Muslims request praying in Cordoba’s Cathedral

[sonz]

Representatives from the Spanish Muslim community have reportedly appealed to Pope Benedict XVI to allow Muslims prostrate themselves in worship in Cordoba Cathedral, which was built as a mosque during Spain’s centuries of Islamic rule, and converted into a church in the 13th century, according to Reuters.

“What we wanted was not to take over that holy place, but to create in it, together with you and other faiths, an ecumenical space unique in the world which would have been of great significance in bringing peace to humanity,” the Spain’s Islamic Board, said in the letter.

But senior Spanish Catholic clergy rejected the Muslims requests.

Spain’s Catholic Bishops Conference argues it’s not prepared to negotiate the building’s shared use with followers of other faiths.

Muslim worshippers are usually stopped by security guards who prevent from praying inside the old Mosque.

“There are reactionary elements within the Catholic Church, and when they hear about the construction of a mosque, or Muslim teachings in state schools, or about veils, they see it as a sign that we are growing and they oppose it,” said the board’s general secretary, Mansur Escudero.

Cordoba’s Cathedral, known as the Cathedral-Mosque, was built when much of Spain was the Moorish territory of Al-Andalus, a major centre of Islamic thought and architecture.

Córdoba, now the only provincial capital in Spain where the city government is controlled by a leftist coalition named Izquierda Unida, whose main component is the Communist Party of Spain, was taken by the Christians from the Muslims as part of the Reconquista in 1236.

It later became a center of activity against in remaining Islamic regions.

[Woodrow]

No matter what my feelings are about this. This statement by the Bishops is very hypocritical.

Spain’s Catholic Bishops Conference argues it’s not prepared to negotiate the building’s shared use with followers of other faiths.

They may have valid reasons not to share it, but to say it is because they are not ready to share with other faiths is a direct contradiction for their stated stance on wanting to be ecumenical.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you sonz and Woodrow;

It seems very sad that people cannot brake down the barriers that separate them. I would hope and pray that some time in the future this will change.

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[rubiesand]

It's a beautiful place. I hope one day Muslims can pray there again.

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[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

It used to be a mosque. The most they can do is share it, if not give it back. No one would wana give away something beautiful.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Al-Andalus.. the only reason Allaah removed it from our hands was because we preferred this world over the hereafter. I really love that land, may Allaah allow us to be strong and just once again. Ameen.

I wonder why the city is called Cordoba, maybe because of the famous imaam and scholar of this ummah, Imam Qurtubi? Allaahu a'lam.


Muslim Spain
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...amic%20history

[snakelegs]

i know this was built by muslims, but would it be permissable under islam to prostate in prayer in a cathedral full of statues, etc.?

[Woodrow]

i know this was built by muslims, but would it be permissable under islam to prostate in prayer in a cathedral full of statues, etc.?

No, But I believe concessions could be made so a prayer area could be designated for Muslims. I do not know the lay out of the Masjid/Cathedral but I would suspect it has 2 prayer areas.

[snakelegs]

well, it doesn't sound like the catholics are going to be reasonable - actually, the whole thing is ironic.
i've seen pictures of this masjid - it is very beautiful.

[Woodrow]

I just found a link with many pictures. Quite interesting. I was surprised to see it has very few statues.


http://www.infocordoba.com/spain/and...ue_2/index.htm

[netprince]

The fall of spain was a sad day in our history, but like the brother said earlier we couldnt keep it because we didnt deserve to keep it. .:cry:

Al-Andalus.. the only reason Allaah removed it from our hands was because we preferred this world over the hereafter. I really love that land, may Allaah allow us to be strong and just once again. Ameen.

Inshallah i am hoping to visit spain some time next year to visit some of these places and seeing first hand what places of beauty a real islamic civilisation can produce. Some of the achievements of the islamic civilisation are truly amazing.

It used to be a mosque. The most they can do is share it, if not give it back. No one would wana give away something beautiful.

well, it doesn't sound like the catholics are going to be reasonable - actually, the whole thing is ironic.
i've seen pictures of this masjid - it is very beautiful.

Just to put things into some kind of context, i have pasted a small section from wikipedia regarding hagia sofia

Hagia Sophia, (the Church of) Holy Wisdom, now known as the Ayasofya Museum, is a former Eastern Orthodox church converted to a mosque in 1453 by the Turks, and converted into a museum in 1935. It is located in Istanbul, Turkey. It is traditionally considered one of the great buildings in history. Its conquest by the Ottomans at the fall of Constantinople is considered one of the great tragedies of Christianity by the Greek Orthodox faithful.

We all mourn that which we have lost, but sooner or later we have to stop the mourning and move on. Where are we building the masjids and places of beauty that future generations will look at in amazement??

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

thats true bro. what u said at the end :)

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam

It is not the building that matter but the hearts that enter it.

Do we seek to pray in buiding with granduer while our hearts are in an abyss?

Is it that important to pray in such places?

Remember that even the Kaabah is man made and was destroyed by the hands of mena nd nature...So it is not important where we pray but our state of being.

[M for Maliki]

The fall of spain was a sad day in our history, but like the brother said earlier we couldnt keep it because we didnt deserve to keep it. .:cry:

How did we not deserve to keep it?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

the cool thing is it still has Arabic inscriptions in around the mosque :)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace to you all

Some forty years ago I went to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is said to be the tomb of Christ. The thing that lives in my memory is groups of pilgrims of many faiths praying together at alters within the church.

I remember waiting respectfully with my Catholic group whilst a group of Orthodox Christians were saying their prayers in front of one of the alters. When they finished and moved on we took their place and prayed.

We must continue to pray for peace in our own hearts, that we are able to be more understanding of people of other faiths. There is one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen, somehow we need a greater understanding of oneness despite all our differences.

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[Dawud_uk]

i am looking forward to one day going here and just gonna start praying. this is a house of Allah and if the security guards want to stop me they will have to bodily carry me away because that is the only way i am stopping my salaah.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Dawud_uk]

on the plus side...

there are quite a huge number of the young people in spain coming to islam, it was after all the religion of many of their ancestors and a deen (way of life) that makes sense unlike many aspects of christian worship and faith.

there are also 800,000 muslims out of 45 million in spain, we breed faster and more people are reverting so it is only a matter of time. do the maths yourself and soon corduba and all of al-andalus will be ours again soon.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[IzakHalevas]

There is a place I would love to pray but since it is under full Muslim control courtesy of the Israeli goverment, I was unable to when I tried to visit.

Actually, a non-Muslim who visits there can be kicked out if they utter a word of prayer by the Muslim authorities in charge of the site. So I think we can all relate to one another after all.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Jayda;

I have to say that I am also upset after reading your post, and I am a Catholic.

I lived in Winchester for some years, and there are signs around the city reminding us of the times Catholics and Protestants were killing each other in major battles. Over the last few centuries people of peace from both factions have gradually broken down many of the barriers that existed between them. Today Christians of many denominations in Winchester are able to pray together and work together.

Protestants will welcome Catholics into their church to share communion, but Catholics seem reluctant to welcome Protestants to the Lords table.

The only thing lacking between them is brotherly love.

Now I have to ask if Christians can progress from killing each other to praying together; why can’t Muslims and Christians pray together. There is one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen; we are all created by the same God regardless of what we choose to believe.

Are the barriers in our own heart? Or does God want us to be segregated?

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith tolerance and friendship

Eric

[England]

This maybe the same thing I'm talking about or something similar but they asked for something like this once before in Spain and Spanish gave them a no. It might have been to do with building a mosque where one once stood.

Spain is a very religious catholic country, they're not like the UK or the US where they will do everything to please muslims.

[Bittersteel]

idol worshipping mosques is bad.real bad.that's weakness.

[M for Maliki]

i am looking forward to one day going here and just gonna start praying. this is a house of Allah and if the security guards want to stop me they will have to bodily carry me away because that is the only way i am stopping my salaah.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Don't do that. We have been specifically commanded not to "rock the boat" as it where, especially in a country where we are an extreme minority.

[M for Maliki]

on the plus side...

there are quite a huge number of the young people in spain coming to islam,

I've heard this quite frequently and hope it is true, in sha Allah. You wouldn't happen to have statistics, would you?

it was after all the religion of many of their ancestors and a deen (way of life) that makes sense unlike many aspects of christian worship and faith.

No offense to the christians on board having been a roman catholic and studied christian dogma with canon doctors, I can honestly say christian theology holds about as much water as a sieve. What irks me even more is when Pope Benedict starts talking about christianity as a "faith of reason and logic" when at its heart it is a mystery religion (try explaining the trinity completely, for example)

there are also 800,000 muslims out of 45 million in spain, we breed faster and more people are reverting so it is only a matter of time. do the maths yourself and soon corduba and all of al-andalus will be ours again soon.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

The breeding faster statistic usually doesn't apply to Muslims in western countries, or if it does, it stops after the second generation. Large families are a general byproduct of lowered educational opportunities and generally shorter lifespans in the "old countries". When immigrants arrive the standard of living for them increases dramatically, as well as opportunities for higher education and the jobs that follow, and everyone knows nothing kills the desire to breed like work.

[glo]

I just found a link with many pictures. Quite interesting. I was surprised to see it has very few statues.


http://www.infocordoba.com/spain/and...ue_2/index.htm

Greetings, Woodrow

I was just thinking about finding some picture of Cordoba's Cathdral, when I came upon your post and the link. Thank you for posting it.

Such a beautiful place!

Peace

[glo]

there are also 800,000 muslims out of 45 million in spain, we breed faster and more people are reverting so it is only a matter of time. do the maths yourself and soon corduba and all of al-andalus will be ours again soon.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Now I have to ask if Christians can progress from killing each other to praying together; why can’t Muslims and Christians pray together. There is one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen; we are all created by the same God regardless of what we choose to believe.

Are the barriers in our own heart? Or does God want us to be segregated?

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith tolerance and friendship

Eric

Greetings, Eric and Abu Abdullah

I started a thread here, which you might like to read and contribute your views in ... everybody else is invited too, of course! :D
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-together.html

peace

[Dawud_uk]

I've heard this quite frequently and hope it is true, in sha Allah. You wouldn't happen to have statistics, would you?



No offense to the christians on board having been a roman catholic and studied christian dogma with canon doctors, I can honestly say christian theology holds about as much water as a sieve. What irks me even more is when Pope Benedict starts talking about christianity as a "faith of reason and logic" when at its heart it is a mystery religion (try explaining the trinity completely, for example)





The breeding faster statistic usually doesn't apply to Muslims in western countries, or if it does, it stops after the second generation. Large families are a general byproduct of lowered educational opportunities and generally shorter lifespans in the "old countries". When immigrants arrive the standard of living for them increases dramatically, as well as opportunities for higher education and the jobs that follow, and everyone knows nothing kills the desire to breed like work.

i would disagree,

most of my friends are 2nd or 3rd generation muslim and still breeding like rabbits lol.

the thing is having lots of kids is encouraged in our religion so if people keep their deen they will be likely to keep having the huge numbers of kids as it was encouraged by rasoolullah saws.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Dawud_uk]

Don't do that. We have been specifically commanded not to "rock the boat" as it where, especially in a country where we are an extreme minority.

commanded by who?

i have never heard such a command from any islamic figure not to pray here and my lord tells me to pray so if go to visit this place i will pray there and **** their ideas on not praying here.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[ManchesterFolk]

There is a place I would love to pray but since it is under full Muslim control courtesy of the Israeli goverment, I was unable to when I tried to visit.

Actually, a non-Muslim who visits there can be kicked out if they utter a word of prayer by the Muslim authorities in charge of the site. So I think we can all relate to one another after all.

It is sad that no one here understands how relevant this post is.

[- Qatada -]

It is sad that no one here understands how relevant this post is.

The world belongs to God, therefore i should be able to pray in the white house right? How come i'm not allowed there?

Similarly, Allaah has made some places for believers as a sanctuary so they aren't under a threat by any disbelievers [of some who may even have a bad intention to harm the believers] so the believers can worship God without being under the threat of being harmed. And Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.

[Fishman]

There is a place I would love to pray but since it is under full Muslim control courtesy of the Israeli goverment, I was unable to when I tried to visit.

Actually, a non-Muslim who visits there can be kicked out if they utter a word of prayer by the Muslim authorities in charge of the site. So I think we can all relate to one another after all.

:sl:
Last time I heard, the Wailing Wall is under Jewish control. As for al-Aqsa, it is a Masjid, and has always been a Masjid, so it belongs to Muslims. Couldn't you just pray on part of the temple mount that does not have a Masjid on it?

No matter what happens, al-Aqsa will probably never be given to Jews by the Muslims, because in holiness it's only two places down from Makkah. Muslims Also believe in Solomon (pbuh), so the Temple is also a very important place for us too, kind of like an 'old Makkah', if I wanted to explain it in simple terms. So the Temple Mount cannot be some sort of 'Jews only' holy place. It wasn't 'stolen' like the Corboda Mosque, it has been a holy place to Muslims since it was founded.
:w:

[ManchesterFolk]

Last time I heard, the Wailing Wall is under Jewish control. As for al-Aqsa, it is a Masjid, and has always been a Masjid, so it belongs to Muslims.

Oh really? There was never a Temple that was devoted to a different type of riualistic worship that had nothing to do with Islam before the two Mosques on the Temple Mount were built? Are these just Zionist lies to?

So the Temple Mount cannot be some sort of 'Jews only' holy place.

Then why can it be a "muslim only" holy place?

It wasn't 'stolen' like the Corboda Mosque, it has been a holy place to Muslims since it was founded.

Jews believe and I believe have a lot of historical proof that the Temple and sacrifices that occured on the Temple mount longe before the Quran were according to the Jewish tradition, since there was no Islamic one.

An Islamic presence in the Holy Land is relativly new compared to others. And please don't get started on "early jews were muslims" because that is as useless of an argument as quoting the Quran to prove a point to a Christian is.

[- Qatada -]

Manchesterfolk, first of all - the Qur'an actually refutes the christians so it isn't useless.


Regarding the early jews being muslims, yeh they were because muslim linguistically comes from the root word islaam which actually means submission. Therefore a muslim is someone who submits, which means that the early jews were actually muslims because they submitted to God.



Peace.

[ManchesterFolk]

Manchesterfolk, first of all - the Qur'an actually refutes the christians so it isn't useless.

How? Christians do not believe it to be the truth, so in a debate it is useless to quote the Quran.

Regarding the early jews being muslims, yeh they were because muslim linguistically comes from the root word islaam which actually means submission. Therefore a muslim is someone who submits, which means that the early jews were actually muslims because they submitted to God.

Well that is just one opinion, that you may accept but many don't.

[- Qatada -]

How? Christians do not believe it to be the truth, so in a debate it is useless to quote the Quran.

They might not, but at the same time it refutes their points. So unlike the bible, where 'you have to read it with the spirit' - one can read the Qur'an and realise its logic and truth. The only reason someone will reject it is due to their own arrogance, not because of the Qur'an itself.

Well that is just one opinion, that you may accept but many don't.

Even if you don't accept it, linguistically its correct. Judaism just comes from the word Juda anyway, so its not really anything to do with their faith. Even jews nowadays are muslims if they've submitted themselves.



Peace.

[sudais1]

i know this was built by muslims, but would it be permissable under islam to prostate in prayer in a cathedral full of statues, etc.?

The prophet Prayed and salah in a church i think in abisynya

[ManchesterFolk]

'have to read it with the spirit'

What?

Even if you don't accept it, linguistically its correct. Judaism just comes from the word Juda anyway, so its not really anything to do with their faith

That is the English word, the word for Jew in Hebrew is "Yehudi". But why explain this, I can point to where I learned it from instead. :)

http://www.islamicboard.com/471156-post420.html

The word "Jew" comes from the word "Yehudi" in Hebrew.

The Talmud (Megillah 13a) says that the name Yehudi applies to anyone who rejects idolatry and follows/recongnizes that there is one true G-d and the laws he has given us are in the Torah (uncorrupted ).

The word "Hodaah," which is the root of the word Yehudi (and Yehudah), means to acknowledge.

So Judaism in Hebrew means to acknowledge one true G-d.

The name "Yehudi" or Jew was also used to describe a descendant from the Ancient Hebrews who became the Jews when the Torah was recieved at Mt. Sinai.

[- Qatada -]

What?

Yeah, thats what i mean. I'll quote you something which glo's posted regarding this.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

[...]

We preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. (1Corinthians 18-19 and 23-25)

http://www.islamicboard.com/611271-post10.html


She posted that just today when AvarAllahNoor asked her regarding the trinity which you can refer to here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/611264-post9.html


God doesn't send down a faith which can't be comprehended by the human mind. Because God knows that we are His creation, so He sends messengers to make the message clear, that God doesn't want us to worship and obey the creation if these people are contradicting the law of God. The only reason someone would reject islaam is because they either don't understand its truth, or if they just too arrogant to learn more about it/accept it.

That is the English word, the word for Jew in Hebrew is "Yehudi". But why explain this, I can point to where I learned it from instead. :)

http://www.islamicboard.com/471156-post420.html

Why the Jews were called `Yahud

The Jews are the followers of Prophet Musa [Moses], who used to refer to the Tawrah for judgment. Yahud is a word that means, `repenting', just as Musa said,


[إِنَّا هُدْنَـآ إِلَيْكَ]


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=2196




Peace.

[Fishman]

Even jews nowadays are muslims if they've submitted themselves.

:sl:
I disagree here, since Jews don't follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), which is now one of the prerequisites of being Muslim. And despite being monotheists, modern Jews do have a number of beliefs which would not be acceptable within Islam, such as their beliefs about the Messiah.
:w:

[- Qatada -]

:sl:
I disagree here, since Jews don't follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), which is now one of the prerequisites of being Muslim. And despite being monotheists, modern Jews do have a number of beliefs which would not be acceptable within Islam, such as their beliefs about the Messiah.
:w:

I meant linguistically only bro :)



:salamext:

[Fishman]

I meant linguistically only bro :)



:salamext:

:sl:
But if they do not accept the Laws revealed to Muhammad (pbuh), they have not sumitted to God (swt).
:w:

[SilentObserver]

I meant linguistically only bro :)



:salamext:

Then why use it as a supportive arguement? The topic was not about linguistics.

[ManchesterFolk]

Why the Jews were called `Yahud

The Jews are the followers of Prophet Musa [Moses], who used to refer to the Tawrah for judgment. Yahud is a word that means, `repenting', just as Musa said,

Oh? Where did Moses say "Yahud" means repenting?

I am more inclined to believe the hebrew speaking jew about what "yehud" means rather than a vague islamic site.

[Fishman]

Then why use it as a supportive arguement? The topic was not about linguistics.

:sl:
Because this off-topic argument that I probably started is about liguistics! :enough!: :enough!: :enough!:

I said that the early Jews were Muslims (therefore meaning that Muslims have just as much right to the Temple as Jews), so, naturally, somebody disagreed with me and said they were not. Then Fi-Sab joined in and said that they were by definition, since a Muslim is a person who submits to God (swt).

I would say that they were also Muslims because they believed in the first part of the Shahada, that there is no God (swt) but God (swt).
:w:

[SilentObserver]

:sl:
Because this off-topic argument that I probably started is about liguistics! :enough!: :enough!: :enough!:

I said that the early Jews were Muslims (therefore meaning that Muslims have just as much right to the Temple as Jews), so, naturally, somebody disagreed with me and said they were not. Then Fi-Sab joined in and said that they were by definition, since a Muslim is a person who submits to God (swt).

I would say that they were also Muslims because they believed in the first part of the Shahada, that there is no God (swt) but God (swt).
:w:

I will attempt to tie this back to the topic.

Using the 'linguistically speaking' arguement does not really say anything (pardon the pun). The reality is, we all know the difference between a jew and a muslim, and we all know who we are talking about when we speak of a 'muslim'. For the sake of clarity, we all know that we are speaking of a follower of the prophet Mohammud. To often this 'linguistic arguement' is brought up as a red herring to distract from the main topic of discussion. It is a debate tactic to confuse one's opponent. An annoying one I might add.
So, let's not try to confuse the issue anymore and stick to the topic.

There are holy places that important to jews that muslims have taken and built on, christians have muslim places and built over, etc. etc. I don't think anyone is going to be giving anything back anytime soon. Ownership rules, and the rules must be respected as set out by the owner. I think there will eventually be a compromise though.