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Bittersteel
07-03-2005, 08:01 AM
Discuss about them and when and why they took place.
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al faqeer
07-03-2005, 08:47 AM
:sl:


Abrogation of what exactly akhi ??
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Uthman
07-03-2005, 03:48 PM
:sl:

I think he is referring to the theory of abrogation whereby certain earlier verses of the Qur'an were abrogated by later ones.

:w:
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أحمد
07-03-2005, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
:sl:

I think he is referring to the theory of abrogation whereby certain earlier verses of the Qur'an were abrogated by later ones.

:w:
:sl:

:) It is true, and those verses still give great deal of meaning especially when trying to understand true Islamic History . . . And some other issues . . . :thumbs_up

:w:
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Bittersteel
07-03-2005, 08:27 PM
yes I was talking about them in the Quran.Can you people please help?
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Uthman
07-03-2005, 09:28 PM
:sl:

Some people are of the view that the Qur'an contradicts itself but this is not true.

First of all though, here is a verse from the holy Qur'an:

مَا نَنسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِّنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللّهَ عَلَىَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

(002:106)
Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

If we consider the word آيَةٍ in this verse to refer to the verses of the Qur'an (rather than previous revelations) then this signifies that certain earlier verses of the Qur'an were exchanged for ones that were revealed later.

This does not mean that the earlier verses of the Qur'an become void. That is not true.

Examples of 'abrogation' are the challenges to reproduce the likes of the Qur'an and the prohibition of intoxicants.

Despite the abrogations none of the verses of the Qur'an contradict each other.

أَفَلاَ يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآنَ وَلَوْ كَانَ مِنْ عِندِ غَيْرِ اللّهِ لَوَجَدُواْ فِيهِ اخْتِلاَفاً كَثِيراً

(004:082)
Do they not then consider the Quran carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions.

Some pagan Arabs alleged that the Qur’an was forged by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Allah (swt) challenges these Arabs in the following verse of Surah Al-Isra: "Say: If the whole of Mankind and Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support."
[Al-Qur’an 17:88]

Later the challenge was made easy in the following verse of Surah Al-Hud:

"Or they may say, "He forged it." Say, "Bring ye then ten Surahs forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsover ye can, other than Allah, if ye speak the truth!’."
[Al-Qur’an 11:13]

It was made easier in the following verse of Surah Yunus:

"Or do they say, "He forged it"? Say: "Bring then a Surah like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can, besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!’."
[Al-Qur’an 10:38]

Finally in Surah Al-Baqarah, Allah (swt) further simplied the challenge:

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah if your (doubts) are true.

But if ye cannot – and of a surety ye cannot – then fear the Fire whose fuel is Men and Stones – which is prepared for those who reject faith".
[Al-Qur’an 2:23-24]

Thus Allah (swt) made the challenges progressively easier. The progressively revealed verses of the Qur’an first challenged the pagans to produce a book like the Qur’an, then challenged them to produce ten Surahs (chapters) like those in the Qur’an, then one Surah and finally it challenges them to produce one Surah somewhat similar (mim mislihi) to the Qur’anic Surahs. This does not mean that the later verses that were revealed i.e. of Surah Baqarah chapter 2 verses 23 and 24 contradict the earlier three verses. Contradiction implies mentioning two things that cannot be possible simultaneously, or cannot take place simultaneously.

The earlier verses of the Qur’an i.e. the abrogated verses are still the word of God and the information contained in it is true to this day. For instance the challenge to produce a recital like the Qur’an stands to this day. Similarly the challenge to produce ten Surahs and one Surah exactly like the Qur’an also holds true and the last challenge of producing one surah somewhat similar to the Qur’an also holds true. It does not contradict the earlier challenges, but this is the easiest of all the challenges posed by the Qur’an. If the last challenge cannot be fulfilled, the question of anyone fulfilling the other three more difficult challenges does not arise.

Suppose I speak about a person that he is so dumb, that he would not be able to pass the 10th standard in school. Later I say that he would not be able to pass the 5th standard, and further say that he would not be able to pass even the 1st standard. Finally I say that he is so dull that he would not even be able to pass K.G. i.e. kindergarten. One has to pass kindergarten before one can be admitted to school. What I am stating is that the person is so dull as to be unable to pass even kindergarten. My four statements do not contradict each other, but my last statement i.e. the person would not be able to pass the kindergarten is sufficient to indicate the intelligence of that person. If a person cannot even pass kindergarten, the question of him passing the first standard or 5th or 10th, does not arise.

Another example of such verses is that related to gradual prohibition of intoxicants. The first revelation of the Qur’an to deal with intoxicants was the following verse from Surah Baqarah:

"They ask thee concerning wine and gambling say: ‘In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit’."
[Al-Qur’an 2:219]

The next verse to be revealed regarding intoxicants is the following verse from Surah Nisa:

"O ye who believe! approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say" [Al-Qur’an 4:43]

The last verse to be revealed regarding intoxicants was the following verse from Surah Al-Maidah:

"O ye who believe! intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination of Satan’s handiwork; eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."
[Al-Qur’an 5:90]

The Qur’an was revealed over a period of 22½ years. Many reforms that were brought about in the society were gradual. This was to facilitate the adoption of new laws by the people. An abrupt change in society always leads to rebellion and anarchy.

The prohibition of intoxicants was revealed in three stages. The first revelation only mentioned that in the intoxicants there is great sin and some profit but the sin is greater than the profit. The next revelation prohibited praying in an intoxicated state, indicating that one should not consume intoxicants during the day, since a Muslim has to pray five times a day. This verse does state that when one is not praying at night one is allowed to consume intoxicants. It means one may have or one may not have. The Qur’an does not comment on it. If this verse had mentioned that one is allowed to have intoxicants while not praying then there would have been a contradiction. Allah (swt) chose words appropriately. Finally the total prohibition of intoxicants at all times was revealed in Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 90.

This clearly indicates that the three verses do not contradict each other. Had they been contradicting, it would not have been possible to follow all the three verses simultaneously. Since a Muslim is expected to follow each and every verse of the Qur’an, only by following the last verse i.e. of Surah Maidah (5:90), he simultaneously agrees and follows the previous two verses.

Suppose I say that I do not live in Los Angeles. Later I say that I do not live in California. Finally I say, I do not live in the United States of America. This does not imply that these three statements contradict each other. Each statement gives more information than the previous statement. The third statement includes the information contained in the first two statements. Thus, only by saying that I do not live in the United States of America, it is obvious, that I also do not live in California nor New York. Similarly since consuming alcohol is totally prohibited, it is obvious that praying in an intoxicated state is also prohibited and the information that in intoxicants is "great sin and some profit for men; but the sin is greater than profit" also holds true.
:w:


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kadafi
07-03-2005, 09:34 PM
:sl:

There are three types of al-Naskh in the Glorious Qur'an:

- Abrogation of the Ruling and the verse - (for example, Naskh al-Hukm wa at-Tilaawah It was among the recitation of the Qur'an: ten known times of suckling. This was about ruling of a child's suckling" [Reported by Imams al-Bukhari and Muslim ]).
- The abrogation of the ruling without the verse - Naskh al-Hukm doona at-Tilaawah (Such as: the verse of the will on behalf relatives [2: 180], Surah al-Baqarah: 240, and the verse of easing the task of fighting [8: 65].
- Abrogation of the verse without the ruling - Naskh at-Tilaawah doona al-Hukm (such as the verse concerning stoning the married one who commits Zina)
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khal_75
07-04-2005, 10:49 AM
:sl: mashalla a gr8 reply frm :brother: osman :applaud: :w:
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Bittersteel
07-04-2005, 11:59 AM
thanks brothers.....
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Uthman
07-04-2005, 06:27 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by kadafi
There are three types of al-Naskh in the Glorious Qur'an:

- Abrogation of the Ruling and the verse - (for example, Naskh al-Hukm wa at-Tilaawah It was among the recitation of the Qur'an: ten known times of suckling. This was about ruling of a child's suckling" [Reported by Imams al-Bukhari and Muslim ]).
- The abrogation of the ruling without the verse - Naskh al-Hukm doona at-Tilaawah (Such as: the verse of the will on behalf relatives [2: 180], Surah al-Baqarah: 240, and the verse of easing the task of fighting [8: 65].
- Abrogation of the verse without the ruling - Naskh at-Tilaawah doona al-Hukm (such as the verse concerning stoning the married one who commits Zina)
Does Al-Naskh mean abrogation(s)?

:w:
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kadafi
07-05-2005, 07:07 PM
Nask
Originally Posted by Osman
:sl:


Does Al-Naskh mean abrogation(s)?

:w:
:sl:

Yes
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-05-2005, 07:26 PM
:sl:
Also, Abrogation occurs when the previous ruling is completely revoked. This is different from Takhsees, where the ruling is just specified for certain conditions. Some Early scholars used the word 'naskh' to refer to both, but now scholars make a distinction between takhsees and naskh.

The example of alcohol is one of takhsees, because all the previous verses still apply. i.e. we are still not allowed to pray when drunk. but the ruling of not drinking intoxicants at all, has been added on top, rather than revoking the original command.

You can read Shaykh Yasir Qadhi's book for more info.

Hope that's not too confusing. :D
:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-05-2005, 07:29 PM
:sl:
I also found what Ahmad von Denffer wrote about the issue:

Abrogation and Specification
There is of course a difference between abrogation and specification. By the latter is meant that one revelation explains in more detail or according to specific circumstances how another revelation should be understood.

Example:
Sura 2:183 says 'O you who believe, fasting is prescribed to you ...'
Narrated 'Ata' that he heard Ibn 'Abbas reciting the Divine verse 'for those who can do it is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent' (2:184).
Ibn 'Abbas said 'This verse is not abrogated but it is meant for old men and old women who have no strength to fast, so they should feed one poor person for each day of fasting (instead of fasting). [Bukhari, VI, No. 32.]
It is quite clear that the second verse (2:184) does not abrogate the rule of fasting from the first verse (2:183) but explains that in a specific case, that of feeble old people, there is a way of making up for the loss of fast.
In the same way the verses concerning intoxicating drinks can be understood as specifications rather than abrogations (see 4:43;2:219;5:93-4).

Summary
The Qur'an, in 2:106, refers to the concept of naskh. However, there is a difference of opinion about the extent to which al-nasikh wa-al mansukh does in fact occur in the text of the Qur'an. The information concerning al-nasikh wa-al mansukh must be treated with great caution as, for all reports concerning the text of the Qur'an, two independent witnesses are required. Many of the examples which the scholars have drawn upon to illustrate this question (and I have quoted them for the same purpose) are based on one witness only. 'A'isha alone reported that 10 or 5 sucklings had been part of the Qur'anic recitation, and only 'Umar reported that the 'verse of stoning' had been included in the Qur'anic text. These legal rulings are not included in the Qur'an precisely because they were not considered reliable, being based on one witness only. Similarly, other examples about naskh, based on the words of Ibn 'Abbas or Mujahid alone, are to be judged by the same measure.
However, as mentioned there remain a small number of verses which, as far as can be ascertained from the internal evidence of the Qur'an, have been superseded by other verses in the Qur'an.
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kadafi
07-05-2005, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:
Also, Abrogation occurs when the previous ruling is completely revoked. This is different from Takhsees, where the ruling is just specified for certain conditions. Some Early scholars used the word 'naskh' to refer to both, but now scholars make a distinction between takhsees and naskh.

The example of alcohol is one of takhsees, because all the previous verses still apply. i.e. we are still not allowed to pray when drunk. but the ruling of not drinking intoxicants at all, has been added on top, rather than revoking the original command.

You can read Shaykh Yasir Qadhi's book for more info.

Hope that's not too confusing. :D
:w:
:sl:

I definitely did not know about this. So if I understand it correctly, takhsees is about narrowing the same rule untill it is finally abrogated? For instance, the intoxicants prohibition?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
07-05-2005, 07:52 PM
:sl:
I definitely did not know about this. So if I understand it correctly, takhsees is about narrowing the same rule untill it is finally abrogated? For instance, the intoxicants prohibition?
Takhsees is basically the answer to why there is no contradiction between the verses in the Qur'anb saying "fight the disbelievers" and "there is no compulsion in religion". Each specifies a different case.

I also encountered it recently while doing research for the my recent article. See here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Misquoted/#10

A verse can only be considered nasikh when it abrogates the other verse, completely. Alcohol prohibition is a case where the ruling is simply added to, not abrogated.

Here's an excerpt from Shaykh Qadhi's book:

The Difference between Naskh and Takhsees

The phenomenon of takhsees (specification) was mentioned at the beginning of this chapter. It is essential that the concept of naskh not be confused with that of takhsees and for this reason many scholars of uloom al-qur'an included in theirt works the difference between naskh and takhsees.

Takhsees is defined to be the specification of a general ruling ('aam), such that what seems to be a general ruling only applies in certain cases. For example the Qur'aan sayus about the amputation of the hand of the thief:
And the thief-male orr female- cut off their hands 5:38

This verse is general ('aam) and implies that the hand of every thief must be cut. The Prophet saws however qualified that the thief in this case must steal above a certain monetary value. if he stole below this value, this ruling will not apply to him. This then, is an example of takhsees: the hand of every thief will not be cut, only those who styeal above a certain monetary value are punished.

Naskh differs from takhsees in the following manners:
1. Naskh may only occur with regards to laws and rulings (ahkaam). Takhsees, on the other hand may occur with respect to other matters...

2. Naskh implies a total abandonment of the previous ruling, no matter what the case. takhsees on the other hand, is defined to be the implementation of a previous ruling only in some of the original cases . In other words, after a takhsees occurs, the ruling is not totally invalid, but rather valid in a narrower frame.

There is some more, insha'Allah I'll post the rest later.

:w:
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kadafi
07-05-2005, 08:02 PM
:sl:

Jazaka'Allaahu Khairun!
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Bittersteel
07-05-2005, 08:35 PM
Also, Abrogation occurs when the previous ruling is completely revoked.
verse of stoning was one of them?

so here what its like:

adulterates/adultresses-100 lashes
fornicators/fornicatress-80 lashes
and those who bring false charges?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
07-05-2005, 09:03 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Abdul Aziz
verse of stoning was one of them?
The recitation was abrogated but the ruling remains.

so here what its like:

adulterates/adultresses-100 lashes
fornicators/fornicatress-80 lashes
and those who bring false charges?
This was explained by Br. Kadafi in the other thread. Please read what he wrote about the punishments.

:w:
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Preacher
07-13-2005, 05:56 AM
Originally Posted by Osman
:sl:


Does Al-Naskh mean abrogation(s)?

:w:
:sl:

The English word “abrogation” literally signifies annulment, nullification or cancellation. However, in Islaamic terminology that is used in Glorious Qur’aan, it means expiration of the period of the validity of a practical injunction”.

Naskh (abrogation) is related only to injunctions that are not eternal and are equal with regard to the possibility of their existence or non-existence.

Abrogation can never be taken to mean that Allaah commanded or prohibited something and then thought better of it and decided to cancel His former command. This is impossible because it involves attributing ignorance to Allaah (Allaah forbid). Also it is not possible for Allaah to command or prohibit something and then without any change in time, subject or conditions to abrogate His injunction since that would lead to attributing imperfection to Allaah. Allaah is FREE of any imperfection whatsoever.

What the Naskh/Mansookh (abrogation/abrogated) signified is that Allaah knows that a certain injunction will remain valid for people up to certain time and then cease to be applicable. When that specific time is reached, a new command is sent which seems to either abrogate or change the former injunction but which, in fact, does nothing but mark the expiration of its validity. Since the former command did not have a specific period of validity attached to it, we take the new injunction as a cancellation of the former.

Example:

An employer might command one of his employees to do certain task with the intention of asking him to do some other task after one year, without, however, disclosing his intention to the employee. After the completion of the year, when employer ask the employee to do the other job, the employee might think that employer have changed or amended his orders, even though it is not the case, in fact, employer has not made any changes or amended his plans. Like all other changing phenomena around us, these apparent changes or amendments in the divine injunction are part of Divine Wisdom, whether we know its significance or not.

The literal meaning of Naskh is replacement of one thing by another thing. Technical meaning from Islaamic point of view is “Lifting the Law of Shariah by reasons of Shariah رفع الحكم شرعى بدليل شرعى.”

I hope insha Allah this will clear up doubts in people's mind and set the record straight.

:w:
Preacher
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Mohsin
08-18-2005, 05:42 PM
I've been reading the biography of the Prophet SAW, called the Sealed Nectar
There's one part where a certain tribe killed 70 of the prophet SAW's companions, It says
Anas reported that for thirty days the Prophet SAW suplicated Allah against those who killed his companions at Ma'una Well. Every dawn prayer he would invoke Allah's wrath against Ri'l, Dhakwan, Lihyan and 'Usaiyah. He would say "Usaiyah disobeyed Allah and his Messenger" Therefore Allah sent down unto us His Messenger a Qu'ranic verse that we kept reciting till it was abrogated later on 'Inform our folk that we have encountered our Lord and he is satisfied with us and we are satisfied with Him' So the messenger of Allah SAW stopped his invocation.

Its from Sahih Bukhari 2/586-588. If anyone has the english translation its on page 301
I'm quite sure i've misunderstood what it's said, so can someone please help?
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Muhammad
08-21-2005, 06:01 PM
:sl:

Threads merged.

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
09-09-2005, 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by Moss
I've been reading the biography of the Prophet SAW, called the Sealed Nectar
There's one part where a certain tribe killed 70 of the prophet SAW's companions, It says
Anas reported that for thirty days the Prophet SAW suplicated Allah against those who killed his companions at Ma'una Well. Every dawn prayer he would invoke Allah's wrath against Ri'l, Dhakwan, Lihyan and 'Usaiyah. He would say "Usaiyah disobeyed Allah and his Messenger" Therefore Allah sent down unto us His Messenger a Qu'ranic verse that we kept reciting till it was abrogated later on 'Inform our folk that we have encountered our Lord and he is satisfied with us and we are satisfied with Him' So the messenger of Allah SAW stopped his invocation.

Its from Sahih Bukhari 2/586-588. If anyone has the english translation its on page 301
I'm quite sure i've misunderstood what it's said, so can someone please help?
:sl:
Yes, this is another classic example of abrogation.

For more detailed discussion on this subject, we can continue here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?p=77284
:w:
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Bittersteel
11-07-2005, 05:52 PM
what was the wisdom of abrogating the verse of stoning?Why was it abrogated?Did the Prophet(PBUH) used to notify which verses are abrogated?

:sl:
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