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Pygoscelis
01-06-2007, 08:12 AM
In other threads this argument has come up a few times so I thought it deserved its own thread.

Theists frequently state that the universe is too wonderful to have always existed or happened by chance. It must have been designed by intelligence.

This is a very well known argument known as the watchmaker argument.

The typical atheist counter to it is to ask "What created God?"

If the universe requires a creator because it is so complex and wonderful, certainly something even MORE complex and wonderful requires a creator even moreso. God is more wonderful and complex than the universe, so God requires a creator. No?

If no, then the premise is violated and wonderfulness and complexity does not necesitate creation.

Thoughts?
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sevgi
01-06-2007, 08:16 AM
i stated earlier that i hated philosophy but here we go:

1. There is an efficient cause for everything; nothing can be the efficient cause of itself.

2. It is not possible to regress to infinity in efficient causes.

3. To take away the cause is to take away the effect.

4. If there be no first cause then there will be no others.

Therefore, a First Cause exists (and this is God).





Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
In other threads this argument has come up a few times so I thought it deserved its own thread.

Theists frequently state that the universe is too wonderful to have always existed or happened by chance. It must have been designed by intelligence.

This is a very well known argument known as the watchmaker argument.

The typical atheist counter to it is to ask "What created God?"

If the universe requires a creator because it is so complex and wonderful, certainly something even MORE complex and wonderful requires a creator even moreso. God is more wonderful and complex than the universe, so God requires a creator. No?

If no, then the premise is violated and wonderfulness and complexity does not necesitate creation.

Thoughts?
Reply

sevgi
01-06-2007, 08:22 AM
you say that:
"If the universe requires a creator because it is so complex and wonderful, certainly something even MORE complex and wonderful requires a creator even moreso. God is more wonderful and complex than the universe, so God requires a creator. No?"


thats exactly why God doesnt need a creator.his complexity and wonderfulness encompass the fact that he does not need a creator.
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Muslim Woman
01-06-2007, 08:54 AM
I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)


&&&


If the universe requires a creator because it is so complex and wonderful, certainly something even MORE complex and wonderful requires a creator even moreso. God is more wonderful and complex than the universe, so God requires a creator. No?

-----no, no & no.

I answered to this question in other forum. Anybody needs a Creator is creation , God does not need any creator. God is Eternal.

If there is a creator of God , then who created creator of
God ? Then again , who created creator of God's creator................very funny & illogical....No ?

useful link:

free book ,movie

Refutation of Atheism


http://www.harunyahya.com/c_refutation_atheism.php
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AzizMostafa
01-06-2007, 09:19 AM
When you look at yourself in a mirror, are you in the mirror or the mirror is in you?
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lolwatever
01-06-2007, 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
In other threads this argument has come up a few times so I thought it deserved its own thread.

Theists frequently state that the universe is too wonderful to have always existed or happened by chance. It must have been designed by intelligence.

This is a very well known argument known as the watchmaker argument.

The typical atheist counter to it is to ask "What created God?"

If the universe requires a creator because it is so complex and wonderful, certainly something even MORE complex and wonderful requires a creator even moreso. God is more wonderful and complex than the universe, so God requires a creator. No?

If no, then the premise is violated and wonderfulness and complexity does not necesitate creation.

Thoughts?
Ok so your question is "Who created god?"

Fair enough, we'll start with defining some important terms:

1. The Creator: somoene who creates, that is, literally creates.

i.e. Can create being from non being. In other words, can bring something into existance from a state of non existance.

that is, as a consequence of the above, is Able to defy law of conservation.

e.g. According to Quantum Cosmology, this universe came into existance from nothing, literally nothing. That is, this universe was literally created.

Baking a cake or writing a poem is not an example of creation. It's just transferring matter from one form to another.

2. spacetime:

The four-dimensional continuum of one temporal and three spatial coordinates in which any event or physical object is located.

spacetime originated with the big bang, that is, prior to the existance of the instanton, there was no space or time.

instanton: "Particle" that describes the spontaneous appearance of a universe from literally nothing.

Source: http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/qg_qc.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/spacetime


-----------

Having defined those important terms.

We can now proceed to define a characteristic of Allah, 'The Creator',

--------------
--------------
Definition:

"The Creator is by definition something that can create being from non being (our universe for example), to suggest that 'The Creator' was created is itself a contradictory statement. On top of that, God is time independent, so to ask how he began (or what created him) isn't a valid question to start with. Because that implies something preceeded him, which contradicts the definition."

--------------
--------------

As a result of that definition, the answer to your question naturally is 'nothing could have created him'.

Hope that helps inshalah.

all the best


ps: the definition is not one that was invented recently to adapt to new scientific models... it's compatability with quantum cosmology just serves to make it even more credible. Especially aspects like spactime independence which was possibly confusing for previous generations, hence the hadith quoted by Malaikah below.
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Malaikah
01-06-2007, 10:09 AM
There is really only one thing that can be said:

The Messenger of Allaah peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has warned us against some of these things. It says in the hadeeth: “The Shaytaan* comes to any one of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?’ If that happens to you, seek refuge with Allaah and give up these thoughts.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3277

*The name of the devil.
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lolwatever
01-06-2007, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
There is really only one thing that can be said:

The Messenger of Allaah peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has warned us against some of these things. It says in the hadeeth: “The Shaytaan* comes to any one of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?’ If that happens to you, seek refuge with Allaah and give up these thoughts.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3277

*The name of the devil.
Yeh very true, but seeing it's an athiest who's asking, we can seek refuge from him as well as explain the answer. Since the sahabah obviously didn't hve the means to understand this sorta stuff the way we're able to due to science.

And ofcourse, at the end Allah knows best! :D
:w:
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------
01-06-2007, 10:34 AM
:sl:

Nothing can 'create' God. That's what the meaning of God implies, that God was there before anything and will be there and was there - for infinity.

:w:
Reply

Trumble
01-06-2007, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by sumeyye

1. There is an efficient cause for everything; nothing can be the efficient cause of itself.

2. It is not possible to regress to infinity in efficient causes.

3. To take away the cause is to take away the effect.

4. If there be no first cause then there will be no others.

Therefore, a First Cause exists (and this is God).

I agree with hypotheses 1 and 3 (although I cannot prove them to be true). I disagree with hypothesis 2 (why is it not possible?), and therefore necessarily with 4.

The argument cannot be valid as the conclusion contradicts premise 1. You would need to amend that by adding "except a First Cause", in which case we would just be back where we started. And there is nothing that leads to the conclusion that any First Cause is God, unless, of course, you choose to define them as synonyms.
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Eric H
01-06-2007, 11:44 AM
Greetings and peace Pygoscelis,

There are only two possible explanations, both seem to defy, logic, reason and the laws of science as we know.

Something had no beginning.

Something came from nothing.

It would be easier to understand if nothing existed at all, but we wouldn’t be here asking this question.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
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AzizMostafa
01-06-2007, 12:26 PM
So far, no body has answered the question of mirror. Elaborating:
__________________________________
Needless to say that you need open eyes + a mirror to see yourself.
And of course you do need a brain + a heart to see yourself without mirror?

So, If you ask 2 persons to make the elephant pass through the eye of a needle, who is smarter then, the one who tries to make it. Or the one who acknowledges the extremities.
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lolwatever
01-06-2007, 12:32 PM
salams bro, how does that answer the original poster's qustion tho :?


tc salams :)


ps: Eric it's not as illogical as you may think it is :) checkout that link i plugged in my definition of spacetime for more info about things coming out of nothing as well as spacetime independence :)

But yes it is illogical to assume that creation from nothing could come about without a cause.
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Eric H
01-06-2007, 12:36 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Verdana"
When you look at yourself in a mirror, are you in the mirror or the mirror is in you?
I think there are two possible ways to find an answer, cut yourself in half and search for the mirror. Failing that brake the mirror and see if you are inside.

In the spirit of having a laugh:D

Eric
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Muslim Knight
01-06-2007, 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace Pygoscelis,

There are only two possible explanations, both seem to defy, logic, reason and the laws of science as we know.

Something had no beginning.

Something came from nothing.

It would be easier to understand if nothing existed at all, but we wouldn’t be here asking this question.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
God, The Supreme Being who created logic, reason and the laws of science, and isn't bound by them.
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AzizMostafa
01-06-2007, 12:38 PM
Lolwatever, when you look at yourself in a mirror, are you in the mirror or the mirror is in you?
Self-solving but Thought-Provoking?!
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lolwatever
01-06-2007, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by AzizMostafa
Lolwatever, when you look at yourself in a mirror, are you in the mirror or the mirror is in you?
Self-solving but Thought-Provoking?!
my image is in teh mirror. But innit that kinda off topic :?

no offence.

tc salamz :D
Reply

AzizMostafa
01-06-2007, 12:48 PM
Neither yours is Offensive nor mine was Off-topic?!
_________________________________________
Do your create your image in the mirror or does the mirror create your image?
Think of the the blind, could he/she see his/her image? Why? No eyes?
That's a fallacy, No Brain?
Reply

syilla
01-06-2007, 01:12 PM
:sl:

i think this thread is for scholars in philosophy...

i don't even understand the question....

and i don't understand what is the meaning of creating god?

i'm so totally confused.

Alhamdullillah....i have a simple mind with not so big brain.
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'Abd al-Baari
01-06-2007, 01:37 PM
TO PYGOCESILS
RE: IF GOD CREATED THE WORLD WHO CREATED GOD?

Say someone did create god, then the question would be who created the person who created god and this can go on forever. The purpose of religion is to have faith and acept something which we can't see, touch or feel
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Idris
01-06-2007, 01:39 PM
Prophet Muhammad predicted that this question would one day be raised as he correctly predicted a great many future events of importance. On one occasion he said:

A day will certainly come when some people will sit with their legs crossed and ask: ‘Given that God created everything, who created God?’ (Bukhari)



i'm so totally confused.
That's what philosophy about, never an answer just questions in questions in questions lol ...that is what I think...:)
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Abdul Fattah
01-06-2007, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
I agree with hypotheses 1 and 3 (although I cannot prove them to be true). I disagree with hypothesis 2 (why is it not possible?), and therefore necessarily with 4.

The argument cannot be valid as the conclusion contradicts premise 1. You would need to amend that by adding "except a First Cause", in which case we would just be back where we started. And there is nothing that leads to the conclusion that any First Cause is God, unless, of course, you choose to define them as synonyms.
Ok, Let me put it this way. If there were infinite causes that would also imply infinite time preceding it. That would mean that "now" (the present) can only exist if infinite time precedes it. So in other words we could wait forever, but big bang would never happen because it takes infinite time to pass first, but infinite time never passes, as it is infinite by defenition.
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Abdul-Raouf
01-06-2007, 02:00 PM
None Can give the answer

so its better to close :?
Reply

Snowflake
01-06-2007, 02:08 PM
I don't see the point in trying to convince disbelievers. We can never guide them. The message has already been delivered. Now it is up to them to accept it, or reject it.

Quran: "Verily you (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And he knows best those who are guided." [al-Qur’aan, al-Qasas(28):56]
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Re.TiReD
01-06-2007, 02:12 PM
who created thoughts...feelings...sight...touch....?


they are real...we feel them....yet i dont know who created them! I would say I feel them because of Allah....to ask who created Allah is a ignorant question and one that does not require a answer for a true beliver. :X Peace
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Abdul-Raouf
01-06-2007, 02:14 PM
Close this thread ... please
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Sabbir_1
01-06-2007, 02:16 PM
I don't see the point in trying to convince disbelievers.
We muist still try to tell them... Even i they dont listen.. most of them are just so braiwashed from what they hear from the media about islam that they wont listenm to anyone else..

If god created the universe who created god
If you look at the buildings, did you see the people who built them.. no.. where u there no.. but you know that it couldnt of come into existence without a creater. same wid the universe u know its there.. u didnt see who created it....but it must of had a creater. and that is Allah s.w.t

We can never guide them
Allah guides them

The message has already been delivered. Now it is up to them to accept it, or reject it.
True.. inshallah falsehood will perish, and truth will prevail.
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Re.TiReD
01-06-2007, 02:25 PM
[QUOTE]are you in the mirror or the mirror is in you?
QUOTE]

the mirror is on the wall....you can see your reflection in it..nothing is in nobody! :X :?
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Trumble
01-06-2007, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by steve
So in other words we could wait forever, but big bang would never happen because it takes infinite time to pass first, but infinite time never passes, as it is infinite by defenition.
Wait from when? The concept is meaningless if time is infinite; it only makes sense if you assume what you are trying to prove in the first place. Your implied premise is that there is a starting point, but that point is an infinite distance from now (or the Big Bang, or whatever). That is clearly nonsense, but its also totally different from claiming there isn't such a starting point in the first place, in which case the problem doesn't arise. Every point in time is as good as any other.
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Pygoscelis
01-06-2007, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by khalil27
If you look at the buildings, did you see the people who built them.. no.. where u there no.. but you know that it couldnt of come into existence without a creater.
Indeed. And following this same logic, the creators of those buildings must be intelligent and awfully complicated creatures. Indeed we are. And being even more complicated and wonderful than the buildings, we must surely require a creator too, right? Just like the buildings.

And just like the creators of the buildings the creators, or creator of us must be more wonderful and complex than the creation. And it being so, it must even moreso need a creator. Hence the question of who created God.

And this goes on and on to infinity, getting more and more complex with each step.

I agree with the poster above who said that we are forced between two highly unlikely scenarios. Either something came from nothing (be it the universe, the creator of it, or the creator of the creator of it) or there is an infinite stream of creation.

and that is Allah s.w.t
This part is often added as an afterthought. But it is such a massive leap that it shouldn't be. Even if the universe was created by a creator declaring that creator to be a specific God with specific traits and demands doesn't follow without a whole lot of additional explanation.
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Pygoscelis
01-06-2007, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
The Messenger of Allaah peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has warned us against some of these things. It says in the hadeeth: “The Shaytaan* comes to any one of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?’ If that happens to you, seek refuge with Allaah and give up these thoughts.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 3277
I was not aware of this. It is interesting to know.

Your faith forbids you from considering this quandry? Perhaps it is a better instrument for questioning faith than I had supposed.
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skhalid
01-06-2007, 05:32 PM
I think some1 has already said:
A creator doesnot always have to be created as well!!!
Just because everything has that has been created has a creator...there can only be one answer, that overall...there must be a top creator who created all from the beginning....its a sort of creativity chain...it must have a start and an end!!!
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- Qatada -
01-06-2007, 05:49 PM
This vast universe is a big miracle and it couldn't have been created by itself. The one who created it can simply destroy it, which shows its imperfection.

The Creator of the universe however is perfect, and Has no flaws whatsoever. Therefore no-one could have created God because God is Perfect.


If anyone claims that God is created by some other perfect being, then they are wrong because something cannot be perfect unless it is self-sufficient. And part of being imperfect is the idea of it being created.

If anyone asks if God could create another God in His place, we simply say that God only does what befits His Majesty, so He isn't in need, or doesn't need to create another being like this, because that would make the other being imperfect.


Allaah Almighty knows best.



This thread will continue going in circles and repetitive arguments, so Thread Closed.



Peace.





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