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FollowingAlhuda
01-10-2007, 05:17 PM
The Quran says that the Jews took Ezra to be the son of God. Can somebody please get some specific information about this? In the tafseer (Or does someone know the surah where this comes from)
Or about the Islamic view at Jews?
I really need this anwsers. Someone asked me about this. I hope that Insha Allah someone has the anwsers.

Wassalam

Aouatif
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Malaikah
01-11-2007, 12:35 AM
:sl:

Here is what someone explained in another thread:

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
I think it has to be understood that the Ayah which mentions Ezra and the belief that he is the son of Allah, refers specifically to the Jews in Medina (and possibly other places in Arabia) who held that belief. Muhammad Asad (a Jew who converted to Islam) explains it in his commentary on the Qur'an:

As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name, `Uzayr) was "God's son", it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. (According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse - some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our qiblah and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?")

So one shouldn't think this means that the Qur'an claims that todays Jews believe in Ezra as Allah's son. As rav explained, they don't.
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Skillganon
01-11-2007, 12:37 AM
Sis do a search on the forum. You most likey to find the topic in the refutation section.
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rav
01-11-2007, 03:29 AM
I'm sorry but some of these "refutations" are just ridiculous. I'm still waiting for reliable proof on the subject, that any Jew ever viewed Ezra as a "god".
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Malaikah
01-11-2007, 03:37 AM
Please explain to me how this is ridiculous?

Muhammad Asad (a Jew who converted to Islam) explains it in his commentary on the Qur'an:

As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name, `Uzayr) was "God's son", it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. (According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse - some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our qiblah and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?")
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rav
01-11-2007, 03:45 AM
Muhammad Asad (a Jew who converted to Islam) explains it in his commentary on the Qur'an:

As regards the belief attributed to the Jews that Ezra (or, in the Arabicized form of this name, `Uzayr) was "God's son", it is to be noted that almost all classical commentators of the Qur'an agree in that only the Jews of Arabia, and not all Jews, have been thus accused. (According to a Tradition on the authority of Ibn `Abbas - quoted by Tabari in his commentary on this verse - some of the Jews of Medina once said to Muhammad, "How could we follow thee when thou hast forsaken our qiblah and dost not consider Ezra a son of God?")
But I have found no unbiased source who has no interest in the descion to say this "worship" ever occured. The fact is that there is no documentary evidence to support this claim. It is a "claim".
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truthbetold
01-11-2007, 06:21 PM
Surah 9 Verse 30 is where it is mentioned in the Quran...

And the Jews say:Uzair(Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say:Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbeileved aforetime. Allah's curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
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Abu Zakariya
01-13-2007, 10:18 PM
rav

...we can deduce that the inhabitants of Hijaz during Muhammad's time knew portions, at least, of 3 Enoch in association with the Jews. The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim, the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah, but most often it is applied to the righteous men, of whom Jewish tradition holds there to be no more righteous than the ones God elected to translate to heaven alive. It is easy, then, to imagine that among the Jews of the Hijaz who were apparently involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur'an 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted.

Source: G. D. Newby, A History Of The Jews Of Arabia, 1988, University Of South Carolina Press, p. 59.

Just because you haven't found an unbiased source that confirms this doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
rav

...we can deduce that the inhabitants of Hijaz during Muhammad's time knew portions, at least, of 3 Enoch in association with the Jews. The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim, the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah, but most often it is applied to the righteous men, of whom Jewish tradition holds there to be no more righteous than the ones God elected to translate to heaven alive. It is easy, then, to imagine that among the Jews of the Hijaz who were apparently involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur'an 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted.

Source: G. D. Newby, A History Of The Jews Of Arabia, 1988, University Of South Carolina Press, p. 59.

Just because you haven't found an unbiased source that confirms this doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
How is this an unbiased source?
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 03:13 AM
How is this an unbiased source?
Well, rav asked for a source that has no interest in the descion to say this "worship" ever occured

I don't see why Gordon Darnell Newby, a non-Muslim, would have a secret agenda or something.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 03:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
Well, rav asked for a source that has no interest in the descion to say this "worship" ever occured

I don't see why Gordon Darnell Newby, a non-Muslim, would have a secret agenda or something.
Is he a non-Muslim? I do not know, he certainly has a lot of written work on Islam. If he is not a Muslim he certainly has an obsession or loving for Islamic history.

Did he not write this?

http://store.talkislam.com/b8099.html
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 03:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Is he a non-Muslim? I do not know, he certainly has a lot of written work on Islam. If he is not a Muslim he certainly has an obsession or loving for Islamic history.

Did he not write this?

http://store.talkislam.com/b8099.html
Ah, so your theory is that every person that studies in the field of orientalism or Islamic history is Muslim? Come on.
Look at his CV:

North Carolina State University Summer Teacher Institute for Jewish History, Culture, and Religion.

Is he a Jew as well?
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 03:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
Ah, so your theory is that every person that studies in the field of orientalism or Islamic history is Muslim? Come on.
I was just pointing this out, we have no idea of knowing what his intentions are, but he does write a lot about Islam and gets a lot of his books sold in Islamic stores, especially for a "kafir".
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Goku
01-14-2007, 03:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
I was just pointing this out, we have no idea of knowing what his intentions are, but he does write a lot about Islam and gets a lot of his books sold in Islamic stores, especially for a "kafir".

Karen Armstrong and Maurice Bacille get their books sold in a lot of Islamic bookships and internet wesites/shops. But neither are Muslim, well i cant say for certain with Maurice but im quite sure Karen isnt.
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
I was just pointing this out, we have no idea of knowing what his intentions are, but he does write a lot about Islam and gets a lot of his books sold in Islamic stores, especially for a "kafir".
So basically your saying that whatever source I give you, it's not okay since "we don't know this guy's intention"? It's an interesting way to debate. One demands a source who has no interest in the decision, and when a source is brought, then you simply dismiss it by saying "well, we don't really know his intention".

but he does write a lot about Islam
He writes a lot about Judaism and Jews as well.

and gets a lot of his books sold in Islamic stores
Really? This claim is really interesting. A lot of his books, eh? In Islamic stores, huh? Well, I only saw one of his book sold in one Islamic store. You really stretched the truth there, didn't you?
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 03:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Goku
Karen Armstrong and Maurice Bacille get their books sold in a lot of Islamic bookships and internet wesites/shops. But neither are Muslim, well i cant say for certain with Maurice but im quite sure Karen isnt.
I'll do some research to see what religion he is, and I will post whatever I find.

He writes a lot about Judaism and Jews as well.
In Arab countries, with Arab influences on them.. Everything he writes on Judaism is relative to its relationship to Islam I believe.

So basically your saying that whatever source I give you, it's not okay since "we don't know this guy's intention"? It's an interesting way to debate. One demands a source who has no interest in the decision, and when a source is brought, then you simply dismiss it by saying "well, we don't really know his intention".
I think you are confusing me with "Rav". I believe that a source would be a document from the time showing the worship happend within a sect of the Jewish Arabian community, not a mans opinion in his book especially when the logic he uses to come to his conclusion of the areas jews being involved in "mysticism and some how realting it to the term "son of god" makes no sense at all.
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Goku
01-14-2007, 04:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
I'll do some research to see what religion he is, and I will post whatever I find.
He was a Christian when he wrote the book: "The Bible, the Qur'an and modern Science"

I couldnt find any source claiming he reverted to Islam, but we'll see what u can come up with.
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 02:04 PM
In Arab countries, with Arab influences on them.. Everything he writes on Judaism is relative to its relationship to Islam I believe.
First of all, that is something you just made up. Again, on his CV under "HONORS, GRANTS AND AWARDS" you find this: "Phillips Research Fellow in Jewish Studies, St. John's University, 1991-2." and this "North Carolina State University Summer Teacher Institute for Jewish History, Culture, and Religion".
Second of all, orientalism is his field, of course he is going to write about that subject and Jewish-Muslim relations is something many people find interesting, so he writes about that. That doesn't make him a Muslim.

I believe that a source would be a document from the time showing the worship happend within a sect of the Jewish Arabian community
Well, it is. But you refuse to accept it on the account that Muslims recorded it.

not a mans opinion in his book
Yes, this is just some random guy who wrote a book without any credentials.

Anyways, I gave you guys a secular source. If you refuse to accept it, that's your choice.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 03:20 PM
But your secular source makes no sense. That is why I am disputing it.

He says: involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah to somehow link together why the Jews of Arabia would worship Ezra. Yet that makes zero sense at all!

Do you know what the merkabah is? I have no clue how the author could relate to speculations of the merkabah to have anything at all to do with Ezra or worship of a "son of god".
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 04:01 PM
But your secular source makes no sense. That is why I am disputing it.
That's not what you said a few posts back. You said that he isn't unbiased because we don't know his real intentions. You just changed your story.

Do you know what the merkabah is? I have no clue how the author could relate to speculations of the merkabah to have anything at all to do with Ezra or worship of a "son of god".
Taken from Wikipedia:

The Hebrew word Merkabah is used in Ezekiel (1:4-26) to refer to the throne-chariot of God, the four-wheeled vehicle driven by four chayot "living creatures", each of which has four wings and four faces (of a man, lion, ox, and eagle). In medieval Judaism, the beginning of the book of Ezekiel was regarded as the most mystical passage in the Bible, and its study was discouraged, except by mature individuals with an extensive grounding in the study of traditional Jewish texts.

Now, the author discusses the mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, amongst medieval Jews. If you take a look at what I just quoted from Wikipedia, you will see that it makes perfect sense. Medieval Jews, according to Wikipedia and the author, saw these passages from a mystical perspective.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 04:08 PM
Now, the author discusses the mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, amongst medieval Jews. If you take a look at what I just quoted from Wikipedia, you will see that it makes perfect sense. Medieval Jews, according to Wikipedia and the author, saw these passages from a mystical perspective.
Yeah, of course it is a mystical passage. I have never heard however, it having any relation to Ezra, or even to the term "son of god". I cannot see how the author can form a link between mystical speculation of the merkabah to terming Ezra as the "son of god" It makes no sense how those can be related.
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Yeah, of course it is a mystical passage. I have never heard however, it having any relation to Ezra, or even to the term "son of god". I cannot see how the author can form a link between mystical speculation of the merkabah to terming Ezra as the "son of god" It makes no sense how those can be related.
All you have to do is actually read the quote. I'll walk you through it:

The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim

So some angels were called the sons of God.

the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah

This term could also be applied to the Messiah

but most often it is applied to the righteous men, of whom Jewish tradition holds there to be no more righteous than the ones God elected to translate to heaven alive.

Also, the term was applied to righteous men, and those whom God had elected to translate to heaven alive were absolutely considered righteous.

Further on, the author tries to show why Ezra was considered the son of God. He list a few charachteristics of his that the Jews felt he had:

Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim.

Now, the author had just mentioned what could qualify one as a "son of God", which characeristics one should have. And he also showed that Ezra was considered to posses these characteristics. Thus, he was refered to as "the son of God".

I'll summarize:

* Some people were called the sons of God.
* They were called that because they possesed certain characteristics.
* Ezra, according to them, possesed these characterstics.
* 1+1=2.

The merkabah is relevant since it has to do with the angels, some of whom were also called the sons of God, and the angels' relation to the heaven and the scribes.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 05:02 PM
The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim
the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah
The above is wrong. The "son of G-d" has never in any jewish thought or scripture been refered to as the Messiah. There is no such thing as G-d having a "son" in Jewish thought or scripture either. It is a completly foreign idea.

"Bene El-him" does not mean "son of G-d".


In Genesis 6:2, the term "bene elohim" is used I will show you the text, the proper translation, and the commentary on the verse:
"That the sons of the nobles saw the daughters of man when they were beautifying themselves, and they took for themselves wives from whomever they chose"
(Genesis 6:2)
וַיִּרְאוּ בְנֵי-הָאֱלֹהִים אֶת-בְּנוֹת הָאָדָם, כִּי טֹבֹת הֵנָּה; וַיִּקְחוּ לָהֶם נָשִׁים, מִכֹּל אֲשֶׁר בָּחָרו
http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...showrashi=true

RASHI: the sons of the nobles Heb. בָּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים, the sons of the princes (Targumim) and the judges (Gen. Rabbah 26:5). Another explanation: בָּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים are the princes who go as messengers of the Omnipresent. They too mingled with them (Pirkei d’Rabbi Eliezer, ch. 22). Every אֱלֹהִים in Scripture is an expression of authority, and the following proves it (Exod. 4:16):“And you shall be to him as a lord (לֵאלֹהִים)” ; (ibid. 7:1):“See, I have made you a lord (אֶלֹהִים).”

Therefore, as you may have noticed, the term "bene elohim" has nothing to do with being a son of G-d, as you have suggested.

This term could also be applied to the Messiah
No, it cannot. The Moshiach is refered to as a "King" or "Melekh".

Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim.
No he could not, because as I have shown "Bene Elohim" does not refer to being a "son of G-d" at all.

Some people were called the sons of God.
No they were not. They were refered to as "Bene Elohim" which is mistranslted to mean "son of G-d" but does not refer to G-d at all.
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 05:32 PM
Obviously, his point is that the Jews of today and the medieval Jews of Arabia (or at least some of them) had some differences in their beliefs.

By the way, I don't think that anyone has said that all of the Jews in Arabia believed in Ezra as the son of God. This was something particular to some of the Medinan Jews (and possibly others as well). It isn't an accusatation that the Jews of today believe in this.

The Muslim sources say that some of the Jews believed this, and some of them are specifically mentioned. Examples of the ones that believed in this are: Finhas, Sullam ibn Mishkam, Nu'man ibn Awfa, Sha's ibn Qays and Malik ibn al-Sayf. Now, I know that you don't accept Muslim sources. But where can we find non-Muslim documents discussing the beliefs of Finhas, Sullam ibn Mishkam and the others so this can either be verified or debunked? Are there any sources? If not, then all you can say is that the Muslim sources claim this and it is up to each and every one of us to either believe in it or not. It isn't disproven. However, I do have a few questions.

1. Why would it be mentioned at all in the Qur'an if they didn't believe this? Why would it be brought up?
2. Why didn't the Jews of Medina protest when they heard this? Why didn't they point out that they don't believe in this, if they didn't?
3. The Ayah in question points out that these Jews said this about Ezra. If they never said it, and the Qur'an claims they did, why would the Muslims at that time believe in the Qur'an when that would be such an obvious mistake? They lived amongst the Jews and interacted with them.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 07:21 PM
1. Why would it be mentioned at all in the Qur'an if they didn't believe this? Why would it be brought up?
It was an obvious misunderstanding of Jewish culture, especially since Judaism demands its adherents especially in those times to not talk to the secular or other religions and to keep yourself a distance from the other non-Jews, it most likely was a misinterpretation on the part of Mohammed.

2. Why didn't the Jews of Medina protest when they heard this? Why didn't they point out that they don't believe in this, if they didn't?
What do you mean protest? First, off were the Jews of Medina reading the Quran? Second, they most likely were not even interacting with Muslims unless nessesary. Thirdly, the Jews have had to deal with the claim that jesus was Messiah when we believe this to be untrue. We are not running around in protest, because Judaism teaches us to not care what other religions say.

3. The Ayah in question points out that these Jews said this about Ezra. If they never said it, and the Qur'an claims they did, why would the Muslims at that time believe in the Qur'an when that would be such an obvious mistake? They lived amongst the Jews and interacted with them.
That is your third mistake. The Jews did not or avoided as much as possible interaction with the non-Jews. In Europe, this is also what borught much anti-semitism against the Jews. The refusal to assimilate or interact with the majority non-Jewish public, a practice which Muslims do today by refusing to assimilate, and staying in their neighborhoods for the most part, although Muslims have not gone to the extremes that Jews have done to do so.

The Jews, if Muslims made a mistake of what they were doing would not go out of their way to point this out, since in those times, and today some rabbincal authorities say Jews should not teach non-Jews about Torah.
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 08:16 PM
It was an obvious misunderstanding of Jewish culture, especially since Judaism demands its adherents especially in those times to not talk to the secular or other religions and to keep yourself a distance from the other non-Jews, it most likely was a misinterpretation on the part of Mohammed.
The Jews of Medina were pretty much intergrated into the Arab society. One of the Jewish leaders, Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, actually came from a mixed marriage (his father was an Arab polytheist, and his mother was Jewish).
They weren't particularly zealous about their faith.

What do you mean protest?
If it was a misrepresentation on the part of Muhammad (sall Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam), then they would have protested and pointed out that they don't believe in this.

First, off were the Jews of Medina reading the Quran?
The Qur'an wasn't a book concealed amongst the Muslims and only read by the scholars or something. It was recited daily and openly, especially during the prayers. It was something everyone could hear.

Second, they most likely were not even interacting with Muslims unless nessesary.
Oh, they were. But of course you consider every Muslim record of this to be a forgery and a lie, right?

Thirdly, the Jews have had to deal with the claim that jesus was Messiah when we believe this to be untrue. We are not running around in protest, because Judaism teaches us to not care what other religions say.
But it was a direct statement about these particular Jews. If it was untrue, they would protest and point out that it wasn't true. But they didn't, that's the point. There is explicit mention of the fact that this passage of the Qur'an was read out to some Jews, who didn't protest. From the book "The Qur'an and the Orientalists":
Al-Baydawi futher points out that the 'ayah in question was read out and recited as usual but no Madinan Jew came forward with a contradiction (fn.Al-Baydawi, Tafsir, I, second Egyptian impression, 1968, p. 412).

That is your third mistake. The Jews did not or avoided as much as possible interaction with the non-Jews. In Europe, this is also what borught much anti-semitism against the Jews. The refusal to assimilate or interact with the majority non-Jewish public, a practice which Muslims do today by refusing to assimilate, and staying in their neighborhoods for the most part, although Muslims have not gone to the extremes that Jews have done to do so.
First of all, we're talking about the medieval Jews of Medina, not the Jews of today. Second of all, if you want to bring up what's going on today - can it really be said that Jews, in general, segregate themselves? If you look at the US, UK, Australia etc. do the non-religious Jews really do this?
If I tell you that some Jews in my community have assimilated into the Swedish society, would you claim that this is impossible since Jews don't integrate into society?

By the way, your point about the similarity in how the Jews and Muslims of Europe didn't/don't want to assimilate is interesting. Do you have any links or something with more information about this?

Second of all, there are plenty of reports where it is shown that the Jews of Medina did indeed interact with Muslims. But since you refuse to accept them on the account that they're sources preserved by Muslims, I don't see why you participate in this discussion at all? Nothing about Jewish life at that time can be known according to you, since the Muslims were the ones who recorded the documents.

The Jews, if Muslims made a mistake of what they were doing would not go out of their way to point this out, since in those times, and today some rabbincal authorities say Jews should not teach non-Jews about Torah.
Ah, but they did protest when it came to other matters. And they did debate with the Muslims.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 08:34 PM
The Jews of Medina were pretty much intergrated to the Arab society. One of the Jewish leader, Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, actually came from a mixed marriage (his father was an Arab polytheist, and his mother was Jewish).
They weren't particularly zealous about their faith.
Hmmm... that is odd, a leader from a mixed marriage?

The Qur'an wasn't a book concealed amongst the Muslims and only read by the scholars or something. It was recited daily and openly, especially during the prayers. It was something everyone could hear.
Jews are not aloud to study or listen to others holy books. We can only study them to defend or strengthen our faith.

First of all, we're talking about the medieval Jews of Medina, not the Jews of today. Second of all, if you want to bring up what's going on today - can it really be said that Jews, in general, segregate themselves? If you look at the US, UK, Australia etc. do the non-religious Jews really do this?
Back a long time ago there was no such thing as a "liberal judaism" or "secular jew". There was one Judaism, and it is what you would find in Orthodox Judaism today.

Now please, I ask go to a Orthodox Jewish neighborhhod in Brooklyn, Samford Hill (sp?) and see what you find. No Jew will probably even make eye contact with you because they wish to not assimilate or make much contact.

By the way, your point about the similarity in how the Jews and Muslims of Europe didn't/don't want to assimilate is interesting. Do you have any links or something with more information about this?
I'll look, I read something once on the comparison.

Second of all, there are plenty of reports where it is shown that the Jews of Medina did indeed interact with Muslims. But since you refuse to accept them on the account that they're sources preserved by Muslims, I don't see why you participate in this discussion at all? Nothing about Jewish life at that time can be known according to you, since the Muslims were the ones who recorded the documents.
Jews never wrote any documents in that time? There were no christians or Pagans present either?

I am not suggesting that the Muslims lied about this, I am suggesting they misunderstood what the term "bene elohim" meant. A misunderstanding the Jews either did not care to correct, did not know of, or possibly did know of, but didn't understand exactly what the Muslims interpreted it to be and thought they were refering to "son of G-d" as they interpret "bene elohim".

Who knows. I have serious doubts Ezra was worshiped by any Jew ever, as a "son of G-d" since Judaism was completly rejected such a thought of jesus, and the entire Jewish world sighed at how christianity was worshiping jesus, and how much of a sin it was. I'm sorry, but the Quran makes the claim, and I have serious doubts and require a lot of proof that a Jewish community could worship Ezra.

My belief is that it was a misunderstanding by thr early Muslims.

I still have serious questions about the verse itself:

"The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah…"

I mean the Quran uses "the" the same way it refers to all Christians. How is one refering to a small sect while the other refering to an entire religion?

If I wrote something like this:

"The Muslims call Mohammed a prophet, and the Jews call Moshe a prophet."

How on earth can you say it is refering to "some Muslims". It makes no sense to me. Please clarify. Could the passage above suggest at all that some Muslims believe this.

Plus, is there any Jewish literiture from the Jews of Medina that would suggest such worship? If they did they would certainly write it down would they not? They would certainly have some time of written work about Ezra.
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 08:49 PM
Hmmm... that is odd, a leader from a mixed marriage?
Yes, he was a chief of one of the Jewish tribes.

Jews are not aloud to study or listen to others holy books. We can only study them to defend or strengthen our faith.
These Jews apparently did. Again, these particular Jews weren't really that zealous about their faith. For instance, it is forbidden to marry a non-Jew,right? And yet Ka'b's father was an Arab pagan. If you don't believe me, read: The Jews of Arab Lands: A History and Source Book (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, p. 13), by Norman Stillman.

Back a long time ago there was no such thing as a "liberal judaism" or "secular jew". There was one Judaism, and it is what you would find in Orthodox Judaism today.
Were all the Jews religious? Were there not heretical groups?

Now please, I ask go to a Orthodox Jewish neighborhhod in Brooklyn, Samford Hill (sp?) and see what you find. No Jew will probably even make eye contact with you because they wish to not assimilate or make much contact.
But that is today, in New York. That was 1400 years ago, in Medina.

I'll look, I read something once on the comparison.
I appreciate it.

Jews never wrote any documents in that time? There were no christians or Pagans present either?
Where are the document from the non-Muslims in Medina at that time? Were can I read them?

I am not suggesting that the Muslims lied about this, I am suggesting they misunderstood what the term "bene elohim" meant. A misunderstanding the Jews either did not care to correct, did not know of, or possibly did know of, but didn't understand exactly what the Muslims interpreted it to be and thought they were refering to "son of G-d" as they interpret "bene elohim".

Who knows. I have serious doubts Ezra was worshiped by any Jew ever, as a "son of G-d" since Judaism was completly rejected such a thought of jesus, and the entire Jewish world sighed at how christianity was worshiping jesus, and how much of a sin it was. I'm sorry, but the Quran makes the claim, and I have serious doubts and require a lot of proof that a Jewish community could worship Ezra.

My belief is that it was a misunderstanding by thr early Muslims.
If these Jews had their own understanding of "bene elohim", then it still doesn't make the ayah of the Qur'an wrong. Because the Qur'an simply mentions that they had said that Ezra is the son of Allah (they refered to God as Allah, atleast when interacting with the Arabs). That's not a misunderstanding, it's a quote. Either they said that, or they didn't. You can misunderstand the quote itself, however.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 08:56 PM
Were all the Jews religious? Were there not heretical groups?
Yes, but these heretical groups were most likely no longer practicing Judaism which is not the case. The Jews of Medina did practice Judaism to the best of my knowledge.

Where are the document from the non-Muslims in Medina at that time? Were can I read them?
I'm asking you. I believe they have never mentioned Ezra being worshiped in any they have found or they would haved most certainly been brought up by now, or I would have been made aware of them.

If these Jews had their own understanding of "bene elohim", then it still doesn't make the ayah of the Qur'an wrong. Because the Qur'an simply mentions that they had said that Ezra is the son of Allah (they refered to God as Allah, atleast when interacting with the Arabs). That's not a misunderstanding, it's a quote. Either they said that, or they didn't. You can misunderstand the quote itself, however.
Alright I stand corrected. The quote does not misunderstand, it is flat out wrong.

But that is today, in New York. That was 1400 years ago, in Medina.
Yes, and Jewish history has there was no "liberal" Judaism. What did happen back then often was a somone would marry and convert to Judaism. King Soloman married many non-jewish women but they all converted, when married I believe.
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 08:58 PM
I still have serious questions about the verse itself:

"The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah…"

I mean the Quran uses "the" the same way it refers to all Christians. How is one refering to a small sect while the other refering to an entire religion?

If I wrote something like this:

"The Muslims call Mohammed a prophet, and the Jews call Moshe a prophet."

How on earth can you say it is refering to "some Muslims". It makes no sense to me. Please clarify. Could the passage above suggest at all that some Muslims believe this.
Here's an explanation (again from the book "the Qur'an and the Orientalists"):

Similarly, Al-Qurtubi mentions the same fact and the same names adding that the expression "the Jews" occuring at the beginning of the 'ayah means "some particular Jews", just as the expression "people told them" (qala lahum al-nas) means not all the people of the world but some particular people. He further says that the Jewish sect who held that 'Uzayr was God's son had become extinct by his (Al-Qurtubi's) time (fn. Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir, Pt. VIII, 116-117).

So you se that even though the Qur'an uses the "al" ("the") doesn't necessarily mean that it refers to everyone. This is clear if you look at other parts of the Qur'an.

Plus, is there any Jewish literiture from the Jews of Medina that would suggest such worship? If they did they would certainly write it down would they not? They would certainly have some time of written work about Ezra.
Is there any literature that survived? I don't know.

I'm asking you. I believe they have never mentioned Ezra being worshiped in any they have found or they would haved most certainly been brought up by now, or I would have been made aware of them.
Well, we would have to analyze the documents of the Medinan Jews - if they exist - that have survived to see if anything is mentioned.

Alright I stand corrected. The quote does not misunderstand, it is flat out wrong.
How do you know that these particular Jews didn't believe in it? Because todays Jews don't believe in it?
What if I accused you of believing in Ezra as the son of God? Or if I concocted a quote where you say that you believe in him as God's son? Wouldn't you protest?
These Jews didn't. But they did when it came to other things.

Yes, and Jewish history has there was no "liberal" Judaism. What did happen back then often was a somone would marry and convert to Judaism. King Soloman married many non-jewish women but they all converted, when married I believe.
So you mean to tell me that evey single Jew in the history of mankind was religious, except for some of todays Jews?
And Ka'b's father didn't convert. But he chose to follow the religion of his mother, instead of paganism. Again, the Jews were pretty much intergrated into the Arab society.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 09:00 PM
Similarly, Al-Qurtubi mentions the same fact and the same names adding that the expression "the Jews" occuring at the beginning of the 'ayah means "some particular Jews", just as the expression "people told them" (qala lahum al-nas) means not all the people of the world but some particular people. He further says that the Jewish sect who held that 'Uzayr was God's son had become extinct by his (Al-Qurtubi's) time (fn. Al-Qurtubi, Tafsir, Pt. VIII, 116-117).
Is their a name of this "sect". The explanation seems very vauge
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 09:11 PM
Is their a name of this "sect". The explanation seems very vauge
These Jews were pretty much mentioned by name (although I don't think the ones mentioned were the only ones believing in this) and I don't think they called themselves anytinh other than Jews.

Because we're talking about the belief of some particular people in Medina, it's pretty much impossible to disprove that what the Qur'an said is true. Either you believe in the Muslim sources, or you don't.
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IzakHalevas
01-14-2007, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
These Jews were pretty much mentioned by name and I don't think they called themselves anytinh other than Jews.

Because we're talking about the belief of some particular people in Medina, it's pretty much impossible to disprove that what the Qur'an said is true. Either you believe in the Muslim sources, or you don't.
Disprove? The Quran makes the claim and therefore should be able to support its claim. It cannot with an unbiased source. A "unbiased source" given does not make any sense and basically mistranslates a Hebrew word giving me a lot of suspicion.
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Abu Zakariya
01-14-2007, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IzakHalevas
Disprove? The Quran makes the claim and therefore should be able to support its claim. It cannot with an unbiased source. A "unbiased source" given does not make any sense and basically mistranslates a Hebrew word giving me a lot of suspicion.
But you fail to realise that even non-Muslim historians use, for instance, the Sirah of ibn Ishaq to find out more about what happened in Medina, even though it's a Muslim source. If you can't show me where a non-Muslim document from that time can be found, then we'll have to stick with Muslim sources and you seem to reject them.
Even the book I refered to earlier (The Jews of Arab Lands: A History and Source Book (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, p. 13), by Norman Stillman.) has to depend on Muslim sources when, for instance, mentioning Ka'b.

As for the unbiased source I gave you...
First of all, you just implied that it isn't unbiased (by writing the word with quotation marks) despite all of the discussion we had. Why didn't you answer my points earlier in the discussion we had about his neutrality?
Second of all, he isn't saying that the word should be translated that way, he claims that they interpreted it that way (even though you might not).
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