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khoshtip_uk
01-07-2007, 04:12 PM
I have seen in Quran saying cut hands of thief(which DO NOT repents !!
I want to know who is god talking to? can anyon carry out this order and at any time ?? or that it was an order to prophet ??and under what circumestances this order should be carried out?if person has mental disablity should he/she be considered as a thief??

[5:37] They will want to exit Hell, but alas, they can never exit therefrom; their retribution is eternal.
[5:38] The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands* as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

any scientific prove or advice about the theory and logic behind this ?
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khoshtip_uk
01-07-2007, 04:13 PM
worth adding this Aya too:

5:39] If one repents after committing this crime, and reforms, GOD redeems him. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
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- Qatada -
01-07-2007, 04:31 PM
:salamext:


I think it can only be applied in an islamic state. :) And we don't have no islamic state today.
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khoshtip_uk
01-07-2007, 04:34 PM
who is in charge? who can carry out quran's order???
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- Qatada -
01-07-2007, 04:47 PM
:salamext:


The islamic judge (the qadhi) so we can't see someone stealing in our ordinary life and say that we have to cut anyone's hand off. Only the judge can make the ruling.
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khoshtip_uk
01-07-2007, 04:49 PM
but if person who steals promise not to do it again his hands will not be cut off?
if tru,
what if he steals again an dpromises again not to do
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- Qatada -
01-07-2007, 04:53 PM
:salamext:


It's more complicated than that. For example, if someone is stealing just enough to survive [because he/she is dying] - then obviously their not going to cut the persons hand off.

But the judge will apply the ruling if he knows the situation properly and will take into consideration all that occured. It's not just simply that we saw him stealing so we cut it off, but the judge will try to see the persons reason, what the witnesses saw, why the person did it etc.
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khoshtip_uk
01-07-2007, 04:57 PM
i know there are 50 check has to be carried out like why he stole... and whether he is going to repent... but where do those rules come from ???prophets hadis???ahl al bayt(imams)???or Quran?,
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Snowflake
01-07-2007, 05:01 PM
I was reading somewhere that the translation of the ayah means to cut the hand as in mark it with a cut, not to cut OFF.

That makes sense because the next ayah mentions forgiveness if one repents. If someone repents after having his hand chopped off, it isn't going to bring his hand back is it. If Allah said He will forgive if one repents then who is man to inflict that kind of punishment. I don't understand.
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- Qatada -
01-07-2007, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
I was reading somewhere that the translation of the ayah means to cut the hand as in mark it with a cut, not to cut OFF.

That makes sense because the next ayah mentions forgiveness if one repents. If someone repents after having his hand chopped off, it isn't going to bring his hand back is it. If Allah said He will forgive if one repents then who is man to inflict that kind of punishment. I don't understand.
:salamext:


We can't really say and we should leave that to the scholars because we don't know the arabic language, or the context it was revealed in etc. and if it was done at the time of Rasool Allaah sal Allaahu alayhi waSalam.


Bro khoshtip, i think the scholars use sciences such as usool al fiqh etc. which are kinda advanced, and i don't know much about them so i can't say, sorry.
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seeker_of_ilm
01-07-2007, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
I was reading somewhere that the translation of the ayah means to cut the hand as in mark it with a cut, not to cut OFF.

That makes sense because the next ayah mentions forgiveness if one repents. If someone repents after having his hand chopped off, it isn't going to bring his hand back is it. If Allah said He will forgive if one repents then who is man to inflict that kind of punishment. I don't understand.
:sl:

First of all this is what Tafsir Ibn Kathir says on the cutting of the hands:

Allah commands and decrees that the hand of the thief, male or female be cut off. During the time of Jahiliyyah, this was also the punishment for the thief, and Islam upheld this punishment. In Islam, there are several conditions that must be met before this punishment is carried out, as we will come to know, Allah willing. There are other rulings that Islam upheld after modifying these rulings, such as that of blood money for example. When Does Cutting the Hand of the Thief Become Necessary In is recorded in the Two Sahihs that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, n

«لَعَنَ اللهُ السَّارِقَ يَسْرِقُ الْبَيْضَةَ فَتُقْطَعُ يَدُهُ، وَيَسْرِقُ الْحَبْلَ فَتُقْطَعُ يَدُه»


(May Allah curse the thief who steals an egg and as a result his hand is cut off, and who steals rope and as a result his hand is cut off.) Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded that `A'ishah said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«تُقْطَعُ يَدُ السَّارِقِ فِي رُبْعِ دِينَارٍ فَصَاعِدًا»


(The hand of the thief shall be cut off if he steals a quarter of a Dinar or more.) Muslim recorded that `A'ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, said that the Messenger of Allah said,

«لَا تُقْطَعُ يَدُ السَّارقِ إِلَّا فِي رُبْعِ دِينارٍ فَصَاعِدًا»


(The hand of the thief shall only be cut off if he steals a quarter of a Dinar or more.) This Hadith is the basis of the matter since it specifies (that the least amount of theft that deserves cutting the hand) is a quarter of a Dinar. So this Hadith fixes the value. And saying that it is three Dirhams is not a contradiction. This is because the Dinar in question was equal to twelve Dirhams, so three Dirhams equalled a fourth of a Dinar. So in this way it is possible to harmonize these two views. This opinion was reported from `Umar bin Al-Khattab, `Uthman bin `Affan,

And this is what is said regarding the forgiveness:

Allah said next,

فَمَن تَابَ مِن بَعْدِ ظُلْمِهِ وَأَصْلَحَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ يَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ


(But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds, then verily, Allah will pardon him. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) Therefore, whoever repents and goes back to Allah after he commits theft, then Allah will forgive him. Imam Ahmad recorded that `Abdullah bin `Amr said that a woman committed theft during the time of the Messenger of Allah and those from whom she stole brought her and said, "O Allah's Messenger! This woman stole from us.'' Her people said, "We ransom her.'' The Messenger of Allah said,

«اقْطَعُوا يَدَهَا»


(Cut off her hand.) They said, "We ransom her with five hundred Dinars.'' The Prophet said,

«اقْطَعُوا يَدَهَا»


(Cut off her hand.) Her right hand was cut off and the woman asked, "O Messenger of Allah! Is there a chance for me to repent'' He said,

«نَعَمْ أَنْتِ الْيَوْمَ مِنْ خَطِيئَتِكِ كَيَوْمَ وَلَدَتْكِ أُمُّك»


(Yes. This day, you are free from your sin just as the day your mother gave birth to you.) Allah sent down the verse in Surat Al-Ma'idah,

فَمَن تَابَ مِن بَعْدِ ظُلْمِهِ وَأَصْلَحَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ يَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ


(But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allah), then verily, Allah will pardon him. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) This woman was from the tribe of Makhzum. Her story was narrated in the Two Sahihs from Az-Zuhri from `Urwah from `A'ishah, The incident caused concern for the Quraysh after she committed the theft during the time of the battle of the Conquest of Makkah. They said, "Who can talk to Allah's Messenger about her matter'' They then said, "Who dares speak to him about such matters other than Usamah bin Zayd, his loved one.'' When the woman was brought to the Messenger of Allah , Usamah bin Zayd talked to him about her and the face of the Messenger changed color (because of anger) and he said,

«أَتَشْفَعُ فِي حَدَ مِنْ حُدُودِ اللهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ؟»


(Do you intercede in a punishment prescribed by Allah) Usamah said to him, "Ask Allah to forgive me, O Allah's Messenger!'' During that night, the Messenger of Allah stood up and gave a speech and praised Allah as He deserves to be praised. He then said,

«أَمَّا بَعْدُ فَإِنَّمَا أَهْلَكَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ أَنَّهُمْ كَانُوا إِذَا سَرَقَ فِيهِمُ الشَّرِيفُ تَرَكُوهُ، وَإِذَا سَرَقَ فِيهِمُ الضَّعِيفُ أَقَامُوا عَلَيْهِ الْحَدَّ، وَإِنِّي وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَوْ أَنَّ فَاطِمَةَ بِنْتَ مُحَمَّدٍ سَرَقَتْ لَقَطَعْتُ يَدَهَا»


(Those who were before you were destroyed because when an honorable person among them would steal, they would leave him. But, when a weak man among them stole, they implemented the prescribed punishment against him. By Him in Whose Hand is my soul! If Fatimah the daughter of Muhammad stole, I will have her hand cut off.) The Prophet commanded that the hand of the woman who stole be cut off, and it was cut off. `A'ishah said, `Her repentance was sincere afterwards, and she got married and she used to come to me so that I convey her needs to the Messenger of Allah.'' This is the wording that Muslim collected, and in another narration by Muslim, `A'ishah said, "She was a woman from Makhzum who used to borrow things and deny that she took them. So the Prophet ordered that her hand be cut off.'' Allah then said,

أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُ مُلْكُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالأَرْضِ


(Know you not that to Allah (Alone) belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth!) He owns everything and decides what He wills for it and no one can resist His judgment,

فَيَغْفِرُ لِمَن يَشَآءُ وَيُعَذِّبُ مَن يَشَآءُ وَاللَّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ


(He forgives whom He wills and punishes whom He wills. And Allah is able to do all things.)

يأَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ لاَ يَحْزُنكَ الَّذِينَ يُسَارِعُونَ فِى الْكُفْرِ مِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ ءامَنَّا بِأَفْوهِهِمْ وَلَمْ تُؤْمِن قُلُوبُهُمْ وَمِنَ الَّذِينَ هِادُواْ سَمَّـعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ سَمَّـعُونَ لِقَوْمٍ ءاخَرِينَ لَمْ يَأْتُوكَ يُحَرّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِن بَعْدِ مَوضِعِهِ يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَـذَا فَخُذُوهُ وَإِن لَّمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُواْ وَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ فِتْنَتَهُ فَلَن تَمْلِكَ لَهُ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يُطَهّرَ قُلُوبَهُمْ لَهُمْ فِى الدُّنْيَا خِزْىٌ وَلَهُمْ فِى الاْخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ سَمَّـعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ أَكَّـلُونَ لِلسُّحْتِ فَإِن جَآءوكَ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ أَوْ أَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ وَإِن تُعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ فَلَن يَضُرُّوكَ شَيْئاً وَإِنْ حَكَمْتَ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِالْقِسْطِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ وَكَيْفَ يُحَكّمُونَكَ وَعِندَهُمُ التَّوْرَاةُ فِيهَا حُكْمُ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يَتَوَلَّوْنَ مِن بَعْدِ ذلِكَ وَمَآ أُوْلَـئِكَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِنَّآ أَنزَلْنَا التَّوْرَاةَ فِيهَا هُدًى وَنُورٌ يَحْكُمُ بِهَا النَّبِيُّونَ الَّذِينَ أَسْلَمُواْ لِلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالرَّبَّانِيُّونَ وَالاْحْبَارُ بِمَا اسْتُحْفِظُواْ مِن كِتَـبِ اللَّهِ وَكَانُواْ عَلَيْهِ شُهَدَآء فَلاَ تَخْشَوُاْ النَّاسَ وَاخْشَوْنِ وَلاَ تَشْتَرُواْ بِـئَايَـتِى ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْكَـفِرُونَ


(41. O Messenger! Let not those who hurry to fall into disbelief grieve you, of such who say, "We believe'' with their mouths but their hearts have no faith. And of the Jews are men who listen much and eagerly to lies, listening to others who have not come to you. They change the words from their places; they say, "If you are given this, take it, but if you are not given this, then beware!'' And whomsoever Allah wants to put in Fitnah, you can do nothing for him against Allah. Those are the ones whose hearts Allah does not want to purify; for them there is a disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a great torment.) (42. They (like to) listen to falsehood, to devour Suht. So if they come to you, either judge between them, or turn away from them. If you turn away from them, they cannot hurt you in the least. And if you judge, judge with justice between them. Verily, Allah loves those who act justly.) (43. But how do they come to you for a decision while they have the Tawrah, in which is the decision of Allah; yet even after that they turn away. For they are not believers.) (44. Verily, We did send down the Tawrah, therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets who submitted themselves to Allah's will, judged for the Jews. And the Rabbaniyyun and the Ahbar, for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me and sell not My verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed, such are the disbelievers.)

:w:
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skhalid
01-07-2007, 05:16 PM
Lets just make it straight ere....u are givin' a chance to repent...if you misuse that chance....u never get it back...some kind of punishment has to be carried out for making such a promise and never sticking with it!!!
As far as I know, if someone steals and don't repent...they get one hand chopped off...and if they do it again even after the punishment, their other hand is chopped off!!! But for some...that don't stop them from commiting a crime...if they don't have hands...they simply use other people to do their bad deeds and get them into trouble..
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seeker_of_ilm
01-07-2007, 05:42 PM
:sl:

Also thought I'd add from Maariful Quran on the matter:

It will be recalled that forgiveness was also mentioned in connection with the Prescribed Punishment for robbery appearing a few verses earlier (34) - and forgiveness has also been mentioned after the punishment for theft as well. But, the statement for forgiveness at both places has a particular difference and it is on the basis of this difference that the sense of forgiveness in both punishments has been taken differently by Muslim jurists. While ordaining the punishment for robbery, giving an exception, Almighty Allah has said: "Except those who repent before you overpower them" [5:34] the outcome of which is that the Hadd Punishment for robbery mentioned in the verse provides an exemption whereby the one who repents - before robbers are overpowered and arrested by the government - shall have his Hadd Punishment forgiven.

As for the forgiveness mentioned in the punishment for theft, it does not have the exemption from this temporal punishment. It is rather in terms of the hereafter that this repentance shall be accepted towards which a clear indication exists in the words: "then Allah shall relent towards him". In other words the relevant ruler of the time will not abandon the Hadd Punishment because of this repentance, instead of that, Allmighty Allah will, by forgiving their crime, grant deliverance to them from that punishment of the Hereafter. Therefore, Muslim jurists almost unanimously agree that the Hadd Punishment for robbery shall not be enforced on robbers who repent before they are arrested. But were a thief to forsake and repent from stealing after having committed a theft - whether before or after arrest - then the Hadd of Sariqah, the Islamic Legal Punishment, which is a temporal punishment, will not be forgiven. The the sin has been forgiven and deliverance from the punishment of the Hereafter has been achieved is not contrary to this

:w:
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Snowflake
01-07-2007, 05:45 PM
Seeker of Ilm,
Are you saying that people get a chance to repent before their hand is chopped off as in the case of the woman?

Fi_Sabilillah;619408]:salamext:
We can't really say and we should leave that to the scholars because we don't know the arabic language, or the context it was revealed in etc. and if it was done at the time of Rasool Allaah sal Allaahu alayhi waSalam
if it was done in the time of the Prophet (PBUH) then it has to be upheld at all time.
For instance, after the death of the Prophet certain tribes asked Abu Bakar (ra) to be made exempt from paying zakaah. Along with most muslims even Umar (ra) favoured the demand of the tribes. But Abu Bakr felt it was wrong to assume that the matter was only between the prophet and the tribes as Islam is a covenant of Allah and with the passing away of the Prophet does not cease to exist. So whatever was done in the time of the Prophet is still mandatory today.

:w:
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seeker_of_ilm
01-07-2007, 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by Muslimah_Sis
Seeker of Ilm,
Are you saying that people get a chance to repent before their hand is chopped off as in the case of the woman?

:sl:

Just to clarify, none of that was said by me, everything I quoted was from Tafsir Ibn Kathir. And then my later post from Maariful Quran.

Read my latest post in the thread, from Maariful Quran, it explains insha'Allah.

:w:
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Naira
01-09-2007, 12:09 PM
no person gets a chance to repent before their hand is chopped off
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Snowflake
01-09-2007, 04:49 PM
If they did get a chance to repent, their hands wouldn't be cut off.. as anyone about to have their body parts hacked off will repent.

A mother and son went to Hajj last year from the UK and the mother stole something. her son took the blame and came back with his hand chopped off. So much for being given a chance to repent. And he wasn't even guilty.
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skhalid
01-09-2007, 05:41 PM
Wat is de point ...those who repent might not even mean it...how r we suppose to know if dey ain't just acting and dnt mean a single word they say?:?
It must b true what people say...a leopard never changes his spots...but a snake can change his skin..and form another one...who knows if it changes the way they are...or if its just like changing clothes every now and then...they'll always remain de same!!!
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- Qatada -
01-09-2007, 05:44 PM
:salamext:


If the person is sincere in their repentance, Allaah may choose to forgive them. If the person never repented and pretended he/she did - then they may get punished in the afterlife, because the only reason for the hadd punishment is because it expiates for the punishment of the afterlife. And if it takes place in this world, the person won't be blameworthy in the next life inshaa'Allaah. And Allaah azawajal knows best.
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sudais1
01-09-2007, 07:27 PM
what about children who steal like 12 or 14? does the ruling only go to those who've reached puberty??
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