Somali Islamists Flee Kismayo

[AntonK]

Just like they fled from Mogadishu when the Ethiopians approached, the Islamic Courts Union forces are hightailing it out of their last stronghold of Kismayo. Now they’re blustering about starting an insurgency. Whatever. They had vowed to stand and fight it out, but they learned it’s a lot harder to fight trained men with guns instead of women and children.

I expect some of the soldiers will simply desert and blend back in to society. As for the runners, where are they going? If you imagine Somalia shaped like a big number 7, they are now down in the very bottom of the 7 and have no place to go but Kenya:

Residents of Kismayo said the remaining Islamists were heading toward Ras Kamboni, a small town on the Kenyan border which western intelligence officers say has been used as a terrorist hide-out before.

Kenya officials have said that they have increased security on the border to keep the Islamists from escaping through Kenya.

I expect the big fish will get away, like they almost always do, but I think they will have trouble successfully fomenting a large-scale insurgency in Somalia. All the coverage suggests Somalis were thrilled to see them leave. Nobody likes the Taliban.

[Woodrow]

Please post a link to the quote.

[FBI]

:sl:

. All the coverage suggests Somalis were thrilled to see them leave

Wrong I'm somali and I can tell u my country doesn't want those criminal war lords in power, You do know nobody actually wanted the goverment there was no vote or anything they just took power, The people should decide and from what I've seen ICU wins hands down, but it's a shame a few munafiq somali's get air time.

[Skillganon]

May Allah(s.w.t) Grant victory to the believers against the munafiq and those who take the unblievers as their lords and protectors. Ameen.

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[FBI]

May Allah(s.w.t) Grant victory to the believers against the munafiq and those who take the unblievers as their lords and protectors. Ameen.

:sl:

Ameen

[Goku]

The Islamic Courts chased out the warlords who were wreaking havoc in Somalia and were backed by the US. The Islamists brought peace and stability after years of misrule by US backed warlods. So what does Ethipopia do? Try to chase out people who brought peace, and the US backs them. The current US administration doesnt want peace in Somalia. If the Ethipoians wanted to bring peace to Somalia, they would've chased out the warlods. But no, the evil tyrant Ethiopia didnt want peace in Somalia, they want the Somali people to suffer.

May the forces of Islam crush Ethiopia and bring peace into Somalia, Ameen. It is outrageous that Ethiopia invaded Somalia, killed its citizems, bombed their land, and attacked those who brought peace. I really hope Eritrea, and Arab and Muslim nations help the Islamic Courts drive out Ethiopia and finally bring peace into Somalia.

[AntonK]

Please post a link to the quote.

Sorry about that...here's the link

[Woodrow]

Thank you.

[samiya_06]

May Allah(s.w.t) Grant victory to the believers against the munafiq and those who take the unblievers as their lords and protectors. Ameen.

ameen

[Malaikah]

All the coverage suggests Somalis were thrilled to see them leave. Nobody likes the Taliban.

Why are you comparing them to the Taliban?

[Warthog]

Why are you comparing them to the Taliban?

They are the same. Nobody likes to be treated poorly.

[Malaikah]

Please explain how they are the same? I have not heard of them doing anything that people accuse the Taliban of doing.

[sudais1]

May Allah(s.w.t) Grant victory to the believers against the munafiq and those who take the unblievers as their lords and protectors. Ameen.

Ameen

[Nuseyba bintkab]

Am a Somalia and I know that the Somalia Government have done nothing for Somalia then bring pain and destroy my country rape women also they are selling women that women that are married to the men in the Islamic Courts Union What is that living hell people can not walk on the streets without asking them self will I die or live to die it was not like that six months ago it was freedom knowing that you are save on the streets. The Islamic Courts Union have done so much for Somalia and this is what they get back but they are not giving up on there country victory will be ours.

[miqu]

Totally agree with you, sister Nuseyba bintkab

the western media reporting totally biased, how come they even criticize IUC for banning khat ?

i salute the IUC for they withdrawal, if they faced the massive Ethiopian forces, yes there will bloodsheed and that will be a total disaster for Somalia. I hope they can influence the current "Government" official.

[AHMED_GUREY]

Just like they fled from Mogadishu when the Ethiopians approached,

the Islamic Courts spared the residents of Mogadishu of innocent bloodshed wich would have happend if they had stayed since the Government officials are traitors

the Islamic Courts Union forces are hightailing it out of their last stronghold of Kismayo. Now they’re blustering about starting an insurgency.

again same situation here 30 december the elders of Kismayo asked the Islamic Courts to spare Kismayo the way they spared Mogadishu[|-1-|]

Whatever. They had vowed to stand and fight it out, but they learned it’s a lot harder to fight trained men with guns instead of women and children.

you sound very ignorant my friend where in the last 7 months was the ICU fighting women and children?

are warlords women and children to you? who told you that nonsense?

brave untrained young men fought gallantly against superior numbers and weaponry and still they inflicted major setbacks on the Government/Ethiopian soldiers in Dinsoor and Idaale wich prompted them to use air attacks

Ethiopia knows it can't win a conventional war against a United Somalia that is why there leader is attacking us while we are still weak Meles Zenawi the traitor who we nurtured and fed for 15 years knows this that is why he's doing everything he can to prevent it

those Somali collaborating munafiqs will be judged as the biggest cowards and traitors in Somali history without a doubt

not my president

may he burn in hell this traitor will die a thousand deaths

I expect some of the soldiers will simply desert and blend back in to society. As for the runners, where are they going? If you imagine Somalia shaped like a big number 7, they are now down in the very bottom of the 7 and have no place to go but Kenya:

what do you mean? whole eastern Kenya is Somali land they can start whatever they planning to start between eastern Kenya and Ras kambooni

I expect the big fish will get away, like they almost always do, but I think they will have trouble successfully fomenting a large-scale insurgency in Somalia. All the coverage suggests Somalis were thrilled to see them leave. Nobody likes the Taliban.

oh no you are very wrong you don't understand the mentality of the Somali people who had to find ways to survive on their own for the last decade when nobody in the International community seem to care (untill the ICU arrived that is:rollseyes hypocrites)

they are tired :exhausted and therefore will cheer for any victor(even traitors) but but but they have tasted stability and peace under ICU rule and if this doesn't return.......

[miqu]

Dear brother gurey, can you send me the link that you put in this somalia - kismayo thread, because i couldn't see it. maybe you can send me via PM

Thank You

[AHMED_GUREY]

Brother Miqu if your signed on you should be able to see the link

if you still can't see the link now your signed on and your unable to click on it please let me know and i will send a Pm :)

[miqu]

yes i think i have 50 post first before i can see any link in here, please sent me a pm of the link.

[AHMED_GUREY]

ok:)

[Woodrow]

At the moment we all need to wait and see what happens next.

Islamic Reign Apparently Over in Somalia
Somalis enjoy new freedoms as government takes control from a fundamentalist Islamic movement


AP) For hundreds of young men, the promise of a brighter future and the Somali government's victory over a fundamentalist Islamic movement were symbolized by a flickering blue screen in a dusty Mogadishu movie theater.

"This is freedom and entertainment," Ahmed Abdi Ali said Tuesday as an Indian movie about a torrid love triangle played _ the kind of film that was banned by the Muslim militants. "The Islamic courts are gone."

For the first time in more than a decade, an internationally recognized government is operating in Mogadishu after driving out the Islamic courts movement that wanted to rule Somalia by the Quran. Although trouble is always lurking in this violent, gun-infested country, the reign of the widely feared Islamic courts appears to be over.

The group had imposed its strict interpretation of Islam on Mogadishu and much of southern Somalia since it took power in June, banning movies and Western music and terrifying residents into submission with the threat of floggings and public executions.

Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...8MDFKJ01.shtml

Quoting from above, I wonder if this is the "Freedom" most Somalians want.

"This is freedom and entertainment," Ahmed Abdi Ali said Tuesday as an Indian movie about a torrid love triangle played _ the kind of film that was banned by the Muslim militants. "The Islamic courts are gone."

[AHMED_GUREY]

At the moment we all need to wait and see what happens next.

Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...8MDFKJ01.shtml

Quoting from above, I wonder if this is the "Freedom" most Somalians want.

Woodrow these cinema's were banned for a reason and it was not because of Indian movies as they are trying to claim but for something far more sinister and embarrassing

the media criticized the courts for banning khat and painted this grim picture of the ban yet the west is praised whenever it's conducting a big campaign to crack down on khat smugglers

:blind:

[Woodrow]

Woodrow these cinema's were banned for a reason and it was not because of Indian movies as they are trying to claim but for something far more sinister and embarrassing

the media criticized the courts for banning khat and painted this grim picture of the ban yet the west is praised whenever it's conducting a big campaign to crack down on khat smugglers

:blind:

I agree Brother Ahmed. I'm just pointing out that suddenly things that we know to be haram are showing up as being acceptable in Somalia. There is too much of a change, too fast. Something does not smell right with this picture.

The Somalians I know are too good of Muslims to accept things that are haram. If the majority of Somalians do accept the haram life style, I do not see how the Islamic Courts could have acheived any control that they did have.

I am wondering whose voice are we hearing that is allegedly speaking for the Somalians.

[AHMED_GUREY]

I agree Brother Ahmed. I'm just pointing out that suddenly things that we know to be haram are showing up as being acceptable in Somalia. There is too much of a change, too fast. Something does not smell right with this picture.

The Somalians I know are too good of Muslims to accept things that are haram. If the majority of Somalians do accept the haram life style, I do not see how the Islamic Courts could have acheived any control that they did have.

I am wondering whose voice are we hearing that is allegedly speaking for the Somalians.

i feel sad for these traditional elders who are responsible for the safety of their communities, today like during the warlord era they seem to have no choice but to accept this lifestyle for their children or face bloodshed in the name of Democracy or bla bla bla

during the late 90's they pretended to tolerate the warlords but on a underground level formed the Islamic courts and when it eventually became stronger than the warlords they kicked them out 7 months ago but then this homegrown movement was discredited through the media and by the International community while it was still in it's infantcy

they claimed foreign fighters were present yet there is no concrete evidence to support this claim it was simply said to justify and support the war by well-trained Government/Ethiopian soldiers against young gallant courts fighters

if the Warlords are allowed by the government to return to their old pathetic fiefdoms then it's over for the TFG cause the residents will not tolerate this.

ps if i were you i would take any so-called voice intended to represent my people with a grain of salt:)

[rav]

Quoting from above, I wonder if this is the "Freedom" most Somalians want.

Why not? The religious can still follow and live the way they lived before, while not imposing their lifestyle on those who do not wish to follow their religious edicts.

If the majority of Somalians do accept the haram life style, I do not see how the Islamic Courts could have acheived any control that they did have.

Its called the "AK-47": (shortened from Russian: Автомат Калашникова образца 1947 года, Avtomat Kalashnikova 1947)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47

Studies show, that when one points the loaded "AK-47" at another person, they are able to exert tremendous amounts of control over the person.

The name for this is called being at "Gun Point".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpoint

[Malaikah]

Why not? The religious can still follow and live the way they lived before, while not imposing their lifestyle on those who do not wish to follow their religious edicts.

Just curious- why is it that they should not have to follow the religious law (even though they are muslims!), though they MUST follow the secular law (which will only incur the Anger of Allah)?

Is there a certain difference that makes the secular law superior to the religious law?

[AHMED_GUREY]

Rav

Its called the "AK-47"

Studies show, that when one points the loaded "AK-47" at another person, they are able to exert tremendous amounts of control over the person.

The name for this is called being at "Gun Point".

Non sequitur!

the founders of this movement were the community leaders they didn't need an AK-47 to controll their subjects

the ones that went through the barrel of the ICU gun were the Warlords and the ones that were forced to leave at gun point were the Islamic Courts who did not want to bring the Government and it's foreign terrorist allies careless onslaught on the Mogadishu and Kismayo residents hence the reason why they left so suddenly

[rav]

Just curious- why is it that they should not have to follow the religious law (even though they are muslims!), though they MUST follow the secular law (which will only incur the Anger of Allah)?

Is there a certain difference that makes the secular law superior to the religious law?

There is no difference that I can think of other, than the allowance of each faith to follow what they choose instead of being put under a status by a goverment that judges other religions based on the majority religions scripture which is indeed unfair.

Non sequitur!

the founders of this movement were the community leaders they didn't need an AK-47 to controll their subjects

the ones that went through the barrel of the ICU gun were the Warlords and the ones that were forced to leave at gun point were the Islamic Courts who did not want to bring the Government and it's foreign terrorist allies careless onslaught on the Mogadishu and Kismayo residents hence the reason why they left so suddenly

Oh really? So, your telling me that the ICU never used weapons to enforce there poilcies on the Somali population? :rollseyes

[Skillganon]

There is no difference that I can think of other, than the allowance of each faith to follow what they choose instead of being put under a status by a goverment that judges other religions based on the majority religions scripture which is indeed unfair.

Given that they are muslims and in somalia majority and by that approx 98%. The Law is Islam. Their is freedom of other faith to follow their religion.

[habiibti]

Somalia was a secular country all their lives till 1980`s ,even tho 99% of da people were muslims.After da war in 1990-91 did many people start practising da religion.So having them live under da warlords and da UIC,most of them realised they preffered da sharia as their law but da enemy of islam wont let them have their poor country on their own.
If da government thinks da people want them and preffer them,why dont they ask for a election so da people can finally decide whom they want.

I pray Allah gives strength to those muslims who live under constant fear everyday,May Allah give them sabr,peace and make jannah their home insha Allah ameen.

[AHMED_GUREY]

Why not? The religious can still follow and live the way they lived before, while not imposing their lifestyle on those who do not wish to follow their religious edicts.

that doesn't make sense so let me get this straight: if a Government in the west decided hard drugs or any other thing that has a negative backlash on the society there governing were to be made legal are you saying the parents who want the best for their children should look the other way and allow their sons and daughters to be sucked into addiction and a life of illness?

Oh really? So, your telling me that the ICU never used weapons to enforce there poilcies on the Somali population? :rollseyes

i don't think the catch frase Freeze police! would have that much effect on the western population if the frase wasn't accompanied by a Glock

there is nothing wrong with banning cinema's owned by shady immoral characters who could careless if a young child were to see a movie that's not of his age category or better yet a disgusting movie that's strongly oppossed and disliked by the community leaders of the society in question

if Western countries are praised when they ban khat why criticize community elders who want the same for their people by getting rid of this drug

[Skillganon]

The reason behind the event in somalia is not because of banning khat and e.t.c the argument the propose.

It is their clear enmity towards Islam the believers and their desire to carry out the commandment of Allah(s.w.t).

[AHMED_GUREY]

The reason behind the event in somalia is not because of banning khat and e.t.c the argument the propose.

It is their clear enmity towards Islam the believers and their desire to carry out the commandment of Allah(s.w.t).

I know brother but these are usually the points presented in discussions or articles to discredit the homegrown movement

the moment Islam began to echo in East Africa Somalia's christian neighbours were all gathered to contain it

[Skillganon]

I know brother but these are usually the points presented in discussions or articles to discredit the homegrown movement

the moment Islam began to echo in East Africa Somalia's christian neighbours were all gathered to contain it

It's not just certain neighbouring country but the boys in washington has a hand in it.

[AHMED_GUREY]

It's not just certain neighbouring country but the boys in washington has a hand in it.

They did the gathering :)

[rav]

Somalia was a secular country all their lives till 1980`s ,even tho 99% of da people were muslims.After da war in 1990-91 did many people start practising da religion.So having them live under da warlords and da UIC,most of them realised they preffered da sharia as their law but da enemy of islam wont let them have their poor country on their own.
If da government thinks da people want them and preffer them,why dont they ask for a election so da people can finally decide whom they want.

I pray Allah gives strength to those muslims who live under constant fear everyday,May Allah give them sabr,peace and make jannah their home insha Allah ameen.

So because one is a Muslims that person automatically has the life desire to be in a Sharia run Goverment? I think your making a huge assumption.

This is a minor set-back for the Mujaahideen, the land of Islaam will become a graveyard for those who invade it. Alhaamdulilaah the Islaamic courts brought peace and stability to this land for the first time in decades, and they will not rest until they again raise the flag of 'laa ilaahaa ilaal laa' in Mogadishu and across Somalia.

The fact that the ICU is being obliterated as we speak is a minor set back?

that doesn't make sense so let me get this straight: if a Government in the west decided hard drugs or any other thing that has a negative backlash on the society there governing were to be made legal are you saying the parents who want the best for their children should look the other way and allow their sons and daughters to be sucked into addiction and a life of illness?

Your analogy is irrelevant. There are bad drugs available in western society like a cigarette. It is a persons choice if they wish to use them or not. There is also I must point out a huge difference between drugs and religion. So the comparison you make cannot really be taken seriously.

if Western countries are praised when they ban khat why criticize community elders who want the same for their people by getting rid of this drug

Are you really making the comparison between drugs in the western world being the same as free thought in the Islamic world?

[habiibti]

Rav to answer ur questions,yes. I dont know if ur familiar with it but islam is a way of life.There is a guideline for everything we do be it social or political.And a muslim shouldnt have a problem with Allahs laws.

I believe majority of Somalis wouldnt mind living in an islamic state.

[FBI]

Rav to answer ur questions,yes. I dont know if ur familiar with it but islam is a way of life.There is a guideline for everything we do be it social or political.And a muslim shouldnt have a problem with Allahs laws.

I believe majority of Somalis wouldnt mind living in an islamic state.

:sl:

Exactly it's just some Khat chewing munafiqs that seem to have a problem if they don't want allah's law they can move to kafir Lands.

[rav]

Rav to answer ur questions,yes. I dont know if ur familiar with it but islam is a way of life.There is a guideline for everything we do be it social or political.And a muslim shouldnt have a problem with Allahs laws.

I believe majority of Somalis wouldnt mind living in an islamic state.

Judaism is a way of life as well, but in no way does the majority of views respect the laws or live according to Jewish law.

Exactly it's just some Khat chewing munafiqs that seem to have a problem if they don't want allah's law they can move to kafir Lands.

Or they may possibly say, if some Muslim wishes to follow Sharia then they should move to Iran or islamic lands... Hmmm...

[sameer]

Ameen

ameen

[AHMED_GUREY]

Your analogy is irrelevant. There are bad drugs available in western society like a cigarette.

you fail to process my analogy,listen in Somalia there is no such thing as cocaine and heroine but in the west there is and these hard drugs are shunned up on by traditional western families that have morals and values because they have a negative side effect, no sane western mother would allow her daughter or son to be sucked into something as negative as hard drugs even if the Government gave those young kids the choice to engage in it these parents would not sit back,this feeling these western families would have if it was made legal is equivalant to the feelings Somali families and community elders have today in Somalia when X-rated movies are shown AK-47 are sold at low prices and other negative things are being done in their communities, you need to understand this is the worst thing that can happen to a religious community and has the same negative effect as hard drugs would have in a western community, for a decade this non-islamic lifestyle destroyed families,women,children,elders etc etc and therefore your advice of them just sitting back and let more of their kids be sucked in is illogical:)

There is also I must point out a huge difference between drugs and religion. So the comparison you make cannot really be taken seriously.

"O You who believe, intoxicants, gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations of the devil; you shall avoid them , that you may succeed." Qur’an (5:90)

They ask you about intoxicants and gambling: say, "In them there is a gross sin, and some benefits for the people, ( alcohol in medicine for example, cocaine in anesthesia and pain medications) But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit. ........" Qur’an (2:219)

but again you fail to process my point this about the values of a community who want the best for their children but they are being hi-jacked by the so-called representing Powers and all the things that are shunned upon are being allowed in disguise of something else wich you call ''freedom'' or ''democracy''

Are you really making the comparison between drugs in the western world being the same as free thought in the Islamic world?

again you fail to process my point this about the values of a community who want the best for their children but they are being hi-jacked by the so-called representing Powers and all the things that are shunned upon are being allowed in disguise of something else wich you call ''freedom''

[Abu Zakariya]

People seem to forget what state Somalia was in before the ICU got control over the country.
They say that the ICU "terrified" them into submission, but they don't mention that what this actually means is that crime went down and people were safe again (they terrified the criminals and bandits). Also, the airport was opened again (after having been closed for a decade) as well as the docks so people could do their business with the ships.
Take a look at this article (from the BBC):
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...h-somalia.html

And some of the arguments here are ridiculous:

Are you really making the comparison between drugs in the western world being the same as free thought in the Islamic world?

The drugs were forbidden by the ICU, nobody said anything about forbidding free thought. In fact (from the article):

Questions then flowed thick and fast from other women.

"Will you allow women to work in the media? Are you the Taleban?"

A known moderate, Mr Ahmed sought to allay their fears: the Islamists, he said, did not want to stop women working.

"Actually, I am happy a woman is asking this question - at a university campus," he said.

How somebody can turn a ban on drugs into a ban on free thought is beyond me.
By the way, as a Jew, how do you feel about ban on free thought in Israel? Is it allowed to deny the Holocaust there?

[rav]

How somebody can turn a ban on drugs into a ban on free thought is beyond me.

I did not say that, you misunderstood my post. Someone was saying the USA bans bad drugs which is the same as Somalia banning what you can listen to.

By the way, as a Jew, how do you feel about ban on free thought in Israel? Is it allowed to deny the Holocaust there?

Of course Israel is banning free thought in this situation, but as a supporter of the Arab rights to ban free thought in Muslim countries which occurs about one thousand times more, I would not use that as an argument.

Please, elaborate on why it is a crime say Muhammod was false in Saudi Arabia.

Same thing.

But that is off topic, and I do not intend on getting into a religious debate or insulting anothers faith.

[Abu Zakariya]

I did not say that, you misunderstood my post. Someone was saying the USA bans bad drugs which is the same as Somalia banning what you can listen to.

You quoted that person, so I know what was being said. Khat isn't music, its drugs.

Of course Israel is banning free thought in this situation, but as a supporter of the Arab rights to ban free thought in Muslim countries which occurs about one thousand times more, I would not use that as an argument.

But why did you use that argument? That's hipocrisy. I'm not using that argument, I'm just pointing out your hipocrisy. If you support the ban on free thought in Israel, you aren't in a position to criticize other countries for doing the same.

Same thing.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. It's the same thing, so why bring that up?

[rav]

But why did you use that argument? That's hipocrisy. I'm not using that argument, I'm just pointing out your hipocrisy. If you support the ban on free thought in Israel, you aren't in a position to criticize other countries for doing the same.

No it is far from it. When did I mention I support Holocaust denial laws in Israel? Are you making assumptions?

[skhalid]

May Allah(s.w.t) Grant victory to the believers against the munafiq and those who take the unbelievers as their lords and protectors. Ameen.

Aaamin...we are all praying ....especially for peace in the world!!!

[Abu Zakariya]

No it is far from it. When did I mention I support Holocaust denial laws in Israel? Are you making assumptions?

Yes, I made an assumption. But only after asking you and not not having gotten an answer. But still, I shouldn't have assumed anything, you're right. I'm sorry. I guess you don't support the ban on free thought in Israel?

By the way, you made an assumption about me as well.

[rav]

Yes, I made an assumption. But only after asking you and not not having gotten an answer. But still, I shouldn't have assumed anything, you're right. I'm sorry. I guess you don't support the ban on free thought in Israel?

By the way, you made an assumption about me as well.

I'm not the biggest supporter of Israel's policies anyway. It is run by a secular entity and acts sometimes as an oppressor, forgetting the days we were oppressed. Now this does not mean Israel is wrong at all, or any more accountable than the Palestinians or Arab world in general who have continually refused to recognize Jewish existence in Israel, and have subsequently attacked Israel many times.

Therefore, I view Israel strictly within the context of Jewish law.

Israel should respond to attacks against it, but should always act with higher morality, then its enemies, because the enemies of Israel show no morals in battle and Israel should defeat them with morality as its largest weapon. For the Jews are commanded to be moral, and we should always act morally superior to our enemies.

Holocaust denial laws are a very tough subject. The Holocaust happend, it is fact, millions upon millions of Jews were led to gas chambers to die and never see their families. The survivors went back to find their houses taken by their non-jewish neighbors, many were slughtered by resident of towns after surving years of death camps as slaves with little food in freezing weather. A perfect example of ingorance is nothing was done as the bodies were burn into ashes and many of these camps were over looked by Polish towns. Here is an example of what happend to the Jewish corpses after being killed:

They were burn into ash. This ash is still there and in a dome a mountain of it is saved as a rememberance:

So now I must as this question. Should it be against the law to deny facts? No matter how disgsting it is, should denial of a fact be against the law? My answer is probably no. It could hurt many feelings, but in reality, we cannot lower ourselves to the opression Germany and most of Europe was under during Nazi reign. This was the kind of censership they had, and we should not have it, although I am not sure if we could seriously compare Nazi censorship, to Europe and Israel's censorship to denying a fact because how emotional and terrible it was and how many survivors and children of them there are that lost all of their family.

I still stand by my opinion though.

Yes, these are pictures I took when I visited the place over 50 of my family members died, and the place my grandfather refuses to and will never go back.

[Abu Zakariya]

I do know how painful these things can be. My father was taken to a camp and tortured by the Serbs simply for being Muslim and I've lost family members in the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, so I know, on a personal note, how one feels when somebody denies or even justifies these kind of things. So I want to make it clear that I haven't questioned the Holocaust. I do, of course, believe it happened.
What I'm saying is, the Western countries that send people in prison for simply denying something shouldn't be criticizing other countries for restricting certain aspects of freedom of speech, since they do it themselves.

[rav]

I do know how painful these things can be. My father was taken to a camp and tortured by the Serbs simply for being Muslim and I've lost family members in the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, so I know, on a personal note, how one feels when somebody denies or even justifies these kind of things. So I want to make it clear that I haven't questioned the Holocaust. I do, of course, believe it happened.
What I'm saying is, the Western countries that send people in prison for simply denying something shouldn't be criticizing other countries for restricting certain aspects of freedom of speech, since they do it themselves.

Good Post.