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Woodrow
12-30-2006, 07:32 PM
Originaly posted by Brother Zulkiflim


Salaam,

the question is ,,,do any American beleive any US politician should be punished likewise for arming and supporting saddam?

If the answer is no...why?

Even accomplices to murder is punished,and yet,the US has cavalierly given WMD to Saddam and encourged his murder of Kurds and Iranians...

will any US politician heads role?

If the answer is none,then all i cna say is the day will come when even repenting is of no use,the punishment will be where even stones burn.

Escaping Justice from this world ensures your Justice will be met in the next.

All the western world notion of Justice it seems is never oft pointed inwards but outwards,so can there be peace?
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Islamicboy
12-30-2006, 07:35 PM
True justice is with Allah on the last day Inshallah
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Curious girl2
12-30-2006, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Originaly posted by Brother Zulkiflim
I'm not American but yes, I think all those the formed the decision to invade Iraq should be investigated, preferably by a 3rd party, possibly the UN and if need be, prosecuted. Now either the intelligence gatherers deceived the decision makers over the WMD or the decision makers knew there wasnt any WMD there and decided to invade anyway. The *job* of sorting Saddam out should have fell to the international community.

But, will it make any difference now? Iraq is in a state of civil war, if the US and UK withdraw now what will it acheive? I dont know the answer, if they stay I cant see them bringing peace and if they go it will be mass slaughter. Perhaps the answer is for the muslim nations to send in troups to take over. I really dont know.

Peace CG
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Woodrow
12-30-2006, 07:46 PM
Excellent point curious girl:

Perhaps the answer is for the muslim nations to send in troups to take over. I really dont know.
That is the most sensible suggestion I have heard. It is agreed that Iraq is in Chaos. The pull out of any troops is going to result in slaughter. Now is the time the Muslim world needs to unite and form a peace keeping force to go in and help restore order to Iraq.
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Jayda
12-30-2006, 07:48 PM
i think so... just not punished like saddam... i hope i do not offend anybody with this (why does it seem like everytime i say this somebody gets offended?) but i do not believe in the death penalty and i think executing him... even though he was a monster... was wrong...

i think anybody connected to his crimes should be punished for their part in them...
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worldpolice
12-30-2006, 07:54 PM
Yes of course why double standard. One dictator is gone, and now it is time for the others.
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Woodrow
12-30-2006, 07:59 PM
I also agree that equal crimes deserve equal punishment, without regard as to who commits them.
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Trumble
12-30-2006, 08:10 PM
the question is ,,,do any American believe any US politician should be punished likewise for arming and supporting saddam?

If the answer is no...why?
No. Mainly because, inconvenient though the facts may be, the US didn't arm Saddam, the Russians (mainly) and French did. The 'precursor' chemicals for chemical weapons (nobody sold Iraq WMDs) came both from the US and (mostly) from elsewhere. That is not to say that the Reagan administration (and the British administration, and the German administration, and the Chinese administration, etc, etc...) didn't turn a blind-eye on occasion to the supply of 'dual-usage' goods and chemicals, or that they didn't supply some support (probably intelligence) once the Iran-Iraq war started. But the basic thesis that the US was responsible, or at least more so than anybody else, is simply untrue. The other reason is simply that the person ultimately responsible for what the US may have done in that period, Reagan, is now dead.

I'm British, rather than American, BTW.
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Dahir
12-30-2006, 08:14 PM




That picture speaks volumes on the term 'traitor' and that picture also speaks volumes about relationships.

Donald Rumsfeld was once a good friend of Saddam Hussein. Rumsfeld sold out Saddam Hussein and handed him over to his political rivals because Saddam failed to comply with their verbal contracts.

Shortly after, Rumsfeld lost his job and Saddam lost his life.

Two treasonous men met with cold judgement.


*the other men in the picture are assured to be sleeping with an open eye*
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Keltoi
12-30-2006, 08:21 PM
I don't think I would go as far as to call Rumsfeld and Saddam friends. Rumsfeld was a very good Secretary of Defense in my opinion, and became the fall guy due to his combative relationship with the media. It is common form of greeting when meeting the head of state of any country to at least shake hands. That is hardly signs of a friendship.

On this issue of whether U.S. politicians should somehow be held as responsible as Saddam for the atrocities he committed is a foolish notion to begin with. As Trumble mentioned in an earlier post, the U.S. had no more involvement in what Saddam Hussein chose to do or who he chose to kill any more than various other countries who did business or had some sort of political relationship with him.
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Trumble
12-30-2006, 08:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir
That picture speaks volumes on the term 'traitor' and that picture also speaks volumes about relationships.
No, it shows two people shaking hands. Sometimes diplomatic protocol involves doing that with people who wouldn't exactly be your first choice as dinner guests.

Perhaps you would like me to google up a few other 'famous' handshakes to see if you give them the same interpretation? Perhaps I should start with another Saddam 'shake', maybe that with arch Zionist and neo-con George Galloway?! :X
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Dahir
12-30-2006, 11:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I don't think I would go as far as to call Rumsfeld and Saddam friends. Rumsfeld was a very good Secretary of Defense in my opinion, and became the fall guy due to his combative relationship with the media.
Rumsfeld was handed one task: Defend America!

Under his watch, the United States was victim to its worst terror attack. Shortly after, he led the United States into one of the worst military campaigns in modern history; and his campaign of vengeance actually took the same number of American lives as the act which is supposed to avenge.

He is the definition of failure. At least George Bush and other incompetent leaders can say they had OTHER tasks; but Rummy had ONE task and he failed it to the highest degree humanly imaginable.

And THAT is not an overstatement. *OFF TOPIC -- sorry*


No, it shows two people shaking hands. Sometimes diplomatic protocol involves doing that with people who wouldn't exactly be your first choice as dinner guests.

Perhaps you would like me to google up a few other 'famous' handshakes to see if you give them the same interpretation? Perhaps I should start with another Saddam 'shake', maybe that with arch Zionist and neo-con George Galloway?! :X
They were diplomatic friends; is that more politically correct...

And as for Galloway, you just furthered my point; handshakes signal friendships. Galloway is a longtime and somewhat infamous friend of Galloway.
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imaad_udeen
12-30-2006, 11:15 PM
Only if it can be proven that they had a specific role in any of the massacres Saddam committed.
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Curious girl2
12-30-2006, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
Only if it can be proven that they had a specific role in any of the massacres Saddam committed.
Ok lets put it this way:

A man goes into a knife shop. He buys one then goes out onto the street and kills 3 people. Do you prosecute the shop keeper who sold him the knife. Probably not.

How about this:

A man goes into a knife shop. He asks for a knife, the shop keeper sells him one, despite knowing the man very well, knowing that he has a prior history of violence with knives and knowing that the man is looking mentally unstable. The man goes out onto the street and kills 3 people. Do you prosecute the shopkeeper?

YES! He has to take some responsibility for the deaths, he knew the man's history, knew that the man who was buying the knife would in likelyhood commit a violent offence. His excuse could have been that he thought the knife was for cutting bread. But in reality we know that was unlikely given the mans history.

All the countries that sold Saddam componants for WMD, knew Saddam's history. They knew he was a violent man, who had killed to get to the top, killed to stay there and would kill anyone who opposed him. Their excuse could have been that the componants also could have been used for innocent purposes. But in reality that defence wont stand, as all the leaders of the countries that sold componants to Saddam Hussein, knew about his violent history.

So, every single leader who was in power when their country sold componants for WMD to Saddam Hussein, is culpable. They knew what he was likely to do with them, but they still sold the weapons to him. No excuse, they should have been tried alongside him.

Peace CG
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Woodrow
12-31-2006, 12:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Curious girl2
Ok lets put it this way:

A man goes into a knife shop. He buys one then goes out onto the street and kills 3 people. Do you prosecute the shop keeper who sold him the knife. Probably not.

How about this:

A man goes into a knife shop. He asks for a knife, the shop keeper sells him one, despite knowing the man very well, knowing that he has a prior history of violence with knives and knowing that the man is looking mentally unstable. The man goes out onto the street and kills 3 people. Do you prosecute the shopkeeper?

YES! He has to take some responsibility for the deaths, he knew the man's history, knew that the man who was buying the knife would in likelyhood commit a violent offence. His excuse could have been that he thought the knife was for cutting bread. But in reality we know that was unlikely given the mans history.

All the countries that sold Saddam componants for WMD, knew Saddam's history. They knew he was a violent man, who had killed to get to the top, killed to stay there and would kill anyone who opposed him. Their excuse could have been that the componants also could have been used for innocent purposes. But in reality that defence wont stand, as all the leaders of the countries that sold componants to Saddam Hussein, knew about his violent history.

So, every single leader who was in power when their country sold componants for WMD to Saddam Hussein, is culpable. They knew what he was likely to do with them, but they still sold the weapons to him. No excuse, they should have been tried alongside him.

Peace CG
Paradoxoly that arguement is what is being used to prevent many countries from having Nuclear Reactors.
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AvarAllahNoor
12-31-2006, 12:34 AM
Well this Kurdish revolt against Saddam would have jeopordised
the relationship between Iraq and the U.S. So, all those that have been menntioned in previous posts all turned their eyes away and ignored what he was doing.

So yes, all should be held accountable and tried. But, what are the chances of that? Zilch. Let Waheguru deal with them in his own way.

Paapo Paap Kamaavday Paapay Pacheh Pachaa-ay.

Those who sin again and again, shall rot and die in sin.

(Guru Granth Sahib)
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snakelegs
12-31-2006, 02:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Curious girl2
Perhaps the answer is for the muslim nations to send in troups to take over. I really dont know.
this is what i would support - the u.s. stay until this all-muslim force is in place and then get out. after that, i think the amount of money that is spent on the military in iraq now, should continue to be spent on rebuilding the country, and putting it on a firm economic and political base. none of this $ should go to any u.s. or other corporations who have profited from this criminal war.
our condemnation of saddam hussein is sheer hypocrisy - we have never shied away from supporting ruthless dictators.
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SilentObserver
12-31-2006, 02:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
this is what i would support - the u.s. stay until this all-muslim force is in place and then get out. after that, i think the amount of money that is spent on the military in iraq now, should continue to be spent on rebuilding the country, and putting it on a firm economic and political base. none of this $ should go to any u.s. or other corporations who have profited from this criminal war.
our condemnation of saddam hussein is sheer hypocrisy - we have never shied away from supporting ruthless dictators.
Such a simple perfect answer. Why can't the world governments fiqure this out?
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Ann
12-31-2006, 02:48 AM
Im American and yes I think they should be punished but how to make that happen I havnt the first clue. Heres an interesting story along the same lines though...

Robert Fisk: A dictator created then destroyed by America

Published: 30 December 2006
http://news. independent. co.uk/world/ fisk/article2112 555.ece

Saddam to the gallows. It was an easy equation. Who could be more
deserving of that last walk to the scaffold - that crack of the neck
at the end of a rope - than the Beast of Baghdad, the Hitler of the
Tigris, the man who murdered untold hundreds of thousands of
innocent Iraqis while spraying chemical weapons over his enemies?
Our masters will tell us in a few hours that it is a "great day" for
Iraqis and will hope that the Muslim world will forget that his
death sentence was signed - by the Iraqi "government" , but on behalf
of the Americans - on the very eve of the Eid al-Adha, the Feast of
the Sacrifice, the moment of greatest forgiveness in the Arab world.

But history will record that the Arabs and other Muslims and,
indeed, many millions in the West, will ask another question this
weekend, a question that will not be posed in other Western
newspapers because it is not the narrative laid down for us by our
presidents and prime ministers - what about the other guilty men?

No, Tony Blair is not Saddam. We don't gas our enemies. George W
Bush is not Saddam. He didn't invade Iran or Kuwait. He only invaded
Iraq. But hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians are dead - and
thousands of Western troops are dead - because Messrs Bush and Blair
and the Spanish Prime Minister and the Italian Prime Minister and
the Australian Prime Minister went to war in 2003 on a potage of
lies and mendacity and, given the weapons we used, with great
brutality.

In the aftermath of the international crimes against humanity of
2001 we have tortured, we have murdered, we have brutalised and
killed the innocent - we have even added our shame at Abu Ghraib to
Saddam's shame at Abu Ghraib - and yet we are supposed to forget
these terrible crimes as we applaud the swinging corpse of the
dictator we created.

Who encouraged Saddam to invade Iran in 1980, which was the greatest
war crime he has committed for it led to the deaths of a million and
a half souls? And who sold him the components for the chemical
weapons with which he drenched Iran and the Kurds? We did. No wonder
the Americans, who controlled Saddam's weird trial, forbad any
mention of this, his most obscene atrocity, in the charges against
him. Could he not have been handed over to the Iranians for
sentencing for this massive war crime? Of course not. Because that
would also expose our culpability.

And the mass killings we perpetrated in 2003 with our depleted
uranium shells and our "bunker buster" bombs and our phosphorous,
the murderous post-invasion sieges of Fallujah and Najaf, the hell-
disaster of anarchy we unleashed on the Iraqi population in the
aftermath of our "victory" - our "mission accomplished" - who will
be found guilty of this? Such expiation as we might expect will
come, no doubt, in the self-serving memoirs of Blair and Bush,
written in comfortable and wealthy retirement.

Hours before Saddam's death sentence, his family - his first wife,
Sajida, and Saddam's daughter and their other relatives - had given
up hope.

"Whatever could be done has been done - we can only wait for time to
take its course," one of them said last night. But Saddam knew, and
had already announced his own "martyrdom": he was still the
president of Iraq and he would die for Iraq. All condemned men face
a decision: to die with a last, grovelling plea for mercy or to die
with whatever dignity they can wrap around themselves in their last
hours on earth. His last trial appearance - that wan smile that
spread over the mass-murderer' s face - showed us which path Saddam
intended to walk to the noose.

I have catalogued his monstrous crimes over the years. I have talked
to the Kurdish survivors of Halabja and the Shia who rose up against
the dictator at our request in 1991 and who were betrayed by us -
and whose comrades, in their tens of thousands, along with their
wives, were hanged like thrushes by Saddam's executioners.

I have walked round the execution chamber of Abu Ghraib - only
months, it later transpired, after we had been using the same prison
for a few tortures and killings of our own - and I have watched
Iraqis pull thousands of their dead relatives from the mass graves
of Hilla. One of them has a newly-inserted artificial hip and a
medical identification number on his arm. He had been taken directly
from hospital to his place of execution. Like Donald Rumsfeld, I
have even shaken the dictator's soft, damp hand. Yet the old war
criminal finished his days in power writing romantic novels.

It was my colleague, Tom Friedman - now a messianic columnist for
The New York Times - who perfectly caught Saddam's character just
before the 2003 invasion: Saddam was, he wrote, "part Don Corleone,
part Donald Duck". And, in this unique definition, Friedman caught
the horror of all dictators; their sadistic attraction and the
grotesque, unbelievable nature of their barbarity.

But that is not how the Arab world will see him. At first, those who
suffered from Saddam's cruelty will welcome his execution. Hundreds
wanted to pull the hangman's lever. So will many other Kurds and
Shia outside Iraq welcome his end. But they - and millions of other
Muslims - will remember how he was informed of his death sentence at
the dawn of the Eid al-Adha feast, which recalls the would-be
sacrifice by Abraham, of his son, a commemoration which even the
ghastly Saddam cynically used to celebrate by releasing prisoners
from his jails. "Handed over to the Iraqi authorities, " he may have
been before his death. But his execution will go down - correctly -
as an American affair and time will add its false but lasting gloss
to all this - that the West destroyed an Arab leader who no longer
obeyed his orders from Washington, that, for all his wrongdoing (and
this will be the terrible get-out for Arab historians, this shaving
away of his crimes) Saddam died a "martyr" to the will of the
new "Crusaders".

When he was captured in November of 2003, the insurgency against
American troops increased in ferocity. After his death, it will
redouble in intensity again. Freed from the remotest possibility of
Saddam's return by his execution, the West's enemies in Iraq have no
reason to fear the return of his Baathist regime. Osama bin Laden
will certainly rejoice, along with Bush and Blair. And there's a
thought. So many crimes avenged.

But we will have got away with it.
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Ann
12-31-2006, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Curious girl2
I'm not American but yes, I think all those the formed the decision to invade Iraq should be investigated, preferably by a 3rd party, possibly the UN and if need be, prosecuted. Now either the intelligence gatherers deceived the decision makers over the WMD or the decision makers knew there wasnt any WMD there and decided to invade anyway. The *job* of sorting Saddam out should have fell to the international community.

But, will it make any difference now? Iraq is in a state of civil war, if the US and UK withdraw now what will it acheive? I dont know the answer, if they stay I cant see them bringing peace and if they go it will be mass slaughter. Perhaps the answer is for the muslim nations to send in troups to take over. I really dont know.

Peace CG
Too bad though that the UN is not always effective. I mean heck they still cant get Isreal to withdrawl from occupied territory in accordance with the resolution they passed in 1967.......so even if they did investigate...how long then for justice to catch up with the US goverment...only Allah knows.
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YusufNoor
12-31-2006, 03:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dahir




That picture speaks volumes on the term 'traitor' and that picture also speaks volumes about relationships.

Donald Rumsfeld was once a good friend of Saddam Hussein. Rumsfeld sold out Saddam Hussein and handed him over to his political rivals because Saddam failed to comply with their verbal contracts.

Shortly after, Rumsfeld lost his job and Saddam lost his life.

Two treasonous men met with cold judgement.


*the other men in the picture are assured to be sleeping with an open eye*
:sl:


iirc, THAT picture is older than half of the folks on this forum. also, iirc, the US supported Saddam during the cold war! every move made by US politicians was accompanied by some major CYA. if they needed something done on the sly, they got "Wild Bill" Casey, Olllie North and Admiral Poindexter to do it...

if you're going to charge folks for dealing with "criminal" or "ruthless" governments, who would be left to deal with the majority of "Muslim" governments?

i also hear whispers that the US is a democracy? when the heck did THAT happen??:?

:w:
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hamidah
12-31-2006, 04:06 AM
salams..
pple i thnk saddam's crime was one but excution with video taped was horrible and unforgiving for those who lost their families during his time the video taape is not going to bring the dead pple u kno and celebrating isnt eitheer so i would say ur country is burnnig with unturnable flame
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Skillganon
12-31-2006, 04:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ann
Too bad though that the UN is not always effective. I mean heck they still cant get Isreal to withdrawl from occupied territory in accordance with the resolution they passed in 1967.......so even if they did investigate...how long then for justice to catch up with the US goverment...only Allah knows.
Well the UN may be more of a proxy (a front) to get the powerful out of trouble. I really will not put my trust in them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Curouse Girl2
I'm not American but yes, I think all those the formed the decision to invade Iraq should be investigated, preferably by a 3rd party, possibly the UN and if need be, prosecuted. Now either the intelligence gatherers deceived the decision makers over the WMD or the decision makers knew there wasnt any WMD there and decided to invade anyway. The *job* of sorting Saddam out should have fell to the international community.
Actually their was such an attempt "The World Tributional on Iraq" (WTI) was a worldwide undertaking to reclaim justice, by recording the severe violations that were committed in the process leading up to the aggression against Iraq, during the war and occupation, and that continue to be widespread to this day. This program is one of sixteen from WTI held in Istanbul, Turkey in June 2005.

Some of the videos can be found here: http://www.freespeech.org/fscm2/genx...e=iraq_reports
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worldpolice
12-31-2006, 09:44 AM
Trumble, you don't know the history. You only know the Iraq's relations with US after the first Gulfwar (1990) which was of course a bitter relation. Go back and see how Iraq and US relation were during the Iran and Iraq war. Check who supported Saddam to fight Iran. More info also can be seen here How did the U.S. view Iraq before the Gulf crisis of 1990-91.pdf

Curious girl2, your argument can apply to a street thugs and fighters but for what we are discussion of. Can we buy nuclear arms from a knife shop? don't try to come up with reasons to go away from the fact.
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Trumble
12-31-2006, 10:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by worldpolice
Trumble, you don't know the history. You only know the Iraq's relations with US after the first Gulfwar (1990) which was of course a bitter relation. Go back and see how Iraq and US relation were during the Iran and Iraq war. Check who supported Saddam to fight Iran.
I seem to know far more of it than you do, and have commented on it in your other thread. Why don't you go 'check' who it was who actually provided the arms with which Iraq fought Iran? If you are lazy, I have already posted the answer elsewhere. Hint... it wasn't the United States. Of course the US 'supported' Iraq to some extent. If you knew the history, you would know why.
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worldpolice
12-31-2006, 10:28 AM
Trumble, there is no doubt that you are one of the many general public who belive that is told to the public. Well, I don't want to argue with you, but I don't trust what is been told to the general public.
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Zulkiflim
12-31-2006, 10:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
No. Mainly because, inconvenient though the facts may be, the US didn't arm Saddam, the Russians (mainly) and French did. The 'precursor' chemicals for chemical weapons (nobody sold Iraq WMDs) came both from the US and (mostly) from elsewhere. That is not to say that the Reagan administration (and the British administration, and the German administration, and the Chinese administration, etc, etc...) didn't turn a blind-eye on occasion to the supply of 'dual-usage' goods and chemicals, or that they didn't supply some support (probably intelligence) once the Iran-Iraq war started. But the basic thesis that the US was responsible, or at least more so than anybody else, is simply untrue. The other reason is simply that the person ultimately responsible for what the US may have done in that period, Reagan, is now dead.

I'm British, rather than American, BTW.
Salaam,

thank for the answer ,,,so maybe we cna extend the question to the other coutnries that supplied saddam with WMD..

And to show that the US did INTENTIONALLY arm saddam and kept quite while saddam killed his own people and iranins...read this..

U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup
Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds

By Michael Dobbs
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 30, 2002; Page A01


High on the Bush administration's list of justifications for war against Iraq are President Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons, nuclear and biological programs, and his contacts with international terrorists.

What U.S. officials rarely acknowledge is that these offenses date back to a period when Hussein was seen in Washington as a valued ally.

Among the people instrumental in tilting U.S. policy toward Baghdad during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war was Donald H. Rumsfeld, now defense secretary, whose December 1983 meeting with Hussein as a special presidential envoy paved the way for normalization of U.S.-Iraqi relations.

Declassified documents show that Rumsfeld traveled to Baghdad at a time when Iraq was using chemical weapons on an "almost daily" basis in defiance of international conventions.

The story of U.S. involvement with Saddam Hussein in the years before his 1990 attack on Kuwait -- which included large-scale intelligence sharing, supply of cluster bombs through a Chilean front company, and facilitating Iraq's acquisition of chemical and biological precursors -- is a topical example of the underside of U.S. foreign policy.

It is a world in which deals can be struck with dictators, human rights violations sometimes overlooked, and accommodations made with arms proliferators, all on the principle that the "enemy of my enemy is my friend."

Throughout the 1980s, Hussein's Iraq was the sworn enemy of Iran, then still in the throes of an Islamic revolution. U.S. officials saw Baghdad as a bulwark against militant Shiite extremism and the fall of pro-American states such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and even Jordan -- a Middle East version of the "domino theory" in Southeast Asia. That was enough to turn Hussein into a strategic partner and for U.S. diplomats in Baghdad to routinely refer to Iraqi forces as "the good guys," in contrast to the Iranians, who were depicted as "the bad guys."

A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former policymakers shows that U.S. intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defenses against the "human wave" attacks by suicidal Iranian troops. The administrations of

Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.

Opinions differ among Middle East experts and former government officials about the pre-Iraqi tilt, and whether Washington could have done more to stop the flow to Baghdad of technology for building weapons of mass destruction.

"It was a horrible mistake then, but we have got it right now," says Kenneth M. Pollack, a former CIA military analyst and author of "The Threatening Storm," which makes the case for war with Iraq. "My fellow [CIA] analysts and I were warning at the time that Hussein was a very nasty character. We were constantly fighting the State Department."

"Fundamentally, the policy was justified," argues David Newton, a former U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, who runs an anti-Hussein radio station in Prague. "We were concerned that Iraq should not lose the war with Iran, because that would have threatened Saudi Arabia and the Gulf. Our long-term hope was that Hussein's government would become less repressive and more responsible."

What makes present-day Hussein different from the Hussein of the 1980s, say Middle East experts, is the mellowing of the Iranian revolution and the August 1990 invasion of Kuwait that transformed the Iraqi dictator, almost overnight, from awkward ally into mortal enemy. In addition, the United States itself has changed. As a result of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, U.S. policymakers take a much more alarmist view of the threat posed by the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

U.S. Shifts in Iran-Iraq War

When the Iran-Iraq war began in September 1980, with an Iraqi attack across the Shatt al Arab waterway that leads to the Persian Gulf, the United States was a bystander.

The United States did not have diplomatic relations with either Baghdad or Tehran. U.S. officials had almost as little sympathy for Hussein's dictatorial brand of Arab nationalism as for the Islamic fundamentalism espoused by Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. As long as the two countries fought their way to a stalemate, nobody in Washington was disposed to intervene.

By the summer of 1982, however, the strategic picture had changed dramatically. After its initial gains, Iraq was on the defensive, and Iranian troops had advanced to within a few miles of Basra, Iraq's second largest city. U.S. intelligence information suggested the Iranians might achieve a breakthrough on the Basra front, destabilizing Kuwait, the Gulf states, and even Saudi Arabia, thereby threatening U.S. oil supplies.

"You have to understand the geostrategic context, which was very different from where we are now," said Howard Teicher, a former National Security Council official, who worked on Iraqi policy during the Reagan administration. "Realpolitik dictated that we act to prevent the situation from getting worse."

To prevent an Iraqi collapse, the Reagan administration supplied battlefield intelligence on Iranian troop buildups to the Iraqis, sometimes through third parties such as Saudi Arabia.

The U.S. tilt toward Iraq was enshrined in National Security Decision Directive 114 of Nov. 26, 1983, one of the few important Reagan era foreign policy decisions that still remains classified.

According to former U.S. officials, the directive stated that the United States would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing the war with Iran.

The presidential directive was issued amid a flurry of reports that Iraqi forces were using chemical weapons in their attempts to hold back the Iranians.

In principle, Washington was strongly opposed to chemical warfare, a practice outlawed by the 1925 Geneva Protocol. In practice, U.S. condemnation of Iraqi use of chemical weapons ranked relatively low on the scale of administration priorities, particularly compared with the all-important goal of preventing an Iranian victory.

Thus, on Nov. 1, 1983, a senior State Department official, Jonathan T. Howe, told Secretary of State George P. Shultz that intelligence reports showed that Iraqi troops were resorting to "almost daily use of CW" against the Iranians. But the Reagan administration had already committed itself to a large-scale diplomatic and political overture to Baghdad, culminating in several visits by the president's recently appointed special envoy to the Middle East, Donald H. Rumsfeld.

Secret talking points prepared for the first Rumsfeld visit to Baghdad enshrined some of the language from NSDD 114, including the statement that the United States would regard "any major reversal of Iraq's fortunes as a strategic defeat for the West." When Rumsfeld finally met with Hussein on Dec. 20, he told the Iraqi leader that Washington was ready for a resumption of full diplomatic relations, according to a State Department report of the conversation. Iraqi leaders later described themselves as "extremely pleased" with the Rumsfeld visit, which had "elevated U.S.-Iraqi relations to a new level."

In a September interview with CNN, Rumsfeld said he "cautioned" Hussein about the use of chemical weapons, a claim at odds with declassified State Department notes of his 90-minute meeting with the Iraqi leader.

A Pentagon spokesman, Brian Whitman, now says that Rumsfeld raised the issue not with Hussein, but with Iraqi foreign minister Tariq Aziz. The State Department notes show that he mentioned it largely in passing as one of several matters that "inhibited" U.S. efforts to assist Iraq.

Rumsfeld has also said he had "nothing to do" with helping Iraq in its war against Iran. Although former U.S. officials agree that Rumsfeld was not one of the architects of the Reagan administration's tilt toward Iraq -- he was a private citizen when he was appointed Middle East envoy -- the documents show that his visits to Baghdad led to closer U.S.-Iraqi cooperation on a wide variety of fronts. Washington was willing to resume diplomatic relations immediately, but Hussein insisted on delaying such a step until the following year.

As part of its opening to Baghdad, the Reagan administration removed Iraq from the State Department terrorism list in February 1982, despite heated objections from Congress. Without such a move, Teicher says, it would have been "impossible to take even the modest steps we were contemplating" to channel assistance to Baghdad. Iraq -- along with Syria, Libya and South Yemen -- was one of four original countries on the list, which was first drawn up in 1979.

Some former U.S. officials say that removing Iraq from the terrorism list provided an incentive to Hussein to expel the Palestinian guerrilla leader Abu Nidal from Baghdad in 1983. On the other hand, Iraq continued to play host to alleged terrorists throughout the '80s. The most notable was Abu Abbas, leader of the Palestine Liberation Front, who found refuge in Baghdad after being expelled from Tunis for masterminding the 1985 hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro, which resulted in the killing of an elderly American tourist.

Iraq Lobbies for Arms

While Rumsfeld was talking to Hussein and Aziz in Baghdad, Iraqi diplomats and weapons merchants were fanning out across Western capitals for a diplomatic charm offensive-cum-arms buying spree. In Washington, the key figure was the Iraqi chargé d'affaires, Nizar Hamdoon, a fluent English speaker who impressed Reagan administration officials as one of the most skillful lobbyists in town.

"He arrived with a blue shirt and a white tie, straight out of the mafia," recalled Geoffrey Kemp, a Middle East specialist in the Reagan White House. "Within six months, he was hosting suave dinner parties at his residence, which he parlayed into a formidable lobbying effort. He was particularly effective with the American Jewish community."

One of Hamdoon's favorite props, says Kemp, was a green Islamic scarf allegedly found on the body of an Iranian soldier. The scarf was decorated with a map of the Middle East showing a series of arrows pointing toward Jerusalem. Hamdoon used to "parade the scarf" to conferences and congressional hearings as proof that an Iranian victory over Iraq would result in "Israel becoming a victim along with the Arabs."

According to a sworn court affidavit prepared by Teicher in 1995, the United States "actively supported the Iraqi war effort by supplying the Iraqis with billions of dollars of credits, by providing military intelligence and advice to the Iraqis, and by closely monitoring third country arms sales to Iraq to make sure Iraq had the military weaponry required."

Teicher said in the affidavit that former CIA director William Casey used a Chilean company, Cardoen, to supply Iraq with cluster bombs that could be used to disrupt the Iranian human wave attacks. Teicher refuses to discuss the affidavit.

At the same time the Reagan administration was facilitating the supply of weapons and military components to Baghdad, it was attempting to cut off supplies to Iran under "Operation Staunch." Those efforts were largely successful, despite the glaring anomaly of the 1986 Iran-contra scandal when the White House publicly admitted trading arms for hostages, in violation of the policy that the United States was trying to impose on the rest of the world.

Although U.S. arms manufacturers were not as deeply involved as German or British companies in selling weaponry to Iraq, the Reagan administration effectively turned a blind eye to the export of "dual use" items such as chemical precursors and steel tubes that can have military and civilian applications.

According to several former officials, the State and Commerce departments promoted trade in such items as a way to boost U.S. exports and acquire political leverage over Hussein.

When United Nations weapons inspectors were allowed into Iraq after the 1991 Gulf War, they compiled long lists of chemicals, missile components, and computers from American suppliers, including such household names as Union Carbide and Honeywell, which were being used for military purposes.

A 1994 investigation by the Senate Banking Committee turned up dozens of biological agents shipped to Iraq during the mid-'80s under license from the Commerce Department, including various strains of anthrax, subsequently identified by the Pentagon as a key component of the Iraqi biological warfare program. The Commerce Department also approved the export of insecticides to Iraq, despite widespread suspicions that they were being used for chemical warfare.


The fact that Iraq was using chemical weapons was hardly a secret. In February 1984, an Iraqi military spokesman effectively acknowledged their use by issuing a chilling warning to Iran. "The invaders should know that for every harmful insect, there is an insecticide capable of annihilating it . . . and Iraq possesses this annihilation insecticide."

Chemicals Kill Kurds

In late 1987, the Iraqi air force began using chemical agents against Kurdish resistance forces in northern Iraq that had formed a loose alliance with Iran, according to State Department reports. The attacks, which were part of a "scorched earth" strategy to eliminate rebel-controlled villages, provoked outrage on Capitol Hill and renewed demands for sanctions against Iraq. The State Department and White House were also outraged -- but not to the point of doing anything that might seriously damage relations with Baghdad.

"The U.S.-Iraqi relationship is . . . important to our long-term political and economic objectives," Assistant Secretary of State Richard W. Murphy wrote in a September 1988 memorandum that addressed the chemical weapons question. "We believe that economic sanctions will be useless or counterproductive to influence the Iraqis."

Bush administration spokesmen have cited Hussein's use of chemical weapons "against his own people" -- and particularly the March 1988 attack on the Kurdish village of Halabjah -- to bolster their argument that his regime presents a "grave and gathering danger" to the United States.

The Iraqis continued to use chemical weapons against the Iranians until the end of the Iran-Iraq war. A U.S. air force intelligence officer, Rick Francona, reported finding widespread use of Iraqi nerve gas when he toured the Al Faw peninsula in southern Iraq in the summer of 1988, after its recapture by the Iraqi army. The battlefield was littered with atropine injectors used by panicky Iranian troops as an antidote against Iraqi nerve gas attacks.

Far from declining, the supply of U.S. military intelligence to Iraq actually expanded in 1988, according to a 1999 book by Francona, "Ally to Adversary: an Eyewitness Account of Iraq's Fall from Grace." Informed sources said much of the battlefield intelligence was channeled to the Iraqis by the CIA office in Baghdad.

Although U.S. export controls to Iraq were tightened up in the late 1980s, there were still many loopholes. In December 1988, Dow Chemical sold $1.5 million of pesticides to Iraq, despite U.S. government concerns that they could be used as chemical warfare agents. An Export-Import Bank official reported in a memorandum that he could find "no reason" to stop the sale, despite evidence that the pesticides were "highly toxic" to humans and would cause death "from asphyxiation."

The U.S. policy of cultivating Hussein as a moderate and reasonable Arab leader continued right up until he invaded Kuwait in August 1990, documents show. When the then-U.S. ambassador to Baghdad, April Glaspie, met with Hussein on July 25, 1990, a week before the Iraqi attack on Kuwait, she assured him that Bush "wanted better and deeper relations," according to an Iraqi transcript of the conversation. "President Bush is an intelligent man," the ambassador told Hussein, referring to the father of the current president. "He is not going to declare an economic war against Iraq."

"Everybody was wrong in their assessment of Saddam," said Joe Wilson, Glaspie's former deputy at the U.S. embassy in Baghdad, and the last U.S. official to meet with Hussein. "Everybody in the Arab world told us that the best way to deal with Saddam was to develop a set of economic and commercial relationships that would have the effect of moderating his behavior. History will demonstrate that this was a miscalculation."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

So in short,the US did supply arm and encouraged arms sales.

To find out more about the US aid towards Saddam,do search google,there is a lot to read when you want to find out the truth.

So hopefully given this knowledge,do you think that the people who thought they were doing right by arming saddam and providing intelligence to kill Kurds and Iranian,should be punished?

For the US fear of Iran winning,is it right to let murderer go?
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
12-31-2006, 06:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hamidah
salams..
pple i thnk saddam's crime was one but excution with video taped was horrible and unforgiving for those who lost their families during his time the video taape is not going to bring the dead pple u kno and celebrating isnt eitheer so i would say ur country is burnnig with unturnable flame
Agreed. They all condemned Zarqawi for doing this, and yet their behavior hasn't been an improvement.

It's the hipocrisy that bothers me. Suddam and Bush are the same animal. When America was threatened, Bush attacked and killed thousands of innocent people. When Suddam was threatened, he attacked and killed thousands of innocent people. I see no difference in behavior, cause and effect are the exact same. It is obvious that this will not be resolved on the level of intelligence, so it will come down to the sword. Bush knows this which is exactly why he's trying to seduce the foreign aliens with a promise of citizenship in exchange for military service, but I caution those foreigners... they will be walking point and therefore will have little chance for survival. They are just a league of expendible pawns.

I honestly can't find a day in my life I have ever been more disgusted with the world.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Zulkiflim
12-31-2006, 07:56 PM
Salaam,

the Question that is on my mind is ,,what are Iraqis muslim in US doing to redress the grievances?Or any US muslim who knows this,what are they doing?

Is Saddam death all there is to it for them?
Is it just the Baath that they want to suffer?
Is it just the sunnis that they hate?

Or do they fear the US?
Or do they fear reprisal should they try to seek justice?
Or is it unpatriotic to to condemn your own country?
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
12-31-2006, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Or do they fear the US?
Or do they fear reprisal should they try to seek justice?
Or is it unpatriotic to to condemn your own country?
They cannot speak freely without risking the closure of their mosques. This has happened recently here in Boston. They are not allowed to challenge the Bush Administration, not without becoming named and therefore, watched.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Woodrow
12-31-2006, 10:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

the Question that is on my mind is ,,what are Iraqis muslim in US doing to redress the grievances?Or any US muslim who knows this,what are they doing?

Is Saddam death all there is to it for them?
Is it just the Baath that they want to suffer?
Is it just the sunnis that they hate?

Or do they fear the US?
Or do they fear reprisal should they try to seek justice?
Or is it unpatriotic to to condemn your own country?
Is Saddam death all there is to it for them?
I can only speak of what I saw at the Masjid I attend. Our Population at the Masjid for Friday Jummah seems to be about 75-80% Pakistani, 15% Somali and the remainder Reverts from Texas. Typicaly about 2 to 3 hundred Brothers will show up for Friday Jummah.

At least a thousand were there today nearly all of Asian heritage., but I only saw about 20 Somalians and the regular group of reverts. The Imam is from Pakistan. His second sermon was basicaly that we need to seek a legal means to assure justice is done. Only about 200 of us went out for lunch together although everybody at the Masjid was invited. It was a lively topic of discussion. The majority consensus was that Saddam brought it upon himself and that Bush should have taken Saddam out of power before he had done any damage. I do not know about the other Masjids in Austin, there are 4 others not counting the one at the Islamic Center at the University of Texas. One of the other Masjids is predominatly Saudi Arabian and one is predominatly Iranian. The remaining ones are a good mixture of people from many heritages.

I just mention all that to show that I can not speak for the vast majority of the Muslims in Austin and only know what happened at the Masjid I go to.


Is it just the Baath that they want to suffer?
No, from what I seen today there was some sympathy for Saddam and it seemed to be that he had let power corrupt him. I did not see any blame being directed towards any single group in Iraq.

Is it just the sunnis that they hate?
Who, Muslims hating Sunnis? I must not be understanding the question.

Or do they fear the US?
I have yet to see any Muslim in Austin express any fear of the US.


Or do they fear reprisal should they try to seek justice?
I don't think there is any agreement as to what would constitute Justice. However, I have yet to see anybody express any fear.

Or is it unpatriotic to to condemn your own country?
Here I can not speak for anybody except the US citizens that attend the Masjid. At least half of the Pakistani Brothers do not hold US citisenship. But, speaking formyself I see it as being unpatriotic if you see the government doing wrong and do not speak out against it. each American Citizen has a duty to keep the Government in check.
Reply

budda
01-22-2007, 06:25 AM
No, not at all. I am 100% sure that any other country in the same situation as the U.S. would have done the same thing. Iran was our enemy so in turn the enemy of our enemy was our friend...for awhile anyway. It was a mistake to give Saddam such technology but the Russians are just as guilty as the U.S. for supplying weapons to Iraq. It is an unfortunate series of events but the U.S. never supported Saddam's policy of Genocide against the Kurds. And had we tried to stop him I imagine we would be accused of being "imperialists". So is the label superpowers deal with no matter what we do.
Reply

budda
01-22-2007, 06:26 AM
May I add I am also certain that even if Saddam did not have chemical weapons he would have still pursued his brutal agenda.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
01-22-2007, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Curious girl2
I'm not American but yes, I think all those the formed the decision to invade Iraq should be investigated, preferably by a 3rd party, possibly the UN and if need be, prosecuted. Now either the intelligence gatherers deceived the decision makers over the WMD or the decision makers knew there wasnt any WMD there and decided to invade anyway. The *job* of sorting Saddam out should have fell to the international community.

But, will it make any difference now? Iraq is in a state of civil war, if the US and UK withdraw now what will it acheive? I dont know the answer, if they stay I cant see them bringing peace and if they go it will be mass slaughter. Perhaps the answer is for the muslim nations to send in troups to take over. I really dont know.

Peace CG
I am American and I agree that heads should role over this. The civil war in Iraq was based on a similar problem, believing bad intel at face value (namely who was responsible for the February 22nd bombing of the Askyara mosque) - but that can be corrected, if the two extreme Councils (Al Baghdadi and Al Sadr) can meet and form an alliance, which in turn would result in a cease fire between them. As for the rest of the leaders, they're moderates who could care less which way the feather falls, so they don't concern me.

All in all, the people who were responsible for creating this nightmare, should hang for it, not profit by it.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
01-22-2007, 05:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by budda
It is an unfortunate series of events but the U.S. never supported Saddam's policy of Genocide against the Kurds.
It is much more than an 'unfortunate series of events' and the matter of U.S. involvement with Saddam's policy of genocide against the Kurds has not been put on the appropriate tables just yet. You're speculating on issues that haven't even been carefully examined.

But as they say, it will all come out in the wash.

Ninth Scribe
Reply

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