War In Africa Against Islam, Backed By Usa

[ocacia]

Rememeber Somalia has a right to have an Islamic court that is their affair it is 100% Muslim. Further more they final have more peace with the new courts than ever before. People use to all need guns and bodyguards--NO MORE! thats my 2cents on Somalia, Ethiopia kisses to everything America says, they offered themselves to USA to launch an attack on Iraq, What did iraq do to Ethiopia? That governement is worst than the Derg. They are a wicked rule that starve their people and the politicians send their children to US schools, and that country is so poor because of them. All kinds of "Anti-terror" checks at the airport, all data goes back to America.


ETHIOPIA IN THE POCKET OF AMERICA
With all the famine and starvation, deforestation and poverty in one of the world poorest countries, we find the government has the funds to wage a pointless war on both of its borders. Just what Africa needs--another war. We can blame the West who clearly are at the root of it but don’t we have a brain of our own? Ethiopia has supported every single war campaign from Afghanistan to Iraq II. It is beyond logic that the leadership of this country could have a deal with the West so sweet that it worth killing its own people. Destroying lives as opposed to spending money on roads, diversifying crops, housing the Borque but instead it is spent on a war against another poor nation. Sympathy for Ethiopia slips, but we must remember something, it is not Ethiopian people fighting the war it is the dictatorship under the rouse of a democratic government that is doing that. First came the denial, that it had aggressive intentions on Somalia, the world was left to believe Somali's Islamic government was "paranoid"--then came the attack! Warmongers always have excuses; offensive war gets a coat of paint and becomes "protecting sovereignty." The war on Islam has to be seen for what it is. If America cant get political support to drop bombs on Somalia well then send in Ethiopia. We need to remember without bias the reforms the Islamic courts have brought to Somalia, but reforms and Peace have never been part of the solution for Africa. Even the British Media has commented on the progress and peace these Islamic courts have brought to Somalia.

[Islamicboy]

Muslims are turning a blind eye to this matter. This is an open declaration of crusades agiasnt the muslims. American government is filled with liars their president the top liar. Who himself said islam was not the enemy yet he cant stand shariah. May Allah S.W.T. give victory to the mujahideen and guide the enemies of islam or destory them. Ameen

[ocacia]

i pray for peace, but Malcolm X did say "be peaceful with those who are peaceful with you"
I hate war but Somalia needs help with this threat to its soverignity and clearly America funded the war, but they wouldnt fund ending poverty in Ethiopia, clearly The So-called Muslim nations are just as corrupt. And may be us to because if its Muslim Africans it tends not to draw much attention

[Islamicboy]

The Geneocide in Gujarat, India was completely ignored. Chencny is always ignored Kashmir. Its not just africa even though i did realize that many muslims care much more if Ethopia was invading any arab country. as if arabs were superior to us non arab muslims.

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[ocacia]

true but you know what as long as we still get to keep our US passports and eat at mcdonals and watch Jews in Hollywood why should we get involved. Let God take care of it, Islam means peace. To add the Jews in USA did the same thing during the Holocaust i heard. We are a nation of sick people. Do you know they (our leadership mosque and otherwise) actively curb any vocalization about global oppression. I was in a mosque they dont even mention it! We are wrong for wanting to fight back. We are terrorist for wanting to protect our homes. But we as an ummah have are too selfish we dont stand up or unify. Where is Saudi in this crisis, why didnt they help palestine? I am talking about the governement not the people. I see more White people against the war and more vocal against this madness than Muslims. Even HT they dont let come in the mosque.

[Islamicboy]

Our problem is there is no khilafah. We have bunch of scholars telling compelety different things. Such as there are scholars that call mujahideen of Iraq Khawaraji which doesnt make sense. Since the Iraqi mujahideen are trying to kill Non muslims not muslims. The same scholars have said taliban was too extreme yet they dont speak out agiasnt there own government because it will lead to blood shed. Hmm so following islamic law has become extreme yet not follow Allahs law and working with allahs enemy is good we shouldnt speak out agiasnt these government since it will lead too bloodshed. All the truthful scholars are being put behind bars or not getting the chance of telling the truth to the ummah. Iraq was a very secular nation until the war came to them now they are fighting for shariah. Jihad has awaken the youths conscience but now most of them either become takfiri or been confused. Scholars need to be more clear and tell the truth even if it means there life in on the line. Inshallah soon we will get the truthful scholars until then we should pratice islam and try to avoid the scholars that confuse muslims. Ignorance will prevail at the end of times.

[Bittersteel]

don't always blame the west.Washington just supported not encouraged I think.

[Islamicboy]

American government has given complete support to Ethopia. Before Ethopia even considered it was america that was planing to deal with Islamist government. Then all of a sudden Ethopia comes with all the planes and everything and attacks Somali for no reason. No one is blaming west i am saying Ethopia as much responsible for the deads as American government.

[Woodrow]

From what I understand the Aircraft Ethiopia is using is all soviet made aircraft.

In 1999, the ERAF bought ten MiG-29's after the Ethiopian Air Force bought Su-27's. The MiG-29's are probably flown and maintained by both Eritean, Russian and Ukrainian pilots and technician. In 2000 the ERAF bought eight Su-25's from Georgia, and six more MiG-29's from Moldavia. Unconfirmed reports mention that at least two MiG-29's were brought down by Ethiopian Flankers.

Nowadays, Eritrea has received 6 Su-27 Flankers themselves. Other recent additions to the ERAF are four Mi-17's.

The MiG-21's which were taken from the Ethiopian Air Force are believed to be no longer in service. The main airbase is Asmara AP, which is combined civil/military. At this moment, peace-keepers from different countries try to maintain the fragile peace over the disputed border. Other bases are Barentu, Mitsiwa and Aseb. Serials are sometimes worn with 'ERAF'in front of the digits, but not always.

Source: http://www.scramble.nl/er.htm

The US does not want the Soviets to get a foothold in the Mediterranian regions and the Soviets want the US out. The mediterranian is filled with US warships all with missiles aimed at Soviet targets. A russina presence would greatly hinder a US strike back at the Soviets if the soviets ever launch a nuclear attack against the US. The Mediterranian fleet is one big factor the US depends on to keep the Soiets at bay.

[Bittersteel]

yep.all Christian states seem to be enthusiaistic about calling Islamists as terrorists and fight them.

[Woodrow]

yep.all Christian states seem to be enthusiaistic about calling Islamists as terrorists and fight them.

The Official religion of the Soviet States is still Athism.

Although the cold war is over for the most part and the Russian Empire has collapsed with the fall of communism, there is still tension between the US and the Soviet States.

[vpb]

Surah Al-Baqara

11.And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.
12. Are not they indeed the mischief-makers? But they perceive not.

It's common to have these type of situations, Allah swt told us what kind of people we're dealing with.

[Dawud_uk]

don't always blame the west.Washington just supported not encouraged I think.

if a true muslim govt came to power in bangladesh and then US just said to india it was ok to invade bangladesh and occupy it, but didnt actually provide planes or troops would you say they have wronged your nation or not?

[Trumble]

American government has given complete support to Ethopia. Before Ethopia even considered it was america that was planing to deal with Islamist government. Then all of a sudden Ethopia comes with all the planes and everything and attacks Somali for no reason. No one is blaming west i am saying Ethopia as much responsible for the deads as American government.

Sooner or later some parts of the the islamic world is going to have to stop blindly blaming America for everything (even if they are to blame for a lot of things!)

It is bad news that Ethiopia got involved as a lot of civilians will get killed, but it was not for "no reason". Ethopian troops were there at the request of the provisional government (whether you approve of it or not) and were attacked by ICU forces trying to expand their territory into that still held by that faction. In other words the ICU was dumb enough to give the Ethiopians just the excuse they needed, and judging from the current rate of progress by Ethiopian troops they will pay a heavy price for that stupidity. The Ethiopian action has been "backed" (i.e in words only) by the African Union, as well.

[Dawud_uk]

Sooner or later some parts of the the islamic world is going to have to stop blindly blaming America for everything (even if they are to blame for a lot of things!)

It is bad news that Ethiopia got involved as a lot of civilians will get killed, but it was not for "no reason". Ethopian troops were there at the request of the provisional government (whether you approve of it or not) and were attacked by ICU forces trying to expand their territory into that still held by that faction. In other words the ICU was dumb enough to give the Ethiopians just the excuse they needed, and judging from the current rate of progress by Ethiopian troops they will pay a heavy price for that stupidity. The Ethiopian action has been "backed" (i.e in words only) by the African Union, as well.

if someone is stood on the sideline telling someone else to fight, and backing them up with trade, intelligence etc then when i am finished with the first guy then guess what?

i am gonna pretty cheesed off with his backers, and they are definetely off my eid card list to say the least and i might even go further than that.

[ocacia]

It is clearly a war on Islam and still some of the people who call themseleves Muslim in the West tell us not to say that. Call it what it is. The democracy on offer is simple. Decide if you want to be eaten by the wolf or the fox, you can select anything you want from these two options. We are not free as soverign nations to select Islam as our system, lets face it. Somalia did it look what happened, Iran did it look what happened, Sudan tried then came Darfur, we need to wake up and unite on the idea that Islam.

African Union is a puppet of the US what have they done for Africa? Did they stop rwanda, Darfur? the headquarters for the AU are in the same Ethiopia. Trust me Ethiopian people dont support this war, why would they 40% are Muslim.

[ocacia]

"Gedi said foreign Muslim fighters had recently poured into Somalia, which he said confirmed the government's accusations that the Islamic courts movement was led by terrorists."

By the way Gedi is suppose to be a Muslim, But to defend another Muslim is to be a terrorist am i wrong?

[Woodrow]

I still do not see it as a war on Islam. I see it as a war for control of the Mediterranian. The Mediterranian is a very key point between Russia and The US.

This goes back to the days when open hostilities between Russia and the US looked imminent. The Mediterranian area would have been one of if not the major battle fields in a war between Russia and the US. The US needs the Mediterranian fleet to keep a strike force prepared for retalation against the Soviets. The soviets want it also, for the same reasons.

This has nothing to do with oil, or Islam. It is all over the strategic location of the land. And the Mediterranian Sea.

The reality is neraly every Nation that borders the Mediterranian is Muslim, so it is easy to believe this is a war against Islam.

Throughout much of the World Muslims are either the controling government or live in peace within the country.

[Woodrow]

I should have added that some of the European countries are anti-Islam. But, most of the Western World is Tolerant of Muslims. The Muslims living in Canada, South America and the US live in Peace and face little if any discrimination.

[Dawud_uk]

I should have added that some of the European countries are anti-Islam. But, most of the Western World is Tolerant of Muslims. The Muslims living in Canada, South America and the US live in Peace and face little if any discrimination.

try going out of your door and saying the mujahadeen are fighting a just course and then you can write us an email from your prison and tell us how just the US is for letting you have internet time.

sorry brother, but the west is at war with islam. do you read different news bullituns to the ones i do? bush and blair frequently refer to this as a war against an evil idiology trying to establish a state across the whole muslim world. i.e they are referring to the kalafate, they sometimes even speak against that.

they want to impose their way of life upon the muslims, they say they wish to impose secularism and therefore they will remove shariah.

they're completely opposed to islam in anything other than the personal sphere and even here they have started to infringe on muslim liberties, you cant even pray for the victory of the mujahadeen without the possible risk of arrest. our du'as are not a matter for the non-muslims to interfere in.

this is a war against islam in every aspect. you are very sadly deluded on this matter.

simularly we cannot pay our zakaat to the most worthy causes without our money being confiscated and possibly facing arrest,

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Woodrow]

Brother,
Actually I can only speak about my own experiences. I do know that here in Austin, the Muslim Community is very active. We do lead somewhat seperate lives from the general population. But, our living is not restricted to any area of the city. We can openly protest about anything we see as interfering with Islam, with no fear of arrest.

My Daughter has no fear nor is she stared at when she wears her Hijab and niqaab while shopping. I would say that the majority of the Muslimahs here in Austin wear the niqaab and we have yet to have any instance of them being asked to remove it for any prupose. Including having the peicture taken for their driver's liscense.

Several of the local businesses now offer prayer rooms for Muslims to use during prayer times.

Many of the Muslims living in Texas have family and friends living in Palestine so far none have had any trouble sending money to them.

It is true we do have some people in Washington that are going against the wishes of the American people. But, as Islam spreads throughout the US those people will find little support from the people and will be jobless.

I actually find Austin to be more Islamic than any City I ever lived in in any Mideastern country.

[Dawud_uk]

Brother,
Actually I can only speak about my own experiences. I do know that here in Austin, the Muslim Community is very active. We do lead somewhat seperate lives from the general population. But, our living is not restricted to any area of the city. We can openly protest about anything we see as interfering with Islam, with no fear of arrest.

My Daughter has no fear nor is she stared at when she wears her Hijab and niqaab while shopping. I would say that the majority of the Muslimahs here in Austin wear the niqaab and we have yet to have any instance of them being asked to remove it for any prupose. Including having the peicture taken for their driver's liscense.

Several of the local businesses now offer prayer rooms for Muslims to use during prayer times.

Many of the Muslims living in Texas have family and friends living in Palestine so far none have had any trouble sending money to them.

It is true we do have some people in Washington that are going against the wishes of the American people. But, as Islam spreads throughout the US those people will find little support from the people and will be jobless.

I actually find Austin to be more Islamic than any City I ever lived in in any Mideastern country.

assalaamu alaykum,

can you stand in the masjid and give a speech openly about the teachings of islam on jihad or would your imams and ulema be locked up for that same as they would be in the uk?
can you even promote the giving of zakaat to the mujahadeen without fear of arrest?

as i said they allow islam in the personal sphere but not in the full sense, in the full sense of islam being a total system they attack it, speak against it and try to stop it when they can.

they send soldiers to attack muslim nations that do try to implement islam as a full system, afghanistan and somalia being prime examples. they spend billions to support secular despots to make sure other muslim lands stay in the hands of their apostate allies.

they speak against islam as a whole system all the time, check out their speeches. all the while smiling at people like yourself and saying 'o no, not you, you're a good moderate muslim and dont call for all these things' knowing full well if you did they would arrest very quickly as they have many others.

now if you are content with half islam, 'islam-lite' then that is your choice and the choice of the people where you live but the rulings of ibn taymiyyah on such people are very clear and may Allah swt strengthen the imaan of us and not leave us content with such a personalised islam where other muslims are called by the govt's that you think give such freedoms.

those who stand up and say shariah is better than secular law, that Allah is the one to be obeyed are killed and they are killed in the name secularism and the killings are done by or sponsered by the US in particular and the west in general.

if Allah asks what you did to help the suffering of your sisters raped in afghanistan or iraq, or those sisters that are probably being raped today by ethiopian and warlord troops what will you answer?

did you even speech out? or did you keep silent and even try to defend those attacking islam as you have done so here?

i am sorry brother, you are making a major error here and i wish you didnt because on matters other than on this i have a great deal of respect for you but your error here is major and you and others need to be warned about it.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Woodrow]

With most of your post I have little personal experience. But, to this part:

can you stand in the masjid and give a speech openly about the teachings of islam on jihad or would your imams and ulema be locked up for that same as they would be in the uk?
can you even promote the giving of zakaat to the mujahadeen without fear of arrest?

The answer is yes. We can even openly advocate the overthrow of the government, as long as it is not by violent means. We can ask for donations for any cause as long as we are honest about where the money is going.

[Bittersteel]

Although the cold war is over for the most part and the Russian Empire has collapsed with the fall of communism, there is still tension between the US and the Soviet States.

I was referring to Ethiopia.India have tried to persuade the US that we(Bangladesh) is a terrorist nation,with the help of opposition.

[Woodrow]

I am in agreement that the US is doing wrong in the med East. But, the Wrong is not because the people are Muslim. The wrong is not justified. But, until we can say what the wrong is and why it is occuring all people are going to hear is that we say it is a war against Islam which it is not. It is a war to keep control of the Mediterranian area.

[Dawud_uk]

With most of your post I have little personal experience. But, to this part:



The answer is yes. We can even openly advocate the overthrow of the government, as long as it is not by violent means. We can ask for donations for any cause as long as we are honest about where the money is going.

tell it to sheikh ali tamimi!

subhanallah you know this is not true, please why do you try to convince yourself this is correct when it self evidently not true and is falsehood?

can you openly call for jihad? no you cannot. you would be arrested. please try it and proove me wrong, i would love to be wrong but i know i am not given that people like sheikh ali timimi who were arrested for this.

i will tell you this, the first obligation for giving zakaat to whilst their is jihad taking place is in support of the mujahadeen, now you try taking your zakaat and saying to the authorities that you are going to send this to the mujahadeen and see what happens?

they even police the du'a after jummah salaah and those that make du'a for the mujahadeen are considered suspect and monitored and i know for a fact that is the case here in the uk.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Woodrow]

I was referring to Ethiopia.India have tried to persuade the US that we(Bangladesh) is a terrorist nation,with the help of opposition.

I apologise for the apparant going off topic. But, the point is both the US and the Soviets want the Horn of Africa region. Point being Ethioia is playing both sides.

[Trumble]

they send soldiers to attack muslim nations that do try to implement islam as a full system, afghanistan and somalia being prime examples.

In both cases you seem very confused between 'nations' and 'factions within nations'. Most Afghans were only too pleased to see the back of the Taliban, and it was other Afghans that, albeit with considerable US support, actually did most of the dirty work in getting rid of them. Likewise, the Ethopians have not 'attacked' Somalia; they are allied with one faction and fighting another.

As a matter of historical fact, outside intervention was never required to establish 'secular despots' in the Middle East; they were quite capable of doing that themselves, and most (or their predecessors) did so long before the current islamic revival. Most have been 'backed' by somebody or other (US or Soviet, usually), invariably for the reasons Woodrow suggested, control and influence of the region in geopolitical terms. It is, indeed, all about oil - and very little to do with Islam. The only relevance of Islam is when it is perceived as a threat - not because of the religion but because of what some choose to do in its name, such as OBL. Take Iran, for example - the Western problem with Iran is not that it is 'Islamic', but that it has a stated intention to destroy Israel, and that it's acquisition of nuclear weapons would cause a huge shift in the balance of power in the region and, in US (and most other people's) opinion make it a very unstable and dangerous place. The oil must flow.

[Dawud_uk]

assalaamu alaykum woodrow,

here is a link you might want to see before you go using my test...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Al-Tamimi

i followed the trial as he is a scholar i respect greatly, the main evidence against him was a video in which he is shown making du'a for the victory of the taliban.

this was considered to be encouraging the killing of US citizens overseas, i.e the US soldiers and encouraging attacks against the US because the US was attacking the taliban.

as you can see from the link, the argument becomes false when it is shown that the US is clearly prosecuting muslims for calling for the defence of the muslim lands.

if it wasnt already shown to be false by their continued support for apostate tyrants around the world, or their continued attacks against muslims who want shariah like in afghanistan or somalia.

open your eyes brother, please, you do yourself no favours by not admitting to the blatent truth.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Woodrow]

tell it to sheikh ali tamimi!

subhanallah you know this is not true, please why do you try to convince yourself this is correct when it self evidently not true and is falsehood?

can you openly call for jihad? no you cannot. you would be arrested. please try it and proove me wrong, i would love to be wrong but i know i am not given that people like sheikh ali timimi who were arrested for this.

i will tell you this, the first obligation for giving zakaat to whilst their is jihad taking place is in support of the mujahadeen, now you try taking your zakaat and saying to the authorities that you are going to send this to the mujahadeen and see what happens?

they even police the du'a after jummah salaah and those that make du'a for the mujahadeen are considered suspect and monitored and i know for a fact that is the case here in the uk.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

they even police the du'a after jummah salaah and those that make du'a for the mujahadeen are considered suspect and monitored and i know for a fact that is the case here in the uk.

I am aware that does happen in the UK. So far it has not happened in Austin. If the US was so intent on keeping a close eye on Muslims here in the US do you think it would be so easy for illegal aliens to live in the us without fear of being caught and deported. The US is very far from being a Police State.

i will tell you this, the first obligation for giving zakaat to whilst their is jihad taking place is in support of the mujahadeen, now you try taking your zakaat and saying to the authorities that you are going to send this to the mujahadeen and see what happens?

the only time that would be stopped is if a person were to try to donate money to any one at war with the US or who is advocating the violent overthrow of the US.

can you openly call for jihad? no you cannot. you would be arrested. please try it and proove me wrong, i would love to be wrong but i know i am not given that people like sheikh ali timimi who were arrested for this.

You can openly call for a peacefull Jihad as long as it is conducted without violence.

Here was the Problem with Sheikh Ali Timimi:

ALEXANDRIA, Virginia -- A prominent Islamic scholar with "rock star status" who influenced young members of a paintball club called the "Virginia Jihad Network" to join the Taliban and fight U.S. troops, was sentenced yesterday to life in prison.

It is not wise to encourage the people of a country to wage war against that countries Army. Do you think it would be wise for somebody to go to Theran and try to encouge Iranian students to join the US Army and fight Hezbullah?

He would have been within his rights to point out that the US is wrong and he would be within his rights to encouarage people to vote against the current government and he would be within his rights to advocate a peacefull change of government.


The answer is no. You can not do that. that would be a case of advocating violent over throw of the US. I doubt if you can go into any country and ask for money to support war against the country you are in.

[Dawud_uk]

assalaamu alaykum,

the evidence against him was that they said he advocated attacks against the US AND INDIA. india not in the US is it?

baba ahmed is also wanted in the US, for sending sleeping bags and boots to chechnya! once again not a state of the US is it?

besides this is all a side argument, the US is attacking the muslim lands and in particular targetting those who want to rule by islam as a whole system, why do you deny this when it is the statements of your own government and the government of my country also?

they say they are attacking an evil idiology that wants to impose islamic law on the whole muslim lands... well that is just islam, anyone who doesnt believe in the kalafate is not advocating islam, they have something else but it is not islam.

your mind is closed, i am not going to waste anymore time with you on this. i love you for the sake of Allah but you are so misguided and far from the teachings of islam on this it is beyond tragic.

may Allah guide you back to the truth of islam and away from your asabiyyah and love for the enemies of Islam.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Woodrow]

I love you to Brother for the Sake of Allah(swt). I do appreciate your views and stand by your right to them.

But, you are right we are getting no place with these side arguements, let us let the thread return to its topic. which is the war in Africa.

I will say that I agree it is US backed. I will even agree the backing is unjust.

[Islamicboy]

Woodrow do you even know why America is willing to back such an unjust war? Its because the islamist were trying to bring Shariah. If you cannot see that as an attack on islam then i dont know what is an attack on islam. George bush had made it clear the reason american troops have to stay in iraq so they dont create Khilafah. <Seems like george bush doesnt want the spread of islam and muslims being united under the law of Allah.

[cihad]

maybe they found some oil in somalia...

[Dawud_uk]

maybe they found some oil in somalia...

actually they have probable oil reserves in somalia, i.e there are the right conditions there and likely to be some oil but not sure.

[Woodrow]

Woodrow do you even know why America is willing to back such an unjust war? Its because the islamist were trying to bring Shariah. If you cannot see that as an attack on islam then i dont know what is an attack on islam. George bush had made it clear the reason american troops have to stay in iraq so they dont create Khilafah. <Seems like george bush doesnt want the spread of islam and muslims being united under the law of Allah.

I see it as a desire to keep a foothold in the Mediterranian. I believe we would have invaded Iraq if it had been a Christian Country and the US did not have a foot hold there. the US is afraid to loose control of the Mediterranian.

[Bittersteel]

true,especially after China lauched its diplomatic and trade initiatives there.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/click/rss/1...ca/6212807.stm

[AvarAllahNoor]

I've just heard saddam is to hang. Ameria has alot to answer for. They seem to stick their noses in where it's not required. Let those who turned a blind eye during saddams rule also hang. I'd go and see the public execution myself. Now they fund Ethiopia but fail to fund the country to eradicate famine! - My blood boils. to tiop it all off, bush wasn't even ELECTED so what kind of democracy is he implementing in these other countries??

Saddam hangs, usa won't know what's hit them i can tell you that much now!

May God help us all!

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

The world is going off the edge so fast it's not even funny! It's creepy actually:offended:

[Keltoi]

I've just heard saddam is to hang. Ameria has alot to answer for. They seem to stick their noses in where it's not required. Let those who turned a blind eye during saddams rule also hang. I'd go and see the public execution myself. Now they fund Ethiopia but fail to fund the country to eradicate famine! - My blood boils. to tiop it all off, bush wasn't even ELECTED so what kind of democracy is he implementing in these other countries??

Saddam hangs, usa won't know what's hit them i can tell you that much now!

May God help us all!

What do you mean Bush wasn't elected? If you are referring to the disputed election of 2000, that is irrelevant since he was elected again in 2004. As for those who "turned a blind eye" to the killing of the Kurds, that would be half the world. Just as those who didn't come to the aid of those in Rwanda turned a "blind eye". Sometimes justice is slow in coming, sometimes it doesn't come at all. I for one would be satisfied with a life sentence, but it was an Iraqi court who sentenced him to death, following the statutes of their own constitution and legal system.

[Islamicboy]

I see it as a desire to keep a foothold in the Mediterranian. I believe we would have invaded Iraq if it had been a Christian Country and the US did not have a foot hold there. the US is afraid to loose control of the Mediterranian.

Yes, But did the american government say thats the reason they are supporting Ethopia? I could care less if bush would have even invaded iraq if christians were there. My concern was bush clearly said he does not want Khilafah to be created in iraq. American government made it clear they dont want any country to bring shariah in there political system. Lets not assume and ask what if? questions thats just waste of time and that could also be one of the ways trying to avoid or justify this war.

[Woodrow]

Yes, But did the american government say thats the reason they are supporting Ethopia? I could care less if bush would have even invaded iraq if christians were there. My concern was bush clearly said he does not want Khilafah to be created in iraq. American government made it clear they dont want any country to bring shariah in there political system. Lets not assume and ask what if? questions thats just waste of time and that could also be one of the ways trying to avoid or justify this war. The facts are very clear I am a type of person that takes what the person said.

There is no justification for the US to be in Iraq. There are just reasons why some politicians decided to do so.

The majority of Americans do not want us to be there. The problem is nobody here has come up with a way to get us out.

I personaly doubt very much that Bush or even many Americans even have any concept of what Khalifah or Shariah are. Too many people equate it with terrorism. The American Government does not always speak for the American people.

[Islamicboy]

There is no justification for the US to be in Iraq. There are just reasons why some politicians decided to do so.

The majority of Americans do not want us to be there. The problem is nobody here has come up with a way to get us out.

I personaly doubt very much that Bush or even many Americans even have any concept of what Khalifah or Shariah are. Too many people equate it with terrorism. The American Government does not always speak for the American people.

"The majority of Americans do not want us to be there" <This is democrcy right what happened to majority counts?
I am fully aware that the government does not always speak for the american people.
"Bush or even many Americans even have any concept of what Khalifah or Shariah are. Too many people equate it with terrorism. " <I see that as if you are trying to justify why the american government is backing ethopia or pushed Ethopia into fighting Islamist.

[Dahir]

I just want to set the record straight and say that Somalia has very little oil in terms of both reserves and deposits.

Somalia has large deposits of uranium; which has only caught the eye of Iran in recent months.

[Chuck]

"I see that as if you are trying to justify why the american government is backing ethopia or pushed Ethopia into fighting Islamist."
But br does have a point. There is too much counter productive politics going on among muslims and it is not helping Islam. Islam used to be the fastest growing religion and now it is not.

[Dahir]

"I see that as if you are trying to justify why the american government is backing ethopia or pushed Ethopia into fighting Islamist."
But br does have a point. There is too much counter productive politics going on among muslims and it is not helping Islam. Islam used to be the fastest growing religion and now it is not.

Of the massive religions in the world, Islam is statistically by a long shot, the fastest growing.

But I agree that ideologically, Islam is going nowhere. Lebanon is headed to civil war, which could mean the end of Hezbollah, an Islamist group; same fate is to be met by Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and abroad.

If the Somali front doesn't go well, it'll set Islamic politics at least a decade back.

[Woodrow]

"The majority of Americans do not want us to be there" <This is democrcy right what happened to majority counts?
I am fully aware that the government does not always speak for the american people.
"Bush or even many Americans even have any concept of what Khalifah or Shariah are. Too many people equate it with terrorism. " <I see that as if you are trying to justify why the american government is backing ethopia or pushed Ethopia into fighting Islamist.

Far be it from justification. Unfounded fears are not justifiable. But, they are an explanation as to why people do things. Very few people in this world act with the belief they are wrong. Erroneous thought is what leads to unjustifiable error.

Up until a few weeks ago, many Americans would not have even been able to find Ethiopia on a map, much less know anything about the country. Even today I believe if you ask the typical American what kind of country Ethiopia is, they would answer that they think it is a Mid-Eastern Islamic country.

Americans have a tendancy to be very uninformed about many of the World's affairs.

It has only been in the past 5 years that the Muslim population in the US has been noticed. Although the number of immigrants is declining the Muslim population is growing, through reverts that are seeing the truth of Islam and liking what they see.

Over all there will still be many mistakes made in Africa and the Mideast. These mistakes are not from malice, but the result of ignorance. the American Public has a long history of being able to ignore the problems of the world. But, times are changing we are waking up and seeing that the problems of any nation eventually affects us.

Granted any aid to Ethiopia was misused and the US should have been sending food not money. If it had been widly known here that Ethiopia was using american money to buy soviet war planes instead of food, there would have been a huge out cry of indignation.

Americans had an image of Ethiopia being the world's poorest country and the people dieing of starvation by the thousands each day.

Sadly too many Americans put their trust in the elected politicians and never pay any attention as to what they are doing until something becomes a disaster.

[Islamicboy]

What does this have to do with anything? America is at war with islam the religion not muslims the followers of islam. American government has put behind bars every truthful scholars and also demanded the same too all the middle eastern countries. So now we have scholars for dollars every where telling us to join hands with the isrealis and work with america in killing muslims and islam off the lands of Prophet Muhammed S.A.W. American government does not want muslims to die or change there religion america wants us to do what christians and the jews did change the religion hide the facts. America wants us to be more like them and not follow the sunnah of prophet muhammed s.a.w. and reject the laws of the almighty Allah S.W.T. But the war has caused many muslims instead of going to the american views muslims have gone more towards there religion which backfired on the US. Also one more thing the tactics being used right now by the media is the same tactics used by the crusaders. The crusaders first did was lie about muslims being backward coming to kill them then when all the people were brainwashed they attacked muslims.

[SilentObserver]

What does this have to do with anything? America is at war with islam the religion not muslims the followers of islam. American government has put behind bars every truthful scholars and also demanded the same too all the middle eastern countries. So now we have scholars for dollars every where telling us to join hands with the isrealis and work with america in killing muslims and islam off the lands of Prophet Muhammed S.A.W. American government does not want muslims to die or change there religion america wants us to do what christians and the jews did change the religion hide the facts. America wants us to be more like them and not follow the sunnah of prophet muhammed s.a.w. and reject the laws of the almighty Allah S.W.T. But the war has caused many muslims instead of going to the american views muslims have gone more towards there religion which backfired on the US. Also one more thing the tactics being used right now by the media is the same tactics used by the crusaders. The crusaders first did was lie about muslims being backward coming to kill them then when all the people were brainwashed they attacked muslims.

At some point, whether true or not, people start to become immune to hearing the same things over and over. What I mean by that, is we here over and over how the west (in particular the US in this case) is behind all things evil in the world today. With time, people will just tune it out.
Do you know the story of the boy that cried wolf?

[Islamicboy]

edit

[SilentObserver]

Ok you tell me where do I go wrong. Afganistan, Iraq, Palestnian, Somalia is american not waging a war agiasnt these countries?? Can you please tell me which other evils in the world I have blamed on america???

whether true or not

With time, people will just tune it out.

:uhwhat

[Islamicboy]

But this is never meant for the non muslims. The reason i am saying this on Islamic Board is to make muslims aware of the american intentions. Even though many muslims maybe well aware there are some in denial.

[SilentObserver]

O yeah i never read the book "Boy that cried wolf" and plan on never reading it unless you want to summarize it. :)

In a nutshell, the boy cried "wolf"! many times when there was no wolf. At the end of the story, the wolf comes to get the boy, the boy cries "wolf"!, and nobody comes to help the boy because they no longer believe him. The wolf devours the boy. The end.

[SilentObserver]

But this is never meant for the non muslims. The reason i am saying this on Islamic Board is to make muslims aware of the american intentions. Even though many muslims maybe well aware there are some in denial.

I wonder if you are aware that there are nonmuslims that feel exactly the way that you do, except that it is you that they feel have the ill intentions. They say that the rest of the non-muslims are in denial about the fact that muslims have a plan, and are plotting against us.

Isn't that silly?

[Trumble]

I see the ICU has left Mogadishu. BBC.

This

Hundreds of gunmen who had just fought for the Union of Islamic Courts (UIC) took off their uniforms and submitted to the command of clan elders, the Associated Press news agency reported.

just seems to sum up Somalia. Old habits die hard.

[Dawud_uk]

I wonder if you are aware that there are nonmuslims that feel exactly the way that you do, except that it is you that they feel have the ill intentions. They say that the rest of the non-muslims are in denial about the fact that muslims have a plan, and are plotting against us.

Isn't that silly?

(what he knows about the plan? quick kill him!?!?! lol)

[Dawud_uk]

I see the ICU has left Mogadishu. BBC.

This



just seems to sum up Somalia. Old habits die hard.

do you hear something trumble,

no me neither, so dont think things are over till the fat lady gets up and gives us a song ok?

the islamic forces now they dont have the manpower to beat planes and tanks, but the ethiopians cannot survive a long drawn out gurilla war so guess what? that is what the islamic courts will give them and then will come back together and defeat the govt once the ethiopians leave insha'allah.

remember ethiopia has lots of problems at home and cant keep its troops in somalia indefinetely, especially as their supply lines have to pass by muslim controlled parts of ethiopia that are in rebellion and are ethnically somali also.

Abu Abdullah

[samsam]

[QUOTE=Woodrow;609259]I still do not see it as a war on Islam. I see it as a war for control of the Mediterranian. The Mediterranian is a very key point between Russia and The US.

woodrow , people in somalia are being tortured for their deen:cry: , i watched this clip of a man being tortured with an electric chair . this cetainly is war on islam.

[Trumble]

do you hear something trumble,

no me neither, so dont think things are over till the fat lady gets up and gives us a song ok?

Erm.. I don't recall saying anything about anything being 'over'; I just said that the ICU had left Mogadishu. They have.

the islamic forces now they dont have the manpower to beat planes and tanks

They don't, but for rather different reasons than you believe, I suspect. If they had significant forces their best chances against the Ethiopians would be in Mogadishu. Laudable though it would be if they had left just to prevent civilian casualties, I don't believe a word of it. They had far more men, more heavy weapons and organisation than the warlords who gave the Americans and Pakistanis such a hard time there. It's the 'had' that's the problem, once the perception of the ICU as 'winners' faded, their 'support' in the form of militia rapidly faded with it and they became just a 'faction' again in Mogadishu, among many. They can fight a guerilla war, certainly, but the question is who will fight it for them? How many Somalis believe in the cause rather than just what is in their own short-term self-interest? No doubt suitable recruits can be imported, but they really have no more business fighting in Somalia than Ethiopia does.

i watched this clip of a man being tortured with an electric chair . this cetainly is war on islam.

Torture is always terrible, but how do you know what he was being tortured for?

[Dawud_uk]

Erm.. I don't recall saying anything about anything being 'over'; I just said that the ICU had left Mogadishu. They have.



They don't, but for rather different reasons than you believe, I suspect. If they had significant forces their best chances against the Ethiopians would be in Mogadishu. Laudable though it would be if they had left just to prevent civilian casualties, I don't believe a word of it. They had far more men, more heavy weapons and organisation than the warlords who gave the Americans and Pakistanis such a hard time there. It's the 'had' that's the problem, once the perception of the ICU as 'winners' faded, their 'support' in the form of militia rapidly faded with it and they became just a 'faction' again in Mogadishu, among many. They can fight a guerilla war, certainly, but the question is who will fight it for them? How many Somalis believe in the cause rather than just what is in their own short-term self-interest? No doubt suitable recruits can be imported, but they really have no more business fighting in Somalia than Ethiopia does.

trumble,

every somali i know supports them. every somali on here supports them. every somali practicing their faith truly in somalia will support them. they will have their men and if true sincere muslims choose to come help them and i hope they do then all the better.

Abu Abdullah

[Abu Zakariya]

If it indeed did happen as Trumble suspects it did, it reminds me of the battle of Uhud.

May Allah help does that fight for His Word to be supreme. Amin.

[i_m_tipu]

"The majority of Americans do not want us to be there" <This is democrcy right what happened to majority counts?

:sl:
There are billions protest all over the world (excluding amazing nation Israeli) including America against the war on Afganistan and Iraq. Does it change anything?

People talk about democracy. Sick....

Br.Woodrow said he can do everything in his locality. That is wonderful news for the muslim live-in there.

I have my elder sister and another two cousins with their whole family live in America for last 25 years. Last six month we were not talk. You know why? She is so afraid that she even talks to me. One thing I must let u know we talk about Islam very rarely even if we did we talk about very liberal mater.

I believe lot of people on this forum also afraid to talk about everything and situation of muslim right. And u also knows it.

In bangladesh we are restricted for not to go or visit site contains mujahid and zihad topics which the interpoll think harmful. Thou it is not officially announcement of the govt. but they are arresting/warming peoples. They say they are force to give every data to interpoll about people going which site or browsing what things.

I believe people can never give bigger example of abuse of people right than Israel and America had done and still doing and will doing.

[Seeker-of-ilm]

"The BBC's Mohammed Olad Hassan in Mogadishu says clan militiamen appeared as soon as the news of the withdrawal emerged early on Thursday, and UIC offices have been looted.

Residents in the north of the city have reported cars and mobile phones being stolen.

Rising insecurity has forced most businesses to stop trading.

The situation seems to be descending back into anarchy, our correspondent adds.

Observers say the UIC's departure leaves a power vacuum in Mogadishu, raising fears of a return to clan warfare that has plagued the city and Somalia for 16 years. "
Ina Lilah wa ina ilaihi rajee'oon...Brothers and sisters, please don't forget Somalia in your du'aa, they need it more than ever.
And don't worry too much about these warlords, they will get what is coming them inshallah, if not in this dunia then in the akhira.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Mogadishu appeared to be sliding back into years of chaos as the Somalia Islamic Courts Council (SICC) fled their base in the face of government fighters backed by Ethiopian tanks and jets.

"We have been defeated. I have removed my uniform. Most of my comrades have also changed into civilian clothes," one former SICC fighter told Reuters in the frantic port city.


"Most of our leaders have fled. I am no longer an Islamic Courts' soldier."
Gunfire and outbreaks of looting marked the end of months of relative stability that began when the Islamists chased U.S. backed warlords from the city in June and imposed sharia, Islamic law.

"Uncertainty hangs in the air. My worst fear is the capital will succumb to its old anarchy," said resident Muktar Abdi.

Bush and his adminstration could not tolerate the stability, so decided to end it. - If only the same anarchy could prevail in the US then he'd see what it feels like!!

[AvarAllahNoor]

What do you mean Bush wasn't elected? If you are referring to the disputed election of 2000, that is irrelevant since he was elected again in 2004. As for those who "turned a blind eye" to the killing of the Kurds, that would be half the world. Just as those who didn't come to the aid of those in Rwanda turned a "blind eye". Sometimes justice is slow in coming, sometimes it doesn't come at all. I for one would be satisfied with a life sentence, but it was an Iraqi court who sentenced him to death, following the statutes of their own constitution and legal system.

Relevant! Only reason he's in office is due to fraud!

And it's not the other countries who are going into foreign lands for oil is it! - They may have a role to play behind the scenes, but US are leading and it's backfiring on them.

And...'statutes of their own constitution and legal system' Which government made the laws to begin with so they could be implemented in Iraq?

[samsam]

Erm.. I don't recall saying anything about anything being 'over'; I just said that the ICU had left Mogadishu. They have.



They don't, but for rather different reasons than you believe, I suspect. If they had significant forces their best chances against the Ethiopians would be in Mogadishu. Laudable though it would be if they had left just to prevent civilian casualties, I don't believe a word of it. They had far more men, more heavy weapons and organisation than the warlords who gave the Americans and Pakistanis such a hard time there. It's the 'had' that's the problem, once the perception of the ICU as 'winners' faded, their 'support' in the form of militia rapidly faded with it and they became just a 'faction' again in Mogadishu, among many. They can fight a guerilla war, certainly, but the question is who will fight it for them? How many Somalis believe in the cause rather than just what is in their own short-term self-interest? No doubt suitable recruits can be imported, but they really have no more business fighting in Somalia than Ethiopia does.




Torture is always terrible, but how do you know what he was being tortured for?

because they were telling him to leave islam , and swearig not to stop until everyone is a kafir. he was screaming'allahu akbar' they beated him because he did a gathering were islam was being lectured:cry:

[Trumble]

Bush and his adminstration could not tolerate the stability, so decided to end it. - If only the same anarchy could prevail in the US then he'd see what it feels like!!

Sure, they are certainly no fans of the UIC, but this has nothing to do with Bush and his administration... unless you actually have any evidence of same? The Ethiopians are quite capable of cooking something like this up for themselves... as, indeed, are the Somalis.

"People are cheering as they wave flowers to the troops," resident Abdikadar Abdulle told Reuters news agency, adding that military vehicles had passed the Somalia National University"

However another resident told the BBC: "The entire people of Somalia are ready and working against the Ethiopian armed forces... As Muslims, God willing we will defeat the enemies of Islam and their lackeys".

BBC

[AvarAllahNoor]

Sure, they are certainly no fans of the UIC, but this has nothing to do with Bush and his administration... unless you actually have any evidence of same? The Ethiopians are quite capable of cooking something like this up for themselves... as, indeed, are the Somalis.

Indeed they are, but what are the chances? Want to place a bet?

USA intervened as it had done before. Funding the warlords, but that didnt work so, Ethiopians are funded, and hey presto. UIC GONE!

[KAding]

Indeed they are, but what are the chances? Want to place a bet?

USA intervened as it had done before. Funding the warlords, but that didnt work so, Ethiopians are funded, and hey presto. UIC GONE!

When have the US funded the Ethiopians? Do you have any proof of this?

Why does everyone seem to think the US must be behind this. Lets not forget that the ICU was actually claiming part of Ethiopia for itself. Ethiopian sovereignty was at stake, they have plenty of motive to attack the ICU. They don't need the US for that, just like most wars on this planet are being fought without the US being part of it.

[Chuck]

Lets not forget that the ICU was actually claiming part of Ethiopia for itself.

ICU brought stability in these areas, they were not in the control of Ethiopian govt. in the first place. Moreover, somalia was progressing without a govt.

[Trumble]

USA intervened as it had done before. Funding the warlords, but that didnt work so, Ethiopians are funded, and hey presto. UIC GONE!

Again, as KAding said, what evidence do you have for this 'funding' for this purpose?

The Ethiopians had the tanks, the planes (mostly of Soviet/Russian origin) and the military manpower. They fought a long and bloody struggle with the Eritreans that makes Somalia look like a small skirmish from their point of view. No 'funding' from the US was required - what exactly do you claim it was spent on?

[Islamicboy]

USA did not supply them with weapons but America was the first country to Alert the world about the islamist. Ethopia was not even concerned about them until America started to cry shariah is coming. Then all of the sudden Ethopia feels that there sovereignty was at stake.

[ocacia]

This is true, Ethiopia became concerned because they got pushed. The same with their support for iraq, America gives them food. So r u going to say no. It is absolutly stupid and unprogressive to say there is no war on Islam or Muslims. I guess there was no enslavement of African people, or no racism in America of African Americans. Ohh it was about resources, am yes and in their attempt to get oil etc, they have created a war against Muslim poeple. Baka! I am sick of this "it is in our mind" Switch on the news Islamisit what is that about Muslim Militants the language of war, just like the cold war. the rhetoric of Evil and Good and Muslims are on the left of that equation. Imagine when Hitler started with the Jews you remember why the Jews didnt run away? Because they were cooked slowly, until it was too late, I always asked run before they come, but they said "no way could it be a war against jews" 6 million people dead, lets count the dead bodies from the war and see what religion is coming in dead support the film http://www.ourstoryourvoice.com see the extra clip on Darfur. wake up man

[AvarAllahNoor]

When have the US funded the Ethiopians? Do you have any proof of this?

Why does everyone seem to think the US must be behind this. Lets not forget that the ICU was actually claiming part of Ethiopia for itself. Ethiopian sovereignty was at stake, they have plenty of motive to attack the ICU. They don't need the US for that, just like most wars on this planet are being fought without the US being part of it.

*Deep Sigh*

Did they fund the warlords?

[AvarAllahNoor]

Again, as KAding said, what evidence do you have for this 'funding' for this purpose?

The Ethiopians had the tanks, the planes (mostly of Soviet/Russian origin) and the military manpower. They fought a long and bloody struggle with the Eritreans that makes Somalia look like a small skirmish from their point of view. No 'funding' from the US was required - what exactly do you claim it was spent on?

You're right. - US were not behind Iraq or Afghanistan either. Gosh what must i be thinking. I'm so sorry! How foolish of me to jump to conclusions like this. :rollseyes

I know it's not a war on Islam, but US should mind their own business. Half the american population don't even agree with the US meddling in other peoples affairs!

[Trumble]

You're right. - US were not behind Iraq or Afghanistan either. Gosh what must i be thinking. I'm so sorry! How foolish of me to jump to conclusions like this. :rollseyes

I thought so. Of course the US was 'behind' Iraq and Afghanistan. They are different wars, in different places, and involve large numbers of US troops. How many US troops are currently fighting the ICU, exactly? :rollseyes . Do you have any evidence for your conclusion other than your own prejudice?

[Chuck]

USA did not supply them with weapons but America was the first country to Alert the world about the islamist. Ethopia was not even concerned about them until America started to cry shariah is coming. Then all of the sudden Ethopia feels that there sovereignty was at stake.

And did ICU take productive steps to counter the fears?

[Dawud_uk]

trumble...

did the US not back the warlords to stop the islamic courts coming to power?
answer the question please.

Abu Abdullah

[Trumble]

trumble...

did the US not back the warlords to stop the islamic courts coming to power?
answer the question please.

It's been claimed (but not confirmed) that the CIA has thrown some money their way, yes. It certainly wouldn't surprise me, the Americans certainly have no wish for the UIC to remain in power; rightly or wrongly they see such a Somalia as a potential hot-house for terrorism.

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the suggestion that the US both instigated and funded the Ethiopian action, for which no evidence whatsoever has been provided. The idea that America is somehow 'responsible' for the current conflict as the result of a few comments made regarding the ICU is absurd. As far as I am aware not even the ICU themselves have claimed that was the Ethiopian motivation. That motivation is simply enhanced power in the region for Ethiopia, not some whimsical desire to do what Bush might want them to do. They see themselves as the regional 'power'.

[Dawud_uk]

It's been claimed (but not confirmed) that the CIA has thrown some money their way, yes. It certainly wouldn't surprise me, the Americans certainly have no wish for the UIC to remain in power; rightly or wrongly they see such a Somalia as a potential hot-house for terrorism.

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with the suggestion that the US both instigated and funded the Ethiopian action, for which no evidence whatsoever has been provided. The idea that America is somehow 'responsible' for the current conflict as the result of a few comments made regarding the ICU is absurd. As far as I am aware not even the ICU themselves have claimed that was the Ethiopian motivation. That motivation is simply enhanced power in the region for Ethiopia, not some whimsical desire to do what Bush might want them to do. They see themselves as the regional 'power'.

let me ask you this question...

if the US had chosen could they with their power and the aid they give and the threat of removing it have stopped the ethiopians?

yes or no?

but did they not show their constant hatred and dislike of the islamic courts and so gave the green light to the attack? do you seriously think ethiopia would move without a nod and a wink from the most power nation on earth?

Abu Abdullah

[Trumble]

let me ask you this question...

if the US had chosen could they with their power and the aid they give and the threat of removing it have stopped the ethiopians?

yes or no?

Probably, but why should they? Lots of other people give aid to Ethiopia as well, I don't see them theatening to stop it, either. The Americans don't like the UIC, nobody is denying that - why would they intervene in that fashion?

do you seriously think ethiopia would move without a nod and a wink from the most power nation on earth?

Yes, frankly. They simply had no need of a 'nod and a wink' from anybody, so there is absolutely no reason to assume one was sought or granted. Plenty of people start and fight wars without getting US approval first - and what difference would not getting it have made? The Ethiopians would have known full well that the US would not intervene to prevent such a conflict, or provide assistance to the UIC should it occur. It just comes down to the usual 'blame it all on America' routine.

[KAding]

*Deep Sigh*

Did they fund the warlords?

Probably. Although the US denies it at least, for whats it's worth. It doesn't appear they provided weapons recently either. Not according to the latest UN report on the war in Somalia anyway. It accuses ten countries of providing weapons, which does not include the US. (Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6149276.stm). There are apparently lots of countries involved, all which have their own agenda. Yet, you insist on blaming the US for this. Why?

Besides, how does the US funding or backing some warlords mean that it is controlling Ethiopian actions? Do you deny Ethiopia has it's own reasons for fighting this war? And has in fact been active in Somalia for more than a decade now? Don't you think that perhaps the reason that the ICU has been demanding the Ogaden region which is now part of Ethiopia might have upset Ethiopia? Sure, the US has their own reason to dislike the ICU, so do other countries!

[i_m_tipu]

Probably. Although the US denies it at least, for whats it's worth. It doesn't appear they provided weapons recently either. Not according to the latest UN report on the war in Somalia anyway. It accuses ten countries of providing weapons, which does not include the US. (Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6149276.stm). There are apparently lots of countries involved, all which have their own agenda. Yet, you insist on blaming the US for this. Why?

Besides, how does the US funding or backing some warlords mean that it is controlling Ethiopian actions? Do you deny Ethiopia has it's own reasons for fighting this war? And has in fact been active in Somalia for more than a decade now? Don't you think that perhaps the reason that the ICU has been demanding the Ogaden region which is now part of Ethiopia might have upset Ethiopia? Sure, the US has their own reason to dislike the ICU, so do other countries!

hello

I m full of surprise.

I heard on my own ears that a terrorisms specialist (called by cnn) telling cnn on the time when ICU controlled the Somalia. He blaming USA policy again and again for fueling Warlord. He said in afgan vs rasia war usa mistook in Somalia usa mistook again. And he continuously blaming USA policy.

[KAding]

hello

I m full of surprise.

I heard on my own ears that a terrorisms specialist (called by cnn) telling cnn on the time when ICU controlled the Somalia. He blaming USA policy again and again for fueling Warlord. He said in afgan vs rasia war usa mistook in Somalia usa mistook again. And he continuously blaming USA policy.

The thing is. The ICU are also 'warlords' and as the UN report notes they are actively armed by many Muslim countries. This is probably one of the reasons why the ICU was doing so well recently. That was the reason why Ethiopia (and the US eventually) got concerned.

People always like to focus on the US. What about the blame for countries that have actually been shown and proven to be involved!

[i_m_tipu]

from cnn

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa...ref=sitesearch

Tuesday, June 6, 2006; Posted: 8:21 p.m. EDT (00:21 GMT)

//this below poll on that time cnn offer to the user

QUICKVOTE
Do you think the U.S. should be supporting warlords in Somalia?
Yes
No

The Islamic militia that has claimed control of Somalia's capital Mogadishu still faces opposition from some of residents and is unlikely to be able to form a new government, according to observers.

The Islamic Courts Union, which is suspected of ties to the al Qaeda terrorist network, claimed Monday to have wrested control of the war-torn city of some 2 million residents from a U.S.-backed coalition of warlords who call themselves an anti-terrorist alliance.


The United States has had no direct involvement in Somalia since 1994, when U.S. troops -- originally dispatched on a humanitarian mission -- were withdrawn after becoming embroiled in the country's civil war.
// it clearly prove U.S had indirect involvement in Somalia with warlord.

But Prendergast said U.S. operatives had been supporting the secular warlords, many of whom were the same militia leaders who fought pitched battles in the streets of Mogadishu in the 1990s.

"It remains to be seen whether the U.S.-backed groups can live to see another day and fight for control of some of the territory they've lost," he said.

i think it is enough prove form one page. search yourself Kading u will find more surelly.

[AvarAllahNoor]

I thought so. Of course the US was 'behind' Iraq and Afghanistan. They are different wars, in different places, and involve large numbers of US troops. How many US troops are currently fighting the ICU, exactly? :rollseyes . Do you have any evidence for your conclusion other than your own prejudice?

I harbor no prejudice. I'm just making you aware that like most, you're jumping on the bandwagon but fail to see what is actually happening for yourself.

And, why don't you provide the evidence that the US are not funding. :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Probably. Although the US denies it at least, for whats it's worth. It doesn't appear they provided weapons recently either. Not according to the latest UN report on the war in Somalia anyway. It accuses ten countries of providing weapons, which does not include the US. (Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6149276.stm). There are apparently lots of countries involved, all which have their own agenda. Yet, you insist on blaming the US for this. Why?

I'm not anti america just anti dubya. He's a cretin. 2008 Can't come sooner when that goofball will leave office. He's ruined what was once a great country. I just hope the democrats can try to build bridges where he's destroyed them!

Only thing i would criticize Clinton for, was his failure to act in Rwanda.

[Trumble]

i think it is enough prove form one page.

I hate to be picky, but there is no 'proof' at all. All that is is CNN quoting one person's (who has no connection with the US government) opinion.

And, why don't you provide the evidence that the US are not funding.

As you should be perfectly well aware, it is virtually impossible to 'prove' that somebody isn't doing something. The emphasis is on the person who is claiming something is being done to prove it... that should only take one piece of evidence, if it is good enough. You have no such evidence of US funding of Ethiopia for this campaign.

[AvarAllahNoor]

I hate to be picky, but there is no 'proof' at all. All that is is CNN quoting one person's (who has no connection with the US government) opinion.

As you should be perfectly well aware, it is virtually impossible to 'prove' that somebody isn't doing something. The emphasis is on the person who is claiming something is being done to prove it... that should only take one piece of evidence, if it is good enough. You have no such evidence of US funding of Ethiopia for this campaign.

Would it change your thought, or would you continue to dance around it like you are?

[KAding]

Would it change your thought, or would you continue to dance around it like you are?

How do these claims that the US is funding some warlords provide any foundation for your claim that Ethiopia is acting on orders of the US?

[Dawud_uk]

How do these claims that the US is funding some warlords provide any foundation for your claim that Ethiopia is acting on orders of the US?

this was even stated by the editoral of the independent newspaper in the UK which is strictly secular and athiest.

[AvarAllahNoor]

How do these claims that the US is funding some warlords provide any foundation for your claim that Ethiopia is acting on orders of the US?

1 - Warlords funded but fail
2 - UIC take control
3 - US not happy
4 - Lets get Ethiopia involved - Backed by US.

Ta Dah! :)

[Dawud_uk]

1 - Warlords funded but fail
2 - UIC take control
3 - US not happy
4 - Lets get Ethiopia involved - Backed by US.

Ta Dah! :)

thanks my friend,

i find it ironic that the best defence of islam and the muslims is coming from a sikh at the moment.

take care,

Abu Abdullah

[AvarAllahNoor]

thanks my friend,

i find it ironic that the best defence of islam and the muslims is coming from a sikh at the moment.

take care,

Abu Abdullah

I'm just telling it like it is.!

[Woodrow]

Sadly too few people are aware of what has actually taken place in Somalia. Except for people that have contact with family or friends there, most of our awareness is what the media shows and the media is only going to show that which will bring the highest viewing audience.

Most people do not want to hear of faults about the country that they live in, so the media for the most part will cater to that whim. Corporate profit is one of the most powerfull shapers of Government policy.

[KAding]

1 - Warlords funded but fail
2 - UIC take control
3 - US not happy
4 - Lets get Ethiopia involved - Backed by US.

Ta Dah! :)

First of all, this is not proof whatsoever. You could just as well have said "it is so, because I think it is so" ;). But at least it clears up your thought process a bit.

But at least be so honest to make it somewhat more complete list
1. Some warlords get support from Ethiopia and possibly (unproven and denied) the US. Other warlords (ICU) get support from the countries named in the UN report on the breach of the weapons embargo
2. ICU warlords are winning the fight and control much of the country
3. Ethiopia is not happy due to Ogaden being disputed territory and the ICU thinking it are Muslim lands
4. The US is not happy because it believes some within the ICU have links with the 1998 embassy bombings
5. Ethiopia invades Somalia

Now, I assume our only dispute is about 5 and you agree with 1-4. What do you believe exactly about 5 though?
1. That the US threatened Ethiopia to invade?
2. That the US bribed Ethiopia to invade?
3. That the US actively engaged Ethiopia to get it to invade Somalia
4. That the US didn't oppose the invasion?

So essentially, do you think Ethiopia would have been capable and willing to fight the ICU without US involvement? If not, why not? What political, financial or military obstacles would there be?
And one more question you so far failed to answer. Assuming you are right and the US is involved somehow, why are you so outraged about them but not all those other countries who have breached the arms embargo to arm the ICU?

[Keltoi]

I think some people have a fairly simplified view of world politics, when the reality is much more complicated. Ethiopia doesn't need a U.S. "nod and wink" to do what they see necessary to protect their interests in the region. In fact, what better time for a country to aggressively pursue a particular policy approach than when the U.S., U.K., and to a large extent the U.N., are focused on issues within Iraq and Afghanistan. It is no secret that the U.S. is no fan of the UIC, but that is much different than suggesting Ethiopa and the United States are working together to destroy the UIC. Ethiopa has its own interests.

[KAding]

this was even stated by the editoral of the independent newspaper in the UK which is strictly secular and athiest.

I assume you mean this editorial:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/lea...cle2110282.ece

It includes the claim that the hand of the United States, which also fears a fundamentalist Islamic regime in Somalia, can also be detected behind Ethiopia's action. Yet this is very vague, how can it be 'detected' then? What exactly has the US done?

The same question to you, could you elaborate how exactly you believe the US is involved. With money? Militarily? Or merely by not opposing it?

[KAding]

I'm thinking it's fairly safe to say the Somalis are not all either supporters of the ICU or all supporters of the internationally recognized government. They are probably quite divided on the issue as well, so I'm wary of these black-white statements on 'what Somalies think'.

[SilentObserver]

Ethiopa has its own interests.

True.

I'm thinking it's fairly safe to say the Somalis are not all either supporters of the ICU or all supporters of the internationally recognized government. They are probably quite divided on the issue as well, so I'm wary of these black-white statements on 'what Somalies think'.

Exactly. We should even take what people with family 'connections' say with a grain of salt. They are giving an opinion based on the bias of their family view. When you talk to other Somaliis, they have a completely different view. We should use or intelligence to weigh out all info and statements before drawing our own conclusions.

[i_m_tipu]

I hate to be picky, but there is no 'proof' at all. All that is is CNN quoting one person's (who has no connection with the US government) opinion.




As you should be perfectly well aware, it is virtually impossible to 'prove' that somebody isn't doing something. The emphasis is on the person who is claiming something is being done to prove it... that should only take one piece of evidence, if it is good enough. You have no such evidence of US funding of Ethiopia for this campaign.

ohh..
Why u say that is from a person. Every report is from one person.

Where u find author name on that article.
The news is from CNN officially. That means CNN bear responsibility of all portion of that report.

Anyway Do u want me to believe U.S Govt. confess of their unjustified involvement in Somalia. Where the whole world continuously questioning them about the justification of Iraq war.

Can u pls tell when the govt. of U.S asked about the unjustified U.S involvement in Somalia. They kept silent.

Why they did not want to give comment????

Why they don’t deny their unjustified involvement????

Does not it proof U.S have unjustified involvement in Somalia.

i saw a poll offered on that time to American people. i think u also seen it
like to post it again.

Do you think the U.S. should be supporting warlords in Somalia?
Yes
No

poll result
yes 19% 539 votes

no 81% 2255 votes

And I really don’t understand what proof need to be proven.

It something like a judge running a case of a murderer where at the end he found more than enough evidence of his crime and he punish him according to the law. But murderer does not say by his own mouth that he murder nor he denies it (very rare thing). (Except abnormal man no criminal will confess of his own mistake)

Now people like u saying the murder is innocent he has to involvement to that murder as he never say it from his mouth that he murder.

:)

[Trumble]

ohh..
Why u say that is from a person. Every report is from one person.

Where u find author name on that article.
The news is from CNN officially. That means CNN bear responsibility of all portion of that report.

Have you actually read the article? It says

John Prendergast, an analyst for the Washington-based International Crisis Group, said the Islamic militia was likely to be too busy securing the territory it has recently captured to establish a new government, but might negotiate "a very specific role" within the transitional government.

"For now, no one is going to view them as the government in Mogadishu," he told CNN. "There's still too much flux and too much uncertainty going forward."

......

But Prendergast said U.S. operatives had been supporting the secular warlords, many of whom were the same militia leaders who fought pitched battles in the streets of Mogadishu in the 1990s.

CNN do indeed have responsibility to ensure that what they report is correct, which is why they make it quite clear that what is being reported is what they were told by one individual, specifically Mr Prendergast (who is not a CNN employee) . Prendergast did not write the report, as you correctly say authorship is not identified. There is no implication that CNN shares Prenderghast's opinion or has adopted that opinion as it's own. If you think about it your perception is nonsense; it would mean news media could never be in a position to report alternative points of view on anything.

All of which, yet again, is totally irrelevant to the point. Nobody is seriously denying that the US may well have been involved in throwing a few dollars the way of warlords opposed to the UIC. The issue here, though, is whether the Ethiopian action was directly funded and instigated by the US. I still await any evidence at all ('proof' is obviously far too ambitious) that it was.

[root]

Who exactly is backing the Islamists?

The Ethiopian forces, who back Somali's transitional government, are now reported to be closing in on an estimated 3,000 Islamist fighters in Kismayo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6219763.stm

It seems the UIC may well find itself trapped between Kismayo and the Kenyan border.

[Dawud_uk]

Who exactly is backing the Islamists?



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6219763.stm

It seems the UIC may well find itself trapped between Kismayo and the Kenyan border.

the point is the muslims can always come back and fight again another day, even if you wipe them all out the idiology still remains and we actually look forward to death.

to us fighting brings one of two victories, martyrdom or victory over the enemies of Allah. either is good for us.

[KAding]

Who exactly is backing the Islamists?

Well, the UN report from 22nd of November has this to say on it:
http://www.un.org/Docs/journal/asp/ws.asp?m=S/2006/913

The Islamic Courts Union (ICU) has become the pre-eminent force in the central and southern regions. With clearly visible momentum, bolstered by aggressive support from seven States.
[...]
The means effectively consist of overall military capability, including an increasingly organized military-style force, as opposed to the loose patchwork of autonomous and independently operating militias prevalent during the warlord era; military command and control; military advice, direction and guidance; diverse forms of military training; arms and the military materiel and logistics necessary to support military operations; and financial and economic strength, both self-generated, through large and affiliated business operations, and from gifts and donations from outside Somalia. ICU also relies to a very considerable extent on State support, including from Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, Saudi Arabia and the Syrian Arab Republic, to maintain its military capability. In sum, its objective successes are as much a clear manifestation of the combined effect of all of these characteristics as a demonstration of its intent.

On arms in Somalia in general (the TFG is the transitional government):

More broadly, the principal sources for the overall military build-up involving arms, military materiel and foreign military personnel can be identified as 10 States: Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, Saudi Arabia, the Syrian Arab Republic, Uganda and Yemen. Of those States, seven are aligned with ICU: Djibouti, Egypt, Eritrea, the Islamic Republic of Iran, the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, Saudi Arabia and the Syrian Arab Republic; the remaining three States, Ethiopia, Uganda and Yemen, are aligned with TFG.

Good thing people on this forum have figured out the truth: the US is to blame ;). Silly UN and their reports. :rollseyes.

Seriously though, the report is a great read, I recommend it to anyone interested in the conflict :thumbs_up. Here is another extract:

7. The majority of arms provided to ICU by States — seven of them — and arms traders include the types that are typically used in Somalia. But, ominously, new and more sophisticated types of weapons are also coming into Somalia, including man-portable surface-to-air missiles such as the Strela-2 and 2M, also known as the SA-7a and 7b “Grail”, and the SA-6 “Gainful” low-to-medium altitude surface-to-air missile. Other new types of arms include multiple rocket launchers and second-generation infrared-guided anti-tank weapons.

8. On the other hand, arms provided to TFG by States — three of them — and arms traders overwhelmingly include the types that are historically typical for the Somali environment, including assault rifles, a variety of machine guns and anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns, anti-personnel and anti-tank mines and large quantities of ammunition.

[guyabano]

yep.all Christian states seem to be enthusiaistic about calling Islamists as terrorists and fight them.

what a shortminded BS you post here ! Hmp ! None ist enthusiastic. This just happen in your mind !

[ocacia]

AVARALLAH U shouldnt accuse the USA of these wars, cleary they made a mistake, they didnt get bin ladin or the WMD, but everyone makes mistakes--it is human. shame about the dead Muslims.

funny it isnt a war on islam (which is in the way of their designs on oil) so y all the dead muslim bodies y all the islamaphobia, but they dont control the media so everytime we hear terror and islam i guess it is an accident.

[ocacia]

Rastafari

[Islamicboy]

AVARALLAH U shouldnt accuse the USA of these wars, cleary they made a mistake, they didnt get bin ladin or the WMD, but everyone makes mistakes--it is human. shame about the dead Muslims.

funny it isnt a war on islam (which is in the way of their designs on oil) so y all the dead muslim bodies y all the islamaphobia, but they dont control the media so everytime we hear terror and islam i guess it is an accident.

Good Point! I ask the same questions