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SilentObserver
12-31-2006, 02:38 AM
I have noticed that there are threads for the purpose of asking christians and jews questions about their religions, but none for Sikhs. I also noticed that I know squat about the sikh religion.

So I have started this thread with the hopes that our sikh members will answer our questions when they have time.

Please, no debating. Just questions and answers. If you don't agee with a particular point that is made in an answer, then start another thread for the purpose of debate.

I would first ask if a sikh member could just give us a quick summary of their religion.

Second, a specific question. A member used the name Waheguru, in a post. Who is Waheguru?
Reply

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netprince
12-31-2006, 03:17 AM
Firstly i am not sikh so apologies to any sikhs (im sure Avar can correct me if im wrong :) if i have answered incorrectly. This post should be interesting, give us all a chance to learn a bit more about sikhism.

The first part i will leave to one of the sikh members as they are best placed to summarise there beliefs. In answer to the second part, Wahagur refers to God.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
12-31-2006, 03:19 AM
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh (Pure ones belong to God, and victory to God)

Hi.

Well Sikhs orignate from the Panjab (India) Between 1469 and 1708, ten Gurus preached a simple message of truth, devotion to God, and universal equality. Often mistaken as a combination of Hinduism and Islam, the Sikh religion can be characterized as a completely independent faith

I's one of the youngest of the World religions. Its founder Guru Nanak Dev was born in a village called Talwandi, now known as Nankana Sahib in Pakistan, in 1469.

The Sikhs have ten Gurus. It is believed that they all had same soul though they had different bodies, and that it was Guru Nanak Dev's spirit which passed on into his nine successors.

Ten Gurus

Guru Nanak who was born at Talwandi in the Punjab in A.D. 1469. During his life time he visited many sacred places in India, central Asia and Middle East including Mecca. He was well versed in the scriptures of all the major religions including Christianity and Judaism. He preached a liberal path, which is known today as sikhism

His teachings in the form of religious hymns are preserved in the Gurugranth Sahib, which is the sacred scripture of the Sikhs. Guru Nanak passed away in A.D.1538 and was followed by a succession of nine gurus whose names are mentioned below:

2. Guru Angad

3. Guru Amardas

4. Guru Ramdas

5. Guru Arjan

6.Guru Har Gobind

7. Guru Har Rai:

8. Guru Har Krishan

9. Guru Teg Bahadur

10. Guru Gobind Singh (1675-1708)


Sikhism rejects idolatry, the caste system, ritualism, and asceticism. It recognizes the equality between both genders and all religions, prohibits the intake of any intoxicants, and encourages an honest, truthful living. Sikhs have their own holy scripture, Guru Granth Sahib. Written, composed, and compiled by the Sikh Gurus themselves, the Guru Granth Sahib serves as the ultimate source of spiritual guidance for Sikhs. While the Sikhs hold their Gurus in high reverence, they are not to be worshipped; Sikhs may only worship God.



We are not allowed to worship any idols, images or photographs.
According to the Sikh belief, God is the eternal truth; he is beyond fear, enmity and death. He is unborn and is self illuminated. He himself is the creator, preserver and destroyer.

The Sikhs believe that all existence is controlled by one omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient Lord called by different names: Ishwar, Jehovah, Allah and Waheguru, God


The belief of the Sikhs in Waheguru is similar to that of Judaism, Christianity and Islam i.e., God is the greatest power, He is supreme, He is the king of kings, He pervades everywhere, He knows the inner thoughts of everyone, He is the giver, He existed before the start of the time, He existed when the time was started, He exists now and He will exist forever.

Relationship with God:

The Sikh Gurus called Waheguru as Master and themselves as his servants. In some hymns they called Him as Father, Mother, Friend and Brother as well1. Like Jesus Christ, Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Guru of the Sikhs, in one of his hymns, called himself as God’s son.

Universality:

Sikhism does not believe in asceticism, celibacy or living alone at mountains or in caves or in forests in the search of Truth and God. It also rejects the orders of monasteries. For a Sikh the true life is the life of a householder. Living in a family environment and by serving the community both Truth and God can be realised. Thus it rejects the order of monks (Buddhism and Jainism) and nuns (Christianity).

The Sikh teachings are based on the principles of Fatherhood of God and brotherhood of humankind.

Sikhism rejects the concept of chosen people (as in Judaism) and caste system (as in Hinduism); it also rejects the concept of entering `Nirvana’ without the blessings of God (as in Buddhism and Jainism).

In a Sikh temple people of all the faiths are welcome. The Sikh holy book, Guru Granth Sahib also has in it the hymns composed by both Hindu and Muslim saints of various denominations.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
12-31-2006, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Second, a specific question. A member used the name Waheguru, in a post. Who is Waheguru?
Waheguru is God (Wonderful Teacher)
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SilentObserver
12-31-2006, 03:47 AM
Please bear with me, it may take a little time for me to grasp the full idea.

So when Guru Nanak Dev's spirit was passed on, the successor was already living it looks like from the dates. The dates are the duration of their teaching I assume? Not their lifespan, correct? So, assuming that they were alive when recieving Guru Nanak Dev's spirit, was their original spirit displaced? Or was the body shared?
Guru Teg Bahadur and Guru Gobind Singh were alive at the same time, I will need help understanding the logistics of the soul for these two.
Guru Har Rai was only shown for the year 1630, and this was during the time of Guru Har Gobind. Again, I'll need help understanding.

Thank you.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
12-31-2006, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Please bear with me, it may take a little time for me to grasp the full idea.

So when Guru Nanak Dev's spirit was passed on, the successor was already living it looks like from the dates. The dates are the duration of their teaching I assume? Not their lifespan, correct? So, assuming that they were alive when recieving Guru Nanak Dev's spirit, was their original spirit displaced? Or was the body shared?

Guru Teg Bahadur and Guru Gobind Singh were alive at the same time, I will need help understanding the logistics of the soul for these two.
Guru Har Rai was only shown for the year 1630, and this was during the time of Guru Har Gobind. Again, I'll need help understanding.

Thank you.
Sorry the dates i wrote are wrong. I'll post the actual ones shortly.
Reply

glo
12-31-2006, 03:12 PM
What kind of status do gurus have?

Somebody (not a Sikh) once told me that they are considered god-like/divine. Is that true?
I find that hard of believe, since Sikhism teaches that there is ony one God.

Thanks.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
12-31-2006, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by glo
What kind of status do gurus have?

Somebody (not a Sikh) once told me that they are considered god-like/divine. Is that true?
I find that hard of believe, since Sikhism teaches that there is ony one God.

Thanks.
The Gurus in Sikhism are enlighteners. They are the messengers of the Timeless (God). They renew the eternal wisdom. They are universal Prophets who free our minds from bigotry and superstitions, dogmas and rituals, and emphasize the simplicity of the religion.


Only the illiterate refer to them as 'Gods' they were divine and performed miracles just like Jesus and Mohammed did! But are not worshipped by Sikhs!
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
12-31-2006, 04:27 PM
1. Guru Nanak - 1469 to 1539

2. Guru Angad - 1539 to 1552

3. Guru Amar Das - 1552 to 1574

4. Guru Ram Das - 1574 to 1581

5. Guru Arjan - 1581 to 1606

6. Guru Hargobind - 1606 to 1644

7. Guru Har Rai 1630 - 1644 to 1661

8. Guru Har Krishan - 1661 to 1664

9. Guru Tegh Bahadur - 1665 to 1675

10. Guru Gobind Singh - 1675 to 1708
Reply

SilentObserver
12-31-2006, 08:21 PM
Ah, the dates clear things up a little. But, a question remains. What do sikhs believe happened to the soul that was in each gurus body when Guru Nanak Dev's soul was passed to them?
Reply

glo
12-31-2006, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
The Gurus in Sikhism are enlighteners. They are the messengers of the Timeless (God). They renew the eternal wisdom. They are universal Prophets who free our minds from bigotry and superstitions, dogmas and rituals, and emphasize the simplicity of the religion.


Only the illiterate refer to them as 'Gods' they were divine and performed miracles just like Jesus and Mohammed did! But are not worshipped by Sikhs!
Thank you for your explanation, AvarAllahNoor. :)

In my work I visit a Sikh - and old man in his 80s who cared for his profoundly mentally disabled son. His wife died at the beginning of this year, and he cares for his son tirelessly and without complaint. Luckily he has several other children nearby who help as much as they can.

He is one of the most humble and amazing people I have ever met.

Peace
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
12-31-2006, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Ah, the dates clear things up a little. But, a question remains. What do sikhs believe happened to the soul that was in each gurus body when Guru Nanak Dev's soul was passed to them?
The divine spirit was passed from one Guru to the next as "The light of a lamp which lights another does not abate."

Each Guru contributed something different to Sikhism. If you want i can post a list.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
12-31-2006, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Thank you for your explanation, AvarAllahNoor. :)

In my work I visit a Sikh - and old man in his 80s who cared for his profoundly mentally disabled son. His wife died at the beginning of this year, and he cares for his son tirelessly and without complaint. Luckily he has several other children nearby who help as much as they can.

He is one of the most humble and amazing people I have ever met.

Peace
Sikhs pray for humble mind and sound intellect. We are supposed to accept everything we are dealt without complaint. As it is the will of God what we receive or don't receive :)
Reply

Curious girl2
12-31-2006, 10:53 PM
Do Sikhs beleive Isa or any of the other prophets central to the Abrahamic religions?

Peace CG
Reply

AmarFaisal
12-31-2006, 11:11 PM
HI,
I have 2 questions
1. What are the miracles performed by Sikh Gurus?
2. Why do Skikh men don't cut their hair?

Thank you
Reply

Helena
12-31-2006, 11:30 PM
i have couple of questions.....

erm about the 5 k's, wot are they? and do they signify? how does it reflect your living?

do you believe in the day of judgment?

heaven or hell?

why do you wear the turban, wot does it represent?

and finally are women allowed to wear the turban? i have personally a girl wearing it in uni, is that appropriate in ur religion?

do you have any special holy books?

sorry......if am asking to many questions...am just really interested, getting carried away.....

do have more....will ask later inshAllah(God willing)
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by Curious girl2
Do Sikhs beleive Isa or any of the other prophets central to the Abrahamic religions?

Peace CG
Yes. All Prophets are greatly revered in Sikhism as they all were sent by God at various times of turmoil on this earth.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 01:41 AM
Originally Posted by AmarFaisal
HI,
I have 2 questions

1. What are the miracles performed by Sikh Gurus?

2. Why do Sikh men don't cut their hair?

Thank you
Hair is a gift from God, therefore why should anyone cut it? Sikhs live the way God made humans and never cut their hair. For Sikhs hair is the symbol of love for God and the respect for everything He has given us. The way God made us is the most beautiful of all. To Christians, even the Bible says, “God loves us and cares so much about us that even all the hairs of our head has been well counted” (Matt.10:30). ''God made man in his own image''. (Bible) so the hair is neccessary or he'd not have allowed it to grow.


From the scientific view, keeping hair is practical because hair has many functions. It traps an insulating layer of still air just outside the skin, and thereby reduces loss of heat by radiation, hair absorbs harmful radiations from the sun, hair follicles can make androgenic hormones and Axillary hair provides larger surface area for evaporation of sweat. Although Sikhs do not need scientific explanations to keep hair, it is important to note that scientific explanations do indeed exist.


Also, Muslims are forbidden to cut the beard, we just go that extra step further and preserve all hair (Kesh)
Reply

SilentObserver
01-01-2007, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor


Each Guru contributed something different to Sikhism. If you want i can post a list.
Please do.

Thanks.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by traveler
i have couple of questions.....

erm about the 5 k's, wot are they? and do they signify? how does it reflect your living?

do you believe in the day of judgment?

heaven or hell?

why do you wear the turban, wot does it represent?

and finally are women allowed to wear the turban? i have personally a girl wearing it in uni, is that appropriate in ur religion?

do you have any special holy books?

sorry......if am asking to many questions...am just really interested, getting carried away.....

do have more....will ask later inshAllah(God willing)
Hello Traveller.

I'll answer one question at a time, because it's only poor lickle me on my tod. :)

5 KS

Kesh: Hair is not just a symbol, it is the gift from God. Guru Nanak started the practice of keeping the hair unshorn. The keeping of hair in its natural state is regarded as living in harmony with the will of God, and is a symbol of the Khalsa brotherhood and the Sikh faith. Hair is an integral part of the human body created by God and Sikhism call for its preservation. Sikhs live the way God made humans and never cut their hair. Guru Gobind Singh Ji instructed Sikh to wear Turban in order to protect their hair. Turban has many purposes and one is to keep a Sikh focused in his beliefs.

Kanga: The comb is necessary to keep the hair clean and tidy. A Sikh must comb his hair twice a day and tie his turban neatly. The Gurus wore turbans and commanded the Sikhs to wear turbans for the protection of the hair, and promotion of social identity and cohesion. It has thus become an essential part of the Sikh dress.

Kara: The bracelet symbolizes restrain from evil deeds. It is worn on the right wrist and reminds the Sikh of the vows taken by him, that is, he is a servant of the God and should not do anything which may bring shame or disgrace. When he looks at the Kara, he is made to think twice before doing anything evil with his/her hands.

Kirpan: The sword is the emblem of courage and self-defense. It symbolizes dignity and self-reliance, the capacity and readiness to always defend the weak and the oppressed. It helps sustain one's martial spirit and the determination to sacrifice oneself in order to defend truth, oppression and Sikh moral values.The rule is never to do injustice and never let anyone do injustice.

Kachehra: Kachehra symbolizes to live a faithful life. It reminds the Sikh of the need for self-restrain over passions, lust and desires. Apart from its moral significance, it ensures briskness during action and freedom of movement at all times. In todays dark world, filled with lust, if ever a Sikh gets carried away in the moment of lust, the Kachehra refrains one from making wrong moves and reminds him/her of their duties. (Bit like the modesty dressing in Islam)
Reply

SATalha
01-01-2007, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor



Also, Muslims are forbidden to cut the beard, we just go that extra step further and preserve all hair (Kesh)
once a muslim keep his beard, they must maintain it....but they r allowed to trim it..etc....

btw....in sikhism...r u allowed to trim it now n then?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Please do.

Thanks.

Guru Nanak

Guru ji mastered Punjabi, Sanskrit and Persian at an early age and in childhood revolted against ritualism, caste, prejudices, hypocrisy and idolatry.

He regarded Hindus and Muslims as equals and referred to himself as neither Hindu nor Muslim but as a brother to all those who believed in God and truth.

He made four great journeys, travelling to all parts of India, and into Arabia and Persia; Tibet, China visiting Mecca and Baghdad. He spoke before Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Parsees, and Muslims. He spoke in the temples and mosques, and at various pilgrimage sites. Wherever he went, Guru Nanak spoke out against empty religious rituals, pilgrimages, the caste system, the sacrifice of widows, of depending on books to learn the true religion, and of all the other tenets that were to define his teachings. Never did he ask his listeners to follow him. He asked the Muslims to be true Muslims and the Hindus to be true Hindus.


Guru Angad

Guru Angad He was born in 1504 .Guru Angad invented and introduced the Gurmukhi (written form of Punjabi) script and made it known to all Sikhs.

The scripture of Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in Gurmukhi. This scripture is also the basis of Punjabi language. Guru Angad was a model of self-less service to his Sikhs and showed them the way to devotional prayers. It become the script of the masses very soon. He took great interest in the education of the children by opening many schools for their instruction and thus increased the number of literates.

For the youth he started the tradition of Mall Akhara, where physical as well as spiritual exercises were held. He collected the facts about Guru Nanak Sahib 's life from Bhai Bala ji and wrote the first biography of Guru Nanak Sahib. (Bhai Bale Wali Janamsakhi available now a days in not the same that Guru Angad Sahib had compiled.) He also wrote 63 Saloks (stanzas), these were included in Guru Granth Sahib. He popularized and expanded the institution of 'Guru ka Langar' started by Guru Nanak Sahib earlier .


Guru Amar Das

Guru Amar DasHe was born in 1479. Guru Amardas took up cudgels of spirituality to fight against caste restrictions, caste prejudices and the curse of untouchability.

He strengthened the tradition of the free kitchen, Guru Ka Langar (started by Guru Nanak), and made his disciples, whether rich or poor, whether high born or low born (according to the Hindu caste system), have their meals together sitting in one place.

He thus established social equality amongst the people. Guru Amardas introduced the Anand Karaj marriage ceremony for the Sikhs, replacing the Hindu form.

He also completely abolished amongst the Sikhs, the custom of Sati, in which a married woman was forced to burn herself and die with the funeral of her husband. The custom of Paradah, in which a woman covered her face with a veil, was also done away with.

Guru Ram Das

Guru Ram DasHe was born in 1534. Guru ji founded the city of Amritsar and started the construction of the famous Golden Temple at Amritsar, the holy city of the Sikhs.


The temple remains open on all sides and at all times to every one. This indicates that the Sikhs believe in One God who has no partiality for any particular place, direction or time.

The standard Sikh marriage ceremony known as the Anand Karaj is centered around the Lawan, a four stanza hymn composed by Guru Ram Das ji. The marriage couple circumscribe the Guru Granth Sahib ji as each stanza is read. The first round is the Divine consent for commencing the householders life through marriage. The second round states that the union of the couple has been brought about by God. In the third round the couple is described as the most fortunate as they have sung the praises of the Lord in the company of saints. In the fourth round the feeling of the couple that they have obtained their hearts desire and are being congratulated is described.


Guru Arjan Dev

Guru Arjan Dev He was born in 1563. He was the third son of Guru Ram Das ji. Guru Arjan was a saint and scholar of the highest quality and repute.

He compiled the Adi Granth, the scriptures of the Sikhs, and wrote the Sukhmani Sahib. To make it a universal teaching, Guru ji included in it hymns of Muslim saints as well those of low-caste pariah saints who were never permitted to enter various temples.

Guru Arjan Dev built Sri Darbar Sahib also known as Golden Temple in Amritsar.


Golden Temple foundations were laid down by a Muslim saint http://www.johnpalmerphotography.co....n%20Temple.jpg

Sri Darbar Sahib welcomes all without discrimination, which is symbolised by the four doors that are open in four directions. Guru ji became the first great martyr (Saheed) in Sikh history when Emperor Jahangir ordered execution.

Guru Har Gobind

Guru Hargobind He was born in 1595. He was the son of Guru Arjan Dev and was known as a "soldier saint," Guru Hargobind ji organised a small army, explaining that extreme non-violence and pacifism would only encourage evil and so the principles of Miri-Piri were established.

Guru ji taught that it was necessary to take up the sword in order to protect the weak and the oppressed. Guru ji was first among Gurus to take up arms to defend the faith. At that time it was only emperors who were allowed to sit on a raised platform, called a takhat or throne.

At the age of 13, Guru Hargobind erected Sri Akal Takhat Sahib, ten feet above the ground and adorned two swords, Miri and Piri, representing temporal and spiritual power.


Guru Har Rai

Guru Har Rai He was born in 1630, spent most of his life in devotional meditation and preaching the teachings of Guru Nanak.

Although, Guru Har Rai Ji was a man of peace, he never disbanded the armed Sikh Warriors (Saint Soldiers), who earlier were maintained by his grandfather, Guru Hargobind. He always boosted the military spirit of the Sikhs.

He also continued the grand task of nation building initiated by Guru Hargobind.

Guru Har Krishan

Guru Har Krishan He was born in 1656. Guru Har Krishan was the youngest of the Gurus. Installed as Guru at the age of five, Guru ji astonished the Brahmin Pundits with his knowledge and spiritual powers.

To the Sikhs he proved to be the symbols of service, purity and truth. The Guru gave his life while serving and healing the epidemic-stricken people in Delhi. The young Guru began to attend the sufferers irrespective of cast and creed. Particularly, the local Muslim population was much impressed with the purely humanitarian deeds of the Guru Sahib and nicknamed him Bala Pir (child prophet).

Even Aurangzeb did not try to disturb Guru Harkrishan Sahib.

Anyone who invokes Him with a pure heart has no difficulties whatsoever in their life.

Guru Tegh Bahadur

Guru Tegh BahadurHe was born in 1621 in Amritsar.

He established the town of Anandpur. The Guru laid down his life for the protection of Hindus, their Tilak (devotional mark painted on the forehead) and their sacred thread. He was a firm believer in the right of people to the freedom of worship.

It was for this cause that he faced martyrdom for the defence of the down-trodden Hindus. So pathetic was the torture of Guru Tegh Bahadur that his body had to be cremated clandestinely at Delhi while his head was taken four hundred kilometers away to Anandpur Sahib for cremation.


Guru Gobind Singh

Guru Gobind SinghHe was born in 1666 and became Guru after the martyrdom of his father Guru Tegh Bahadur.

He created the Khalsa (The Pure Ones) in 1699, changing the Sikhs into a saint-soldier order with special symbols and sacraments for protecting themselves. After the Guru had administered Amrit to his Five Beloved Ones, he stood up in supplication and with folded hands, begged them to baptize him in the same way as he had baptized them. He himself became their disciple (Wonderful is Guru Gobind Singh, himself the Master and himself the disciple). The Five Beloved Ones were astonished at such a proposal, and represented their own unworthiness, and the greatness of the Guru, whom they deemed God's representative upon earth.

He fought many wars against Aurangzeb's forces.

Thus the tree whose seed was planted by Guru Nanak, came to fruition when Guru Gobind Singh created the Khalsa, http://www.kpkhalsa.com/images/Khalsa1.jpg and on 3 October 1708, appointed Guru Granth Sahib as the Guru. He commanded: "Let all bow before my successor, Guru Granth. The Word is the Guru now."
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by SATalha
once a muslim keep his beard, they must maintain it....but they r allowed to trim it..etc....

btw....in sikhism...r u allowed to trim it now n then?
No! Once you've taken the Amrit it is forbidden! A bit about the Amrit below

Khande di Pahul (Amrit ceremony) was initiated in the times of Guru Gobind Singh when Khalsa was inaugurated at Sri Anandpur Sahib on the day of Baisakhi in 1699. Guru Gobind Singh asked a gathering of Sikhs, who was prepared to die for God? At first, the people hesitated, and then one man stepped forward, and he was taken to a tent. After some time, Guru Gobind Singh came out of the tent, with blood dripping from his sword. He asked the same question again. After the next four volunteers were in the tent, he reappeared with the four, who were now all dressed like him. These five men came to be known as Panj Pyares or the Beloved Five. These five were initiated into the Khalsa by receiving Amrit. These five were Bhai Daya Singh, Bhai Mukham Singh, Bhai Sahib Singh, Bhai Dharam Singh and Bhai Himmat Singh. Sikh men were then given the name "Singh" meaning "lion" and the women received the last name "Kaur" meaning "princess"

Khande Di Pahul not only embodies the primary objects of Sikh faith and the promises connected therewith, but also is itself a promise to lead a pure and pious life to unite with Almighty Lord. It is about inward cleansing of the conscience and seeking unity with Supreme Lord through His Grace. The word Pahul is a derivative from the substantive, Pahu- which is an agent which brightens, accelerates or sharpens the potentialities of a given object.

Khalsa is an Arabian word meaning pure (Khalas)
Reply

SilentObserver
01-01-2007, 02:36 AM
Do sikhs follow dietary rules like jews and muslims? No pork, must be halal, etc.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Do sikhs follow dietary rules like jews and muslims? No pork, must be halal, etc.
Well yes. A Sikh is not permitted to eat meat or drink alcohol (Bet you're thinking not another group who can't drink lol)
Reply

SilentObserver
01-01-2007, 03:07 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Well yes. A Sikh is not permitted to eat meat or drink alcohol (Bet you're thinking not another group who can't drink lol)
Any meat? Chicken? Fish?
Reply

netprince
01-01-2007, 03:15 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Well yes. A Sikh is not permitted to eat meat or drink alcohol (Bet you're thinking not another group who can't drink lol)
You learn something new everyday!!

I had heard that sikhs were allowed to drink alcohol but not to smoke tobacco.
They were allowed to eat meat, as long as it wasnt halal meat....

Think i will have to have words with my Sikh friend at work when i see him next week!!!
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by netprince
You learn something new everyday!!

I had heard that sikhs were allowed to drink alcohol but not to smoke tobacco.
They were allowed to eat meat, as long as it wasnt halal meat....

Think i will have to have words with my Sikh friend at work when i see him next week!!!
Does he have a haircut?

No meat is allowed although some argue it is. alcohol is FORBIDDEN!! He can't be practicing if he's drinking. No drugs either in case he says that's OK.

Give him a good thappar too
:rollseyes
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 05:18 AM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Any meat? Chicken? Fish?
Nope. no eggs either. But dairy products are allowed. (Vegetarians not vegans)
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Malaikah
01-01-2007, 09:38 AM
You say you sikhs believe in the all the prophets of God, including Muhammad pbuh. How can you reject his religion then?:?
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SilentObserver
01-01-2007, 09:44 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
You say you sikhs believe in the all the prophets of God, including Muhammad pbuh. How can you reject his religion then?:?
I hope your intention in asking is to get an answer and accept it, and not to debate.
I only say because the wording seems mildly confrontational.

My apologies if I am wrong.

If your intentions are not strictly in the spirit of learning, then please start a new thread for the debate that will no doubt be started.

Again, my apologies if I am wrong.
Reply

Malaikah
01-01-2007, 09:48 AM
I put the ':?' hoping it would lighten the post a little... guess it didn't work. :hiding: I am definitely not trying to have a debate.
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SilentObserver
01-01-2007, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
I put the ':?' hoping it would lighten the post a little... guess it didn't work. :hiding: I am definitely not trying to have a debate.
Thank you. I really am wanting to learn about different religions, islam, sikhism, christianity, etc. And this thread has been very informative. The threads that debates start in always get closed. :cry:
Reply

netprince
01-01-2007, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Does he have a haircut?

No meat is allowed although some argue it is. alcohol is FORBIDDEN!! He can't be practicing if he's drinking. No drugs either in case he says that's OK.

Give him a good thappar too
:rollseyes
He is a very good practicing sikh from what i can tell, he has the full beard and hair (wears turban). He himself doesnt drink or smoke, but i just thought thats personal choice.

Dont know about the Thapper tho', his a good lad, might just be an error in my understanding and his explaining.
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netprince
01-01-2007, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
You say you sikhs believe in the all the prophets of God, including Muhammad pbuh. How can you reject his religion then?:?
Personally, i dont find the question objectionable in any way. Seems like a perfectly reasonable question. The debating would/could begin if Avars answer isnt accepted as an answer, which i dont think will be the case. It is like my post earlier, i had a certain understanding about the sikh stance on alcohol and meat. I asked the question, Avar answered and i have accepted his answer. End of story.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
You say you sikhs believe in the all the prophets of God, including Muhammad pbuh. How can you reject his religion then?:?
lol that's like saying why do muslims reject previous other relgions (Judaism Christianity)

God send Prophets all over the world (mentioned in Quran) as and when he sees fit. Guru Nanak was sent according to Gods will.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I hope your intention in asking is to get an answer and accept it, and not to debate.
I only say because the wording seems mildly confrontational.

My apologies if I am wrong.

If your intentions are not strictly in the spirit of learning, then please start a new thread for the debate that will no doubt be started.

Again, my apologies if I am wrong.
It's ok, i like confrontation. I have nothing to hide. Sikhism is a great relgion and so much different to many others.

BTW - We have a 'Sikhsim' thread if anybody wants to use that to ask questions or debate!
Reply

glo
01-01-2007, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
lol that's like saying why do muslims reject previous other relgions (Judaism Christianity)

God send Prophets all over the world (mentioned in Quran) as and when he sees fit. Guru Nanak was sent according to Gods will.
Are gurus viewed as God's prophets then?
Muhammed was a prophet of God ... just not the last, as Islam claims?

Thanks
Reply

DaNgErOuS MiNdS
01-01-2007, 06:18 PM
What does the word 'JAT' mean? I know it is a caste but what doe sit represent? is is it a part of sikhism?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Are gurus viewed as God's prophets then?
Muhammed was a prophet of God ... just not the last, as Islam claims?

Thanks
Indeed they are.

Mohammed may have been the last one for Islam.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by traveler
i have couple of questions.....

erm about the 5 k's, wot are they? and do they signify? how does it reflect your living?

do you believe in the day of judgment?

heaven or hell?

why do you wear the turban, wot does it represent?

and finally are women allowed to wear the turban? i have personally a girl wearing it in uni, is that appropriate in ur religion?

do you have any special holy books?

sorry......if am asking to many questions...am just really interested, getting carried away.....

do have more....will ask later inshAllah(God willing)
1 - Day of Judgement 'Quyamat' No. We don't

2 - Heaven and Hell

The idea of hell and heaven is a mere hypothesis. The picture of hell as a place of varied and terrible tortures is symbolic:

"There is a stream of fire from which comes poisnous flames.
There is none else there except the self.
The waves of the ocean of fire are aflame.
And the sinners are burning in them." (A.G. p 1026)

It may be added that the result of a sinful life is its adverse effect on character from which ultimately comes suffering and torment. In short, to be in hell is to be out of the presence of God.

Similarly there is no actual place called heaven. Sikhism does not regard the winning of a place in heaven as a worthy object. The old concept of heaven is of a beautiful place providing all sorts of comforts and luxuries. The devotee is neither afraid of hell nor anxious to go to heaven. In a way, hell and heaven are conditions of mind. The virtuous man is happy and contented, as if he is living in heaven.

The concept of hell and heaven is just a rough illustration for clarifying the doctrine of Karma. Hell and heaven refer to evil or good stages of life repectively and they can be lived here and now in our earthly existence. According to Guru Arjan, "Whereever the praises of God are sung, there verily is heaven." Likewise, the society of the wicked is a hell. The condition of an average man is described thus: "Like birds that flock in the evening on a tree, flutter with pleasure and pain, scan the skies morning and evening, wandering everywhere, driven by hunger. So the soul of man wanders and suffers on earth." The worldly man eats, enjoys and sleeps, unmindful of the higher things of life. He is free, and perhaps, may choose wrongly.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by traveler

And finally are women allowed to wear the turban? i have personally a girl wearing it in uni, is that appropriate in ur religion?

Yes Sikh women are allowed to wear turbans, and are encouraged. Some may just wear a veil (chunni) over their heads. But the covering of the face is not essential!

Here is a picture of some Sikh Women.

http://www.mrsikhnet.com/uploaded_im...609-704101.jpg
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AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 09:00 PM
Answering traveler in regard to our holy book yes we do.


It is called the ''The Guru Granth Sahib''

The Guru Granth Sahib is truely unique among the world's great scriptures. It is considered the Supreme Spiritual Authority and Head of the Sikh religion, rather than any living person. It is also the only scripture of it's kind which not only contains the works of it's own religious prophets but also writings of prophets from other faiths.

The Guru Granth Sahib is held in great reverence by Sikhs and treated with the utmost respect. Sikhism rejects idol worship, so the Guru Granth Sahib is not worshipped as an idol, but rather emphasis is placed on respect of the book for the writings which appear within. Guru Granth Sahib is a collection of devotional hymns and poetry which proclaims God, lays stress on meditation on the True God, and lays down moral and ethical rules for development of the soul, spiritual salvation and unity with God.

A picture http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefme...9/T309744A.jpg

http://www.mrsikhnet.com/wp-content/...7/IMG_8054.JPG

It contains 1430 pages so obviously can't be carried around like you would do a Bible or Quran.
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SilentObserver
01-01-2007, 10:25 PM
I had heard that sikhs were not supposed to show their hair in public. But then a while back, on a hot day I was working alongside a sikh doing a physically demanding task. when the task was complete, he was hot and sweaty. He removed his turban to wash the sweat from his hair (I was amazed at the length of his hair!), then replaced his turban. I should have asked him, I guess.
Is what I was told untrue? Or was he not supposed to remove his turban in front of me?
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AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
I had heard that sikhs were not supposed to show their hair in public. But then a while back, on a hot day I was working alongside a sikh doing a physically demanding task. when the task was complete, he was hot and sweaty. He removed his turban to wash the sweat from his hair (I was amazed at the length of his hair!), then replaced his turban. I should have asked him, I guess.
Is what I was told untrue? Or was he not supposed to remove his turban in front of me?
Well if he's not allowed to show his hair, where does he hide his beard! :D

It's untrue. Sikhs should cover their heads always. Just like a muslim would wear a topi and a jew a yalmulka.

Prayers are NEVER said with the head uncovered.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by DaNgErOuS MiNdS
What does the word 'JAT' mean? I know it is a caste but what doe sit represent? is is it a part of sikhism?
Siksh do not believe in caste. Sadly because a majority live in india amongst the hindus. caste has not been eradicated.

A jatt is a farmer and is seen as the hightest of castes. It's not true of course.

The reason why Sikhs have the name 'Singh' is because this would show all men belong to one brotherhood. no surname to be associated with caste. 'Kaur' for women for the exact reason.

Singh = Lion
Kaur = Princess
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SilentObserver
01-01-2007, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Well if he's not allowed to show his hair, where does he hide his beard! :D

It's untrue. Sikhs should cover their heads always. Just like a muslim would wear a topi and a jew a yalmulka.

Prayers are NEVER said with the head uncovered.
So he should always keep his head covered, but he was permitted to wash his hair while I was there. Correct?
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AvarAllahNoor
01-01-2007, 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by SilentObserver
So he should always keep his head covered, but he was permitted to wash his hair while I was there. Correct?
Yup. It's not strict.:)
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AvarAllahNoor
01-02-2007, 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by AmarFaisal
HI,
I have 2 questions

1. What are the miracles performed by Sikh Gurus?
These are just a few of the miracles performed.

Guru Nanak in Mecca

There is a remarkable incident in connection with Nanak’s visit to Mecca. At Mecca, Nanak was found sleeping with his feet towards the Kaaba, before which the Mohammedans prostrated themselves when performing their prayer. Kazi Rukan-ud-din, who observed this, angrily remarked: "Infidel! How dare you dishonour God’s place by turning your feet towards Him?" He also kicked Nanak. Nanak silently replied, "I am tired. Turn my feet in any direction where the place of God is not". Kazi Rukan-ud-din took hold of Nanak’s feet angrily and moved them towards the opposite direction. The Kaaba also began to move. The Kazi was struck with wonder. He then recognised the glory of Guru Nanak and apologised and reakised he was a prophet of Allah, a true believer!

Guru Nanak and the Rock


Guru Nanak visited Hassan Abdal in the Attock district in the North Western Frontier in 1520 A.D. He sat under a Peepul tree at the foot of a hillock. On top of the hill, there lived a Mohammedan saint named Vali Quandhari. There was then a spring of water on top of the hill. Mardana used to get water from the spring. Guru Nanak became very popular in a short time. The Mohammedan saint became jealous. He forbade Mardana from taking water out of the spring. Mardana informed Guru Nanak of the conduct of the Mohammedan saint. Guru Nanak said to Mardana, "O Mardana! Do not be afraid. God will send water down to us soon".

The spring that was on the top of the hill dried up immediately. There arose a spring at the foot of the hill where Guru Nanak halted. The saint was very much enraged. He hurled a big rock from the top of the hill down to the spot where Nanak was sitting. Guru Nanak stopped the rock by his open hand. The impression of his hand on the rock exists even now. Then the saint came to the Guru, prostrated at his feet and asked for pardon. Guru Nanak smiled and pardoned the arrogant saint. There now stands a beautiful shrine by the side of the spring which is called: "Punja Sahib".

Guru Nanak Grazing Buffaloes

Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s father once sent Guru Nanak Dev Ji to graze buffaloes in the pastures. While grazing the buffaloes, Guru Nanak Dev ji sat under a tree and started meditating on God. Meanwhile, the herd of buffaloes went into the neighboring farmer’s field destroying his crop. The farmer saw his crops getting damaged. He became furious and lodged a complaint with Rai Bular, the officer-in-charge of that area. Rai Bular came to inspect the fields, and to his astonishment, he found no damage was done to the crops; rather, the crops were blossoming. The place, at which this miracle took place, is known as Kiara Sahib.

Guru Nanak aand the Snake

On another occasion, Guru Nanak Dev Ji was sent to graze the buffaloes in the pastures and he fell asleep under the shade of a tree. As the sun rose higher, the shadow moved away. The rays of the hot summer sun began to fall on his face. A big cobra came at that place and provided shadow with its hood over the face of the Divine Master. Rai Bular happened to be passing by that side with his attendants. When he saw this strange scene, he was convinced that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is not an ordinary man. God had sent him to this world. Rai Bular then touched the Guru's feet in great reverence and thus became his disciple.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-02-2007, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Are gurus viewed as God's prophets then?

Muhammed was a prophet of God ... just not the last, as Islam claims?

Thanks
Nanak Dev Ji received revelations directly from God because he was a prophet. Satguru (True Guru) Nanak Sahib Ji was called to God’s court and ordered to reveal the divine Naam to the world. It is written clearly in Sri Guru Granth Sahib:


“Waheguru gave me His Hukam (Order) to sing His Praises day and night. Waheguru , my Lord and Master summoned me, His minstrel, to the True Mansion of His Presence. (Waheguru ,) the Image of True Praise and Glory, gave me the Siropaao, robe of honour. The spiritual-life giving Name, Amrit Naam, the True Name, which gives eternal spiritual life, has become my food [sustenance].”
(Ang 150)


As Satguru, Guru Nanak spoke DIRECT revelations from God and did not use any middle-party. Guru Nanak makes this clear when he says:

"O Lalo! As the Lord’s word comes to me so I deliver it."
(Ang 722)


"I myself know not what to say; all I speak is what the Lord commands."
(Ang 763)
Reply

Mohsin
01-04-2007, 12:38 AM
Is it true halal meat is forbidden for you, and if it is, then why?
Reply

Mohsin
01-04-2007, 12:42 AM
Do you believe God will send more prophets?
Reply

Mohsin
01-04-2007, 12:42 AM
If you dont believe in heaven/hell, what do you think is the purpose of life?
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TABS19
01-04-2007, 03:55 PM
Hi

I am actually going to be brave and say that meat IS NOT forbidden in Sikhism. The Sikh Rehat Maryada states that halal meat should not be consumed as it is prepared in the muslim ritualistic way.

"None of the grain of corn is without life. In the first place, there is life in water, by which all are made green" (Var Asa M.1, p. 472).

Many Sikhs are divided about eating meat, but the truth is that you can either eat meat or not eat meat, the choice is yours, so long as it is not halal. (I am vegetarian but that is completely by choice)
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AvarAllahNoor
01-05-2007, 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by TABS19
Hi

I am actually going to be brave and say that meat IS NOT forbidden in Sikhism. The Sikh Rehat Maryada states that halal meat should not be consumed as it is prepared in the muslim ritualistic way.

"None of the grain of corn is without life. In the first place, there is life in water, by which all are made green" (Var Asa M.1, p. 472).

Many Sikhs are divided about eating meat, but the truth is that you can either eat meat or not eat meat, the choice is yours, so long as it is not halal. (I am vegetarian but that is completely by choice)
Sat Shri Akal (God Is Truth)

As i stated when i posted. Some say it can be consumed but a majority of Amritdhari Sikhs do NOT consume it.

The Tuk ''Maas Maas Kar Murakh Chagare'' springs to mind. So let us not debate.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-05-2007, 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by Mohsin
If you dont believe in heaven/hell, what do you think is the purpose of life?
The whole point is to merge with God. From whom we are seperated from. How can this be acheived? by worshipping him. and then when one has died, he/she shall return to him and this will be classed as heaven. Hell is seen as remaining in the circle of life and death and not merging with God!
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Malaikah
01-05-2007, 01:35 AM
I have only one question for you AvarAllaahNoor, can you please reply to my thread? :D

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...phet-hood.html
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Dawud_uk
02-06-2007, 02:53 PM
Assalaamu alaykum,

does anyone know of a good beginners guide to sikhism?

i am moving to leicester soon so feel i should learn about their beliefs if i am going to attempt to invite some of them to islam and i dont know of any dawah books aimed at them or discussing their beliefs.

Assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
02-06-2007, 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
lol you forget i am a fanatic...

if they kill me for talking to them about islam they only do me a favour by sending me straight to jannat to await judgement day knowing Allah is pleased with me for being martyred in his cause!

what i am thinking of is like 'the complete idiots guide to islam' by yahya emerick, something written by a sikh but in a way to try to help non sikhs understand their faith so i can use it as a starting point.

Abu Abdullah

Come to the Gudwara and Sikhs will be happy to show/teach you all you need to know brother!
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-06-2007, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Come to the Gudwara and Sikhs will be happy to show/teach you all you need to know brother!
we dont try to convert, only pass on the message, answer questions that come about and then it is between Allah and the individual.

there is none of this 'believe, believe, BELIEVE!' business you get from the christian missionaries.

more an attempt to discuss in a rational manner but how can i have such a discussion with any potential future sikh work colleagues if i only know the very basics of their faith?

Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
02-06-2007, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
we dont try to convert, only pass on the message, answer questions that come about and then it is between Allah and the individual.

there is none of this 'believe, believe, BELIEVE!' business you get from the christian missionaries.

more an attempt to discuss in a rational manner but how can i have such a discussion with any potential future sikh work colleagues if i only know the very basics of their faith?

Abu Abdullah
Ask him to explain how great Sikhi is and what benefits he reaps from it! :playing:
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Dawud_uk
02-06-2007, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Ask him to explain how great Sikhi is and what benefits he reaps from it! :playing:
i have been reading a little online, some of the stories on the bbc religious section mentions castes, i am right in thinking this is just cultural not from the sikh religion?

it is tolerated or actually spoken against to have castes in sikhism?

ps...
sikhism is an anglosized word, what do sikhs call sikhism?

Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
02-06-2007, 04:01 PM
and of-course asking someone to explain their faith is part of such discussions, i think this is important also.

Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
02-06-2007, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i have been reading a little online, some of the stories on the bbc religious section mentions castes, i am right in thinking this is just cultural not from the sikh religion?

it is tolerated or actually spoken against to have castes in sikhism?

ps...
sikhism is an anglosized word, what do sikhs call sikhism?

Abu Abdullah
No castes exist in Sikhism (The Khalsa Pure Ones) are the Sikhs!

Sikhi is our dharam! - Keep me informed of the many Sikh converions back in Leicester veer!
:D
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Dawud_uk
02-06-2007, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
No castes exist in Sikhism (The Khalsa Pure Ones) are the Sikhs!

Sikhi is our dharam! - Keep me informed of the many Sikh converions back in Leicester veer!
:D
yes i discovered this since about the castes,

it is like the muslims from punjab also, they also go into castes a lot even though such things are prohibited in islam also.

a friend even mentioned in pakistan there is a caste for prostitutes and that any woman born into that caste becomes one. truly sick and i am glad that isnt according to sikh teachings and it just peoples misunderstandings of it same as they misunderstand islam.

Abu Abdullah
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PCJS
02-06-2007, 04:16 PM
To learn about Sikhi, you could simply go to sikhnet.com
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AvarAllahNoor
02-06-2007, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
yes i discovered this since about the castes,

it is like the muslims from punjab also, they also go into castes a lot even though such things are prohibited in islam also.

a friend even mentioned in pakistan there is a caste for prostitutes and that any woman born into that caste becomes one. truly sick and i am glad that isnt according to sikh teachings and it just peoples misunderstandings of it same as they misunderstand islam.

Abu Abdullah
Indeed! - We as individuals can only learna and better ourselves by following what religion doctines we acknowledge. No face is ever the same. :smile:

Many muslims and Sikhs have strong bonds due to the respect shared by the Muslims saints and vice versa this is all I relate too. I don't care for stories of hatred. Manas Ji Jaat Ke Pechan Woh' Recognise the human race as one. This is the message of the Sikhs!
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One Man Army
02-06-2007, 08:13 PM
click on attatchment..... short document i made as a beginners guide to sikhi
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One Man Army
02-06-2007, 11:06 PM
is that sufficient bro? let me knw if u need n e thing else!
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Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 08:14 AM
thanks for all that,

kinda good of you considering i have stated my intention at the beginning!

also checking out the bbc site section on religions, been beefed up a bit since last i was on here about 4 years ago and a lot more info.

Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 08:24 AM
questions...

1. sikhs not supposed to drink or eat meat?

that is crazy, someone should tell that to the guys at all the sikh pubs in leicester and what is that about not eating meat?

i have never known a sikh not eat meat, i just thought they didnt eat meat santified by another religion such as kosher or halal meat? so is the vegi thing right?

obviously as a muslim agree with the higiene aspects and can respect that.

2. now sikhs say they are against ritual, yet contains 5 prayers it seems. isnt this a contradiction or are sikhs saying only mindless ritual without good intentions or understanding why it is done?

3. now your Guru Granth Sahib, you beleive it to be from God, do you beleive it therefore to be infallable?

Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 11:16 AM
to all the sikhs on here,

RE: the Guru Granth Sahib...

what language is it written in?
are english translations available?
do you believe it to be infallable word of God or something else?

Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
02-07-2007, 12:44 PM
Sat Shri Akal

It is written in Gurmukhi - And is the Word of God

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?S=y
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AvarAllahNoor
02-07-2007, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
thanks for all that,

kinda good of you considering i have stated my intention at the beginning!


Abu Abdullah

We have nothing to hide or fear. You seem to think you'll be converting left right and centre
:D
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Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Sat Shri Akal

It is written in Gurmukhi - And is the Word of God

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?S=y
so if it is the word of God then it should be without contradiction or flaw should it not as muslims claim the Quran to be and jews claim the torah to be and christians claim the bible to be?

Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
02-07-2007, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
questions...

1. sikhs not supposed to drink or eat meat?

that is crazy, someone should tell that to the guys at all the sikh pubs in leicester and what is that about not eating meat?

i have never known a sikh not eat meat, i just thought they didnt eat meat santified by another religion such as kosher or halal meat? so is the vegi thing right?

obviously as a muslim agree with the higiene aspects and can respect that.

2. now sikhs say they are against ritual, yet contains 5 prayers it seems. isnt this a contradiction or are sikhs saying only mindless ritual without good intentions or understanding why it is done?

3. now your Guru Granth Sahib, you beleive it to be from God, do you beleive it therefore to be infallable?

Abu Abdullah
All these questions have been aswered search Sikhism on the forum
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

We have nothing to hide or fear. You seem to think you'll be converting left right and centre
:D
not really.

since i become muslim by the will of Allah, he has only allowed 6 people to become muslim through me passing the message to them.

but it is also my duty to pass on the message and part of that is knowing who you are talking to and where they are coming from and part of that is learning about their faith and scripture.

Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
02-07-2007, 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
so if it is the word of God then it should be without contradiction or flaw should it not as muslims claim the Quran to be and jews claim the torah to be and christians claim the bible to be?

Abu Abdullah
Find me a flaw!
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Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Find me a flaw!
that is obviously my intention, if it is truly a book from God then like the Quran it will be flawless and without error.

Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
02-07-2007, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
that is obviously my intention, if it is truly a book from God then like the Quran it will be flawless and without error.

Abu Abdullah
Good luck because many have failed to find one! - Even the most cynical have said amongst the scriptures of other faiths Shri Guru Granth Sahib has been the most difficult to find a flaw within. I can find you the sources if required. NOBODY can fault the Shabad Guru (Word of God)

Also, remember taking a single line and mis-quoting it isn't finding a flaw, read the whole SGGS and then contemplate upon it. Because I too like many can take a line from the Quran and interpret to be something it's not.
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One Man Army
02-07-2007, 01:14 PM
well said avaar. www.searchgurbani. com is a good website which i usually use for translations of Guru Sahib. it also has an audio bar so can lisen to each ang that your on.

another is www.sikhitothemax. com
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One Man Army
02-07-2007, 01:18 PM
baptised practicing sikhs do not do what is stated in your post. punjabi culture has taken over. i know many muslims that drink, eat pork etc etc. that does not make it right, or apart of islam. the difference is, a sikh or a gursikh is only someone who is baptised and is a sikh. there is nothing ritualistic about 5 bania. i will get u information stating why this is done
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Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 01:34 PM
i do believe i have found some logical flaws in sikhi but i dont want to go into them yet until i have read some of the scripture and looked at the background of it so i dont make an unfair judgement without looking into it more deeply like i have with judaism and christianity.

Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
baptised practicing sikhs do not do what is stated in your post. punjabi culture has taken over. i know many muslims that drink, eat pork etc etc. that does not make it right, or apart of islam. the difference is, a sikh or a gursikh is only someone who is baptised and is a sikh. there is nothing ritualistic about 5 bania. i will get u information stating why this is done
the thing is, you go through certain meditations and contemplate upon them to become closer in understanding of God and your place in the universe?

a muslim could say the same thing about his prayers, a hindu the same, a jew the same, a christian the same.

other times collective acts of worship are gone through, this is all types of ritual.

what seems to be being spoken against is blind ritual without good intention or knowing why, this is surely what is wrong and as a position of agreement we could say this is wrong.

christians make the same allegations regarding muslims, it is just blind ritual but they dont look to the meanings behind this and the effects either and yet they also go through rituals of their own and deny the simularities of such denying they are ritual and calling it worship and meditation.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
baptised practicing sikhs do not do what is stated in your post. punjabi culture has taken over. i know many muslims that drink, eat pork etc etc. that does not make it right, or apart of islam. the difference is, a sikh or a gursikh is only someone who is baptised and is a sikh. there is nothing ritualistic about 5 bania. i will get u information stating why this is done
i agree about so-called muslims doing haram also yet claiming islam, for example in principle a muslim who doesnt pray is in principle a disbeliever, same as one who eats haram meat without dire necessity and knowing what it is.

so i would not judge sikhi on this, only saying i must not have come across a practicing sikh then even though one of the ones i have spoken to kept beard and turban and i have seen such individuals in bars in my own days ignorance before islam.

Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
02-07-2007, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i do believe i have found some logical flaws in sikhi but i dont want to go into them yet until i have read some of the scripture and looked at the background of it so i dont make an unfair judgement without looking into it more deeply like i have with judaism and christianity.

Abu Abdullah
OK, prove that the Shri Guru Granth is flawed, and I'll reject Sikhi, and embrace Islam. - You can't find anything.:D
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
OK, prove that the Shri Guru Granth is flawed, and I'll reject Sikhi, and embrace Islam. - You can't find anything.:D
that is my intention and i take you up on your challenge,

please bare with me as i dont go into this sort of thing lightly, it takes a long time to research different faiths and to make sure you are not doing so from a subjective basis.

try not to die in the mean time as i dont want you to die a disbeliever before Allah gives me the opportunity to show you the truth!

Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 02:58 PM
it is possible to buy a copy of this book translated into english from regular bookshops like i can buy a Quran or bible from waterstones?

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-07-2007, 03:30 PM
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&


Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
OK, prove that the Shri Guru Granth is flawed, and I'll reject Sikhi, and embrace Islam. - You can't find anything.:D

u must not embrace Islam just because if u lose a challenge.....if u don't really believe that God is one & Muhammed (p) is the last Prophet of God....does not matter what happens ......u must not become a Muslim.
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-07-2007, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&





u must not embrace Islam just because if u lose a challenge.....if u don't really believe that God is one & Muhammed (p) is the last Prophet of God....does not matter what happens ......u must not become a Muslim.
Assalaamu Alaykum,

I agree,

But if Allah allows me to prove his faith false, then at least the way will then be clear for him to look into Islam,

Usually when building a house you have to clear the ground a little first, maybe even not down a whole structure that is there first before you begin the building work on the same site.

But he certainly shouldn’t agree to accept Islam just if I prove his holy book to be false, but perhaps agree he should look into Islam and see if it is true in its message and whether its scripture can hold up to similar scrutiny.

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-07-2007, 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
it is possible to buy a copy of this book translated into english from regular bookshops like i can buy a Quran or bible from waterstones?

Abu Abdullah
NO! - You'll have to order it because it's very sacred and cannot be found in any bookshops. If the Libary has a copy, it will be placed on the topshelf and covered in a rumalla (cloth)

As to the comment about dying, it's in the hands of Allah when I should die. - But I'm a beleiver, hence why I choose Sikhi as my path. Any others who class me as kafir etc are ignorant to the omnipotence of Allah and his will.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-07-2007, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&


u must not embrace Islam just because if u lose a challenge.....if u don't really believe that God is one & Muhammed (p) is the last Prophet of God....does not matter what happens ......u must not become a Muslim.
Well if he can prove to me Sikhi is not the religion of God, then why would I not embrace Islam, and accept Mohammed as his messenger? Nobody to this day has achieved it, so I can say I'll convert. Because it's not going to happen.
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One Man Army
02-07-2007, 04:23 PM
heres info on some of the daily prayers of sikhi
http://www.sikhworld .co. uk/page16.html

short video:

http://www.mrsikhnet. com/index.php/2005/11/11/banis-and-time-of-day/

u may c now nothing ritualistic about it
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One Man Army
02-07-2007, 04:43 PM
agree, the sikh scriptures are not merely words that can be treated disrespectfully, i.e in a book store. there is no way something sacred as the word of God can be treated with respect in such places
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AvarAllahNoor
02-07-2007, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
agree, the sikh scriptures are not merely words that can be treated disrespectfully, i.e in a book store. there is no way something sacred as the word of God can be treated with respect in such places

That is why it's difficult to find a place other then the Gurdwara. I did hear of the public library keeping a copy on the shelf, but was removed when Sikhs complained of how it was placed amongst other books.
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snakelegs
02-07-2007, 07:39 PM
i think if you were to tell a sikh that if he became a muslim he would be forbidden to listen to music, he would head for the hills!
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One Man Army
02-07-2007, 09:54 PM
u knw what snakelegs, the problem is confusing punjabis, with sikhs. a Sikh is a khalsa. a Gursikh. these are the true sikhs, they do not listen to music or wat ever. they have a code of conduct which they follow, and refrain from any cardinal sins. but then u have punjabi sikhs as a culture focused people... who love the drinking, music, etc etc. Gursikhs are spiritual, honest and peaceful people, who stand up for any right cause once all peaceful means have failed. it is an easy confusion to make, and is why every one has a distored concept of what sikhs really are!
most Gursikhs would agree with the concept of not listening to music such as hip hop, or rock etc, as they would rather listen to kirtan for spirituallity purposes. they do not recieve and bliss or anand from listening to anything otherwise. it comes down to spirituallity which is a major factor of sikhism
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snakelegs
02-07-2007, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
u knw what snakelegs, the problem is confusing punjabis, with sikhs. a Sikh is a khalsa. a Gursikh. these are the true sikhs, they do not listen to music or wat ever. they have a code of conduct which they follow, and refrain from any cardinal sins. but then u have punjabi sikhs as a culture focused people... who love the drinking, music, etc etc. Gursikhs are spiritual, honest and peaceful people, who stand up for any right cause once all peaceful means have failed. it is an easy confusion to make, and is why every one has a distored concept of what sikhs really are!
most Gursikhs would agree with the concept of not listening to music such as hip hop, or rock etc, as they would rather listen to kirtan for spirituallity purposes. they do not recieve and bliss or anand from listening to anything otherwise. it comes down to spirituallity which is a major factor of sikhism
actually, i was thinking about gurbani - sikh devotional music (not bhangra!) and i can't imagine a sikh for going gurbani/kirtan. it's my understanding that music is a big part of worshipping god. when i'm not listening to qawwali, (which is almost all the time), i listen to gurbani. sikhnet has a great archive.
and how could a sikh forego the concept of gurbani, when even i like it and i'm not a sikh!
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One Man Army
02-08-2007, 08:46 AM
brilliant... good 2 c that some people can jus appreciate the best from every religion... p.s. if u ever need translations to the gurbani u listen too, feel free to pm me the shabad, and i will find the meanings 4 u!
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 09:45 AM
would an english translation be treated the same?

the Quran is not the Quran unless it is in its original form in arabic and so therefore we have no issues with english or other language copies being sold in bookshops or in libraries.

I have read some of your book already online, i admit it is good poetry and has some general good advice but i think i have seen some errors but want to give it a fair go first and look into it more deeply before i come back to you on this.

Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
heres info on some of the daily prayers of sikhi
http://www.sikhworld .co. uk/page16.html

short video:

http://www.mrsikhnet. com/index.php/2005/11/11/banis-and-time-of-day/

u may c now nothing ritualistic about it
this is interesting,

but can you direct me a little better to the video you want to watch in particular from that site?

i personally dont have a problem with ritual in islam as it comes from God and helps a muslim focus and devoting themselves to God in their thoughts and actions and learn to be submissive to God.

but if someone goes through certain meditations and does so at particular times then this is surely a ritual is it not? it seems to be a contradiction.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

One Man Army
02-08-2007, 11:54 AM
the video called banis and time of day... i dont class what r speakin about as a contradiction, i think its a desprate attempt to try and make up a flaw, dnt mke sence
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
the video called banis and time of day... i dont class what r speakin about as a contradiction, i think its a desprate attempt to try and make up a flaw, dnt mke sence
if i do particular activities at particular times of the day believing such to be pleasing to God, would this be a ritual or not?

here is the oxford definition of the word ritual. if sikhi rites of worship fall into one of these catagories then they are ritualistic, a ritual in effect whether you call it that or not.

1. an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.

2. a system or collection of religious or other rites.

3. observance of set forms in public worship.

4. a book of rites or ceremonies.

5. a book containing the offices to be used by priests in administering the sacraments and for visitation of the sick, burial of the dead, etc.

6. a prescribed or established rite, ceremony, proceeding, or service: the ritual of the dead.

7. prescribed, established, or ceremonial acts or features collectively, as in religious services.

8. any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner.

9. a prescribed code of behavior regulating social conduct, as that exemplified by the raising of one's hat or the shaking of hands in greeting.

10. Psychiatry. a specific act, as hand-washing, performed repetitively to a pathological degree, occurring as a common symptom of obsessive-compulsive neurosis.
a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet and all that. its like the muslims taking interest which is prohibited for us and their banks showing a statement stating 'profit.' it is still interest they have just changed the name.

now i am no expert but by concentrating on the more visually ritualistic behaviour of the hindus and muslims around him your Guru's seem to be speaking against blind ritual done without understanding of the need or cause of it or its results and reasons.

but what your religion seems to be teaching are indeed rituals, i dont have a problem with this, this is your deen, way of life and so you have set religious rituals you see as necessary to bring you closer to the creator same as we do.

but like i said, i am no expect but this would explain the contradiction as showing when the word ritual is used and saying sikhs are against rituals then what they mean is blind rituals because it can be shown they have rituals of their own they follow either daily in the worship, weekly in collective worship or in their festivals etc.

Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 12:41 PM
the video is the one of the sikh guy talking about daily prayers yes?

well i cant watch videos at work so will have to check it out later when at home.

please i hope i am not coming across as aggressive, i know i have a habit of just writing what i feel and that sometimes comes across as blunt but blunt is what i am but i dont mean it aggressively but some people see it that way.

it is just i see inherent contradictions and flaws in all man made idiologies and ways of life, and although you will disagree with me i see this with sikhi also because the guru's were just men, as well intentioned as they were and so make mistakes.

a geniune way of life and worship from God is without contradiction as is from God, anything from man will have flaws and contradictions but i will keep reading your book to give it a fair hearing (or reading) but this issue of rituals was an obvious contradiction to me straight away so hence why i mentioned it.

Abu Abdullah
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TABS19
02-08-2007, 01:04 PM
anything from man will have flaws and contradictions
Can one say the same about the Quaran and Prophet Mohammed?
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Well if he can prove to me Sikhi is not the religion of God, then why would I not embrace Islam, and accept Mohammed as his messenger? Nobody to this day has achieved it, so I can say I'll convert. Because it's not going to happen.
because i would not have proved to you that my religion is true, only that your's is false.

i would hope however if i can show you that your faith is false then you would look at islam as an alternative and if finding it true then embrace it as the true way as given by God to mankind.

Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by TABS19
Can one say the same about the Quaran and Prophet Mohammed?
absolutely,

the Quran is perfect but a certain concept or verse might only make sense when taken together with something else and this is why i am reading through the sikh book rather than just qouting the bits i have found already that seem flawed or contradictory.

i am giving it a fair reading rather than qouting selectively like the christians and other disbelievers do when they attack islam.

feel free to start you own thread if you feel i am wrong in this but dont hijack this one please and dont just cut and paste articles like most non muslims do when they try to convince me that islam is not true.

if however you are a genuine seeker of the truth then please read the Quran fully, take your time over it and read it through and if you find it to be a book from God then follow it sincerely, i.e become muslim.

Abu Abdullah
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DAWUD_adnan
02-08-2007, 01:23 PM
Islam and the Quran are not from man, thus they do not have flaws, and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) does not have ANY flaws in his action becuase he lived the Quran and Islam, of both of which are elements that were send down by Allah(the One and Only True God).

Peace.
Reply

TABS19
02-08-2007, 01:34 PM
I am not trying to hijack this thread, it was a question in relation to the previous one asked.

Sikh believe that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib was a direct revelation by God.

Muslims believe that the the Quran is the word of God, revealed to Mohammed, yet the Quran was compiled some time after Mohammed's death.

Mohammed was human as much as the Sikh Guru's were.
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
Islam and the Quran are not from man, thus they do not have flaws, and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) does not have ANY flaws in his action becuase he lived the Quran and Islam, of both of which are elements that were send down by Allah(the One and Only True God).

Peace.
exactly, though i would ask anyone else to start their own thread on this matter if they want it discussed in detail.

i am only subjecting the sikhi faith to the same scrutiny i subject every other belief system and finding it wanting just as i have all others except for islam, it is also the same scrutiny i applied to the Quran and islam prior to becomming muslim.

i admit though as a book of philosophy the Guru Ganth Sahib has some good in it, but some flaws also which i will insha'allah bring forward just as i have done so with the contradiction of denying ritual and then practicing it.

Abu Abdullah
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TABS19
02-08-2007, 01:41 PM
admit though as a book of philosophy the Guru Ganth Sahib has some good in it, but some flaws also which i will insha'allah bring forward just as i have done so with the contradiction of denying ritual and then practicing it.
This will be interesting and informative to know. Will you start a new thread in regards to this?
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by TABS19
This will be interesting and informative to know. Will you start a new thread in regards to this?
yes,

check this same section i have already started some other threads on sikhi.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Erundur
02-08-2007, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by TABS19
I am not trying to hijack this thread, it was a question in relation to the previous one asked.

Sikh believe that the Sri Guru Granth Sahib was a direct revelation by God.

Muslims believe that the the Quran is the word of God, revealed to Mohammed, yet the Quran was compiled some time after Mohammed's death.

Mohammed was human as much as the Sikh Guru's were.
:salamext:

O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.

:sl:
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by Erundur
:salamext:

O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.

:sl:
i believe their religion is false, but if we just qoute text at them they dont accept as genuine in the first place then it is unlikely they will accept it.

we have to show them our book is true and their false, our deen true and their's false or else how can we convince them?

Assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Erundur
02-08-2007, 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i believe their religion is false, but if we just qoute text at them they dont accept as genuine in the first place then it is unlikely they will accept it.

we have to show them our book is true and their false, our deen true and their's false or else how can we convince them?

Assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

:salamext:
Change the method, not the message.

I pasted that excerpt from the Prophets (saw) last sermon to show that we had the Qur'an during his lifetime.

:sl:
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Erundur
:salamext:
Change the method, not the message.

I pasted that excerpt from the Prophets (saw) last sermon to show that we had the Qur'an during his lifetime.

:sl:
i see what you mean,

thanks for the clarification.

Assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 02:36 PM
Assalaamu Alaykum,

i am shortly to be moving to Leicester which has a large sikh population so have begun to examine their faith so i can give them dawah insha'allah.

i believe i have found several obvious flaws that i could use to show their religion as being false and as long as my own faith is strong enough so i am not in danger do you think it would be allowable to visit the sikh temple to call them towards islam?

i understand the sikhs keep a communial kitchen that only serves vegetarian food, these communial meals are supposed to be open to all of every faith. is it allowable for me to attend this and eat with them for the purposes of calling them towards islam?

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
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PCJS
02-08-2007, 02:40 PM
Why are you asking others? Aren't you a Muslim to know the answer? Did you become Muslim not knowing everything about Islam? :-)
Reply

Erundur
02-08-2007, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Assalaamu Alaykum,

i am shortly to be moving to Leicester which has a large sikh population so have begun to examine their faith so i can give them dawah insha'allah.

i believe i have found several obvious flaws that i could use to show their religion as being false and as long as my own faith is strong enough so i am not in danger do you think it would be allowable to visit the sikh temple to call them towards islam?

i understand the sikhs keep a communial kitchen that only serves vegetarian food, these communial meals are supposed to be open to all of every faith. is it allowable for me to attend this and eat with them for the purposes of calling them towards islam?

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
:salamext:

you can eat the sikhs vegetarian meals as long as its not their meat (which you could only eat the people of the books).

I think you 'd get a negative reaction if you went to there temple to try to revert them, I mean the Prophet (saw) preached in front of the Ka'aba during his lifetime and the Mushrikeen thought the ka'aba as there holy ground. :hmm:

:sl:
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aamirsaab
02-08-2007, 02:45 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by PCJS
Why are you asking others? Aren't you a Muslim to know the answer? Did you become Muslim not knowing everything about Islam? :-)
If you're going to post, at least make it beneficial.

As for the query, under my knowledge, it should be ok. I haven't learnt of anything that specifically forbids one to visit a communial meeting to spread dawah, since dawa can be done in a manner of ways (doesn't neccesarily mean preaching or even converting others to Islam)
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
Why are you asking others? Aren't you a Muslim to know the answer? Did you become Muslim not knowing everything about Islam? :-)
lol,

if i had studied everything about islam before i became muslim i would most likely still be studying now and still not be muslim.

it is not necessary to know everything about islam to become muslim, only accept the basics and you can learn the individual rules later.

from a sikh point of view what do you think?
would this be accepted at sikh temples you know of?

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Erundur
:salamext:

you can eat the sikhs vegetarian meals as long as its not their meat (which you could only eat the people of the books).

I think you 'd get a negative reaction if you went to there temple to try to revert them, I mean the Prophet (saw) preached in front of the Ka'aba during his lifetime and the Mushrikeen thought the ka'aba as there holy ground. :hmm:

:sl:
practicing sikhs dont eat meat, i have discovered that already. wierd because it is only on an islamic message board i have discovered that and never come across someone claiming this faith who didnt eat meat.

i agree the response might be negative, but if approached calmly and respectfully i am hopeful i might be successful and if i get a beating for it then i will be rewarded for that from Allah swt, and if they kill me even better as i would have died for Allah and in following the sunnah of Rasoolullah saws in preaching to the disbelievers.

Assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

seeker_of_ilm
02-08-2007, 02:50 PM
:sl:

Well, I'm not sure of their rules pertaining to people of other faiths visiting, but theres a massive Gurdwara on East Park Road, which seems pretty open, considering my friend (muslim) did his work experience there (in the creche section) and apparantly they were very friendly towards him. Suppose it depends if your Da'wah is done tactfully, or full on harsh (which might not go down well in a temple)

:w:

P.S. - Not sure of the Islamic take on it though sorry
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PCJS
02-08-2007, 02:53 PM
Let me ask you this? What should happen to a Christian who goes to a Mosque and tries to convert people?
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
Let me ask you this? What should happen to a Christian who goes to a Mosque and tries to convert people?
there is a christian, he is actually a deacon (like a junior manager in the church of england) who visits our local mosque.

he has fully learnt the prayers in arabic, prays in line with us, fasts with us, breaks his fast with us and has now started calling himself a christian AND a muslim and goes to palestine on peace missions.

so really it has worked the other way, he is coming to islam not us coming towards christianity.

But i get what you are trying to say,

Abu Abdullah
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PCJS
02-08-2007, 02:57 PM
Guru Granth Sahib is flawless. Any religious or personal aspect that goes Guru Granth Sahib is a flaw in itself.

Sikhs here on this site aren't spiritually wise enough to answer all of your questions about Guru Granth Sahib. So you should go to http://www.sikhnet.com and there are people who can give you better answers

This is a Muslim site and it only supports Islam. So, what it means we can't expect it to be fair to all.

First you should ask the moderators that we will be allowed to ask any question about Islam. Only then you should start questioning Sikhi.
Reply

PCJS
02-08-2007, 03:01 PM
You get what I am trying to say and yet you didn't answer my question? Are you trying to hide something?

You remember there was a Muslim in Afghanistan who converted and everyone was out there to get him until he got out of the country?
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
Guru Granth Sahib is flawless. Any religious or personal aspect that goes Guru Granth Sahib is a flaw in itself.

Sikhs here on this site aren't spiritually wise enough to answer all of your questions about Guru Granth Sahib. So you should go to http://www.sikhnet.com and there are people who can give you better answers

This is a Muslim site and it only supports Islam. So, what it means we can't expect it to be fair to all.

First you should ask the moderators that we will be allowed to ask any question about Islam. Only then you should start questioning Sikhi.
well it is a muslim site,

if i went to a sikh site i would expect i would be moderated simularly which is fine so i will continue to ask my questions of the sikhs same as i ask simular questions of christians and jews.

if you want an open debate on such matters the bbc messageboard is quite good for this but i left that one ages ago because it is too adverserial and full of those who hate for hatred sake and do not want to help each other but just attack.

Abu Abdullah
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PCJS
02-08-2007, 03:05 PM
That's what great about Sikhi. No, in Sikhi, a non-Sikh wouldn't be treated the same way a non-Muslim would be treated in Islam.
Reply

PCJS
02-08-2007, 03:09 PM
May I add, that's why Sikhi is the greatest :-)
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
May I add, that's why Sikhi is the greatest :-)
i will add that when i was a non muslim the muslims did treat me well, very well.

but sikhs i had one or two bad experiences with as well as hearing bad things about them,

but i have since found that practicing or baptised sikhs dont even consider these bad people as sikhs so i dont hold it against the sikhi faith that these individuals behaved this way same as i dont hold george bush against christianity.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 03:17 PM
i will have to go offline soon for perhaps as long as several months, i now understand not possible to get an english copy of the Guru Granth Sahib in paper.

is there a downloadable copy in english just like there are online versions?

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
You get what I am trying to say and yet you didn't answer my question? Are you trying to hide something?

You remember there was a Muslim in Afghanistan who converted and everyone was out there to get him until he got out of the country?
no i did answer your question,

i told you we allowed the christian preacher into our mosque and we spoke about his faith and our faith and looked for commonalities and differences to facilitate understanding and yes because we were trying to spread our respective faiths.

in the end he now calls himself a christian and a muslim and has learnt our prayers and it is my hope he will become muslim fully and reject trinity which he still believes in.

as you know though, if someone converts from islam to another faith then the punishment is death if they are public about it or it comes to the attention of the authorities but it is not for regular people to carry out the punishment and we cannot carry it out here in the uk as we have to live by the laws of the land here.

but every single revert from sikhi i have met or heard of has had terrible problems with the sikh community giving death threats and such like.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

PCJS
02-08-2007, 03:23 PM
Well nobody can properly translate Guru Granth Sahib in English. Even to properly understand Guru Granth Sahib, you have to have to certain level of spiritual wisdom. I myself have found some mistakes in English translation. So you wouldn't find anything that is exact translation.
Reply

PCJS
02-08-2007, 03:36 PM
The question was: would you allow a Chrisitian to try converting people in a mosque?

Remember during Tsunami, there were some Chrisitians suspected of trying to convert people and Muslims were really upset about it? Do you think it's right for you to believe that it's OK for you to go other religious places trying to convert and yet it isn't OK for others to come to your religious place trying to convert?

So what are you saying? It's OK for someone to convert to Islam and go public and yet it isn't OK for someone to convert from Islam and go public? In other words, you could never be fair...
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
Well nobody can properly translate Guru Granth Sahib in English. Even to properly understand Guru Granth Sahib, you have to have to certain level of spiritual wisdom. I myself have found some mistakes in English translation. So you wouldn't find anything that is exact translation.
i agree,

the Quran translations often have to be updated when mistakes are found and the full exact meaning can never be conveyed but the general concepts usually can.

if i found flaws in the logic, or contradictions i accept some of these could be down to a bad translation but not all. but i am not unfair, i would of-course give sikhs equal opportunity to respond to these remarks and if they think it is down to mistranslation then they can try to correct me and if i agree then fine i will withdraw that comment.

i am not an unfair person.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

chacha_jalebi
02-08-2007, 03:37 PM
the food is called langaar and yesh you can eat it as long as they dont no rituals or anythin with it :D

and yesh doin dawaah is a good thin, but you shouldnt like be committed to tryin to show them the light :p like give them dawaah if they accept then woo hoo if they dont then remem, Allah (swt) guides whom he wants and misguides whom he wants :D
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PCJS
02-08-2007, 03:43 PM
There is something called bhog lavaai to the langar, which is kind of religious ritual. I am pretty sure you, as a Muslim, don't wanna eat langar after bhog lavaai.
Reply

chacha_jalebi
02-08-2007, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
There is something called bhog lavaai to the langar, which is kind of religious ritual. I am pretty sure you, as a Muslim, don't wanna eat langar after bhog lavaai.
whats bhog lavaai? langaar food isnt a religious ritual type food is it?

my mateys used to bring me food from there, but i wasnt sure about it, so i used to say to em instead of bringin me food jus bring me sum coke cans :D
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Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
Like I said, there is nobody here who is spiritually wise enough to answer all questions possibly coming from a non-Sikh. So, you should go http://www.sikhnet.com . Even though they might not be able to answer all questions, at least they can give you better answers than we can.

Hope to see you there :)
well if i get time i will take a look, already been on that site reading some of the info.

will also if i get the chance go to the sikh temple in leicester near my father in laws house.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-08-2007, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Assalaamu Alaykum,

i am shortly to be moving to Leicester which has a large sikh population so have begun to examine their faith so i can give them dawah insha'allah.

i believe i have found several obvious flaws that i could use to show their religion as being false and as long as my own faith is strong enough so i am not in danger do you think it would be allowable to visit the sikh temple to call them towards islam?

i understand the sikhs keep a communial kitchen that only serves vegetarian food, these communial meals are supposed to be open to all of every faith. is it allowable for me to attend this and eat with them for the purposes of calling them towards islam?

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&&

Salaam/peace;

well bro , i suggest don't hurry. At first go , make friendship with those who want to know about other faith , then invite them to the local mosque & discuss. U may also invite them to join here.

If they don't mix blood , alcohol i.e any such haram ( forbidden items ) , then veg foods should be ok to eat.

may Allah make ur dawah work easy & successful , Ameen. Let us know about ur progress. :okay:

Reply

Dawud_uk
02-08-2007, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&&

Salaam/peace;

well bro , i suggest don't hurry. At first go , make friendship with those who want to know about other faith , then invite them to the local mosque & discuss. U may also invite them to join here.

If they don't mix blood , alcohol i.e any such haram ( forbidden items ) , then veg foods should be ok to eat.

may Allah make ur dawah work easy & successful , Ameen. Let us know about ur progress. :okay:
i am checking it out and they dont seem to carry out any religious rites (OR RITUALS!) over their food whilst preparing it for the communal meals as the whole idea is to invite everyone of whatever religion in so should be ok to eat insha'allah if i went there.

Abu Abdullah
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- Qatada -
02-08-2007, 05:02 PM
Hey PCJS.


I think the reason why muslims were annoyed with the christian missionaries was because they were actually bribing/blackmailing people and only giving the provisions if they became christian. That's not the case with someone trying to invite someone else to their religion by showing them irrefutable facts. :)



Peace.
Reply

PCJS
02-08-2007, 05:30 PM
Fi_Sabilillah

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
as you know though, if someone converts from islam to another faith then the punishment is death if they are public about it or it comes to the attention of the authorities but it is not for regular people to carry out the punishment and we cannot carry it out here in the uk as we have to live by the laws of the land here.

Abu Abdullah
Can you please confirm if this is true?

If so, can you tell how on this earth you, as a Muslim, could ever be fair to all when punishment for a person for converting from Islam and going public is death? How could you have freedom of religion in Islam?
Reply

aamirsaab
02-08-2007, 05:35 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by PCJS
The question was: would you allow a Chrisitian to try converting people in a mosque?
Dawah and converting people to Islam are two different things.

Though, to answer your question, christians or any other members of other religious faiths are welcome to enter the masjid and do their equivalent of dawah.

Very few people would enter a mosque/temple/church to actually convert someone to another faith seeing as they'd probably get laughed at.

Through the means of intellectual dialogue, it is possible however, to convert someone, provided of course that person wants to, within themselves (this is the key point), convert.

As far as death penalties for apostates, an entire thread has been dedicated to it. Though, for those who are lazy and want to be spoon fed: the death penalty for apostacy (leaving Islam for another faith) is only done in times of war. For clarification on this, please read the thread dedicated to apostacy in Islam.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-08-2007, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
well if i get time i will take a look, already been on that site reading some of the info.

will also if i get the chance go to the sikh temple in leicester near my father in laws house.

Abu Abdullah
May I ask you to refer to the Sikh place of worship as Gurdwara brother? It's not a temple. Thankyou!
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-08-2007, 05:56 PM
Ok I dont wana hijack either, but to Tabs. The Qur'an was written down in order "during" the time of the Prophet(saw) and "put together" later on.

:sl:
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AvarAllahNoor
02-08-2007, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
bring forward just as i have done so with the contradiction of denying ritual and then practicing it.

Abu Abdullah
Sikhi rejects blind rituals. Show me where it states that praying (ritual) is forbidden n Sikhi?
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AvarAllahNoor
02-08-2007, 06:37 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i believe their religion is false, but if we just qoute text at them they dont accept as genuine in the first place then it is unlikely they will accept it.

we have to show them our book is true and their false, our deen true and their's false or else how can we convince them?

Assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
How is Sikhi false? When our scriptures are the only exististing scriptures which have been written by a Prophet himself?

Mohammed DID NOT write the Quran, his accomplices did, hence being Prone to human errors. This can't be denied, or Allah would have made these other people prophets too.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-08-2007, 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by Erundur
:salamext:

O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, the SUNNAH and if you follow these you will never go astray.

:sl:
Why did Allah not tell him to compile it while he was alive, if it was Allah's word?
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-08-2007, 10:05 PM
The Qur'an was written down in order "during" the time of the Prophet(saw) and "put together" as a book later on.
:sl:
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One Man Army
02-08-2007, 10:53 PM
as far as i know muhammad sahib couldnt remember the revalation after he had it.. it was down to his companions to write it.. well this is what my muslim r.s teacher told me
Reply

Malaikah
02-09-2007, 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
as far as i know muhammad sahib couldnt remember the revalation after he had it.. it was down to his companions to write it.. well this is what my muslim r.s teacher told me
What?? That isn't true!

In fact, Muhammad used to be worried that he might not be able to remember them after he heard the verses for the first time and he used to frantically try to repeat them as the angel was teaching him, until God told him later not to do that, and that God will ensure that he will not forget them.

That is mentioned in the Quran itself in these verses:

16. Move not your tongue concerning (the Qur'ân, O Muhammad SAW) to make haste therewith.
17. It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad SAW) the ability to recite it (the Qur'ân),
18. And when We have recited it to you [O Muhammad SAW through Jibrael (Gabriel)], then follow you its (the Qur'ân's) recital.
19. Then it is for Us (Allâh) to make it clear to you,

chapter 75
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Malaikah
02-09-2007, 12:24 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Mohammed DID NOT write the Quran, his accomplices did, hence being Prone to human errors. This can't be denied, or Allah would have made these other people prophets too.
Since when did writing something that you had committed to memory by hundreds of people and that was also written on bits and pieces here and there into one big collection make someone a prophet??

It really isn't as hard as you think.

Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Why did Allah not tell him to compile it while he was alive, if it was Allah's word?
Maybe because it is God's word, and it's authenticity doesn't depend on the will of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), but on the Will of God? God already said in the Quran that He will not allow the book to be changed, so what difference does it make if it was Muhammad (pbuh) or his most trusted companions who wrote it down?

AND BY THE WAY, the Quran WAS written down during the prophets time with his supervision, just not in ONE book.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-09-2007, 12:52 AM
But you as muslims say Mohammed is the last messenger, yet Allah did not trust him/instuct to him to complie something as great as the Quran himself? Why? It's not feasible! - He can't be Allahs most devoted and beloved Prophet if Allah didn't give him the instruction. So ranting about jpw people memorised it and so on, is worthless!
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-09-2007, 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
But you as muslims say Mohammed is the last messenger, yet Allah did not trust him/instuct to him to complie something as great as the Quran himself? Why? It's not feasible! - He can't be Allahs most devoted and beloved Prophet if Allah didn't give him the instruction. So ranting about jpw people memorised it and so on, is worthless!
How did Allah(swt) not trust or instruct him(saw)? The Prophet(saw) is the most Beloved to Allah(swt). Allah(swt) has already challenged mankind and promised to protect the Qur'an from any changes. How is memorizing the "entire" Qur'an worthless?
Is it because you don't want to accept it? If you don't want too, thats your decision, but you need not disrespect.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
02-09-2007, 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Mohammed DID NOT write the Quran, his accomplices did, hence being Prone to human errors. This can't be denied, or Allah would have made these other people prophets too.
The argument above is ridiculous.

You obviously have no familiarity with the preservation of the Qur'an. How can one expect any discrepancy, when there have existed several million memorizers of the Qur'an in every generation since the time of the Messenger until our own time? Should anyone alter a even a syllable of the original text of the Qur'an, these memorizers would at once expose the mistake. And the written texts are all in sync with what has been memorized, so the arguement of whether the Prophet should have written the Qur'an is baseless.

What is ironic is that you are doubting and debating the preservation of the Qur'an whereas we have a science that teaches us exactly how the Messenger himself recited the Qur'an.

Anyway this is an old arguement, countless times refuted, so before its brought up again, these links will benefit:

http://www.islamicboard.com/27163-post2.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/29549-post10.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/49481-post24.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/49781-post27.html
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Malaikah
02-09-2007, 08:29 AM
:sl:

Dawud, I can't help you much about the religious rulings, but I think you should be careful before you try to give dawah to them, make sure you understand their religion properly first, it wouldn't look so great if you show that you don't understand sikhism.
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alidagreat
02-09-2007, 08:39 AM
Asalam Alaykum Brother,

Why do you feel the need to go to another religions place of worship and spread Islam to them there? How would you feel if Christians or Jews walked into a mosque and began preaching their religions to you? I know that I would not like it all and it would be completely disrespectful. Remember Surat Al Qafirun. And remember this is a religion that cannot be accepted by everyone. God will open the hearts of those who want to believe, but you cannot force Islam on anyone.

Salam
Reply

TABS19
02-09-2007, 09:27 AM
The Qur'an was written down in order "during" the time of the Prophet(saw) and "put together" as a book later on.
Firstly, was Prophet Mohammed not illiterate, so how could he verify what was being written down was exactly the way he verified it?

Secondly, in regards to your comment, that the Quran was written down in order, how comes it was not compiled in order then?
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Dawud_uk
02-09-2007, 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
May I ask you to refer to the Sikh place of worship as Gurdwara brother? It's not a temple. Thankyou!
i apologise, my intention was not to offend.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-09-2007, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
How did Allah(swt) not trust or instruct him(saw)? The Prophet(saw) is the most Beloved to Allah(swt). Allah(swt) has already challenged mankind and promised to protect the Qur'an from any changes. How is memorizing the "entire" Qur'an worthless?
Is it because you don't want to accept it? If you don't want too, thats your decision, but you need not disrespect.
Sister I have great respect for you, and your religion. (as you may know from the Sikhism threads.) and I know you understand panjabi too.

Time and time again, Sikhi is mocked by few people on here. Yes this is an Islamic forum, where non-muslims come to learn about Islam. But insulting our religion just to make yours look better, is not beneficial to anyone. (not saying you have, you seem to be very tolerant of Sikhi, from your previous posts)

A debate is one thing, but if you ask a question, and you don't like the answer mods delete the post. Like I say, Allah is the creator of u and me. You follow what you believe to be the Word of God and us Sikhs beleive what we are led to believe. - There is no conflict in our Sikh doctrine with any other religion. Yes it mentions the falshood practised by people who claim to be holy/religious. - Just remember Allah is the most powerful, and he may be called Khuda, Ram, Waheguru, Mola, Parmeshwar, Jehohvah or God! - IT IS THE ONE AND SAME!!

Like Snakelegs says, Sikhi is no about drawing in the crowds as so manyreligions do. It's about QUALITY. Worship the one GOD. Whao gave us all life. We are the same and equal regardless of colour, race, hair coulur or langauges we speak. ALLAH MADE US ALL!!

Aval Allah Noor Piaya Kudrat Ke Bande

Allah Created Everybody,
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AvarAllahNoor
02-09-2007, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Aman4islam
Sikhs not only believe in SGGS but in dasam granth as well written by their 10th guru, gobind singh. Most of the people who support that scripture are taksalis. Tell me isn't it true, many people believe dasam granth and guru granth sahib's bhog can take place at the same spot?even though many sikhs belive SGGS is higher than any other book around but still akhand paths of dasam granth are taking place, why is that?
False!!

SGGS are the words of God. The Dasam Granth is not regarded by ANYONE to nbe the Words of God, but of His Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Guru Gobind Sinng, stated these are the words, and they shall be praised and God shall ne worshipped by uttering from the SGGS! - Show me a person who refutes the SGGS is not the only holy book?

Muslims have people who disregard the Hadiths, and say the Quran Shareef is not complete THIS IS BY MUSLIMS THEMSELVES - Find me just one Sikh who says the SGGS is false, or only some of it should be recitited, yet ignore the rest? PLEASE DO, FIND ME ANYTHING!!
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One Man Army
02-09-2007, 01:16 PM
Sikhs not only believe in SGGS but in dasam granth as well written by their 10th guru, gobind singh. Most of the people who support that scripture are taksalis. Tell me isn't it true, many people believe dasam granth and guru granth sahib's bhog can take place at the same spot?even though many sikhs belive SGGS is higher than any other book around but still akhand paths of dasam granth are taking place, why is that?
Because even though Guru Gobind Singh ji gave the Guru gaddi to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, Dasam Granth still has the words of the tenth master. so it is our duty as Guru Sahibs sikhs to respect Guru Gobind Singh jis bani....

baanee guroo guroo hai baanee
The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani.

Therefore Dasam Granth must be treated with utmost respect from Gursikhs even though Guru Gobind Singh ji didnt command it. Its become a Gursikhs duty to do so.

I dont believe it bro, dont many missionaries allow meat even to amritdhari people and not all amritdharis are GURSIKHS, many like fake baba's running around, raping women and molesting them. So you cant say all Amritdharis are gursikhs. Also alot of Amritdharis eat meat but its a minority of all the Amritdharis, but why is it taking place? Doesn't Akhand kirtani jatha has three bania da nitnem where taksal has 5 bania and the akal takht maryada let states clearly a amritdhari sikh has a choice to eat meat or not.
When i refer to Gursikhs, i refer to khalsa. you will always have in any religion fake guys such as imams, priests, etc who will be corrupt. i remeber muslims friends in the past telling me of such and such dodgy imams. The 3 Bani nitnem was decided after the british invasion... where various meetings took place to resort panthic maryada. 3 banis where set as a bare basic.. but AKJ in india, and in UK all still read 5 bania. i know this as i have spent time with the jathedars of both countries.
now as far as the meat issue is concernd. panj piareh give rehat, they command no meat should be consumed. some people may translate texts to state sikhs shouldnt eat halaal meat, and many say its for meat in general.. however...

Tilang, Fifth Mehla, First House:
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
The Lord infused His Light into the dust, and created the world, the universe.
The sky, the earth, the trees, and the water - all are the Creation of the Lord. ||1||
O human being, whatever you can see with your eyes, shall perish.
The world eats dead carcasses, living by neglect and greed. ||Pause||
Like a goblin, or a beast, they kill and eat the forbidden carcasses of meat.
So control your urges, or else you will be seized by the Lord, and thrown into the tortures of hell. ||2||
Your benefactors, presents, companions, courts, lands and homes
- when Azraa-eel, the Messenger of Death seizes you, what good will these be to you then? ||3||
The Pure Lord God knows your condition.
O Nanak, recite your prayer to the holy people. ||4||1||

Kabeer, they oppress living beings and kill them, and call it proper.
When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? ||199||

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.
Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||


You do not know the exalted state of the Lord's Name; how will you ever cross over? ||1||
You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?
You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||
You are blind in your mind, and do not understand your own self; how can you make others understand, O brother?

Rehatnama:

Meat, opium, drugs and tobacco. Ganja, wearing hats, another's woman and alcohol. He who never even gazes at these evils. Recognise them as my true disciplined Singh.


If blood has stained your clothing you say your clothes have become impure. How can the thought of those who eat meat, drink blood and suck bones become pure?"


Akaal Takht Sahib sets panthic maryada. a core basis. now Rehat is given more stricter or less by different jatha bandis. but they all still have the same core.

People always will put different views and opinions and change thing to what they believe... the amount of fractions in islam would probably go over the amount in sikhi 10 fold atleast.

The fact is, akaal takht sahib is the core, and the whole sikh panth has the same core maryada!
Reply

PCJS
02-09-2007, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:


Dawah and converting people to Islam are two different things.

Though, to answer your question, christians or any other members of other religious faiths are welcome to enter the masjid and do their equivalent of dawah.

Very few people would enter a mosque/temple/church to actually convert someone to another faith seeing as they'd probably get laughed at.

Through the means of intellectual dialogue, it is possible however, to convert someone, provided of course that person wants to, within themselves (this is the key point), convert.

As far as death penalties for apostates, an entire thread has been dedicated to it. Though, for those who are lazy and want to be spoon fed: the death penalty for apostacy (leaving Islam for another faith) is only done in times of war. For clarification on this, please read the thread dedicated to apostacy in Islam.
As far as i know, there are two words, in Urdu/Hindi at least. One in Dawaa or Dawah and the other one is Duya. Duya is to pray, whereas Dawaa or Dawah is medicine.

I, as being a humanitarian, could never be convinced by someone whose faith has a law to kill someone if they convert to another religion and go public as it's inhumane. Even most people in today's civilized society agree that it's inhumane.
Reply

PCJS
02-09-2007, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by alidagreat
Asalam Alaykum Brother,

Why do you feel the need to go to another religions place of worship and spread Islam to them there? How would you feel if Christians or Jews walked into a mosque and began preaching their religions to you? I know that I would not like it all and it would be completely disrespectful. Remember Surat Al Qafirun. And remember this is a religion that cannot be accepted by everyone. God will open the hearts of those who want to believe, but you cannot force Islam on anyone.

Salam
He is trying to be today's Aurangzeb. if you read Sikh History, you will know how Aurangzeb forcefully converted Hindus to Islam.
Reply

- Qatada -
02-09-2007, 04:25 PM
Hi PCJS.


Did you know that the punishment for commiting treason against the US is death? The punishment of someone who leaves islaam is also death, because this person broke off their part of the treaty with God after accepting it. And this punishment can be applied in an islamic state only.

So anyway, what's more important - for a person to be killed just because they went against the place they live in? Or because they gave up their covenant with God?


Alot of people who were enemies of islaam would actually pretend to become muslim one day and leave the next day pretending that it's a bad way of life, and that they don't agree with it. Purposelly trying to put others off islaam too.


If it's inhumane for this ruling to be applied, then we can say that the 'superpower' of today has inhumane laws too. :)



Regards.
Reply

Woodrow
02-09-2007, 04:55 PM
One problem I find with trying to give Da'wah by refuting a flaw, is that if I was never a member and lived that religion as the adherents of it do, it is difficult for me to establish credability for the refutation.

Refutations of Sikhism would be effective and plausable if they come from a person who once was a Sikh and reverted. However, for a person who never was a Sikh in order to be effective with refutations they would need to know all aspects of Sikhism, to be certain they can they can show themselves as being fully knowledgable of Sikh beliefs and practices. One small error or misunderstanding can reduce the best refutation to nonsense.

Each of us has different abilities when it comes to giving Da'wah. we need to exam our selves and see what tools and gifts we were given and what is the best way to use them.

For myself the path I would choose would be to concentrate on why a person should be Muslim, not on why they should not be what they are.

What works for me may not work for you. What works for you may not work for me.

I admire your courage and desire to use this as a path for Da'wah. May you be fully knowledgable of your gifts and talents and use them in the most effective manner possible.
Reply

PCJS
02-09-2007, 05:00 PM
What's legal isn't necessarily moral. But you can't expect an immoral act from a religion.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Hi PCJS.

So anyway, what's more important - for a person to be killed just because they went against the place they live in? Or because they gave up their covenant with God?
You and I don't decide what God's order. Since everything that happens is in God's order, when someone converts from one religion to another, it's also God's order. We can't say whether or not someone made the right decision by converting unless we "prove" our direct two-way communication with God.

Religion is usually a bunch of beliefs put together, not necessarily facts. There is nothing for sure you can say based upon simple belief as in religion unlike science, a belief can't be proven.

There were religions before Islam and there were religions after Islam. So, you can't say that someone is leaving God by leaving Islam.
Reply

- Qatada -
02-09-2007, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
What's legal isn't necessarily moral. But you can't expect an immoral act from a religion.



You and I don't decide what God's order. Since everything that happens is in God's order, when someone converts from one religion to another, it's also God's order. We can't say whether or not someone made the right decision by converting unless we "prove" our direct two-way communication with God.

Religion is usually a bunch of beliefs put together, not necessarily facts. There is nothing for sure you can say based upon simple belief as religion unlike science, a belief can't proven.

There were religions before Islam and there were religions after Islam. So, you can't say that someone is leaving God by leaving Islam.


A person is misguided due to sinning, many times Allaah has mentioned that He has misguided a people due to what they did with their own hands. We are all born on fitrah [natural inclination to do good, believe in One God etc.] but our fitrah is altered by the society, people around us, and also our own actions.

Religion isn't just belief's put together, rather its facts and beliefs which is what makes a person gain true faith. So God gives us His signs, we reflect upon them and the conclusion is a stronger belief/faith so long as the person isn't stubborn and arrogant to open his/her eyes to what is coming to them.


Just to clarify, islaam [which literally means submission towards the Creator] was the religion revealed to Adam, and all the prophets who came after him. Including Nuh (Noah), Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be upon all the prophets. More than 124,000 prophets have come to mankind to call to the worship of God Almighty Alone, without associating no partners to Him. These messengers came with clear signs which no-one could replicate except a prophet, not even sorcerers.

All the prophets called to the worship of Allaah Alone, to worship Him sincerely, to establish the prayer, to pay the zakaah to the needy, to keep the ties of kinship, to treat the orphan well and to do good. This was the religion of all the prophets, to be dutiful to Allaah sincerely.


Those who did good to gain Allaah's Mercy and believed in His messengers - for them, Allaah will reward them with all that they desire in the hereafter and more. Those that turn away from Allaah, His messengers, and His signs will be punished severely for taking Allaah's message in jest, saying that its 'stories of old.'


We all will die, and it is our responsibility to accept the truth when it comes to us. Allaah will bring us back to life, the same way He brings the dead plants back to life by sending down rain. To Him we will return and be judged on all that we did.



And Allaah is the Source of Strength.



Peace. :)
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PCJS
02-09-2007, 05:27 PM
A simple question.

Did Jesus say that someone be killed if they left Christianity? Does Hinduism say that someone be killed if they didn't believe in Hinduism?

These religions existed before Islam. Since you believe Jesus was a prophet but God didn't tell him that someone be killed if they didn't believe in religion, then come he said that to Mohammad? Or is it simply a Muslim belief that it's OK to kill someone if they leave Islam?

Anyways, it's inhumane and in no way, I could have respect for someone someone who believes so.
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- Qatada -
02-09-2007, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
A simple question.

Did Jesus say that someone be killed if they left Christianity? Does Hinduism say that someone be killed if they didn't believe in Hinduism?

These religions existed before Islam. Since you believe Jesus was a prophet but God didn't tell him that someone be killed if they didn't believe in religion, then come he said that to Mohammad? Or is it simply a Muslim belief that it's OK to kill someone if they leave Islam?

Anyways, it's inhumane and in no way, I could have respect for someone someone who believes so.

I'm not really sure, what if they did but people altered the scripture? That's what we see alot today don't we? Where some people are alright with gay's being gays, even though in the christian sources themselves - the story of Prophet Lut [Lot] is mentioned, and he came to stop homosexuality because its immoral. So what's stopping me from believing that Jesus (peace be upon him) never asked people to do the same, and it got distorted?


What i'm trying to say is that because it seems inhumane to you, and the society around us - if the US which is the most 'modern', and 'protective over its people' - then why does that allow it? The times change and what may seem inhumane in one time will differ in another time, yet islaam is fixed so how can i give you an answer which has double standards in regard to the society we live in?


By the way, i never said that everyone is forced to follow islaam:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2:256]


But those who don't accept what Allaah has revealed to His prophets are liable to the punishment of Allaah in the hereafter.
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aamirsaab
02-09-2007, 05:47 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by PCJS
Or is it simply a Muslim belief that it's OK to kill someone if they leave Islam?

Anyways, it's inhumane and in no way, I could have respect for someone someone who believes so.
You misunderstand. The death penalty for apostacy only applies in times of war since this was a tactic used by certain enemies of Islam many moons ago (nowadays, we'd call them spies) i.e. they'd pretend to be muslim just to 'mingle with the muslims'.
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PCJS
02-09-2007, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I'm not really sure, what if they did but people altered the scripture? That's what we see alot today don't we? Where some people are alright with gay's being gays, even though in the christian sources themselves - the story of Prophet Lut [Lot] is mentioned, and he came to stop homosexuality because its immoral. So what's stopping me from believing that Jesus (peace be upon him) never asked people to do the same, and it got distorted?


What i'm trying to say is that because it seems inhumane to you, and the society around us - if the US which is the most 'modern', and 'protective over its people' - then why does that allow it? The times change and what may seem inhumane in one time will differ in another time, yet islaam is fixed so how can i give you an answer which has double standards in regard to the society we live in?


By the way, i never said that everyone is forced to follow islaam:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2:256]


But those who don't accept what Allaah has revealed to His prophets are liable to the punishment of Allaah in the hereafter.
If you don't believe in Bible, why do you believe anything Christians say at all? Then why do you believe anything about Jesus at all?

The society today is becoming civilized. This is something Christianity and Sikhi seem to have in common - civilization.

Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:


You misunderstand. The death penalty for apostacy only applies in times of war since this was a tactic used by certain enemies of Islam many moons ago (nowadays, we'd call them spies) i.e. they'd pretend to be muslim just to 'mingle with the muslims'.
So are you saying that Dawud_UK's statement was not correct when he said someone leaving Islam gets death as punishment?
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- Qatada -
02-09-2007, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
If you don't believe in Bible, why do you believe anything Christians say at all? Then why do you believe anything about Jesus at all?

The society today is becoming civilized. This is something Christianity and Sikhi seem to have in common - civilization.

We believe the Injeel (gospel) revealed to Jesus (peace be upon him) was from God. Jesus son of Maryam was sent to the children of Isra'eel to guide them back to the worship of God like Moses (peace be upon him) had done.

Due to the fact that this message was corrupted by the people, God sent down the final revelation to Muhammad (peace be upon him) and this message would confirm all that came before it. So our criterion is the Qur'an.



If the Bible is upto modern day civilization, then how come the west doesn't run by that law? How come when islaam actually ran according to the Qur'an and Prophetic way it was at its strongest? Doesn't it seem obvious that the other ways of life are what actually bring down society, how the people of other scriptures may alter it or take it out of context to suit their needs? Yet islaam is fixed, firm and we follow it according to how the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) understood it. 1400yrs ago wasn't too long ago in regard to rule etc. did you know that? The only real difference is in regard to technology etc. And this we can make innovations in.


So islaam really isn't old fashioned, rather as times change - the people may change. Which means they may say somethings really bad at one time, and say its really good another time. I.e. homosexuality which was looked down upon just a few decades ago in the west, yet today its promoted. You see the difference?

Islaam is fixed, it doesn't need to change because its a perfectly good way of keeping the good content, so that we can shun away evil.




Peace. :)
Reply

PCJS
02-09-2007, 07:45 PM
Once again you simply believe certain stuff about Chrisitianity but you don't know for sure. Believing is not same as knowing for sure.

In a civilized society, you are free to do what you believe in as long as your actions don't negatively affect others. But it doesn't mean doing something immoral is part of civilization. However, intruding into someone else's personal life would be considered wrong.

I might consider homosexuality and premarital sex to be wrong but I do not somehow punish a homosexual person or someone who sexually active as this his/her personal life unless s/he somehow crosses my boundary.

Civilization is not about promoting something we consider immoral. Instead, giving people freedom to choose as long as it doesn't affect others.

It's because of civilization that you have been able to practice Islam in non-Islamic countries.

Yes there is a drawback of civilization and that is that people with hidden agendas lure innocent people into their trap. Some of them even use even religion.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
02-09-2007, 07:59 PM
No society is civilized as of yet and not even close.
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- Qatada -
02-09-2007, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
Once again you simply believe certain stuff about Chrisitianity but you don't know for sure. Believing is not same as knowing for sure.

The message of Jesus was kinda obvious because all the previous messengers bought the same message of calling to the worship of God. This is what all prophets called against, i.e. claiming that God has children, or that He has associates etc.



In a civilized society, you are free to do what you believe in as long as your actions don't negatively affect others. But it doesn't mean doing something immoral is part of civilization. However, intruding into someone else's personal life would be considered wrong.

I might consider homosexuality and premarital sex to be wrong but I do not somehow punish a homosexual person or someone who sexually active as this his/her personal life unless s/he somehow crosses my boundary.

In civilized society, if you could do whatever you want then others may disagree with some aspects because it causes harm to the one who doesn't do anything.

For instance we've been seeing lately that teachers at school are teaching children that being homosexual is allowed. Now why does the school have a right to teach children that? What if the parent doesn't want this for their child? You might say that the kid should move schools, but isn't that showing how bad being promoted in society affects the ones who personally oppose it aswell? :)


In islaam we don't actually go spying on some guy or girl to see if their sinning. Rather we know that within the lifetime of the Messengers of Allaah, people did sin - but they did it within their own households or did it in secret. Yes they are sinning, and their keeping it between themselves and Allaah right? But if they sin publicly trying to promote that sin so others get affected, that can harm society can't it? People may say that because others are doing it, why shouldn't we do it aswell? This is when sins and corruption go rampant in society. And this is what islaam opposes, it isn't permissible in islaam to go upto a guy and sneak in his window to see if he's sinning or not, rather thats against islamic teachings. What is looked down upon is the fact that people do it in public which encourages others in society to do the same.



Civilization is not about promoting something we consider immoral. Instead, giving people freedom to choose as long as it doesn't affect others.

From the above examples we can say its true, it does harm the ones who stay quiet.


It's because of civilization that you have been able to practice Islam in non-Islamic countries.

Yeah, i'm happy with that, praise be to Allaah. :) In islamic states the non muslims have the right to follow their religion and they can even establish their own religious courts, yet we still don't have that in the 'civilized' society we live in today.



Yes there is a drawback of civilization and that is that people with hidden agendas lure innocent people into their trap. Some of them even use even religion.


In islaam we don't need to be sly, we should convey the message clearly like all the prophets did. We don't tell the person we'll pay you so much to become a muslim, but the person only accepts islaam because they realise its the truth. There is no compulsion in religion, but those who turn away from Allaah and His messenger arrogantly are liable to the punishment of Allaah in the hereafter. May Allaah protect us from that. ameen. :)




Peace.

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aamirsaab
02-09-2007, 10:06 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by PCJS
So are you saying that Dawud_UK's statement was not correct when he said someone leaving Islam gets death as punishment?
Yes and no. Look, there is an entire thread dedicated to it with full explanation here.

The mods have been lenient with this thread so far, but I doubt it will continue. Now let's get back on topic.

(for your other queries, please either make a new thread about it, or search for an existing one and carry it on there)
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snakelegs
02-09-2007, 11:01 PM
just a general question.
if you find something that you think is a "flaw" in another religion's holy book - how would you know whether it's really a flaw, an error in translation, or simply something that you don't understand?
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PCJS
02-09-2007, 11:51 PM
Fi_Sabilillah,

People have equal rights to live as they wish, as equal as you. In Public schools, usually there is parents consent needed to teach kids about religion and sexuality. But if you don't like what teacher teach in Public schools, all you really have to do is to send your kids in a school where they teach what you like. There is no justification for killing someone just because they went against what you believe.
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PCJS
02-09-2007, 11:54 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
just a general question.
if you find something that you think is a "flaw" in another religion's holy book - how would you know whether it's really a flaw, an error in translation, or simply something that you don't understand?
Nobody can say for sure. So, it simply makes sense not to have blind faith and believe what makese the most sense...
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Malaikah
02-10-2007, 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Muslims have people who disregard the Hadiths, and say the Quran Shareef is not complete THIS IS BY MUSLIMS THEMSELVES
Wrong. A person who considers the Quran to be incomplete is not a Muslim, no matter how much he insists he is.

Therefore no Muslim can ever say that the Quran in incomplete.

Also, only the ignorant people disregard hadiths, there is no person with strong Islamic knowledge and understanding of the hadith science who disregards hadith.

So your claim is baseless.:shade:
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- Qatada -
02-10-2007, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
Fi_Sabilillah,

People have equal rights to live as they wish, as equal as you. In Public schools, usually there is parents consent needed to teach kids about religion and sexuality. But if you don't like what teacher teach in Public schools, all you really have to do is to send your kids in a school where they teach what you like.

That's exactly what i'm trying to say, why should i have to send a child to another school if someone else is spoiling this for me? This person who's going against morals is affecting our lives. Should I have to change my life in order to go against morals? Or does the one who goes against morals have the right to affect my 'children'? Because that's what their doing, their forcing the children to believe what they believe.


How can we measure morals if the media decides what morals are? Within one generation things can change so much where 20yrs ago it's wrong and looked down upon? Shouldn't civilization be firm/fixed so something which was immoral 20yrs ago remains that way? Mankind is the same and being homosexual in one time is the same as in another time-frame.


There is no justification for killing someone just because they went against what you believe.
Then how come that's the punishment for treason? The person commits treason because they don't agree with the policy of the state.
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-10-2007, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Assalaamu Alaykum,

i am shortly to be moving to Leicester which has a large sikh population so have begun to examine their faith so i can give them dawah insha'allah.

i believe i have found several obvious flaws that i could use to show their religion as being false and as long as my own faith is strong enough so i am not in danger do you think it would be allowable to visit the sikh temple to call them towards islam?

i understand the sikhs keep a communial kitchen that only serves vegetarian food, these communial meals are supposed to be open to all of every faith. is it allowable for me to attend this and eat with them for the purposes of calling them towards islam?

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
first get more knowledge on islaam
second study comparatives of religion and be knowledgeable how to make
dawah
third never insult the religion of anyone
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zaki.aumeerudy
02-10-2007, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Assalaamu Alaykum,

i am shortly to be moving to Leicester which has a large sikh population so have begun to examine their faith so i can give them dawah insha'allah.

i believe i have found several obvious flaws that i could use to show their religion as being false and as long as my own faith is strong enough so i am not in danger do you think it would be allowable to visit the sikh temple to call them towards islam?

i understand the sikhs keep a communial kitchen that only serves vegetarian food, these communial meals are supposed to be open to all of every faith. is it allowable for me to attend this and eat with them for the purposes of calling them towards islam?

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
make dua to Allahu AZZA WA Jall to send the easiest one to u . pse do not visit their temple know your place well ,know the way the people are ,then do your dawah and always ask allah to guide u how to the job
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Grace Seeker
02-10-2007, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Hi PCJS.


Did you know that the punishment for commiting treason against the US is death? The punishment of someone who leaves islaam is also death, because this person broke off their part of the treaty with God after accepting it. And this punishment can be applied in an islamic state only.

So anyway, what's more important - for a person to be killed just because they went against the place they live in? Or because they gave up their covenant with God?


Alot of people who were enemies of islaam would actually pretend to become muslim one day and leave the next day pretending that it's a bad way of life, and that they don't agree with it. Purposelly trying to put others off islaam too.


If it's inhumane for this ruling to be applied, then we can say that the 'superpower' of today has inhumane laws too. :)



Regards.
My comment is off topic, but it seems that perhaps we are already off topic a little bit. As to the conclusion above:
"If it's inhumane for this ruling to be applied, then we can say that the 'superpower' of today has inhumane laws too." :)

I would say right on both counts. Both applications are indeed inhumane.
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PCJS
02-10-2007, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
That's exactly what i'm trying to say, why should i have to send a child to another school if someone else is spoiling this for me? This person who's going against morals is affecting our lives. Should I have to change my life in order to go against morals? Or does the one who goes against morals have the right to affect my 'children'? Because that's what their doing, their forcing the children to believe what they believe.
There is always going to be some interaction when you live among general public. When we immigrate to the West, we are well aware of the fact, there are lot of stuff in the West we don't want our future generations to learn. So we have a choice. We can either accept this fact and decide to immigrate to the West or we can simply stay in the country of our origin. You could also decide to immigrate to the West and send your kids to the private school or you could simply send your kids to the public schools and instruct the teachers not to teach your kids anything about religion and sexuality. But in no way, you have right to harm others just because you wanna move here.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
How can we measure morals if the media decides what morals are? Within one generation things can change so much where 20yrs ago it's wrong and looked down upon? Shouldn't civilization be firm/fixed so something which was immoral 20yrs ago remains that way? Mankind is the same and being homosexual in one time is the same as in another time-frame.
No, civilization never changed but we are simply realizing it with time. Being firm is not necessarily ethical. Homosexuality is someone's personal issue. People just weren't civilized enough in past to realize that they should respect people's personal issues.


Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Then how come that's the punishment for treason? The person commits treason because they don't agree with the policy of the state.
Like I have said before, what's legal isn't always moral but a religion is expected to be moral. Killing or harming someone for going against your beliefs is the most immoral act I can think of.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-10-2007, 06:05 PM
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Jo Ke Fateh (Pure Ones Belong To God, Victory To God)

Greetings once again brother Dawaud!

Yes the Langaar hall is open to all. It was the reason Guru Nanak Dev Ji established it. During the periods of tyranny, Guru Nanak was instructed by God to unite people as he desired. This instruction was given to previous Prophets but they failed.

Only vegetarian food is served because muslims cannot eat harram, and hindus can not eat beef. and jews don't eat pork either like yourselves. So go, please and enjoy the Langar (free kitched open to all, and i've seen many caucasians enjoying a hot meal at the Gurdwara too)

In the Golden Temple in Amritsar Akhbar the Great wanted to meet the Guru, he was told to do Pangat - Eat in the Free kitchen by sitting amongst the poor and rich. He did so, because he wanted to meet the Guru Sahib!

Now, you'll be welcomed with love. And try if you want to spread your message, but you'll fail. Those who are learned in Sikhi, will never reject Sikhi. - You do what you feel is right. I know the more you delve into the Guru Granth Sahibs teachings, the more you'll notice the verses gripping at your heartstrings, because there is nothing more powewrful than the Word of God, which is containeed in the Shri Guru Granth Sahib. - Also as I mentioned before, the Sikh place of worship is a GURDWARA, and not a temple.

Kind Regards. Gur Fateh (Gurus Victory)
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aamirsaab
02-10-2007, 06:11 PM
:sl:
Last time I'm going to say this PCJS. I've given you 2 posts worth of explanation and a link to a thread completely dedicated to the subject. Please feel free to use it and/or take the convo to that respective thread.

All other posts after this one that are relating to apostacy or any other off-topic stuff, will be deleted and warnings will be issued.
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Grace Seeker
02-10-2007, 09:15 PM
The question before us is what should Dawud_UK do with respect to eating in the temple with the Sikhs and trying to show them their religion as being false.

Well, as far as it is being allowable in Islam. It appears that this question has been answered very early in the discussion. Nothing wrong with going to the communial meal as long as what one eats is halal.

As to showing another group that their religion is "wrong", surely this is something that all religions who believe they have the truth, that what others have is in error, and the difference has eternal consequences would do. Doing so is actually an act of love.

But, of course the manner of doing so needs to be done in a loving way as well. Hence, I think that PCJS's initial question (not subsequent comments) have value.

Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Originally Posted by PCJS
Let me ask you this? What should happen to a Christian who goes to a Mosque and tries to convert people?
there is a christian, he is actually a deacon (like a junior manager in the church of england) who visits our local mosque.

he has fully learnt the prayers in arabic, prays in line with us, fasts with us, breaks his fast with us and has now started calling himself a christian AND a muslim and goes to palestine on peace missions.

so really it has worked the other way, he is coming to islam not us coming towards christianity.

But i get what you are trying to say,

Abu Abdullah

I am a Christian. Part of my family is Muslim. I have been invited with them to attend a banquent of the Sugar Festival following Ramadan. How do you think it would have been received if I had attended that event for the purpose of showing, as you said Dawud in your intial post, "the several obvious flaws that ... their religion [is] false?" Even though we are family, I think they might have rightfully thrown me out on my ear.

Of course I attended but made no such comments. What I did was go and try to learn and understand more. Dawud, you could do the same. That doesn't mean that if someone asks you about your faith that you shouldn't be prepared to give an answer for it. But, I think you may have a greater impact for your faith more out the relationships you build, than your expertise as an apologist for the cause. Does not Muhammad (pbuh) counsel using wisdom in cases like this. The belief that I can, in my own superiority of intellect and reason, convince anyone to change their faith simply by challenging them with the obvious errors of their own faith, seems to me to smack of a degree of arrogance that borders on the sin of pride.

Note the pattern of the Christian deacon you lifted up as an example. He took time to learn the prayers, to pray in line with you, to fast with you. He did not come to tell you what was wrong with Islam. He came to participate along side you and you received him warmly. Imagine if he had come the other way, what type of reception would he have gotten then? You would have been kind at first, but in the end you would not have tolerated his demeaning of Islam. Nor should you in your holy places. I think it is a good model for you as well.

Be confident. Be self-assured. But also be humble. Remember, Allah could in an instant change all people on earth to Muslims if he so desired. Yet, these Sikhs are Sikhs and not Muslims. You may be Allah's instrument in this place for bringing them to Islam, but let it be Allah's work through you and not you forcing it upon them.
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snakelegs
02-11-2007, 01:05 AM
i really don't think anyone wants to hear that their religion is false or flawed.
would a muslim feel any differently?
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PCJS
02-11-2007, 03:21 AM
Aman, something you would never understand...

A Sikh is supposed to use all peaceful means unless these peaceful means fail defending rightousness and that's what Guru Gobind Singh Ji said to Aurungzeb.

Gurus have written Shabads based upon situations. Sikhi isn't about following something blindly. You don't know what kind of situations guruji was referring to when he wrote the shabad you are using to say that Guru Nanak Dev encouraged eating meat.

My assumption is that he was talking about those people who don't eat meat because they think flesh makes them not so sacred. So, he is simply saying that you should not reject meat just because you feel it's not sacred. It doesn't mean that he was encouraging people to eat meat.
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Shadow
02-11-2007, 07:27 AM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
Assalaamu Alaykum,

i am shortly to be moving to Leicester which has a large sikh population so have begun to examine their faith so i can give them dawah insha'allah.
First of all, you have to notice if they are interested at all at learning and if they are openminded about religious discussion.
i believe i have found several obvious flaws that i could use to show their religion as being false
I dont suggest you attack their religion, they will turn defensive and might even be drawn away from Islam. I would be really offended if someone came to me and told me to convert because my religion has flaws and his/her religion does not.

do you think it would be allowable to visit the sikh temple to call them towards islam?
As someone posted earlier, would you convert to christianity if someone came to your local mosque and started preaching against your religion?


At the end, I beleive that people who are interested in learning about Islam will eventually learn about it.

One last note, this is a forum, we all give opinions, it is up to you to analzye them and act according to your own decisions.




Stop the Offtopic posting!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-11-2007, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Jo Ke Fateh (Pure Ones Belong To God, Victory To God)

Greetings once again brother Dawaud!

Yes the Langaar hall is open to all. It was the reason Guru Nanak Dev Ji established it. During the periods of tyranny, Guru Nanak was instructed by God to unite people as he desired. This instruction was given to previous Prophets but they failed.

Only vegetarian food is served because muslims cannot eat harram, and hindus can not eat beef. and jews don't eat pork either like yourselves. So go, please and enjoy the Langar (free kitched open to all, and i've seen many caucasians enjoying a hot meal at the Gurdwara too)

In the Golden Temple in Amritsar Akhbar the Great wanted to meet the Guru, he was told to do Pangat - Eat in the Free kitchen by sitting amongst the poor and rich. He did so, because he wanted to meet the Guru Sahib!

Now, you'll be welcomed with love. And try if you want to spread your message, but you'll fail. Those who are learned in Sikhi, will never reject Sikhi. - You do what you feel is right. I know the more you delve into the Guru Granth Sahibs teachings, the more you'll notice the verses gripping at your heartstrings, because there is nothing more powewrful than the Word of God, which is containeed in the Shri Guru Granth Sahib. - Also as I mentioned before, the Sikh place of worship is a GURDWARA, and not a temple.

Kind Regards. Gur Fateh (Gurus Victory)
sorry about the temple thing again, i wrote this thread before you told me off last time, be sure no new thread i start on sikhism or reply will use the word temple when referring to a Gurdwara.

now a lot of people have made a lot of statements regarding what i have said, including that i wish to forcibly convert people, lol where did i say that?

will be honest with you though, the more i read the Guru Ganth Sahib the more i find it full of contradictions and flaws but like i keep saying i am not going into those until i have read through it all.

the problem is i go offline for several months in only a few days, so i best get busy or put this project on a backburner until i return.

as for those who say i shouldnt go and discuss with them, didnt the prophet Muhammad saws go to the places of worship of others and tell them about islam and call them towards it?

i agree, that guidence belongs only to Allah but we have to duty to the tell people the message and that is all i will do. it is upto Allah whether they accept it.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-11-2007, 03:42 PM
Go dawaud, just as Guru Nanak Dev went into Mecca to preach Sikhi and many converted, you go to the Gurdwara and see how Sikhs will treat you with respect regardless of what your intentions are.

As for killing people, well only the foolish would resort to killing a person who rejects a religion.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-11-2007, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
..... Guru Nanak Dev went into Mecca to preach Sikhi and many converted, .
Salaam/peace;


---I read elsewhere that he visited Holy Kaaba. It seems impossible as only Muslims are allowed to enter the holy mosque. Can u describe the matter ,pl ? Thanks

Pl. dont' just say that Kaaba came to him ....i was told that in other forum....show some proof
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-11-2007, 06:35 PM
OK brother. You chose a religion you feel comfortable with. That's great. Your post have not been anti -sikh so I hope they will remain this way. Guru Nanak had two companions, one was Mardana one wsa Bala a hindu and muslim. They continued on their path and were tolerant of what Guru Shaib was saying. Let us remain like this. We stick to what we find peace with. You the Quran, me the Shri Guru Granth Sahib. All is in the Will of Allah 'Hukmai Ander Sab Koi!'
Reply

PCJS
02-11-2007, 06:56 PM
Aman,

We monas get that all the times from Amritdharis. But you have to know the real Sikhi rather than just feeling unwelcomed due to some people's attitude towards you. You have to understand what Gurus stood for and not what some of the individuals stand for today. Sikhi is what gurus stood for and not some of the fanatics stand for today.

Since you have accepted Islam, please tell us whether or not you agree with killing someone who converts from Islam and then goes public.

I hope you didn't convert, if this is true, just because you felt rejected by some of the Sikhs. Most of the Sikhs today are not true Sikhs. So, it wouldn't matter to me what they think.
Reply

snakelegs
02-11-2007, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Snakelegs Shieck Farid ji was a muslim just as Bhagat Kabeer ji was. He was raised by a muslim, And so was Bhagat Baini and some more which I can't recall the moment. - Bhagat means holy man. Not a hindu as aman said.[/B]
yes, this is what i thought. bulleh shah was another muslim whose writings are in the SGGS. i hadn't heard of bhagat baini before.
i think it's cool - and pretty unique - that sikhs have writings from people of other religions in their holy book.
Reply

PCJS
02-11-2007, 11:14 PM
Hello Snakelegs, ajust a little correction. No, Bulle Shah's writings are not included in Guru Granth Sahib :-), although I have heard he was close to Guru Gobind Singh Ji...
Reply

PCJS
02-11-2007, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by Tayyaba
^^Bro this isn't the thread for it. Stop going off topic everyone. If you want to ask him that, do so in a new thread or PM him.
Tayyaba,

I wanna see if Aman chose Islam, if true, after carefully looking at every aspect of Islam and not pre-maturely. He may have chosen Islam because he felt rejected by some Sikh fanatics.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-12-2007, 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;


---I read elsewhere that hhread. e visited Holy Kaaba. It seems impossible as only Muslims are allowed to enter the holy mosque. Can u describe the matter ,pl ? Thanks

Pl. dont' just say that Kaaba came to him ....i was told that in other forum....show some proof
[B]LOL Yes the Kaaba came up to him in indai.....:p

I think mean, the Kaaba rotated. It has been discussed before in the "Sikhism' thread.

OK here is how it goes.....Although wheather you believe it or not relevant.

Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji got Into Mecca!

For over twenty years from about 1497, Guru Nanak had been on his travels. He had visited all parts of India. He had been to the east as far as Assam and Burma. To the South he had gone as far as Sri Lanka (previously called Ceylon). To the north he had gone even to places outside India. Crossing the Himalayas, he had visited Tibet and China. He had travelled on foot. What a tireless traveller he was!


He had travelled so long and so far, but he was not yet satisfied. He now decided to go towards the west. His aim was to visit Muslim countries. He wanted to visit also, the Muslim mosques in those countries. He chose Mecca as the first such place to visit. Mecca is in Saudi Arabia. It contains the most sacred Muslim mosque called the "Kaaba" or the House of God. A visit to Mecca by a Muslim is called hajj. A Muslim visitor to Mecca is called a hajji. Guru Nanak decided to go on hajj.


He put on the blue dress, worn by hajjis. He took a fakir’s staff, or stick in his hand. The Guru carried a book of his sacred songs or hymns. Like the hajjis, he had with him a iota or jug. He also carried a mat like the hajjis. Dressed thus, he looked like a typical hajji. All along, he acted in every way as hajjis did. Bhai Mardana was with him. He, too, was dressed as a hajji.


Boarding a ship at Surat, he reached the Arabian coast. From there, he walked on foot. He reached Mecca in due course.By the time he arrived in Mecca, he was very tired. His feet were sore. He needed rest. So he lay down to rest himself. He knew quite well that no Muslim would lie with his feet towards the Kaaba. But he wanted to draw the attention of the hajjis, so that he could teach them his wisdom.


So, he lay down with his feet towards the Kaaba. All who saw him lying thus, began to shout and cry in anger. They gathered around him. They shouted at him. They threatened him. One of them was angrier than the others. His name was Jiwan. He kicked the Guru and said, ‘Who are you? Why do you lie with your feet towards the House of God?’


The Guru did not show any anger. In fact, he was never angry with anybody. He smiled at Jiwan. In a calm, sweet voice he said to him, ‘Brother, don’t be angry. I am very tired. I need rest. I respect the House of God as much as any one. Please turn my feet in a direction in which God or the House of God is not.’


Jiwan took hold of the Guru’s feet. He dragged them in the opposite direction. Then he lifted his eyes. He saw the Kaaba standing in the direction of the Guru’s feet. He turned the Guru’s feet in another direction. The Kaaba was seen standing in that direction. Jiwan dragged the Guru’s feet to this side and that. He dragged them round and round. The Kaaba was seen to be going round and round. It was always, in the direction of the Guru’s feet. His feet were always towards the Kaaba.


Jiwan and the other hajjis were all filled with wonder. Jiwan let go of the Guru’s feet. The Guru got up and said, ‘Don’t you see that God’s House is in every direction? I tell you He dwells in every place, in every heart. He is in your hearts. He is also in mine.’


In the morning, a number of learned hajjis gathered around the Guru. They held religious discussions with him. He satisfied every one of them. He explained to them his golden rules of life and religion. They listened to him with utmost attention. They agreed to live and act as advised by him. One of them said to the Guru, ‘Holy Sir, give me something which will always remind me of you.’ The Guru gave him his pair of sandals. They were respectfully kept in the Kaaba for some time. That Muslim fakir then returned to India. He brought the sandals with him. He kept them in his temple at Uch in Bahawalpur, now in Pakistan.

NOW Please understand Sikhs do not believe in images, but here is how Guru Ji dressed, which would lead you to beleive he looks liek a muslim so he didn't lie or decieve to get into Mecca at all.

These two pictures show by his turban he looks like a muslim and a holy man. Muslims and Hindus revvered him. Just because you don't believe, does not mean he was not a Prophet. - He's known as Hindu Ka Guru Musulman ka Pir - Nanak Lama by buddhists - No other Prophet from ANY other religion was revved by other faiths.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/images/thum...k_in_Mecca.jpg

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/bhrsngh/my...0dev%20jee.jpg

Bhai Gurdas is considered the first interpreter of Gurbani. His writings are considered key to understanding the Sikh holy scriptures.

Guru Nanak in Mecca Pauris: 32-34

Pauri 32.1 Baba phiri Makkey gia neel bastatr Dharey banwari.

Pauri 32.2 Aasa hathh Kitab Kachh kuja bang mussala dhari.

Pauri 32.4 Ja Baba suta raat nounn vali maharabey paiye pasari.

Pauri 32.5 Jivan maari latt di kehara suta kuffar kuffari.

Pauri 32.7 Tangon Pakkaur ghasitia phiria Makka kalla dikhari.

Pauri 32.8 Hoey hairan kareni Juhari.

Pauri 33.3 Puchhan Pholi kitab nounn Hindu vada ke Musalmanoi.

Pauri 33.4 Baba Aakhey hajian subh amlan bajhau dono roi.

Pauri 33.5 Hindu Musalmaan dui dargah andari lahani na dhoi.

Pauri 33.7 Karani bakhili aapi vichi Ram Rahim Kuthai Khaloi.

Pauri 33.8 Rahey Saitani dunia goi.

Pauri 34.2 Jithai jai jagat vichi babe bajhu na khali jai.

Pauri 34.3 Ghari ghari baba pujiai Hindu Musalman guai.

Pauri 34.7 Ugavanahu te athavano naukhand prithami sabh jhukai.

In these pauris Bhai Gurdas describes the visit of Baba Nanak to Mecca. Donning blue clothes, holding a stick in one hand, book under the arm pit and carrying his prayer mat and a lota (jug) Baba reaches Mecca and relates the well known anecdote about Guru Nanak keeping his feet towards the Mehrab at night. Mullah named Jiwan hits him with his leg saying that who is this Kafir keeping his feet towards the house of God and holding Nanak's legs pulls them to change their direction and sees the Mecca moving in the same direction.

They asked Baba Nanak to open and search in his book and tell them as to who is better, Hindu or Muslim. Baba replied to the Haj Pilgrims that without good deeds both would come to grief. Both Hindus and Muslims would not be accepted in the court of the Lord. In their verbal duals they denounce Raam and Rahim. The world is following the ways of the Satan. Baba won over everyone. Wherever you go in the world you would not find a place where Baba was not known. From East to the West, all nine divisions of the earth bowed to him (Nanak).
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
02-12-2007, 01:48 AM
:sl:

chill man, I am following islam so thats how it is.
I think Brother Aman has made it clear, so thereafter if any posts are made questioning his Islam, trying to change him, or trying to cause doubts in him, they will be deleted.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-12-2007, 03:44 PM
Salaam/peace;

AvarAllahNoor;653079]: LOL Yes the Kaaba came up to him in indai.....:p



From East to the West, all nine divisions of the earth bowed to him (Nanak).


---what ????? Is he God ? If not , why bow to him ? He taught his followers to worship him ?

I read that Sikhs pray like this , I seek refuse under the sword of Guru …….i forgot the name…. why don’t u ask refuse in God Almighty ?


He reached Mecca in due course….. he didn't lie or decieve to get into Mecca at all.
---before performing Hajj , he declared his Shahada ( became a Muslim ) ? If not , then if he only dressed like Muslim , then sorry to say but surely it’s a deception.


I don’t think , ur respected Guru Ji willingly cheated anybody . So , can it be possible that he embraced Islam ? :D



He saw the Kaaba standing in the direction of the Guru’s feet. He turned the Guru’s feet in another direction. The Kaaba was seen standing in that direction…… ….The Guru gave him his pair of sandals. They were respectfully kept in the Kaaba for some time

---any non-Sikh historian mentioned about moving /shifting of Kaaba & kept of Sandals inside the Kaaba ?



Muslims remove shoes/sandals before entering to any mosque & u r saying Muslims kept sandals of a Sikh Guru inside their holiest mosque ?



If really Kaaba shifted for a Sikh Guru & his sandals were considered as that holy to be kept in Kaaba , surely those became hot news …….. pl. mention other sources.





That Muslim fakir then returned to India. He brought the sandals with him. He kept them in his temple at Uch in Bahawalpur, now in Pakistan

---what temple u r talking about or is it a mosque
( Muslims prayers place ) ? Are u sure , Guru Ji’s sandals are kept inside the mosque ? Any photo available ? Not the picture drawn by an artist ,a real photograph ?



Just because you don't believe, does not mean he was not a Prophet. - He's known as Hindu Ka Guru Musulman ka Pir –



---pir is not a Prophet . Prophets were chosen by God Almighty.



There are hundreds of Muslim pirs ….they are not Prophets .
Muhammed (p) was the last Prophet & seal of the
Prophets (pbut ).



No other Prophet from ANY other religion was revved by other faiths.

--- revved means respected ? Well , Muslims respect all the Biblical Prophets ;such as Moses (p) , Jesus (p) & others . Most probably , it was u who said Sikhs also believe these 2 Prophets (pbut ) ?


They asked Baba Nanak to open and search in his book and tell them as to who is better, Hindu or Muslim.


----why asked a Sikh about Hindus ? Are they ( Hindus & Sikhs ) same ?


Hope , I did not hurt ur feelings.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-12-2007, 03:53 PM
Muslim woamn sorry I find it difficult to understand what you're saying. Your reply is all over the joint!
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-12-2007, 03:55 PM
Salaam/peace;

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
....I am a Christian. Part of my family is Muslim.

---that’s interesting :p


Note the pattern of the Christian deacon you lifted up as an example. He took time to learn the prayers, to pray in line with you
--- I did not understand it . Is it allowed for a Christian to declare ( falsely ) that he is a Muslim ?

Just to know how Muslim pray or fast , one does not need to do so . Anybody can come to mosque & watch how Muslims pray without giving them the wrong info that I m a Muslim.


If bro Dawud visits Sikhs holy place , he does not need them to give any false impression that he is interested to be a Sikh . Anyway , i m not expert .....it's just my opinion.
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-12-2007, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
Nobody can say for sure. So, it simply makes sense not to have blind faith and believe what makese the most sense...
i agree entirely,

appeals to reason though dont always work because people see following a book as reasonable. for example i believe the Quran and sunnah to be true so therefore use them as additional sources of evidence to base logical decisions upon.

i assume the sikhs see the Guru Granth Sahib as the same and hence why i am studying it.

So if i can show you flaws in the Guru Granth Sahib would you agree that using reason and sense that you religion is also flawed and untrue?

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-12-2007, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Sikhi rejects blind rituals. Show me where it states that praying (ritual) is forbidden n Sikhi?
that is what i thought,

i kept reading though that sikhs reject rituals but yet they are doing rituals and hence my confusion.

can you pm me any articles on the difference in feeling here between ritual and blind ritual? others have contradicted you that is all.

but i would say all would say they are against blind ritual without understanding the reasons for it etc. this isnt something particular to sikhi.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-12-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

There are at least 6/7 threads about Sikhism on this forum. Go and read up on it!

I'd lvoe to have a face to face debate.
i would prefer to say discussion, debate conjures up images of ahmed - v - swaggert etc and although i find them informative i do not think many christians would have gained benefit from seeing their preacher smashed.

so better a discussion where we discuss commonality and difference in a polite manner.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

PCJS
02-12-2007, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i agree entirely,

appeals to reason though dont always work because people see following a book as reasonable. for example i believe the Quran and sunnah to be true so therefore use them as additional sources of evidence to base logical decisions upon.

i assume the sikhs see the Guru Granth Sahib as the same and hence why i am studying it.

So if i can show you flaws in the Guru Granth Sahib would you agree that using reason and sense that you religion is also flawed and untrue?

Abu Abdullah
As I have said before, Guru Granth Sahib is perfect. Any personal or religious aspect that doesn't agree with Guru Granth Sahib is flawed in itself. Even if something from Guru Granth Sahib doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't mean it's flawed. All it means that you aren't capable of understanding where gurus and saint coming from.

There are reasons why you are Muslim and I consider myself a Sikh. Main reason is that there is difference in how our minds work. So what makes sense to you might not make sense to me. You may look at religion differently than I do. For you, religion could mean whatever the book says and for me, what logically and ethically makes sense.
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-12-2007, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
As I have said before, Guru Granth Sahib is perfect. Any personal or religious aspect that doesn't agree with Guru Granth Sahib is flawed in itself. Even if something from Guru Granth Sahib doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't mean it's flawed. All it means that you aren't capable of understanding where gurus and saint coming from.

There are reasons why you are Muslim and I consider myself a Sikh. Main reason is that there is difference in how our minds work. So what makes sense to you might not make sense to me. You may look at religion differently than I do. For you, religion could mean whatever the book says and for me, what logically and ethically makes sense.

hang on a minute, that is a circular argument...

the Guru Granth Sahib is perfect to you, therefore whatever is in it is true and anything in contradiction is false, so if i show you a contradiction it is because i dont understand?

your own position seems to be sikhi teachings are true because they are in the Guru Granth Sahib, but just a few posts above you say we need to use reason - surely that applies to the Guru Granth Sahib also?

therefore if i can show you a flaws and contradictions it means it is false, you cannot deny that logical position.

i have subjected the Quran to the same process before i became muslim and i am only applying the same criterion to the other books to look at them logically and find the flaws if any.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

PCJS
02-12-2007, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
therefore if i can show you a flaws and contradictions it means it is false, you cannot deny that logical position.
If something appears to be a flaw or contradiction to you, all it means is that you don't understand and you are not able to comprehend the logic... That's all. It doesn't mean it's flaw or contradiction.
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-12-2007, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;




---that’s interesting :p




--- I did not understand it . Is it allowed for a Christian to declare ( falsely ) that he is a Muslim ?

Just to know how Muslim pray or fast , one does not need to do so . Anybody can come to mosque & watch how Muslims pray without giving them the wrong info that I m a Muslim.


If bro Dawud visits Sikhs holy place , he does not need them to give any false impression that he is interested to be a Sikh . Anyway , i m not expert .....it's just my opinion.
True, you did not understand. The Anglican deacon that Dawud speaks of did NOT declare that he was Muslim. He merely came alongside others who were Muslim to enter into prayer. I have done this myself when attending Mosque with my daughter. The Imam and all of the other brothers and sisters knew that I was not Muslim. Indeed they knew that I am a Christian pastor, and nonetheless they invited me to join them in prayers, which I did. I assume that something similar happened with regard to this Anglican deacon that Dawud speaks of.

My point regarding the Anglican deacon is that Dawud seems to be very open to him. And also Dawud thinks, or at least hopes, that perhaps he would receive the same reception in visiting with the Sikhs. And indeed he might. But I was cautioning him with regard to the manner of approach that he chose.

Dawud, in his opening posts, suggests that he might go to show others how they were in error and have a false religion. That is not how he described the Anglican deacon coming to the mosque that he attends. Rather that man came respectful of Muslim faith. I am suggesting to Dawud, that while he may old the religion of the Sikhs to be in error and false, that if he wants to be well received he should still approach them in a resepctful way. I also suggested to him that if this Anglican deacon had entered the mosque in a manner similar to how he has suggested that he might go and visit the Sikhs, that the Anglican deacon may not have found the same cordial reception that he has.

To put it in colloquial speach, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-12-2007, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by PCJS
If something appears to be a flaw or contradiction to you, all it means is that you don't understand and you are not able to comprehend the logic... That's all. It doesn't mean it's flaw or contradiction.
this is what i mean, you are not using reason, that is blind acceptence of a concept of the Guru Granth Sahib to be true without questioning.

i also accept the Quran to be true absolutely as you trust your book but my reason meant i tested it to see if it was true before i became muslim as i couldnt accept christianity blindly so nor could i accept islam blindly and nor should you accept sikhi blindly.

if blind ritual is so dangerous in your faith surely blind faith without questioning is far worse?

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-12-2007, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
True, you did not understand. The Anglican deacon that Dawud speaks of did NOT declare that he was Muslim. He merely came alongside others who were Muslim to enter into prayer. I have done this myself when attending Mosque with my daughter. The Imam and all of the other brothers and sisters knew that I was not Muslim. Indeed they knew that I am a Christian pastor, and nonetheless they invited me to join them in prayers, which I did. I assume that something similar happened with regard to this Anglican deacon that Dawud speaks of.

My point regarding the Anglican deacon is that Dawud seems to be very open to him. And also Dawud thinks, or at least hopes, that perhaps he would receive the same reception in visiting with the Sikhs. And indeed he might. But I was cautioning him with regard to the manner of approach that he chose.

Dawud, in his opening posts, suggests that he might go to show others how they were in error and have a false religion. That is not how he described the Anglican deacon coming to the mosque that he attends. Rather that man came respectful of Muslim faith. I am suggesting to Dawud, that while he may old the religion of the Sikhs to be in error and false, that if he wants to be well received he should still approach them in a resepctful way. I also suggested to him that if this Anglican deacon had entered the mosque in a manner similar to how he has suggested that he might go and visit the Sikhs, that the Anglican deacon may not have found the same cordial reception that he has.

To put it in colloquial speach, "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
i agree i would try to approach respectfully but i would be open and honest with my intentions also as i cannot lie in normal life, nor when trying to talk to others about my faith.

and the christian deacon does indeed state he is muslim and christian at the same time, strange as that is!

Abu Abdullah
Reply

PCJS
02-12-2007, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
this is what i mean, you are not using reason, that is blind acceptence of a concept of the Guru Granth Sahib to be true without questioning.

i also accept the Quran to be true absolutely as you trust your book but my reason meant i tested it to see if it was true before i became muslim as i couldnt accept christianity blindly so nor could i accept islam blindly and nor should you accept sikhi blindly.

if blind ritual is so dangerous in your faith surely blind faith without questioning is far worse?

Abu Abdullah
No, I don't accept Sikhi blindly. Sikhi is the closest to humanity one could get. The only difference is what logically makes sense to me may not logically make sense to you and vice versa. We, as humans, have certain limit and you may not go beyond that limit.

See we are so different that you don't even understand where I am coming from :-)
Reply

Grace Seeker
02-12-2007, 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i agree i would try to approach respectfully but i would be open and honest with my intentions also as i cannot lie in normal life, nor when trying to talk to others about my faith.
That's all I was saying. Glad you understood.

and the christian deacon does indeed state he is muslim and christian at the same time, strange as that is!
Yes, that is strange. Has he always said that, or only after attending the mosque for a period of time?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-12-2007, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i agree entirely,

appeals to reason though dont always work because people see following a book as reasonable. for example i believe the Quran and sunnah to be true so therefore use them as additional sources of evidence to base logical decisions upon.

i assume the sikhs see the Guru Granth Sahib as the same and hence why i am studying it.

So if i can show you flaws in the Guru Granth Sahib would you agree that using reason and sense that you religion is also flawed and untrue?

Abu Abdullah
The lack of understanding of a verse or phrase, does not mean it's flawed. Like PCS said. You can't find a flaw. It's the word of God. Disagree with it, but it's not flawed. Theolgians have tried but failed.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-12-2007, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
that is what i thought,

i kept reading though that sikhs reject rituals but yet they are doing rituals and hence my confusion.

can you pm me any articles on the difference in feeling here between ritual and blind ritual? others have contradicted you that is all.

but i would say all would say they are against blind ritual without understanding the reasons for it etc. this isnt something particular to sikhi.

Abu Abdullah

1 - anDhaa kachaa kach nikach. ||1|| rahaa-o.

If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?

2 - mannai mag na chalai panth.

The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals.


3 - manmukh karam kamaavnay ji-o dohaagan tan seegaar.
The self-willed manmukh performs religious rituals, like the unwanted bride decorating her body.

Meaningless rituals such as going hajj, bathing in the ganges because this apparently 'cleanses the soul'
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
02-13-2007, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
[B]1 - anDhaa kachaa kach nikach. ||1|| rahaa-o.



2 - mannai mag na chalai panth.

the faithful do not follow empty religious rituals


Which is why we muslims follow a true miracle the Quran ( recitation), the Criterion, the Quran is the ONLY book in the World which Claims to be the Word of God and it has never been disaproved many have tried ALL have failed, the Quran actually challenges mankind saying to make just one verse like it in its elequence, strenght and beauty, and until 1428 NO ONE NONE, and that is why the Prophet did not write it down him self, becuase he could neither read nor write, another sign because how could an illiterate ever produce a Quran (recitation) like this? no one has ever been able to do it even the most eloquent arabs ,its says:

1. it will remain the same FOREVER, it still is, if i go to china there and see a muslim chinese brother he will say the same as that which i have said, and if i were to go 500 years back to the past it would still be the same, please listen it is for your own good.


this is the definition of Eloquent:-Eloquent suggests clarity and power: an eloquent plea for disarmament. Fluent, with a root sense of flowing, refers to easy, smooth, facile speech
-having or exercising the power of fluent, forceful, and appropriate speech: an eloquent orator... wouldnt it be for God to be the Best?

2. it is Divine, it calms the heart, none can produce something like it, its eloquence, please try and when you have produced some thing like it HOlla BAck ! ( YOU WIL NEVER BE ABLE) would it not be for God to produce a book which is and cannot be replicated and is literally divine in its eloquence.
meanwhile you follow something made by a man how long ago? 300? nothing in its eloquence and truly misguiding, the world knows the Quran is and has been the same forever and it also knows that there has never been a Book so eloquent
4. ''Meaningless rituals such as going hajj, bathing in the ganges because this apparently 'cleanses the soul''' ...

I thought you were supposed to be peacefull, do you want to talk about meaninglessness? what about the hair, you let it grow and say that God would not have given it to you if He wanted it to be cut off, okay is that true? then why did God give you nails if He did not want it to be cut? why do you cut your nails?

5.
''If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?''

man, wouldnt it be respectfull to at least wash yourself before begging God for Mercy...:rolleyes:

i leave with this : [59:22] He is the One GOD; there is no other god beside Him. Knower of all secrets and declarations. He is the Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

[59:23] He is Allah; there is no other god beside Him. The King, the Most Sacred, the Peace, the Most Faithful, the Supreme, the Almighty, the Most Powerful, the Most Dignified. GOD be glorified; far above having partners.

[59:24] He is the Allah; the Creator, the Initiator, the Designer. To Him belong the most beautiful names. Glorifying Him is everything in the heavens and the earth. He is the Almighty, Most Wise.

say what ever you want> we will see on The Day Of Judgment which of us is right and which one is astray..
may Allah (The One and Only True God in arabic) forgive you ..:w:
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-13-2007, 09:32 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
That's all I was saying. Glad you understood.

Yes, that is strange. Has he always said that, or only after attending the mosque for a period of time?
well i understand he has been doing dialogue events with muslims for a number of years and even been with peace campaigners to palestine but since he has been attending the mosque regular he has started to say he is a muslim also and prays five times a day in the mosque as well as going to church.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-13-2007, 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
1 - anDhaa kachaa kach nikach. ||1|| rahaa-o.

If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?

2 - mannai mag na chalai panth.

The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals.


3 - manmukh karam kamaavnay ji-o dohaagan tan seegaar.
The self-willed manmukh performs religious rituals, like the unwanted bride decorating her body.

Meaningless rituals such as going hajj, bathing in the ganges because this apparently 'cleanses the soul'
but you believe your meditations cleanse your soul do you not?

both are rituals. i agree ritual without understanding or knowing the meaning doesnt make much sense but any ritual can become such.

however ritual taking into consideration its reasons and used as a means of seeking nearness to God by following his commands and submitting yourself to his will is certainly not worthless.

but thanks for the clarifications that sikhs are against blind ritual and not ritual full stop.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-13-2007, 04:16 PM
You keep saying the same thing Dawaud. Blind rituals are of no use. - Going to places of pilgrimage and claim they cleanse the soul are useless. This is what our scriptures state. This does not mean we are told not to clean before we pray. You seem to have taken grasp of one word and taken flight.
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
02-13-2007, 04:29 PM
cant you read? i told you that you are following blindly i gave you a great explanation of our miracle ( Quran) i told you Unless you find someone who can replicate the Quran in both its eloquence and beauty, dont say nothing. convince me if you can, otherwise..

and I was not the one saying that you dont bath it was your guru, i Qoute;
''Meaningless rituals such as going hajj, BATHING in the ganges because this apparently 'cleanses the soul'

so you have just dissapproved your guru....

IF IM NOT MISTAKEN BATHING MEANS BATHING UNLESS YOU SPECIFY OTHERWISE i told you alreAdy we shall see on the Day of judgment.. peace
,...
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
02-13-2007, 04:34 PM
it has been said that sikhism is a copycat of islam want to know why?

"In times of trouble, God is remembered by all But none remembers Him during peace and happiness. If God is remembered in good times of happiness Why should trouble occur?"

Compare this with the following verse of the Qur’an: "When some trouble toucheth man, He crieth unto his Lord, Turning to Him in repentance: But when He bestoweth A favour upon him As from Himself, (Man) doth forget what he cried And prayed for before, And he doth set up Rivals unto Allah." [Al-Qur’an 39:8]

coincidence? i think not!
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-13-2007, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You keep saying the same thing Dawaud. Blind rituals are of no use. - Going to places of pilgrimage and claim they cleanse the soul are useless. This is what our scriptures state. This does not mean we are told not to clean before we pray. You seem to have taken grasp of one word and taken flight.
but yet people can go on hajj and gain no benefit from it!

it is a means of seeking nearness to God, not the act itself that is purifying but putting yourself into a state of total submission to God through such acts and i assume you would say the same about your own rituals.

i thought sikhs also visit the golden Gurdwarra in india?

if the intention is not correct then actions can be worthless, as can be acts not carried out in the correct manner, as can be acts that are not carried out in a state of physical purity as you aknowledge yourself.

so to say such rituals as hajj are blind ritual is not correct, it is an act carried out with good intention and showing a state of submission to God. not blind at all.

hope you understand where i am coming from here but i am glad you have confirmed that ritual is part of sikhi but it is blind ritual we can come together and condemn.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-13-2007, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
but yet people can go on hajj and gain no benefit from it!

it is a means of seeking nearness to God, not the act itself that is purifying but putting yourself into a state of total submission to God through such acts and i assume you would say the same about your own rituals.

i thought sikhs also visit the golden Gurdwarra in india?

if the intention is not correct then actions can be worthless, as can be acts not carried out in the correct manner, as can be acts that are not carried out in a state of physical purity as you aknowledge yourself.

so to say such rituals as hajj are blind ritual is not correct, it is an act carried out with good intention and showing a state of submission to God. not blind at all.

hope you understand where i am coming from here but i am glad you have confirmed that ritual is part of sikhi but it is blind ritual we can come together and condemn.

Abu Abdullah
Going to the Golden Temple is NOT essentail. Going Hajj is, correct?

A Sikh is taught only the worship of God done via reciting prayers and such can bring you closer to God. Yet, our actions draw us even closer. Charity, and love for humankind is essential. Not mere reciting of prayers.

Dawaud, I must say I'm glad to be iin a discussion with you, you have respect and I like the way you put your point across.

Gur Fateh
:D
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-13-2007, 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Going to the Golden Temple is NOT essentail. Going Hajj is, correct?

A Sikh is taught only the worship of God done via reciting prayers and such can bring you closer to God. Yet, our actions draw us even closer. Charity, and love for humankind is essential. Not mere reciting of prayers.

Dawaud, I must say I'm glad to be iin a discussion with you, you have respect and I like the way you put your point across.

Gur Fateh
:D
respect for the others position is the first thing we should have in dialogue, this means we have to try to see things from their position and understand their point of view even when we dont agree with it.

the difference we have here is that you see hajj as a blind ritual, yet i believe it to be a beautiful act of worship that leads someone on a spiritual as well as a physical journey and this leads them into God's good books, not the actual physical act of going there.

i have heard many lectures from various imams and scholars on this issue, indeed my local imam near where i live now in sheffield does a simular talk every year to the hajjis, those going on hajj. that they need to learn the reasons for their journey, purify their intention etc etc not just let it be a blind ritual.

if someone performed such an act just because it was expected of them, i,e a blind ritualistic way then as such it would be show off, this is minor shirk because you are doing an act not for God or not purely for God but for the sake of human pleasure and to get them to say good of you.

now i could see how a sikh going to the Golden Gurdwara could believe the same, i would disagree with him and say his mission was false as despite his good intentions he was on a false path and that the true path is islam but i would understand his reasoning for such a pilgrimage.

simularly though, a sikh could also perform such blind rituals in your own faith's rituals if he / she allowed their intention or concentration to slip totally,

this is not a failing particular to islam and singling out Allah / God totally for worship is not an attribute particular to sikhi.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

One Man Army
02-13-2007, 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by Aman4islam
look at the question mark and look at my question .

"Tell me isn't it true, many people believe dasam granth and guru granth sahib's bhog can take place at the same spot?"This is what I asked you.


I am not talking about respecting, but giving the equal honor as the SGGS in a same deewan where a bhog can tak place. A bhog of Dasam granth takes place and recently there was bhog by taksal and nihang singhs. So yeah...
why cant it? like i said, dasam granth is Guru Gobind Singh jees bani! the only difference is, i have answered your question.
gurbani is the Guru!
Dasam Granth is just a different type of scripture, more for warfare and exceptional power for times of battle. whats wrong with doing an akhand paath of dasam granth? the bani is the guru! and that is Guru Gobind Singh jees bani!

Originally Posted by Aman4islam
:w:

So not even one point is true?everything is false?

"Show me a person who refutes the SGGS is not the only holy book?"
Not just one person more than, maybe in thousands, what baout the followers of fake baba Paniarawala who arote his own granth and said SGGS is fake and his followers. (NOTE:Its Paniarawala not Sant Bhindranwale, just to make sure)
well how can they be classed as sikhs!!! a sikh is one who follows Guru Granth Sahib jee. a GURSIKH! a sikh of the Guru! not a sikh of some fake paniarawala idiot. if i write a book now, and start preaching it, does it make my followers sikhs??

Originally Posted by Aman4islam
THE MEAT ISSUE

HAD TO MAKE A SPECIAL REPLY.

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)

As a true Vaisnavite Kabir remained a strict vegetarian. Kabir far from defying Brahmanical tradition as to the eating of meat, would not permit so much, as the plucking of a flower (G.G.S. pg 479), whereas Nanak deemed all such scruples to be superstitions, Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or the non-destruction of life, which extended even to that of flowers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary, allowed and even encouraged, the use of animal flesh as food. Nanak has exposed this Ahinsa superstition in Asa Ki War (G.G.S. pg 472) and Malar Ke War (G.G.S. pg. 1288).

In general Sikhism has adopted an ambivalent attitude towards meat eating as against vegetarianism. But if meat is to be taken at all, Guru Gobind Singh enjoined on the Khalsa Panth not to take kosher meat ie. Halal meat slaughtered and prepared for eating according to the Islamic practice. In fact it is one of the kurahits for every amritdhari Sikh. One who infringes it becomes patit (apostate).

The Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off.Since the rules that guide and Amritdhari are from the Rehit-Marayada, which places no taboo on meat eating. The reason why meat is not served at langar in the Gurdwaras is because langar is supposed to be a symbol of equality of mankind where all people no matter what race, religion or caste can eat together in the atmosphere of brotherhood. Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, it does not matter who they are. Different religions have different dietary restrictions. Hindus cannot eat cow, muslims cannot eat pork and will only eat halal meat. Jews will only eat kosher meat, others cannot eat fish or eggs. But in a gurdwara langar, it does not matter what their dietary taboos or religious beliefs are, the food is designed so that all can eat together and no one will be offended or not be able to partake of the meal.

mehlaa 1.

maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee jaanai.
ka-un maas ka-un saag kahaavai kis meh paap samaanay.
gaiNdaa maar hom jag kee-ay dayviti-aa kee baanay.
maas chhod bais nak pakrheh raatee maanas khaanay.
farh kar lokaaN no dikhlaavahi gi-aan Dhi-aan nahee soojhai.
naanak anDhay si-o ki-aa kahee-ai kahai na kahi-aa boojhai.
anDhaa so-ay je anDh kamaavai tis ridai se lochan naahee.
maat pitaa kee rakat nipannay machhee maas na khaaNhee.


First Mehl:
The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.
What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?
It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.
Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.
They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.
O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.
They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.
They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji
yes but theres alot more in this shabad, along with a sakhi that puts it all into perspective...

But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.
All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.
They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.
In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.
You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.
It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.
Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.
If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.
The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.

You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.
O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.
Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.
Water says, ""I am good in many ways."" But water takes many forms.
Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||


Vaishnavs who make their whole religion a rejection of maas/meat or Jains who despise meat are blind. They don't have the wisdom of the Guru and so they don't know what to eat and what not to eat. If someone cheats and steals, the food purchased with that money is the same as meat even if it is saag. People like the Jains eat things that are inedible like rotten grain but won't eat things like onion, ginger, etc. This is because they have no spiritual knowledge because they don't have knowledge from Satguru.

These pandits make a big show of rejecting meat and hold their nose but they have no shame in looting and cheating.

The pandit has so much pride over his rejection of meat but even in the Hindu faith there have been sacrifices and there are many references in the Hindu scriptures as well, not to mention the Semitic ones.

Having such a hatred of meat that they are afraid to be near it or even touch it is foolish. We ourselves are made of meat. Inside us is meat just like the meat we see for sale in the markets. Our families are made of meat and all our acquaintances. If meat is so bad, then why do you associate with them? Why do the Pandits take money and make their living from Royalty? They too are made of meat.

What is meat and flesh made of? It is not some dirty substance. It is made from grain and water that we eat. So why do you hate it so much?

Only when you get wisdom from Satguru and are able to overcome the lure of these physical "ras" will you be able to become a real Sanyasi.

The gist of this shabad is a condemnation of the pakhand Pandits do when they run away from even the sight of meat and can't even fathom touching it. It says that without Satguru, there is no knowledge

Nowhere in this shabad is there any indication that we should eat meat. Just that we shouldn't hate it because WE are made of meat and we shouldn't think that by giving it up we are spiritual. There is no indication in this shabad that says "meat eating is ok".
.

This shabad goes to when Guru Sahib is critising the pandits of their ways and mentallities!

why do you seem to think meditation is a ritual?? have you ever experienced it? or gurbani??? may be if u felt the rass (bliss) you will see it is not ritual, but the fact that Gursikhs actually enjoy doing it. if i go play football everyday does that make it a ritual? no! becuz i do it as i enjoy playing that a sport, not doing it for the sake of doing so!


"In times of trouble, God is remembered by all But none remembers Him during peace and happiness. If God is remembered in good times of happiness Why should trouble occur?"

In times of trouble, God is remembered by all But none remembers Him during peace and happiness. If God is remembered in good times of happiness Why should trouble occur?"

Compare this with the following verse of the Qur’an: "When some trouble toucheth man, He crieth unto his Lord, Turning to Him in repentance: But when He bestoweth A favour upon him As from Himself, (Man) doth forget what he cried And prayed for before, And he doth set up Rivals unto Allah." [Al-Qur’an 39:8]
How can u even call that a copy? is something is said, and it is truth, that means that its being copied????? so your saying any quotes from any sacred text that have the same meaning is a direct copy?? nonsence!

Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
cant you read? i told you that you are following blindly i gave you a great explanation of our miracle ( Quran) i told you Unless you find someone who can replicate the Quran in both its eloquence and beauty, dont say nothing. convince me if you can, otherwise..

and I was not the one saying that you dont bath it was your guru, i Qoute;
''Meaningless rituals such as going hajj, [B]BATHING in the ganges because this apparently 'cleanses the soul'[/b]
so you have just dissapproved your guru....

IF IM NOT MISTAKEN BATHING MEANS BATHING UNLESS YOU SPECIFY OTHERWISE i told you alreAdy we shall see on the Day of judgment.. peace
,...
BATHING IN THE GANGES! i think thats specified otherwise....
Reply

One Man Army
02-13-2007, 11:47 PM
As for your areguements about the missionaries... you will always hav people with different views. like i said, if i was to even begin on the different sects of islam, id probably be here all day! it doesnt mean that they are right. akaal takht sahib sets core maryada. the bare bones. understand this.
i spoke to a gursikh yesterday that informed me that the actual panj piareh of sri akaal takht sahib condem the eating of meat. if you have queriers, ask them your self at next amrit sanchaar.
in any religion you will have fractions, and variations in believe. the only difference is, in sikhi, the core belief is the same.. hence akaal takht maryada.
Reply

IB-Staff
02-14-2007, 12:03 AM
Please remain aware that any posts that cross the line into promoting another religion will be deleted. Discussion and dialogue are encouraged but please adhere to the forum rules.

Thank you.
Reply

One Man Army
02-14-2007, 12:15 AM
[QUOTE=DAWUD_adnan;654210]

4. ''Meaningless rituals such as going hajj, bathing in the ganges because this apparently 'cleanses the soul''' ...

I thought you were supposed to be peacefull, do you want to talk about meaninglessness?
explain please?

what about the hair, you let it grow and say that God would not have given it to you if He wanted it to be cut off, okay is that true? then why did God give you nails if He did not want it to be cut? why do you cut your nails?

Hair is a gift from God, therefore why should anyone throw it away by cutting it? Sikhs live the way God made humans and never cut their hair. For Sikhs hair is the symbol of love for God and the respect for everything He has given us. The way God made us is the most beautiful of all. To Christians, even the Bible says, “God loves us and cares so much about us that even all the hairs of our head has well counted” (Matt.10:30).

Hair is one of the five symbols of Sikh faith. One of the reason to keep hair is to preserve the Sikh identity. Sikhs are only 2% of India’s population, if Sikhs do not keep hair, they would be lost in the crowd of Hindus and Muslims.
superficial study of the two shows them to be extremely different from each other. Hair is not a hindrance to anyone. Because hair can be placed in a bun and kept clean and does perform a number of functions, it is only pragmatic to realize that hair is not bad. On the other hand, nails are an important part of the human body, having long nails is a hindrance to the body. An individual with long nails cannot functions and do everyday chores comfortably. In order to ensure that one can perform the tasks of everyday life, nails are trimmed.

In addition, whereas the hair grows from a tubular pit (hair follicle), formed by sinking in of the most actively dividing layer of the skin (stratum germinativum) into the lower dermis, the nails are only modifications of the upper dead layers of the skin (stratum corneum). Further, the base of every follicle bulges out forming an inverted cup, which receives blood capillaries for nourishment and nerve fibers to make the hair sensitive. An oil gland, known as sebaceous gland, opens into every hair follicle, the secretion of which lubricates the hair. A muscle is also attached to the base of every hair for bringing about movement. Pigments are added to the shaft of the hair as it grows. None of these features is associated with the nails.

Structurally also, hair is extremely strong, and resists breaking due to its elasticity and flexibility. Strength of hair can be estimated from the following facts, a human hair laid on a bar of steel and then passed through a cold rolling mill would leave an imprint on the face of the steel. A hair of a man’s beard is about as strong as a copper wire of the same dimensions. If a rope were made out of strands of long hair, it would be strong enough to lift an automobile. Nails, on the other hand, are very brittle and rigid, breaking off easily. Hair are countless (upto 1,25,000 on head region alone), thereby increasing the surface area, as if to meet a specific requirement.

The differences between the two do not end with the structural features. Even the body’s response towards the two is totally different. Our body, throughout life, tries to maintain a particular length of hair. And if the hair is cut anywhere, the body responds by growing it again to the specific length. It clearly indicates the link of the body with the hair all along its length. The body shows no such response to the nails, which grow from birth to death at the same rate, irrespective of whether cut or not. It follows, thus, that cutting of nails does not tell on the body at all, whereas, cutting of hair puts extra load on the body. To sum up, if there is anything on the head that can be compared with the nails, it is dandruff!

Nature knows best what to discard or retain. Whatever is retained is not without purpose. Hair is a gift from God, not a burden. Guru Gobind Singh Ji, in his infinite wisdom, commanded us to respect hair and refrain from tampering with it. This is the visible token of his affection for us, as well as our faith in him.

Nails are simply dead bone. they will break eventually, and are a waste product, no where near the same as hair
Reply

IB-Staff
02-14-2007, 12:34 AM
Nobody is scared for Aman. Your post violated forum rules. However if it were as you claim, your posts above would also have been deleted.

Please remain on topic.
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
02-14-2007, 02:25 AM
''How can u even call that a copy? is something is said, and it is truth, that means that its being copied????? so your saying any quotes from any sacred text that have the same meaning is a direct copy?? nonsence!''

Not only is it a copy(direct) it does shows how the Quran(Criterion) can not be edited in way which is different but could be similar, without flaws occuring, notice the flaws:

''In times of trouble, God is remembered by all But none remembers Him during peace and happiness. If God is remembered in good times of happiness Why should trouble occur?"

Compare this with the following verse of the Qur’an: "When some trouble toucheth man, He crieth unto his Lord, Turning to Him in repentance: But when He bestoweth A favour upon him As from Himself, (Man) doth forget what he cried And prayed for before, And he doth set up Rivals unto Allah." [Al-Qur’an 39:8]

All the underlined is a copy
The bold is a flaw

why? clearly this is a mistake since even the best humans will go through the hardest hardships for God to test their ability of patience and conduct, why were the most religious sikhs hurt so much even though they were ''good'', if your guru says "why should trouble occur?" would this mean that they were and are not good enough since they have and still are going through hardships?

definition of Trouble : A state of distress, affliction, difficulty,


why was your guru going through hardships if he was remembering God so good? Could it perhaps be that he was not good enough? but if that is so how could you follow him? Quran rules face it dude, even when the guy tried to copy he still couldnt ....
I leave with this:

[40:22] That is because their messengers went to them with clear proofs, but they disbelieved. Consequently, Allah punished them. He is Mighty, strict in enforcing retribution.


Peace
Answered by the Quran peace ! holla back !
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
02-14-2007, 02:36 AM
:sl:

''How can u even call that a copy? is something is said, and it is truth, that means that its being copied????? so your saying any quotes from any sacred text that have the same meaning is a direct copy?? nonsence!''

Not only is it a copy(direct) it does shows how the Quran(Criterion) can not be edited in way which is different but could be similar, without flaws occuring, notice the flaws:

''In times of trouble, God is remembered by all But none remembers Him during peace and happiness. If God is remembered in good times of happiness Why should trouble occur?"

Compare this with the following verse of the Qur’an: "When some trouble toucheth man, He crieth unto his Lord, Turning to Him in repentance: But when He bestoweth A favour upon him As from Himself, (Man) doth forget what he cried And prayed for before, And he doth set up Rivals unto Allah." [Al-Qur’an 39:8]
Those verses remind me of the ones Musaylamah Al Kadhab made up trying to imitate the Qur'an. Indeed anyone who tries to imitate this Book, Allaah will cause him to fail miserably.

Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).
Reply

One Man Army
02-14-2007, 09:05 AM
this is just rubbish. if something said is truth, then it is truth! no matter where it has come from! it doesnt mean it has been copied. the Guru did not go through hardship what so ever in worldy affairs, if u know any thing about sikhi u will know so... example, when Guru Gobind Singh jee gave up 4 sons for the khalsa and didnt shed one tear, and instead spoke of how thousands of his sons still live. despite his younger sons being aged 6 and 8 and being tortured alive.
The Guru writes in perspective for us. for us to understand. and for us to realise.

If something is true then it is true. in that case we could sit here all day finding similar quotes from the quran and other sacred texts matching similarirites and calling them copies.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-14-2007, 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

does sikhi also not have martyrs to its faith?

Abu Abdullah
Many! - But no mention of virgins wine etc etc.

The mere thought of being with God is sufficient. What he gives us while we are there, is up to him.
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Malaikah
02-14-2007, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
The mere thought of being with God is sufficient. What he gives us while we are there, is up to him.
Really? So why is it you are attacking what the Muslims are given by God in heaven if it is 'up to Him'?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-14-2007, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Really? So why is it you are attacking what the Muslims are given by God in heaven if it is 'up to Him'?
Because we don't believe he's compiled a list like you claim in the Quran
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-14-2007, 12:56 PM
Dawaud

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist...rs/nojava.html

Our GREATEST MARTYS

Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji The first Sikh Guru to be Martyred by Mughal Emperor Shahjehan (one who built Taj Mahal) for not converting to Islam.

Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur ji - were Ninth Guru who were martyred by Emperor Aurungzeb at Chandani Chowk Delhi, for not converting to Islam.

Bhai Satidass ji went along with Guru Tegh Bahadur and were martyred to Chandani Chowk Delhi.

Bhai Dyal Dass ji also went along with Guru Tegh Bahadur to Delhi and were martyred at Chandani Chowk Delhi.

Chhote Sahibzade were the young Sons of Guru Gobind Singh who were captured by the Mughal Governor of City of Sarhind, Wazir Khan. He martyred 7 year and 9 years Old Sikhs for not converting to Islam.

Mata Gujari ji , Guru Gobind Singh's mother left this world after hearing the martyrdom of his grandsons .

Bhai Haqiqat Rai ji at the tender teenage, he was too proud to be a Sikh, resulting in his martyrdom by the hands of Mughals at Lahore.

Bhai Mani Singh ji was the pious Granthi of Golden Temple who was given option either to convert or to be cut into pieces. He picked death to be cut into pieces and with Gurbani on his lips he attained martyrdom.

Many Sikhs were Martyred by the cruel Mughal Governor of Lahore named Zakriya Khan.

Bhai Tarusingh ji were captured by Mughals on as he was feeding Sikhs who were hiding from Government. He was martyred by Mughals but only by cutting his scalp and not his hair.

Bhai Subeg singh and Bhai Shahbaz Singh were father and son who were martyred on specially created wheels.

The Khalsa Women and children were martyred by Meer Mannu for not converting to Islam.
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One Man Army
02-14-2007, 01:09 PM
just a tip off the iceberg that khalsa has just posted. if we was to go into the nature of some of their shaheedi's u wont understand how just normal people could undergo such torture whilst peacefully sitting reciting gurbani
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AvarAllahNoor
02-14-2007, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by ultimate truth
just a tip off the iceberg that khalsa has just posted. if we was to go into the nature of some of their shaheedi's u wont understand how just normal people could undergo such torture whilst peacefully sitting reciting gurbani
Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur ji:'( imsad

How Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji did not feel pain, when he was tourtured on the hot metal plate, as fire was lit beneath & hot sand poured over his head.
imsad
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Dawud_uk
02-14-2007, 01:29 PM
there are many people who do not feel pain under extreme conditions, it does not in itself constitute a miracle or proof of such a person recieving divine guidence and help.

there were also many muslims killed by sikhs, but we need to get past such old arguments or we will never learn to get along and respect each others views even if we disagree with each other.

Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
02-14-2007, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk

there were also many muslims killed by sikhs, but we need to get past such old arguments or we will never learn to get along and respect each others views even if we disagree with each other.

Abu Abdullah
This is our history. No Sikh killed a muslim in the same way as above! Read what a muslim says about how the Sikhs treat prisoners and how we are on the battlefield! Does not mean we hate muslims ( well I don't) Allah has told us to fogive just as Jesus did on the cross. - Giving you an insight to our history. It's not to say we had hindus conspire against the Gurus too, but not to the point mugals did.
Reply

Dawud_uk
02-14-2007, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
This is our history. No Sikh killed a muslim in the same way as above! Read what a muslim says about how the Sikhs treat prisoners and how we are on the battlefield! Does not mean we hate muslims ( well I don't) Allah has told us to fogive just as Jesus did on the cross. - Giving you an insight to our history. It's not to say we had hindus conspire against the Gurus too, but not to the point mugals did.
i have many issues with the mogul rulers, mostly that they didnt rule by shariah in almost every instance and were certainly not the best example of islam for anyone to look at.

this what you are saying about the torture and so on only shows me more that they were not ruling by the law of Allah but according to their whims and desires.

therefore just as you have shown me the hatred and bile that comes from some who claim the sikh faith is not according to your way of life then accept that such tortures are not according to our way of life if sincerely followed.

Abu Abdullah
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AvarAllahNoor
02-14-2007, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i have many issues with the mogul rulers, mostly that they didnt rule by shariah in almost every instance and were certainly not the best example of islam for anyone to look at.

this what you are saying about the torture and so on only shows me more that they were not ruling by the law of Allah but according to their whims and desires.

therefore just as you have shown me the hatred and bile that comes from some who claim the sikh faith is not according to your way of life then accept that such tortures are not according to our way of life if sincerely followed.

Abu Abdullah
I know. And I've also highlighted the Muslims who were loyal to the Gurus too. Read my posts on it previously, or you can create a thread and we can discuss the good of Sikh - Muslim relations.

Golden Temple foundations were laid by Sian Mian Mir, why? Because to sow the equality of mankind. No hatred shown towards muslims because of the actions of a few misguided fools. Sikhi is unique.
Reply

Muslim Woman
02-28-2007, 03:26 PM


Salaam/peace;


Guru Nanak Dev Ji didn't go to Mecca to perform Hajj. Instead he busted a myth that God lived in Mecca only


---Muslims don’t believe that God lives in Holy Macca .......who told u so ? Holy Kaaba in Macca is a mosque……..the first mosque in the earth.


Originally Posted by cali dude
.....
Find out what happened in Mecca. Guru Nanak Dev Ji went there

Unless one is a Muslim , it’s not possible to enter Kaaba. So , how the Guru went there ? IF u really believe that he went there , then why it’s impossible that he embraced Islam ?


. In my simple theory, those who can't have peace on this earth, how can they ever go to a peaceful place after they die?

---LOL. U think those are ' so-called ' happy in this world will be happy in life hereafter , too ? Is this the teaching of Sikhism ? Bush is king of this world....do u think , he is surely going to heaven ?



Reply

cali dude
02-28-2007, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Salaam/peace;

---Muslims don’t believe that God lives in Holy Macca .......who told u so ? Holy Kaaba in Macca is a mosque……..the first mosque in the earth.
Then why is it that you don't lie down with your feet towards Mecca?

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Unless one is a Muslim , it’s not possible to enter Kaaba. So , how the Guru went there ? IF u really believe that he went there , then why it’s impossible that he embraced Islam ?
Nothing is impossible for a person united with God. If you look at the link I provided, it says that Guru wore all the clothes haajis did. So, it is possible that people assumed he was a haajji.

Something interesting to read from http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?t...anak_in_Mecca:

In the morning, a number of learned hajjis gathered around the Guru. They held religious discussions with him. He satisfied every one of them. He explained to them his golden rules of life and religion. They listened to him with utmost attention. They agreed to live and act as advised by him. One of them said to the Guru, ‘Holy Sir, give me something which will always remind me of you.’ The Guru gave him his pair of sandals. They were respectfully kept in the Kaaba for some time. That Muslim fakir then returned to India. He brought the sandals with him. He kept them in his temple at Uch in Bahawalpur, now in Pakistan.
Why would he want to convert when he was a messenger himself?

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

---LOL. U think those are ' so-called ' happy in this world will be happy in life hereafter , too ? Is this the teaching of Sikhism ? Bush is king of this world....do u think , he is surely going to heaven ?
This is something people don't understand. There is a difference between being happy and being peaceful. A Sikh is supposed to have control over mind by controlling five vices - Kaam, Krodh, loabh, moh and hankaar - lust, anger, greed, worldly attachment and ego. Once you have controlled five vices, you achieved peace within. Once you have achieved peace within, this will be reflected in your actions. So, once you have achieved this state of mind, you will not be committing terrorism, will not bashing homosexuals and will not use dirty tricks to convert people. In fact, you won't even be interested in converting people at all. Instead, you will understand that people have freedom to live their as they wish. You will simply have full control over your own self. You will not have any negative effect at all on the world.

It has nothing to do with what Bush is doing.
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- Qatada -
02-28-2007, 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Then why is it that you don't lie down with your feet towards Mecca?

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “There is no sin on a person if he sleep with his feet towards the Ka’bah, rather the fuqaha’ (may Allaah have mercy on them) said: if a sick person cannot stand or sit, he should pray lying on his side with his face towards the qiblah, and if he cannot then he should pray on his back with his feet towards the qiblah.”



Fataawa Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 2/976



http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=20943&ln=eng&txt=



Nothing is impossible for a person united with God. If you look at the link I provided, it says that Guru wore all the clothes haajis did. So, it is possible that people assumed he was a haajji.

Something interesting to read from http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?t...anak_in_Mecca:


Why would he want to convert when he was a messenger himself?

So God is inside humans now..? Just like christianity? Allaah is Above what they associate with Him.


This is something people don't understand. There is a difference between being happy and being peaceful. A Sikh is supposed to have control over mind by controlling five vices - Kaam, Krodh, loabh, moh and hankaar - lust, anger, greed, worldly attachment and ego. Once you have controlled five vices, you achieved peace within. Once you have achieved peace within, this will be reflected in your actions. So, once you have achieved this state of mind, you will not be committing terrorism, will not bashing homosexuals and will not use dirty tricks to convert people. In fact, you won't even be interested in converting people at all. Instead, you will understand that people have freedom to live their as they wish. You will simply have full control over your own self. You will not have any negative effect at all on the world.

It has nothing to do with what Bush is doing.


So that means they don't call others towards being with God and these people should be left alone? Because their not worthy of being with God in the hereafter?
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