/* */

PDA

View Full Version : Homophobia, not injustice, is what really fires the faiths



root
01-11-2007, 02:20 AM
Polly Toynbee
Tuesday January 9, 2007
The Guardian


The religious are rallying by torchlight outside parliament this evening. In the Lords they are trying to strike out regulations in the new equality act that outlaw discrimination and harassment of gays, making it illegal to discriminate in providing any goods and services to anyone, from healthcare to hotel rooms. This is a mighty test of strength between the religious and the secular. Any peers against discrimination, get on down the Lords: the vote is at 7.30pm. Will the Tories prove to be gay-friendly?

Christians, Muslims and Jews are all fighting against the sexual orientation regulations with a wrecking clause that would render them meaningless: "Nothing in these regulations shall force an individual to act against their conscience or strongly held religious beliefs." Anyone could use their "conscience" to discriminate against gays.

Get one thing clear: this law does not stop religions from banning gays joining their congregations or becoming priests. (Though they don't seem to be very good at it.) But it does oblige any organisation or business offering services to the public to offer them equally to all comers. Bizarre and repugnant ads in newspapers from Christian organisers have spread outright lies about what this law does. Their campaign, strongly supported by the Daily Mail, has whipped up a degree of homophobia still lurking under an apparently tolerant surface. The gay rights group Stonewall has been horrified at the resurgence of threats and obscene abuse.

To make their case, the religious have struggled to think up extreme scenarios where the law might affect them, but each has proved to be wrong, as ministers have refuted them all.

They claim the law will "force all schools to actively promote homosexual civil partnerships to children (from primary-school age) to the same degree that they teach the importance of marriage". No it won't: the curriculum does not "actively promote" homosexuality, nor even make sex education compulsory. They claim the law will "force a printing shop run by a Christian to print fliers promoting gay sex". No it won't, unless the same printers promote heterosexual porn too. Or how about this one? "Force a family-run B&B to let out a double room to a transsexual couple, even if the family think it in the best interests of their children to refuse to allow such a situation in their home." Oh no it won't: it doesn't even cover transsexuals - and what a daft scenario anyway. The National Secular Society has complained to the Advertising Standards Authority. But on and on go the prurient situations the religious homophobes dream up. The Christian Concern for Our Nation, petitioning the Queen, claims they "love their neighbours", but "Christians, of course, earnestly desire the repentance and salvation of homosexuals".

None of this might matter much if it were just about the strange practices in private of religious bigots. But faith groups already run and are bidding to take over many more social services. If they win this debate, free to discriminate as they please, they will prove themselves utterly unfit to provide state services or receive state funding.

Lord Ferrers in the last debate said hospitals should be allowed to discriminate if they had a Christian ethos. Does that mean they do now? Are they turning away gay Aids patients? He said a pro-life Catholic hospital should be allowed to turn away a lesbian for fertility treatment. (Though any non-Catholic turning to Catholics for fertility treatment needs their head examined.) The Catholic adoption society said it will shut up shop if it has to allow gay couples to apply. Churches say they will never let out a hall to a gay organisation. Christians running soup kitchens say they want to refuse gays shelter and soup. (Soup!) The Catholic Archbishop of Liverpool threatens to withdraw all cooperation over schools and charity programmes if the law goes through. The Bishop of Rochester says it will damage church work in inner cities. (Only if his church shuts down services.) The C of E pretends that the law would force it to bless civil unions (it won't).

Listen to all these good reasons why the state should step back from its current infatuation with faith provision of social services. In a democracy, public services paid for out of general taxes can't be held to ransom by the weird sexual fantasies of unelected service providers. These faith groups are now showing exactly why they should not be running an ever growing number of schools and academies. Homophobic bullying is rife in schools: 15-25 children a year kill themselves due to bullying, many, if not most, tormented because they are perceived to be gay. So why are we putting state schools into the hands of organisations that openly preach homophobia as a creed so holy it trumps all their other good works?

Recently there has been an organised upsurge of religions protesting at secularism. Nothing surprising about a fightback from the Archbishop of Canterbury and the rest against what they claim is militant secularism. That's their job. The recent Guardian ICM poll showed 63% are non-believers, with 82% regarding religion as the cause of division. Fighting back on these pages, Tobias Jones intemperately called secularists totalitarian dictators pretending to be tolerant. However, secularists are not threatening to deny services to the religious: it is they who want to discriminate. Keeping the public sphere free of dogmas is not a denial of the right of anyone to act as they please - so long as they don't harm others.

More alarming is the backsliding of liberal and left thinkers on religion. Neal Lawson, an atheist from leftist pressure group Compass, laid into secularism on these pages. He is right that many religious groups do good work in the toughest inner-city areas. But how depressing to suggest that moral leadership now only resides among the faiths. Indignation about social injustice may be lacking in politics, but today the faiths use their greatest firepower not to challenge gross inequality. No, what ignites their torchlit excitement is, yet again, other people's sexuality. Given an ounce of power they abuse it to deny basic liberties. Last year, they rallied to refuse the right to die with dignity. Now they are back harassing gays. Religion may appeal to some on the left yearning for moral certainty in a complicated world. But today's debate will be a sharp reminder of the intolerance and illiberalism that comes with it. Get on down the Lords for 7.30, you peers!
Source:http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...985899,00.html
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Keltoi
01-11-2007, 01:12 PM
I agree somewhat. Think of all the good that could be done by the religious community if they put as much passion and effort into social work as they do in stopping the homosexual agenda. That being said, most people of faith view homosexuality as a grave sin, and nothing will change that.
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-11-2007, 04:27 PM
look,

homosexuality is a sin, but so is hurting someone unjustly without a trial etc.

if you look at the cases they use, they actually spin this one pretty well and it is cunning and well hidden.

lets take this one for example,

They claim the law will "force a printing shop run by a Christian to print fliers promoting gay sex". No it won't, unless the same printers promote heterosexual porn too.
but they could be forced to close if they dont stock books promoting gay christian lifestyles as valid and there are many such gay christian groups so it is a spin, of-course it wont promote gay sex but it can promote gay marriage in a christian bookshop especially if coming from a gay christian.

in the same way a muslim bookshop could be forced to stock literature from the so called progressive muslim movement that promote homosexuality as valid within islam.

here is another...

Or how about this one? "Force a family-run B&B to let out a double room to a transsexual couple, even if the family think it in the best interests of their children to refuse to allow such a situation in their home." Oh no it won't: it doesn't even cover transsexuals - and what a daft scenario anyway.
i have never heard a speaker or newspaper mention transexuals, but a homosexual couple could sue a B&B for not renting them a double bed. this is a spin by mentioning transexuals and making everyone think the same would apply for homosexuals.

it is clever and cunning but also totally wrong to use such spin to promote your argument when you know it is not true.

homosexuality is a sin, and so it should not be promoted or said to be ok, you cant force me to say it is and if laws were introduced forbidding me from saying so then i might have to consider a non violent protest of maybe wearing a t-shirt on that one.

there are many other issues it is true, but with homosexuality being one of the chief means for shaitan to tear down society then it should be argued against and taught that it is wrong.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

wilberhum
01-11-2007, 08:36 PM
Religions have always justified inequality and discrimination by calling it god's will. It is just Homophobia and other concepts of superority.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Dawud_uk
01-11-2007, 10:21 PM
who said i feel superior?

they're could be good muslims sincere in their heart but sinful in this one matter and so superior to me in the sight of Allah.

but homosexuality is a disease of the heart and mind and as such can be cured of their illness and i hope homosexuals look at these cures for the heart and mind that are found in the teachings of Islam.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

arabiyyah
01-11-2007, 10:25 PM
i have a question and it may sound stupid: are there gay animals?
Reply

Abdul Fattah
01-11-2007, 10:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by arabiyyah
i have a question and it may sound stupid: are there gay animals?
Yes the bonobo monkey for example. In their culture sex is traded for food, so a good hunter gets all the action in return for some leftovers of yesterdays dinner. Eventually this leads to situations where weak males who are unable to hunt for food offer their body in return for food. Next to this there are also other effects. Incest for example is also very common among bonobo's due to this.
Reply

root
01-12-2007, 08:12 AM
i have a question and it may sound stupid: are there gay animals?
Actually over 250 homosexual practicing species are known about.
Reply

north_malaysian
01-12-2007, 08:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by steve
Yes the bonobo monkey for example. In their culture sex is traded for food, so a good hunter gets all the action in return for some leftovers of yesterdays dinner. Eventually this leads to situations where weak males who are unable to hunt for food offer their body in return for food. Next to this there are also other effects. Incest for example is also very common among bonobo's due to this.
:omg: I dont know this...
Reply

north_malaysian
01-12-2007, 09:03 AM
Is it true, that Abbasid Caliph Al Ma'mun (813 - 833 CE) had love affairs with Abu Nuwwas?
Reply

Abdul Fattah
01-13-2007, 03:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Actually over 250 homosexual practicing species are known about.
Really? By what standards is this counted? I mean I know cases of dogs and goats and so on who do this, but there it's just the case of confusion, dogs will jump on humans' legs too. I know off a guinea pig that used to hump a stuffed animal. All those things do not mean that those animals can be counted as "homosexual practicing species" (or fetishism or bestiality for that matter). Do those 250 animals all have documented cases of males that have a re-occurent pattern of preferring a male partner over a female when both are available? Do these 250 animals actually sodomies each other or just "dry hump"? It's easy to come with a nice round figure like that, but I'd need some sources before you convince me.
Reply

Zulkiflim
01-13-2007, 02:35 PM
Salaam,

It is ismple.in Islam gays/lesbina are an abomination..""!!!!

sinful..i am sure some moderate muslim would say otherwise.

But for the chrisitan and judaist here,,i would say,,do you have sodom and gammorah in your books?
Reply

wilberhum
01-13-2007, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
who said i feel superior?

they're could be good muslims sincere in their heart but sinful in this one matter and so superior to me in the sight of Allah.

but homosexuality is a disease of the heart and mind and as such can be cured of their illness and i hope homosexuals look at these cures for the heart and mind that are found in the teachings of Islam.

Abu Abdullah
Your statements are proof of your claim to superority.
Reply

wilberhum
01-13-2007, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zulkiflim
Salaam,

It is ismple.in Islam gays/lesbina are an abomination..""!!!!

sinful..i am sure some moderate muslim would say otherwise.

But for the chrisitan and judaist here,,i would say,,do you have sodom and gammorah in your books?
Then lets leave it to god. Or do you think god needs your help to keep other people in line?
Reply

Fishman
01-13-2007, 07:16 PM
:sl:
I class homosexuals into two different groups:
1. People who have homosexual desires, but hate being homosexual, and don't fall to their desires by doing such things as dressing as the opposite gender or having gay sex, for example. Some fatwas I have read say that these people will not be punished for merely having these desires, as we are judged for our actions not our thoughts:
http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detai...main_cat_id=33

2. People who want to act on their homosexuality. They are the people who dress as women, have intercourse with other men and go around being proud of being gay. They are like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and are real sinners.
http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detai...main_cat_id=33

I think the cause of homosexuality is not because of genetics, nor is it a conscious choice, but since most gay people say that they were gay even in childhood it must be something to do with the development of the child in early life, because they were in a bad environment.
:w:
Reply

root
01-13-2007, 09:58 PM
Steve - Really? By what standards is this counted? I mean I know cases of dogs and goats and so on who do this, but there it's just the case of confusion, dogs will jump on humans' legs too. I know off a guinea pig that used to hump a stuffed animal. All those things do not mean that those animals can be counted as "homosexual practicing species" (or fetishism or bestiality for that matter). Do those 250 animals all have documented cases of males that have a re-occurent pattern of preferring a male partner over a female when both are available? Do these 250 animals actually sodomies each other or just "dry hump"? It's easy to come with a nice round figure like that, but I'd need some sources before you convince me
Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species. Researchers have observed monogamy, promiscuity, sex between species, sexual arousal from objects or places, rape, necrophilia, sexual orientation (heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality and situational sexual behaviour) and a range of other practices among animals other than humans. Related studies have noted diversity in sexed bodies and gendered behaviour, such as intersex and transgender animals.

The study of animal sexuality (and primate sexuality especially) is a rapidly developing field. It used to be believed that only humans and a handful of species performed sexual acts other than for procreation, and that animals' sexuality was instinctive and a simple response to the "right" stimulation (sight, scent). Current understanding is that many species believed monogamous have now been proven to be promiscuous or opportunistic in nature, a wide range of species appear to both masturbate and to use objects as tools to help them do so, in many species animals try to give and get sexual stimulation with others where procreation is not the aim, and homosexual behavior has now been observed among 1,500 species, and in 500of those it is well documented

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_...exual_behavior

African Buffalo
African Elephant
Agile Wallaby
Amazon River Dolphin (Boto)
American Bison
Aperea
Asian Elephant
Asiatic Mouflon
Atlantic Spotted Dolphin
Australian Sea Lion
Barasingha
Barbary Sheep
Beluga
Bharal
Bighorn Sheep
Black Bear
Blackbuck
Black-footed Rock Wallaby
Black-tailed Deer
Bonnet Macaque
Bonobo
Bottlenose Dolphin
Bowhead Whale
Bridled Dolphin
Brown Bear
Brown Capuchin
Brown Long-eared Bat
Brown Rat
Caribou
Cat (domestic)
Cattle (domestic)
Cheetah
Collared Peccary
Commerson's Dolphin
Common Brushtail Possum
Common Chimpanzee
Common Dolphin
Common Marmoset
Common Pipistrelle
Common Raccoon
Common Tree Shrew
Cotton-top Tamarin
Crab-eating Macaque
Crested Black Macaque
Cui
Dall's Sheep
Daubenton's Bat
Dog (domestic)
Doria's Tree Kangaroo
Dugong
Dwarf Cavy
Dwarf Mongoose
Eastern Cottontail Rabbit
Eastern Gray Kangaroo
Elk
Euro (a subspecies of wallaroo)
European Bison
Fallow Deer
False Killer Whale
Fat-tailed Dunnart
Fin Whale
Fox
Gelada Baboon
Giraffe
Goat (Domestic)
Golden Monkey
Gorilla
Grant's Gazelle
Gray-headed Flying Fox
Gray Seal
Gray Squirrel
Gray Whale
Gray Wolf
Grizzly Bear
Guinea Pig (Domestic)
Hamadryas Baboon
Hamster (Domestic)
Hanuman Langur
Harbor Porpoise
Harbor Seal
Himalayan Tahr
Hoary Marmot
Horse (domestic)
Human
Indian Fruit Bat
Indian Muntjac
Indian Rhinoceros
Japanese Macaque
Javelina
Kangaroo Rat
Killer Whale
Koala
Kob
Larga Seal
Least Chipmunk
Lechwe
Lesser Bushbaby
Lion
Lion-tailed Macaque
Lion Tamarin
Little Brown Bat
Livingstone's Fruit Bat
Long-eared Hedgehog
Long-footed Tree Shrew
Markhor
Marten
Matschie's Tree Kangaroo
Mohol Galago
Moor Macaque
Moose
Mountain Goat
Mountain Tree Shrew
Mountain Zebra
Mouse (domestic)
Moustached Tamarin
Mule Deer
Musk-ox
Natterer's Bat
New Zealand Sea Lion
Nilgiri Langur
Noctule
North American Porcupine
Northern Elephant Seal
Northern Fur Seal
Northern Quoll
Olympic Marmot
Orangutan
Orca
Pacific Striped Dolphin
Patas Monkey
Pere David's Deer
Pig (Domestic)
Pig-tailed Macaque
Plains Zebra
Polar Bear
Pretty-faced Wallaby
Proboscis Monkey
Pronghorn
Przewalski's Horse
Puku
Quokka
Rabbit
Raccoon Dog
Red Deer
Red Fox
Red Kangaroo
Red-necked Wallaby
Red Squirrel
Reeves's Muntjac
Reindeer
Rhesus Macaque
Right Whale
Rock Cavy
Rodrigues Fruit Bat
Roe Deer
Rufous Bettong
Rufous-naped Tamarin
Rufous Rat Kangaroo
Saddle-back Tamarin
Savanna Baboon
Sea Otter
Serotine Bat
Sheep (Domestic)
Siamang
Sika Deer
Slender Tree Shrew
Sooty Mangabey
Sperm Whale
Spinifex Hopping Mouse
Spinner Dolphin
Spotted Hyena
Spotted Seal
Squirrel Monkey
Striped Dolphin
Stuart's Marsupial Mouse
Stumptail Macaque
Swamp Deer
Swamp Wallaby
Takhi
Talapoin
Tammar Wallaby
Tasmanian Devil
Tasmanian Rat Kangaroo
Thinhorn Sheep
Thomson's Gazelle
Tiger
Tonkean Macaque
Tucuxi
Urial
Vampire Bat
Verreaux's Sifaka
Vervet
Vicuna
Walrus
Wapiti
Warthog
Waterbuck
Water Buffalo
Weeper Capuchin
Western Gray Kangaroo
West Indian Manatee
Whiptail Wallaby
White-faced Capuchin
White-fronted Capuchin
White-handed Gibbon
White-lipped Peccary
White-tailed Deer
Wild Cavy
Wild Goat
Wisent
Yello-footed Rock Wallaby
Yellow-toothed Cavy

[edit] Birds
Acorn Woodpecker
Adelie Penguin
Anna's Hummingbird
Australian Shelduck
Aztec Parakeet
Bangalese Finch (Domestic)
Bank Swallow
Barn Owl
Bicolored Antbird
Black-billed Magpie
Black-crowned Night Heron
Black-headed Gull
Black-rumped Flameback
Black Stilt
Black Swan
Black-winged Stilt
Blue-backed Manakin
Blue-bellied Roller
Blue Tit
Blue-winged Teal
Brown-headed Cowbird
Budgerigar (Domestic)
Buff-breasted Sandpiper
Calfbird
California Gull
Canada Goose
Canary-winged Parakeet
Caspian Tern
Cattle Egret
Chaffinch
Chicken (Domestic)
Chiloe Wigeon
Cliff Swallow
Common Gull
Common Murre
Common Shelduck
Crane spp.
Dusky Moorhen
Eastern Bluebird
Egyptian Goose
Elegant Parrot
Emu
European Jay
European Shag
Flamingo
Galah
Gentoo Penguin
Golden Bishop Bird
Golden Plover
Gray-breasted Jay
Gray-capped Social Weaver
Gray Heron
Grayling
Great Cormorant
Greater Bird of Paradise
Greater Rhea
Green Sandpiper
Greenshank
Greylag Goose
Griffon Vulture
Guianan Cock-of-the-Rock
Guillemot
Herring Gull
Hoary-headed Grebe
Hooded Warbler
House Sparrow
Humboldt Penguin
Ivory Gull
Jackdaw
Kestrel
King Penguin
Kittiwake
Laughing Gull
Laysan Albatross
Least Darter
Lesser Flamingo
Lesser Scaup Duck
Little Blue Heron
Little Egret
Long-tailed Hermit Hummingbird
Mallard
Masked Lovebird
Mealy Amazon Parrot
Mew Gull
Mexican Jay
Musk Duck
Mute Swan
Ocellated Antbird
Ocher-bellied Flycatcher
Orange Bishop Bird
Orange-footed Parakeet
Ornate Lorikeet
Ostrich
Oystercatcher
Peach-faced Lovebird
Pied Flycatcher
Pied Kingfisher
Pigeon (Domestic)
Powerful Owl
Purple Swamphen
Raggiana's Bird of Paradise
Raven
Razorbill
Red-backed Shrike
Red Bishop Bird
Red-faced Lovebird
Redshank
Red-shouldered Widowbird
Regent Bowerbird
Ring-billed Gull
Ring Dove
Rock Dove
Roseate Cockatoo
Roseate Tern
Rose-ringed Parakeet
Ruff
Ruffed Grouse
Sage Grouse
San Blas Jay
Sand Martin
Satin Bowerbird
Scarlet Ibis
Scottish Crossbill
Senegal Parrot
Sharp-tailed Sparrow
Silver Gull
Silvery Grebe
Snow Goose
Steller's Sea Eagle
Superb Lyrebird
Swallow-tailed Manakin
Tasmanian Native Hen
Tree Swallow
Trumpeter Swan
Turkey (Domestic)
Victoria's Riflebird
Wattled Starling
Western Gull
White-fronted Amazon Parrot
White Stork
Wood Duck
Yellow-backed (Chattering) Lorikeet
Yellow-rumped Cacique
Zebra Finch (Domestic)

[edit] Fish
Amazon molly
Blackstripe Topminnow
Bluegill Sunfish
Char
European Bitterling
Green swordtail
Guiana leaffish
Hammerhead
Houting Whitefish
Jewel Fish
Mouthbreeding Fish sp.
Salmon spp.
Southern platyfish
Ten-spined stickleback
Three-spined stickleback

[edit] Other vertebrates
Anole sp.
Appalachian Woodland Salamander
Black-spotted Frog
Broad-headed Skink
Checkered Whiptail Lizard
Chihuahuan Spotted Whiptail Lizard
Common Ameiva
Common Garter Snake
Cuban Green Anole
Desert Grassland Whiptail Lizard
Desert Tortoise
Fence Lizard
Five-lined Skink
Gopher (Pine) Snake
Green Anole
Inagua Curlytail Lizard
Jamaican Giant Anole
Laredo Striped Whiptail Lizard
Largehead Anole
Mountain Dusky Salamander
Mourning Gecko
Plateau Striped Whiptail Lizard
Red Diamond Rattlesnake
Red-tailed Skink
Side-blotched Lizard
Speckled Rattlesnake
Tengger Desert Toad
Water Moccasin
Western Rattlesnake
Western Banded Gecko
Whiptail Lizard spp.
Wood Turtle

[edit] Insects and other invertebrates
Acanthocephalan Worms
Alfalfa Weevil
Australian Parasitic Wasp sp.
Bean Weevil sp.
Bedbug and other Bug spp.
Blister Beetle spp.
Blowfly
Box Crab
Broadwinged Damselfly sp.
Cabbage (Small) White
Checkerspot Butterfly
Clubtail Dragonfly spp.
Cockroach spp.
Common Skimmer Dragonfly spp.
Creeping Water Bug sp.
Digger Bee
Dragonfly spp.
Eastern Giant Ichneumon
Eucalyptus Longhorned Borer
Field Cricket sp.
Fruit Fly spp.
Glasswing Butterfly
Grape Berry Moth
Grape Borer
Green Lacewing
Harvest Spider sp.
Hawaiian Orb-Weaver
Hen Flea
House Fly
Ichneumon Wasp sp.
Incirrate Octopus spp.
Japanese Scarab Beetle
Jumping Spider sp.
Larch Bud Moth
Large Milkweed Bug
Large White
Long-legged Fly spp.
Mazarine Blue
Mediterranean Fruit Fly
Mexican White
Midge sp.
Migratory Locust
Mite sp.
Monarch Butterfly
Narrow-winged Damselfly spp.
Parsnip Leaf Miner
Pomace Fly
Prea
Queen Butterfly
Red Ant sp.
Red Flour Beetle
Reindeer Warble Fly
Rosechafer
Rove Beetle spp.
Scarab Beetle, Melolonthine
Screwworm Fly
Silkworm Moth
Sociable Weaver
Southeastern Blueberry Bee
Southern Green Stink Bug
Southern Masked Chafer
Southern One-Year Canegrub
Spreadwinged Damselfly spp.
Spruce Budworm Moth
Stable Fly sp.
Stag Beetle spp.
Tsetse Fly
Water Boatman Bug
Water Strider spp.




[edit] Sources
Bagemihl, Bruce. Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. St. Martin's Press, 1999. ISBN 0-312-19239-8
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior"
Reply

Zulkiflim
01-13-2007, 10:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Then lets leave it to god. Or do you think god needs your help to keep other people in line?

Salaam,

Muslim are supposed to keep each other in line.

Each individual are supposed to keep each other in line.
Or dont your parent teach you anything..

did you not learn the concept of honesty,truth and justice from your predecessor?
Or do you make it up yourself.

Like wise laws are made and the divine law makes clear that gay and lesbian are an abomination.
their action are despicable and they should refrain from it.
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
01-14-2007, 12:36 AM
wow@ the Animal Kingdom

what happened?:D

no i don't believe a gay lion exist anywhere in Africa

thats a 300 pounds killing machine right there

don't expect any funny-walking from the King:blind:
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-15-2007, 08:57 AM
it seems the the sinfuls latest justification for behaving like beasts, like dogs, humping anything in the street is well that some dogs and other beasts behave in this way...

strange logic really. i suppose this is what comes when people follow darwinism and see themselves as no different to animals.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Zone Maker
01-15-2007, 01:46 PM
:sl:

Strange trying to justify such filth by pointing out that animals do it. The same creature's that use violence as a daily way of living. So basically I can justify any act referring to animals (such as murder, homosexuality, burglary, treachery, etc). Glad that I am a Muslim.:phew

:w:
Reply

Malaikah
01-15-2007, 01:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Then lets leave it to god. Or do you think god needs your help to keep other people in line?
And the law/courts/jails exist for what exactly...? To look pretty?:?

Why don't we just leave it to God to deal with the murders, rapists, thieves, and put away our legal system?:rollseyes

And before you say it isn't a valid point- homosexuality is a crime in Islam, just like tradition crimes are a crime because they effect other people, so to does homosexuality (by spreading corruption and immorality in the land/society)... and again before you say that it is none of our business what people do in their own privacy, that is true, it is between them and God... but when they make it public, it isn't between them and God anymore, because the public have become aware of it and are influenced by it.
Reply

root
01-15-2007, 07:51 PM
Nice to see homophobia is alive and well within Islm, spare a thought the next time you come accross the word "Islamaphobia"..............

I watched a stoning to death on video the other day, all those humble loyal and faithfull servents/slaves of allah digging a hole in the ground, lowering the "sinners" into the pit so the shoulders and head were visible. with a white bag covering from toe to head, then everyone threw "regulated size" stones until the "victims were dead"

The crowd were very excited by it all, and seemed to enjoy the pain, suffering and death inflicted upon those people and I thought

"yes, Islam. The way of peace and compassion from a forgiving god" No doubt for gay people, you would simply throw them off the highest point. Just like your compassionate and peace loving god claims...........

Animals, seem to have better morals at times.................
Reply

Muezzin
01-15-2007, 07:56 PM
Root, what was the point of that little tirade? Why are you painting with such broad strokes that you make Islam itself look like a barbaric religion, rather than just a group of bloodthirsty idiots in the video you mentioned? Are you not aware that you have now, by generalising, sunk to the level of those homophobic Muslims you seem to dislike so much? If you are aware, do you feel somehow better about yourself by posting anti-Islamic rhetoric in revenge for the views expressed by certain Muslims on this thread?

Or am I grossly overanalysing what is simply a hissy fit of sorts?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-15-2007, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Religions have always justified inequality and discrimination by calling it god's will. It is just Homophobia and other concepts of superority.
a man has lost all shame and completely let loose his values when he is ok with his brother/sister/mother/father being a homosexual. Can you imagine your own daughter being with another woman? doesnt this make you sick?

ok i could understand if your talking about inequality towards race/age/gendre etc but your talking about homosexuals... they cant even reproduce. You'd expect them to take the sign, ITS NOT NORMAL!!
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-15-2007, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Nice to see homophobia is alive and well within Islm, spare a thought the next time you come accross the word "Islamaphobia"..............

I watched a stoning to death on video the other day, all those humble loyal and faithfull servents/slaves of allah digging a hole in the ground, lowering the "sinners" into the pit so the shoulders and head were visible. with a white bag covering from toe to head, then everyone threw "regulated size" stones until the "victims were dead"

The crowd were very excited by it all, and seemed to enjoy the pain, suffering and death inflicted upon those people and I thought

"yes, Islam. The way of peace and compassion from a forgiving god" No doubt for gay people, you would simply throw them off the highest point. Just like your compassionate and peace loving god claims...........

Animals, seem to have better morals at times.................
seemed cruel didnt it? if only you could see the punishment which waits for them in the hereafter.

if a gay man repents then Allaah is the most merciful, but when the people have tried to help him, given him all avenues, extended his arms of mercy and yet the man defies and insists in his perverted dispicible nature then as sad as it seems its this man who brings the suffering unto himself !
Reply

Muezzin
01-15-2007, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Then lets leave it to god. Or do you think god needs your help to keep other people in line?
By that logic, we'd leave drug abusers to God, too. After all, they're only hurting themselves and nobody else. Nope, they don't need any help from their fellow man whatsoever.

NOTE: I am not equating drug abusers with homosexuals. I am not saying homosexuals need to be 'corrected' or anything of the sort. I am simply pointing out the fallacy of that 'leave it to God' principle.

Of course, you will now attempt to discredit my argument because I am Muslim, therefore incapable of making an unbiased decision about such matters, and, per your agenda, I am merely being the good little religious homophobe that my faith tells me to be, as if my beliefs rob me of my opinions.
Reply

Fishman
01-15-2007, 08:29 PM
:sl:
I think most Muslims here except possibly Muezzin seem to think that gays make a choice to have homosexual desires. As stated by the following Fatwa, the desires themselves are not haram, it's liking those desires and acting upon them that is:
http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=631&main_cat_id=33

The People of Lut (pbuh) did not simply have feelings towards men, they followed them and endulged in them to the extreme. These actions are what the Quran condemns, not people who have gay feelings but hate them and want to be straight!

I think people need to keep some sense here. Why on Earth would any straight person choose to be gay?
:w:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-15-2007, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I think most Muslims here except possibly Muezzin seem to think that gays make a choice to have homosexual desires. As stated by the following Fatwa, the desires themselves are not haram, it's liking those desires and acting upon them that is:
http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=631&main_cat_id=33

The People of Lut (pbuh) did not simply have feelings towards men, they followed them and endulged in them to the extreme. These actions are what the Quran condemns, not people who have gay feelings but hate them and want to be straight!

I think people need to keep some sense here. Why on Earth would any straight person choose to be gay?
:w:

a man is not considered a gay till he acts towards his desires and openly declares it thus releasing all shame !
Reply

Fishman
01-15-2007, 08:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
a man is not considered a gay till he acts towards his desires and openly declares it thus releasing all shame !
:sl:
I kind of agree with that. Unfortunately when we say that we disagree with homosexuality, non-Muslims misread our opinions...
:w:
Reply

KAding
01-15-2007, 09:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I kind of agree with that. Unfortunately when we say that we disagree with homosexuality, non-Muslims misread our opinions...
:w:
Well, many non-Muslims in the West think it is unreasonable to expect them to simply suppress their sexuality. Besides, these same people probably disagree that that homosexual sex would be more immoral or disgusting than hetrosexual sex. So the is not really about misreading.
Reply

wilberhum
01-16-2007, 02:20 AM
Homophobia that is all it is, no more no less. How sick.
All of you who so eagerly get in line to justify your hate and discrimination are the first to scream when it is pointed it you.
Why aren’t you out condemning all those that eat pork?
When it comes to sex you must have more hang-ups than a cloak closet.
What a sad lot that concerns them with what others do that does not affect them.
I guess you just feel required to do that to confirm your superiority over others.
Those that justify there discrimination are the sickest and most discussing of humanity.
No wonder Islamaphobia is growing.
Reply

north_malaysian
01-16-2007, 03:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
People who have homosexual desires, but hate being homosexual
Isn't that amounted to "hypocrisy"?

Have the desire but hate having that desire....:rollseyes

Maybe we should say "People who have homosexual desires, but refrain themselves from doing homosexual acts"

But if a man having desires for male only, suddenly marrying a woman, isn't that like 'cheating' the wife?

Are there methods to decrease/destroy the homosexual desires?:rollseyes
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-16-2007, 08:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Homophobia that is all it is, no more no less. How sick.
All of you who so eagerly get in line to justify your hate and discrimination are the first to scream when it is pointed it you.
Why aren’t you out condemning all those that eat pork?
When it comes to sex you must have more hang-ups than a cloak closet.
What a sad lot that concerns them with what others do that does not affect them.
I guess you just feel required to do that to confirm your superiority over others.
Those that justify there discrimination are the sickest and most discussing of humanity.
No wonder Islamaphobia is growing.
why would i condemn eating pork on a thread about homosexuality?
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-16-2007, 08:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Isn't that amounted to "hypocrisy"?

Have the desire but hate having that desire....:rollseyes

Maybe we should say "People who have homosexual desires, but refrain themselves from doing homosexual acts"

But if a man having desires for male only, suddenly marrying a woman, isn't that like 'cheating' the wife?

Are there methods to decrease/destroy the homosexual desires?:rollseyes
yes, there are such methods but it requires good taqwa and action and from that it becomes easier to remove such immoral desires in just the same way as a habitual thief can stop thieving and i am sure he will see opportunities to steal all the time but can resist if he is a good practicing muslim and knows that even though he thinks no one knows what he is doing, Allah always knows.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

Malaikah
01-16-2007, 09:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Those that justify there discrimination are the sickest and most discussing of humanity.
Yeh, smart people like to discuss stuff before they make up their minds... ;D
Reply

Muezzin
01-16-2007, 09:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Homophobia that is all it is, no more no less. How sick.
All of you who so eagerly get in line to justify your hate and discrimination are the first to scream when it is pointed it you.
Why aren’t you out condemning all those that eat pork?
When it comes to sex you must have more hang-ups than a cloak closet.
What a sad lot that concerns them with what others do that does not affect them.
I guess you just feel required to do that to confirm your superiority over others.
Those that justify there discrimination are the sickest and most discussing of humanity.
No wonder Islamaphobia is growing.
If that diatribe was in reference to my post, I suggest you read it again without prejudice this time. If it was not, I suggest you stop making generalisations. It makes it look as if you have a superiority complex.
Reply

Snowflake
01-16-2007, 10:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Homophobia that is all it is, no more no less. How sick.
All of you who so eagerly get in line to justify your hate and discrimination are the first to scream when it is pointed it you.
Why aren’t you out condemning all those that eat pork?
When it comes to sex you must have more hang-ups than a cloak closet.
What a sad lot that concerns them with what others do that does not affect them.
I guess you just feel required to do that to confirm your superiority over others.
Those that justify there discrimination are the sickest and most discussing of humanity.
No wonder Islamaphobia is growing.
I think you're a tad confused there Wilberhum. What's discrimination against homosexuality got to do with pork or islamophobia? Muslims aren't the only one's discriminatiing against it. So are the Christians & Jews. And in case you haven't notice muslims also condemn muslims practicing homosexuality. What you fail to see is that all normal societies see homosexuality as a social disease that is recognised by all the major religions.

When it comes to sex you must have more hang-ups than a cloak closet.
lol, if having hang-ups means being straight i.e normal, then yes we have hang-ups.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
01-16-2007, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Homophobia that is all it is, no more no less. How sick.
All of you who so eagerly get in line to justify your hate and discrimination are the first to scream when it is pointed it you.
Why aren’t you out condemning all those that eat pork?
When it comes to sex you must have more hang-ups than a cloak closet.
What a sad lot that concerns them with what others do that does not affect them.
I guess you just feel required to do that to confirm your superiority over others.
Those that justify there discrimination are the sickest and most discussing of humanity.
No wonder Islamaphobia is growing.
Actually that is not right. No-one has the right to condemn another person, we can condemn a certain act though. Saying something among the lines of "that act of that person is wrong. But that doesn't mean the whole person is wrong and every single thing he does is wrong.
Reply

wilberhum
01-17-2007, 05:09 AM
Homophobia is an interesting phenomenon. What I find most interesting is that people usually use god as an excuse to justify there hatred.
But then I guess that can easily be explained if you examine some personal concepts of the nature of god. In today’s world events there are daily cases of torture and executions solely based on religious sect. On this form and another that I use to participate in, there are numerous examples where people justify killing people because of there religious choices or personal activates.
There are cases where they glorify those who kill innocent people and you never hear condemnation of those that innocent people as a matter of course. But then all you have to is redefine the meaning of innocent. In fact I see a lot of redefining to make distortions sound realistic.
There are always posts complaining about the discrimination that is aimed at them but are right there justifying there decimation of others.
But then I guess you can justify any thing if you conceder your self superior. Look how well it worked for Hitler.
But then I don’t know why I waist my time writing this. Those that justify there hatred of other who have done nothing to harm them are beyond the ability to understand the concept of tolerance.
So enjoy your hatred. You only harm yourself because no one you hate really cares what you think.
If there is a god and he is a just god, some will surly experience his justice for fostering hearted in his name.

So enjoy your hatred, I have nothing else to say.
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-17-2007, 08:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Homophobia is an interesting phenomenon. What I find most interesting is that people usually use god as an excuse to justify there hatred.
But then I guess that can easily be explained if you examine some personal concepts of the nature of god. In today’s world events there are daily cases of torture and executions solely based on religious sect. On this form and another that I use to participate in, there are numerous examples where people justify killing people because of there religious choices or personal activates.
There are cases where they glorify those who kill innocent people and you never hear condemnation of those that innocent people as a matter of course. But then all you have to is redefine the meaning of innocent. In fact I see a lot of redefining to make distortions sound realistic.
There are always posts complaining about the discrimination that is aimed at them but are right there justifying there decimation of others.
But then I guess you can justify any thing if you conceder your self superior. Look how well it worked for Hitler.
But then I don’t know why I waist my time writing this. Those that justify there hatred of other who have done nothing to harm them are beyond the ability to understand the concept of tolerance.
So enjoy your hatred. You only harm yourself because no one you hate really cares what you think.
If there is a god and he is a just god, some will surly experience his justice for fostering hearted in his name.

So enjoy your hatred, I have nothing else to say.
hi,

look i dont hate gays, therefore i become religious and justify my hatred. i dislike their activities because they are sinful, and my views on that changed quite a lot when i become muslim.

i dislike gays because God has told me what they do is immoral, as i follow the Quran and sunnah totally or at least try to do, but i dont hate guys, i dislike their activities

Abu Abdullah
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-17-2007, 09:54 AM
also im pretty sure none of us literally fear gays, im pretty sure we just hate the sickness in their hearts.

I guess an aethiest will never understand the immorality until he accepts God...
Reply

Khattab
01-18-2007, 12:01 AM
Do people who accept homosexulity accept peodophilia too? As many paedophiles claim they where born with such desires and they cant help it? If not then what gives you the right to say you dont accept there acts but accept what homosexuals take part in? What if a child agrees to take part in what they do and the peodophilia gets there consent?
Reply

root
01-18-2007, 08:39 AM
Do people who accept homosexulity accept peodophilia too? As many paedophiles claim they where born with such desires and they cant help it? If not then what gives you the right to say you dont accept there acts but accept what homosexuals take part in? What if a child agrees to take part in what they do and the peodophilia gets there consent?
A peodophile cannot obtain consent from an underage person so both homosexual/hetresexual sex is illegal with underage person!

Also, what about this?

Deep in the national medical archives of the American Medical databases lies an intriguing case of a man in his thirties, A normal healthy male who was happily married with two children and loving father and husband. Much to everyone’s surprise he was arrested for child pornography and molestation of his own daughter. Dealt with by the society within the remit of the criminal system and sentenced to 12 years imprisonment. In prison his interest in child pornography increased and so did a constant headache, which mirrored in timing to his change in sexual behaviour. After complaining constantly of severe and worsening headaches he was subjected to a brain scan, which revealed a brain tumour which incidentally was pushing against the section of the brain which was responsible for human sexual behaviour. After an operation to remove the tumour his sexual interests returned to “normal” and his drive for child pornography abated. 6 months later, his sexual desires once again started to change and his brain was scanned again revealing that the tumour had returned in the same location following the failure of the surgeon to remove all the tumour cells. Removal of the second tumour again resulted in his sexual desires returning to normal.
Reply

Malaikah
01-18-2007, 08:59 AM
^That is so amazing. Do you have a source?

And btw, what are you trying to prove with that? :?
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-18-2007, 09:10 AM
he is saying homosexuals cannot help it, yes there are certain things that can cause such problems but that doesnt let the vast majority of the sick individuals who practice homosexuality off the hook.

look, there are such problems that cause people to become violently derranged but that doesnt mean all murderers cannot help it and so we should not punish them for their sin of murder.

some people could have physical illness that mean they become homosexual, some could have pychological illess, some mental illness but most have an illness of the heart where they dont value the laws of Allah and so do as they please to fulfil sick desires they already or follow the whispering of shaitan and do haram when they dont have to.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Khattab
01-18-2007, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
A peodophile cannot obtain consent from an underage person so both homosexual/hetresexual sex is illegal with underage person!

Also, what about this?

Deep in the national medical archives of the American Medical databases lies an intriguing case of a man in his thirties, A normal healthy male who was happily married with two children and loving father and husband. Much to everyone’s surprise he was arrested for child pornography and molestation of his own daughter. Dealt with by the society within the remit of the criminal system and sentenced to 12 years imprisonment. In prison his interest in child pornography increased and so did a constant headache, which mirrored in timing to his change in sexual behaviour. After complaining constantly of severe and worsening headaches he was subjected to a brain scan, which revealed a brain tumour which incidentally was pushing against the section of the brain which was responsible for human sexual behaviour. After an operation to remove the tumour his sexual interests returned to “normal” and his drive for child pornography abated. 6 months later, his sexual desires once again started to change and his brain was scanned again revealing that the tumour had returned in the same location following the failure of the surgeon to remove all the tumour cells. Removal of the second tumour again resulted in his sexual desires returning to normal.
If you give homosexuals there rights why do you deny the right of the peodophile? As I said before if consent was given by the child who are you to say this child doesnt know its feelings and desires? (A child refers to anyone under the age of 16)

If you told someone even 20-30 years ago that gays would have all these rights thy would have never believed you, because much of society was against such acts. This has changed over recent years and now homosexuilty is seen as normal. Now who is to say peoples attitudes will not change in 30 years towards pedophiles?

Pedophile activism

The pedophile activism movement, referred to by some supporters as the childlove movement, is a social movement that encompasses a wide variety of views, but generally advocates one or more of the following: social acceptance of adults' romantic or sexual attraction to children; social acceptance of adults' sexual activity with children; and changes in institutions of concern to pedophiles, such as changing age-of-consent laws and mental illness classifications. The movement is extremely unpopular and has made little progress toward these goals. The most high profile pedophile activism group is NAMBLA. NAMBLA advocates the legalization of sexual relationships between men and boys.


I remember a thread Root where the purpose of life was being talked about and you said the purpose of life was to pro-create, so are homosexuals for you not fulfilling their purpose? If the purpose of human biengs is to pro-create then surely they arent doing what is required of them? And would you be against it if everyone in the world where homosexuals?
Reply

Zulkiflim
01-20-2007, 08:24 AM
Salaam,
For all the discussion here,i sincerely hope i do not see that any muslim would condone what Allah has forbade.

The western world and the western religion has been chaged by man desires.
Gay and lesbians are now intract into the Chrisitan/Catholic and Judaic faith.
And since they cnat do anything to then in their own religion,they thus do not wish to have anyone who follow the true teaching.

Sin loves company ,and when the contrast is clear,they seek to oppress us and demean us for following our religon,knowing full well it is also in their own books.

So let us be the sign of hyprocrisy for them.
Reply

j4763
01-20-2007, 01:13 PM
If you told someone even 20-30 years ago that gays would have all these rights thy would have never believed you, because much of society was against such acts. This has changed over recent years and now homosexuilty is seen as normal. Now who is to say peoples attitudes will not change in 30 years towards pedophiles?
Same goes for womans rights, 50-60 years ago they didn't have all the rights they do now (well in the western world anyways). Is that a bad thing now?

Peoples attitudes will never change about the act of pedo's because a child can simple not grasp the concept of sex which even today is associated with love and and no child is mentally prepared for that feeling of love adults have for one another. And imo not even 16 year olds.
Reply

Khattab
01-20-2007, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
Same goes for womans rights, 50-60 years ago they didn't have all the rights they do now (well in the western world anyways). Is that a bad thing now?

Peoples attitudes will never change about the act of pedo's because a child can simple not grasp the concept of sex which even today is associated with love and and no child is mentally prepared for that feeling of love adults have for one another. And imo not even 16 year olds.
Yes its good the West finally gave women there rights, but what I am saying is 50-60 years ago it was unheard of, and people didnt deem such things possible. The same could be said for paedophiles at the moment we think peodophilia will never be allowed but who is to say one day certain groups that are campainging for "paedophile rights" will not get there way?

If you allow homosexuality I dont think you can say give homosexuals the right to do what they want but not peodophiles? Just because its not acceptable to you, you cant pick and choose and not allow a paedophile his rights. Who are you to allow one person his rights and deny another person his? You are ruling by your expectations. We rule by what Allah (SWT) has revealed not by our own desires and lusts.

People who where saying muslims and other faith groups are homophobic because they dont agree with homosexuality well then are you not paedophobic? Im just pointing out certain peoples hypocrisy.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-21-2007, 06:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khattab
Yes its good the West finally gave women there rights, but what I am saying is 50-60 years ago it was unheard of, and people didnt deem such things possible.
Same with blacks.

Same with atheists.

Did you know that 50 years ago athiests were forbidden in America to testify in court or hold public office?

I don't see your point though. Times change and sometimes attitudes change too.

If you allow homosexuality I dont think you can say give homosexuals the right to do what they want but not peodophiles?
Slippery Slope? What about bestiality (puppy love?)? Polygamy?

Just because its not acceptable to you, you cant pick and choose and not allow a paedophile his rights.
With pedophiles it more a question of children's ability to consent than it is the adults right to sex/marry.

In some cultures, including early Islamic culture if I'm not mistaken, the age of consent was much lower. People were marrying in their teens or even younger. We'd call that pedophilia by today's cultural norms.

If the culture deems children not mature enough to consent then pedophilia is the same as rape. If children ARE mature enough to choose, then that goes way beyond pedophelia. THey would then logically be ok to buy cigarettes and drive cars and vote, etc.
Reply

Malaikah
01-21-2007, 09:14 AM
^That is the problem though isn't it? The culture. That is basically what rights and laws and stuff are based on, culture, something that is every changing. It doesn't make sense that something is illegal one day and legal the next.

The good thing about Islam, we don't this problem, our laws aren't based on something as unpredictable as what the culture will be like 20 years down the track, they are the universal laws of God.
Reply

Akil
01-21-2007, 10:26 AM
Firstly, homosexuality is not the same as or similar to pedophilia. Calling homosexuality similar to pedophilia is exactly like calling marriage similar to rape.

Second, whether or not homosexuality is a choice, psychological or biological is beside the point. The point is that a democratic government has no business making moral or ethical decisions for its citizens.

Once we give them one freedom, they will take another and then another and then another. Then we will be without freedom, subject to the whims of a Christian theocracy we created through our own indifference.

Lastly no one should try to convince you what to believe about homosexuals or the gay lifestyle. If you believe it is immoral and or wrong continue to do so, your beliefs are your own. But these beliefs are no reason to hate.

Hate is never right or good and never leads to anything positive.

In the end, in my opinion Muslims shouldn’t treat a homosexual any different than someone who drinks alcohol, has premarital sex and listens to metal ( like me >.< )
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-21-2007, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
^That is the problem though isn't it? The culture. That is basically what rights and laws and stuff are based on, culture, something that is every changing. It doesn't make sense that something is illegal one day and legal the next.
Well only for the abritrary things. There are basic ethics derived from empathy and social harmony (charity is good, theft is bad, etc) and then there are socially constructed taboos (homosexuality is bad, sex with people under abritrarily chosen age is bad, you shalt not eat shellfish, taboo words, etc). The former isn't likely to chage, the latter changes constantly.

Religions often codify the moral values of the time and followers thereafter then sometimes telling the basic ethics from the socially constructed ones. I'm sure that when the bible was written some of the things it forbids made sense to the writers. But today, many of them make little or no sense at all. And sometimes it even becomes counter productive (ie Jehovas witnesses denying their children life saving medical procedures - brutal child abuse in my view)
Reply

Malaikah
01-21-2007, 12:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Well only for the abritrary things. There are basic ethics derived from empathy and social harmony (charity is good, theft is bad, etc) and then there are socially constructed taboos (homosexuality is bad, sex with people under abritrarily chosen age is bad, you shalt not eat shellfish, taboo words, etc). The former isn't likely to chage, the latter changes constantly.
You have a point, but I personally think the things that do change are really very significant themselves and deserve to be something that is fixed. But with out religion you can never have that.

(ie Jehovas witnesses denying their children life saving medical procedures - brutal child abuse in my view)
Why? :uuh: What is wrong with medicines?
Reply

Woodrow
01-21-2007, 12:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
You have a point, but I personally think the things that do change are really very significant themselves and deserve to be something that is fixed. But with out religion you can never have that.



Why? :uuh: What is wrong with medicines?
JW's will allow most medicines. They are against blood transfusions so that eliminates any surgery as most surgery requires transfusions.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-21-2007, 12:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
JW's will allow most medicines. They are against blood transfusions so that eliminates any surgery as most surgery requires transfusions.

Correct. And too many children have died because of the dictates of their PARENTS' religious views. It should be criminal, and actually in many (most now?) places it is.
Reply

root
01-21-2007, 01:26 PM
It's been an interesting thread and I for one support a Government protecting the freedom of it's subjects from religous homophobia especially at the hands of Islam and it's homophobic laws.

Not to allow Gay people the right to a double bed on religous grounds is prejudice via religion, if it's allowed then it's also fair for hotels to refuse double beds to people who are not married because of a given religous moral. I would be annoyed if I was questioned to conclude if I was or was not married.

Bottom line for me especially after some of the comments on this thread is that homosexuals need such protection from the religous homophobes out thier, I support this law that gives such protections not just for Homosexuals but unmarried couples, blacks, christians and muslims alike,

No room at the inn cos your a muslim is as wrong as no room in the in cos your a homo or no room at the inn cos your not married.........

Khattab - I remember a thread Root where the purpose of life was being talked about and you said the purpose of life was to pro-create, so are homosexuals for you not fulfilling their purpose? If the purpose of human biengs is to pro-create then surely they arent doing what is required of them? And would you be against it if everyone in the world where homosexuals?
"if"..........?

I would also be against "if" everyone in the world being a suicide bomber :? I stand by what I said since evolution works through safety in numbers
Reply

Malaikah
01-21-2007, 01:42 PM
Root,

I will agree with you only because it is a country that is not governed by any religion, and therefore has no right to discriminate against people for what they believe is morally wrong. Not that I agree with the system itself though, but since this is what the country is based on, then it goes for everyone.

On the other hand, God does have that right to dictate to us what is morally correct and what is not, so do not expect that active gays would have or even deserve to have any rights in an Islamic state.

It shocks me that it takes something radical like this for many people to actually release that the country they live in is governed based on what feels right at the moment, at least when it comes to morals and ethics anyway. Or do people really think they are living in a religious country where evil would never be given any rights? Maybe this will come as a reality check for some.

I personally think it is a double standard when Muslims act so against gay people, and yet they might not be as much against non-Muslims who are fornicators, heavy drinkers, gamblers etc... Although this could be seen as a way in which the society we live in has made us to become almost immune to these kinds of things, we are exposed to them so often that the shock value has tragically decreased.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-21-2007, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
so do not expect that active gays would have or even deserve to have any rights in an Islamic state.
That is the saddest thing I've heard you say yet.

No rights? Not any? Surely you don't mean that. If you do, then this is good reason to be anti-islamic.
Reply

Akil
01-21-2007, 09:34 PM
Those who choose a homosexual life style should probably avoid a Muslim government, just like a Muslim who wishes to deny the rights of homosexuals should avoid a Democracy.
Reply

Khattab
01-21-2007, 11:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Same with blacks.

Same with atheists.

Did you know that 50 years ago athiests were forbidden in America to testify in court or hold public office?

I don't see your point though. Times change and sometimes attitudes change too.



Slippery Slope? What about bestiality (puppy love?)? Polygamy?
What Im saying is if you go around calling those who are against homosexuals, not tolerant and some how backwards then its just hypocrosy, what about Incest, why are those who want to take part in it not given the right to do so? If you give one people there rights then give it to everyone, no? But this is where mankind fails when they rule by there own desires it is inevatibly going to end in disaster, you will get people who want to make everything allowed, peodophilia, incest etc, there are already groups set up campainging for these things, and if you accept homosexuality and go around calling everyone against it homophobic then you are just a hypocrite if you dont accept the other mentioned things.



With pedophiles it more a question of children's ability to consent than it is the adults right to sex/marry.
Yes but everyone matures at different ages, have you not heard gays say something along the lines "Ever since I was young I knew I was gay", so who are we then to say a child doesnt love a certain man or women and have extra feelings for them? You cant say there feelings arent true and its a phase because even when people grow up there feelings change.

Would you allow a kid who said he/she was sure of there feelings the right to go with a certain man or women or would you deny him/her there right and say they dont know there feelings?

In some cultures, including early Islamic culture if I'm not mistaken, the age of consent was much lower. People were marrying in their teens or even younger. We'd call that pedophilia by today's cultural norms.

If the culture deems children not mature enough to consent then pedophilia is the same as rape. If children ARE mature enough to choose, then that goes way beyond pedophelia. THey would then logically be ok to buy cigarettes and drive cars and vote, etc.
In Islam when someone reaches puberty they are considered as an adult and when they can comprehend marriage then it is permissable for them to marry.
Reply

Khattab
01-21-2007, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root



"if"..........?

I would also be against "if" everyone in the world being a suicide bomber :? I stand by what I said since evolution works through safety in numbers
Please answer my initial question, you said the purpose of life was to pro-create, so going by your theory homosexuals then dont have a purpose.

So are homosexuals fulfilling there purpose? And what is there purpose?
Reply

Malaikah
01-22-2007, 03:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
No rights? Not any? Surely you don't mean that. If you do, then this is good reason to be anti-islamic.
It depends what you mean by 'no rights'. They haven't the right to be gay, but if they are gay and don't get caught well that is between them and God. But otherwise the rest of their rights are the same as anyone else's.

format_quote Originally Posted by Akil
Those who choose a homosexual life style should probably avoid a Muslim government, just like a Muslim who wishes to deny the rights of homosexuals should avoid a Democracy.
Exactly.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-22-2007, 06:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khattab
In Islam when someone reaches puberty they are considered as an adult and when they can comprehend marriage then it is permissable for them to marry.
Is that also the age that they are allowed to drive etc? Or are there various ages of maturity?
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-22-2007, 06:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
It depends what you mean by 'no rights'.
Depends what you mean, as you said "no rights". Just clarifying that potentially truly nasty statement.

They haven't the right to be gay, but if they are gay and don't get caught well that is between them and God.
Is there an Islamic punishment for engaging in homosexual behaviour?
Reply

Malaikah
01-22-2007, 06:25 AM
^Er I am sure I explained what I meant by no rights. Do you still want me to explain more?:?

And yes, there is a punishment, death.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-22-2007, 06:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
And yes, there is a punishment, death.
:skeleton:

So it isn't anti-islamic propaganda when people tell me that Muslims want to kill homosexuals?
Reply

Zulkiflim
01-22-2007, 07:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
:skeleton:

So it isn't anti-islamic propaganda when people tell me that Muslims want to kill homosexuals?
Salaaam,

The rule is different.

Islam say that for men to fornicate with othr men,when caught thy will be punished.
Maybe thir death maybe something else.

They are not killed for being homosexual or thinking they are homosexual.

They are punished after doing homosexual activities.

I remember a hadith saying that if a man does not have the lust for a woman,but for a man,he should then abstain.
For it is better to get married but worser if he cannot be true.
Reply

Malaikah
01-22-2007, 07:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
So it isn't anti-islamic propaganda when people tell me that Muslims want to kill homosexuals?
Well there are conditions. I do not know what they are though, I only know what they are for adultery.

For example, with adultery, there has to be four trustworthy witnesses who see the actual act itself happening before they can be confirmed guilty.

I would assume that parallels could be drawn with homosexuality... also I do not know if it applies to non-Muslims living in an Islamic state. Perhaps someone else can answer that.
Reply

Muhammad
01-22-2007, 02:23 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by root
It's been an interesting thread and I for one support a Government protecting the freedom of it's subjects from religous homophobia especially at the hands of Islam and it's homophobic laws.
It was mentioned on another thread on in this forum that a phobia has more to do with fear than it has to do with hatred. Someone even said that, "if I am a Homophobe for example then I am not hateful towards Homoseuals, but just don't understand them, and do not wish to interact with them. A Homophobe does not nessesarily hate Gays." What then, does the word 'homophobic" have to do with Islam? Islam knows full well what homosexuality is and does not teach fear of people with such inclinations. Rather, it teaches us to help and warn people with these inclinations as homosexual acts are forbidden by God.

Details of how homosexuals would be treated in an Islamic state and discussions on this topic have already been mentioned elsewhere on the forum. See for example:

http://www.islamicboard.com/556617-post29.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...being-gay.html

Peace.
Reply

root
01-23-2007, 10:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings,

It was mentioned on another thread on in this forum that a phobia has more to do with fear than it has to do with hatred. Someone even said that, "if I am a Homophobe for example then I am not hateful towards Homoseuals, but just don't understand them, and do not wish to interact with them. A Homophobe does not nessesarily hate Gays." What then, does the word 'homophobic" have to do with Islam? Islam knows full well what homosexuality is and does not teach fear of people with such inclinations. Rather, it teaches us to help and warn people with these inclinations as homosexual acts are forbidden by God.

Details of how homosexuals would be treated in an Islamic state and discussions on this topic have already been mentioned elsewhere on the forum. See for example:

http://www.islamicboard.com/556617-post29.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...being-gay.html

Peace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia

I find the below a result of homophobia, the recipient's live in fear for thier lives. You can attempt to water down homophobic attitudes as "we don't undesrtand them, we don't want to engage with them". But I don't see in your text people running in fear of thier lives........ and that is the force of homophobia.......

In Iran today homosexuality is punished by arrest and even death, which makes coming out' practically impossible. Every lesbian and gay lives in almost complete isolation and panic lest school-mates, an employer or a family member become suspicious. Those who dare confide their secret know that if it gets out, shame will fall on the entire family.

They daren't even have books, magazines or any information about homosexuality because it could be found by a family member or by the police searching for forbidden items like political propaganda against the regime or alcohol and drugs.

Gay bars have been closed since the time of the Shah so homosexuals are forced to meet in parks, which are raided regularly by civilian-clothed police or 'guardists'. They demand identification and anyone who hesitates is immediately suspect. Gays revealing the slightest 'soft' or feminine characteristics are beaten and kicked or given electric shocks to different parts of the body. If the police feel they have captured a particularly 'dangerous' homosexual, he is humiliated and raped before being executed.

Lesbians especially lead intolerable lives. Forced to marry through family pressure, those who show no interest in sexual relations are accused of failing to obey their husbands, which under Islam is grounds for divorce - often preceded by a long period of humiliation and beatings.

Divorce brings even greater isolation and oppression: because the woman is no longer a virgin, her family fears she will misbehave sexually unless kept under constant supervision. Suspicions that she might be lesbian fuel their hostility.

Because the media tells Iranians incessantly that homosexuals who have been arrested are rapists and paedophiles, most people are very ignorant about homosexuality. Many believe AIDS is a justified punishment for those living sinful lives. Many lesbians and gays themselves believe they are the victims of disease or mental disorder.

It has not always been so, of course. In the Middle Ages the poets and writers of Persia wrote warm and beautiful sentiments about homosexual relationships. Even during the brutal repression of the Shah's regime, when political dissidents were arrested and executed, at least homosexuality was not outlawed. On the contrary, the pretence of adhering to Western culture gave gay people greater psychological freedom. And even if legislation did not protect homosexuals from arrest, there was little evidence of persecution.

But when the Shah fell, the ayatollahs and fundamentalist mullahs (priests) introduced a new morality, and religious fanatics began hunting down leftists and intellectual critics of the regime. Lesbians and gays were soon included on the published list of enemies' of the new rulers. And before long they were being rounded up in droves.

The first execution I read about in the Iranian papers came not long after the Shah's fall: a homosexual soldier who was killed after being caught having sex with a mullah. Since then lesbians and gays have been arrested and executed in ever-growing numbers - often having been severely tortured to make them confess the names of their friends and sexual contacts.

I soon realized that I had to leave my home country. Even if I refrained from being an activist and never again submitted a single article to an underground newspaper, my life would be in constant jeopardy: at any moment a friend being tortured inside a prison could reveal my name. Arrest would not only end my life but also disgrace my entire family. And how many names would I reveal once they started beating me on the soles of my feet, or hanging me from iron bars?

Eventually I fled to Sweden. But even in exile, none of us are safe. We live in terror of the Iranian fundamentalists who are eager to wipe out 'deviants', or political activists from Iran who won't allow unclean' elements to soil their noble cause.

Today no-one knows how many homosexuals have been killed or arrested in Iran. But we do know that those sentenced to death are given the choice of execution: being hurled from a cliff or high building, hanging, facing a firing squad or stoning. Many choose being thrown to their deaths. I think they feel this gives them a moment of freedom from earthly torture and pain.
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-24-2007, 08:54 AM
root,

please do no confuse the shi'a state of iran for the genuine islam, in islam we do not go spying on people but then neither would we allow parks to become the grounds of immorality.

even other shi'a i have spoken to tell me that iran isnt even complying with the shi'a version of shariah and have twisted it and introduced their own culture as another source of law.

for example, in iran an unmarried fornicator caught three times is executed... why? this is not in the Quran, nor in the Sunnah nor even in the traditions of the shi'a.

just so their treatment of gays goes against norms of islamic behaviour, i am sure there are many good examples of carring iranians trying to treat and help kindly people who have homosexual urges as should be the islamic norm but then again there are many cases of homosexuals being attacked and beaten and murdered in non muslim lands including britain and the US. there was the case of the NY illegial immigrant who being homosexual and caught by the police was raped with a broom handle and had it then put in his mouth and his teeth were smashed out.

so such disgusting behaviour is contrary to islam, it is not from us but from the culture of hatred,

i dont hate gays, i hate their disgusting behaviour and i would if possible like to help them. i do not believe everyone is 100% gay who says they are, it is possible they can be treated and helped out of their behaviour but it has to be done in cooperation with them.

finally, yes in islam to deter others from this disgusting behaviour, if 4 sane adult witnesses to the act are found then yes male homosexuality i.e soddomy only is punished with death. female homosexual behaviour is punished by house arrest until she repents and can be trusted to behave herself as a moral person again.

but if they dont act on their urges or keep such actions secret, they can seek help if they wish or remain secret if they wish and their sins are between them and God.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

FollowingAlhuda
01-24-2007, 09:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i dont hate gays, i hate their disgusting behaviour and i would if possible like to help them. i do not believe everyone is 100% gay who says they are, it is possible they can be treated and helped out of their behaviour but it has to be done in cooperation with them.
Abu Abdullah
Salaamo Aleikom bro,

I actually agree with what your saying here. Next to that i saw an episode of Dr.Phill (YOu must know him). Well in the show came many ex-gay guests. They where telling that gayness is just a ''thing'' you have and can be cured. The most of them where real gays (with woman attributes). The gays only have to be open for help and they could...

Wassalamo Aleikom
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-24-2007, 09:58 AM
most of the aethiests are of the opinion that because the gays cannot help their feelings towards other men its allright. But this seems so wrong to me because we could justify any crime in the world this way. Desire, it corrupts, restraint and practise can help. Also faith, it does miraculous things...
Reply

Muhammad
01-24-2007, 03:57 PM
Hello root,

format_quote Originally Posted by root
You can attempt to water down homophobic attitudes as "we don't undesrtand them, we don't want to engage with them". But I don't see in your text people running in fear of thier lives........ and that is the force of homophobia.......
Just to clarify, I was saying that the notion "we don't undesrtand them, we don't want to engage with them" was someone else's interpretation of the word homophobe, and therefore this is contrary to the Islamic viewpoint. In Islam, we do understand the concept of homosexuality, we do want to help such people and we are not afraid of them. These connotations (mainly fear and ignorance) of the word homophobe do not apply to Islamic teachings. The only thing is that we disapprove of the behaviour and open practice is unacceptable.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-25-2007, 10:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
most of the aethiests are of the opinion that because the gays cannot help their feelings towards other men its allright. But this seems so wrong to me because we could justify any crime in the world this way. Desire, it corrupts, restraint and practise can help. Also faith, it does miraculous things...
I'm afraid you've built a mental straw ma here. This isn't the oopinion of most atheists I know. It isn't because they can't help but having their feelings (the same could be said of any undesirable behaviour). It is because thei behaviour isn't as socially destructive as theists claim. The main reason people find homosexuality imorral is because of religious dogma. Take away that dogma, such as in atheists, and it is no longer seen as imorral.
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-25-2007, 10:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I'm afraid you've built a mental straw ma here. This isn't the oopinion of most atheists I know. It isn't because they can't help but having their feelings (the same could be said of any undesirable behaviour). It is because thei behaviour isn't as socially destructive as theists claim. The main reason people find homosexuality imorral is because of religious dogma. Take away that dogma, such as in atheists, and it is no longer seen as imorral.
i certainly held it to be wrong when i used to be an atheist, as does my father who is on the same beliefs as i used to be upon.

in fact many atheists i know of or have known hold it to be wrong and socially destructive.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-25-2007, 10:44 AM
homosexuality is most certainly socially destructive, theres many more women then men on earth therefore many women will be without partners also gays cannot give birth and children create love between partners.
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-25-2007, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
homosexuality is most certainly socially destructive, theres many more women then men on earth therefore many women will be without partners also gays cannot give birth and children create love between partners.
If homosexuality is roughly equal between the sexes, then your "women won't have men" complaint is void. And I'm not sure, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in such a situation where women do outnumber men significantly isn't polygmy allowed under Islam?

As for children, I consider it a noble sacrifice for people NOT to have children. Human beings are already overpopulated.

And as for children creating love between partners, I think that is a rather bold and peculiar claim. You would say that childless couples are apt to love each other less than couples with children?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-25-2007, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If homosexuality is roughly equal between the sexes, then your "women won't have men" complaint is void. And I'm not sure, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in such a situation where women do outnumber men significantly isn't polygmy allowed under Islam?
Polygomy is allowed but even then we must take into consideration the HUGE amount of men in comparison that are in prison, the amount that die in war, the fact that men die younger naturally and im not sure about the ratio of male gays to lesbians.

As for children, I consider it a noble sacrifice for people NOT to have children. Human beings are already overpopulated.
We can still do with a few million more muslims, thats the goal of the muslims, to give birth to pious children.

And as for children creating love between partners, I think that is a rather bold and peculiar claim. You would say that childless couples are apt to love each other less than couples with children?
This shows a huge lack of faith, your thinking in the material sense. Your thinking children stop parents from going to holidays and spending alone time am i right? Well this isnt the way muslims see it, we see them as comfort for our eyes, we can go into a whole discussion about this. Would you like to? :)
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-25-2007, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
This shows a huge lack of faith, your thinking in the material sense. Your thinking children stop parents from going to holidays and spending alone time am i right? Well this isnt the way muslims see it, we see them as comfort for our eyes, we can go into a whole discussion about this. Would you like to? :)
While I do have a huge lack of faith (and I consider that a virtue :D ), that isn't relavent because I wasn't making any such claim or statement. I was just clarifying yours. You consider childless couples less in love?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-25-2007, 09:21 PM
yes i do :), it is far more likely to find a couple with children still happy after many years then a couple without children.

care to disagree ? :)
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 10:07 AM
assalaamu alaykum,

to the people of the book, peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

a jewish man (non practicing, almost atheist from my previous email conversations with him) writing in todays independent made a startling observation that i am suprised no one has had the sense to see it before.

i was aware of this fact but it just didnt click with me but i guess that is why he is a paid newspaper columnist and i am not.

'if white families cannot adopt a black child because it would suffer identity confusion why can homosexual children adopt assumedly hetrosexual children?'

it is a glaring contradiction in adoption policy in the uk given the recent debate on gay adoption in the uk.

assalaamu alaykum,

to the people of the book, peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

Abu Abdullah
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-26-2007, 01:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
yes i do :), it is far more likely to find a couple with children still happy after many years then a couple without children.

care to disagree ? :)

I don't really agree or disagree. Just never heard this claim before.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-26-2007, 02:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I don't really agree or disagree. Just never heard this claim before.
really? Thats strange. I know many couples who say that their children give them joy and increase their love, it creates a stronger bond. But im sure a couple can love each other very strongly without requiring children aswell
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-26-2007, 05:57 PM
Well if you are right, homosexual couples can always adopt.
Reply

Dawud_uk
01-26-2007, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Well if you are right, homosexual couples can always adopt.
that is the point of our debate in the first place,

if homosexuality is wrong then they should live with the consequences, one of which is childlessness.

homosexuality is wrong, it is wrong to raise children in such an environment less they want to follow it.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

KAding
01-26-2007, 06:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The main reason people find homosexuality imorral is because of religious dogma. Take away that dogma, such as in atheists, and it is no longer seen as imorral.
Typical of an atheist. They can't even spell 'immoral' properly :rolleyes: :embarrass :smile: :D.
Reply

KAding
01-26-2007, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
homosexuality is most certainly socially destructive, theres many more women then men on earth therefore many women will be without partners also gays cannot give birth and children create love between partners.
You somehow assume that homosexuality is limited to men :eek:. Thats clearly false. In reality they pretty much even eachother out so there is no problem :).

Besides, doesn't Islam formally allow polygamy?
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-26-2007, 08:53 PM
KAdling, scroll up a few posts. You just posted almost exactly what I did previously! lol
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-26-2007, 10:19 PM
^ lol thank you, also KAding that in noway changes the fact that in this case all women will have to resort to such a sick thing, humanity will cease to exist !
Reply

KAding
01-26-2007, 11:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ lol thank you, also KAding that in noway changes the fact that in this case all women will have to resort to such a sick thing, humanity will cease to exist !
They won't of course. Like Fishman said earlier, I don't think anyone chooses to become gay, why would they? Besides, I don't think men are really necessary anymore for reproduction :D.

NPR: The End of Men - Making Sperm, No Men Necessary

It won't be long before all that is needed is a bit of DNA and a woman willing to carry the baby! We could abolish sex and introduce world peace! Surely that must be music in the ears of any good Christian or Muslim ;). We might even be able to abolish the hijab eventually! We have two choices, either stop breeding men, or 'fix them' (*wink/nudge*) when they are still young!
Reply

KAding
01-26-2007, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
KAdling, scroll up a few posts. You just posted almost exactly what I did previously! lol
I really should learn to read a whole thread before opening my mouth. :cry:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
01-26-2007, 11:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
They won't of course. Like Fishman said earlier, I don't think anyone chooses to become gay, why would they? Besides, I don't think men are really necessary anymore for reproduction :D.

NPR: The End of Men - Making Sperm, No Men Necessary

It won't be long before all that is needed is a bit of DNA and a woman willing to carry the baby! We could abolish sex and introduce world peace! Surely that must be music in the ears of any good Christian or Muslim ;). We might even be able to abolish the hijab eventually! We have two choices, either stop breeding men, or 'fix them' (*wink/nudge*) when they are still young!
dangerous thoughts man, dangerous thoughts :muddlehea
Reply

Pygoscelis
01-27-2007, 10:02 AM
lol!

Stick it to male dominated society but good!
Reply

Malaikah
01-27-2007, 10:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Surely that must be music in the ears of any good Christian or Muslim ;).
Well considering that music is something unlawful/sinful in Islam, yes it is like music indeed!

Anyway, Muslims are rewarded for what they lawfully do in their privacy as husband and wife, because they are satisfying themselves in a lawful manner, as opposed to an unlawful manner...

So, no, I don't think anyone would be so happy about missing an easy chance of scoring good deeds.

:rolleyes:
Reply

جوري
10-04-2008, 10:06 PM
what a dumb thread.. I am glad I didn't see it before.
first dude makes assimilation between animals and humans.. well amazingly animals are hardly ever monogamous
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Monog...ty-42006.shtml

yet polygamy is a crime but homosexuality isn't?.. oh wait it was indeed up to the early seventies in the civilzed yet very fickle west..

why don't we all live by the rules that govern animals not just when it comes to homosexuality?

then compares sexuality to religion..
we should stick with animal dominated society, seems to fit some best!
Reply

Playwright
10-04-2008, 10:23 PM
Sometime ago, a muslim friend of mine was leaving a counselling session in uni. As he left the office, he noticed a classmate standing by the door outside. Hoping this classmate hadn't overheard the conversation with the counsellor he hurried along to his classes.

This particular person followed him home, sometime after uni, and as he turned down the street where lived, they attacked him.

Why?
He doesnt know
All he heard were the words
"gay faggot"

Hes in physio atm - having broken his leg and arm.
Reply

alcurad
10-04-2008, 10:23 PM
accepting homosexuality to that extent is a sign of a civilization's decline...
simply look at the attitude towards 'gays' in Europe, for so many centuries there were openly homosexual priests, and then before the crusades, they were no more. the opposite happened with the Arabs/Muslims, no acceptance of homosexuals for the most part, and then you find people like Abu Nawas and guess what happens...
Reply

جوري
10-04-2008, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Playwright
Sometime ago, a muslim friend of mine was leaving a counselling session in uni. As he left the office, he noticed a classmate standing by the door outside. Hoping this classmate hadn't overheard the conversation with the counsellor he hurried along to his classes.

This particular person followed him home, sometime after uni, and as he turned down the street where lived, they attacked him.

Why?
He doesnt know
All he heard were the words
"gay faggot"

Hes in physio atm - having broken his leg and arm.
did your friend happen to you by any chance? Also, what part of sodomy being an unacceptable act should be considered a carte blanche for others to beat the crap out of homos?
Do you consciously know, what people are doing in their bedroom?
No one would know if someone is engaging in sodomy, save if that person were openly sharing it with others.
The rulings on matters are clear, just like with pre or extra marital sex, you need to produce four witnesses for penalty to be imposed!
Reply

Playwright
10-04-2008, 11:05 PM
No, It was not me.

It was a friend i had met through a support group.As for the motive of the people that carried out the attacks, i have no idea what drove him to it.

He had overheard, as i mentioned before the problems my friend was having and how it was affecting his studies.
Reply

جوري
10-04-2008, 11:11 PM
That is sad indeed.. I am sorry to hear that..
Reply

Amadeus85
10-04-2008, 11:12 PM
In my opinion the term homophobia is invented to shut the mouths of everyone critical for homosexual way of life. I dont know much about average gays but I saw many times that gay activists are radically intolerant for others.
Reply

Playwright
10-04-2008, 11:18 PM
Ah well,bad things happen to good people all the time. The only thing that gets me through a long day is one particular verse


"...Allah does not lay on any soul a burden except to the extent to which He has granted it; Allah brings about ease after difficulty" 65:7
Reply

جوري
10-04-2008, 11:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Playwright
Ah well,bad things happen to good people all the time. The only thing that gets me through a long day is one particular verse


"...Allah does not lay on any soul a burden except to the extent to which He has granted it; Allah brings about ease after difficulty" 65:7
you do understand that having homosexual feelings and sodomy are two separate things no?

All people can live without sex, but no one can live without feelings.

anyhow that is a topic for another day and another thread!
Reply

Playwright
10-04-2008, 11:24 PM
Skye , I understand completely.

And its not about Sex. Its about not having to hide a part of yourself from people you love, on pain of exclusion from all you know and love.
Reply

czgibson
10-04-2008, 11:26 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
In my opinion the term homophobia is invented to shut the mouths of everyone critical for homosexual way of life. I dont know much about average gays but I saw many times that gay activists are radically intolerant for others.
So let's not tolerate them, then.

[:?]

Peace
Reply

جوري
10-04-2008, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Playwright
Skye , I understand completely.

And its not about Sex. Its about not having to hide a part of yourself from people you love, on pain of exclusion from all you know and love.
in fact I think you should share this with an imam or a Muslim scholar, I think they would direct you to the right places and proper literature -- you might actually be surprised..

I assume the one who beat your friend wasn't another Muslim? It isn't the Islamic way to beat homosexuality out of someone.. but there is a way to channel what you are feeling appropriately...

This is psychological not physiological..for which you should indeed seek help and counseling.

peace
Reply

doorster
10-04-2008, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


So let's not tolerate them, then.

[:?]

Peace
I never thought I'll see the day when I had to back Aaron but

where <Snip> did he say that ? :blind:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
10-04-2008, 11:31 PM
if only we could go right to the root of homosexuality

then people would know its not natural


in this case the root being the people of Lut (alaihissalaam)
Reply

Playwright
10-04-2008, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I assume the one who beat your friend wasn't another Muslim? It isn't the Islamic way to beat homosexuality out of someone.. but there is a way to channel what you are feeling appropriately...
He was not only Muslim, but also the same ethnicity as my friend. It is a mainly muslim university in London.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
in fact I think you should share this with an imam or a Muslim scholar, I think they would direct you to the right places and proper literature -- you might actually be surprised..
Thats difficult. I havent gathered the nerve to try that on my own


format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
This is psychological not physiological..for which you should indeed seek help and counseling.
As soon as i turn 18, i went for counseling. Psychiatrist even. Got put on meds. Sure they took away the feelings. And everything with them. The world was black and white for a while. Then i stopped.
Reply

جوري
10-04-2008, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
if only we could go right to the root of homosexuality

then people would know its not natural


in this case the root being the people of Lut (alaihissalaam)
It is indeed psychological and at some point was classified in the DSM II as a form of sexual deviance.
Think of it in terms of heterosexuality and it will make better sense, is it indeed possible for you to develop very erotic feelings for someone you can't have? of course we have all been there, I challenge anyone to have gone through their entire teenage years without having had 'desires, strong attractions, crushes' on people they couldn't have.
Does everyone go jumping, or stalking people they have strong desires for? no it would be criminals for reasons pretty much societal, infringing upon the rights of another human being to satisfy an animal lust. Well homosexuality is infringing on the rights of Allah SWT --Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions!

But he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all about grazing therein. Truly, every king has a sanctuary, and Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions." (Related by Muslim).

:w:
Reply

جوري
10-04-2008, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Playwright
He was not only Muslim, but also the same ethnicity as my friend. It is a mainly muslim university in London.
interesting.. but vigilante justice isn't part of Islamic jurisprudence!


Thats difficult. I havent gathered the nerve to try that on my own
Why not? you can write anonymously to

Ask the scholar-1

Ask the scholar-2
You have nothing to lose, except feeling alienated!

As soon as i turn 18, i went for counseling. Psychiatrist even. Got put on meds. Sure they took away the feelings. And everything with them. The world was black and white for a while. Then i stopped.
I am not going to ask you why you have stopped, but at least you know, you can go focusing on your school work, until things become more clear for you.

cheers
Reply

Playwright
10-04-2008, 11:53 PM
Okay here is how i felt with the meds

Imagine a busy room, full of friends and family. There is an excitement and buzz in the air, stories are told, secrets are shared - there is a feeling that all is well in the air -You feel the highs, share the laughs and secrets

With them its like your in the room, but in a vacuum. You feel nothing.At all.

Not in my opinion a way to live.

Thank you for the links.
Reply

جوري
10-04-2008, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Playwright
Okay here is how i felt with the meds

Imagine a busy room, full of friends and family. There is an excitement and buzz in the air, stories are told, secrets are shared - there is a feeling that all is well in the air -You feel the highs, share the laughs and secrets

With them its like your in the room, but in a vacuum. You feel nothing.At all.

Not in my opinion a way to live.

Thank you for the links.
how long have you been on meds? and what kind of meds were you given?
you need in general to give your body time to adjust to new medications in order for them to take effect, so you can in fact expect a period of a few weeks to months before you are back to your old self, also if a particular medication isn't working for you, you can speak with your GP about unfavorable side effects that you have to can live without.

I imagine some clinical judgment passed through a clinician's head before prescribing you meds, and wasn't a random act.. it isn't good to quit medications without supervision, that is as a general rule of thumb whether your meds have to do with depression or asthma or anything else therein in between!

cheers
Reply

Playwright
10-05-2008, 12:05 AM
I had tried a a few (MAOIs most recently being the last resort)

I was on them for an entire year. Then i quit
Reply

Playwright
10-05-2008, 12:07 AM
I had tried a a few. The GP did tell me some of them might not agree with me. We tried a few untill we finally set a dosage that 'suit' me (MAOIs most recently being the last resort)

I was on them for an entire year. Then i quit
Reply

جوري
10-05-2008, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Playwright
I had tried a a few (MAOIs most recently being the last resort)

I was on them for an entire year. Then i quit
MAO are obsolete, and have a myriad of side effects, did they put you on SSRI's first before resorting to those?
Reply

Playwright
10-05-2008, 12:13 AM
I was made well aware of these side affects,and they did state the side affects.- Zoloft being the first trial, with Lexapro working a bit more, before they made me try MAOI's
Reply

جوري
10-05-2008, 12:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Playwright
I was made well aware of these side affects,and they did state the side affects.- Zoloft being the first trial, with Lexapro working a bit more, before they made me try MAOI's
You should be on a med for at least 6 months before switching to another class of drugs..
I think it would be prudent for you to go back, perhaps this time ask for buspirone, see if that works for you? it works by a different mechanism than the other three classes including the TCA's which are actually not bad especially for folks who have chronic pain disorder..

but buspar if in fact they decide to put you on will need a period of two weeks to start working. You can't judge a medication from two days. You need to be patient, and not simply quit without supervision.

all the best

cheers
Reply

Playwright
10-05-2008, 12:26 AM
Ill take it into account. Even though i was on MOAI's for a year. You have scary knowledge of medicine
Reply

barney
10-06-2008, 04:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
In my opinion the term homophobia is invented to shut the mouths of everyone critical for homosexual way of life. I dont know much about average gays but I saw many times that gay activists are radically intolerant for others.
Was the term Islamophobia created to shut the mouths of racists??

Homophobia has been around for thousands of years. The writers of the bible were homophobic when they wrote the "death to gays" law, when they invented cities populated only by gay people to be nuked with divine wrath as a scare tactic.

The most gentle , tolerant, mild mannered christian searches in vain for the requisite hoops to jump through on this matter. All because they gather that consenting adults sexual practices in private are subjects that a deity who created such feelings would have an opinion on.
Reply

doorster
10-06-2008, 08:10 AM
Was the term Islamophobia created to shut the mouths of racists??
why do some (strange, weird) folk turn anything and everything in to Islam bashing?and they are allowed to while we are not even allowed to make a post based on genuine Islamic texts to differentiate ourselves from others (to counter misleading threads and misconceptions caused from them)?:rollseyes

odd sense of freedom of speech and fairness for all!+o(

I could fill a page with this posters tricks alone but I fear that it would be a time wasting exercise (it would be censored). May Allah forgive me (if I'm complaining excessively).
Reply

Quest4Knowledge
10-08-2008, 08:08 AM
All modern faiths teach that homosexuality is a sin of some sort, some in different degrees.

The argument that if homosexuality is accepted then pedophilia, incest etc will also be accepted is fundamentally flawed.

If 2 people decide to follow a path such as homosexuality, then why is this act such a sin other than the word of God says it is.

Incest is evil because it has the ability to create new life, thus affecting the life of another potentially. Incest creates anomalies in the gene pool and may cause deformities in a child.

Pedophilia is evil (aka a sin) because it once again, affects the life of one who has no control over the situation. It has the potential to scar a young child for life, spread disease and otherwise cause many problems.

Now homosexuality while technically a sin to many religions, does not affect parties other than the 2 involved in the act. In most cases they are grown human beings, and have no explanation for why they feel this way....they just do. They are not evil.

Infact, many scientists believe there is a biological reason for homosexuality, much the same way there is reason for other conditions of the mind (both positive and negative). But the interesting thought lies again in the fact that it hurts no one in 99% of the cases.

The only argument one could present is that a child should not be raised by 2 men or 2 women as that goes against the will of God, or a code of widely accepted morality.

But in a world where there are children being raised by no men or no women (ie: street kids, wards of the state etc) this should not be a prime concern and if 2 people are willing to provide a loving home for an otherwise unloved child, who should stop them.

I in no way mean to "bash Islam", infact quite the contrary. I hold many of Islam's teachings very close to my heart despite what I may believe about religion.

In conjunction with reading the Koran and multiple other religious texts, I look forward to cruising these forums in a chance to gain a greater understanding about the great peaceful religion that is true Islam.

PS: No I myself am not gay.

An interesting read:
http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/Ro...logical_ba.htm
Reply

Uthman
10-08-2008, 04:18 PM
Welcome to the forum Quest4Knowledge. :)
Reply

Muezzin
10-08-2008, 07:39 PM
What kind of a world do we live in when homophobia is treated more seriously by religious folk everywhere than arachnaphobia?

Think of all the poor spiders I've chucked out of the window!

Forgive me, Charlotte, Anansi and Shelob.

Also!

This thread is approaching its first birthday. Usually they don't last beyond three days in this section. Because discussion seems to become exhausted sometime in that duration. Like it has become exhausted in this thread.

Therefore, I'm going to close this thread.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-24-2010, 10:35 AM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-14-2010, 09:23 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-25-2008, 04:55 PM
  4. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 06-22-2006, 06:10 PM
  5. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 06-16-2006, 05:13 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!