if this beautiful and wonderful world that we live in is designed and made he says no its just coincidence!!

I sometimes think that you need more faith to be an Athiest than to be a Muslim!

Peace
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Khattab
07-11-2005, 11:29 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The Makkan idolaters offered Prophet Muhammad saws all the bounties of the world if he would stop preaching his message, but he refused. Such was his piety and sincerity to God,
He (SWH) wasnt just offered one woman he was offered any of them he desired, and to be the ruler of mekkah. Muhammed (SWH) was the truthful and did not desire and chase dunya, he established the religion of truth and did what was commanded of him by the Almighty.

:w:
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root
07-12-2005, 11:07 AM
If you ask an Athiest if a car is designed and manufactured he would say yes.

If you asked an Atheist if this beautiful and wonderful world that we live in is designed and made he says no its just coincidence!!
I think the atheist who gave such a response would be hard to find. I would probably show you the first car ever manufactured then show you the very latest cutting edge car and ask you to show me where like our "Buetiful World" could he show me the creator evolving his creation like the car evolved?
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Muezzin
07-12-2005, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by root
I think the atheist who gave such a response would be hard to find. I would probably show you the first car ever manufactured then show you the very latest cutting edge car and ask you to show me where like our "Buetiful World" could he show me the creator evolving his creation like the car evolved?
You spelt 'beautiful' wrong.

And that is all I shall say since I am feeling particularly pedantic today :)
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Bittersteel
07-12-2005, 12:38 PM
I would probably show you the first car ever manufactured then show you the very latest cutting edge car and ask you to show me where like our "Buetiful World" could he show me the creator evolving his creation like the car evolved?
the car didn't evolve itself.Someone caused it to evolve.
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root
07-12-2005, 01:31 PM
the car didn't evolve itself.Someone caused it to evolve.
Your right.

The evolution of a car "by progressive improvement" does share a similarity with evolution. Slow and progressive improvement within it's environment.

"I mean it's not as if a car suddenly appeared pre-built in perfect order and with the engine running........."

You spelt 'beautiful' wrong.

And that is all I shall say since I am feeling particularly pedantic today
Your right, I did.
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Bittersteel
07-12-2005, 01:47 PM
"I mean it's not as if a car suddenly appeared pre-built in perfect order and with the engine running........."
Men first created the car then evolved it.
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root
07-12-2005, 01:54 PM
Men first created the car then evolved it.
I agree................

Am I missing the point?
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Mr. Baldy
07-12-2005, 01:56 PM
aslaam alkyum,

how can you say that there is no creator?

no dont answer that, i think i know why, becsaue you cant concieve the idea of an enternal being that is perfect, becssue the world is is not erternal, nor is it perfect. Well dont try to concieve that, becsue trying to concieve that, is like trying to put the atlantic ocean in to a cup, its not goignt o happen.

wa alkyum aslaam
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root
07-12-2005, 02:02 PM
no dont answer that, i think i know why,
OK, I won't answer that. You can carry on living in ignorance of what you think other people think rarther than know what other people think!

Root
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Mr. Baldy
07-12-2005, 02:05 PM
aslaam alkyum,

thanks for the invitaion.

wa alkykum aslaam
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Bittersteel
07-12-2005, 03:21 PM
Am I missing the point?
my point is there is a creator.
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Preacher
07-12-2005, 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Aziz
the car didn't evolve itself.Someone caused it to evolve.
:sl:
Perpahs, I am missing something here, but can you explain that how you can cause something to "evolve" that was created from scratch to end, not to mention it happens for each car when it is built? That is why we use words like "built", "manufacturing" and "car builder/car manufacturer" etc.


If man evolved than why man procreates?

:w:
Preacher
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Bittersteel
07-12-2005, 06:04 PM
oh I get the point.

I meant that the model of the car evolved.the idea evolved.well could have made a mistake like I always do.
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root
07-12-2005, 06:22 PM
If man evolved than why man procreates?
Don't see your point?
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Preacher
07-12-2005, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Preacher
If man evolved than why man procreates?


Response by "root."

Originally Posted by root
Don't see your point?
How convenient and how selective?

Regards
Preacher
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Muezzin
07-12-2005, 08:05 PM
Preacher, I don't see your point either.

Evolution and procreation are two different things. Evolution is the gradual adaptation of a species to its environment. Procreation is the reproduction of the individual members of a species.

Of course I believe in Allah, I'm just finding difficulty seeing your point here.

Oh, wait... I kinda see it now, but it's still sort of strange. Procreation still doesn't mean man wouldn't evolve - indeed, adaptations take a few generations to manifest themselves. So while evolution and procreation are two different procesesses, both are interlinked.

(important note: I'm not talking about evolution as in the theory of man evolving from apes, but evolution in the sense of gradual adaptation e.g. the fact that we no longer use our appendix)
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Abubakar
07-12-2005, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by root
I agree................

Am I missing the point?

:sl:

Yes, that is why you are an Aethiest.

:w:
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Muezzin
07-13-2005, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by Abubakar
:sl:

Yes, that is why you are an Aethiest.

:w:
I don't fully understand Preacher's point either. Does that make me an atheist?
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YoussefinOrange
07-18-2005, 07:55 PM
And who can make the deaf hear, but Allah (SWT)? He guides whom He pleases, and leaves in error whom he pleases.

Assalaamu alaikum
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Muezzin
07-18-2005, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by YoussefinOrange
And who can make the deaf hear, but Allah (SWT)? He guides whom He pleases, and leaves in error whom he pleases.

Assalaamu alaikum
So true.
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YoussefinOrange
07-18-2005, 08:17 PM
But I am missing some key points in many arguments.

One thing I see a lot from everyone is the phrase "man creates ____" or man created ____.

Since when? Man can't create anything. In fact, we can barely preserve what we already have of natural resources, the source of all our material things.

Secondly, there is no need for any of us to get worked up over this subject. Don't call eachother names... if we are going to get any information exchanged here, keep emotions away please.

I am so happy to be a Muslim because I have the peace of mind that comes with having access to a manifest proof from Allah (SWT) through the Qur'an.

The only reason anyone would not be Muslim is if he did not know enough about Islam, and that is the fault of only that person, and only they will accept the consequences of their denial.

'Authu billahi min sharri shaytan al rajime
If you don't believe in Allah, and the Last day, and his Messengers, then wait. Surely we too are also waiting.

Salaamu Alaikum
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root
07-20-2005, 11:34 AM
The only reason anyone would not be Muslim is if he did not know enough about Islam, and that is the fault of only that person, and only they will accept the consequences of their denial.
Quite an arrogant view you have thier
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Muezzin
07-20-2005, 11:44 AM
Originally Posted by root
Quite an arrogant view you have thier
Quite a strange form of spelling you have there ;)
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Muezzin
07-21-2005, 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by root
The very beginning being what exactly? To make the comparison you are making is at odd's with what you are saying!
How so?

Ansar has recently said that creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive necessarily. There has to be a starting point for the evolution, and that starting point was created. It did not simply come into being of its own accord.
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root
07-21-2005, 11:50 AM
How so?

Ansar has recently said that creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive necessarily. There has to be a starting point for the evolution, and that starting point was created. It did not simply come into being of its own accord.
But your premis then is to accept that evolution of man is real, and that we evolved into man and thus man was not created. Or man evolved in his form following a "blue print" of creationism.
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Muezzin
07-21-2005, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by root
But your premis then is to accept that evolution of man is real, and that we evolved into man
So? This thread topic is about if there is a Creator, not if Darwinian theory is correct.

and thus man was not created.
No... As was said earlier, evolution and creation are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Or man evolved in his form following a "blue print" of creationism.
And why not? Following on from Muhammad's point about evolution on a microscopic level, the genetic material needs an origin of some sort. Things do not simply appear out of nothing. Something must have caused them to exist. That something must have been a Creator.

If you think not, then we are extraordinarily lucky creatures to have survived this long.
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Bittersteel
07-21-2005, 07:41 PM
I don't mean to spam but.....

Allah didn't create man through evolution but man was a separate creation right?
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root
07-27-2005, 11:49 AM
Allah didn't create man through evolution but man was a separate creation right?
From what we know of ancestory evolution. Their is nothing at all to remotely support man as being "unique" or part of a seperate entity. Though I personally have a hunch that the origin of life is not even on this planet but in the cold vacuum of space itself.
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Muezzin
07-27-2005, 11:51 AM
Originally Posted by root
From what we know of ancestory evolution. Their is nothing at all to remotely support man as being "unique" or part of a seperate entity. Though I personally have a hunch that the origin of life is not even on this planet but in the cold vacuum of space itself.
That notion is so cool. It makes us all feel like a population of Supermen.

Except instead of Kryptonite, we have arsenic.

Or garlic if you're Michael Howard.
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Bittersteel
07-27-2005, 01:09 PM
From what we know of ancestory evolution. Their is nothing at all to remotely support man as being "unique" or part of a seperate entity. Though I personally have a hunch that the origin of life is not even on this planet but in the cold vacuum of space itself.
Ansar made a statement about that God could have created men through evolution and the question was directed to him and I think he already have answered that.
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root
07-27-2005, 07:39 PM
Ah, I see.

Well, we could say "man created God"!!!!!!

But deliberate dishonesty aside, there's still a difference in mindset between science and more genuine kinds of religion. Differing definitions of 'faith' and 'truth' are big parts of it.

In a religious context, 'faith' and 'truth' are almost synonyms. And faith is automatically good. If an idea is considered truth in your religion, and you don't have faith in it, that's a reflection on your failure as a faith-holder rather than the idea's failure to be true. If you don't have enough faith on a given subject, you should work harder at it.

In the sciences, that kind of faith is not a virtue; it's a personal failing. Imagine a bridge engineer being invited to "have more faith" that a design has enough steel in it to keep his bridge from collapsing. His faith has nothing to do with it; either the bridge stays up, or it falls down. Faith in the sense of 'letting yourself be persuaded without adequate evidence' is morally wrong in that context. If the bridge engineer does so, and people die in the collapse, he's murdered them.

Scientists, or the good ones, feel the same way about their theories that good engineers feel about their bridges. It's their job to make them right, not to convince themselves for their own emotional comfort that they're already right, pretty much, close enough.

If a scientist says "I have faith this theory is true," he doesn't or shouldn't mean it in the religious sense of "I commit myself to this no matter what the evidence may say, forever. Don't try to change my mind, here I stand."

Instead, he means or ought to mean "I've tested this theory, and I've seen the results of other people's tests, and I'm as sure as I can possibly get on the available evidence that this theory is as close to right as we can get. Unless something else really radical turns up. Keep me posted."

Which, incidentally, is one reason why scientists in their professional personas are very sparing with words like 'faith' and 'truth'. Just as the bridge engineer is supposed to know exact breaking strains rather than "probably close enough," scientists are expected to be able to state exactly how confident they are in a given proposition and why they feel that confidence. Faith and truth imply absolutes, which in a scientific context implies glossing over small details that might contradict those absolutes.
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Bittersteel
07-27-2005, 07:58 PM
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

[39:18] They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom GOD has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.
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root
07-27-2005, 08:18 PM
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
As a small point to what you state. How do you verify for yourself the splitting of the moon?
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Bittersteel
07-27-2005, 08:48 PM
well Muezzin said once "There is no evidence I dreamt about pancakes last night but it stll happened".

You can't scientifically prove a miracle or a something like a spiritual happening.

Ansd I ask a lot of guys especially Ansar.as i believe in the Quran I accept it.Not blindly though.There was a thread about this in basics of Islam where I asked questions.
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