Why not islam?

[syilla]

hello for the non-muslims

i thought to post as anonymous....but like bro woodrow say...i can't even spell it. So i can't even create the account itself :-[

but i really like to know your own opinion....

1.what do you think of islam?

2.Why don't you choose islam and be a muslim?

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

Thats all for now....and i hope i didn't offend anyone.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

[Kittygyal]

Assalmualikum Warhmathullahi Warbarakathuhu

aww Ukthi don't worry speak aloud best thing :)

as this is for "non-muslims" am out inshallah

Ma'assalama

[Trumble]

i thought to post as anonymous....but like bro woodrow say...i can't even spell it.

:D

but i really like to know your own opinion....

1.what do you think of islam?

I think it is the most mature (in terms of theological development), consistent and indeed plausible of the monotheistic religions. People who follow the teachings of Islam (not the distorted versions of it) will be good and happy people and you can't ask much more than that of a religion.

2.Why don't you choose islam and be a muslim?

I don't believe in God, or at least a personal God in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic sense. I could write for a week on why, but the main reasons are;

- I have spiritual beliefs that I find both more logical and spiritually satisfying (including a limited element of direct experience) than Islam which require no God, if not necessarily actually excluding the existence of one or more of them.

- The 'problem of evil'. I simply do not believe that a God with the properties ascribed to Him would create the world as it is. I've seen all the responses, and find none even remotely convincing.

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

No, or at least what there are are probably cultural objections rather than purely religious ones. It's hard to say, really, when there is often little consistency within Islam. For example both the Taliban and current Iranian regimes were/are considered suitably 'Islamic', but their attitudes to women, particularly regarding education, seem to come from different planets, let alone Qur'anic and Hadith interpretations. I think the Taliban position on that issue is both barbaric and utterly mindless - how can you completely waste the potential of one half of your population? - while that of Iran is an example to the rest of the world. How, according to Islam, can they both be right?

[Keltoi]

1. To be frank, as a religion I have a high opinion of it, as an ideology I have a negative opinion of it. I would prefer to leave it at that.

2. I cannot and will not be a Muslim because I do not believe Muhammad was a prophet of God. That isn't intended to insult anyone or attack anything, it is simply my belief.

3. As for rulings in Islam, I'm afraid I don't follow Islamic rulings closely enough to have any particular problem there.

None of this is to say I don't respect Islam, because I do. However, the question was a fairly direct question, and there is no need to beat around the bush about my personal reasons for not being a Muslim.

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[glo]

hello for the non-muslims

i thought to post as anonymous....but like bro woodrow say...i can't even spell it. So i can't even create the account itself :-[

but i really like to know your own opinion....

Hey, sister. Don't be shy to ask. No need to go anonymous! :)

1.what do you think of islam?

I have developed a great respect for my Muslim brothers and sisters, as I have learned about the level of devotion and commitment they have for God. I see how they strive to please and serve God by obeying his laws.

I believe Islam teaches peace and tolerance (despite some people managing to paint a different picture!), and that much of it's teachings is beneficial for healthy and wholesome living.

I see Muslims who take their desire and their commitment to serve and please God more seriously than many Christians I know.
Surrounding myself with Muslims has made me check how I myself stand with God and has made me more sincere in my own faith.

But with all the beauty and wisdom I see in Islam, I believe that it misses the true nature of God. It does neither recognise nor understand the expression of God's love for us in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's a terrible loss to all who follow Islam, because God's grace and love for us is so much greater than Muslims realise! :cry:
(Just my own view, of course)

2.Why don't you choose islam and be a muslim?

Because I am assured of Jesus' divinity, and I could never deny it.
This Bible verse speaks reflects my feelings about this very well:

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You know, several Muslims in this forum have commented at one time or another about 'how much like a Muslim I sound', and have asked 'whether I did not want to consider Islam'.
I cannot - for the reasons given above.
My salvation comes through Jesus Christ, and nobody else ... and that will never change.

(I would like to ask other members to demonstrate their respect for my beliefs by neither questioning nor criticising what I have posted here. This is a profession of my beliefs, and I am not willing to debate it here.)

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

None that spring to mind at the moment.

Thank you for asking these questions, Syilla. I am sure that this will be an interesting thread.
I am looking forward to the replies of others. :)

Peace

[czgibson]

hello for the non-muslims

Greetings and salutations to you.

1.what do you think of islam?

I think it's a fairly consistent example of the monotheistic belief system. Muslims themselves are usually devoted to their religion in a way that is exceptional in the world. On the down side, Islam doesn't seem to me to be particularly receptive to new ideas, and it actively discourages independent thought.

2.Why don't you choose islam and be a muslim?

Because I don't believe Islam is true - simple as that.

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

The belief in:

- an all-powerful deity who nevertheless allows suffering and evil,
- who is perfect in every way and yet whose creation shows evidence of sub-optimal design,
- who is omnibenevolent but imprisons those who disagree with him in everlasting torture,
- and who demands constant applause and slavery from all of humanity forever

has always seemed to me to be a clear example of the human imagination working overtime rather than a description of something real.

That's the most important of many areas where I disagree wih Islamic thinking.

Thats all for now....and i hope i didn't offend anyone.

Me too!

Thank you for asking.

Peace

[Les_Nubian]

Glo, I just wanted to tell you that Muslims DO understand how gracious and merciful and loving God is towards us. This is very obvious. Every single sura (but 1) in the Qur'an begins with "In the name of Allah, most gracious most merciful". We just don't believe that God manifests himself as a lesser human being and then kills himself to save us. But that's another story lol. Just wanted to say that.

And to Mr. Trumble, I just can't comprehend how someone can look at anything that exists within our planet like a car or a watch and automatically think that it has a creator/designer, but when they look at this entire vast universe and the planets and galaxies and stars within it, it has no creator/designer. That's...fascinating.

[behlu-gahlu]

hello for the non-muslims

1.what do you think of islam?

2.Why don't you choose islam and be a muslim?

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

Thats all for now....and i hope i didn't offend anyone.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Shamjind
I like you topic,

1 Halisamal The religion of Islam can be originated from adam, texts of men and from the hasjid (the non or being) and can come mabey further from man jadasin. Today muslims have conformed and fit more into societys other then there hasindjana(from were the origins of islam have come. Islam can cover all ranges of everything in the world from God to paper to people and issues ideas, not just the mana or the way of islam. Islam can cover all things. As for the followings I see that many people follow diffrent traditions in islam . It is choice I find it some what enlightening.

2 I was raised catholic but have chosen many more diffrent choices, not eating meats, not cutting or combing my hairs wanting to live a more peaceful simple life not wanting to have many things like computers tv much food a big house(i live with my parents now) mahnjin'. I have chosen ways of Isalm so being muslim is a part of a person, I have read quran but I do not read much quran or bible beauce of it taking from trees and paper. but the tradition of Adam Mahnsin before expelling from eden and being a mahnsin eah in the will of God and following is what I do.

3 I agree with some ethics like fasting, women being more traditional, respecting God and the earth.
I disagree with reading quran because of the paper issue; lahdin ( the tablets of Moses and inpiration of God is ok with me.

{Covering up and clothing, beating your wife, eating anything} Thease I can disagree with because God does not eat and does not clothe but allows for us to do so.

Manaharahminj

[Jayda]

hola syilla,

if i may ask... why is it that you want to know?

gracias

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Curiousity gets us all :D

[snakelegs]

hello for the non-muslims

i thought to post as anonymous....but like bro woodrow say...i can't even spell it. So i can't even create the account itself :-[

but i really like to know your own opinion....

1.what do you think of islam?

i like the fact that it is a whole way of life and the fact that it believes in one god. i also like the fact that learning is encouraged and admired.

2.Why don't you choose islam and be a muslim?

because i don't like religion and don't feel a need for one in order to worship god.

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

mainly - the fact that it claims to be The One True Religion (i don't believe in such a thing) and the fact that it proselytizes.

Thats all for now....and i hope i didn't offend anyone.

no worry!

[ManchesterFolk]

beating your wife,

What exactly do you mean by that?

[Trumble]

And to Mr. Trumble, I just can't comprehend how someone can look at anything that exists within our planet like a car or a watch and automatically think that it has a creator/designer, but when they look at this entire vast universe and the planets and galaxies and stars within it, it has no creator/designer. That's...fascinating.

I think you have misunderstood me.

I said

The 'problem of evil'. I simply do not believe that a God with the properties ascribed to Him would create the world as it is. I've seen all the responses, and find none even remotely convincing

On this context, why I am not a muslim, it is not the creation of the universe that concerns me. It's this planet that we live on, now, and throughout the history of humanity; not the wonders of the cosmos but the kid in Mogadishu screaming her head off because a bomb has just blown her leg off. Starvation, pain, war, misery, suffering. To me it is simply absurd that a perfectly benign and omnipotent being could create such a thing, that by definition, he must have chosen that those things should exist. It is absurd that his 'perfect' creation could be something as unpleasant and destructive as mankind has a tendency to be. As I said, I've seen all the arguments as to why God might do that and find them totally unconvincing, if not just (IMVHO) plain nonsense.

[duskiness]

i thought to post as anonymous....

I was also thinking about replying to you as anonymous :giggling:

1.what do you think of islam?

I have respect for it, and i think there is a kind of "magic" in it. but it's hard to name what exactly it is...

2.Why don't you choose islam and be a muslim?

I don't believe Muhammad was a prophet. I don't believe Quran is God's word.
oh...and I believe in Jesus Christ - Word of God...so you see - it would be quite hard for me to be a Muslim :D

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

concept of war and possition of women. probably I feel "uncomfortable" with whole "legal" aspect of Islam :-[

Thats all for now....and i hope i didn't offend anyone.

it is my turn to hope I didn't offend you :phew

[snakelegs]

duskiness - welcome back!!!! :happy:

[duskiness]

Thank you :D I'm also glad to see my favorite Snake with legs :)

[SilentObserver]

1.what do you think of islam?

I think it is a religion with some good ideas. I feel that the expectations that are put on followers (not necessarily by islam but by the interpretation of it) puts an unreasonable amount of pressure on some, causing hypocrisy, lying and anger. While others appear to be genuinely happy.

2.Why don't you choose islam and be a muslim?

I don't believe that it is correct or that Muhammud was a prophet.

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

No particular one that comes to mind right now. Just the idea of blind following to the point of closed-mindedness that no other opinion is even heard. This is not evident in all muslims, so I think it may just be in the way that some interpret the teachings.

[KAding]

Thanks for the question syllia :).

1.what do you think of islam?

Well, I have mixed feelings I must admit. On the bright side, theologically I think Islam pretty much has its act together. It is a lot more convincing than Christianity on the validity of its scriptures for example. It also seems much more rational than Christianity, desiring to strengthen its foundations with facts.

But perhaps that has a flip side. I must say Islam feels like fairly cold and legalistic religion, which seems spiritually weak. It's almost as if the rules outweigh the principles and the message. When I listen to Christians I hear nothing but 'love, love, love, love'. When I listen to Muslims it seems they talk most about doing A when confronted with B, like if its allowed to pop a pimple during Ramadan ;) :D. I get a feeling that there is a lot of "letter of the law" prevailing over the spirit of it. I'm sure you will disagree, but that is very much the impression I get to be honest.

2.Why don't you choose islam and be a muslim?

Because I don't feel God at the moment, nor do the rational arguments in favor of it appear very convincing. Especially the Christian/Jewish/Muslim concept of God seems unsatisfactory. Islam is an attractive religion in some ways though, for example the strong sense of brotherhood. But like I said, the concept of God behind it does not make sense. The problem of evil gets no real answer and the God as it is portrayed often seems vain, threatening and hostile. These are not qualities I respect in humans so I have trouble identifying with such a God.

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

It depends. Islam is not monolithic of course, and no doubt the overwhelming majority of its rulings make sense. But sometimes when I browse islam-qa.com I see the weirdest things. Let me make a small selection:

Example #1:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...neral%20church

Question: Is it permissible for a Muslim to attend the funeral of a non-Muslim friend if it is in the church, as a sign of respect for the deceased?

Answer: It is not permissible for the Muslim to attend the funeral of a kaafir or to enter their churches, even if that is a sign of respect etc, because attending the funeral is a way of showing love and respect, and it is not permissibl to show that towards a kaafir, according to the correct view. Moreover the questioner says, “to attend the funeral of a non-Muslim friend” – but it is not permissible for a Muslim to take a kaafir as a friend, because Allaah has commanded us to regard them as enemies, to shun them and to keep away from them.

With all due respect. But this just makes me feel sick. It's just vile hate speech. Luckily they are differences of opinion on stuff like this, but that it is even required to debate it within Islam makes me want to cry. Muslims sometime talk about non-Muslims as if they are beasts and subhumans. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of damage this view has done to dawah activities by sincere and more moderate Muslims.

Example #2
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...txt=concubines

Ruling on having intercourse with a slave woman when one has a wife

Answer: Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married. [...] A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a sariyyah (concubine) from the word sirr, which means marriage. [...] The scholars are unanimously agreed on that and it is not permissible for anyone to regard it as haraam or to forbid it. Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.

The fact that there are actually people out there that seem to think Islam teaches that:
1. Taking non-Muslim female civilians as slaves during war is normal
2. It's okay to use them for sex

Again, I know there are other Muslims who think there is no such consensus and that slavery is frowned upon by God. But again, that this even has to be debated is mind boggling. I know Muslims don't go around taking slaves, but that this is supposedly God's ruling according to these learned scholars of Islam is something that makes me doubt it can be the word of God.

Example 3: (last, but not least!)
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...ln=eng&txt=dog

Ruling on having a dog

Answer: Dogs are extremely naajis (impure, unclean).[...] Whoever keeps a dog in his house is denied the blessing of the angels [...] Keeping dogs nowadays is the habit of the kuffaar, who adopt them as friends, kiss them, let them lick them and their clothes, sleep with them and even leave them money in their wills. Keeping a dog is an imitation of the kuffaar.

I show this one as an example of the legalistic nature of Islam. You are denied blessing because you have a dog? The Islamic God judges people on whether you have a dog? It just doesn't make sense. God must judge purely on whether we do good or evil, whether we help others. That there even needs to be a ruling on things like this seems absurd to be honest. Besides, dogs can be such gentle and caring creatures. To hate them as much as the Quran does seems so, well, ungodly. Sounds more like whoever wrote on them being unclean must have been bitten by one at some point :).

Anyway, I hope I didn't offend anyone (I probably did though, for which I apologize :(). But you asked 'why not', which kinda means I must sum up the negative. But at least this way you get some insight in the mind of a non-Muslim like me. It might help you when you are ever required to do dawah :).

I hope I don't get banned :-[

[SilentObserver]

The dog one I wondered about. is it not allowed to own a dog at all? or just not in the house?

[glo]

Well, there are several cat threads going at the moment, so perhaps cats are permitted ...
After all they keep mice and rats a bay, and therefore prevent infestations and the spreading of disease.

[- Qatada -]

Anyone who wants to attack islaam, please leave the forum. We not forcing it upon you and this thread isn't created for that purpose.


Peace.

[Jayda]

I wasn't saying it to you Jayda [sorry if it caused offence], just referring to trumble mainly who's post i deleted.


You can refer to this link for the misconception regarding the word awliya here;

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#19



Peace.

gracias! this is what i meant, this is what janissary told me... im sorry i did not remember very well...

so does this mean that the person who said that other thing about not going to non muslims funerals and not being their friends is wrong?

[glo]

I wasn't saying it to you Jayda

I am glad you clarified that, Fi_Sabilillah. :)

I sense that some of us feel apprehensive about expressing any views about Islam which may be perceived as negative ... :X

I am glad that we are able and encouraged to do so (within forum rules).

Peace

[Jayda]

that is how i feel glo

i start lots of fights here when i do not mean to... so i am very jumpy... i must drive the mods insane (i am so sorry) because like half of everything i write i ask to be deleted...

i do not always know when my posts will start arguments otherwise i would not post them at all...

gracias

[- Qatada -]

Hi glo.


The reason why i deleted the previous post was because the person was acting sarcastic on purpose [and this person wasn't Jayda.] So i deleted it.


Jayda, if the scholar is saying that it's not permissible for us to go to a non muslim funeral, then if he has evidence from the Qur'an or authentic Sunnah to prove that, we believe it. However, i'll quote what the word awliya means from the link i posted before:

It becomes clear that the word Awliya cannot be taken as simply referring to friendship, as it contains a much more complex meaning, including dependence and guardianship. Therefore, a more accurate translation of the verse would be:

5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your protectors: They are but protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

[SilentObserver]

I am glad you clarified that, Fi_Sabilillah. :)

I sense that some of us feel apprehensive about expressing any views about Islam which may be perceived as negative ... :X

I am glad that we are able and encouraged to do so (within forum rules).

Peace

While this holds true for some mods that truly are fair (example:Woodrow), there are others (not mentioning any names) that have deleted posts of mine and others, that were honest answers to questions. The answer may not be exactly what they want to hear, but within forum rules. And as Jayda says, it makes you jumpy and reluctant to want to tell the truth.

This relates to the topic of this thread in that, it contributes to ones over all experience with islam and it's followers, and directly contributed to one of my answers.

[Jayda]

gracias Fi_Sabilillah!

[glo]

that is how i feel glo

i start lots of fights here when i do not mean to... so i am very jumpy... i must drive the mods insane (i am so sorry) because like half of everything i write i ask to be deleted...

i do not always know when my posts will start arguments otherwise i would not post them at all...

gracias

Greetings, dona annette isabel eliot-lerdo (baronesa) de tejada :D

I don't think you need to worry ... I always find your posts well thought through and politely worded.

Peace

[Jayda]

gracias glo! i think you are a very polite poster too!



...

is it possible this could be moved to an area where we could give anonymous answers?

[Umar001]

I show this one as an example of the legalistic nature of Islam. You are denied blessing because you have a dog? The Islamic God judges people on whether you have a dog? It just doesn't make sense. God must judge purely on whether we do good or evil, whether we help others.

What is absurd to me is that you are saying that God is to judge purely on whether we do good or evil, yet the concept of having a God is for Him to tell us what good and evil is, for Him to distinguish it, or do you think that we should say to God 'This is good and evil God, judge me according to this scale of what good and evil is'

Surely if you honestly can put yourself in the shoes of a person who is believing in a more powerful being, a being that knows what is best, then you can understand why we as humans might not know all that is evil but God would? And if you understand that then you should find it illogical that a person would tell God what is right and wrong?

[Jayda]

hello for the non-muslims

i thought to post as anonymous....but like bro woodrow say...i can't even spell it. So i can't even create the account itself :-[

but i really like to know your own opinion....

1.what do you think of islam?

2.Why don't you choose islam and be a muslim?

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

Thats all for now....and i hope i didn't offend anyone.

Thank you in advance for your reply.

hola syilla,

i am going to try to answer this again... please nobody be offended by my answers... just ignore me... gracias...


1. i think islam is very simple and disciplined conceptually but very overarching in scope, and aggressive...

2. because i believe in God, the Father almighty creator of heaven and earth, i believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell and on the third day He rose again. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father, he will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins the resurrection of the body and life everlasting...

and i do not believe mohammed was a prophet or the quran is a revelation of God...

3. i do not know anything about islam outside of what is written in the quran which is why skillganon recommended me to this website to learn more... some rulings that i do not agree with that i already know about are many aspects about marriage, the use of the death penalty... that you are not allowed music, and the military aspects of islam...

Dios te bendiga

[sudais1]

[QUOTE=duskiness;611164]

concept of war and possition of women. probably I feel "uncomfortable" with whole "legal" aspect of Islam :-[


Please woman have the most right in Islam, Hijab is for there protection, and this war thing is easy to explain, you take our land, come to our land invade kill our people and say "terrorist" attacks, please dont get me started:raging:

[Goku]

Interesting thread

[duskiness]

Please woman have the most right in Islam, Hijab is for there protection, and this war thing is easy to explain, you take our land, come to our land invade kill our people and say "terrorist" attacks, please dont get me started:raging:

By no means I wanted to "get you starting"! I tried to answer question and be honest (and STILL within limits). i could only write how I respect Islam but than is not the answer to "why not Islam" question.
I read many thread here about women, war, death penalty or dog issue. And I still disagree.
Is saying this in this thread too much? :-[ :?

[Jayda]

hola syilla,

i was afraid of this too... that is why i asked for my post the first time to be deleted... i really think it would be best if this allowed anonymous answers...

Dios te bendiga...

[KAding]

What is absurd to me is that you are saying that God is to judge purely on whether we do good or evil, yet the concept of having a God is for Him to tell us what good and evil is, for Him to distinguish it, or do you think that we should say to God 'This is good and evil God, judge me according to this scale of what good and evil is'

Surely if you honestly can put yourself in the shoes of a person who is believing in a more powerful being, a being that knows what is best, then you can understand why we as humans might not know all that is evil but God would? And if you understand that then you should find it illogical that a person would tell God what is right and wrong?

Hello Al Habeshi, :)

Keep in mind, it was not my intention to judge Muslims in this post I made. I was asked the question why I did not become a Muslim, in other words, why Islam was not appealing to me. I did not reason based on how Muslims should percieve it, I reasoned based on how I, as a non-believer, perceived it.

Part of my answer was that I find that Islam is too focused on the details and seems to miss the bigger picture. If rulings don't make sense to me it is not going to help me believe Islam is the message of God. Sure, if you already believe in the Islamic God all this will make sense, because you assume God has its own valid reasons to make some of these rulings. But to people who do not yet believe in Allah some of these rulings can't be excused in this manner. We have to use our common sense. And my common sense and values tell me that the three rulings I posted do not make sense and do not appear compassionate and loving, something I would expect from a God.

So to answer your question, yes, for someone who already believes in Allah and Mohammed as his prophet it is illogical. For anyone else it is not. Anyone else has to weigh the arguments for and against whether these rules are divine and might well come to the conclusion that these rules are indeed ungodly and of human origin.

[Muhammad]

:sl: and Greetings,

I think this thread can be quite helpful to Muslims to show the main concerns and worries of some non-Muslims and areas that we might need to work on when explaining or clarifying aspects of Islam. I think that it would be good to have a parallel thread to this one in which Muslims are given a chance to respond to the points raised here, so perhaps one can be started in the near future Insha'Allaah. Also, so long as an answer is honest and respectful, I don't see the need for people to feel anxious about posting their replies.

I would also just like to say that I personally wouldn't approve of the third question:

3.Is there any particular rulings in Islam that you don't agree. If yes, what is it?

This is because the religion of Islam has been ordained and perfected by Allaah, so it is irrelevant as to what any creation personally feels about them. Human beings have only so much a capability to comprehend and understand; God, on the other hand, has infinite wisdom and knowledge with which He prescribes rulings that might be seemingly senseless to some individuals but nevertheless facilitate the best outcome. Perhaps it is in this context that some of the responses would be given.

Peace.

[ZAYD]

".....and Allah guides whom he wishes...."

[Malaikah]

This is because the religion of Islam has been ordained and perfected by Allaah, so it is irrelevant as to what any creation personally feels about them. Human beings have only so much a capability to comprehend and understand; God, on the other hand, has infinite wisdom and knowledge with which He prescribes rulings that might be seemingly senseless to some individuals but nevertheless facilitate the best outcome. Perhaps it is in this context that some of the responses would be given.

Not to mention, I do not think any non-Muslim member her has a professional or detailed eduction in Islam, so how can they disagree with something that they have not studied in detail?

[Abdul Fattah]

- The 'problem of evil'. I simply do not believe that a God with the properties ascribed to Him would create the world as it is. I've seen all the responses, and find none even remotely convincing.

I think I might have given you the following answers before. Nevertheless to be certain I thought I'd answer this one again.

The most basic form of evil is the one that comes from free will. Free will means that evil is possible. So basically God doesn’t fail us in fighting off evil, but instead we are failing him in following his guidance. Interceding in this would defeat creation with free will

But you can’t blame people for all the bad things that happen on earth, can you? What about natural disasters or sicknesses? As for those things people aren’t responsible for. I can see how you would describe them as bad. And I understand if one of them hits you personal that you experience it as a bad and unfortunate event. But people judge them as such because they fail to consider two basic pieces into this puzzle. First of all, this puzzle of this paradigm is all about people being created by a creator. We’re given an existence and a limited stay on this earth. Holding a grudge against your creator because your stay here is limited doesn’t make sense. Since this limited stay is a test, the end of a person’s stay is covered under the veil of death. Would it not be covered, then it would ruin the “test” for the rest of us that stay behind; thus making religion obvious rather then a question of believe. The second thing people generally miss out is that this puzzle claims that death is a transition, and that everybody will be rewarded according to what they earn after it. That puts the “evil-rate" of death into perspective.

Well that still doesn’t cover “all” bad things. What about the people who aren’t killed by a natural disaster, but left wounded or sick without their family homeless and starving. Why is there so many suffering who does death occur so slow? Again, the bad nature of those things are relative. For some people a slow death might give them the opportunity to repent for their sins. And when facing death, even an atheist will start to pray. So consider how long this death relatively is compared to an infinite afterlife in either hell or heaven. Then consider that the length of dieing might have an influence in that destination. Another factor to consider is that our sufferings might have a weight in the scales of judgment. A person with nothing then hardships has had a different test then a person with a picture-perfect life. And just like a written exam in school, exams are meant to test a person, not to test the persons luck with the questions he is dealt. So if different students get different questions their grade is not a simple sum of the number of questions they got right, the weight of the questions matters to. As demonstrated in the following hadith about sickness for example:
“Whenever a hardship affects the Muslim, he will be forgiven for it even when he is picked by a spike.” (Reported by Muslim).
Ummu as-Sa'ib cursed fever, to which the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) told her: 'Do not curse fever, for it takes away the sins like the blaze (fire) takes away the impurities of iron.' (Reported by Muslim)

I doubt this will have changed your mind, but at least I hope I've given you a plausible alternative

[lolwatever]

Not to mention, I do not think any non-Muslim member her has a professional or detailed eduction in Islam, so how can they disagree with something that they have not studied in detail?

or worse still, comment on a book they refuse to read. (E.g. the Quran)

"I have not read the Quran in full and certainly not in its original language nor do I care to do so." :X Link

[KAding]

Not to mention, I do not think any non-Muslim member her has a professional or detailed eduction in Islam, so how can they disagree with something that they have not studied in detail?

Of course, this criticism applies to anyone following any ideology. How learned are you in all other religions? Since your education on, say, Hinduism is probably far from perfect, how do you know that Hinduism is not the true word of God?

Besides, define 'studied'. How many Muslims are well-informed about their own religion? In all honesty, by now I think I'm more learned on Islam than many Muslims seem to be. I often catch them saying things that are clearly unislamic :). And yes, I have read significant parts of the Qu'ran.

Nonetheless, there is of course some truth in your words. On TV I often hear many non-Muslims make the most idiotic claims about Islam, clearly based on a lack of understanding and education. But I believe most non-Muslims on this forum are far from ignorant on Islam. Certainly they probably know enough to have a valuable opinion on it.

[Jayda]

hola,

maybe this is not a good topic to discuss at this time... we do not want to cause trouble and i do not think anybody intended on having a large debate about this... could somebody perhaps consider closing it?

gracias...

[Malaikah]

Of course, this criticism applies to anyone following any ideology. How learned are you in all other religions? Since your education on, say, Hinduism is probably far from perfect, how do you know that Hinduism is not the true word of God?

Of course. But I do not need to study every religion in the world to figure out which is the right one. Once I have seen the proof to indicate that Islam is the correct religion I do not need to spend time researching other religions needlessly.

Anyway, I wouldn't pretend to disagree with some in Hinduism when I don't even have a clue that the religion is about.

Besides, define 'studied'. How many Muslims are well-informed about their own religion? In all honesty, by now I think I'm more learned on Islam than many Muslims seem to be. I often catch them saying things that are clearly unislamic :). And yes, I have read significant parts of the Qu'ran.

True, but some members have disagreed with things that they could only logically disagree with if they had actually studied it properly. Some of the things people disagreed with didn't need a detailed understanding, while others certainly did.

By the way, reading the Quran doesn't mean you have understood it in depth, because there is something called 'tafsir of the Quran', which is like the explanation of the verses in the context they were revealed. The most dramatic example of this that I can think of is the verse saying something to the effect of cut off the heads of the every disbeliever where ever you see them. Some ignorant people think it literally meant everywhere you see them- at the shops or what ever, while ignoring the fact that the verse was revealed during a battle!:rollseyes In this context to makes sense, one could hardly do around trying to say, tickle, the people who are trying to kill you.

Just thought I would mention that...

Nonetheless, there is of course some truth in your words. On TV I often hear many non-Muslims make the most idiotic claims about Islam, clearly based on a lack of understanding and education. But I believe most non-Muslims on this forum are far from ignorant on Islam. Certainly they probably know enough to have a valuable opinion on it

Fair enough- I would not say 'valuable' opinion though (the forum isn't that comprehensive, the political aspects are so not explained properly here), but certainly a better formed opinion than most other people.

[SilentObserver]

This thread should not be used to debate the ability of non-muslims to make informed judgements of islam, or any other debate. The purpose was to ask non-muslims why islam is not for them. If it turns into a debate people will not answer. People will feel like they have been asked only to be attacked for the answer they provide. A trap.
Best to start another thread if you wish to debate anything that was said.

[Jayda]

This thread should not be used to debate the ability of non-muslims to make informed judgements of islam, or any other debate. The purpose was to ask non-muslims why islam is not for them. If it turns into a debate people will not answer. People will feel like they have been asked only to be attacked for the answer they provide. A trap.
Best to start another thread if you wish to debate anything that was said.

hola SilentObservert,

i feel like this too...

[syilla]

This thread should not be used to debate the ability of non-muslims to make informed judgements of islam, or any other debate. The purpose was to ask non-muslims why islam is not for them. If it turns into a debate people will not answer. People will feel like they have been asked only to be attacked for the answer they provide. A trap.
Best to start another thread if you wish to debate anything that was said.

it is not a trap...

yeah this thread should not be for a debate.

please create a new thread for a debate.

thank you

[Trumble]

I would also just like to say that I personally wouldn't approve of the third question:

This is because the religion of Islam has been ordained and perfected by Allaah, so it is irrelevant as to what any creation personally feels about them. Human beings have only so much a capability to comprehend and understand; God, on the other hand, has infinite wisdom and knowledge with which He prescribes rulings that might be seemingly senseless to some individuals but nevertheless facilitate the best outcome. Perhaps it is in this context that some of the responses would be given.

That is certainly not the context in which my reply was given. As the purpose of the thread is to effectively ask non-muslims, i.e people who do not believe that "the religion of Islam has been ordained and perfected by Allaah" (or even believe there is a God at all), why they are not muslims, that objection makes no sense at all in this context regardless of your personal belief.

It also overlooks the point that I made earlier, that "perfected" or not the Qur'an and Hadith are interpreted in different ways by different muslims in different places; I gave an example earlier regarding women's education. It is some of those interpretations (which are made by people, not God) that make non-muslims uncomfortable, hence not only is the question non-offensive in this context, it is essential.

I doubt this will have changed your mind, but at least I hope I've given you a plausible alternative

It didn't, as I said I've seen them all before. They are certainly alternatives, and have been frequently argued throughout history, but I simply do not find them remotely plausible ones in the context of a God with the characteristics He is supposed to have. It would be straying off topic to explain why here (this isn't another 'does God exist' thread), but I have done so elsewhere.

One thought springs to mind though, in view of my response to Muhammad. Presumably the application of free-will applies just as much to those scholars providing Qur'anic and Hadith interpretations as it does to everybody else. Doesn't that open at up least the logical possibility (it's clearly not a very likely one!) that every single one of those interpretations might be not only wrong, but actually evil? It would certainly seem to suggest that at least some are likely to be both.

[north_malaysian]

Syilla, thanks for starting this thread....

I hope our Jewish forummers can answer these questions too...

and, I'm not offended with the answers.... it's cool...:statisfie

[Jayda]

hola

maybe this would be a better thread for us to talk about things like violence and islam, and other things instead of having separate topics...

Dios te bendiga

[MTAFFI]

Let me start out by saying that I personally believe religion is religion. As long as you follow God and the basic principals I think you will be OK overall.

I choose not to follow Islam for a few reasons, one and what would seem to be the most obvious to those that know me is that I am a devout Catholic and I just like the way my religion teaches me to live life and I like the services it offers. I feel whole when I am at Catholic mass, and not only that when I leave I feel relieved! At the same time I have never attended a mosque either.

Second I do not like how Islam asks you to pray so often, I like to pray at night before I go to sleep and at church but other than that it is just too much for me. I know that some Muslims reading this are saying shame on you right now, but I am just being honest.

I also believe that Islam is too strict of a religion, I feel it asks to much of its people. Take for instance, women wearing the head thingy, I love when I see a beautiful woman, not always for lust but it is nice to see all of the beautiful things that God created and I like admiring them. I also think it does not take care of it women as well as it could either. Take a man having more than one wife, to me this is worse than going to a strip club or lusting over women on the street, especially since the wife can only have one husband.

I also do not like the Jihad thing that is associated with Islam. No where in the Catholic bible does it say it is OK to kill or martyr yourself no matter what the circumstance. Even if your people are treated unjust or your land is invaded, Catholicism teaches peace and only peace and there is no other way. "Live by the sword and die by the sword"

That is basically why I cannot embrace Islam as my religion.

[Pygoscelis]

To be brutally honest, one of the reasons I could never follow Islam is because of the name itself. Even if I did believe that a God existed (which I don't, so the point is moot) I would not look upon "surrender" to that God as a virtue. I'm too much of a bugger.

Given eternal ****ation I may bow to him, but only out of fear, not out of love or respect.

lol a religious board censors that word?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

lol the heady thingy is called a hijab :D Plus if Islam didnt take care of us women, I wouldnt be here :D and be religious lol. keep ur views comin guys. i like reading it all.

Peace

[- Qatada -]

Listen psygoscelis. First of all, please stop talking about what you have no knowledge, Allaah loves those who believe and this is why He gives them good in this life and the hereafter.



(Say: ‘If you do love Allah follow me, Allah will love you and forgive your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.) Qur'an (3:31)

(Surely those who believe and do righteous deeds, to them will God Most Gracious bestow His Love.) Qur'an (19:96)


If you can't grasp the idea of a Creator, then you don't need to attack islaam. Thankyou.



Peace.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^ i thought he was speaking generally at the end :X

[Jayda]

lol the heady thingy is called a hijab :D Plus if Islam didnt take care of us women, I wouldnt be here :D and be religious lol. keep ur views comin guys. i like reading it all.

Peace

Listen psygoscelis. First of all, please stop talking about what you have no knowledge, Allaah loves those who believe and this is why He gives them good in this life and the hereafter.



(Say: ‘If you do love Allah follow me, Allah will love you and forgive your sins for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.) Qur'an (3:31)

(Surely those who believe and do righteous deeds, to them will God Most Gracious bestow His Love.) Qur'an (19:96)


If you can't grasp the idea of a Creator, then you don't need to attack islaam. Thankyou.



Peace.

hola Tayyaba and Fi_Sabilillah,

i do not mean to cause trouble but please have a little more patience with us... it is difficult for us to express our thoughts about why we do not want to be muslims without insulting you... and we do not want to do that... conflicting messages encouraging us to tell you what we think and then asking us to not say what we think makes this very confusing and we do not know what to say...

please take our answers as an invitation to explain and not necessarily an attack... (but please do not feel compelled to have to explain everything to us...)

muchos gracias, Dios te bendiga

[Goku]

I am not offended by the views of non-Muslims in this topic, as long as blatent insults arent used.:)

Feel free to keep the views coming, its interesting to read and understand your position. Its good for discussions too.

Thanks for being polite Jayda. :thumbs_up

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

hola Tayyaba and Fi_Sabilillah,

i do not mean to cause trouble but please have a little more patience with us... it is difficult for us to express our thoughts about why we do not want to be muslims without insulting you... and we do not want to do that... conflicting messages encouraging us to tell you what we think and then asking us to not say what we think makes this very confusing and we do not know what to say...

please take our answers as an invitation to explain and not necessarily an attack... (but please do not feel compelled to have to explain everything to us...)

muchos gracias, Dios te bendiga

where was i losing patience :?. i was just telling him what it is :) he called it head thingy so i thought it'd be good to tell him what its called.

Peace

[Jayda]

where was i losing patience :?. i was just telling him what it is :) he called it head thingy so i thought it'd be good to tell him what its called.

Peace

hola Tayyaba,

i am sorry that i confused you... what i meant to say was that your post encouraged us to continue talking and Fi_Sabilillah's post asked us to not... i did not mean to suggest anybody had a lack of patience... the conflicting messages we are getting from muslim to muslim is making answering very difficult because we do not know what will get us in trouble...

muchos gracias
Goodnight

[rav]

lol the heady thingy is called a hijab :D Plus if Islam didnt take care of us women, I wouldnt be here :D and be religious lol. keep ur views comin guys. i like reading it all.

Do you know where the Hijab came from, or what culture had it in use before the Quran?

[Malaikah]

Do you know where the Hijab came from, or what culture had it in use before the Quran?

Are you going to tell us?

[rav]

Are you going to tell us?

Sure.

http://www.jofa.org/pdf/Batch%201/0101.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzeniut
http://www.modestworld.com/
http://www.modestclothes.com/jewish/...-clothing.html

[Malaikah]

What are trying to suggest, that Muslims stole the idea of head-covering from the Jews?

Considering that both Moses and Muhammad pbuh received their revelation from the same God, it obviously is not surprising that they have some common elements.

[SilentObserver]

Listen psygoscelis. First of all, please stop talking about what you have no knowledge, Allaah loves those who believe and this is why He gives them good in this life and the hereafter.

If you can't grasp the idea of a Creator, then you don't need to attack islaam. Thankyou.



Peace.

With all due respect, the purpose of the thread is to ask nonmuslims why they do not follow islam. Your post instructs him to not answer the question. If you do not wish to hear honest answers from nonmuslims, then why not make the forum a "muslims only" forum?
I will repeat what I said in an earlier post. If a question is asked, then be prepared for the honest answer. An attack against a nonmuslims honest answer in a thread like this, appears like a trap. Ask a question, then attack the person when you don't like the answer. (I know that the original poster/question asker did not do this).
If you do this to the honest answers you get now, you are discouraging people from giving you honest answers in the future.

If a person does not like the answers they read in this thread, please start a new thread to discuss/debate the answer. This thread is a beneficial one, and should be allowed to run it's course without being shut down due to arguing.

[north_malaysian]

I will repeat what I said in an earlier post. If a question is asked, then be prepared for the honest answer.

understood...

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Do you know where the Hijab came from, or what culture had it in use before the Quran?

Yes I do know, and that is G-d. Plain and simple.

[lolwatever]

To be brutally honest, one of the reasons I could never follow Islam is because of the name itself. Even if I did believe that a God existed (which I don't, so the point is moot) I would not look upon "surrender" to that God as a virtue. I'm too much of a bugger.

Given eternal ****ation I may bow to him, but only out of fear, not out of love or respect.

lol a religious board censors that word?

we found out that you're willing to rebel even if it means eternity in hellfire, ages ago... no need to even mention it.

[lolwatever]

With all due respect, the purpose of the thread is to ask nonmuslims why they do not follow islam. Your post instructs him to not answer the question. If you do not wish to hear honest answers from nonmuslims, then why not make the forum a "muslims only" forum?
I will repeat what I said in an earlier post. If a question is asked, then be prepared for the honest answer. An attack against a nonmuslims honest answer in a thread like this, appears like a trap. Ask a question, then attack the person when you don't like the answer. (I know that the original poster/question asker did not do this).
If you do this to the honest answers you get now, you are discouraging people from giving you honest answers in the future.

If a person does not like the answers they read in this thread, please start a new thread to discuss/debate the answer. This thread is a beneficial one, and should be allowed to run it's course without being shut down due to arguing.

his reply wasn't a statement of reason, it was loaded with disrespect.

Feel free to make comments, as long as its genuine reasons and not emotions that are being dished out. :)

[Pygoscelis]

If you can't grasp the idea of a Creator, then you don't need to attack islaam. Thankyou.

A question was asked and an answer was given. I'm sorry you took offence where none was intended.

[Pygoscelis]

his reply wasn't a statement of reason, it was loaded with disrespect.

Feel free to make comments, as long as its genuine reasons and not emotions that are being dished out. :)

Actually, I'd encourage folks to look at the post in question and the response he gave. In my humble opinion the response was more aggressive and rude than the post.

If you don't want an honest response, don't ask the question. Not everybody holds as good or virtue what you may hold as good or virtue.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

the point is dont exaggerate ur anger. it doesnt hurt to show it but not to the point where ur literally lashing out. im just making a general statement. dont get at me!...:X

[lolwatever]

^ xactly.. das wat i was tryin2 say pygo...

[Pygoscelis]

I'm confused. Who is lashing out?

[starfortress]

Do you know where the Hijab came from, or what culture had it in use before the Quran?

:thumbs_up Certainly it was guided from the same God ,plus it doesn't important anymore which culture had it,before Muslim(1/4 World Population) because most of them never practising it in today life.

Behold, ye are those invited to spend (of your substance) in the Way of Allah. But among you are some that are niggardly. But any who are niggardly are so at the expense of their own souls. But Allah is free of all wants, and it is ye that are needy. If ye turn back (from the Path), He will substitute in your stead another people; then they would not be like you!

[47:38]