Independent Kurdistan...

[north_malaysian]

Would you support independent state of Kurdistan?

[axess1907]

I WILL TELL YOU 1 THING:

KURDISTAN WILL NEVER EXIST!!!


TURKIYE! www.turkey.com !

TURKEY 4 EVER!!!


oooooooooooo
o
o * * *
o ***
o ******
o *
o ***
o * * *
ooooooooooooo


The dream of Kurdistan will NEVER BE REALITY! DONT FORGET THIS!

I WILL FIGHT FOR TURKEY when i go to the turkish army!

[Goku]

I dont know much on this issue, do Kurds want to carve out a state from a part of Iraq and Turkey?

[Chechnya]

if they want an islamic nation run by shariah then i would support it - otherwise it would be useless

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[axess1907]

Kurdish people try to get land from Turkey and Iraq. WITH WAR!! THEY ARE KILLING TURKISH CIVIL PEOPLE you all dont know this. Turkey is fighting since lots of years against the Kurdish PKK Terrorists who wanna get their own land in Turkey, but they will never get it, I SWEAR IT!

ABDULLAH OCALAN is the boss of the PKK KURDISH TERRORISTS he is in prison now. He killed turkish children and women. HE IS A *******! YES HE IS!

Read this article:

Ocalan
Who is Abdullah Ocalan?
Ocalan: key moments of his life

By Beat Witschi
CNN Interactive

(CNN) -- To the majority of the Turkish people, Abdullah Ocalan (pronounced URGE'ah-lohn) is a child murderer and terrorist whose violent campaign for Kurdish autonomy threatens the very foundation of modern-day multiethnic Turkey.

But for many Kurds -- both in the impoverished southeast of Turkey and abroad -- Ocalan and his banned Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) are battling Ankara's iron-fisted oppression of Kurdish culture, identity and political aspirations.

So who is this man who has spent much of his life outside Turkey and now risks being executed for his terrorist/freedom fighter campaign?
RELATED VIDEO
CNN's Nic Robertson reports on Abdullah Ocalan
Ocalan
Windows Media 28K 80K

A number of biographical dates and developments have been reported repeatedly by Turkish, Kurdish and international media.

Ocalan was born in 1948 in the village of Omerli in southeastern Turkey, close to the Syrian border.

He became politically active during his university years in Ankara, where he studied political science but dropped out. By 1973 he had organized a Maoist group whose goal was a socialist revolution. He founded the PKK in 1978 as an extreme-left nationalist group that launched a war against the Turkish government in order to set up an independent Kurdish state along Marxist lines.

Ocalan fled Turkey before the 1980 military coup and lived in exile, mostly in the Syrian capital Damascus and in the Lebanese plains under Syrian control, where he set up his PKK headquarters and training camps.

Late last year, under intense pressure from Turkey, Syria closed the camps and expelled Ocalan, who started an odyssey through various nations in search of political asylum. In February, he was nabbed in Kenya after an undercover operation and spirited back to Turkey.
Ocalan graphic
Ocalan faces a possible death sentence on treason charges for leading a 15-year-old armed struggle by Kurdish rebels seeking self-rule in southeast Turkey
Ocalan: his mission

Ocalan, a heavily built man with a thick black mustache, propagates a Cold War brand of nationalism mixed with Marxist-Leninist doctrine that in many ways belongs to another era.

"You must believe before everything else that the revolution must come, that there is no other choice," he is reported to have said in an address to a Kurdish youth rally last August.

"You must say no to betrayal and denial. Even though I am 50 years old, I have never allowed myself to get old. I am going on with the struggle."

But the man who is said to speak very little Kurdish has gradually dropped his demands for Kurdish independence, saying the violent conflict can end if Ankara grants the Kurds autonomy or cultural and linguistic rights.

That retreat, some observers say, may well be linked to the Turkish military's success in destroying much of the PKK's power base both inside Turkey and across the border in northern Iraq.
In Ocalan's Words...
"Turkey has to be democratized and the emergence of democracy is from the East (Anatolia). The East will render a great service to the democratic liberation of Turkey. In other words: our movement is the liberation movement of the Turkish people."
"I used to be someone who would not even tread on an ant. But this is a war for honor and self-defense. A 100 percent elimination policy (by Ankara of the Kurds) has forced me to defense and it has become a glorious defense of a people."
"Turkey will lose if it does not soften its hard policies of centralization and unity. I am not someone who would gloat over the collapse of Turkey. If they (the government) have trust in democracy, I am ready to join them as a fighter without arms."
— All quotes from a 1991 interview with Turkish journalist Sema Emiroglu

Turkish journalists who have interviewed Ocalan have come away with the impression of a "megalomaniac" and "sick" man who has no respect for or understanding of the "superior values of European civilization."

"Everyone should take note of the way I live, what I do and what I don't do," a December edition of the Turkish Daily News quoted Ocalan as saying in one of his many speeches.

"The way I eat, the way I think, my orders and even my inactivity should be carefully studied. There will be lessons to be learned from several generations because Apo (Ocalan) is a great teacher," he is quoted as saying.

By many accounts from inside and outside Turkey, Ocalan is a dogmatic and tyrannical leader whose organization is involved in drug trafficking, robbery, extortion, arson, blackmail and money laundering.

Some international human rights monitors have put him on a par with former Chilean dictator Gen. Augusto Pinochet or war crimes suspect Radovan Karadzic in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Many international Turkey watchers agree that Ocalan wiped out rival Kurdish movements as well as potential personal rivals with ruthless determination.

According to the Turkish Daily News, Ocalan underlined his personal hunger for absolute power at the helm of the PKK in a party publication in 1991.

"I establish a thousand relationships every day and destroy a thousand political, organizational, emotional and ideological relationships. No one is indispensable for me. Especially if there is anyone who eyes the chairmanship of the PKK. I will not hesitate to eradicate them. I will not hesitate in doing away with people," he is quoted as saying.
Ocalan supporter
Following Turkey's arrest of Ocalan, Kurdish supporters protested in several European cities to draw international attention to their cause

And yet, for PKK members and many of their supporters, both inside and outside Turkey, Ocalan is a hero: a determined leader who has been struggling against the cultural, economic and political deprivations imposed on the Kurdish people by Ankara.

"The name of Apo has been identified with the Kurdish people who have risen and are fighting for independence," a pro-Kurdish publication says of Ocalan, in line with many similar statements broadcast by the London-based Kurdish Med-TV station.

Here is a picture of the Killer:

I hope you now know what kind of poeple the Kurds are! BEWARE!

[Trumble]

Non muslim who supports Kurdistan, on the assumption that an independent Kurdistan is what the majority of the population living in its likely territory actually wants. Whether it is an "Islamic nation run by Shariah", or not, is totally irrelevant. That seems unlikely, but so, at the moment, seems an independent Kurdistan at all.

[axess1907]

Non muslim who supports Kurdistan, on the assumption that an independent Kurdistan is what the majority of the population living in its likely territory actually wants. Whether it is an "Islamic nation run by Shariah", or not, is totally irrelevant. That seems unlikely, but so, at the moment, seems an independent Kurdistan at all.

I dont understand what you try to tell us...

[AHMED_GUREY]

Kurdish people try to get land from Turkey and Iraq. WITH WAR!!

Brother when Ottoman Empire collapsed many provinces and different peoples got their own states and Kurdistan would have received the same under the treaty of Sevres if President Kemal hadn't retaken the lands

I hope you now know what kind of poeple the Kurds are! BEWARE!

I know Kurdish history and culture and their interesting people like the Turks

giving a unjustified warning like that by generalizing a whole group of people makes you look bad brother cause your projecting ad hominems instead of putting your point across in a rational matter,there are bad people from every backgrounds

Terrorism does not have a phenotype,genotype or a specific religion that distinguishes a terrorist from a non terrorist, also someone's terrorist might be another person's freedom fighter.

[seeker_of_ilm]

:sl:

I hope you now know what kind of poeple the Kurds are! BEWARE!

Don't generalise. Replace the word "Kurds" with "Muslims", thats pretty much the stereotyping that Muslims get, when they are judged by the actions of a minority. So even though there are some Kurds who may resort to terrorism, this does not reflect the character and deeds of the majority of Kurds.

Allow me to quote you from another thread

NO! ISLAM IS NOT A VIOLENT RELIGION! THERE ARE SOME TERRORSITS, because of this silly people the people call our religion a violent religioN!

The same applies to Kurds :)

:w:

[rav]

I dont know much on this issue, do Kurds want to carve out a state from a part of Iraq and Turkey?

And Iran. It was really all theres.

[Fishman]

:sl:
If the Kurds are being oppressed then they should have their own state so that they are safe. If they are safe where they are, then any desire to have a state is just nationalism, which the Prophet (pbuh) compared to biting your father's genitals.

TURKIYE!

TURKEY 4 EVER!!!

I WILL FIGHT FOR TURKEY

That's also nationalism. We should not support a country just because we were born there, it's irrational.
:w:

[Count DeSheep]

I hope you now know what kind of poeple the Kurds are! BEWARE!

Watch CNN. Watch almost any news channel, really. Muslims attack everyone. Christians, Jews, other Muslims, Buddhists, etc., have all been the victims of Muslims. If you want to stereotype, then let's be fair and do it to everyone.

Sunni Muslims: Saddam Hussein was a Sunni, he killed many people, and so by your logic, all Sunnis are bad.

Men: They sexually abuse the other gender. They are all bad.

Germans: Adolf Hitler's crimes were obvious. Kill all the Germans.

Aryans: They believe that they are the supreme race. They are all white. So let's have a little ethnic cleansing.

Arabs: An Arab man once got into a fight with a black man. Beware of them Arabs, too.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture now, don't you? Then again, if you lack the sense to not judge a whole group by one person's actions, maybe I should continue?

Well, I hope you now know what kind of "poeple" those listed above are! BEWARE!

[Goku]

And Iran. It was really all theres.

Iran has Persian origin.

[rav]

Iran has Persian origin.

Not all of Iran.

[rav]

[north_malaysian]

There are Kurdistan in part of Armenia too?:rollseyes (looking at the first map given)

[Count DeSheep]

Sorry, I never got to post my reasoning...I'm a non-Muslim opposed to Kurdistan. I am opposed to Kurdistan because that would promote things like discrimination and hatred between the Kurds and other Islamic groups. If there is a way for Kurds to live peacefully in the countries they do now, then they should; if there is absolutely no peaceful way to live in any nation, then I would support an independent Kurdistan. However, I am sure that there will be a way for Kurds to have peaceful, ordinary lives in their current countries (or at least, most of them).

[north_malaysian]

I am opposed to Kurdistan because that would promote things like discrimination and hatred between the Kurds and other Islamic groups

Are you Kurd? How do you know they'll discriminate others.... but still... most of nations' majority ethnic groups do discriminate the minorities....

[Darkseid]

I will be answering each statement or each one that I find interest in.

Would you support independent state of Kurdistan?

Yes.

[Akil]

The only reason I don’t support an independent Kurdistan is because a war with Turkey would be a foregone conclusion and it would probably destroy everything the Kurds in Iraq have worked for.

[KAding]

I voted 'yes'. I think any people have a fundamental right of self-determination, so that includes the Kurds.

[Dawud_uk]

I WILL TELL YOU 1 THING:

KURDISTAN WILL NEVER EXIST!!!


TURKIYE! www.turkey.com !

TURKEY 4 EVER!!!


oooooooooooo
o
o * * *
o ***
o ******
o *
o ***
o * * *
ooooooooooooo


The dream of Kurdistan will NEVER BE REALITY! DONT FORGET THIS!

I WILL FIGHT FOR TURKEY when i go to the turkish army!

assalaamu alaykum,

sentiments like the above will generate sympathy for an independent kurdistan but one set of evil secular nationalism as shown by some turks is not an excuse for another set of evil secular nationalism as shown by the kurds.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[north_malaysian]

another set of evil secular nationalism as shown by the kurds.

how do you know that the kurds are evil secular nationalists?

[Dawud_uk]

how do you know that the kurds are evil secular nationalists?

Assalaamu Alaykum,

Look at their actions; they are as busy ethnically cleansing Arabs, Turkmen’s and others from what will probably be their state of Kurdistan in north Iraq as Saddam also did to them.

Not only that they are secularist to the core and that is evil as it is ruling by other than Allah has revealed which is a major act of disblief. There are two main parties in north Iraq, one communist, one socialist, both at almost at state of war with each other over the past decade and also vigorously trying to kill off practicing Muslims in fear they are members of the Islamic parties there such as Ansar Al Islam.

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Akil]

All I know is that the Kurds in Iraq have a functioning infrastructure, domestic police to suppress crime and an organized, trained and uniformed Armed Force to maintain their boarder. There is little violence and little terrorism. It is the Iraq that the United States originally set out to create, now to convince the Sunni and the Shia areas of Iraq to become similar >.<

[Count DeSheep]

Are you Kurd? How do you know they'll discriminate others

It's segregation. Segregation breeds intolerance and hatred. Not everyone will hate the Kurds and not all Kurds will hate everyone else, that much is obvious, but in giving them their own homeland, does that not promote discrimination? The creation of Israel was bad enough; it will be hard to fix that problem. Creating a similar problem will only make things worse.

[snakelegs]

i didn't vote because i don't know enough, but i think it could only be at the expense of a lot of bloodshed.
but the map rav posted is interesting - there is an isolated kurdish enclave off to the east (bordering turmenistan). wonder what the history is there?

[Grace Seeker]

All I know is that the Kurds in Iraq have a functioning infrastructure, domestic police to suppress crime and an organized, trained and uniformed Armed Force to maintain their boarder. There is little violence and little terrorism. It is the Iraq that the United States originally set out to create, now to convince the Sunni and the Shia areas of Iraq to become similar >.<

That is true in one area occupied by Kurds, not in all areas. If one checks out the Kurdish towns in eastern Turkey, one sees something completely different. One sees violence and destruction.

The Turks I know do not understand why the USA will support Israel against the PLO and Hammas, but not Turkey against the PKK. I agree with them. I think there is a double standard being used.



I am against the concept of an independent Kurdistan. And though I do believe that the PKK are terrorists, it has nothing to do with them.

The rationale that I see presented for a Kurdish homeland is that as ethnically different people from Turks they need their own country. Living in the USA, a country composed of people from many different ethnic backgrounds who for the most part are able to live amicably side-by-side with one another (even if not always in perfect harmony), I reject the idea that every ethnic group needs their own personal homeland. I think that there has been too much of that already in the world. If we set that as the standard, then we are going to have to carve every country up into tiny pieces. Just look at the map of Iran provided earlier in this thread, should we divide it into 10-12 different countries for each ethnic group? This makes no sense to me.

Rather, I think the opposite makes more sense. We need to be eliminating borders, not creating new ones.

[Count DeSheep]

We need to be eliminating borders, not creating new ones.

Wooh! You're awesome in the head! =D

[north_malaysian]

There are two main parties in north Iraq, one communist, one socialist

Kurdish Islamic political parties (source: wikipedia)

IRAQ(Seats won in Iraqi Council of Representatives)
1) Islamic Fayli Grouping in Iraq (0 seats)
2) Kurdistan Islamic Union (5 seats)
3) Islamic Kurdish Society (2 seats)

TURKEY
1) Turkish Hizbullah (illegalized)
2) Islamic Party of Kurdistan (illegalized)
3) Kurdish Islamic Movement (illegalized)

[Dawud_uk]

It's segregation. Segregation breeds intolerance and hatred. Not everyone will hate the Kurds and not all Kurds will hate everyone else, that much is obvious, but in giving them their own homeland, does that not promote discrimination? The creation of Israel was bad enough; it will be hard to fix that problem. Creating a similar problem will only make things worse.

absolutely true, the 3rd biggest group amongst the kurds is ansar al islam, now known as ansar al sunnah and is one of the biggest mujahadeen groups in iraq, open to all not just kurds.

Abu Abdullah

[Darkseid]

The only reason I don’t support an independent Kurdistan is because a war with Turkey would be a foregone conclusion and it would probably destroy everything the Kurds in Iraq have worked for.

I would seriously doubt that the Turkish government could seriously take on the Kurds by themselves. If the Turks go to war with the Kurds, then the Kurds could gain many allies that happen to severely hate the Turks, like the Greeks for instance.

sentiments like the above will generate sympathy for an independent kurdistan but one set of evil secular nationalism as shown by some turks is not an excuse for another set of evil secular nationalism as shown by the kurds.

I don't what you are talking about. Kurdistan is not an evil secular nationalist movement. Kurdistan is a movement to establish a state for a group of people that have always been under the oppression of another government.

Look at their actions; they are as busy ethnically cleansing Arabs, Turkmen’s and others from what will probably be their state of Kurdistan in north Iraq as Saddam also did to them.

You do know that Arabs occupy and own like twenty different countries. So it shouldn't be such a big deal.

And besides the President of Iraq, Jalal Talabani, said that the "Kurds are working on a plan to give Iraqi Turkmen autonomy in areas where they are a majority in the new constitution they're drafting for the Kurdistan Region of Iraq."

Not only that they are secularist to the core and that is evil as it is ruling by other than Allah has revealed which is a major act of disblief.

Oh can it, there are Kurdish muslims. So they believe in the words of Muhammad as much as you do.

There are two main parties in north Iraq, one communist, one socialist, both at almost at state of war with each other over the past decade and also vigorously trying to kill off practicing Muslims in fear they are members of the Islamic parties there such as Ansar Al Islam.

WRONG!

Communism is has never existed except in religious societies that placed no value to currency.

Socialism is actually pretty good for of government, since it allows society to take care of it self. Go to Sweden and learn just how good Socialism can be, especially for people that are trying to have a family.

It's segregation.

No segregation is when you have different facilities in the same society that are made for diverse groups of people. This is diverse societies that are made seperate of one another with diverse groups of people.

Segregation breeds intolerance and hatred.

Isn't taxing Jews and Christians a form of segregation?

Not everyone will hate the Kurds and not all Kurds will hate everyone else, that much is obvious, but in giving them their own homeland, does that not promote discrimination?

Well surely wouldn't the opposite encourage discrimination towards those that desire to no longer be oppressed by other people?

Do you honestly want the Kurds to be oppressed by Iraqi Arabs?

The creation of Israel was bad enough.

No it wasn't. The creation of Israel was an act that Allah allow to occur. And there is a reason why he allowed such a state to exist.

Think about it. If you are a muslim, a holy and sacred follower of Allah, then don't you think Allah would have sent a meteor to wipe out Israel? But did he? Why did he not come to protect you like he did to Noah or Moses?

Think about it. There is a reason to why things are progressing the way they are and you shouldn't act so quickly without considering the reality.

It will be hard to fix that problem. Creating a similar problem will only make things worse.

I'd like you to try and present actual evidence in your next argument.

The rationale that I see presented for a Kurdish homeland is that as ethnically different people from Turks they need their own country. Living in the USA, a country composed of people from many different ethnic backgrounds who for the most part are able to live amicably side-by-side with one another (even if not always in perfect harmony), I reject the idea that every ethnic group needs their own personal homeland.

The United States was constructed out of the independence of British Colonist from the Kingdom of Britain. Although it does have have a large variety of people (mainly because the original inhabitants were slaughtered in a frenzy out of intolerance and prejudism. But every ethnic group does deserve their own homeland or none of them deserve their own homeland.

Just look at the map of Iran provided earlier in this thread, should we divide it into 10-12 different countries for each ethnic group? This makes no sense to me.

There are 12 different ethnic groups in Iraq?

With Iran it is a little different.

The Arab people of Iran could easily join Iraq or Oman or some other Arab country.

The Baloch people could join Pakistan, since Balochs are a major ethnic group of Pakistan.

But since the Baloch's are an Iranian people, you could simply just add in the Baloch part of Pakistan into Iran, instead. The Talysh people are an Iranian people, so they could simply remain as a part of Iran. The Gileki people are an Iranian people, so they could simply remain as a part of Iran. The Qashqai are a Turkish people, so they could establish their own state. The Lur are an Iranian people, so they could simply remain as a part of Iran. The Azeris could join Azerbaijan. The Mazandarani are an Iranian people, so they could simply remain as a part of Iran.

As you can see it isn't the ethinic group policy that you are thinking about. It is the distinctively large ethnic variations of people that have nothing in common.

Rather, I think the opposite makes more sense. We need to be eliminating borders, not creating new ones.

True, but you are thinking too ahead of the current times. Humanity can never and will never get along with increasing establishment joint-unitary states.

Are you proposing a federation of Middle-Eastern States? If that's the case, it will not work either. In this current time, people in the Middle East can never get along with their difference, even if they follow the same prophet.

We already know this. So your idea is a likely to succeed as Communism.

absolutely true, the 3rd biggest group amongst the kurds is ansar al islam, now known as ansar al sunnah and is one of the biggest mujahadeen groups in iraq, open to all not just kurds.

The Kurds are anything except segregatists.

[Grace Seeker]

The Arab people of Iran could easily join Iraq or Oman or some other Arab country.

The Baloch people could join Pakistan, since Balochs are a major ethnic group of Pakistan.

But since the Baloch's are an Iranian people, you could simply just add in the Baloch part of Pakistan into Iran, instead. The Talysh people are an Iranian people, so they could simply remain as a part of Iran. The Gileki people are an Iranian people, so they could simply remain as a part of Iran. The Qashqai are a Turkish people, so they could establish their own state. The Lur are an Iranian people, so they could simply remain as a part of Iran. The Azeris could join Azerbaijan. The Mazandarani are an Iranian people, so they could simply remain as a part of Iran.

You can't do this in Iran alone, already we are talking about Iraq, Turkey, and Iran, plus all of their neighboring countries. Maybe Kurdistan should have been formed instead of the countries that were, but that is now history. I don't propose going back to correct it. Do it here with Kurdistan, and you will have to do it again, and again, and again until every ethnic group has their own homeland, and once done then different types of Kurds will want their own autonomous part of Kurdistand and the process will continue to repeat itself until everyone is a country unto themselves.

Yes, that is riduculous. And given that it is, let's stop the riduculousness where we are right now, before we create a Kurdistan.

[Mezier]

:w:

I voted Yes. Im a muslim. I was born in Iraq. Im a kurd (one of the few on this board).

I am in full support of Kurdistan run under Shariah law.
The main reason I support Kurdistan is for self-identity. Just recently in Northern Iraq (Kurdistan) schools were finally teaching students in the Kurdish language rather than Arabic (which is now the 2nd language taught). Over the past decades the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria have been assimilated. Im from Iraq, and even the Kurdish I speak today is riddled with arabic words. Just as the Kurds in Turkey use have Turkish words in their vocabulary. Its has become so bad that I can no longer understand a Kurd that has been raised in a different country.

A little note. I WOULD fight for my people. Not because I'm a Nationalist, but because I know that anyone who starts a war with the Kurds will only be doing it for their self-interest (ex: Turkey).

:sl:

[north_malaysian]

:w:

I voted Yes. Im a muslim. I was born in Iraq. Im a kurd (one of the few on this board).

I am in full support of Kurdistan run under Shariah law.
The main reason I support Kurdistan is for self-identity. Just recently in Northern Iraq (Kurdistan) schools were finally teaching students in the Kurdish language rather than Arabic (which is now the 2nd language taught). Over the past decades the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria have been assimilated. Im from Iraq, and even the Kurdish I speak today is riddled with arabic words. Just as the Kurds in Turkey use have Turkish words in their vocabulary. Its has become so bad that I can no longer understand a Kurd that has been raised in a different country.

A little note. I WOULD fight for my people. Not because I'm a Nationalist, but because I know that anyone who starts a war with the Kurds will only be doing it for their self-interest (ex: Turkey).

:sl:

wow.. i dont know that we have a kurd here.... :D

As the poll shows : Out of 13 muslims vote, only 5 supported, and 3 abstained ..... can you convince the 5 who opposed, and 3 abstainances to believe that you deserved a nation?

I voted yes..... even I live far away from Mid-East...

[Count DeSheep]

Kurdistan is not an evil secular nationalist movement.

All nationalist movements are evil.

No segregation is when you have different facilities in the same society that are made for diverse groups of people. This is diverse societies that are made seperate of one another with diverse groups of people.

Main Entry: seg·re·ga·tion
Skipping all the boring stuff again...
And now, the definition taken from M-W.com:
The separation for special treatment or observation of individuals or items from a larger group.

Israel and Kurdistan are the same thing: Giant facilities of segregation.

Isn't taxing Jews and Christians a form of segregation?

Taxing? As in, income tax, estate tax, etc.?

Well surely wouldn't the opposite encourage discrimination towards those that desire to no longer be oppressed by other people?

Do you honestly want the Kurds to be oppressed by Iraqi Arabs?

No, I do not. I want there to be a society of understanding, where people of all kinds live together peacefully. As I said in my first post, if there is no other option, if there is much ignorance in the rest of the Middle East that the Kurds are totally oppressed, then yes, there should be an independent Kurdistan. But I believe that there are existing places that Kurds can go where they can live in peace and not be oppressed.

No it wasn't. The creation of Israel was an act that Allah allow to occur. And there is a reason why he allowed such a state to exist.

Think about it. If you are a muslim, a holy and sacred follower of Allah, then don't you think Allah would have sent a meteor to wipe out Israel? But did he? Why did he not come to protect you like he did to Noah or Moses?

Think about it. There is a reason to why things are progressing the way they are and you shouldn't act so quickly without considering the reality.

Genocide is an act that Allah allows to happen. The Tutsis, the Native Americans, the Jews, and so on. They were all mercilessly slaughtered. Just because it was happening didn't mean that Allah did not will it to be stopped. If it is truly Allah's will that something happens, then there will be absolutely no way to undo it. But there is a way to undo Israel. I'm not saying we should kill the Jews, so don't go jumping all over that, I'm saying that there should NOT be a Jewish state. There should not be a Kurdish state, or a Christian state, or whatever.

But every ethnic group does deserve their own homeland or none of them deserve their own homeland.

I'll answer that with your own words:

I'd like you to try and present actual evidence in your next argument.

[Count DeSheep]

I am in full support of Kurdistan run under Shariah law.
The main reason I support Kurdistan is for self-identity. Just recently in Northern Iraq (Kurdistan) schools were finally teaching students in the Kurdish language rather than Arabic (which is now the 2nd language taught). Over the past decades the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria have been assimilated. Im from Iraq, and even the Kurdish I speak today is riddled with arabic words. Just as the Kurds in Turkey use have Turkish words in their vocabulary. Its has become so bad that I can no longer understand a Kurd that has been raised in a different country.

Isn't it that way with EVERY group? My first language is English. And yet if a person that was born and raised in England talks to me, I can't understand them too well. Even within America, the English language differs from region to region. Just think of Germany, England, France, and all those other evil nations that invaded the rest of the world. German, English, and French are all spoken differently in every previously-occupied region of the world.

[Mezier]

Isn't it that way with EVERY group? My first language is English. And yet if a person that was born and raised in England talks to me, I can't understand them too well. Even within America, the English language differs from region to region. Just think of Germany, England, France, and all those other evil nations that invaded the rest of the world. German, English, and French are all spoken differently in every previously-occupied region of the world.

:w:

Now mix that in with cultural assimilation and poof...no more Kurds. Yes I do agree. This has happened a lot. But does that make it a good enough reason for it to happen again? Don't you think it is wrong? Just because 1000's of women have been raped before, is this valid justification to permit another women to be raped? Dont think so. The English tried to assimilate the Native Americans. Then they tried to assimilate the French Canadians during the early days of Canada. This was an immoral act.


[49:13] O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).


Yet it seems most of our NEIGHBOURS in the Middle East are doing exactly the opposite. And some people actually support it. :?

:sl:

[Grace Seeker]

Now mix that in with cultural assimilation and poof...no more Kurds.

Why would the Kurds be anymore likely to disappear anymore than the Native American Indian? Certainly their land has been taken from them. Another form of government and language has become the dominant of the land they live in, and they are free to assimilate, many of them having chosen to do so. And yet, they still exist as a separate ethnic group within the larger culture. Many maintainin their old ways, not just in language and culture, but in their entire lifestyle. If this can happen living in the middle of a culture that seems to be taking over the whole world, why could Kurds living in Iraq, Turkey and other places still maintain their own identity? One does not need a country to maintain one's identity. Just look at the Jews. Though they have their "own" country today (and I don't choose to go back 60 years to debate whether that was a good or bad idea) they survived for 1900 years without a country, and despite the evil intentions of Hitler and Stalin, I am convinced would have continued to have survived even without the creation of a homeland.

Just because 1000's of women have been raped before, is this valid justification to permit another women to be raped?

No. But I do not understand how this applies to the topic being discussed. Are you suggesting that without a homeland that 1000s of Kurdish women will be raped? Are 1000s of Kurdish women being raped presently?

[Darkseid]

You can't do this in Iran alone, already we are talking about Iraq, Turkey, and Iran, plus all of their neighboring countries.

It isn't as much of a big deal as you think it is.

Maybe Kurdistan should have been formed instead of the countries that were, but that is now history.

Actually it isn't a matter of history, it is a matter of what god had told me.

I don't propose going back to correct it.

If we don't correct it, we'll all die in the future, because of it.

Do it here with Kurdistan, and you will have to do it again, and again, and again until every ethnic group has their own homeland, and once done then different types of Kurds will want their own autonomous part of Kurdistand and the process will continue to repeat itself until everyone is a country unto themselves.

You are being ridiculous. People just want to not be oppressed by other people. And why are you being so eager to demonize the Kurds? The Kurds are decendents of Noah, right? Like the Arabs right? They are your cousins, they have same ancestor as you. So stop treating them and everyone like vermin.

Yes, that is riduculous. And given that it is, let's stop the riduculousness where we are right now, before we create a Kurdistan.

Why don't you just stop being so racist about it?

Kurdistan will come to reality and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Accept it and grow up.

The Kurds are not trying to take over the world. Individual clans are not trying to seperate into smaller clans.

You are paranoid to the max and need something to calm your nerves. Maybe reading a civil rights book might do you some good.

There is more harm in not allowing the Kurds to establish their independence than there is oppressing them against their will into a super Arab state that controls everything and everyone. Where the Arabic language is the language of the world, which is no more advance than Persian, English, Chinese, Spanish, Russian, and all those other simpleminded languages (expressed vaguely as though created by created, but in reality by man).

The same can be said if we had the Jews or Americans controlling the world, where you have Hebrew or English dominated how we should speak rather allowing ourselves to live in a society that we ourselves can live peacefully and harmonistically.

All nationalist movements are evil.

No they aren't. Expansionism is evil, Nationalism is not.

Main Entry: seg·re·ga·tion

You don't have to act paranoid. I already know you have no idea as to what pacificism and oppression are about.

Skipping all the boring stuff again...

Well there goes your evidence. Nice to know that was just so easily thrown out of the window.

And now, the definition taken from M-W.com:
The separation for special treatment or observation of individuals or items from a larger group.

And that's evil because?

Israel and Kurdistan are the same thing: Giant facilities of segregation.

Was Kurdistan founded by Jews or Muslims? Are there Kurdish muslims? Does it say in the Koran that segregation is evil?

Israel isn't evil. Zionism is evil, but Israel isn't. It was justifiable territorial adjustment made by the British Government which at the time owned almost the whole globe. They had the right since Allah gave them the globe to do what they want to the Arabs in that area. Otherwise, don't you think Allah would have done something about it? Unless he was angry enough at the Arabs to not care about them?

By the way, segregation does not involve the establishment of

No, I do not.

Then why do you encourage the opposite?

I want there to be a society of understanding, where people of all kinds live together peacefully.

And you think overcrowding a city with immigrants would make that city more peaceful? Or mixing a society with communist Chinese and anti-communsity Jordans would make that society everlasting?

I know you don't many harm. But aren't at the level we need to be to work towards a United Earth Republic or a United Middle East Republic or whatever.

As I said in my first post, if there is no other option, if there is much ignorance in the rest of the Middle East that the Kurds are totally oppressed, then yes, there should be an independent Kurdistan.

Well that is how it is throughout the entire middle-east and has been for over four thousand years. The Kurds were oppressed by virtually everyone, regardless if they were Arab, Turk, Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Iranian (most of which are Persians), Greek, Roman, Akkadian, British, or even Hittite. All they want is to no longer be oppressed and to have a small era of self-independence.

You see my idea is to have a two-hundred year time of self-independence where people could work out their own problems and then join into a Global Union that would then tolerate each other and live peacefully.

But I believe that there are existing places that Kurds can go where they can live in peace and not be oppressed.

Well they could go to Antartica, but they would all die from the freezing cold.

Genocide is an act that Allah allows to happen.

The great flood of Noah is a terrific contradiction of that.

Allah has in the past kill off entire civilizations or allow them to be killed off, which is basically the same thing. But the reason why doesn't is because of a greater good that he represents that is bounded to the survival of the human species. That is something you have to understand if you really want humanity to exist in a liberalized community or a community where everyone lives in the same country.

The Tutsis, the Native Americans, the Jews, and so on.

The Native Americans were mercilessly killed off by diseases as much as they were by guns if not more so.

The Jews weren't as badly killed off by the holocaust as they make it out to be. We keep forgetting that slavs, gypsies, and other individuals were also targets of Nazism. And before then, virtually everyone became a target of slaughter if they looked different from everyone else.

Just because it was happening didn't mean that Allah did not will it to be stopped.

You are ignoring the bigger picture here. The truth of the matter is Allah could have made it stopped, but then what would happen? He would have to force it to stop again? And again. And again.

Allah would rather have us learn from our mistakes than to be our protector. Plus there could have been greater endangerments that could have arisen if he did got involved.

Like if he just threw a meteor into the atlantic and just a small one to scare away Columbus, then perhaps in the future Hitler manages to conquer all of Europe and then the rest of the world and the Natives were virtually killed off entirely rather than being reduced to a few hundred thousand.

So you have to remember the greater good and the reality to why things are progresses as they are under Allah's eyes.

But there is a way to undo Israel.

No there wasn't. The state of Israel was base on prophecy given several times by Allah to different individuals. It is cited in the Torah and in the Bible and is a clue to signal a period of time prior to the apocalypse. So it is suppose to exist. There is purpose for it as one of the many battle grounds between Isa's reincarnation and the false prophet.

I'm saying that there should NOT be a Jewish state.

And why is that?

There should not be a Kurdish state, or a Christian state, or whatever.

But there is a French State, a German state, a Russian state, a Chinese Communist state, a North Korean Communist State, a Vietnamese state, the Saudi Arabs have their own state, the Egyptians have their own state, and so on. So why can't the Kurds have their own state if these people have their own?

And by the way the Kurds are not Christains, most of them are muslims.

I'll answer that with your own words.

But already have with my previous arguments. Therfore, why should I bother?

Just think of Germany, England, France, and all those other evil nations that invaded the rest of the world.

Nations are never evil. And calling them evil is an act of racism, because you are calling their people evil by calling the nation that are a part of evil. The reason why I say this is because not everyone within the same country supports the same ideas. A lot of the time there are great disagreements, some which lead directly into a civil war.

Yet it seems most of our NEIGHBOURS in the Middle East are doing exactly the opposite. And some people actually support it.

I know. But they have to realize that we are suppose to have differences, otherwise we would be boring. It would be so boring to have a world full of Nazis.

Why would the Kurds be anymore likely to disappear anymore than the Native American Indian?

The Native Americans are not Indians. They are more closer related to the Tibetans.

One does not need a country to maintain one's identity.

True, but of a group of people want to create their country then aren't they entitled to do so? It is their land, their lives, their children, their people, and all they want is to take care of themselves.

Are 1000s of Kurdish women being raped presently?

Doesn't have to be presently. Simply having 10,000 Kurdish women raped anually should be enough to consider how bad things are and I bet they happen to be much worse than that in Turkey.

[Darkseid]

I'm sorry if my grammar cannot be understood, but I seriously need the edit feature added into this thread or the forum this thread belongs to.

[AHMED_GUREY]

Why would the Kurds be anymore likely to disappear anymore than the Native American Indian? Certainly their land has been taken from them. Another form of government and language has become the dominant of the land they live in, and they are free to assimilate, many of them having chosen to do so. And yet, they still exist as a separate ethnic group within the larger culture. Many maintainin their old ways, not just in language and culture, but in their entire lifestyle. If this can happen living in the middle of a culture that seems to be taking over the whole world, why could Kurds living in Iraq, Turkey and other places still maintain their own identity?

Why would the Kurds feel relief in your analogy of the Native Americans and present day US? when the natives themselves would rather have there lands back and become there own Nation, why should the Kurds accept the partitioning of their lands while others enjoy the fruits of having their own state?

One does not need a country to maintain one's identity. Just look at the Jews. Though they have their "own" country today (and I don't choose to go back 60 years to debate whether that was a good or bad idea) they survived for 1900 years without a country, and despite the evil intentions of Hitler and Stalin, I am convinced would have continued to have survived even without the creation of a homeland.

''Jews'' like ''muslims'' are not a homogenous ethnic group or a race they are followers of a religion and jews although not as diverse as muslims will differ culturally from country to country and have their own distinct identities also you should look up the Kingdoms of Khazaria and Himyar that were ruled by Jews

[Akil]

hehehehe the poll is not accurate. I accidentally hit I am a Muslim and I oppose instead of non Muslim and oppose and I couldn’t find a way to change it lol

[north_malaysian]

hehehehe the poll is not accurate. I accidentally hit I am a Muslim and I oppose instead of non Muslim and oppose and I couldn’t find a way to change it lol

maybe the mods can help doing something?

[Mezier]

Why would the Kurds be anymore likely to disappear anymore than the Native American Indian? Certainly their land has been taken from them. Another form of government and language has become the dominant of the land they live in, and they are free to assimilate, many of them having chosen to do so. And yet, they still exist as a separate ethnic group within the larger culture. Many maintainin their old ways, not just in language and culture, but in their entire lifestyle. If this can happen living in the middle of a culture that seems to be taking over the whole world, why could Kurds living in Iraq, Turkey and other places still maintain their own identity? One does not need a country to maintain one's identity. Just look at the Jews. Though they have their "own" country today (and I don't choose to go back 60 years to debate whether that was a good or bad idea) they survived for 1900 years without a country, and despite the evil intentions of Hitler and Stalin, I am convinced would have continued to have survived even without the creation of a homeland.

Dont know what you're speaking of...but when one thinks "The Americas" the last thing that comes to mind are the Native Americans. Open your eyes. The Natives have almost lost their identity. Where they should be a majority, they are actually a minority - they account for 1% (!!) of the total population of the US according to a 2004 census. I admit. I dont know much about the Natives, but like brother Ahmed said: their situation brings no relief from oppresion.

No. But I do not understand how this applies to the topic being discussed. Are you suggesting that without a homeland that 1000s of Kurdish women will be raped? Are 1000s of Kurdish women being raped presently?

Are you purposely dancing around my words or the my point just swoosh by your ears. Let me clarify:

I asked this question, Just because 1000's of women have been raped before, is this valid justification to permit another women to be raped? The answer is obviously "no". Why? Because it is an immoral act.

Now apply the same principle to the us. Just because other cultures have been suppresed, assimilated, forgotten their own individuality, and lost their history, do you think it is right to let it happen again?

:sl:

[Skillganon]

Where is Kurdistan?

I also think that arabic language should be one of the language learnt since it is the language of the Quran.

I am all for Shariah Law.

Anyway I don't know much about Kurdistan for an independent country. I seen to many middle-east independent countries that spit venom at each other and turn their back since they are not from their country.

[Akil]

This should probably be in fiqh topics but it has been mentioned here so many times so I will address it here.

Why do ymany of you keep saying countries should be sharia even though you can’t produce a real working sharia since not long after the time of nabi Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon him)?

Do you appreciate the injustices committed in the name of sharia?

[Skillganon]

This should probably be in fiqh topics but it has been mentioned here so many times so I will address it here.

Why do ymany of you keep saying countries should be sharia even though you can’t produce a real working sharia since not long after the time of nabi Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon him)?

Do you appreciate the injustices committed in the name of sharia?

Injustice int he name of Allah/shariah democracy, freedom, liberalism is not permissable when itself is contradictory to what Allah(s.w.t) has ordained.

If one is talking about miscarriage than that is a seperate issue that needs to be talked else where, however it does not mean one should not or try to apply the Shariah(Islam).

[Akil]

however it does not mean one should not or try to apply the Shariah(Islam).

Because we have so many awesome examples right? Iran, Saudi Arabia, certain countries in Africa, what else am I missing?

Do you think these countries are reflective of true sharia?

If every country that installs sharia installs a false or misguided sharia you just keep turning them out anyway?

[Skillganon]

Because we have so many awesome examples right? Iran, Saudi Arabia, certain countries in Africa, what else am I missing?

Do you think these countries are reflective of true sharia?

If every country that installs sharia installs a false or misguided sharia you just keep turning them out anyway?

Not really, that is because their are people who try to undermine it everytime when people try poltically and millitary.
Their is nothing wrong with the Shariah Law.

IF you wan't to talk about miscarriage of Law than their is plenty of miscarriage with man made law not to mention injustice and bias, it is better to carry this on another thread.

[abdil han]

salam all,

i wanna talk about kurdistan,not much about shariah,

i m a turk n living in turkey,there are more than 10 million kurds in my country and we are living in peace,
they have what we have,there is not a seperation or an unequalism,so no need to be a different country,,i have many kurdish friends,,non of them wanna be independent,,,if all these kurds want independent,,it s very hard to stop them,but just a small percentage of them wants this,,and they killed 35 000 innocent for this aim in the last 25 years in turkey...

beside,the map which a bro posted before is nt completely true,,those cities are nt purely kurdish living areas,at least half of the populations are turks,and also kurds are living in every city in turkey,so we can nt make a seperation in this...

beside,about talabani's ideas on northern irak; they moved by thousands to kerkuk in the last couple years n now they wanna make a counting to declare that Kerkuk is a kurdish city,,this is not right n i want u to know that Kerkuk has the largest oil reserves in irak!!!

we splitted enough,,no need for more!

assalamu aleykum

[Grace Seeker]

It isn't as much of a big deal as you think it is.



Actually it isn't a matter of history, it is a matter of what god had told me.



If we don't correct it, we'll all die in the future, because of it.



You are being ridiculous. People just want to not be oppressed by other people. And why are you being so eager to demonize the Kurds? The Kurds are decendents of Noah, right? Like the Arabs right? They are your cousins, they have same ancestor as you. So stop treating them and everyone like vermin.



Why don't you just stop being so racist about it?

Kurdistan will come to reality and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Accept it and grow up.

The Kurds are not trying to take over the world. Individual clans are not trying to seperate into smaller clans.

You are paranoid to the max and need something to calm your nerves. Maybe reading a civil rights book might do you some good.

There is more harm in not allowing the Kurds to establish their independence than there is oppressing them against their will into a super Arab state that controls everything and everyone. Where the Arabic language is the language of the world, which is no more advance than Persian, English, Chinese, Spanish, Russian, and all those other simpleminded languages (expressed vaguely as though created by created, but in reality by man).

The same can be said if we had the Jews or Americans controlling the world, where you have Hebrew or English dominated how we should speak rather allowing ourselves to live in a society that we ourselves can live peacefully and harmonistically.



No they aren't. Expansionism is evil, Nationalism is not.



You don't have to act paranoid. I already know you have no idea as to what pacificism and oppression are about.



Well there goes your evidence. Nice to know that was just so easily thrown out of the window.



And that's evil because?



Was Kurdistan founded by Jews or Muslims? Are there Kurdish muslims? Does it say in the Koran that segregation is evil?

Israel isn't evil. Zionism is evil, but Israel isn't. It was justifiable territorial adjustment made by the British Government which at the time owned almost the whole globe. They had the right since Allah gave them the globe to do what they want to the Arabs in that area. Otherwise, don't you think Allah would have done something about it? Unless he was angry enough at the Arabs to not care about them?

By the way, segregation does not involve the establishment of



Then why do you encourage the opposite?



And you think overcrowding a city with immigrants would make that city more peaceful? Or mixing a society with communist Chinese and anti-communsity Jordans would make that society everlasting?

I know you don't many harm. But aren't at the level we need to be to work towards a United Earth Republic or a United Middle East Republic or whatever.



Well that is how it is throughout the entire middle-east and has been for over four thousand years. The Kurds were oppressed by virtually everyone, regardless if they were Arab, Turk, Sumerian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Persian, Iranian (most of which are Persians), Greek, Roman, Akkadian, British, or even Hittite. All they want is to no longer be oppressed and to have a small era of self-independence.

You see my idea is to have a two-hundred year time of self-independence where people could work out their own problems and then join into a Global Union that would then tolerate each other and live peacefully.



Well they could go to Antartica, but they would all die from the freezing cold.



The great flood of Noah is a terrific contradiction of that.

Allah has in the past kill off entire civilizations or allow them to be killed off, which is basically the same thing. But the reason why doesn't is because of a greater good that he represents that is bounded to the survival of the human species. That is something you have to understand if you really want humanity to exist in a liberalized community or a community where everyone lives in the same country.



The Native Americans were mercilessly killed off by diseases as much as they were by guns if not more so.

The Jews weren't as badly killed off by the holocaust as they make it out to be. We keep forgetting that slavs, gypsies, and other individuals were also targets of Nazism. And before then, virtually everyone became a target of slaughter if they looked different from everyone else.



You are ignoring the bigger picture here. The truth of the matter is Allah could have made it stopped, but then what would happen? He would have to force it to stop again? And again. And again.

Allah would rather have us learn from our mistakes than to be our protector. Plus there could have been greater endangerments that could have arisen if he did got involved.

Like if he just threw a meteor into the atlantic and just a small one to scare away Columbus, then perhaps in the future Hitler manages to conquer all of Europe and then the rest of the world and the Natives were virtually killed off entirely rather than being reduced to a few hundred thousand.

So you have to remember the greater good and the reality to why things are progresses as they are under Allah's eyes.



No there wasn't. The state of Israel was base on prophecy given several times by Allah to different individuals. It is cited in the Torah and in the Bible and is a clue to signal a period of time prior to the apocalypse. So it is suppose to exist. There is purpose for it as one of the many battle grounds between Isa's reincarnation and the false prophet.



And why is that?



But there is a French State, a German state, a Russian state, a Chinese Communist state, a North Korean Communist State, a Vietnamese state, the Saudi Arabs have their own state, the Egyptians have their own state, and so on. So why can't the Kurds have their own state if these people have their own?

And by the way the Kurds are not Christains, most of them are muslims.



But already have with my previous arguments. Therfore, why should I bother?



Nations are never evil. And calling them evil is an act of racism, because you are calling their people evil by calling the nation that are a part of evil. The reason why I say this is because not everyone within the same country supports the same ideas. A lot of the time there are great disagreements, some which lead directly into a civil war.



I know. But they have to realize that we are suppose to have differences, otherwise we would be boring. It would be so boring to have a world full of Nazis.



The Native Americans are not Indians. They are more closer related to the Tibetans.



True, but of a group of people want to create their country then aren't they entitled to do so? It is their land, their lives, their children, their people, and all they want is to take care of themselves.



Doesn't have to be presently. Simply having 10,000 Kurdish women raped anually should be enough to consider how bad things are and I bet they happen to be much worse than that in Turkey.

Darkseid,

You have done me several injustices in your above post, and I respectfully ask that you correct those which can be corrected.

The first of those is one that should be easy to correct. You made a very long post, with many quotes. The first of those (and some subsequent ones) were taken from a post I made. I am quite willing to own my statements, even if later I am corrected on them I did initially say them. But not all of the quotes in the post are statements I made. They are from other posters. Indeed some of those quotes are ones that I actually disagree with. Yet, you have only posted in such a way that my name is listed and none of the others are identified with their comments. Thus it looks like all of those posts are mine. Please edit your post to correct this. If you do not know how to do this, ask a mod for assistance or eliminate the post. I would not want others to think that all of the views listed therein are my views when they are not.



Second, you have accused me of trying to demonize the Kurds. I don't think that I have said anything against a Kurd in this whole topic, or any other topic.

Third, you have stated that the Kurds are my cousins. On what basis do you make this statement? I suppose it could be said that the entire world is cousins, if that is what you meant, then it is true. But beyond that, you are using hyperbole that does not apply.

You accuse me of treating the Kurds like vermin. I don't understand why you have that view. I do not desire to get rid of the Kurds, and do not believe I have said anything that could even be misinterpreted this way except by one who chose to read into my posts that which is simply not there.

You accuse me of being racist. Again, on what grounds please? To my knowledge, I have never met a Kurd. I would not know how to distinguish a Kurd from any other human being. I would not object if I learned that a person seeking to move in next door to me, who worked with me, who choose to marry one of my daughters was a Kurd. I don't believe in the establishment of an independent Kurdistan, but it has nothing to do with ethnicity. Quite the contrary, it seems to me that seeking to establish a country based solely on culture and ethnicity would be to use race as a determining factor. Would that not be the racist position?

I have never suggested that Kurds are trying to take over the world.

In what ways am I beling paranoid? Do you think I fear Kurds or feel under attack from them? I do not.

What type of civil rights book do you suggest I read? How about one that does not make assumptions regarding other people that one does not know? Would that be an appropriate books for this conversation?

Are you aware that my country has supported efforts to provide an autonomous goverment for the Kurds of Iraq? Are you aware that I have personal friends who, though not Kurds themselves, live in Iraqi-Kurdistan? They tell me nothing but good and positive things about their experience. And they like you support the formation of an new state of Kurdistan. And though I disagree with them when we have discussed this, they have never accused me of any of the things you have.

You make comments which suggest that I want to "oppress" the Kurds into some sort of super Arab state. I want no such thing.

In mixing comments that I made with comments which others made, you seem to have channelled all those who are againts a Kurdish nation into one megalithic idea in your own mind. But we have different reasons for our views, even if they come to the same conclusion. Please direct your arguments to those who own those view points. I certainly do not own them all, and do not like being labeled with such a broad brush. For making assumptions about me and my character, for stating things about me which are not true, and for attacking me for viewpoints which I do not hold, I believe I deserve and apology. However, I will be statisfied if you simply edit your posts so that others can see which ideas of mine you have critiqued are truly mine and not someone else's. Thank-you.

[Mezier]

:w:

salam all,

i wanna talk about kurdistan

Do so. But dont leave out important facts.

they have what we have,there is not a seperation or an unequalism,so no need to be a different country

The Kurds arent even recognized under the Turkish constitution. Just until about 10 years ago it was ILLEGAL to speak Kurdish. Turkish newspapers were shutdown by the government because they would mention Kurdish suffering - Anything that has the word "kurdish" in it is seen as a form of "terrorism" in Turkey. Ive been to Turkey many times, and when Im there I dont speak Kurdish ANYWHERE except in the kurdish cities...I dont even feel safe speaking in the airport!

and they killed 35 000 innocent for this aim in the last 25 years in turkey...

This is where you fail to mention what Turkey has done...

According to the Turkey's very own parliament:
-In 1999, the death toll of Kurds killed in Turkish military operations increased to over 40,000
-The destruction of 6,000 Kurdish villages
-And the displacement of 3,000,000 Kurds

People have estimated that over 500,000 Kurds have been killed over the years at the hands of the Turks

beside,about talabani's ideas on northern irak; they moved by thousands to kerkuk in the last couple years n now they wanna make a counting to declare that Kerkuk is a kurdish city,,this is not right n i want u to know that Kerkuk has the largest oil reserves in irak!!!

we splitted enough,,no need for more!

assalamu aleykum

Again you fail to mention the "Arabisation" that took place in the 1980's under Saddam. Prior to the 1980's, Kurds were the MAJORITY in Kirkuk (and other cities). But Saddam Hussien, during his Anfal campaign, kicked out the Kurds and replaced them with Arabs from the south - hence, "arabisation". These Arabs were actually given incentives and BENEFITS to move to Kurdish cities, in order to sway and modify the demographics (population). Now that we finally have some say in the Government of Iraq, a lot of Kurds are FINALLY getting back the land that they once owned. There is nothing wrong with this. Even if it means that Kirkuk is a Kurdish city - because this is the truth.

:w:

[abdil han]

:w:

The Kurds arent even recognized under the Turkish constitution. Just until about 10 years ago it was ILLEGAL to speak Kurdish. Turkish newspapers were shutdown by the government because they would mention Kurdish suffering - Anything that has the word "kurdish" in it is seen as a form of "terrorism" in Turkey. Ive been to Turkey many times, and when Im there I dont speak Kurdish ANYWHERE except in the kurdish cities...I dont even feel safe speaking in the airport!


This is where you fail to mention what Turkey has done...

According to the Turkey's very own parliament:
-In 1999, the death toll of Kurds killed in Turkish military operations increased to over 40,000
-The destruction of 6,000 Kurdish villages
-And the displacement of 3,000,000 Kurds

People have estimated that over 500,000 Kurds have been killed over the years at the hands of the Turks


Again you fail to mention the "Arabisation" that took place in the 1980's under Saddam. Prior to the 1980's, Kurds were the MAJORITY in Kirkuk (and other cities). But Saddam Hussien, during his Anfal campaign, kicked out the Kurds and replaced them with Arabs from the south - hence, "arabisation". These Arabs were actually given incentives and BENEFITS to move to Kurdish cities, in order to sway and modify the demographics (population). Now that we finally have some say in the Government of Iraq, a lot of Kurds are FINALLY getting back the land that they once owned. There is nothing wrong with this. Even if it means that Kirkuk is a Kurdish city - because this is the truth.

:w:

salam

firstly my country's name is Türkiye;that means lands of Turks,so isnt it normal to be the offical language is Turkish!?
beside;we had 8 presidents in our republic history n 3 of these were Kurdish,

since 10 years ago,speaking kurdish was forbidden,but only in governmental buildings n so,this is normal,,turkish is the only official language in this country..

as you said,we didnt kill innocent people anytime,,n the number of deaths are nt so many,,the army fights only against kurdish terrorists on mountains,,n we also lost many people...

you may ve been here for many times,but i was born here,i live here n i lived in Kars(a half kurdish city in the east) for 2 years,,i lived with them n i had many kurdish friends there,they were nt complaining about anything...

maybe you can nt even imagine but we ve been living with our kurdish people for hundreds of years and we fought together against invaders during WW1 n War of Independance,,..

about kerkuk,originally it is a turkmen city,Saddam sent many arabs there but this doesnt change the truth...beside,as i see it you believe in the support of america to kurds in irak now...but you better understand that they only care oil,money,power..none of us!..
Talabani is the president of irak now but this is only a part of the game,nothing else,irakians must ve chosen him,not america...

anyway,,peace be upon you bro...

[budda]

I do believe Kurds should get there own land. Like the Jews they are treated like dirt everywhere they go for no good reason so a small homeland could resolve a lot of issues or create a whole bunch more.

[Mezier]

salam

firstly my country's name is T&#252;rkiye;that means lands of Turks,so isnt it normal to be the offical language is Turkish!?
beside;we had 8 presidents in our republic history n 3 of these were Kurdish,

since 10 years ago,speaking kurdish was forbidden,but only in governmental buildings n so,this is normal,,turkish is the only official language in this country..

as you said,we didnt kill innocent people anytime,,n the number of deaths are nt so many,,the army fights only against kurdish terrorists on mountains,,n we also lost many people...

you may ve been here for many times,but i was born here,i live here n i lived in Kars(a half kurdish city in the east) for 2 years,,i lived with them n i had many kurdish friends there,they were nt complaining about anything...

maybe you can nt even imagine but we ve been living with our kurdish people for hundreds of years and we fought together against invaders during WW1 n War of Independance,,..

about kerkuk,originally it is a turkmen city,Saddam sent many arabs there but this doesnt change the truth...beside,as i see it you believe in the support of america to kurds in irak now...but you better understand that they only care oil,money,power..none of us!..
Talabani is the president of irak now but this is only a part of the game,nothing else,irakians must ve chosen him,not america...

anyway,,peace be upon you bro...

:sl:
and Kurdistan means the Land of the Kurds. Why cant we have the same thing you have?

What I was talking about was before 1991 Kurdish was illegal everywhere...language and signs. Then after Ozal died (who supported the Kurds), they made it illegal only in government buildings. Yet you dont see this as UNEQUALISM? When a large portion of your population is Kurdish, and you dont recognize them?

I want a place where the OFFICIAL language is Kurdish - or atleast a recognised language. Where we can hang Kurdish signs without any trouble. Where we can teach our kids the history of the Kurds. Where our schools teach Kurdish as a primary language. And I want all of this without any problems or discrimination from the governments that share our land. Yet this hasnt been possible while living under the rule of other governments. It isnt our fault we want a country. We want this because of the amount of oppresion we have witnessed at the hands of our neighbours. Simply, it is cause-and-effect.


:w:

[Akil]

Salah al-Din was Kurdish, isn’t he one of the greatest Muslim leaders in history?

[Warthog]

:sl:
nationalism, which the Prophet (pbuh) compared to biting your father's genitals.

Um, hmmm. Nationalism.... biting dad's genitals...... hmm. Ok then. Yeah, I see the comparison. It is the same.

[Mezier]

Salah al-Din was Kurdish, isn’t he one of the greatest Muslim leaders in history?

:sl:
indeed he was.
:sl:

[Dawud_uk]

Um, hmmm. Nationalism.... biting dad's genitals...... hmm. Ok then. Yeah, I see the comparison. It is the same.

if i remember correctly, the quote is that the prophet Muhammad saws is reported to have said 'if you find someone bragging about their ancestry like in the days of Jahiliyyah (pre Islamic ignorance) then tell him to bite his fathers private parts and do not use a euphemism'

[Dawud_uk]

:sl:
indeed he was.
:sl:

assalaamu alaykum,

true but he was not a narrow minded nationalist, he was a kurd but he was a muslim first and last.

we will not secure victory for the muslims without returning to this principle and leaving nationalism.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Count DeSheep]

It was justifiable territorial adjustment made by the British Government which at the time owned almost the whole globe.

I would be angry at you for being so foolish, but I will let you slide. You cannot help it if you are ignorant of how evil the British truly are.

And I agree with Grace Seeker.

In mixing comments that I made with comments which others made, you seem to have channelled all those who are againts a Kurdish nation into one megalithic idea in your own mind. But we have different reasons for our views, even if they come to the same conclusion. Please direct your arguments to those who own those view points. I certainly do not own them all, and do not like being labeled with such a broad brush. For making assumptions about me and my character, for stating things about me which are not true, and for attacking me for viewpoints which I do not hold, I believe I deserve and apology. However, I will be statisfied if you simply edit your posts so that others can see which ideas of mine you have critiqued are truly mine and not someone else's. Thank-you.

[Count DeSheep]

we will not secure victory for the muslims without returning to this principle and leaving nationalism.

I agree, but make that a bit broader. As in, not just about Muslims. =D

[thirdwatch512]

i am a very very strong supporter of kurdistan. and i pray that one day they will become a nation. :)

[abdil han]

i am a very very strong supporter of kurdistan. and i pray that one day they will become a nation. :)

why??

to take all their oil?

or,,,

to settle some other military bases?


or,,

to control all mideast from there?

everyone knows the truths,,everyone knows why america support kurds there...

[arabiyyah]

why??

to take all their oil?

or,,,

to settle some other military bases?


or,,

to control all mideast from there?

everyone knows the truths,,everyone knows why america support kurds there...

nah cause its there land. if ya support palestine or chechens, then your a hypocrite to not support the kurds, no matter how much you love those shia in iran.

[Grace Seeker]

why??

to take all their oil?

or,,,

to settle some other military bases?


or,,

to control all mideast from there?

everyone knows the truths,,everyone knows why america support kurds there...

You know more than I do.

Large all-encompassing statements such as 'everyone" will ALWAYS get a reaction from me.

First, I am an American. If you read this thread, you will see that I do NOT support an independent Kurdistan.

Second, those Americans who I know who favor a Kurdistan do so because they think it would be at least one region that would be stable, not for oil or any of the reason you mentioned.

Third, whatever the conversations exploring multiple options might include, the USA's official policy is presently opposed to any division of Iraq into separate parts. So, the idea of an independent Kurdistan, while being talked about, is not something that the USA actually favors.

Fourth, I am opposed to an independent Kurdistan not because of Iraq, but because I do not want to see Turkey carved up. So, please be careful in making such broad statements as you have above, you may find that it is your supporters that you are insulting.

[Grace Seeker]

nah cause its there land. if ya support palestine or chechens, then your a hypocrite to not support the kurds, no matter how much you love those shia in iran.

I can see how one can link those three, but one does not have to link those together into one position.

I believe that Israel has oppressed the Palestinians over the years, and manipulated the "resettlement" of the West Bank in such a way as to take lands away from some people (mostly Palestinians) and unjustly give it to others (nearly all Israelis). Thus I am not a supporter of Israel when it comes to the Palestinian issue (though I do support Israel's right to exist and do not think that the Palestinians hands are exactly clean either). Because Israel was in the position of power relative to the Palestinians, they need to be held accountable for how they have aggrevated an already bad situation for both sides, and made it worse (and worse particularly for the Palestinians).

Chechnya is a completely different story. Though there are some similarities, they are not enough to suggest that there should be the creation of an independent Chechen state.

And with Kurdistan, I don't think it would just make matters worse. There are many Kurds living outside the borders of the proposed Kurdistan. The majority of Kurds in Turkey live happily and peacably with Turks as their neighbors. True the Kurds were brutalized under Saddam Hussein, but that is no longer an issue. True in Turkey there is still sectarian violence. But if the PKK would stop its campaign of terror, I believe these would soon disappear.

However, if the Kurds ever win the support of the international community for a country of their own, then I predict that every ethnic group in the world will follow on their heels seeking the same thing. We will not have just the Balkanization of the Balkans; we will have the Balkanization of the world. I believe such actions will lead to more not less violence in the world. A line has to be drawn sometime and place, and now (not halfway down some slippery slope in the future) is when it needs to be drawn.

[abdil han]

nah cause its there land. if ya support palestine or chechens, then your a hypocrite to not support the kurds, no matter how much you love those shia in iran.

salam,
sister im not shi'a or iranian,im sunni n turk,

as i see it u think that this is their right,as yours...please look at your own nation,,there are 22 independent arabic country,and most of them are paining,our problem is being departed into many minnor countries,we need to be united to be strong,,,now you have oil n kuwait is rich,,,n you are safe....but not ur brothers,,and an independent kurdistan will be another ''israel'' there,,do you know that ''barzani''(kurdish leader in irak n possible president if they found kurdistan) is half israeli(some of his his relatives r living in israel n jew)...

palestinians n chechens are totaly different manner,,chechens wanna be independent coz russians are nt muslim n the same in palestinian,,,but now saddam reign is over n kurds are okay in irak as in turkey,,we dont have any problem with kurd brothers here,,i have many kurdish friends and none of them wanna be independent...

anyway,
wassalam

[thirdwatch512]

why??

to take all their oil?

or,,,

to settle some other military bases?


or,,

to control all mideast from there?

everyone knows the truths,,everyone knows why america support kurds there...

i support the kurds because they are very "reformed" people per se. they are more modern then any other group of people in that area.. there are even synagogues there! and you won't find that in any other area in that region besides israel and very liberal parts of turkey.

it's not for their oil at all.. heck, i personally don't care if they wouldn't sell any oil to america! if i was the president of one of those countries i would prolly stop selling oil to america too lol. and i certainly don't support it for military bases.. in fact i think that the U.S. should close all the bases in that area.

i support them, just as i support the chechens, and the quebecois, and those people in eastern spain.

[abdil han]

Fourth, I am opposed to an independent Kurdistan not because of Iraq, but because I do not want to see Turkey carved up. So, please be careful in making such broad statements as you have above, you may find that it is your supporters that you are insulting.

dear Grace seeker,

thanks for ur explainations,

i did not mean the ''americans'', i meant ''american policies'',,,
of course america can not say that they want an independent kurdistan ,,this causes a crisis between usa n turkey,,but they armed kurdish group in northern irak,this was a proved truth,,last year,some kurdish terrorists(PKK) captured by turkish forces n the weapons were all american made...if you know, in 1996s,there was an american force in turkey which called ''hammer force'' who supposed to help turkish army against PKK..they were throwing some packages to the hills from helicopters,as they said those were food,clothes n such stuffs inside,,but some after PKK began to use some heavy weapons against us and after some investigations,those weapons were in the packages..(my uncle was in the army at that time n he fought against PKK for many years and he saw those weapons)...

and now us politics say that they never support independent kurdistan or they never support PKK ,,so how can we believe them after all!?

about oil in irak,,

before the irak war,most of the oil companies in irak were russian,french,german n chinese,,only usa n britain was out of that market,and usa n britain attacked irak first,,thay claimed that irak has chemical or nuclear weapons,,and they couldnt find any!! it was just for justifying the war...and now all the oil companies will be american n british...this is not fare,
every day ,100 people is dying in irak avarage,,
and more than 650 000 peole died already,,no body care them,,they just deal with their benefits...money,,oil,,weapon,,,

by the way,
thanks for caring turkey,,

peace on you...

[abdil han]

i support the kurds because they are very "reformed" people per se. they are more modern then any other group of people in that area.. there are even synagogues there! and you won't find that in any other area in that region besides israel and very liberal parts of turkey.

it's not for their oil at all.. heck, i personally don't care if they wouldn't sell any oil to america! if i was the president of one of those countries i would prolly stop selling oil to america too lol. and i certainly don't support it for military bases.. in fact i think that the U.S. should close all the bases in that area.

i support them, just as i support the chechens, and the quebecois, and those people in eastern spain.

hi,
how you know that kurds are more modern than others there?
have u ever been there?

about synagogs;barzani is half israeli,maybe thats why there they are...
about turkey,we have jew people n they have right to pray however they want,,but the same manner is not in some other ''very modern'' european countries,,,such as greece,,you know in Athens there are nearly 40-50 000 muslim people,,but there is not even 1 mosque!! so should we create a ''small county'' for them??

maybe you dont care about oil but ur politics do,,!

maybe you want to close all military bases ,but ur politics want to make more,,!

they prove these all by their deeds,,

small countries are easy to control, and be cause of this,i dont want any other seperation in my region...we have been seperated more than enough...

peace

[thirdwatch512]

hi,
how you know that kurds are more modern than others there?
have u ever been there?

about synagogs;barzani is half israeli,maybe thats why there they are...
about turkey,we have jew people n they have right to pray however they want,,but the same manner is not in some other ''very modern'' european countries,,,such as greece,,you know in Athens there are nearly 40-50 000 muslim people,,but there is not even 1 mosque!! so should we create a ''small county'' for them??

maybe you dont care about oil but ur politics do,,!

maybe you want to close all military bases ,but ur politics want to make more,,!

they prove these all by their deeds,,

small countries are easy to control, and be cause of this,i dont want any other seperation in my region...we have been seperated more than enough...

peace

well first off, the muslims aren't the majority at all in athens. so therefore no.

the kurds represent the vast majority of kurdistan lol. and i know they are more modern because the number of suicide bombers in that region.. VERY low. and i've met kurds before and they are just more modern then others.

and i think that if the U.K. has cities that are majoriy muslims, i wouldn't mind the shariah being implemented but ONLY for muslims. i wouldn't let the laws be applied for non muslims, and only certain areas should have it. and it should be a malaysia type shariah, not saudi arabia.

[Grace Seeker]

well first off, the muslims aren't the majority at all in athens. so therefore no.

the kurds represent the vast majority of kurdistan

By this line of reasoning, would you be willing to redraw the international borders between the USA and Mexico in Texas, so that those portions of south Texas that are more Mexican than gringo could become part of Mexico?

And perhaps while we are at it, cede the Cuban parts of south Florida to Cuba, the Canadian parts of northern Vermont to Canada, and the entire states of Minnesota and Wisconsin to Norway and Sweden.

Before you say that those who want to live in those cultures already have countries they can migrate to, consider this. Since northern Iraq is already considered to be an autonomous Kurdistan, why not just tell all Turkish Kurds who want to be part of Kurdistan to move across the border and quite fighting against the majority of Kurds in Turkey who do NOT wish for an independent Kurdistan?

Further, one could certainly make a case that the USA ought to relenquish governing authority over the Native American populations within its borders and set each of those Indian nations up as independent countries completely autonomous from American government. At least we could give Hawaii back to the Hawaiians and and create the countries of Eskimo and Inyuit out of Alaska and northern Canada.

As you and I live both in the USA, let us get our own house in order before we continue to impose our views on other countries. I think Turkey is in a better position to deal with this issue than we are.

and i think that if the U.K. has cities that are majoriy muslims, i wouldn't mind the shariah being implemented but ONLY for muslims. i wouldn't let the laws be applied for non muslims, and only certain areas should have it. and it should be a malaysia type shariah, not saudi arabia.

And should an independent Kurdistan be created, from which other countries is it to be formed. From just northern Iraq and eastern Turkey? Shouldn't part of Iran and perhaps Syria and some other countries also be included in it. And then, would the laws of the Kurds be applied to Iranians, Iraqis, Turks, Syrians and others who live within those borders?

I see from your previous post that you also support independent countries for the Quebecois and Basque. Exactly how small are you willing to go in carving up existing nations to create new nations for every ethnic group? Should the Hmong people of the highlands of Vietnam and Laos have their own country too? How about the native people of Taiwan/Formosa (or whatever you all it) before Chiang Kai-shek ran there with his nationalistic Chinese forces and imposed their will on those who lived there before them? Certainly the Mapuche of Chile, who never bowed to the Spanish conquistadores should be given southern Chile as their own country, except of course there are some other ethnic groups living their besides the Mapuche. Does each island in the Philippines become an independent country?

Interesting that in your England senario that only certain areas of these communities that are majority muslims would have shariah law applied. Could we determine it on a block by block basis? This block is predominately Muslim, where we have Shariah law. The next one isn't, here we don't have Shariah law. And if one block is predominantly Muslim from Saudi Arabia, why can't they have the Saudi form of Sharia law? Can we do the same thing in Austin where you live while we are at it, Thirdwatch? I'm sure that there are parts of Austin that are majority Muslim.

I get the emotions of your argument. But the realities of it are such a slippery slope that I fear the world could never recover.

[thirdwatch512]

By this line of reasoning, would you be willing to redraw the international borders between the USA and Mexico in Texas, so that those portions of south Texas that are more Mexican than gringo could become part of Mexico?

And perhaps while we are at it, cede the Cuban parts of south Florida to Cuba, the Canadian parts of northern Vermont to Canada, and the entire states of Minnesota and Wisconsin to Norway and Sweden.

Before you say that those who want to live in those cultures already have countries they can migrate to, consider this. Since northern Iraq is already considered to be an autonomous Kurdistan, why not just tell all Turkish Kurds who want to be part of Kurdistan to move across the border and quite fighting against the majority of Kurds in Turkey who do NOT wish for an independent Kurdistan?

Further, one could certainly make a case that the USA ought to relenquish governing authority over the Native American populations within its borders and set each of those Indian nations up as independent countries completely autonomous from American government. At least we could give Hawaii back to the Hawaiians and and create the countries of Eskimo and Inyuit out of Alaska and northern Canada.

As you and I live both in the USA, let us get our own house in order before we continue to impose our views on other countries. I think Turkey is in a better position to deal with this issue than we are.




And should an independent Kurdistan be created, from which other countries is it to be formed. From just northern Iraq and eastern Turkey? Shouldn't part of Iran and perhaps Syria and some other countries also be included in it. And then, would the laws of the Kurds be applied to Iranians, Iraqis, Turks, Syrians and others who live within those borders?

I see from your previous post that you also support independent countries for the Quebecois and Basque. Exactly how small are you willing to go in carving up existing nations to create new nations for every ethnic group? Should the Hmong people of the highlands of Vietnam and Laos have their own country too? How about the native people of Taiwan/Formosa (or whatever you all it) before Chiang Kai-shek ran there with his nationalistic Chinese forces and imposed their will on those who lived there before them? Certainly the Mapuche of Chile, who never bowed to the Spanish conquistadores should be given southern Chile as their own country, except of course there are some other ethnic groups living their besides the Mapuche. Does each island in the Philippines become an independent country?

Interesting that in your England senario that only certain areas of these communities that are majority muslims would have shariah law applied. Could we determine it on a block by block basis? This block is predominately Muslim, where we have Shariah law. The next one isn't, here we don't have Shariah law. And if one block is predominantly Muslim from Saudi Arabia, why can't they have the Saudi form of Sharia law? Can we do the same thing in Austin where you live while we are at it, Thirdwatch? I'm sure that there are parts of Austin that are majority Muslim.

I get the emotions of your argument. But the realities of it are such a slippery slope that I fear the world could never recover.

no reason to get all mean about it!


and i wouldn't support giving southern florida back to cuba because the majoirty of southern floridans wouldn't support that. same thing here in the south with aztlan. but if the majority of the people did want that and had just cause, sure, why not! and i'm talking about the vast majoirty, not just a small 50%.

as for shariah in the U.K.. i don't know how that would work lol. not block by block though. but if there was a CITY with overwhelmingly majority muslim, i don't see why shariah would be bad if the overwhelmingly majority supported it in that area. but the shariah would only be for muslims. no non muslims would be under it. and i wouldn't let the entire UK have shariah for muslims because a lot of people move to the UK to get AWAY from the shariah. therefore i don't think it would be a problem if certain areas were, but not all of the UK.

technically though i am a major sceptic of shariah law, as i am a homosexual.. so i don't want it at all. but i think it the muslims wanted it, but ONLY for them and ONLY for those willing to live under it, then i don't see a problem.

and actually austin doesn't have a muslim majority anywhere.. no where. :) not a subdivision, not a street, no where lol.

[Grace Seeker]

no reason to get all mean about it!


and i wouldn't support giving southern florida back to cuba because the majoirty of southern floridans wouldn't support that. same thing here in the south with aztlan. but if the majority of the people did want that and had just cause, sure, why not! and i'm talking about the vast majoirty, not just a small 50%.

as for shariah in the U.K.. i don't know how that would work lol. not block by block though. but if there was a CITY with overwhelmingly majority muslim, i don't see why shariah would be bad if the overwhelmingly majority supported it in that area. but the shariah would only be for muslims. no non muslims would be under it. and i wouldn't let the entire UK have shariah for muslims because a lot of people move to the UK to get AWAY from the shariah. therefore i don't think it would be a problem if certain areas were, but not all of the UK.

technically though i am a major sceptic of shariah law, as i am a homosexual.. so i don't want it at all. but i think it the muslims wanted it, but ONLY for them and ONLY for those willing to live under it, then i don't see a problem.

and actually austin doesn't have a muslim majority anywhere.. no where. :) not a subdivision, not a street, no where lol.

Sorry, you think I'm mean.

What would you call those who blew up a building in Istanbul near where my daughter lives?

BTW, the folks who attend the Austin Peace Academy might be surprised to learn that no where in Austin is there an Muslim majority.

[thirdwatch512]

Sorry, you think I'm mean.

What would you call those who blew up a building in Istanbul near where my daughter lives?

terrorists. why?

[thirdwatch512]

Sorry, you think I'm mean.

What would you call those who blew up a building in Istanbul near where my daughter lives?

BTW, the folks who attend the Austin Peace Academy might be surprised to learn that no where in Austin is there an Muslim majority.

yes, there's an islamic school here. there are also two mosques. that doesn't mean all the muslims are centered around them. there's also like 6 synagogues and two jewish schools. but the jews aren't the majority. there's 4 hindu temples.. hindu's aren't the majority! and the baha'i faith is booming everywhere.. but baha'is aren't the majority.

[Grace Seeker]

terrorists. why?

They call themselves Kurdish freedom fighters.


Not a street with a Muslim majority? I haven't actually done a religious census of Austin. Have you? Hint: if want to save some time, just start in the 9200 and 9300 blocks of North Lamar.

[Grace Seeker]

yes, there's an islamic school here. there are also two mosques. that doesn't mean all the muslims are centered around them. there's also like 6 synagogues and two jewish schools. but the jews aren't the majority. there's 4 hindu temples.. hindu's aren't the majority! and the baha'i faith is booming everywhere.. but baha'is aren't the majority.

I didn't say in the whole city. I am using your argument that if a subsection can be found that wants something, then give it to them. You may not like my categorization of your argument in those terms, but that is essentially what it appears to be to me unless you care to clarify. And certainly, since there are Muslims in the city, there are indeed subsections where they are the majority. It may be just where 2 or 3 Muslims live next door to each other, but they are there.

[islamway]

well where ever we leave even in between kafirs we should live with our principles as muslim.

[Grace Seeker]

well where ever we leave even in between kafirs we should live with our principles as muslim.

No argument with you on that. I would expect nothing less from a true Muslim.

[thirdwatch512]

They call themselves Kurdish freedom fighters.


Not a street with a Muslim majority? I haven't actually done a religious census of Austin. Have you? Hint: if want to save some time, just start in the 9200 and 9300 blocks of North Lamar.

i support a free kurdistan.. but of course i don't support the terrorist actions that some use to acheive that!

and if there was a kurdistan, there would be no need for "freedom fighters!!!"

and i don't know how to do a religious census. but austin is pretty much like this....

30% atheist
34% catholic
30% protestant
4% jewish
2% other (mainly hindu, muslim, and baha'i)
atheist and catholic are growing the fastest, while protestant is growing slowest. but due to immigration, we are having a HUGE surge in those who profess to the church that jesus made!!!!! :)(aka catholic church)

[sevgi]

i dnt even want to imagine an independent kudistan...

they have killed too many of not only their own people but turks also...its hard to accept it.all they want is the turkish soil...without earnig it. i dnt want to imagine a indep. kurdistan where honour killings are as free as playing chess,where silly rituals overtake fundamentals....where hating turks is instilled into the children,....

its not jst freedom fighters...they kill their own people for screwed up reasons.

its disgusting.

[Grace Seeker]

i support a free kurdistan.. but of course i don't support the terrorist actions that some use to acheive that!

and if there was a kurdistan, there would be no need for "freedom fighters!!!"

and i don't know how to do a religious census. but austin is pretty much like this....

30% atheist
34% catholic
30% protestant
4% jewish
2% other (mainly hindu, muslim, and baha'i)
atheist and catholic are growing the fastest, while protestant is growing slowest. but due to immigration, we are having a HUGE surge in those who profess to the church that jesus made!!!!! :)(aka catholic church)

OK. Fine. I accept those numbers. But, my point still is that there are small, albiet very small, locales within the city where two or three Muslims live next door to each other. And you argument is that if a subsection of a given identified region (for you it is eastern Turkey and northern Iraq, for me it is North Lamar Street in Austin) has an ethnic majority that wishes to be independent, then let it be. I'm just applying your principle across the board, that's all.

[Grace Seeker]

i dnt even want to imagine an independent kudistan...

they have killed too many of not only their own people but turks also...its hard to accept it.all they want is the turkish soil...without earnig it. i dnt want to imagine a indep. kurdistan where honour killings are as free as playing chess,where silly rituals overtake fundamentals....where hating turks is instilled into the children,....

its not jst freedom fighters...they kill their own people for screwed up reasons.

its disgusting.

And yet, to be fair, this is not the majority of Kurds. But it does seem to fairly describe those who want an independent Kurdistan.

Thirdwatch, don't you realize, that even among the Kurds (at least Turkish Kurds) the majority DO NOT want an independent Kurdistan. So, creating one would be the equivalent of forcing south Florida to become part of Cuba, which you said you are against because south Florida doesn't want to be Cuba. Well, most Turkish Kurds don't want an independent Kurdistan either. I would think those facts would change your position on this subject.

[thirdwatch512]

like you said grace seeker - the majority of TRUSKISH kurds. so if they don't want to become a nation, don't me them. but the iraqi kurds do, so let them.

and might i ask.. do you live in austin?

and when i talk about a majority, i'm not talking about a small area of two or three.. i'm talking about an area with thousands upon millions.

[Woodrow]

They call themselves Kurdish freedom fighters.


Not a street with a Muslim majority? I haven't actually done a religious census of Austin. Have you? Hint: if want to save some time, just start in the 9200 and 9300 blocks of North Lamar.

I usually attend the Masjid on North Lamar, It is true there are many Mid-Eastern and Eastern Businesses there. But, they are far from all being Muslim. There is a Buddhist Temple less then 2 blocks from the Masjid and there are a large number of Hindus living in that area. But the majority is not muslim. You will only see a large Muslim Presence there on Fridays when we go for our Friday prayers.

[Grace Seeker]

like you said grace seeker - the majority of TRUSKISH kurds. so if they don't want to become a nation, don't me them. but the iraqi kurds do, so let them.

and might i ask.. do you live in austin?

and when i talk about a majority, i'm not talking about a small area of two or three.. i'm talking about an area with thousands upon millions.

I know. But the difference between 2 or 3 individuals and 2 or 3 millions is just one of degree, not principle. And I happen to think it's a bad principle for reasons I've gone into more than once in this thread.

No, I don't live in Austin. Not even Texas. Woodrow is a much better person to ask than me about Muslims in Austin.


Woodrow, for the point of my argument, is there anywhere in the entire city of Austin a block on which 2 or 3 Muslims live next to each other?

[thirdwatch512]

oh ok. just wondering lol.

and in my opinion there is a huge difference between 2 or three million people.. it might be just one difference, but it's a huge one lol.

[Woodrow]

I know. But the difference between 2 or 3 individuals and 2 or 3 millions is just one of degree, not principle. And I happen to think it's a bad principle for reasons I've gone into more than once in this thread.

No, I don't live in Austin. Not even Texas. Woodrow is a much better person to ask than me about Muslims in Austin.


Woodrow, for the point of my argument, is there anywhere in the entire city of Austin a block on which 2 or 3 Muslims live next to each other?

Yes there are. However most of the Muslims are living in the Gated communiities. I live at the Marquis at Iron Rock. There are 4 Muslim families here.

[Grace Seeker]

oh ok. just wondering lol.

and in my opinion there is a huge difference between 2 or three million people.. it might be just one difference, but it's a huge one lol.

I would agree if we were simply talking about numbers. But we are talking about the "rightness" of an idea. And for that it matters not whether we are talking about what is right for a single individual or an entire planet.

In my understanding of "rightness", there is not an inherent or inate "right" to each ethnic group having their own country.

Now, in truth, I don't really care if Iraqi Kurds do form their own country, if the rest of Iraq doesn't mind either. But what the PKK is doing in Turkey to try to force the forming of an independent Kurdistan made up of eastern Turkey and northern Iraq is a criminal act given the way they are going about it. And no amount of posturing, or desire by Iraqi Kurds to influence either Turkish or international politics changes that from being so.

[Grace Seeker]

Yes there are. However most of the Muslims are living in the Gated communiities. I live at the Marquis at Iron Rock. There are 4 Muslim families here.

Is that enough to make you a Muslim majority at Iron Rock?

[Woodrow]

Is that enough to make you a Muslim majority at Iron Rock?

Since there are over 300 families living in the complex, I think that puts us in a minority LOL.

I actualy do not know of any Austin Area in which there is a Muslim majority. We seem to be very interspersed through out the city. If there are any dominate Muslim sections they will most likely be near UT

[AvarAllahNoor]

OOOOOOH can we have it pleeeeeeeease??? We'll name it KHALISTAN HOMELAND OF THE SIKHS!! WE need it!!:'( :cry:

[thirdwatch512]

Since there are over 300 families living in the complex, I think that puts us in a minority LOL.

I actualy do not know of any Austin Area in which there is a Muslim majority. We seem to be very interspersed through out the city. If there are any dominate Muslim sections they will most likely be near UT

i've never seen a muslim in downtown.. never. lol. although i have seen a few muslims at highland mall. lakeline has none, and barton creek especially has none lol. round rock outlet mall seems to have a few muslims here and there, so i'm assuming that there might be a few muslims in round rock. but all in all, i don't think austin or the metro has a lot of muslims. but the muslims that do live here in austin prolly live a happier life and are tolerated a lot more then muslims anywhere else.

[Woodrow]

i've never seen a muslim in downtown.. never. lol. although i have seen a few muslims at highland mall. lakeline has none, and barton creek especially has none lol. round rock outlet mall seems to have a few muslims here and there, so i'm assuming that there might be a few muslims in round rock. but all in all, i don't think austin or the metro has a lot of muslims. but the muslims that do live here in austin prolly live a happier life and are tolerated a lot more then muslims anywhere else.

There actually are quite a few of us. However, we are very dispersed and not congregated in any specific area. Based just on the number of Mosques (6 that I know of) there are at least 6000 people that attend Mosque on a regular basis. I would say there are at least 12 to 20 thousand of us. The 6 Mosques are not large enough to handle the entire Muslim population. It is hard to get good figure on how many there are of us. Very few Muslims ever register with a Mosque. They is a large Population in Round Rock as you said, but they are barely noticible. About the only time you will see us in large groups is during Friday prayers if you travel down Lamar at about 12:30 Friday afternoon you would feel like we had invaded the city LOL


Wrong about none of us at Barton Creek, I know of 2 families there.

[thirdwatch512]

There actually are quite a few of us. However, we are very dispersed and not congregated in any specific area. Based just on the number of Mosques (6 that I know of) there are at least 6000 people that attend Mosque on a regular basis. I would say there are at least 12 to 20 thousand of us. The 6 Mosques are not large enough to handle the entire Muslim population. It is hard to get good figure on how many there are of us. Very few Muslims ever register with a Mosque. They is a large Population in Round Rock as you said, but they are barely noticible. About the only time you will see us in large groups is during Friday prayers if you travel down Lamar at about 12:30 Friday afternoon you would feel like we had invaded the city LOL


Wrong about none of us at Barton Creek, I know of 2 families there.

wow, i didn't know there were 6 mosuqes. hah about as many mosques as synagogues.

i know a lot of muslims who work at convenience stores.. which is pretty crazy, as they sell alcohol and lottery. they might be hindu though lol.

[Woodrow]

wow, i didn't know there were 6 mosuqes. hah about as many mosques as synagogues.

i know a lot of muslims who work at convenience stores.. which is pretty crazy, as they sell alcohol and lottery. they might be hindu though lol.

Sadly, there are some Muslims working at convenience stores and selling not only alcohol and lottery tickets, but also chiccarones etc.
They do know they are doing wrong. How, they justify it I do not know.

In Austin the majority of the Muslims are employed in the various professions. There are more than a few Muslim professors at UT and a fairly large number of Doctors and Nurses. Some school teachers, some Day care owners, a few engineers and lawyers. More than a couple work at AMC. Then you have the Mid-eastern restaurants that are mostly Muslim here and the Halal grocery stores. Off hand I would say the largest employers of Muslms are the City of Austin, the Hospitals and UT.

[Grace Seeker]

Since there are over 300 families living in the complex, I think that puts us in a minority LOL.

I actualy do not know of any Austin Area in which there is a Muslim majority. We seem to be very interspersed through out the city. If there are any dominate Muslim sections they will most likely be near UT

That's too bad. If you would all move so as to live more closely together, enough to form a majority in the neighborhood, perhaps Thirdwatch will help you write a petition for an independent Muslim state so that you can have sharia law.

[thirdwatch512]

That's too bad. If you would all move so as to live more closely together, enough to form a majority in the neighborhood, perhaps Thirdwatch will help you write a petition for an independent Muslim state so that you can have sharia law.

yeah!!

now ur comment was sarcastic and very rude, but hey, if they all got together, it was muslims only, and they wanted to, in a small area (like a gated community lol) i wouldn't mind!

[thirdwatch512]

that actually would be a good idea though for the west. have "shariah settlements" where muslims could live under shariah in that specific area. but they could be near cities and all, so the muslims could work and all. and shariah would only be in that settlement, and not in the work force and all (unless the buisiness is in the settlement lol.) and if any muslim didn't want to live under shariah, and wanted to live the true american dream, they could move out of the settlement! lol that would be a cool idea though. they have jewish settlements like that in palestine (only the jews can't work out of the settlement.)

[Woodrow]

That's too bad. If you would all move so as to live more closely together, enough to form a majority in the neighborhood, perhaps Thirdwatch will help you write a petition for an independent Muslim state so that you can have sharia law.

Strangely, within the gated communities such as here at Iron Rock, it is possible for Muslim families to live a sharia style life with no interference. There are clothing restrictions as to minimum of clothing that may be publicaly worn, no public usage of alcohol, no loud music no unsolicited going from door to door for any purpose. No uncontroled activities for the kids. I can foresee a time when some of these gated communities will be predominatly Muslim. Especialy some of the newer ones that are being built. It will just be a matter of time before some investors see that a gated community geared towards Muslim life styles would be a very profitable investment.

[thirdwatch512]

Strangely, within the gated communities such as here at Iron Rock, it is possible for Muslim families to live a sharia style life with no interference. There are clothing restrictions as to minimum of clothing that may be publicaly worn, no public usage of alcohol, no loud music no unsolicited going from door to door for any purpose. No uncontroled activities for the kids. I can foresee a time when some of these gated communities will be predominatly Muslim. Especialy some of the newer ones that are being built. It will just be a matter of time before some investors see that a gated community geared towards Muslim life styles would be a very profitable investment.

lol you predict some wierd things.. some that i could never see happening. :shade:

[Woodrow]

lol you predict some wierd things.. some that i could never see happening. :shade:

I've seen stranger happen. I've seen individual homes in Oklahoma declare themself to be Native American Reservations and not under federal jurisdiction. The native Americans do have the right to establish reservations and live under tribal law. I do not know if any still do, but for a long time the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma was under tribal law and not US Federal and the same with the Caddo Reservation here in Livingston Texas. The precedent is there that an Islamic community can exist under Sharia law without violating Federal law. On a looser basis the Amish and the Mennonites do it.

[thirdwatch512]

I've seen stranger happen. I've seen individual homes in Oklahoma declare themself to be Native American Reservations and not under federal jurisdiction. The native Americans do have the right to establish reservations and live under tribal law. I do not know if any still do, but for a long time the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma was under tribal law and not US Federal and the same with the Caddo Reservation here in Livingston Texas. The precedent is there that an Islamic community can exist under Sharia law without violating Federal law. On a looser basis the Amish and the Mennonites do it.

hah i never thought of that, but true. i would't mind if there were "islamic reserves" lol as long as they didn't force me to live there (i am gay.)

[Grace Seeker]

hah i never thought of that, but true. i would't mind if there were "islamic reserves" lol as long as they didn't force me to live there (i am gay.)

You know I think the idea of gated communities with the regulations being designed for certain religious beliefs is probably right around the corner. Of course I also predict the ACLU moves to stop it, especially if the first ones are fundamentaist Christian communities.

But, what if one already lived in a gated community which over time became predominately, in our present senario, Islamic. Thirdwatch, if you lived in that "islamic reserve" don't you think that you would have been forced against your will, even if there was a clear majority that sought it? This is one of the reasons that I am against the idea of letting ethinc minority groups elect to form new and independent countries wherever they find themselves in the majority. Because there will still be minorities within their midst and the codifying of laws for the benefit of the majority accomplishes no more justice than existed before, it just changes to whom the injustice might be applied. And further, iin narrowing defined societies that are intentionally set up around ethnic homogeney, societal pressures to preserve rights for any minorities present are much more likely to disappear than they would in societies with larger and more divergent cultural variance amongst its population.

[thirdwatch512]

You know I think the idea of gated communities with the regulations being designed for certain religious beliefs is probably right around the corner. Of course I also predict the ACLU moves to stop it, especially if the first ones are fundamentaist Christian communities.

But, what if one already lived in a gated community which over time became predominately, in our present senario, Islamic. Thirdwatch, if you lived in that "islamic reserve" don't you think that you would have been forced against your will, even if there was a clear majority that sought it? This is one of the reasons that I am against the idea of letting ethinc minority groups elect to form new and independent countries wherever they find themselves in the majority. Because there will still be minorities within their midst and the codifying of laws for the benefit of the majority accomplishes no more justice than existed before, it just changes to whom the injustice might be applied. And further, iin narrowing defined societies that are intentionally set up around ethnic homogeney, societal pressures to preserve rights for any minorities present are much more likely to disappear than they would in societies with larger and more divergent cultural variance amongst its population.

that's why i think they should make little "islamic communites." instead of making a gated community shariah because it's 50% majority, make a whole new gated community, tell them if they want to live in shariah religious then they can move there, if not, then don't lol.

[Woodrow]

that's why i think they should make little "islamic communites." instead of making a gated community shariah because it's 50% majority, make a whole new gated community, tell them if they want to live in shariah religious then they can move there, if not, then don't lol.

If you stop and think of it, look at some of the types of communities that do exist and as long as they do not advocate a violent overthrow of the USA they are perfectly legal. we already do have numerous religious communes.

But, it probably would be best for us as Muslims to start one from scratch and develope it as a new community rather then try to establish majority rule in an existing community.

[Grace Seeker]

Great! So it seems like we are all agreed on the principle regarding the best way to develop a unique community in the USA. Now, can we figure out the best way to apply this same principle when certain ethnic minorities (who are not even always the majority view within their own ethnicity) seek to gain some special priviledge or redraw international boundaries to accomodate their special interests?

[Dawud_uk]

If you stop and think of it, look at some of the types of communities that do exist and as long as they do not advocate a violent overthrow of the USA they are perfectly legal. we already do have numerous religious communes.

But, it probably would be best for us as Muslims to start one from scratch and develope it as a new community rather then try to establish majority rule in an existing community.

make sure when you pick a state to take over it is far up north, with global warning the south of US gonna become pretty bad in about 50-100 years, dont make the same mistake as the mormons and pick a hot state like utah!

Abu Abdullah

[cihad]

after reading all of that i am so confused

i voted yes for an independant kurdistan..but i'm not so sure anymore
i don't have enough valid facts to make a truthful decision.

But if all the kurds are living in kind of the same region, wouldn't it be okay for them to cut themselves off and be a different country....i really don't know

[north_malaysian]

after reading all of that i am so confused

i voted yes for an independant kurdistan..but i'm not so sure anymore
i don't have enough valid facts to make a truthful decision.

But if all the kurds are living in kind of the same region, wouldn't it be okay for them to cut themselves off and be a different country....i really don't know

maybe they can get independence from Iraq and all Kurds from Turkey, Iran, Syria, Armenia could migrate to the Kurdistan... and those who remains in Kurdish areas in Turkey, Iran etc must be faithful to their respective countries...

[Grace Seeker]

maybe they can get independence from Iraq and all Kurds from Turkey, Iran, Syria, Armenia could migrate to the Kurdistan... and those who remains in Kurdish areas in Turkey, Iran etc must be faithful to their respective countries...

Maybe. That would seem a reasonable solution.

Do you think those members of the PKK that currently live rather autonomously in Iraqi-Kurdistan and are crossing the border to commit acts of terrorism in their pursuit of a larger independent Kurdistan consisting of territory from Turkey too, would be willing to change their position and settle for that? How do you get them to see the wisdom in that?

[Keltoi]

Another thing to think about it. There is a difference between a subculture and a counterculture. How long before this minority community comes into direct conflict with the dominant culture? We think in terms of the dominant culture persecuting the minority, which is usually the case, but sometimes when a minority group directly challenges the sovereignty of the majority group that will also lead to conflict. Perhaps I'm being too sociological.

[Grace Seeker]

Another thing to think about it. There is a difference between a subculture and a counterculture. How long before this minority community comes into direct conflict with the dominant culture? We think in terms of the dominant culture persecuting the minority, which is usually the case, but sometimes when a minority group directly challenges the sovereignty of the majority group that will also lead to conflict. Perhaps I'm being too sociological.

No, I don't believe so. That is indeed what the present problem is in Turkey. There are Kurds in the Turkish military (all Turkish citizens are required to have a term of military service) and the Kurdish "freedom fighters" fight them. Kurds and Turks, as a rule, get along in Turkey. But the PKK has become a major terrorist problem as they are not satisfied with the status quo and not achieving a change by other means, have now resorted to terror.

[Darkseid]

Maybe. That would seem a reasonable solution.

Do you think those members of the PKK that currently live rather autonomously in Iraqi-Kurdistan and are crossing the border to commit acts of terrorism in their pursuit of a larger independent Kurdistan consisting of territory from Turkey too, would be willing to change their position and settle for that? How do you get them to see the wisdom in that?

Well it isn't as bad as having Greece demanding control of Syria, Turkey, Cyprus, and all other lands that were once controlled by Greece.

I mean let's face it, if Kurdistan is made, and there are those here that will fight to destroy it (like Israel). Then what about other countries that lost their territory as well like Persia, Greece (as the Byzantine Empire), Italy (as the Roman Empire), Germany (under the Nazi Regime), Turkey (as the Ottoman Empire), Russia (as the Soviet Union), France (as the French Empire under Napoleon), Britain (as the British Empire), Spain (as the Spanish Empire), Denmark (as the Scandinavian Empire, which controlled most of Northern Europe), Saudi Arabia (under the Caliphate), Mongolia (under the Mongolian Empire established by the ruthless Gengis Khan), United States (when it had direct and open control over Germany, Japan, Mexico, Phillipines, and practically the entire pacific ocean), Mexico (when it had control over Texas, California, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Guatemala), Japan (when it had control over most of the Pacific and the Coastal areas around the Pacific), and Serbia (when it was once Yugoslavia).

Besides, why should an area highly dominated by Kurdish people be under the rule of a foreign entity. It is like having the Egyptians still under the rule of the British Government. Do you want that to happen again?

Or what if the United States hadn't acted into WWII against Germany? What do you think would have happened to the muslim communities? You'd wouldn't even exist, because your parents or grandparents would have been killed half of a century ago. But what I am saying is that you shouldn't so easily target against segregation and the formation of new countries. There is no logic in it, unless they supported slavery or some other practice that you could reasonably dispise. Like for instance, Zionism is the continual removal of non-Jews from the Canaan region and the growwing expansion of Israel territory. So it is reasonable to dislike Israel since it harbors Zionism. But Kurdistan doesn't seek to remove anyone or ban Islam. A great majority of Kurds are muslim, therefore why whould they spread such a practice?

I say let Kurdistan be and perhaps in the future we can see a more united Middle East, once people stop trying to attack one another or limit the freedom one group of people can express.

[imaad_udeen]

I've seen stranger happen. I've seen individual homes in Oklahoma declare themself to be Native American Reservations and not under federal jurisdiction. The native Americans do have the right to establish reservations and live under tribal law. I do not know if any still do, but for a long time the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma was under tribal law and not US Federal and the same with the Caddo Reservation here in Livingston Texas. The precedent is there that an Islamic community can exist under Sharia law without violating Federal law. On a looser basis the Amish and the Mennonites do it.

Federal law applies to Native Reservations.

[Woodrow]

Federal law applies to Native Reservations.

Yes, that is true but it is supposed to be the agreed upon laws in accordance with the treaty that the tribe has with the USA.

[Keltoi]

On the issue of Native reservations and tribal law. There are quite a few reservations that live under tribal laws and constitutions. The Lakota reservation in Pine Ridge is a good example. Federal law does apply for felony crimes, like murder. During the 1970's, the American Indian Movement was causing trouble with the tribal council and supporting Native rights nationwide. The federal government didn't get really involved, except for the CIA and FBI COINTELPRO programs. I think it was COINTELPRO...somthing like that. Anyway, 2 FBI agents were killed on the reservation, and the U.S. government had the right to enter the reservation and fight AIM.

[Darkseid]

On the issue of Native reservations and tribal law. There are quite a few reservations that live under tribal laws and constitutions. The Lakota reservation in Pine Ridge is a good example. Federal law does apply for felony crimes, like murder. During the 1970's, the American Indian Movement was causing trouble with the tribal council and supporting Native rights nationwide. The federal government didn't get really involved, except for the CIA and FBI COINTELPRO programs. I think it was COINTELPRO...somthing like that. Anyway, 2 FBI agents were killed on the reservation, and the U.S. government had the right to enter the reservation and fight AIM.

Native American tribal law is much more peaceful than most laws that are executed in other tribes worldwide.

And Native American reservations is not a party of federal law. It is a part of U.S. law.

If the United States was a unitary government, you would still have Native American reservations.

A federation is an act of allowing adequete representation to promote a unified state that won't act upon killing a group of people to gain more rights in their country.

Take Iraq right now. The Iraqi people (the violent militia organizations in Iraq) are attacking each other to gain more power and control over the government. I mean Iraq has a higher Shi'a population than Sunni. So the Sunni (militia organizations) attacks the Shi'a communities as an expected result of not having equal power over the country. They could have stormed into the president's palace and just took over the country in a military coup. Too bad most people belonging to a military organization in Iraq aren't that intelligent. Well, al Queda period isn't intelligent at all. They just promote terrorism rather than simply taking over a country by instituting constant military coups for regime change. Instead of promoting peace and thus gaining more support to later use in taking over the world, they promote senseless terror and thus hunted down like vermin.

Nevertheless, as a counter-attack Shi'a military organizations begin attacking to gain more power or to disrupt the power in the government, because they disagree with it on some level.

I think if we just tried to have a conference and negotiate terms, we could stop the civil war right there.

But the end result would establish a federal government to help establish equal power between the main divisions in Iraq. This isn't a bad thing.

Remember than Venezuela is a federal country and almost all Arabs love it, because they are open against Israel and the United States.

[Talha777]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu to those who follow the straight path

I voted that I am a Muslim and I support Kurdistan. However, I believe that the continued condition of Muslims being divided into ethnic groups and nation states is counterproductive to ou spiritual and political unity. Nationalism is a cancer which has afflicted this community, and khilafat is the means to root out this deadly disease. I sympathise with our Kurdish brothers who have suffered much persecution at the hands of Arab nationalists like Saddam Hussein, and I believe that Turkey's continued supression of the Kurds is completely unjustified and must be condemned. We are Muslims first, and if we cannot put aside our ethnic differences, than how can we complain to Allah that we are suffering at the hands of the disbelievers? We deserve to be suffering for our incompetence. We must pray to Allah to restore our unity and revive the khilafat, and we must collectively repent of our unholiness. May Allah Tala forgive us and renew His promise to us to exalt us above all others. Amin.

Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah
[Al-Imran 3:110]

[cypriot]

No Kurdistan.... NEVER!!!

[Akil]

I don’t understand why Muslims can become so divided between national issues. Regardless of their history how can Turkish Muslims hate Kurdish Muslims (and vice versa) so much?

I am sure there are hadith about a divided Ummah

[Grace Seeker]

I don’t understand why Muslims can become so divided between national issues. Regardless of their history how can Turkish Muslims hate Kurdish Muslims (and vice versa) so much?

I am sure there are hadith about a divided Ummah

Have you read this thread carefully? I don't think Turkish Muslims hate Kurdish Muslims. What Turks (Mulsim and non-Muslim) hate are Kurds (also whether Muslim or not) who commit acts of terror against the people of Turkey (whether ethnically Turkish or Kurdish).

[abdil han]

Have you read this thread carefully? I don't think Turkish Muslims hate Kurdish Muslims. What Turks (Mulsim and non-Muslim) hate are Kurds (also whether Muslim or not) who commit acts of terror against the people of Turkey (whether ethnically Turkish or Kurdish).

i do agree ....

we dont hate eachother,,,
we hate who fights against us as terrorists n kills innocent people...

[Darkseid]

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu to those who follow the straight path

I voted that I am a Muslim and I support Kurdistan. However, I believe that the continued condition of Muslims being divided into ethnic groups and nation states is counterproductive to ou spiritual and political unity.

You won't be able to gain a unity amongst muslims in that fashion until a century from now when they (the violent ones) become intelligent enough not to support terror organizations.

To unify a huge country, you need divisions in administration. You can use these administrations to your advantage in establishing a federal government. Just because you are a muslim, does not mean you can't call yourself an Egyptian or a Jordonian. That's nationalistic pride. But there is nothing wrong with it. Because you can still associate yourself as Middle-Eastern first before calling your self an Egyptian or a Jordonian or whatever.

It's not so bad for a state the size of Qatar to remain unitary. But if you are going to unite the middle east, then you need to establish a federal government.

It doesn't really divide people against each other. It just divides out the control of land to make things easier for the government to administer its responsibilities.

Nationalism is a cancer which has afflicted this community, and khilafat is the means to root out this deadly disease.

Nationalism isn't a cancer. Radical Nationalism is a cancer. Nationalism is the best mean of establishing a united world government. You just have to realize just how stupid most people in this world are and accept it as a burden of why we cannot establish a united world muslim/islamic/whatever government during anytime of this current century. You will have to wait more than a hundred years for this religious event to occur. Otherwise, you will be greatly disappointed.

Besides. Nationalism isn't as bad as tribalism, which divides countries into city-state communities. So we are making some progress. But you won't see any "real" progress until a century from now.

However, there is a global like community called the Arab league.

It sort of like European Union which is a confederation. It is an organization that co-ordinates economic affairs, including commercial relations, communications, cultural affairs, nationality, passports, visas, social affairs, health affairs, and forbids member states from resorting to force against each other.

I sympathise with our Kurdish brothers who have suffered much persecution at the hands of Arab nationalists like Saddam Hussein, and I believe that Turkey's continued supression of the Kurds is completely unjustified and must be condemned. We are Muslims first, and if we cannot put aside our ethnic differences, than how can we complain to Allah that we are suffering at the hands of the disbelievers?

Whining is not going to get Allah's attention. That has been going on for centuries and Allah has obviously shown no interest in it. You must do good deeds and live out your life. If you go to paradise after you die, then you can consult Allah and his angels.

You are humans (Allah's children) first, muslims (Muhammad's followers) second, Middle Easterners third, Arabs/Isreali/Turks/Iranians/Kurds fourth, and whatever last.

Don't start discriminating against other humans or you will be seen as a pest to Allah.

We deserve to be suffering for our incompetence. We must pray to Allah to restore our unity and revive the khilafat, and we must collectively repent of our unholiness. May Allah Tala forgive us and renew His promise to us to exalt us above all others. Amin.

Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah
[Al-Imran 3:110]

You deserve to suffer for a lot of things. Probably involve incompetence. I'm just a journey-spirit, so I'm just here for vocational purposes. LOL!

My appologies, but it is true and against my own wishes.

No Kurdistan.... NEVER!!!

Well, now we know why Allah allows you to suffer.

I don’t understand why Muslims can become so divided between national issues. Regardless of their history how can Turkish Muslims hate Kurdish Muslims (and vice versa) so much?

I am sure there are hadith about a divided Ummah

Turks don't want to give up their land, even though the majority of people that live on that land are Kurds and they just want the same thing the Turks have and that is a country of their own.

Have you read this thread carefully? I don't think Turkish Muslims hate Kurdish Muslims. What Turks (Mulsim and non-Muslim) hate are Kurds (also whether Muslim or not) who commit acts of terror against the people of Turkey (whether ethnically Turkish or Kurdish).

No one makes an act of terror for no reason at all. Those Kurds (which are of a slight minority) do those acts to gain a voice in their oppressive government. But those acts are put against them in the same manner that killing Bush and thus freeing the American people from their dictator would be seen as an act of cold-blooded murder throughout that entire country.

Sometimes doing the right thing can become the wrong thing, because the act it self rather than the purpose behind it is wrong.

i do agree ....

we dont hate eachother,,,
we hate who fights against us as terrorists n kills innocent people...

Well, the Americans and Europeans are much like that. They are trying to get rid of the terrorist in general. But end up attacking a large majority of people that aren't terrorist but affiliate with the terrorists by being from the same country.

[north_malaysian]

You are humans (Allah's children) first

God doesnt have children... we (Muslims) are His servants....

[north_malaysian]

No Kurdistan.... NEVER!!!

I have three questions for you.

1) Do you want an independent Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus?
2) Do you want Northern Cyprus to be part of Republic of Turkey?
3) Do you want to unite with Greek-control Cyprus and your country be known as Republic of Cyprus?

Just curious...:?