Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque

[sonz]

The Cordoba Mosque, now a Unesco world heritage site, was turned into a Catholic cathedral in the 13th century after the southern Spanish city, once the capital of Moorish Spain, was taken from the Muslims by the Christians in the war to oust the Moors from the Iberian peninsula and re-establish Christianity in Spain.

The mosque was built when Spain was the Moorish territory of Al-Andalus, and was promoted as the third holiest Islamic site after the Ka’aba in the Saudi Arabian holy city of Mecca, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem.

The fabulous mosque pays tribute to the architectural and artistic achievements of Muslim Spain, which is also regarded as a beacon of science and scholarship in 10th-century Europe.

Cordoba residents still call the building “mezquita" (mosque), though it has been used as a Catholic cathedral since the city was conquered by King Ferdinand III.

Now, the building has taken the shape of Catholic churches, with choir stall and chapels built inside it, mingling with Islamic features such as the prayer niche, or the mihrab.

Spain's Islamic Board, which represents a community of some 800,000 in a traditional Catholic country of 44 million, challenges the Catholic Church’s exclusive use of the building, arguing that the site is a heritage of Arab-Berber-Spanish Moors, who ruled large parts of Spain for some 800 years and for whom emir Abd ar-Rahman I built the mosque in the 8th century.

Mansur Escudero, a Muslim convert who heads Spain's Islamic Board, recently prayed in front of the mosque to assert Muslims' right to use it for prayer.

The board has asked Pope Benedict XVI in a letter to turn the mosque into an ecumenical temple where believers of all faiths could worship, arguing that such a move could "awake the conscience" of Christians and Muslims and help bury past confrontations.

"What we wanted was not to take over that holy place, but to create in it, together with you and other faiths, an ecumenical space unique in the world which would have been of great significance in bringing peace to humanity," the letter said.

The board also sent a similar letter to Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero.

But the Roman Catholic bishop of Cordoba rejected the Muslims’ appeal, claiming that the joint use of places of worships would generate confusion amongst the faithful.

Muslim leaders disagree with Bishop Juan Jose Asenjo’s view.

The mosque, a building with an "enormous symbolic power," could show the way for a "universal spirituality," Audalla Conget, secretary of the Islamic Board, told the Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa in an interview.

"Spain could be the key that opens the door to peace," he says, recalling the Moorish period when Christians, Muslims and Jews lived in relative harmony.

The Vatican has rejected earlier petitions by Muslims to pray at the Cordoba mosque, but Conget hoped that Pope Benedict XVI would have a more favorable attitude.

The Cordoba bishop's negative answer contradicts with the "interesting gestures" by the Pope, such as praying at an Istanbul mosque, Conget said.

-- AJP and Agencies

[rav]

Are you saying there are no Mosques built on a site that was home to a Jewish or Christian site? Since we know there are, would you concede to allowing other religions pray at your sites which were built on the former sites of others?

[- Qatada -]

Are you saying there are no Mosques built on a site that was home to a Jewish or Christian site? Since we know there are, would you concede to allowing other religions pray at your sites which were built on the former sites of others?

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) allowed the Christians of Najraan to pray in his mosque, facing towards their “qiblah” (direction of prayer).

End quote from Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah, 2/819-823.

Extracted from IslamQA



Peace.

[rav]

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) allowed the Christians of Najraan to pray in his mosque, facing towards their “qiblah” (direction of prayer).

End quote from Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah, 2/819-823.

Extracted from IslamQA



Peace.

Did he allow Jews that same right? And if so, why do Muslims not follow the lead of their prophet now and let other religions pray at the places that mosques are built on now but were once shuls, or churches.

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[MTAFFI]

What I dont understand is why do these people think they have a right to something that hasnt been theirs for some 700 years? I mean really this building has been a cathedral for the better part of a millenium and these people are still wanting to have some right to it. I personally think it is just another way to make Muslims feel like they are being persecuted. I am not trying to offend anyone, although i am sure i will, but the more i read and the more i see on the news the more i think islam is a religion for crybabies :cry: and trouble starters :raging:. Every week it is something else "Oh, someone is taking our land" or "Oh that was our mosque 700 years ago" or "Lets go throw a violent protest because some idiot drew pictures of our prophet". It seems to me Muslims are always just looking for a way to start something with someone else, whether it be some crazy conspiracy theory (that i read at least once on this site everyday) or it be someone offended them or didnt give what they want. Then it is everyone elses fault, how about take a look at yourself.

My point is everything is not yours and not everyone cares about what you think is sacred or even what is against your beliefs and religion. This is something that Muslims and Islam must deal with in order to live in society today. Do you really think Allah cares where you pray? :? Probably not, he is probably just happy you pray at all. Stop making a big deal out of everything and just be happy with what you got, it isnt like this is where you will spend the rest of eternity anyways, so what do you care about land or buildings. Really you will only exist for a blink of an eye.

[Goku]

The Muslims of Turkey turned the Sofia Mosque in Istanbul (formally Constantinople), which used to be a church before being converted into a Mosque, into a Museum. Muslims took into consideration the feelings of Christians. It seems the Spanish Christians in this case arent willing to consider the feelings of Muslims. But Im not certain know how significant the cathedral is for Christians and Muslims.

[- Qatada -]

Did he allow Jews that same right? And if so, why do Muslims not follow the lead of their prophet now and let other religions pray at the places that mosques are built on now but were once shuls, or churches.

He may have, i don't know of much ahadith so i can't say. Maybe you could do a search on that.

Anyway, at the bottom of the article it also mentions:

The Cordoba bishop's negative answer contradicts with the "interesting gestures" by the Pope, such as praying at an Istanbul mosque, Conget said.

So the muslims may have allowed the pope to pray in the istanbul masjid. And anyway, even if they don't let him - if the prophet (peace be upon him) allowed it, then why should we compare todays muslims to the prophet himself? We follow his example.




MTAFFI. We don't cry to you, and we don't complain to the disbelievers. We complain to Allaah, the Lord of the worlds. Allaah has power over all things, and because we've spent too much time straying away from the religion of Allaah, He has placed us in this position of humiliation so that we may turn back to Him. What better time is there to turn back to Allaah except at times of hardship?

Have you actually checked up on the rulings regarding the issues such as the violent protests? Have you found any trustworthy scholar saying that we should take back the masjid back by force? We will gain them back by the will of Allaah, and if you just going to follow what the media tells you, then you have the right to do that, but if you've ever seen an event in real life, then you'll know that the media isn't always telling the truth.


In the end, we will return back to Allaah and be judged on all that we did.




Peace.

[MTAFFI]

MTAFFI. We don't cry to you, and we don't complain to the disbelievers. We complain to Allaah, the Lord of the worlds. Allaah has power over all things, and because we've spent too much time straying away from the religion of Allaah, He has placed us in this position of humiliation so that we may turn back to Him. What better time is there to turn back to Allaah except at times of hardship?

To this I say if you are crying and complaining to Allah then why does the world hear about it on a daily basis? You dont hear Christians talking about their injustices or creating controversy or 700 year old buildings that do not belong to them.

Have you actually checked up on the rulings regarding the issues such as the violent protests? Have you found any trustworthy scholar saying that we should take back the masjid back by force?

I have had no need to check on the violent protests anymore, however when that was going on there was a death toll, so as far as I am concerned the people involved for simple minded barbarians who cannot control themselves. Those protests carried on for days, there were deaths and destruction.

I never said anyone would take it back with force, I simply said they should be asking for it back at all.

We will gain them back by the will of Allaah, and if you just going to follow what the media tells you, then you have the right to do that, but if you've ever seen an event in real life, then you'll know that the media isn't always telling the truth.

I agree with this and i do not believe everything the media tells me but I also do not believe that everything is fabricated and that there is some man behind it shaping the way I view things. I have been a lot of places in this world and seen a lot of people and cultures. I have never been in the middle of a violent protest but to me seeing it on the news is just as good. Watching thousands of people chant "Death to America" is proof enough for me to believe that when the media shows certain Muslims shooting and throwing things at US embassies, it probably isnt just made up.

In the end, we will return back to Allaah and be judged on all that we did.
Peace.

I agree

PEACE

[- Qatada -]

To this I say if you are crying and complaining to Allah then why does the world hear about it on a daily basis? You dont hear Christians talking about their injustices or creating controversy or 700 year old buildings that do not belong to them.

Maybe because their not labelled christians? Maybe their just labelled under another title? Whereas when muslims do something, its; MUSLIM TERRORIST? or ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS?

I have had no need to check on the violent protests anymore, however when that was going on there was a death toll, so as far as I am concerned the people involved for simple minded barbarians who cannot control themselves. Those protests carried on for days, there were deaths and destruction.

I asked if any trustworthy scholars agreed to the violence? :)

I never said anyone would take it back with force, I simply said they should be asking for it back at all.

They have the right to ask.

I agree with this and i do not believe everything the media tells me but I also do not believe that everything is fabricated and that there is some man behind it shaping the way I view things. I have been a lot of places in this world and seen a lot of people and cultures. I have never been in the middle of a violent protest but to me seeing it on the news is just as good. Watching thousands of people chant "Death to America" is proof enough for me to believe that when the media shows certain Muslims shooting and throwing things at US embassies, it probably isnt just made up.

Yeah, but the media is owned by a certain authority who may allow some things to be shown, highlighted more than others etc. I believe that, and i see alot of propaganda against our faith.




Peace.

[sudais1]

MTAFFI we don't wake up one morning and say "hey lets cause problems, lets chant the destruction of a country" Muslims are being attacked in every way possible, verbally, mentally, and physically. Its of Human nature in which we retaliate to these attacks. When we do attack you say we are terrorist. Now what about Israel, Britain, and USA. "Oh no there strong countries so they can't be terrorists but these less stronger countries in the Muslim world are terrorists because they seem to be attacking us". How many regular Muslims walk down the streets and are chanted at "death to Islam". Imagine some people drew Jesus naked with these women and it was made a whole joke (not is the Muslim world because we believe in him and you guys believe his god). I'm pretty sure you would be pissed. But wait This insult comes at a time in which you are being attacked everyday. People especially like you don't see the whole picture, you take a glimpse and then come to your conclusion, when you say were whining, find why are they. Muslims have given other religions much tolerance until they came barging in on our territory. Now doesn't seem logical were fighting you because your on our land . Now doesn't seem reasonable that a country leaves their homeland and travels half-way across the world to take a countries oil. Then they blame the reason on some other thing. Does it seem okay to for one country to give many countries independence except one which they keep tormenting. Also a "new" and "illegal" country by let alone religion by there people established there state on while they take water and attack the people whom they took it from with the help of larger countries. I don't know where your thinking but When we can't fight back with strong might and the UN is reluctant to do anything. We didnt they sanction these countries yet they sanction another country who want to protect itself. Does seem proper and normal, I say Muslims are facing a humanitarian crisis. People want them out of existence ,
out of their land, out of there culture, and religion. Yet you say we always want to fight. Now does that comment seem fair :rollseyes I don't think so

[Jayda]

The Muslims of Turkey turned the Sofia Mosque in Istanbul (formally Constantinople), which used to be a church before being converted into a Mosque, into a Museum. Muslims took into consideration the feelings of Christians. It seems the Spanish Christians in this case arent willing to consider the feelings of Muslims. But Im not certain know how significant the cathedral is for Christians and Muslims.

hola Goku,

the muslims in Turkey did not convert their mosque into a museum for the sake of Christians... they did it because it represented to them an old theocratic regime they wanted to escape... the Turks are very negative toward Christians.

but this issue with the Cathedral of Cordoba is not about peoples feelings... we cannot deconsecrate a Cathedral for an impious purpose... which is what Muslims are requesting. it is a Cathedral... not a mosque, i am very frightened about the aggressive talk of a "return" of an "al andalus" or "the mosque" of Cordoba... spanish people remember muslim rule with very mixed feelings... muslims were very oppressive rulers but very sophistocated and brought good things to the spaniards... and i certainly would not exist without them, but the return of an "al andalus" just like the first time is not a welcome thing to spaniards and so it means invasion, and that scares me very much...

it is time muslims accept the world they live in... there is no mosque of cordoba, there is no al andalus... please do not push this any further.

He may have, i don't know of much ahadith so i can't say. Maybe you could do a search on that.

Anyway, at the bottom of the article it also mentions:

So the muslims may have allowed the pope to pray in the istanbul masjid. And anyway, even if they don't let him - if the prophet (peace be upon him) allowed it, then why should we compare todays muslims to the prophet himself? We follow his example.

hola Fi_Sabilillah,

please do not misinterpret the Holy Fathers actions in the mosque... he was not praying, if that were so you would have seen him cross himself... it was a moment of meditation.

Dios te bendiga

...are these threads necessary? they are redundant and lead to a lot of islamic pride & pomp which is kind of scaring me...

[- Qatada -]

Hi jayda.


It's a double sided argument, you as a christian may say that the muslim leaders were oppressive, yet it was the christians who drove out the muslims from al andalus even though it was their land. However, it was due to our own faults that Allaah placed it in the hands of someone else.

One of the reasons why they aren't allowing the muslims to pray in this masjid is due to the fact that it is a matter of pride for the christians, and i don't blame them for that.


It depends on which side of the story you see, obviously the article you linked me to was by a spanish christian, so it would be biased. So i think this arguing is pointless.



Peace.

[rav]

yet it was the christians who drove out the muslims from al andalus even though it was their land. However, it was due to our own faults that Allaah placed it in the hands of someone else.

Wait, I just did a double take. How was it your land?

[- Qatada -]

Wait, I just did a double take. How was it your land?

The same way the christians have it under their rule today.

Muslim Spain and European Culture


Peace.

[rav]

The same way the christians have it under their rule today.

Muslim Spain and European Culture


Peace.

However, In the 8th century, nearly all the Iberian peninsula was quickly conquered (I believe at that time it was under Catholic control) (711–718), by mainly Berber Muslims (see Moors), who had crossed over from North Africa. Of course I am sure the Jewish people in general did not mind because the Muslims did not convert, kill, and rape Jews like the previous Christian rulers did, and Jews were able to think their minds and pray to G-d without being persecuted by Christians during Islamic rule.

[Jayda]

Hi jayda.


It's a double sided argument, you as a christian may say that the muslim leaders were oppressive, yet it was the christians who drove out the muslims from al andalus even though it was their land. However, it was due to our own faults that Allaah placed it in the hands of someone else.

no... the muslims came from africa to conquer spain, they were not originally from there. the muslim presence was the result of a very brutal war... not God... the anger and brutality of the reconquista was the result of what happened because of what the moors did to spanish people...

One of the reasons why they aren't allowing the muslims to pray in this masjid is due to the fact that it is a matter of pride for the christians, and i don't blame them for that.

no this is not true... it is canon law... churches may not be deconsecrated for an impious purpose unless it is beyond repair...

It depends on which side of the story you see, obviously the article you linked me to was by a spanish christian, so it would be biased. So i think this arguing is pointless.

why did you think it was written by a spanish person... or even a christian? the article was not about anything that was related to spain...

Peace.

i am afraid of the way you talk... it is like you do not believe muslim oppression can ever be a bad thing, and you talk about al andalus like it is some kind of religious duty... why do you say peace when you say things like this...

[Erundur]

the anger and brutality of the reconquista was the result of what happened because of what the moors did to spanish people...

Do you have a link or some kind of statement for this?

[Fishman]

:sl:
If I was in power I would give the Christians the Haiga Sophia in Istanbul in exchange for this Masjid in Spain. It was built as a Masjid, and that is what it should be. The authorities should at least allow Muslims to pray there, given it's Islamic significance.
:w:

[Jayda]

Do you have a link or some kind of statement for this?

no it is just something self evident... the anger spanish people felt toward the muslims because of what they did resulted in terrible mistreatment when spain returned to the spanish again... the jews were mistreated too since they were viewed as collaborators...

[Jayda]

:sl:
If I was in power I would give the Christians the Haiga Sophia in Istanbul in exchange for this Masjid in Spain. It was built as a Masjid, and that is what it should be. The authorities should at least allow Muslims to pray there, given it's Islamic significance.
:w:

hola Fishman,

i do not think these things are meant to be traded like cards... the hagia sophia belongs to the turks... they conquered istanbul so it is theirs... maybe someday if they wish they may turn it into a church again but i do not believe they ever will...

the Cathedral of Cordoba belongs to the Church... it belongs to the Catholic Church and is consecrated for Catholic worship... this is the way the world is... we cant live in the 13th century...

Dios te bendiga

[- Qatada -]

no... the muslims came from africa to conquer spain, they were not originally from there. the muslim presence was the result of a very brutal war... not God... people...

The ummayads settled in spain and yes there was a constant war between the romans and the muslims. However, the muslims lived peacefully with the people who never fought against them. Including the jews and christians.

the anger and brutality of the reconquista was the result of what happened because of what the moors did to spanish

Maybe it was because of the constant struggle on who can get hold of the land?

why did you think it was written by a spanish person... or even a christian? the article was not about anything that was related to spain...

Robert Duncan is a journalist and ombudsman for foreign press in Spain. He is a board member and honorary vice-president for the Organización de Periodismo y Comunicación Ibero-Americana. Robert was the bureau chief for an international news agency in Madrid for many years, and was published regularly in Dow Jones Newswires, with articles appearing in The Wall Street Journal.

He has also been published in World Catholic News, National Catholic Register, Renew America, Lifesite.net, as well as Capital Hill Coffee House, Common Conservative, The Conservative Voice, Enter Stage Right, News By Us, Conservative Crusader, World Net Daily, Mens News Daily and others.



http://www.speroforum.com/site/artic...2C+a+prayer%3F

i am afraid of the way you talk... it is like you do not believe muslim oppression can ever be a bad thing, and you talk about al andalus like it is some kind of religious duty... why do you say peace when you say things like this...

Muslims can oppress, but islaam doesn't. This usually occurs when muslims judge according to other than the religion of Allaah.

If christians and jews pay the jizya (a small tax) in an islamic state, their blood and honor is protected, they don't have to fight to protect the state and it is only the muslims duty to do that. This is why the jews and christians lived there peacefully, and even rav agreed to this in an earlier post.



Peace.

[MTAFFI]

Maybe because their not labelled christians? Maybe their just labelled under another title? Whereas when muslims do something, its; MUSLIM TERRORIST? or ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS?

They arent labeled Christian because they arent, and really I am not sure who "they" are that you are talking about. You dont see anyone rising up and saying "I am a Catholic, and I am waging a Holy war on you" or "That mosque was a cathedral 700 years ago and we want to use it now".

It is Muslim Terrorist or Islamic extremist because the people that are terrorizing base everything they do around their religion. What should we label these people? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

I asked if any trustworthy scholars agreed to the violence? :)

GOT ME THERE... Good point, this is a step in the right direction. The more Muslims that disagree with this behaviour and make an effort to end it, the more Islam will not be associated with these radicals.

They have the right to ask.

And the Church has the right to say no... the question here is what will the response to that be

Yeah, but the media is owned by a certain authority who may allow some things to be shown, highlighted more than others etc. I believe that, and i see alot of propaganda against our faith.
Peace.

You may think that the media is owned by the government however this is totally untrue. There are government channels but if you heard some of the things that I hear on the television each day that speaks against our government you may not think the same. There are actually more things on the news that speak badly of our government than Islam, everyday "Bushs public approval is down again" or "Major changes needed in the war in Iraq" or the handling of social security or whatever. The things you speak of are highlighted because they are happening against our people, occur on a daily basis, and stem from a particular religion or following.

PEACE

[Erundur]

Edit. Fishman had a better response.
Peace.

[Fishman]

no it is just something self evident... the anger spanish people felt toward the muslims because of what they did resulted in terrible mistreatment when spain returned to the spanish again... the jews were mistreated too since they were viewed as collaborators...

:sl:
There was no forced conversion when Islam entered Spain, although there were some minor economic restrictions. Persecution began later in the Muslim rule, but conversion still was not forced. But When the Spanish came in, they forced every Muslim and Jew to leave or convert, and even mistreated those who had converted.

according to your argument, the holocaust (which was like the expulsion of the Moors on a larger scale) was justified because the Germans felt angry at the Jews. The Moors did nothing to the Spanish except take over the country, and as I said, persecution of Crhsitians began later, during the Reconquista.
:w:

[Jayda]

The ummayads settled in spain and yes there was a constant war between the romans and the muslims. However, the muslims lived peacefully with the people who never fought against them. Including the jews and christians.

what romans... spanish people are greek and gaulic... most of those living in spain were visigoth... the muslims did not settle in spain... they sent an army to conquer it, in fact their general burned their ships and made a very great speach about there being nothing behind them and that they must conquer...

Maybe it was because of the constant struggle on who can get hold of the land?

no not at all... many of the things christians did to muslims and jews were based on what was done to them... mosques were reconsecrated as churches, muslims had to pay heavy taxes and wear things that made them stand out as muslims, they created rules that if a muslim was caught preaching islam to a christian they would be killed... but this (just like the muslim rule) was meant to be a political tool to use against muslims... there are many things like this... the only thing the spaniards did not do that i am aware of is slavery...





Robert Duncan is a journalist and ombudsman for foreign press in Spain. He is a board member and honorary vice-president for the Organización de Periodismo y Comunicación Ibero-Americana. Robert was the bureau chief for an international news agency in Madrid for many years, and was published regularly in Dow Jones Newswires, with articles appearing in The Wall Street Journal.

He has also been published in World Catholic News, National Catholic Register, Renew America, Lifesite.net, as well as Capital Hill Coffee House, Common Conservative, The Conservative Voice, Enter Stage Right, News By Us, Conservative Crusader, World Net Daily, Mens News Daily and others.[/quote]

but what does him being a spaniard have to do with the Pope not praying in a mosque?

Muslims can oppress, but islaam doesn't. This usually occurs when muslims judge according to other than the religion of Allaah.

If christians and jews pay the jizya (a small tax) in an islamic state, their blood and honor is protected, they don't have to fight to protect the state and it is only the muslims duty to do that. This is why the jews and christians lived there peacefully, and even rav agreed to this in an earlier post.

this is not true... the jizya was not just a small tax, it was deliberately meant to humiliate the people paying it

and there was much more than a tax there were forced conversions, churches were not allowed to be rebuilt or repaired... that is why the original church was destroyed to make the mezquita, denying Muhammad was a prophet would mean you are executed, christians could be murdered and muslims would not be punished but christians could be accused of murdering a muslim and be killed just because of the accusation, christians could not carry weapons but had to wear distinctive clothing so that they were targets, spanish women were allowed to be taken as wives against their will... there were pogroms against christians... it was very brutal

Peace.

again i do not understand why you are saying this... none of the things you are defending or asking for are peaceful... why are you saying these things about the mistreatment of spanish people?

[Jayda]

[QUOTE]:sl:
There was no forced conversion when Islam entered Spain, although there were some minor economic restrictions. Persecution began later in the Muslim rule, but conversion still was not forced. But When the Spanish came in, they forced every Muslim and Jew to leave or convert, and even mistreated those who had converted.[quote]

hola Fishman,

there were many forced conversions under muslim rule... adn that is not the least of the things muslims did to spanish people...

according to your argument, the holocaust (which was like the expulsion of the Moors on a larger scale) was justified because the Germans felt angry at the Jews. The Moors did nothing to the Spanish except take over the country, and as I said, persecution of Crhsitians began later, during the Reconquista.
:w:

i am not talking about a justification... i am saying you can see the anger spanish people felt about what the muslims did to them in what they did in turn... and it is not like the nazis... the nazis created an illusion that the jews were responsible for everything that had happened after the war... muslims actually did invade spain and actually did abuse spanish people.

Moors did nothing to the Spanish except take over the country

this attitude scares me very much... why are you all speaking so lightly of invading people...

Dios te bendiga

[sudais1]

Jayda which book of lies did you read?

[Jayda]

Jayda which book of lies did you read?

hola sudais1

my family is originally from andalusia and tejada... but they came to mexico in the 18th century... like many andalusian families we preserve the history of our relatives through an oral tradition...

Dios te bendiga

[duskiness]

Jayda which book of lies did you read?

sorry but I don't get it....which Jayda's statments you believe to be "lies"?

Spain was CONQUERED by Muslims (North Africa also...). Nobody likes to be conquered and ruled by invaders. So I doubt they loved it.
It doesn't change a fact, that Al-Andalus was probably the most developed civilisation at that time

[Jayda]

sorry but I don't get it....which Jayda's statments you believe to be "lies"?

Spain was CONQUERED by Muslims (North Africa also...). Nobody likes to be conquered and ruled by invaders. So I doubt they loved it.
It doesn't change a fact, that Al-Andalus was probably the most developed civilisation at that time

hola duskiness,

yes... i think that is what i was trying to say before about it being a complicated subject for spanish people... because of the muslims there were no dark ages for spain, but at a terrible cost... it is not something that is "welcomed" but the benefits were undeniable... cordoba had lit streets when london was a village

Dios te bendiga

[duskiness]

cordoba had lit streets when london was a village

I know Jayda, I have seen Cordoba and its beautiful Cathedral-Mosque. Breathtaking.
Personally I have a sad feeling that this whole issue is only supporting ill feelings between Muslims and Christians. It seems we are ending one "argument" just to start another.

Pan z Toba, Jayda :)

[MTAFFI]

MTAFFI we don't wake up one morning and say "hey lets cause problems, lets chant the destruction of a country" Muslims are being attacked in every way possible, verbally, mentally, and physically. Its of Human nature in which we retaliate to these attacks.

Actually, it was Osama bin Laden who did this. The whole war with the west (regarding current affairs at least) stems from this man. Saudi Arabia requested military assistance from the US. This angered Osama and he basically said the US wasnt wanted and should leave. So even though he isnt the ruler of a country, he wanted to make a decision for a country, which was for the US not to be involved. So he began his propoganda and lead a campaign against the west. So really the west is simply retailiating to his and his followers attacks.

When we do attack you say we are terrorist. Now what about Israel, Britain, and USA. "Oh no there strong countries so they can't be terrorists but these less stronger countries in the Muslim world are terrorists because they seem to be attacking us".

We dont attack unless we are attacked. Radical Muslims have been attacking the US since the late 80's with relatively no retaliation. Now that we are doing something about it you are the victims? What about all of those you killed in the embassy bombings, etc? The people labeled as terrorists are labeled that because of their confrontational actions and words.

How many regular Muslims walk down the streets and are chanted at "death to Islam".

I have never seen this happen

Imagine some people drew Jesus naked with these women and it was made a whole joke (not is the Muslim world because we believe in him and you guys believe his god). I'm pretty sure you would be pissed. But wait This insult comes at a time in which you are being attacked everyday.

Funny you should ask, I was actually watching an episode called "Family Guy" just the other night. In case you dont know this is an adult cartoon that will say or do outrageous thing typically based on current events. It is really pretty funny. Anyways the other night i saw an episode where Jesus was calling God on a telephone in Heaven asking if he could come home. God says in response that right then just wasnt a good time for him, Jesus sadly hangs up the phone as it cuts back to God rolling back over to a pretty woman and saying "Now where were we?" It even went further to where the woman pulled out a condom and said "right about here". God replies "come on baby it is my Birthday". I have to say I just laughed it off because i know the people who make the show are idiots! I would also say that at this particular time me as an American am attacked daily.

People especially like you don't see the whole picture, you take a glimpse and then come to your conclusion, when you say were whining, find why are they.

I would bet I see more of the picture than you.

Now doesn't seem reasonable that a country leaves their homeland and travels half-way across the world to take a countries oil. Then they blame the reason on some other thing.

This is ridiculous, you let me know when we see a drop of free oil from the middle east!! lol :D I laugh everytime I see someone put this on this site. These are the types of ridiculous theories that make so many people look so dim witted. In 20 years we wont even need this oil anyways, not to mention how fast it is running out. Why would we just now go to war over this? If we wanted it for free we would have taken it 20 years ago or even 50 or 100 years ago.

Does seem proper and normal, I say Muslims are facing a humanitarian crisis. People want them out of existence ,
out of their land, out of there culture, and religion. Yet you say we always want to fight. Now does that comment seem fair :rollseyes I don't think so

You are facing a crisis. The more of your people that act out in unacceptable ways the worse the image of Islam will become, on the other hand the sooner you publicly condemn the behaviour of the ones trashing your religion and take action against them the view of Islam will be restored to what it should be. The war against Islam is not a war the US is fighting or any other nation for that matter. The war against Islam is a war against itself, there are many many people in your religion who use your religion as a reason to kill and justify their own actions, you as a people and a religion must stop this if you ever want this "crisis" to end.

Peace

[Jayda]

i think maybe everything that can be said about this topic has been said and now we are just becomming unrestled... could we perhaps drop this subject?

gracias...

[Fishman]

:sl:

hola Fishman,

there were many forced conversions under muslim rule... adn that is not the least of the things muslims did to spanish people...

My source on my comments is Wikipedia, which is a rather Islamophobic place. The truth is that whilst there may have been one or two forced conversions, there was no stake burning, no inquisition, no forced emmigration.

i am not talking about a justification... i am saying you can see the anger spanish people felt about what the muslims did to them in what they did in turn...

Again, Spanish crimes were much worse than the crimes of the Moors. There was no Moorish inquisition, the Visgoths converted slowly and under no complusion. It was not until the 11th century that Muslims outnumbered Christians in Spain.

this attitude scares me very much... why are you all speaking so lightly of invading people...

Genocide is much worse than invasion. What the Moors did was relatively slowly and peacefully replace the vishgoth culture. The Spanish viciously destroyed hundreds of years of Islamic culture in a few years. If Palestine gets it's freedom, I certainly would not want the Jewish settlers who had been born there to be kicked out.
:sl:

[duskiness]

Genocide is much worse than invasion.

But invading is still wrong, isn't it? That was - as I see it - Jayda's point. This Cathedral-Mosque is standing in a place which was pogan, Christian, Muslim and again Christian.
Just like Hagia Sophia was Christian and no longer is. We all lost something.
God gave, God took, blessed be His Name.

[Jayda]

i really think now is a good stopping point... we all know what each other thinks...

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all;

I was overjoyed to read the opening post by sonz, it seems the motivation for the Muslims to use the Cathedral would be opportunities for bridge building, peace and reconciliation between Muslims and Christian.

God owns everything, we are but temporary custodians of God’s creation. We are all created by the same God, we are bickering about something that we could share. Where is the spirit of love your neighbour as you love yourself? Where is the spirit of Christians seeking peace and reconciliation with our Muslim brothers and sisters?

It is in our hands to dare to be different, what would Christ advocate for today?

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith friendship and brotherhood,

Eric

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

And we have Eric to the rescue! Simmer the heat guys...:D

[MTAFFI]

MTAFFI your to arrogant to understand anything, if you weren't you would actually understand what's going on

i suppose i could resort to name calling and say the same to you, however i will not. I understand that this thread is about why the poor poor Muslims cant use a consecrated Cathedral, and want to make a big deal about it because it was theirs almost a millenium ago. What you need to understand is this isnt a Mosque, and hopefully it never will be. I am all up for interfaith relations however why do we have to make concessions? No one in the Catholic faith is saying you have to give us something to get along better, how about just get along and we dont give you anything and you dont give us anything. Why is there this thought that the Muslims are owed something? We owe you nothing

PEACE

[sameer]

I am all up for interfaith relations however why do we have to make concessions? No one in the Catholic faith is saying you have to give us something to get along better, how about just get along and we dont give you anything and you dont give us anything. Why is there this thought that the Muslims are owed something? We owe you nothing

PEACE

Arent muslim women being increasingly asked to give up their hijabs and veils?
what about the calling of the adhan for the community to hear?

U say that u owe us nothing? what about our rights? dont the west boast of being the lands of the free and equal?

[sameer]

Spain was CONQUERED by Muslims (North Africa also...). Nobody likes to be conquered and ruled by invaders. So I doubt they loved it.
It doesn't change a fact, that Al-Andalus was probably the most developed civilisation at that time

Hi duskiness.......i just want to remind u that places all over the world has been conquered and are now ruled by invaders.....

[MTAFFI]

Arent muslim women being increasingly asked to give up their hijabs and veils?
what about the calling of the adhan for the community to hear?

U say that u owe us nothing? what about our rights? dont the west boast of being the lands of the free and equal?

I personally havent seen them being asked to give up their veils, I understand that this is being asked in England and some other places in Europe but it hasnt been banned and probably wont. If it does then this could be a valid argument.

What about the calling of adhan? Not everyone wants to hear this, not to mention there is a separation of church in state in most countries, if you want this you need to go to a country that is under Islamic rule.

Every Muslim where i live has their rights, or at least the same rights as everyone else, so again i am not sure what you are talking about.

and just to make it clear no one owes you anything.

[rav]

MTAFFI your to arrogant to understand anything, if you weren't you would actually understand what's going on

What is going on then?

[Jayda]

please stop baiting each other...

[sameer]

I personally havent seen them being asked to give up their veils, I understand that this is being asked in England and some other places in Europe but it hasnt been banned and probably wont. If it does then this could be a valid argument.

What about the calling of adhan? Not everyone wants to hear this, not to mention there is a separation of church in state in most countries, if you want this you need to go to a country that is under Islamic rule.

Every Muslim where i live has their rights, or at least the same rights as everyone else, so again i am not sure what you are talking about.

and just to make it clear no one owes you anything.

it has been banned in schools in various european countries.
Maybe muslims have their rights where u live.....buh then again...that may be just your opinion.
So someone owes u something? if this is your attitude then we owe u no respect either nor do we owe u your human rights etc etc etc

[rav]

it has been banned in schools in various european countries.
Maybe muslims have their rights where u live.....buh then again...that may be just your opinion.
So someone owes u something? if this is your attitude then we owe u no respect either nor do we owe u your human rights etc etc etc

Wait, are you showing the audacity to actually attack the human rights policies in secular countries as a supporter of the rights given in Arab countries?

If so, the could you please list what policies in western countries show that make them "anti-muslim" towards their muslim citizens, so tha way we can distinguish what is anti-muslim and what is anti-religion in general.

[hamidah]

salamz..
cool i agreee

[MTAFFI]

it has been banned in schools in various european countries.

Well in many schools in America hats are not allowed to be worn in classes because it causes a distraction to other students, perhaps this is the logic behind them being banned in schools.

Maybe muslims have their rights where u live.....buh then again...that may be just your opinion.

no this isnt an opinion, this is a fact everyone has the same rights as anyone else where i come from.

So someone owes u something? if this is your attitude then we owe u no respect either nor do we owe u your human rights etc etc etc

first off, i never said anyone owes me anything, second i never said anyone wasnt owed respect or human rights. I give everyone respect until the give me reason to do otherwise and as far as human rights go, you may want to speak to some who lives in Iran where they arent allowed to speak against the government, and their government is so interested in causing conflict in the world they cant even get the majority of their people above poverty level.

this has gone totally off topic, someone might as well close the thread

[Abu Zakariya]

Why would Muslims want to pray in a church anyway? I mean, it's a place where they - from our perspective (not trying to offend anyone) - pray to a human and claim God has taken a son for himself. We shouldn't pray there in the first place. There are other ways of trying to work for peace and reconciliation.

[MTAFFI]

Why would Muslims want to pray in a church anyway? I mean, it's a place where they - from our perspective (not trying to offend anyone) - pray to a human and claim God has taken a son for himself. We shouldn't pray there in the first place. There are other ways of trying to work for peace and reconciliation.

i agree, even though we dont pray to any man

[England]

I have said time and time again. You have no chance with the Spanish. They don't bend over backwards to the minority like the British do and this is why the Spanish should be proud.

[sameer]

Well in many schools in America hats are not allowed to be worn in classes because it causes a distraction to other students, perhaps this is the logic behind them being banned in schools.

Im not speaking about america.... i'm speaking about other places.


no this isnt an opinion, this is a fact everyone has the same rights as anyone else where i come from.

dats just it........-where u come from


first off, i never said anyone owes me anything, second i never said anyone wasnt owed respect or human rights. I give everyone respect until the give me reason to do otherwise and as far as human rights go, you may want to speak to some who lives in Iran where they arent allowed to speak against the government, and their government is so interested in causing conflict in the world they cant even get the majority of their people above poverty level.

when u said that u owe us nothing and the way u said it.......well....i was thinking that u meant nothing at all not even human rights

....

[sameer]

anyhow.....i think this is a non-iusse.....i think they should concetrate on filling existing masajid instead of trying to get back the church.

[anis_z24]

What I dont understand is why do these people think they have a right to something that hasnt been theirs for some 700 years? I mean really this building has been a cathedral for the better part of a millenium and these people are still wanting to have some right to it. I personally think it is just another way to make Muslims feel like they are being persecuted. I am not trying to offend anyone, although i am sure i will, but the more i read and the more i see on the news the more i think islam is a religion for crybabies :cry: and trouble starters :raging:. Every week it is something else "Oh, someone is taking our land" or "Oh that was our mosque 700 years ago" or "Lets go throw a violent protest because some idiot drew pictures of our prophet". It seems to me Muslims are always just looking for a way to start something with someone else, whether it be some crazy conspiracy theory (that i read at least once on this site everyday) or it be someone offended them or didnt give what they want. Then it is everyone elses fault, how about take a look at yourself.

My point is everything is not yours and not everyone cares about what you think is sacred or even what is against your beliefs and religion. This is something that Muslims and Islam must deal with in order to live in society today. Do you really think Allah cares where you pray? :? Probably not, he is probably just happy you pray at all. Stop making a big deal out of everything and just be happy with what you got, it isnt like this is where you will spend the rest of eternity anyways, so what do you care about land or buildings. Really you will only exist for a blink of an eye.

AA
Obviously you need some help on Islam, its so obvious that you dont have a clue.

Anyways Islam is the religion and Muslims are its followers.
Its that Muslims that are claiming the landloss not Islam because in Islam we believe that all land belongs to God.

And its not only Muslims. there are people everywhere that had their property, land, life destroyed. ex Lebenon. There are Christians there.

And history does matter, you cant just shun off years of history and say lets begin again because people need to know and they wont forget.

And we are not claiming everything to be ours. Everything belongs to God. Land it be, or prayer or the sky.

WA

[anis_z24]

AA

Muslims do have the right of claim to Cordoba. If you look back in history and see the progress that was achieved inder Muslim rule in Spain its unbelievable.

WA

[rav]

Muslims do have the right of claim to Cordoba. If you look back in history and see the progress that was achieved inder Muslim rule in Spain its unbelievable.

So, there was a lot of progress in Eretz Yisroel with the Jews, does that mean you have given up your claim to the mount? :rollseyes

Should I even care about the answers I will get? Or just give one big sigh at the hypocrisy of all this.

[sameer]

So, there was a lot of progress in Eretz Yisroel with the Jews, does that mean you have given up your claim to the mount? :rollseyes

Should I even care about the answers I will get? Or just give one big sigh at the hypocrisy of all this.

but at the same time u think that jews have a claim to Israel and jerusalem and the temple of the mount? or is that the view of some jews only?
So its the same as the muslims in cordoba.....which i might add are only some muslims...

[MTAFFI]

AA
Obviously you need some help on Islam, its so obvious that you dont have a clue.

I have a clue, and I think a pretty good one. Islam teaches peace and love, and Muslims seem to do just the opposite.

Anyways Islam is the religion and Muslims are its followers.
Its that Muslims that are claiming the landloss not Islam because in Islam we believe that all land belongs to God.

WOW you really nailed me there, although i dont think i even used the word Islam in my previous post, OH MY GOSH I DIDNT!!! So what is your point I purposely used the word Muslim because i have nothing against Islam. It is the Muslims causing the problems, you are right about that. Obviously you need some help in reading because you obviously dont have a clue!;D

And its not only Muslims. there are people everywhere that had their property, land, life destroyed. ex Lebenon. There are Christians there.

Yeah you always see all the Christians making all kinds of problems, and why are these people homeless? Because a Muslim militant group went above the government and used this area as their battlefield.

And history does matter, you cant just shun off years of history and say lets begin again because people need to know and they wont forget.

Yes history does matter and people should not forget it, but just because you had something 700 years ago and lost it doesnt mean you just get it back today because it was yours 700 years ago, if this were the case nothing would have ever changed in history and this is not good.

And we are not claiming everything to be ours. Everything belongs to God. Land it be, or prayer or the sky.

Really? you could have fooled me, maybe if all Muslims believed like you do there wouldnt be so many problems in the world right now.

WA[/QUOTE]

[MTAFFI]

^correction i used the word islam once, but to reference its type of followers, not speaking of the religion itself

[MTAFFI]

AA

Muslims do have the right of claim to Cordoba. If you look back in history and see the progress that was achieved inder Muslim rule in Spain its unbelievable.

WA

yeah and look at all they accomplish today, maybe this is why they all want to live in the past

[Abu Zakariya]

MTAFFI

I think it's hard for you to imagine how it is for Muslims in some parts of the world. I live in Sweden and there are a lot of Muslim immigrants here, so there is some tension. I'm not going to say that we're persecuted because I don't think that's true. However, imagine how it is living in a country where you find myths in the media on a regular basis. "Muslims say women are inherently impure" (a claim made in the mainstream media, which simply isn't true), "Muslims want to take over the world", etc. There are certain politicans here that have been talking about forbidding Muslim women to wear a hijab/niqab even if it their own choice (this is basicly to restrict the freedom of Muslim women) and there's even been talk about singling out Muslim girls and forcing them to undergo gynecology examinations! I just read about a Muslim school here which is regularly vandalised and they write racist scribble on the walls regularly. Muslims have been attacked simply for being Muslims (I mean physically, as for verbally this is something I've experienced personally several times) and our mosques are being burnt down. There's a particular mosque in Malmö which couldn't even get insurance because they keep setting it on flames!!

Here's a picture of that mosque in flames:

And this is only the country where I live, how about other parts of the world.
So I think it's unfair to say that Muslims try to make themselves victims. We aren't the only ones pointing out these things. The mayor of London, for instance, said that we are being demonized like the Jews were! Desmond Tutu of South Africa even said that there is apartheid in Palestine, Jimmy Carter said something to the same effect. So, I really don't think it's fair of people to say that we make up stuff. This is reality.

Now, having said that, I do feel that you have a point. Muslims shouldn't whine. We should do something productive and try to change this. The people should feel that we contribute to the society and what is happening is partially our fault (maybe even our fault for the most part). Muslims have a bad reputation and we are the only one's that can change that. We must do something so that people feel that if we left the country, they would feel that it's a loss and not a gain.
However, it's hard when, for instance, the media refuses to mention things like the fact that the Islamic scholars have spoken out against terrorism for example and called it tyranny. Instead, they try to make it seem as if Muslim scholars preach terrorism (there are some obscure preachers that do, but I'm talking about the mainstream big scholars that are accepted in the Muslim world). They need to stop spreading myths (like the one I mentioned in the beginning of the post). But we have to do the most part and start contributing to society and spread a positive image of Muslims.

So I do agree with you, MTAFFI, but I also feel that you need to understand why Muslims may be reacting in certain ways. Have you ever heard about "Post Victimization Ethical Exemption Syndrome"?

[MTAFFI]

MTAFFI

I think it's hard for you to imagine how it is for Muslims in some parts of the world. I live in Sweden and there are a lot of Muslim immigrants here, so there is some tension. I'm not going to say that we're persecuted because I don't think that's true. However, imagine how it is living in a country where you find myths in the media on a regular basis. "Muslims say women are inherently impure" (a claim made in the mainstream media, which simply isn't true), "Muslims want to take over the world", etc. There are certain politicans here that have been talking about forbidding Muslim women to wear a hijab/niqab even if it their own choice (this is basicly to restrict the freedom of Muslim women) and there's even been talk about singling out Muslim girls and forcing them to undergo gynecology examinations! I just read about a Muslim school here which is regularly vandalised and they write racist scribble on the walls regularly. Muslims have been attacked simply for being Muslims (I mean physically, as for verbally this is something I've experienced personally several times) and our mosques are being burnt down. There's a particular mosque in Malmö which can't even get insurance because they keep burning it down!!

Here's a picture of that mosque in flames:

And this is only the country where I live, how about other parts of the world.
So I think it's unfair to say that Muslims try to make themselves victims. We aren't the only ones pointing out these things. The mayor of London, for instance, said that we are being demonized like the Jews were! Desmond Tutu of South Africa even said that there is apartheid in Palestine, Jimmy Carter said something to the same effect. So, I really don't think it's fair of people to say that we make up stuff. This is reality.

Now, having said that, I do feel that you have a point. Muslims shouldn't whine. We should do something productive and try to change this. The people should feel that we contribute to the society and what is happening is partially our fault (maybe even our fault for the most part). Muslims have a bad reputation and we are the only one's that can change that. We must do something so that people feel that if we left the country, they would feel that it's a loss and not a gain.
However, it's hard when, for instance, the media refuses to mention things like the fact that the Islamic scholars have spoken out against terrorism for example and called it tyranny. Instead, they try to make it seem as if Muslim scholars preach terrorism (there are some obscure preachers that do, but I'm talking about the mainstream big scholars that are accepted in the Muslim world). They need to stop spreading myths (like the one I mentioned in the beginning of the post). But we have to do the most part and start contributing to society and spread a positive image of Muslims.

I want to start out by saying thank you so much for saying that Muslims need to do something to change their image. So many want to just make excuse after excuse as to why people do things, instead of saying "Hey I dont believe what he did was right and it brought us down as a people and culture and we must do something to change this". I have been a lot of places in this world and yes there are a lot of negative comments made about Muslims, and most of this is perpetuated by the media which does give negative press to your people everyday. At the same time this type of negative press wouldnt be given if it werent going on, now dont get me wrong here, some things are flat out wrong, this is where the media needs to work on themselves. (you and I both know that wont happen)

I think if more Muslims thought like yourself it would fix a lot of things, unfortunately I think that Islam itself is becoming more and more a veil for those who want to use it for their own agenda, this is very sad, since it makes people who truly love and wish to serve God look like something they are not.

I know I probably come off on this site as an intolerant American who just wants to argue, but this is not the case, I just wish people would take responsiblity, and I think this is what Islam needs. The scholars and leaders of Islam need to come out and say "The violence in Iraq is not islamic, Iran is not Islamic, etc. and therefore these people are not practitioners of our faith, rather practitioners of murder, violence and everything that is not Islam" and they cannot just denounce this and just move on. They need to make a scene about it, like say with the prophet cartoons (without the violence). The media would never miss that, and I think alot more people would understand that this is not accepted.

So I do agree with you, MTAFFI, but I also feel that you need to understand why Muslims may be reacting in certain ways. Have you ever heard about "Post Victimization Ethical Exemption Syndrome"?

No i havent heard of this i will look it up on the wikipedia

PEACE AND THANK YOU FOR THE POST

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you MTAFFI

I have read through this thread again and I have to say I am more sympathetic towards the Muslim’s intentions than the Christians intentions. I can’t understand that what was once the third holiest Islamic place of worship has now been denied to them. They just want to make some arrangements to pray there, I really cannot see why Catholics cannot work something out.

Yes history does matter and people should not forget it, but just because you had something 700 years ago and lost it doesnt mean you just get it back today because it was yours 700 years ago, if this were the case nothing would have ever changed in history and this is not good.

Where in the Bible does Christ advocate taking property or a place of worship by force?

It seems that you are leaving the Muslims only one way to pray there. They should get an army and take it back. If they hold onto it for seven hundred years it becomes a Muslim shrine again.

This kind of reason and logic just does not seem to fit in with God’s plan for a holy place of worship. It highlights what is worst in all religions- conflict and ownership of God’s land by mere mortals.

There is one God who created each and every one of us, God is greater than the sum of all the religions of the world. We need to live in the spirit of love your neighbour as we love our self.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

[Jayda]

hola Eric_H

i do not mean to sound offensive... but i think you mentioned you are a Roman Catholic... Canon 1210 forbids the use of a Church for an impious purpose and a Cardinal has already rejected this request... the Church is very clear in its laws about the use of churchs and sharing them with non-believers is not allowed... the things you are saying about this Cathedral, while i think are in the spirit of tolerance, are going too far... you are saying things in opposition of Magisterium... that is forbidden... it is a sin... have you considered this?

and can we PLEASE stop this topic? nobody is saying anything... we are confusing speaking loudly for speaking intelligently and it has gone far off topic... and it is a dead issue that only provokes... let it be closed... please...

Dios te bendiga

[Abu Zakariya]

The scholars and leaders of Islam need to come out and say "The violence in Iraq is not islamic, Iran is not Islamic, etc. and therefore these people are not practitioners of our faith, rather practitioners of murder, violence and everything that is not Islam"

But they have done this! The problem is that the media doesn't mention these things. Look at this book:

http://www.fatwa-online.com/download...tterrorism.chm

The book contains collections of fatwas against terrorism. They are issued by some of the major scholars in the Muslim world. Here's an example:

Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azeez Aal ash-Shaykh, the muftee (one qualified to pass fatwa) of Saudi Arabia and the head of the Council of Senior Scholars and The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa has said that: "The explosions which have taken place in the United States of America are but a strike of oppression, injustice and tyranny - (all) which are not in agreement with the Sharee'ah of Islaam."

Here's another example of what he said:

That the Muslim who learns the details of his religion, and who acts upon the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) does not allow himself to fall into the likes of these actions, due to what they contain of exposing oneself to the wrath of Allaah, and then what results from them of harms and corruption (upon the earth).

They clearly said that this is against Islam.

and they cannot just denounce this and just move on. They need to make a scene about it, like say with the prophet cartoons (without the violence). The media would never miss that, and I think alot more people would understand that this is not accepted.

Well, the first thing you need to understand is that these particular scholars weren't for the scenes and demonstrations made against the cartoons in the first place. They don't believe in those kind of things. So they aren't going to do these kind of things now, just like they didn't when the cartoons came out.

What they have done, however, is they have worked hard to educate the Muslims about their religion and show them that terrorism is un-Islamic.

They imprison possible terrorists and here's an explanation of what they might do:

The counseling is conducted through discussions in appropriate settings during which the prisoner talks about his beliefs and the evidence verifying them, which we in turn discuss and modify, explaining the true meaning of the evidence he provides as proof for his beliefs. Many, thank God, change their viewpoints in one session. Afterwards, a report is written stating that counseling and discussion has been conducted. In the report, we include what this person's former ideas were and how they have changed and we then recommend his release. Some have been released and even come to visit me at the mosque every now and then.

The quote is from a scholar, Shaykh Abdul-Muhsin al-Ubaykan who works with the Saudi ministry of Justice. You see how effective it is when the scholars point out the mistakes and shows him what Islam really teaches, which brings about reform with that person.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Jayda, and no offence taken,

do not mean to sound offensive... but i think you mentioned you are a Roman Catholic... Canon 1210 forbids the use of a Church for an impious purpose and a Cardinal has already rejected this request... the Church is very clear in its laws about the use of churchs and sharing them with non-believers is not allowed... the things you are saying about this Cathedral, while i think are in the spirit of tolerance, are going too far... you are saying things in opposition of Magisterium... that is forbidden... it is a sin... have you considered this?

All the laws and the prophets of God hang on the two greatest commandments, how does the Cardinals ruling hang on loving your Muslim neighbours as you love yourself? I am thinking more of our Muslim brothers and sisters in Spain who would like to pray in the Cathedral.

In the spirit of searching for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[Jayda]

Greetings and peace be with you Jayda, and no offence taken,



All the laws and the prophets of God hang on the two greatest commandments, how does the Cardinals ruling hang on loving your Muslim neighbours as you love yourself? I am thinking more of our Muslim brothers and sisters in Spain who would like to pray in the Cathedral.

In the spirit of searching for a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

hola Eric_H,

do you believe that loving people means pleasing them or giving them whatever they want?

Dios te bendiga

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

letting Muslims pray there doesnt mean u should give to us. i would love to have it, but they conquered it and now they keep it. plain and simple.

[Jayda]

letting Muslims pray there doesnt mean u should give to us. i would love to have it, but they conquered it and now they keep it. plain and simple.

hola Tayyaba,

Canon Law does not speak about physical ownership but instead the activities of the church... it cannot be used for an impious purpose and using a church as a multifaith worship center is impious... please understand that this is not a question of liking muslims or wanting to have a closer relationship with muslims, it is a matter of Canon law and it cannot be abrogated... it is like asking muslims to do something against islam for multifaith reasons... that is what they are asking...

Dios te bendiga

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

then i wonder why most people have an issue with Muslims and say we aren't
"peaceful." I understand those are ur rules, so i have no problem with it. so much hypocrisy. people need to look at themselves...not referring to u btw :)

[rubiesand]

Canon 1210 forbids the use of a Church for an impious purpose and a Cardinal has already rejected this request... the Church is very clear in its laws about the use of churchs and sharing them with non-believers is not allowed

Churches which are no longer in use have been adapted to become restaurant and here an example of a Catholic church being sold to become a mosque. So if one day, the Church no longer needed Cordoba, it could again be used by Muslims is that correct?

[Jayda]

Churches which are no longer in use have been adapted to become restaurant and here an example of a Catholic church being sold to become a mosque. So if one day, the Church no longer needed Cordoba, it could again be used by Muslims is that correct?

hola rubiesand

Yes this is correct... Canon 12:30 i think... congregations usually have the most direct control over the parish they belong to... if they wish to move to a different building they ask for approval from their bishop and if he grants it there is a ceremony to deconsecrate the building, which makes it no longer a church or house of God, and it can be used for what the Church calls "profane' use...

a consecrated Church may not be used for any other purpose than worship though...

Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

then i wonder why most people have an issue with Muslims and say we aren't
"peaceful." I understand those are ur rules, so i have no problem with it. so much hypocrisy. people need to look at themselves...not referring to u btw :)

hola Tayyaba,

i do not know if i understand the connection between these peaceableness and church consecration... has somebody asked muslims to deconsecrate a mosque and make it something else for peace...?

Dios te bendiga...

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

no im jus speaking generally lol. sorry if i confused u :X

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Jayda,

do you believe that loving people means pleasing them or giving them whatever they want?

Always a tricky question to answer truthfully but as a Catholic I would like the freedom to worship in any place that has a deep meaning for me. If for whatever reason Catholics were ever denied the freedom to worship in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre; ( the tomb of Christ ) I would feel a great loss.

If I want the freedom to worship in the places that have a deep meaning for me, then I should also respect other peoples needs to worship in places that have meaning for them.

The Cordoba Mosque was the third most important Muslim site, so I can understand that Muslims would still have a great need to pray there.

If I am to truly love my Muslim brothers and sisters as I love myself then I must willingly and freely give them this same freedom that I desire for myself.

In the spirit of seeking peace for our neighbours

Eric

[mariam.]

Peace be upon who follow the truth and seek for it:
I didn't read all the reply but ..
Many question swarm in my heart .. Asking me day after day why ...
Why we should suffer jews faults and sins .. Now after 3000 years?
Why we can't just dreaming to return to Andalus that we lost either becouse of our faults and sins ..? now after 700 years
Why all the world confirm jews right to reoccupy palastine now?
Why we can't just said that we have right to regain cordoba to be mosque?
What jews gave to us except damage, kill, recism and poverty?
What we give to Andalus except knowledge, fairness, improvement, civilzation?
Both make mistakes and leave the godly legislation .. Why this partial view?
I have nothing to say except :
Palastine .. Andalus, same story .. Different view