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Hijrah
01-03-2007, 01:11 PM
I would love it if some of these points can be refuted:

Being illiterate - unable to read and write, and producing a Qur’an which is a miracle, is absolutely hogwash. The evidence from the ahadith shows that Muhammad could read and write.

Narrated Said bin Jubair:

that he heard Ibn 'Abbas saying, "Thursday! And you know not what Thursday is? After that Ibn 'Abbas wept till the stones on the ground were soaked with his tears. On that I asked Ibn 'Abbas, "What is (about) Thursday?" He said, "When the condition (i.e. health) of Allah's Apostle deteriorated, he said, 'Bring me a bone of scapula, so that I may write something for you after which you will never go astray.'The people differed in their opinions although it was improper to differ in front of a prophet, They said, 'What is wrong with him? Do you think he is delirious? Ask him (to understand). The Prophet replied, 'Leave me as I am in a better state than what you are asking me to do.' Then the Prophet ordered them to do three things saying, 'Turn out all the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula, show respect to all foreign delegates by giving them gifts as I used to do.' " The sub-narrator added, "The third order was something beneficial which either Ibn 'Abbas did not mention or he mentioned but I forgot.' (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number393)



Narrated Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:

Ibn Abbas said, "When Allah's Apostle was on his deathbed and there were some men in the house, he said, 'Come near, I will write for you something after which you will not go astray.' Some of them ( i.e. his companions) said, 'Allah's Apostle is seriously ill and you have the (Holy) Quran. Allah's Book is sufficient for us.' So the people in the house differed and started disputing. Some of them said, 'Give him writing material so that he may write for you something after which you will not go astray.' while the others said the other way round. So when their talk and differences increased, Allah's Apostle said, "Get up." Ibn Abbas used to say, "No doubt, it was very unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing for them that writing because of their differences and noise." (Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 717)


In the following hadith, Prophet Muhammad spelled the word between the eyes of the Dajjal the Anti-Christ, where every Muslim could read. – What an amazing and a powerful feat.

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Dajjal is blind of one eye and there is written between his eyes the word" Kafir". He then spelled the word as k. f. r., which every Muslim would be able to read. . (Sahih Muslim Book 41, Number 7009)


Narrated Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu'minin:

Shahr ibn Hawshab said: I asked Umm Salamah: How did the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) read this verse: "For his conduct is unrighteous (innahu 'amalun ghayru salih". She replied: He read it: "He acted unrighteously" (innahu 'amila ghayra salih). (Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 30, Number3972)


Narrated Ubayy ibn Ka'b:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) read the Qur'anic verse: "Thou hast received (full) excuse from me (min ladunni)" and put tashdid (doubling of consonants) on nun (n). (Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 30, Number3974)


Narrated Ibn al-Musayyab:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), AbuBakr, Umar and Uthman used to read "maliki yawmid-din (master of the Day of Judgment)". The first to read maliki yawmid-din was Marwan. (Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 30, Number3989)


The so called miracle of the Qur’an and the idea that Muhammad was an unlettered Prophet is completely crushed to the ground by the above ahadith, which proves he could read and write.
-----


MODERTOR'S COMMENT: A FEW POINTS TO KEEP IN MIND BROTHER HIJRAH.

FIRST, ISSUES ARE TO BE RAISED ONE AT A TIME TO FACILITATE THEIR ELABORATE RESPONSE; HURLING DOZENS OF FRAGILE ALLEGATIONS TOGETHER IN THE HOPES THAT ONE'S OPPONENT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO GIVE EACH DUE ATTENTION AND DETAIL IS A COMMON TACTIC OF ANTI-ISLAMISTS.

SECOND, AVOID COPY-PASTING FROM OTHER ANTI-ISLAMISTS - INSTEAD, IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ON A SUBJECT ASK IN YOUR OWN WORDS. THIS PREVENTS THE DISCUSSION FROM DETERIORATING INTO A FOCUS ON THE PERSONALITY, ATTITUDE AND FALLACIES OF A SPECIFIC PERSON. OUR FOCUS IS ON DEBUNKING THE MISCONCEPTIONS THEMSELVES, NOT RESPONDING TO THE WORDS OF SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS.

INSHA'ALLAH, MY RESPONSE TO YOUR POST WILL BE FOUND BELOW.
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
01-03-2007, 02:01 PM
:sl:

Ive read refutations of the other points but I cant seem to find them, but I think this might be of some help Insha'Allah

The challenge to produce a Sura-like-it, was met by many people across various time frames.

The Poet Al-Haseen Ibn Hamam, who died in the year 611 A.D., mentioned in his poetry the scales by which the deeds of men will be weighed in the day of judgment. The same wording was mentioned in the Qur’an in Surat Al-Araf 7:8,9 . (Labib Mikhail, 121)

The Poet Roba Ibn Al-Ajaj wrote something very similar to Surat Al-Fil . (Islamic Caliphate, 60-71)

Even the controversial Suras like Surah al-Nurayn and Surah al-Walayah which are now considered forgeries. These Suras were created 200-300 years back from the current time. It proves that the challenges to create Sura-Like-It were met and have been produced.

At the current time, there are people who have taken the challenge, in spite of various Islamic scholars demanding the AOL website be closed. It is now being hosted on a different web site. (anti-islamic link) but it is called sura-like-it) The authors have produced and met the challenges.

The biggest question is “Who is going to be a fair judge?” The orthodox Muslims will send out a fatwa for beheading or declare the Sura-Like-It as “rubbish and not worthy of any standard”. That's why Ali Dashti honestly stated that "Neither the Qur'an's eloquence nor its moral and legal precepts are miraculous."

Therefore Eloquence and Authenticity of Qur’an does not prove Muhammad as a True Prophet
The person is ignorant on what the challange itself means. The challange is not simply producing a few verses with the eloquence of the Quran, some of these people's poetry is hilarious. To be compatible with the Quran it has to be:
  • Same literery eloquence and perfection
  • Has to be of the same weight of the Quran in terms of people that have memorized it for it to be even comparable to the Quran.
  • It has to last the same time as the Quran with it being memorized just as much. Something that can never be done.
Here are some quotes of the inimitability of the Quran by known orientalists:
That the best of Arab writers has never succeeded in producing anything equal in merit to the Qur'an itself is not surprising. In the first place, they have agreed before-hand that it is unapproachable, and they have adopted its style as the perfect standard; any deviation from it therefore must of necessity be a defect. Again, with them this style is not spontaneous as with Muhammad and his contemporaries, but is as artificial as though Englishmen should still continue to follow Chaucer as their model, in spite of the changes which their language has undergone. With the Prophet, the style was natural, and the words were those in every-day ordinary life, while with the later Arabic authors the style is imitative and the ancient words are introduced as a literary embellishment. The natural consequence is that their attempts look laboured and unreal by the side of his impromptu and forcible eloquence
E H Palmer (Tr.), The Qur'an, 1900, Part I, Oxford at Clarendon Press, p. lv.


...the Meccans still demanded of him a miracle, and with remarkable boldness and self confidence Mohammad appealed as a supreme confirmation of his mission to the Koran itself. Like all Arabs they were the connoisseurs of language and rhetoric. Well, then if the Koran were his own composition other men could rival it. Let them produce ten verses like it. If they could not (and it is obvious that they could not), then let them accept the Koran as an outstanding evident miracle.
H A R Gibb, Islam - A Historical Survey, 1980, Oxford University Press, p. 28.
Though, to be sure, the question of the literary merit is one not to be judged on a priori grounds but in relation to the genius of Arabic language; and no man in fifteen hundred years has ever played on that deep-toned instrument with such power, such boldness, and such range of emotional effect as Mohammad did.
Ibid., p. 25.
As a literary monument the Koran thus stands by itself, a production unique to the Arabic literature, having neither forerunners nor successors in its own idiom. Muslims of all ages are united in proclaiming the inimitability not only of its contents but also of its style..... and in forcing the High Arabic idiom into the expression of new ranges of thought the Koran develops a bold and strikingly effective rhetorical prose in which all the resources of syntactical modulation are exploited with great freedom and originality.
H A R Gibb, Arabic Literature - An Introduction, 1963, Oxford at Clarendon Press, p. 36.
You can find more on that here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...acle/ijaz.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/

I think the second link is more than enough to shatter his claims.

One thing you should remember bro, is that these people are just a few ignorant individuals who have no knowledge and greater oreinalists came before them and were refuted by scholors. Islam has always been under attack and will always remain under it while other religions wont be, and that itself is a sign that Islam is the Truth because it only Truth that can be attacked as Islam has. Therefore, dont waste your time with these people, give them Daw'ah, establish the proof against them, and move on. It is better for you to spend time learning the Deen instead of being involved in these pointless debates over the internet because most of these people wont convert after hearing someone on the internet, its only a minority that will, and that minority, you wont find in anti-islamic sites.

:w:
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Hijrah
01-03-2007, 03:33 PM
This was actually posted on an Islamic Site, not an anti-Islamic one on which a christian came questioning Muhammad's (Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam) prophethood. Jazakullah for that brother, we can take this really slow, and if any of the other claims can be refuted insha'allah it would be good.

He's saying that if we can prove his prophethood, he will denounce christianity and accept islaam as well, so if there are any good links to that...
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Hijrah
01-03-2007, 04:02 PM
O and please realize that I truly do not believe any of this, I jsut don't have a good response, I'm especially stumped on the use of thos hadiths to try proving that he was actually literate
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chacha_jalebi
01-03-2007, 04:26 PM
the 1st two hadiths, he wasnt gona write it himself, he was going to ask Hadhrat Ali (ra) to write for him! and Hadhrat Umar (ra) said there isnt need to write anythin else, as the religion was complete!

also when it says bring a pen and paper, it wasnt for him, the same was said in the treaty of hudhaiybiya, when he said bring a peice a peice of paper, and the treaty of hudhaiybiya was wrote up, again by Hadhrat Ali (ra)!

and we all know the Prophet (saw) had a seal, he would use that to like authenticize the letters, thats the only known form of writing he had, all the letters were wrote by someone else and he would tel them what to write, and he would stamp the letter :D so whoeva posted that should go and do some research :p cos the shia use that hadiths and say "umar ra, didnt let Ali ra, write becuase he was scared the Prophet (saw) would ask him to write, that ali ra, would be the next khilifah"

so point proven :p 1-0 to the muslims :p :D

next point lol

produce a surah like it .....

1st of all, when they re produce the surahs, they use the real surah as a guideline, its like a essay, you have a essay plan and you use that, jus cos they use the real surah as a guideline, it dont mean they have produced a surah like it, they have jus copied it:p :D the challenge means ..

1 - produce a original surah
2 - make it hit the heart as the original surahs do
3 - erm :D produce a original surah :p:D

so they havent produced no surah like it and they never wil be able to, becuase Allah (swt) made these surahs from scratch, they are usin the surahs as guidelines, so that is jus like copyin :D


the next points are typical quotin out of context, and most of them apply to when the jews broke the treaty and RasoolAllah (saw) then asked them to be prepared for war, because the treaty was meant to be one of peace between the muslims, but wen the jews showed their true colours and were plannin on killin RasoolAllah (saW) then the they themselfs broke the treaty and had to fight it out :p :D

so i think most of the points have been refuted... brap brap :D inshallah some one more knowlegdeable then moi can add on a bit more :D :D
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Hijrah
01-03-2007, 04:53 PM
I see what you are saying, but what about the other hadiths concerning illiteracy, and spelling kaa faa raa, for the dajjal, I see what you are saying about the otehr points being quoted out of context but this isn't sufficient, I think these claims should be refuted more thoroughly than that...but I do see what your getting at.
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Hijrah
01-03-2007, 06:43 PM
One thing you should remember bro, is that these people are just a few ignorant individuals who have no knowledge and greater oreinalists came before them and were refuted by scholors. Islam has always been under attack and will always remain under it while other religions wont be, and that itself is a sign that Islam is the Truth because it only Truth that can be attacked as Islam has. Therefore, dont waste your time with these people, give them Daw'ah, establish the proof against them, and move on. It is better for you to spend time learning the Deen instead of being involved in these pointless debates over the internet because most of these people wont convert after hearing someone on the internet, its only a minority that will, and that minority, you wont find in anti-islamic sites.
:cry: It just disturbs me though and makes me sad, what is being said, if his points can be refuted I would feel much better about it..
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Ansar Al-'Adl
01-08-2007, 06:42 AM
:sl: br. Hijrah,

Please see the comments I have inserted into your post.

This post will answer the relevant quotations on the subject of illiteracy; the other issues have again been answered throughout the forum in threads such as the following:
http://www.islamicboard.com/448697-post6.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/99852-post3.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/176538-post11.html

On to the quotations...
He said, "When the condition (i.e. health) of Allah's Apostle deteriorated, he said, 'Bring me a bone of scapula, so that I may write something for you after which you will never go astray.'The people differed in their opinions although it was improper to differ in front of a prophet, They said, 'What is wrong with him? Do you think he is delirious? Ask him (to understand). The Prophet replied, 'Leave me as I am in a better state than what you are asking me to do.' [...]

Ibn Abbas said, "When Allah's Apostle was on his deathbed and there were some men in the house, he said, 'Come near, I will write for you something after which you will not go astray.' Some of them ( i.e. his companions) said, 'Allah's Apostle is seriously ill and you have the (Holy) Quran. Allah's Book is sufficient for us.' So the people in the house differed and started disputing. Some of them said, 'Give him writing material so that he may write for you something after which you will not go astray.' while the others said the other way round. So when their talk and differences increased, Allah's Apostle said, "Get up." Ibn Abbas used to say, "No doubt, it was very unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing for them that writing because of their differences and noise." (Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 717)
Q. When Muhammad was on his death bed he called for writing instruments so that he could write some final instructions. If he could not write, why did he ask for such materials?
A. Most officials write through secretaries. When such an official calls for writing instruments he intends for his secretaries to write. When he says, "I will write to you" he means, "I will dictate a letter to you; my secretaries will write it, or type it." The fact that the prophet called for writing instruments does not prove that he was literate.
islaminfo.com

In the following hadith, Prophet Muhammad spelled the word between the eyes of the Dajjal the Anti-Christ, where every Muslim could read. – What an amazing and a powerful feat.

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Dajjal is blind of one eye and there is written between his eyes the word" Kafir". He then spelled the word as k. f. r., which every Muslim would be able to read. . (Sahih Muslim Book 41, Number 7009)
Mentioning the three letters root: "ka fa ra" does not prove literacy as it neither entails reading nor writing!

The next few examples are just blatant examples of ignorance on the critic as they clearly demonstrate that he has not the slightest clue as to what the Islamic texts mean that he is reading:
Shahr ibn Hawshab said: I asked Umm Salamah: How did the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) read this verse: "For his conduct is unrighteous (innahu 'amalun ghayru salih". She replied: He read it: "He acted unrighteously" (innahu 'amila ghayra salih). (Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 30, Number3972)


Narrated Ubayy ibn Ka'b:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) read the Qur'anic verse: "Thou hast received (full) excuse from me (min ladunni)" and put tashdid (doubling of consonants) on nun (n). (Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 30, Number3974)


Narrated Ibn al-Musayyab:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), AbuBakr, Umar and Uthman used to read "maliki yawmid-din (master of the Day of Judgment)". The first to read maliki yawmid-din was Marwan. (Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 30, Number3989)
For Muslims it is patently obvious that the Qira'at or recitation of the Qur'an is being spoken of here. Muslims use the words 'read' and 'recite' interchangeably in connection to the Qur'an. So these quotes merely narrate how the prophet recited, pronounced and enunciated certain verses (tajweed). In fact, the second last quote is explicit in this regard as it even mentions his reciting with the shadda (tashdid) on the noon, but of course this would all be lost to one who is not familiar with the Muslim tradition of reciting the Qur'an according to specific tajweed rules.

Another hadith that is sometimes mentioned is the one I have answered here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/303605-post24.html


:w:
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