Mujahideen Literally Walk Over Mines To Save People - Bravery!

[Chechnya]

This article is about the withdrawal from Grozny in 2000 where the Mujahideen were exiting Grozny and helping to evacuate women and children.

The Russians had Grozny surrounded and mined and the Mujahideen ran into one of the minefields.

Rather than stay their trapped , volunteers ran foward and threw themselves on the mines whil shouting to their comrades , "See you in paradise!".

Amongst the volunteers were two of the top commanders , Lecha Dudayev ans Shamil Basayev who personally led the way.
Commander Dudayev was Shahaeed (inshallah) and Shamil Basayev lost a foot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last month the Chechen rebels attempted to break out of their
positions in Grozny as the Russian forces encircled the city.
The following description of the retreat, as reported by the
Washington Post's Daniel Williams, is a reminder of just how
brutal war can be.

"The order to withdraw from Grozny came from Isa Munayev,
the top rebel commander in the city. Two Mondays ago, in the
middle of the night, thousands of fighters began to head west and
south."

Heda Yusopova, a mother of two and a cook for a group of
Chechen rebels, was part of a group which went toward Alkhan-
Kala, three miles from the city. The column included units under
the command of Shamil Basayev, a notorious rebel commander
whom Russia considers a deadly terrorist.

"Yusopova's group of 150 shuffled warily in the middle of the
column of several hundred guerrillas." They were about to walk
into a mine field. "She heard artillery shells blasting the fields
that lay between the city and Alkhan-Kala. Then they came
upon the mines. 'It was scary,' she said. 'The first thing I did
was to try to calm the children.'"

Her children, ages 9 and 10, screamed. There was panic.
Volunteers were needed to move to the front of the column,
replacing those who had stepped directly into the killing field.

"A figure came out of the darkness. 'See you in paradise,' the
volunteer said. 'God is great.'"

"Yusopova wove her way among dead and wounded rebels
sprawled on the snowy plain. 'I had to bandage fighters as we
went. We couldn't wait for a safe place,' she said."

"With explosions lighting up the snow all around, commanders
urged everyone forward. Some commanders took the lead.
Basayev lost a foot to a mine. Lecha Dudayev, another
commander, was killed scouting for mines." The rebels insisted,
however, that most of the guerrilla columns escaped Grozny
without incident. And later counterattacks would seem to
confirm that.

When Yusopova's group reached Alkhan-Kala, they sought
refuge in basements and rested.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/6176

[sudais1]

allahuma iqwannal mujahideena fe chechan :amin:

[Skillganon]

May Allah(s,w,t) give them good health and victory over the kafirun and the mushrikoon, ameen.

[Chechen]

Shamil Basayev is the man I respect the most of present times. My father knew him personally. They were very good friends. Shamil and Khattab as well as many others used to come to our house often in Grozny after the first war. For about a month I refused to believe he was dead. And my father didn't eat or sleep for a few days. But luckily he calmed down after a while.

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[Skillganon]

Shamil Basayev is the man I respect the most of present times. My father knew him personally. They were very good friends. Shamil and Khattab as well as many others used to come to our house often in Grozny after the first war. For about a month I refused to believe he was dead. And my father didn't eat or sleep for a few days. But luckily he calmed down after a while.

Who's Imam Shamil in relation to chechnya?

[Chechen]

Who's Imam Shamil in relation to chechnya?

Imam Shamil was the leader of the Caucasian nations in the Russian - Caucasian war. He wasn't actually Chechen. He came from Dagestan a muslim country bordering with Chechnya. The men the most loyal to him were the Chechens.He couldn't unite people in Dagestan to fight against Russia so he knew that the Chechens were fighting them so he went to lead the war there. He helped all the caucasian nations unite to fight against the Russian invasion. But at the end during a batlle he surrendered himself. He invited the Chechens to surrender along with him but they refused. And there's a story that says that when he declared he was ready to surrender and started walking to give himself up to the Russian side of the battlefield a Chechen warrior took out his rifle, aimed at Imam Shamil and said : Turn around you dog so that I can kill you. Cause he wanted him rather dead than surrendered to the Russians. Imam Shamil heard his words but continued walking without turning around because he knew that Chechens had a rule that said that you were never allowed to shoot in a man's back. Imam Shamil was a hero in the whole of Caucasus and a very religious person but after spending 25 years fighting the Russians he finished by surrendering. No one understood why he did that and no one still knows.

[sister_fatimah]

:sl:


Ya Rabb amin ...:cry:

interesting story ! jazaka Allahu jairan

[Snowflake]

Ameen thuma ameen!

"The eyes shed tears and the heart is grieved, but we will not say anything except which pleases our Lord." Prophet Muhammed

[Chechnya]

Shamil Basayev is the man I respect the most of present times. My father knew him personally. They were very good friends. Shamil and Khattab as well as many others used to come to our house often in Grozny after the first war. For about a month I refused to believe he was dead. And my father didn't eat or sleep for a few days. But luckily he calmed down after a while.

Wow - your father knew Shamil Basayev??!!!???! Thats cool - i wanna meet your father! lol :D

Ever since i learnt about the Chechen war - i have always loved and respected him, even the american military respected him after the first war and wrote articles on him.

I know how you feel about when he was martyred - i found it hard to believe, it was probably the biggest and most depressing news since Chechnya declared independance. It was a big blow to the resistance but inshallah they will recover from it - it seems odd with him not around.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Ameen to all the dua's

[Chechen]

Lol you don't imagine what connections my father had and what an important role he had among the rebels. And as for the martyrdom of Shamil yeah it was terrible news when my parents told me about it I just stood there for about 10 minutes not saying a word, not making a single movement. It was so hard to believe I mean he was the person I least expected to die. It was also hard because we lost Sadulaev and then straight away Basayev. It feels as if the war changed after his death. It's not the same thing anymore. Even though the mujahideen are strong and continue fighting it's still not the same like before. Basayev was a genius and a great military expert. American military even said that he is the best military expert of these days.

[netprince]

Imam Shamil was the leader of the Caucasian nations in the Russian - Caucasian war. He wasn't actually Chechen. He came from Dagestan a muslim country bordering with Chechnya. The men the most loyal to him were the Chechens.He couldn't unite people in Dagestan to fight against Russia so he knew that the Chechens were fighting them so he went to lead the war there. He helped all the caucasian nations unite to fight against the Russian invasion. But at the end during a batlle he surrendered himself. He invited the Chechens to surrender along with him but they refused. And there's a story that says that when he declared he was ready to surrender and started walking to give himself up to the Russian side of the battlefield a Chechen warrior took out his rifle, aimed at Imam Shamil and said : Turn around you dog so that I can kill you. Cause he wanted him rather dead than surrendered to the Russians. Imam Shamil heard his words but continued walking without turning around because he knew that Chechens had a rule that said that you were never allowed to shoot in a man's back. Imam Shamil was a hero in the whole of Caucasus and a very religious person but after spending 25 years fighting the Russians he finished by surrendering. No one understood why he did that and no one still knows.

Imam Shamil was indeed an amazing man, i read a very lenghty article about his life a long time ago. May (SWT) grant him a place in Jannat ul Firdous.

I've never really written anything in one of these chechen threads before, as i am not fully clued up on their current situation. However, historically speaking, i know they have been fighting their oppressors for a very very long time. So i pray Allah(SWT) keeps them strong in their deen and grants them success in there endevours.

[Chechen]

Imam Shamil was indeed an amazing man, i read a very lenghty article about his life a long time ago. May (SWT) grant him a place in Jannat ul Firdous.

I've never really written anything in one of these chechen threads before, as i am not fully clued up on their current situation. However, historically speaking, i know they have been fighting their oppressors for a very very long time. So i pray Allah(SWT) keeps them strong in their deen and grants them success in there endevours.

Insha Allah. Freedom or death.

[Chechnya]

Lol you don't imagine what connections my father had and what an important role he had among the rebels. And as for the martyrdom of Shamil yeah it was terrible news when my parents told me about it I just stood there for about 10 minutes not saying a word, not making a single movement. It was so hard to believe I mean he was the person I least expected to die. It was also hard because we lost Sadulaev and then straight away Basayev. It feels as if the war changed after his death. It's not the same thing anymore. Even though the mujahideen are strong and continue fighting it's still not the same like before. Basayev was a genius and a great military expert. American military even said that he is the best military expert of these days.

May Allah (swt) reward your father for all his work. Ameen

Yeah I think the martyrdom of Abdul-Khalim Sadullayev was also a blow - when he first came, people said he had the potential to be the next imam shamil, i.e to unite all the north caucaus under him - even though i had never met him, i considered him my leader :D
A great man too alhumdullilah - May Allah (swt) grant him paradise.

But Shamil will be the one who is most missed, he was one of the old guard - i think his passing was the end of an era.

But inshallah the Mujahideen can recover from this blow - im happy Doku Umarov is around, he was also one of the old guards from the old days - i think he played an important role in steadying the resistance after the disaster of losing Shamil Basayev.

Now im just waiting for another Shamil Basayev to come along :D

[Chechen]

May Allah (swt) reward your father for all his work. Ameen

Yeah I think the martyrdom of Abdul-Khalim Sadullayev was also a blow - when he first came, people said he had the potential to be the next imam shamil, i.e to unite all the north caucaus under him - even though i had never met him, i considered him my leader :D
A great man too alhumdullilah - May Allah (swt) grant him paradise.

But Shamil will be the one who is most missed, he was one of the old guard - i think his passing was the end of an era.

But inshallah the Mujahideen can recover from this blow - im happy Doku Umarov is around, he was also one of the old guards from the old days - i think he played an important role in steadying the resistance after the disaster of losing Shamil Basayev.

Now im just waiting for another Shamil Basayev to come along :D

Yeah people who knew Sadulaev personally used to always say that under his rule Chechnya would be a very good and safe and clean place because he was very religious and knew the Qu'ran by heart and he was helping make Shariah in Chechnya. Of course Basayev will never be forgotten. He'll be a hero forever. He was there during the whole time and now that he's gone it's just weird. I feel terrible when I see some people saying bad about Basayev. Things like: Basayev wasn't a real muslim, he wasn't a hero, he was a coward or he was a baby killer. Things like that hurt me and make me mad at the same time. Because people don't know the truth they rather listen to what the Russian kuffir has to say rather than the truth of their Chechen brothers. My father and him were very good friends and I knew him personally aswell and I can say, and I can swear it, that there is no man braver than Shamil. There is no man as honest as Shamil. There is no man as kind as Shamil. I hate the image the media tries to give to him as a bloodthirsty savage. But oh well the true believers know who he really is.

[Chechnya]

Did you really know him? What was he like? i heard he was kind of quiet, and that he very rarely raised his voice.
I also heard his wife and two kids and some cousins were killed in the first war in Vedeno. That was before the buddenyvosk operation.

As to his bravery, his military skill, courage etc. i think thats common knowledge amongst those who follow the events in this war.

The kafir western media will always portray him in a bad away - i dont really care what they think, however i find it sad when some ignorant muslims say bad things about him - theyre just fools.

[Chechen]

Did you really know him? What was he like? i heard he was kind of quiet, and that he very rarely raised his voice.
I also heard his wife and two kids and some cousins were killed in the first war in Vedeno. That was before the buddenyvosk operation.

As to his bravery, his military skill, courage etc. i think thats common knowledge amongst those who follow the events in this war.

The kafir western media will always portray him in a bad away - i dont really care what they think, however i find it sad when some ignorant muslims say bad things about him - theyre just fools.

Yeah I knew him. It's true he was a quiet person. Not always talking endlessly. He only talked when he had something intelligent to say not something stupid and useless and only when he was spoken to. He was also very polite and if you just took the military clothes off of him you would never think he even participated in war. He was kind with everyone especially with children, he really liked them. Everyone who knew him and who didn't know him misses him. He never wished any bad to anyone and always had this sincere smile when he talked. Basayev and Khattab and many other rebels used to gather in our house to have dinner together. And when they used to sit at table and talk I would always listen to what they said. Because you would only hear brave and wise things from them. Especially Shamil. They used to talk a lot about the war and then wars in other muslim countries. They used to talk about Islam very often aswell. I just miss those people. We were all like a big family. But those days are over. Now the second war started. Most of them have died. But they have died as heroes to protect me and my relatives and my friends and I will always support them no matter what because for me there are no braver people than them.

[Fishman]

:sl:
Wasn't this the guy who planned the school massacre?
:w:

[Chechen]

:sl:
Wasn't this the guy who planned the school massacre?
:w:

Yeah it's him. It would have turned out fine if that pig Putin hadn't given the order to attack the building and kill everyone in it.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

subhanAllaah... at times like these its the story of owais qarni that keeps me strong...

[Fishman]

Yeah it's him. It would have turned out fine if that pig Putin hadn't given the order to attack the building and kill everyone in it.

:sl:
What do you mean by 'turned out fine'? Surely it's not fine to capture a school and starve everybody inside?
:w:

[Chechnya]

What do you mean by 'turned out fine'? Surely it's not fine to capture a school and starve everybody inside?

the aim in beslan wasnt to kill anyone - the aim was to stop the greater killing, some children dying was the worst thing that could have happened for them.
in the first war chechen fighters captured a hospital and demanded russia stop the genocide and start dialogue - the russians were literally forced to stop the slaughter and rape and to start talking.
this was also the aim in beslan but things went horribly wrong - many witnesses have also confirmed that the hostage-takers were trying to get them out when the russians stormed the building and werent firing on them.

in my opiniion beslan was a big mistake - i am happy the shamil basayev acknowldeged his mistake and offered to go on trial for his role in it. very few world leaders (bush, putin, olmert) will admit they did something wrong when they have killed a great more people than died in beslan.

however the whole situation is a complicated thing - please read this thread, it explains it in a bit more detail:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...id-happen.html

[SilentObserver]

the aim in beslan wasnt to kill anyone

Yeah, right. Immediately after having gathered all the hostages in the gym, the attackers set about killing about twenty of the adult male hostages, reportedly the strongest in the group. The attackers forced other hostages to throw their bodies out of the building and set some children to wash the blood off the floor.

[SilentObserver]

Hostage Kazbek Dzarasov reported that the terrorists would pick from amongst the prettiest adolescent girls and take them to another room with an excuse of having them fetch water, rape them, and return them a few hours later.

[SilentObserver]

The crying of the children irritated the terrorists, and on several occasions children and their mothers were threatened that if they didn't stop crying they'd be shot.

[Chechnya]

Hostage Kazbek Dzarasov reported that the terrorists would pick from amongst the prettiest adolescent girls and take them to another room with an excuse of having them fetch water, rape them, and return them a few hours later.

this was directly contradicted by many women hostages who said that there was no rape - in fact there wasnt even seperation of the hostages, all were kept in the same place.
Regina Kusraeva said when the russians stormed the place, it was the hostage-takers that were trying to find them a way out and that she was "absolutely not scared of the militants".

http://www.jamestown.org/news_details.php?news_id=121

ill post more stuff in a bit when i get time.

sensational lies seem to be your thing at the moment...

[SilentObserver]

sensational lies seem to be your thing at the moment...

LOL! This coming from you!

[Chechen]

:sl:
What do you mean by 'turned out fine'? Surely it's not fine to capture a school and starve everybody inside?
:w:

Basayev wanted to put Putin into a position where he would just be forced to go for negotiations. They took the school and the only thing they asked for was to stop the war in Chechnya. How can they be terrorists? Did they demand a million dollars and a plane to Columbia? No they just asked for the genocide and slaughter of a whole nation to stop. Basayev said he wanted it to go well for both sides. For the Chechens the war and the genocide would stop and for Putin he wouldn't have faced a shameful defeat he could have said that he was obliged to go and negotiate that way his people would respect him even more. He knew that Putin was a monster and didn't care for human life but he thought he would have some feelings for children but at the end he found out that no. Cause Putin ordered to storm the building and kill everyone inside it. Witnesses said that they saw Russian soldiers on top of another building firing from flame throwers ( which have been forbiden by the Geneva Convention) at the roof of the school which caused it to collapse and kill so many people. The Russians started firing at their own people and survivors of the attack said that Chechens were picking them up from the floor and helping them escape. Putin had gotten rid of his problem and at the end everyone thought it was the Chechens and started hating them. Basayev said in a statement that he thought Putin would have had pity for his own children and went forward for negotiations but after the attack he saw what a really ruthless and cold hearted man he was. And unlike the many terrorists on this planet( Putin, Bush, Olmert etc) he proposed to go on any international trial after the war even tough it wasn't fully his fault. Plus what I find shocking is that when 45 000 Chechen children die the world is like oh yeah too bad for them or just completely stays silent but when 300 Russian children are killed everyone starts screaming and jumping on us even the so called muslim brothers.

[SilentObserver]

it was the hostage-takers that were trying to find them a way out

That makes a lot of sense. The terrorists take them hostage so that they can then try to find a way to get them out?
There is no justification. They purposely took the lives of hundreds of small children hostage, and put them in danger. Only cowards would do this. There is no justification. These pigs will burn for what they have done to these children.

[SilentObserver]

Basayev wanted to put Putin into a position where he would just be forced to go for negotiations. They took the school and the only thing they asked for was to stop the war in Chechnya. How can they be terrorists? Did they demand a million dollars and a plane to Columbia? No they just asked for the genocide and slaughter of a whole nation to stop. Basayev said he wanted it to go well for both sides. For the Chechens the war and the genocide would stop and for Putin he wouldn't have faced a shameful defeat he could have said that he was obliged to go and negotiate that way his people would respect him even more. He knew that Putin was a monster and didn't care for human life but he thought he would have some feelings for children but at the end he found out that no. Cause Putin ordered to storm the building and kill everyone inside it. Witnesses said that they saw Russian soldiers on top of another building firing from flame throwers ( which have been forbiden by the Geneva Convention) at the roof of the school which caused it to collapse and kill so many people. The Russians started firing at their own people and survivors of the attack said that Chechens were picking them up from the floor and helping them escape. Putin had gotten rid of his problem and at the end everyone thought it was the Chechens and started hating them. Basayev said in a statement that he thought Putin would have had pity for his own children and went forward for negotiations but after the attack he saw what a really ruthless and cold hearted man he was. And unlike the many terrorists on this planet( Putin, Bush, Olmert etc) he proposed to go on any international trial after the war even tough it wasn't fully his fault. Plus what I find shocking is that when 45 000 Chechen children die the world is like oh yeah too bad for them or just completely stays silent but when 300 Russian children are killed everyone starts screaming and jumping on us even the so called muslim brothers.

What a load of crap. Please, what insane lies. Oh, yes. The heroic terrorists were trying to help the children.
There is no justification for using the lives of children to gain what you want. Never.

[Chechen]

That makes a lot of sense. The terrorists take them hostage so that they can then try to find a way to get them out?
There is no justification. They purposely took the lives of hundreds of small children hostage, and put them in danger. Only cowards would do this. There is no justification. These pigs will burn for what they have done to these children.

They took them hostage to scare Putin and force him to negotitate they had no intention of hurting anyone. Do you think they would just come up to Putin and ask him to stop the war in their country? No they had to scare him so they had to do something extreme. They were almost 100% sure that Putin would do anyhting to get his people out of there and accept to their terms. But no instead Putin ordered for the building to be stormed.

[SilentObserver]

They took them hostage to scare Putin and force him to negotitate they had no intention of hurting anyone. Do you think they would just come up to Putin and ask him to stop the war in their country? No they had to scare him so they had to do something extreme. They were almost 100% sure that Putin would do anyhting to get his people out of there and accept to their terms. But no instead Putin ordered for the building to be stormed.

There is no justification. This was one of the most pathetic, cowardly acts of the last 100 years of human treachery.

[Chechen]

What a load of crap. Please, what insane lies. Oh, yes. The heroic terrorists were trying to help the children.
There is no justification for using the lives of children to gain what you want. Never.

Instead of repeating that no matter what I say are "insane lies" why don't you prove me wrong. Prove that what I just said is a load of crap.

[SilentObserver]

Instead of repeating that no matter what I say are "insane lies" why don't you prove me wrong. Prove that what I just said is a load of crap.

OK.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/040913/story.html
Hostage says it was one of the terrorist bombs going off(not purposely) that started the final showdown. Not the Russian forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_...hostage_crisis - terrorized the children,immediatly killed men, threatened to kill children, raped girls, etc.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...n_s/html/1.stm - held more than a thousand hostage, and refused them food or water. Children forced to resort to drinking urine.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...385297,00.html - terrorists brutalizing children during seige.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in668127.shtml - among other things father shot in front of young sons.

[Chechnya]

That makes a lot of sense. The terrorists take them hostage so that they can then try to find a way to get them out?
There is no justification. They purposely took the lives of hundreds of small children hostage, and put them in danger. Only cowards would do this. There is no justification. These pigs will burn for what they have done to these children.

It actualy does make sense. If the children were dead there would have been no negotitian as to the murder of chechen women and children - without the hostages they couldnt stop the genocide of their people as they have done before.
Once it was clear it was over, they helped people find a way out as said by the HOSTAGES THEMSELVES.

But obviously you know more than these hostages, right? :rollseyes

[SilentObserver]

But obviously you know more than these hostages, right? :rollseyes

The hostages never said that. Because you say it makes it true?

LOL! The Jamestown Foundation is your source?! The Jamestown Foundation is a notorious conspiracy theory group, dedicated to opposing the US, they dislike the former Soviet Union, and any other world power.

No, I don't know more than the hostages. But clearly you know even less.


Try these hostage accounts, they differ from the lies that come from the JT Foundation;
http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/040913/story.html
Hostage says it was one of the terrorist bombs going off(not purposely) that started the final showdown. Not the Russian forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_...hostage_crisis - terrorized the children,immediatly killed men, threatened to kill children, raped girls, etc.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...n_s/html/1.stm - held more than a thousand hostage, and refused them food or water. Children forced to resort to drinking urine.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...385297,00.html - terrorists brutalizing children during seige.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in668127.shtml - among other things father shot in front of young sons.

[Chechnya]

There are many sources from interviews and documentaries including from Russian news sources:

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2005/06/15/kulaev/

Zinaida Varziyeva, Regina Kusayeva, Larissa Kudzeiva are just some of the hostages whose testimony you can check out - so yes they did say out.

Prefer their testimony to wikipedia which can be altered by anyone. lol :rollseyes

[SilentObserver]

There are many sources from interviews and documentaries including from Russian news sources:

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2005/06/15/kulaev/

Zinaida Varziyeva, Regina Kusayeva, Larissa Kudzeiva are just some of the hostages whose testimony you can check out - so yes they did say out.

Prefer their testimony to wikipedia which can be altered by anyone. lol :rollseyes

Are you really going to try to have us believe that the hostages would side with the terrorists? That the hostages would defend the terrorists? Get off the drugs.
The terrorist pigs immediatly killed the fathers of these children. They terrorized the kids. They beat them. They raped a few of the prettier girls. They refused food and water, forcing the children to resort to drinking urine. The children were in terror for three days, saw unimaginable horror. They are scarred for life. More than 300 were killed. And you want us to believe that they are thankful to the terrorist pigs?!

These pigs at Beslan cannot be defended. They will burn for what they did to those children. It is immoral, and disgusting to think that anyone would defend the murder and terrorizing of children, for any cause. It is a sick mind that would defend killing children.

[Chechnya]

Are you really going to try to have us believe that the hostages would side with the terrorists? That the hostages would defend the terrorists? Get off the drugs.

:D :D

Are you getting frustrated that ACTUAL HOSTAGES dare contradict what you have made up? loool :D

Yes they confirm girls werent seperated from the hostages so there cant have been rape - and no the testimony of the hostages shows that they werent defending the hostages-takers.
Throughout they refered to them as terrorists and showed no sympathy for them or their cause.

I know sometimes the truth hurts but live with it my friend

Au revoir :rollseyes

[SilentObserver]

:D :D

Are you getting frustrated that ACTUAL HOSTAGES dare contradict what you have made up? loool :D

Yes they confirm girls werent seperated from the hostages so there cant have been rape - and no the testimony of the hostages shows that they werent defending the hostages-takers.
Throughout they refered to them as terrorists and showed no sympathy for them or their cause.

I know sometimes the truth hurts but live with it my friend

Au revoir :rollseyes

No, I'm frustrated that you would post such arrogant lies.

Why do you defend the action of these pigs?

Why do you defend the terrorizing, beating, raping and killing of children?

[Chechnya]

No, I'm frustrated that you would post such arrogant lies.

Why do you defend the action of these pigs?

Why do you defend the terrorizing, beating, raping and killing of children

:rollseyes

Your attention span seems to be short but ill repeat myself for you this time

I dont defend Beslan, i was and still am sad for the loss of the children - i wished the whole episode had never happened.

Im also slightly frustrated that you would post such arrogant lies - hostages themselves said there was no rape or seperation of girls, they said there was no beating either and most of all - if you read the testimony of some of the hostages i mentioned earlier - they confirm that children were shot from the russian side and that many hostage-takers were trying to get them out.

The despicable attempt to fabricate gang-rapes and what not is rather sickening - its almost as if you WANTED this to have happened so you could repeat it - but unfortuntely for you many hostages have given their accounts.

Having said that alot of the blame still lies on Shamil Basayev for initiating the whole scenario and i was glad to see him accept responsibility and offer to go on trial or hand himself over to russia immediately on condition that it ends the war.

[SilentObserver]

I dont defend Beslan, i was and still am sad for the loss of the children - i wished the whole episode had never happened.

Let me ask you this. Do you think, under any circumstances, that it is acceptable to take children as hostages to help one's cause?

[Chechnya]

Let me ask you this. Do you think, under any circumstances, that it is acceptable to take children as hostages to help one's cause?

I thought i made that clear. No, i dont.

A question in return:

Do you think it is acceptable under any circumstances for children to be harmed in war, whether its from aerial bombarment of cities like Kabul or Baghdad or hostage-taking like in Beslan?

[SilentObserver]

I thought i made that clear. No, i dont.

A question in return:

Do you think it is acceptable under any circumstances for children to be harmed in war, whether its from aerial bombarment of cities like Kabul or Baghdad or hostage-taking like in Beslan?

Absolutely not. Under any circumstances.

[Chechnya]

Absolutely not. Under any circumstances.

So your against the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine where these things have happened or are happening?

We have more in common than i would have thought :thumbs_up

[SilentObserver]

So your against the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine where these things have happened or are happening?

We have more in common than i would have thought :thumbs_up

I'm against violence. Although I recognize that violent people must be dealt with accordingly. But even if a bloody war must be fought, every precaution must be taken to avoid killing civilians. Especially children.
And certainly not purposely targeting civilians, or taking them hostage to gamble with their lives.

[Chechen]

OK.

http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/040913/story.html
Hostage says it was one of the terrorist bombs going off(not purposely) that started the final showdown. Not the Russian forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_...hostage_crisis - terrorized the children,immediatly killed men, threatened to kill children, raped girls, etc.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...n_s/html/1.stm - held more than a thousand hostage, and refused them food or water. Children forced to resort to drinking urine.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...385297,00.html - terrorists brutalizing children during seige.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in668127.shtml - among other things father shot in front of young sons.

My mother knows a woman who she went to school with when she was younger and basically this woman's daughter died in Beslan and her version of the story didn't contain ANY of that. On the contrary she said it was Putin's fault for the children's deaths. Also my dad was very good friends with Shamil Basayev and I knew him aswell and he would never order his men to slaughter children or have them go through hunger and thirst like that.

[SATalha]

Shamil Basayev is the man I respect the most of present times. My father knew him personally. They were very good friends. Shamil and Khattab as well as many others used to come to our house often in Grozny after the first war. For about a month I refused to believe he was dead. And my father didn't eat or sleep for a few days. But luckily he calmed down after a while.

Did you meet Imam Shamil and Khatab? I heard many stories about Khathab's military prowress.

[Chechen]

Did you meet Imam Shamil and Khatab? I heard many stories about Khathab's military prowress.

Yes I had met them, I was pretty small at the time but I can remember them all having dinner together. I can't remember talking to Khattab but I remember talking to Shamil and I would always feel happy and safe when he was there.

[SilentObserver]

My mother knows a woman who she went to school with when she was younger and basically this woman's daughter died in Beslan and her version of the story didn't contain ANY of that. On the contrary she said it was Putin's fault for the children's deaths. Also my dad was very good friends with Shamil Basayev and I knew him aswell and he would never order his men to slaughter children or have them go through hunger and thirst like that.

If you get a chance, try to find the documentary "Children of Beslan". Don't rely on your mother who knows a woman, or your dad who knows a terrorist. Hear it first hand from the children that lived it. Interview after heartwrenching interview. Don't go by what I tell you. Go by what the children tell you.
The irony for the terrorists at Beslan is that they did not help their cause. They made it worse. They have planted the seeds of revenge in a new generation.
In the film, a little boy named Alex points out the classroom where his father was thrown out a window to his death. "My greatest desire is to go to Chechnya and kill all those terrorists. To avenge my dad."

I said it before, there is no defending those pig terrorists. Shamil Basayev does not deserve to share a pen with pigs.
All this trash talk about how they were so good. The first thing they did was kill kids fathers right in front of them. Pigs.

Watch the film. See what your heroes have done.

[SilentObserver]

Shamil Basayev is the man I respect the most of present times. My father knew him personally. They were very good friends. Shamil and Khattab as well as many others used to come to our house often in Grozny after the first war. For about a month I refused to believe he was dead. And my father didn't eat or sleep for a few days. But luckily he calmed down after a while.

You respect a pig. A pig not worthy of contempt. That piece of garbage is dead, and the only thing bad about that is he didn't die in a proper execution with a rope.
What kind of hero chooses to terrorize a school full of children to make a point? He is scum from behind the toilet at a trucker's reststop.

[Chechen]

If you get a chance, try to find the documentary "Children of Beslan". Don't rely on your mother who knows a woman, or your dad who knows a terrorist. Hear it first hand from the children that lived it. Interview after heartwrenching interview. Don't go by what I tell you. Go by what the children tell you.
The irony for the terrorists at Beslan is that they did not help their cause. They made it worse. They have planted the seeds of revenge in a new generation.
In the film, a little boy named Alex points out the classroom where his father was thrown out a window to his death. "My greatest desire is to go to Chechnya and kill all those terrorists. To avenge my dad."

I said it before, there is no defending those pig terrorists. Shamil Basayev does not deserve to share a pen with pigs.
All this trash talk about how they were so good. The first thing they did was kill kids fathers right in front of them. Pigs.

Watch the film. See what your heroes have done.

Yeah except for my mother doesn't just know any woman she knows a woman who was there when all of this happened. And no sorry but my father doesn't know any terrorists. And that thing about the little boy who has a dream about killing all the Chechen "terrorists", well that's basically every Russian boy's dream. And he shouldn't worry about that, cause once he's 18 he'll be sent there anyway whether he wants to or not.

[Chechen]

You respect a pig. A pig not worthy of contempt. That piece of garbage is dead, and the only thing bad about that is he didn't die in a proper execution with a rope.
What kind of hero chooses to terrorize a school full of children to make a point? He is scum from behind the toilet at a trucker's reststop.

I'm sorry but I don't think you're the one who's gonna convince me cause you've never been to Chechnya or seen Shamil Basayev in real life whereas I come from Chechnya, have lived in Chechnya, and my father was very good friends with him so, I JUST THINK I might know him better than you. But who knows maybe you know him better than me. Apparently that's what you're trying to tell me, if I understood well.

[Keltoi]

I'm sorry but I don't think you're the one who's gonna convince me cause you've never been to Chechnya or seen Shamil Basayev in real life whereas I come from Chechnya, have lived in Chechnya, and my father was very good friends with him so, I JUST THINK I might know him better than you. But who knows maybe you know him better than me. Apparently that's what you're trying to tell me, if I understood well.

Actions speak louder than words, and what happened in Belsan speaks louder than "my father was very good friends with him." Doesn't matter how well "you know him", those poor children at the Beslan school know the kind of man he is very well now.

[Chechen]

Actions speak louder than words, and what happened in Belsan speaks louder than "my father was very good friends with him." Doesn't matter how well "you know him", those poor children at the Beslan school know the kind of man he is very well now.

Well I don't know what the hell the children think about him but the Beslan mothers aren't blaming Basayev for the deaths of their children, they accuse Putin for not wanting to stop all of this just by stopping the war not only that he gave the order to kill those children and everyone in there. That woman I talked about earlier she is part of the "Mothers of Beslan" organization and she herself lost her daughter in the attack. My mother talked to her after the attack and that woman said that her and the rest of the women in that organization don't blame the Chechens but Putin. She also said that the Russian news keeps changing their words and haves people believe that they blame Basayev. So basically I don't know what the children think but the mothers say that the one who should be blamed and punished is Putin.

[SATalha]

Ok what happened in Beslan is inexcusable and most of the elders in Chechnya disagreeded with it. If you ask the brothers here they will condem it as well. However why is it that Shamil is made to look like a monster and Putin is not:raging: This makes me angry and shows the double standards some people have. At least Shamil offered to go to trial. Will we ever see that dog Putin admitting to mistakes and saying "put me on trial". No i dont think so.

So next time you want to talk about Shamil and call him a terrorist think twice, there are others who personify the word terrorist. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!!!

[Keltoi]

Ok what happened in Beslan is inexcusable and most of the elders in Chechnya disagreeded with it. If you ask the brothers here they will condem it as well. However why is it that Shamil is made to look like a monster and Putin is not:raging: This makes me angry and shows the double standards some people have. At least Shamil offered to go to trial. Will we ever see that dog Putin admitting to mistakes and saying "put me on trial". No i dont think so.

So next time you want to talk about Shamil and call him a terrorist think twice, there are others who personify the word terrorist. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!!!

When you are responsible for the murder of over 200 children it doesn't matter what you think he is. If a person is responsible for over 200 deaths and supposedly offers to stand trial, does that somehow make him a better person? Glorify this man as you will, God will be the judge. Perhaps we can agree on that at the very least.

[Chechen]

When you are responsible for the murder of over 200 children it doesn't matter what you think he is. If a person is responsible for over 200 deaths and supposedly offers to stand trial, does that somehow make him a better person? Glorify this man as you will, God will be the judge. Perhaps we can agree on that at the very least.

Well what SATalha is trying to say is that yes Shamil somehow in a way is a bit responsible but at least he offered to go on ANY international trial unlike Putin who is responsible for the death of 50 000 children not only doesn't offer that sort of stuff he also says that those children never died and he never did anything.

[SilentObserver]

I'm sorry but I don't think you're the one who's gonna convince me cause you've never been to Chechnya or seen Shamil Basayev in real life whereas I come from Chechnya, have lived in Chechnya, and my father was very good friends with him so, I JUST THINK I might know him better than you. But who knows maybe you know him better than me. Apparently that's what you're trying to tell me, if I understood well.

Seeing and knowing that piece of crap is nothing to be proud of. You should conceal that information and never tell another living soul. I have no desire to know or see a person like that. I would spit in his face.

You have got to have something seriously going wrong upstairs to think that the families of those children don't hate Basayev(the pig) with every ounce of their being. You have been listening to too many lies from your parents.

The man(pig) organised the terrorizing of young children. Do you really think the families are going to forget that? Not a chance in hell. That is an insult to the intelligence of those people, and to the intelligence of the people on this forum that you are trying to convince of this preposterous lie. Unless of course you actually believe it yourself:rollseyes .

[Isaac]

Chechen, dont pay attention to these second hand observers. I would rather take not from someone who has first hand experiance rather than someone who relies on dumb founded news reports. What i dont understand about Beslan, is that the Russian Military had its surrounded, yet a number of them escaped. How bizzare!!

Yes and these are people who have never been to chechnya, yet they can some how tell you who was in the wrong. Putin orderd a strike on the school, as well as the theater, seige. If you ask me a very bad military decsion to make, especially when you have young children at risk.

[Akil]

My first introduction to Islam in any way other than mindless terrorism was a book by an American Mujahadeen in Chechnya called “my jihad”.

It makes me sad that the US can intervene in every crisis in the planet but wont stand against Russia because they have nukes. I get sick when I see Putin shake my Presidents hand as he calls the Russians, Americans partner in the war on terrorism.

[Chechen]

Seeing and knowing that piece of crap is nothing to be proud of. You should conceal that information and never tell another living soul. I have no desire to know or see a person like that. I would spit in his face.

You have got to have something seriously going wrong upstairs to think that the families of those children don't hate Basayev(the pig) with every ounce of their being. You have been listening to too many lies from your parents.

The man(pig) organised the terrorizing of young children. Do you really think the families are going to forget that? Not a chance in hell. That is an insult to the intelligence of those people, and to the intelligence of the people on this forum that you are trying to convince of this preposterous lie. Unless of course you actually believe it yourself:rollseyes .

I am proud of him and proud of what he has done for his country. He died to protect my family and many others families even though he had his own wife and children. I will always support him even if I have to die for it because he has died so that I can live. And I couldn't care less what some random person thinks about him. He is a hero for every Chechen and nobody, especially you, is gonna change that. And all this time you're just trying to provoke me. First you keep telling me how he's a pig, how he's gonna burn in hell and on and on and now you're trying to call my parents liars. My parents have never lied to me. They don't lie to me, and they never will lie to me. I'm definetely not going to trust some person on the internet rather than my parents. And yeah it's easy to be brave on the internet if you ever were standing before Shamil you'd commit suicide before he could even touch you. Before the Beslan attack people in Russia didn't care about what was happening in Chechnya they didn't care about what their people were doing there. But once Beslan happened people woke up and realised what it is like to lose a child. They experienced the pain so now they're at least trying to do something to stop the war. People keep writing Putin letters, people are joining associations who are trying to do everything to stop the war and now there are more and more manifestations. So at least people woke up now.

[SATalha]

When you are responsible for the murder of over 200 children it doesn't matter what you think he is. If a person is responsible for over 200 deaths and supposedly offers to stand trial, does that somehow make him a better person? Glorify this man as you will, God will be the judge. Perhaps we can agree on that at the very least.

Yes lets leave the all mighty to judge. I can say one thing for sure there will be others like Putin who will feel it more than anyone else.

As for spitting on Shamil's face oh yeah, what if I was to to put Putin in front of you, what would you do? I know what i would do.:raging:

[Keltoi]

Yes lets leave the all mighty to judge. I can say one thing for sure there will be others like Putin who will feel it more than anyone else.

As for spitting on Shamil's face oh yeah, what if I was to to put Putin in front of you, what would you do? I know what i would do.:raging:

I didn't say anything about spitting in anyone's face...

[SATalha]

Sorry bro i know you didnt Silent did. Sorry for that.

[SilentObserver]

I am proud of him and proud of what he has done for his country. He died to protect my family and many others families even though he had his own wife and children. I will always support him even if I have to die for it because he has died so that I can live. And I couldn't care less what some random person thinks about him. He is a hero for every Chechen and nobody, especially you, is gonna change that. And all this time you're just trying to provoke me. First you keep telling me how he's a pig, how he's gonna burn in hell and on and on and now you're trying to call my parents liars. My parents have never lied to me. They don't lie to me, and they never will lie to me. I'm definetely not going to trust some person on the internet rather than my parents. And yeah it's easy to be brave on the internet if you ever were standing before Shamil you'd commit suicide before he could even touch you. Before the Beslan attack people in Russia didn't care about what was happening in Chechnya they didn't care about what their people were doing there. But once Beslan happened people woke up and realised what it is like to lose a child. They experienced the pain so now they're at least trying to do something to stop the war. People keep writing Putin letters, people are joining associations who are trying to do everything to stop the war and now there are more and more manifestations. So at least people woke up now.

I am proud of him and proud of what he has done for his country.

Proud of a murderer of children. That's sick, just sick.

He is a hero for every Chechen

Not true. There are chechens that he angered because of his attacks on civilians. They felt he was doing more harm that way. People that opposed attacking civilians, especially children.

First you keep telling me how he's a pig, how he's gonna burn in hell

Can't see any way around the hell thing, I don't think God likes it when people murder children.

call my parents liars.

Call it like it is. Unless they have been lied to, if they are telling you that he never harmed civilians or that the families of the victims don't hate him, then yes, they are lying.

And yeah it's easy to be brave on the internet if you ever were standing before Shamil you'd commit suicide before he could even touch you.

LOL! I've been known to get by. My statement stands. I would spit in his face.

Before the Beslan attack people in Russia didn't care about what was happening in Chechnya they didn't care about what their people were doing there. But once Beslan happened people woke up

No excuse. No justification. Purposely attacking civilians, especially children, is inexcusable. A coward attacks civilians. If he were a real hero, all his targets would have been military targets, or government targets without harming civilians.
If it were not for the attacks on civilians, I would be saying "all the power to him. He was fighting for what he believed". But the attacks on civilians change all that.

[Chechen]

Nope. He's not guilty even if he was I wouldn't care. I'm not gonna lie I'm always honest. Even if Shamil killed them I couldn't care less. Nobody wants to help us or try to stop the war and our people die everyday. They give us no choice we are desperate and have to end this as soon as possible and if killing their children is the only way then sure let's do it. Their children are better than our children in no way. You have to treat your enemies like they treat you. Not more but not less. Those children's parents pay taxes for Putin to murder more Chechens so they'll have to pay the price. If killing them like they kill us is the only way then let's do it. Now you can go ahead and call me a murderer and a terrorist and an islamist and an extremist and whatever I don't care I have had enough of this war and so has every Chechen on this planet. This war has spoiled my childhood. We're not gonna let it spoil our future.

[Chechnya]

mmm quite a few things posted in this thread since i last replied

Bro Chechen, silentobserver is a kafir and hence the difference to him between a muslim and non-muslim kid is apparent

proof of this is the deafening silence of the world when it was tens of thousands of chechen kids dying - it was almost always ignored and Putin was and still is an ally

then beslan happened and all the kafirs come out moaning like dogs that children should never be targetted etc. conveniently forgetting that many times (esp after 2001) they (their democractically elected goverments) gave putin blessings to carry on the slaughter of chechens

apart from that little hypocrisy, we can also see that virtually the same countries vote into power the people who have killed many afghan, iraqi and palestinian children

[Chechnya]

spit in shamil basayevs face loool - funniest things ive heard in ages lol :D :D

got some brave internet warriors on here loool :laugh:

[Chechen]

mmm quite a few things posted in this thread since i last replied

Bro Chechen, silentobserver is a kafir and hence the difference to him between a muslim and non-muslim kid is apparent

proof of this is the deafening silence of the world when it was tens of thousands of chechen kids dying - it was almost always ignored and Putin was and still is an ally

then beslan happened and all the kafirs come out moaning like dogs that children should never be targetted etc. conveniently forgetting that many times (esp after 2001) they (their democractically elected goverments) gave putin blessings to carry on the slaughter of chechens

apart from that little hypocrisy, we can also see that virtually the same countries vote into power the people who have killed many afghan, iraqi and palestinian children

Yeah I know he's just trying to provoke me cause he knows that I support Shamil to a point that I will give my life for him. Notice how he keeps calling him a pig in every post. I know he's doing it just to piss me off but I don't care we don't need support from kafirs. If it were a brother or a sister saying that I would be upset.

[Chechen]

spit in shamil basayevs face loool - funniest things ive heard in ages lol :D :D

got some brave internet warriors on here loool :laugh:

Lol yeah internet crusaders.

[Keltoi]

Lol yeah internet crusaders.

Plenty of internet Jihadists too it seems...

[SilentObserver]

Even if Shamil killed them I couldn't care less.

You couldn't care less if he murdered those children. Wow.

Any person that is OK with children being murdered is a piece of trash.

[SilentObserver]

mmm quite a few things posted in this thread since i last replied

Bro Chechen, silentobserver is a kafir and hence the difference to him between a muslim and non-muslim kid is apparent

proof of this is the deafening silence of the world when it was tens of thousands of chechen kids dying - it was almost always ignored and Putin was and still is an ally

then beslan happened and all the kafirs come out moaning like dogs that children should never be targetted etc. conveniently forgetting that many times (esp after 2001) they (their democractically elected goverments) gave putin blessings to carry on the slaughter of chechens

apart from that little hypocrisy, we can also see that virtually the same countries vote into power the people who have killed many afghan, iraqi and palestinian children

We got a couple of punks on here squealing like pigs about poor chechnya while glorifying the murder of children. Pathetic.

I said before, I would have agreed with the cause of the pig Basayev if he had not targeted civilians.

[SilentObserver]

Yes and these are people who have never been to chechnya, yet they can some how tell you who was in the wrong.

That's just stupid. I have been to the US before, does that mean I should know all about what happened at Waco, Texas? Or to Britain, does that make me an expert the on subway bombings? Or after I vist Afghanistan, does that make me an expert on the Taliban? Or China, should I now be an expert on what happened at Tiananmen Square?
Just because some loud mouth has been to Chechnya, that doesn't mean he knows what happened at Beslan in Russia. It certainly does not make him an authority on what the victims think, or what actually happened. He's just some loud mouth that thinks it's OK to murder small children.

He knows as much about Beslan as an australian bushman knows about making an igloo. Squat. Just some random kid from Chechnya playing bigshot.

I would be alot nicer if he didn't support the murder of children. That just makes me not so nice to people.

[Sweetness]

Nope. He's not guilty even if he was I wouldn't care. I'm not gonna lie I'm always honest. Even if Shamil killed them I couldn't care less.

Brother Chechen,
you should know that
this man that you speak of has done terrible things to people that have not done anything wrong. He really is a very nasty person. Those poor children nevr hurt anyone. He could have fought soldiers, not children.
It is very bad that you said you don't care if he killed those kids. That is terrible. I don't think I like the kind of person you are showing yourself to be. I hope you are not really this way.

[Chechen]

Brother Chechen,
you should know that
this man that you speak of has done terrible things to people that have not done anything wrong. He really is a very nasty person. Those poor children nevr hurt anyone. He could have fought soldiers, not children.
It is very bad that you said you don't care if he killed those kids. That is terrible. I don't think I like the kind of person you are showing yourself to be. I hope you are not really this way.

Shamil Basayev was not a nasty person. My father was very good friends with him. Shamil was an honest and brave person. Always ready to answer for his mistakes that's why he even offered to go on trial. Do you see Putin or Bush offering to go on trial? I was forced to flee from my country and end up in another country where I'm being treated like a dog. I have lost many family members and friends that have been killed by Russian soldiers. I have friends that have been tortured by Russian soldiers. And I am not the only one. Every Chechen family has been affected. So has Shamil. Shamil fought against the Russian oppressor and fought succesfully. But the Russians have a lot bigger army than us. They have more people than us. Meaning that when we kill all of their soldiers they just send more they don't care cause they have a lot but our people are dying every day. The Russian soldiers only attack civilians and kill many of them. And the mujahideen don't have many weapons. While the Russians have tanks, planes, helicopters and everything they need. So the mujahideen cannot carry out big operations. They have to wait till they have enough weapons. Shamil had no choice because this war has to stop as soon as possible. Everyone in Chechnya is dying and there is not a single healthy person in Chechnya because there are all sorts of unexplainable sicknesses going around. 300 000 people have died. 50 000 children. Maybe for you guys it's not enough yet maybe you want to see us all dead but for us it's ENOUGH. A Chechen's blood is more precious for me than a Russian kafir's blood. If we have to do cruel things to stop this war then we will do cruel things. Because the whole world has been cruel towards us so if to stop the war we have to be cruel towards them then fine. It's them that chose it that way. We're only avenging our children's blood. Now you people can think what you want of me, I don't care. I only care what Allah thinks of me and he knows what I've been through.

[skhalid]

May Allah(s,w,t) give them good health and victory over the kafirun and the mushrikoon, ameen.

aameen

[Chechnya]

We got a couple of punks on here squealing like pigs about poor chechnya while glorifying the murder of children. Pathetic.

I said before, I would have agreed with the cause of the pig Basayev if he had not targeted civilians

:D ooo touchy fella aint ya? lool :laugh:

your hypocrisy has been exposed my friend so you resort to the good ol' tactic of name-calling :D

if im glorifying the murder of children, then what about americans, israelis and russians who VOTED their leaders in to continue killing Muslim children - these whole nations are therefore child-killers by nature lool - they should all be wiped out, right????? :)

of course as i say your evident hypocrisy on the difference between muslim and non-muslim children causes you only too bark like a dog when its non-muslim children being killed

have a nice one :D

[Chechnya]

Shamil Basayev was not a nasty person. My father was very good friends with him. Shamil was an honest and brave person. Always ready to answer for his mistakes that's why he even offered to go on trial. Do you see Putin or Bush offering to go on trial? I was forced to flee from my country and end up in another country where I'm being treated like a dog. I have lost many family members and friends that have been killed by Russian soldiers. I have friends that have been tortured by Russian soldiers. And I am not the only one. Every Chechen family has been affected. So has Shamil. Shamil fought against the Russian oppressor and fought succesfully. But the Russians have a lot bigger army than us. They have more people than us. Meaning that when we kill all of their soldiers they just send more they don't care cause they have a lot but our people are dying every day. The Russian soldiers only attack civilians and kill many of them. And the mujahideen don't have many weapons. While the Russians have tanks, planes, helicopters and everything they need. So the mujahideen cannot carry out big operations. They have to wait till they have enough weapons. Shamil had no choice because this war has to stop as soon as possible. Everyone in Chechnya is dying and there is not a single healthy person in Chechnya because there are all sorts of unexplainable sicknesses going around. 300 000 people have died. 50 000 children. Maybe for you guys it's not enough yet maybe you want to see us all dead but for us it's ENOUGH. A Chechen's blood is more precious for me than a Russian kafir's blood. If we have to do cruel things to stop this war then we will do cruel things. Because the whole world has been cruel towards us so if to stop the war we have to be cruel towards them then fine. It's them that chose it that way. We're only avenging our children's blood. Now you people can think what you want of me, I don't care. I only care what Allah thinks of me and he knows what I've been through.

Well said bruv

Brother Chechen,
you should know that
this man that you speak of has done terrible things to people that have not done anything wrong. He really is a very nasty person. Those poor children nevr hurt anyone. He could have fought soldiers, not children.
It is very bad that you said you don't care if he killed those kids. That is terrible. I don't think I like the kind of person you are showing yourself to be. I hope you are not really this way.

Another thing Sis sweetness, you obviously dont know much about chechnya or shamil so please refrain from making bad remarks about him - what you hear in the kafir media isnt always true

when bro chechen said he doesnt care - its because shamil did not kill the children nor was it ever his aim
do you know what happened in buddenyvosk in the first war?

in buddenvosk shamil took over a hospital in russia and forced the russians to negotiate a ceasefire in chechnya and stop the genocide - they didnt blow up the hospital to kill the hostages in buddenyvosk and that was the exact same aim in beslan.
shamil himself said he was shocked at the outcome of beslan - no-one expected that

[Chechen]

Another thing Sis sweetness, you obviously dont know much about chechnya or shamil so please refrain from making bad remarks about him - what you hear in the kafir media isnt always true

when bro chechen said he doesnt care - its because shamil did not kill the children nor was it ever his aim
do you know what happened in buddenyvosk in the first war?

in buddenvosk shamil took over a hospital in russia and forced the russians to negotiate a ceasefire in chechnya and stop the genocide - they didnt blow up the hospital to kill the hostages in buddenyvosk and that was the exact same aim in beslan.
shamil himself said he was shocked at the outcome of beslan - no-one expected that

Yeah Shamil said that he thought that like any normal human being Putin would go negotiate if he used children but he was shocked when Putin just ordered to attack the building without taking a second to think the situation through. Putin showed the whole world he didn't care about anyone's lives not even of his own people. Shamil was 100% sure that Putin would negotiate like the Russians had done in Budenyvosk but at the end it just turned out how he never suspected it would happen.

[Keltoi]

It doesn't matter what "should" have happened or who was "shocked". I don't know this man personally, and neither does anyone else on this board I would wager, but what happened in Beslan was the act of evil men(and women). Shamil didn't pull the trigger, so we don't know whether he wanted this to occur or not. God will judge.

I also find many posts made by "Chechnya" to be fairly disturbing in themselves. I would hope this individual would choose his words more carefully. If one truly wants the world to have sympathy for Chechnya, which I do have, these comments aren't going to win you any friends. If the Russians kill children, then you kill their children, that makes you just as bad as they are. You have lost the moral high ground. That is what was so unfortunate in Beslan, besides the death of over 200 innocent children. The Chechen cause became nothing more than another example of radical Muslim Jihad gone mad.

[Chechnya]

It doesn't matter what "should" have happened or who was "shocked". I don't know this man personally, and neither does anyone else on this board I would wager, but what happened in Beslan was the act of evil men(and women). Shamil didn't pull the trigger, so we don't know whether he wanted this to occur or not. God will judge.

Actually we do know - we have his own words to tell us what he wanted.

Beslan was just supposed to be a repeat of Buddenyvosk - things went badly wrong and Shamil accepted his role in that and offered to pay the price for it.

I also find many posts made by "Chechnya" to be fairly disturbing in themselves. I would hope this individual would choose his words more carefully. If one truly wants the world to have sympathy for Chechnya, which I do have, these comments aren't going to win you any friends. If the Russians kill children, then you kill their children, that makes you just as bad as they are. You have lost the moral high ground. That is what was so unfortunate in Beslan, besides the death of over 200 innocent children. The Chechen cause became nothing more than another example of radical Muslim Jihad gone mad.

What exactly do you find disturbing?

The fact that i said i want no children being killed, whether its through hostage-taking in Beslan or being bombed from the air in Grozny or Kabul?

Maybe you find it disturbing that i am saying non-muslims children are not more important than Muslim children?

And it wasnt the Chechens who killed the children in Beslan - as said by many hostages themselves, in fact they confirm that the hostage-takers were trying to get them out when the fire-fight started.

if the death of 200 kids in Beslan is "radical muslim jihad gone mad" then what would you call the death of over 40,000 chechen kids? spreading freedom and democracy in the western way?

[Keltoi]

Actually we do know - we have his own words to tell us what he wanted.

Beslan was just supposed to be a repeat of Buddenyvosk - things went badly wrong and Shamil accepted his role in that and offered to pay the price for it.



What exactly do you find disturbing?

The fact that i said i want no children being killed, whether its through hostage-taking in Beslan or being bombed from the air in Grozny or Kabul?

Maybe you find it disturbing that i am saying non-muslims children are not more important than Muslim children?

And it wasnt the Chechens who killed the children in Beslan - as said by many hostages themselves, in fact they confirm that the hostage-takers were trying to get them out when the fire-fight started.

if the death of 200 kids in Beslan is "radical muslim jihad gone mad" then what would you call the death of over 40,000 chechen kids? spreading freedom and democracy in the western way?

According to the children that survived Beslan the hostage-takers were not trying to "get them out". In fact, many of the children were shot by the hostage takers as they attempted to flee. Those who care about the truth know what happened in Beslan. However, that is a different point from the one I raised to you.

It is a question of the moral high ground. In order to achieve support from the international community, it is important that the Chechens are perceived to be the "good guys". By butchering those children in Beslan, those terrorists have effectively isolated the Chechens from most international sympathy. I would hope that the majority of Chechens were horrified by what those people did in their name, and I'm sure they are. Hopefully you can understand this.

[Pygoscelis]

They took them hostage to scare Putin and force him to negotitate they had no intention of hurting anyone.

And thus by definition they are terrorists.

I've been here for a while now and I must say that this is the first time I've encountered a muslim here defending terrorism.

[Chechen]

According to the children that survived Beslan the hostage-takers were not trying to "get them out". In fact, many of the children were shot by the hostage takers as they attempted to flee. Those who care about the truth know what happened in Beslan. However, that is a different point from the one I raised to you.

It is a question of the moral high ground. In order to achieve support from the international community, it is important that the Chechens are perceived to be the "good guys". By butchering those children in Beslan, those terrorists have effectively isolated the Chechens from most international sympathy. I would hope that the majority of Chechens were horrified by what those people did in their name, and I'm sure they are. Hopefully you can understand this.

What does it matter if people see us as good guys or bad guys? When they considered us as bad guys they wouldn't support us and now as they see us as bad guys they still won't support us so what does it change for us? It would matter if we got help from people but we don't so nothing has changed for us excpt the fact that people consider us as "bad guys" now. Also the majority of the world has since the beginning seen us as bad guys.

[Chechen]

And thus by definition they are terrorists.

I've been here for a while now and I must say that this is the first time I've encountered a muslim here defending terrorism.

Defending terrorism? I don't see anyone defending terrorism.

[Chechnya]

According to the children that survived Beslan the hostage-takers were not trying to "get them out". In fact, many of the children were shot by the hostage takers as they attempted to flee. Those who care about the truth know what happened in Beslan. However, that is a different point from the one I raised to you.

check out the names of just some of the hostages i mentioned earlier and their testimonies about what happened.
apart from the words of the hostages themselves, it absolutely makes no sense for the hostage-takers to be shooting the kids - these are the same guys that fought in grozny and elsewhere, proving their mettle - why would they start shooting kids for the sake of it?.
Once they realised the seige was over, then their aim was to fight the russians outside and the hostages confirm that they were just trying to get them out.

n fact one hostage went as far as to say she didnt fear the hostage-takers at all at that stage but was more fearful of the russian soldiers who were firing blindly.

It is a question of the moral high ground. In order to achieve support from the international community, it is important that the Chechens are perceived to be the "good guys". By butchering those children in Beslan, those terrorists have effectively isolated the Chechens from most international sympathy. I would hope that the majority of Chechens were horrified by what those people did in their name, and I'm sure they are. Hopefully you can understand this.

Im afraid yor living in a fanatasy world.

You talk about support of the international community - but where was the international community when 40,000 chechen children were being killed???

It is ludicrous that the "international community" places these limitations on what actions basayev and chechen fighters are allowed to take while at the same time meeting and greeting Putin and ever since 2001 basically giving him a free hand to do what he wants.

For 12 years they ignored the butchering of Chechen women and children so to say any Chechen should care about what they think is absurd.

[Pygoscelis]

silentobserver is a kafir

First time I've encountered this here. What is a "kafir"? Is it a derogatory slur for "non muslim" as the context here implies?

[Chechen]

First time I've encountered this here. What is a "kafir"? Is it a derogatory slur for "non muslim" as the context here implies?

Yeah kafir means non-muslim.

[Pygoscelis]

Also the majority of the world has since the beginning seen us as bad guys.

So you're just living up to the label?

That these people decided to go killing children and thus threw away any sympathy means more than just the sympathy. They threw away the reason they got that sympathy. They have become evil. They are no longer good. How can this not be important to a person of a faith (Islam) that supposedly values good over evil?

[Chechen]

So you're just living up to the label?

That these people decided to go killing children and thus threw away any sympathy means more than just the sympathy. They threw away the reason they got that sympathy. They have become evil. They are no longer good. How can this not be important to a person of a faith (Islam) that supposedly values good over evil?

The Chechens have always been seen as evil. Even by most of their "muslim" brothers. Nothing has changed. And I still can't manage to understand how we who have been oppressed for 400 years, have gone through all sorts of torture, have lost 300 000 people among them 50 000 children for these last 12 years only, 80% of our country has been destroyed and at the end WE are the evil ones??

[Chechnya]

First time I've encountered this here. What is a "kafir"? Is it a derogatory slur for "non muslim" as the context here implies?

Who said that was a slur?

The Chechens have always been seen as evil. Even by most of their "muslim" brothers.

Which Muslim brothers?

I dont know anyone who sees them as evil.

[Chechen]

Which Muslim brothers?

I dont know anyone who sees them as evil.

Nah bro trust me I know some muslims where I live who hate Chechens. Well.. if you really can call them muslims...

[Chechnya]

Nah bro trust me I know some muslims where I live who hate Chechens. Well.. if you really can call them muslims...

what are their reasons?

you get these apologist muslims everywhere - even here in britain

best to ignore them bruv - they just got big self-esteem issues or something.

[Pygoscelis]

and at the end WE are the evil ones??

Those of you who go killing children at the end of it all, yes indeed, they are evil ones. Two wrongs do not make a right. And two attrocities don't either. Consider for a moment that what has befallen them is evil AND they have then become evil themselves. This is not an either/or.

[Pygoscelis]

Who said that was a slur?

That seemed to be the case from context. I wasn't sure, which is why I asked.

[Chechnya]

Those of you who go killing children at the end of it all, yes indeed, they are evil ones. Two wrongs do not make a right. And two attrocities don't either. Consider for a moment that that has befallen them is evil AND they have then become evil themselves. This is not an either/or.

we could take this logic further and say the whole of america, russia, israel etc. are evil because they re-instated proven child-killers and murderers into power like bush and putin.

you should really be concetrating on these evil nations first :rollseyes

[Chechen]

Those of you who go killing children at the end of it all, yes indeed, they are evil ones. Two wrongs do not make a right. And two attrocities don't either. Consider for a moment that what has befallen them is evil AND they have then become evil themselves. This is not an either/or.

Once you go through what I have been through meaning losing family and friends in war, not being able to return to your country for 7 years not see your family for 7 years and many other things which I can't tell you, you start to have phsycological problems and you can't control your anger or hate and you no longer can see who is your friend and who is your enemy. Most Chechens suffer from this kind of stuff and they're ready to do ANYTHING to stop all of this because we're going crazy. And I also live abroad imagine for the ones who live there. Who have to hear the sound of bombs everyday. Who have family and friends who constantly die. Who see dead corpses lying around in the street. And the children see these things too and they grow up with hate in them. Chechens, even myself, once we see a Russian be he a soldier or not we feel terrible rage and are ready to jump on him and rip him apart. It's hard for you to understand these things because you don't know what war is. You haven't experienced it. Our life has been spoiled and we suffer everyday just because the Russians want more money!

[Pygoscelis]

we could take this logic further and say the whole of america, russia, israel etc. are evil because they re-instated proven child-killers and murderers into power like bush and putin.

you should really be concetrating on these evil nations first :rollseyes

Interesting logic that. You would hold all citizens of these places responsible? Even if they didn't vote for the regime who comitted the said acts? And what makes you think we don't criticize Russia, Israel and the USA?

That's your straw man talking.

And just because somebody else is doing something terrible that gives these folks who killed children a free pass? Again, two attrocities don't make a right.

[Pygoscelis]

Once you go through what I have been through meaning losing family and friends in war, not being able to return to your country for 7 years not see your family for 7 years and many other things which I can't tell you, you start to have phsycological problems and you can't control your anger or hate and you no longer can see who is your friend and who is your enemy.

Children are not your enemy. That much I think should be visible through the rage.

Chechens, even myself, once we see a Russian be he a soldier or not we feel terrible rage and are ready to jump on him and rip him apart.

And that makes you dangerous. If you are prone to go violent on somebody you've never met just because he happens to be Russian, and even if he had nothing whatsoever to do with the attrocities you speak of, that makes you a danger to society and frankly you should be locked up until you can regain perspective and self control.

It's hard for you to understand these things because you don't know what war is.

You presume too much.

[Chechnya]

Interesting logic that. You would hold all citizens of these places responsible? Even if they didn't vote for the regime who comitted the said acts? And what makes you think we don't criticize Russia, Israel and the USA?

That's your straw man talking.

Who else is responsible if not the nation that voted them in - if americans or russians cant find one guy from 300 million people that doesnt believe in killling muslims as a foreign policy, then what are we to think? :rollseyes

Oh sorry i forgot theres different rules when its non-muslims dying instead of muslims :)

And just because somebody else is doing something terrible that gives these folks who killed children a free pass? Again, two attrocities don't make a right.

Who says they do?

Im just telling you to concetrate on the bigger problem of nations electing child-killers into power first.

You presume too much.

Which war have you been through?

[SATalha]

Oh Allah please make the people realise that more Chechen children have died. So focus on them instaed one act of sheer despiration which led to the unfortunate killing of children on the other side.

[Pygoscelis]

Who else is responsible if not the nation that voted them in - if americans or russians cant find one guy from 300 million people that doesnt believe in killling muslims as a foreign policy, then what are we to think? :rollseyes

I repeat, you would hold the entire populace responsible? Even those who didn't vote for these people? The majority of US citizens didn't vote for Bush, for example. And many are outraged at Bush's actions and view him much the way you probably do.

Oh sorry i forgot theres different rules when its non-muslims dying instead of muslims :)

And again with your straw man. Why do you keep insisting on this? Who here has said that attrocities done to muslims are any less sickening? You seem to want to paint everybody as evil. Perhaps to justify a bigotry you care not to admit?

Im just telling you to concetrate on the bigger problem of nations electing child-killers into power first.

I have plenty of scorn to pass around. No need to triage it for me.

[Chechen]

Children are not your enemy. That much I think should be visible through the rage.



And that makes you dangerous. If you are prone to go violent on somebody you've never met just because he happens to be Russian, and even if he had nothing whatsoever to do with the attrocities you speak of, that makes you a danger to society and frankly you should be locked up until you can regain perspective and self control.



You presume too much.

Oh I should be locked up because I went through war and that has given me psychological problems? You speak as if it was my choice. And did I ever say I attacked someone just because he's Russian? No I said I feel like attacking him but I keep myself in control. And sadly I won't be able to become a normal person cause I have gone through what most people have never been through. I have seen things in real life which you people see in movies and feel schocked about.

[SATalha]

:raging:

Oh I should be locked up because I went through war and that has given me psychological problems? You speak as if it was my choice. And did I ever say I attacked someone just because he's Russian? No I said I feel like attacking him but I keep myself in control. And sadly I won't be able to become a normal person cause I have gone through what most people have never been through. I have seen things in real life which you people see in movies and feel schocked about.

Yep a study was conducted, Chechens are the most psycologicaly effected people in the world. This is due to the fact that most people have witnessed loved ones being killed. Look the Chechens are the victims o.k I am sick of hearing about the victims of a few killings by the Mujahideens. Everyone forgot about the Chechens and let the Russsian terrorist do as they please. :raging:

[Joan of Arc]

Oh I should be locked up because I went through war and that has given me psychological problems? You speak as if it was my choice. And did I ever say I attacked someone just because he's Russian? No I said I feel like attacking him but I keep myself in control. And sadly I won't be able to become a normal person cause I have gone through what most people have never been through. I have seen things in real life which you people see in movies and feel schocked about.

Through Alla all things are possible. Maybe you should concentrate on your deen and ask for peace within your soul when you perform the salat

[SATalha]

Can I just make a comment I am reading through this post and I have noticed that people dont realise the truama that the Chechens when through. I can become very graphic in my explanation but i dont want to. Trust me it will scken you.

What will it take for you to break down? the rape of your wife? the rape of your sister? or Mother? tell me. If you saw this wouldnt you go psyco. Or maybe seeing your brother die in front of you.... would that do it? I can go one and it has happened to every Chechen. Is it surprising that many brothers and sisters have lost the will to live. Is it surprising that they see Russians and Russians as the ones to kill. Slap yourself and wake up and put yourself in the shoes of Chechen.

Dont judge what you have not experienced :enough!:

[Joan of Arc]

Can I just make a comment I am reading through this post and I have noticed that people dont realise the truama that the Chechens when through. I can become very graphic in my explanation but i dont want to. Trust me it will scken you.

What will it take for you to break down? the rape of your wife? the rape of your sister? or Mother? tell me. If you saw this wouldnt you go psyco. Or maybe seeing your brother die in front of you.... would that do it? I can go one and it has happened to every Chechen. Is it surprising that many brothers and sisters have lost the will to live. Is it surprising that they see Russians and Russians as the ones to kill. Slap yourself and wake up and put yourself in the shoes of Chechen.

Dont judge what you have not experienced :enough!:

Did not all the mighty prophets go through trials and tribulations but yet preached peace? From Musa to Muhammed they have endured worst. You are to fight those that fight against you not the innocent for example children. If Allah has created you obviously Allah can repair you when you are broken.

[SATalha]

Did not all the mighty prophets go through trials and tribulations but yet preached peace? From Musa to Muhammed they have endured worst. You are to fight those that fight against you not the innocent for example children. If Allah has created you obviously Allah can repair you when you are broken.

You are right keep in my mind these people where the chosen ones, Phrophets. They had the right mindset we do not. We are weak in our iman compared to them. All I am saying is that we can not every one to exercise restraint, there are some people out there that just wont be able to control themselves. The only output of their anger is the Russian nation that has inflicted this harm on them. Please bare in mind the human mind is weak we are not like the phrophets or the Sahabas.

[Joan of Arc]

You are right keep in my mind these people where the chosen ones, Phrophets. They had the right mindset we do not. We are weak in our iman compared to them. All I am saying is that we can not every one to exercise restraint, there are some people out there that just wont be able to control themselves. The only output of their anger is the Russian nation that has inflicted this harm on them. Please bare in mind the human mind is weak we are not like the phrophets or the Sahabas.

Becareful brother not to hold these prophets up as idols. Even though they are chosen they were still just men. They had flesh as we do. We might not be able to reach their level of unsderstanding but we must strive for it.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Becareful brother not to hold these prophets up as idols. Even though they are chosen they were still just men. They had flesh as we do. We might not be able to reach their level of unsderstanding but we must strive for it.

are you muslim?


Also SATalha after reading what you said i understood even better why the highest places of jannah are reserved for men of patience, subhanAllaah imagine having patience through all that. May Allaah strengthen us all...

[Joan of Arc]

are you muslim?


Also SATalha after reading what you said i understood even better why the highest places of jannah are reserved for men of patience, subhanAllaah imagine having patience through all that. May Allaah strengthen us all...

Does it matter?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Does it matter?

i like to understand the person im talking to and addressing them as such.

For example if your not muslim then i will avoid calling you brother and acting as though you accept the teachings of islam and if your muslim then i can call you a brother and talk as though you fully accept islam and its teachings and i can use islam to prove things to you.

So what are you?

[Joan of Arc]

i like to understand the person im talking to and addressing them as such.

For example if your not muslim then i will avoid calling you brother and acting as though you accept the teachings of islam and if your muslim then i can call you a brother and talk as though you fully accept islam and its teachings and i can use islam to prove things to you.

So what are you?

I wouldn't be a brother anyway lol. I don't want to go into my background in regards of myself and Islam but no I am not a muslim. That does not mean I have not studied the Quran

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^hehe she's a sis :D sis in humanity at least :)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I wouldn't be a brother anyway lol. I don't want to go into my background in regards of myself and Islam but no I am not a muslim. That does not mean I have not studied the Quran

would it be ok to make a seperate thread and discuss what you have studied and what you have deduced? honestly if your a non muslim studying the quran then i want to understand what you think, if you dont mind

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^ i would wana know too actually :D

[IbnAbdulHakim]

he/she got banned!!! bah!!! i really wanted to know aswell...

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

huh why? LOL. jus now?? :X

[IbnAbdulHakim]

huh why? LOL. jus now?? :X

yes i scanned through his posts and cant seem to find why it could be :?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

its a SHE bro...LOL.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

oh ye lol, hmm i dont know of any other non-muslim thats actually studied the quran and rejected it... well theres those priests etc but they have the "spirit" in them so cant really say much, but this one wasnt even a christian!!

[Pygoscelis]

What will it take for you to break down?

Not relevant

Is it surprising that they see Russians and Russians as the ones to kill.

If they have "gone psycho" as you put it, then they are "psycho" and they should be locked up. How a danger to society comes to be is not relevant to the fact that it needs to be neutralized. If people seriously want to tear apart innocent Russian civilians, they need to be locked up, plain and simple. That or destroyed.

[Chechen]

Not relevant



If they have "gone psycho" as you put it, then they are "psycho" and they should be locked up. How a danger to society comes to be is not relevant to the fact that it needs to be neutralized. If people seriously want to tear apart innocent Russian civilians, they need to be locked up, plain and simple. That or destroyed.

If you really think that someone has gone through war and has seen things that haunt him he should be locked up? Why don't we lock up all the mentally retarded people and the handicapped people and blind people. They have problems so we should lock them up until they become "normal".

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Then the people who did this to the chechens should be dealt with the same. Thats also very plain and simple. Those chechens had a reason to go crazy. What reason did the oppressors have?

[Chechnya]

And again with your straw man. Why do you keep insisting on this? Who here has said that attrocities done to muslims are any less sickening? You seem to want to paint everybody as evil. Perhaps to justify a bigotry you care not to admit?

What can i say. The difference in muslim and nonmuslim lives became even more apparent after Beslan.
Esp. in the west.
If western leaders invite Putin to meet and discuss with, why are they so disgusted with the "terrorists" in Beslan? Why is there still more discussion on the 200 non-muslim kids in beslan than the 40,000 muslim kids in chechnya?

As for whose to blame for these guys being power - i would have thought the answer obvious: the nations that elected them.

[Keltoi]

What can i say. The difference in muslim and nonmuslim lives became even more apparent after Beslan.
Esp. in the west.
If western leaders invite Putin to meet and discuss with, why are they so disgusted with the "terrorists" in Beslan? Why is there still more discussion on the 200 non-muslim kids in beslan than the 40,000 muslim kids in chechnya?

As for whose to blame for these guys being power - i would have thought the answer obvious: the nations that elected them.

Because the up-close butchery of innocent children, much of it captured on video, tends to have more impact than a news article on a statistical number of civilians killed in Chechnya. That is the cold hard reality of the situation. Plus, Putin and Bush were good friends at one time. They aren't anymore. However, the U.S. is in a tough position politically with Russia. Putin has done a good job at painting all the Chechen fighters as terrorists, and obviously Beslan cemented that description for everyone. If the U.S. criticizes Russia for fighting an enemy capable of butchering schoolchildren huddled in a gym, Russia would accuse the U.S. of being hypocritical on the issue. If Beslan hadn't happened, there would have been more avenues to pursue politically.

[Chechen]

Because the up-close butchery of innocent children, much of it captured on video, tends to have more impact than a news article on a statistical number of civilians killed in Chechnya. That is the cold hard reality of the situation. Plus, Putin and Bush were good friends at one time. They aren't anymore. However, the U.S. is in a tough position politically with Russia. Putin has done a good job at painting all the Chechen fighters as terrorists, and obviously Beslan cemented that description for everyone. If the U.S. criticizes Russia for fighting an enemy capable of butchering schoolchildren huddled in a gym, Russia would accuse the U.S. of being hypocritical on the issue. If Beslan hadn't happened, there would have been more avenues to pursue politically.

Believe me there are plenty of videos showing Chechens getting killed, getting tortured etc. Just go to the thread I created called: Stop the war. It's got videos of the destroyed capital city, of dead people aswell as children. And I don't know what has you think that Bush and Putin are enemies. They've always been helping eachother especially after 911. Putin said to Bush: You have your terrorists and I have my terrorists. So that was basically to tell him that he won't say a word about what Bush does as long as Bush keeps his mouth shut about Chechnya. So if Beslan never happened America would never help Chechnya.

[Chechnya]

Because the up-close butchery of innocent children, much of it captured on video, tends to have more impact than a news article on a statistical number of civilians killed in Chechnya. That is the cold hard reality of the situation. Plus, Putin and Bush were good friends at one time. They aren't anymore. However, the U.S. is in a tough position politically with Russia. Putin has done a good job at painting all the Chechen fighters as terrorists, and obviously Beslan cemented that description for everyone. If the U.S. criticizes Russia for fighting an enemy capable of butchering schoolchildren huddled in a gym, Russia would accuse the U.S. of being hypocritical on the issue. If Beslan hadn't happened, there would have been more avenues to pursue politically.

already answered that before

all political ways to stop the slaughter of the chechen people were dead - the international community either support putin or gave its silent approval as to what he was doing

chechens didnt lose anyting in beslan since they didnt have anything in the first place - no world support, muslim or non-muslim (apart from afghanistan).

If i am to believe what you say, then i must assume all non-muslims are so fickle that they think 200 dead kids is worse than 40,000 dead kids simply because the former "happened on the telly" and the latter didnt

i cant begin to tell you how idiotic that is

you guys arent really inspiring me with confidence here:rollseyes

[Keltoi]

already answered that before

all political ways to stop the slaughter of the chechen people were dead - the international community either support putin or gave its silent approval as to what he was doing

chechens didnt lose anyting in beslan since they didnt have anything in the first place - no world support, muslim or non-muslim (apart from afghanistan).

If i am to believe what you say, then i must assume all non-muslims are so fickle that they think 200 dead kids is worse than 40,000 dead kids simply because the former "happened on the telly" and the latter didnt

i cant begin to tell you how idiotic that is

you guys arent really inspiring me with confidence here:rollseyes

It isn't that hard to understand. Watching bloody naked children running out of a burning building and screaming parents holding their dead child in their arms has more impact if one can see the images and hear the screams. There is nothing "idiotic" about that reality, it is human nature.

[Chechnya]

It isn't that hard to understand. Watching bloody naked children running out of a burning building and screaming parents holding their dead child in their arms has more impact if one can see the images and hear the screams. There is nothing "idiotic" about that reality, it is human nature.

on the contrary there is something very idiotic about it.

If one can see the tragedy of 200 children dying - then its not a big leap to imagine what it would be like for 50 times that number being killed - and still dying to this day.

So the ordeal for Beslan kids (though they will carry the scars) is now over - while the ordeal for Chechen children is going into its 12th year and all the people who danced in anger about Beslan have dissappeared again.

the only thing that i can see that would make a difference is if the people cared about one set of children and not the other.

[Chechen]

It isn't that hard to understand. Watching bloody naked children running out of a burning building and screaming parents holding their dead child in their arms has more impact if one can see the images and hear the screams. There is nothing "idiotic" about that reality, it is human nature.

You can see dead Chechen children on TV or internet but still zero reaction from the world.

[Pygoscelis]

If you really think that someone has gone through war and has seen things that haunt him he should be locked up? Why don't we lock up all the mentally retarded people

We do, when they are a danger to society. This is no different.

[Pygoscelis]

If i am to believe what you say, then i must assume all non-muslims are so fickle that they think 200 dead kids is worse than 40,000 dead kids simply because the former "happened on the telly" and the latter didnt

All non-muslims you say? Bigoted much?

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

He said if what is being said is true then he would assume so, doesnt mean he actually does.

[Chechen]

We do, when they are a danger to society. This is no different.

LOL you see me as a danger to society??

[SilentObserver]

your hypocrisy has been exposed my friend

''Hypocrisy'',''friend''? An odd choice of words. I have not given any demonstration of hypocrisy. Please point out where. ''Friend''? You and I are definitely not friends. I would never befriend a person that openly supports murdering children.

if im glorifying the murder of children, then what about americans, israelis and russians who VOTED their leaders in to continue killing Muslim children - these whole nations are therefore child-killers by nature lool - they should all be wiped out, right????? :)

then what about americans, israelis and russians

What have they got to do with our conversation? I'm pretty sure neither you or I are from these countries. And it wouldn't matter. The "what about them" arguement does not make it ok for you.

these whole nations are therefore child-killers by nature

No, that's rediculous. Most people don't vote. And the ones that do are not voting to kill muslims. In any of the countries you named, people vote based on domestic issues. Taxes, economy, social programs, and also mixed in foreign policy.

they should all be wiped out, right?????

not worth anymore response than this.

of course as i say your evident hypocrisy on the difference between muslim and non-muslim children causes you only too bark like a dog when its non-muslim children being killed

We have not yet discussed in depth the killing of other children, be it muslim or non-muslim. So at this point your accusation of hypocrisy is baseless.

[SilentObserver]

Yeah Shamil said that he thought that like any normal human being Putin would go negotiate if he used children but he was shocked when Putin just ordered to attack the building without taking a second to think the situation through. Putin showed the whole world he didn't care about anyone's lives not even of his own people. Shamil was 100% sure that Putin would negotiate like the Russians had done in Budenyvosk but at the end it just turned out how he never suspected it would happen.

He shot kid's fathers right in front of them, first thing when he took the school. He took hundreds of children and put their lives in danger. He threatened their lives and terrorized them. He gave no food or water, the children had to drink urine.

[SilentObserver]

The Chechens have always been seen as evil. Even by most of their "muslim" brothers. Nothing has changed. And I still can't manage to understand how we who have been oppressed for 400 years, have gone through all sorts of torture, have lost 300 000 people among them 50 000 children for these last 12 years only, 80% of our country has been destroyed and at the end WE are the evil ones??

The Chechens have always been seen as evil.

I have never seen this. Personally, I don't think chechens are evil. I know two chechens (related to one) that are wonderful. Not evil.

I think that Shamil Basayev and anyone that supports the terrorizing of children are evil.

[SilentObserver]

we could take this logic further and say the whole of america, russia, israel etc. are evil because they re-instated proven child-killers and murderers into power like bush and putin.

you should really be concetrating on these evil nations first :rollseyes

This thread is not about any of those. Start another thread so we can bash those too.

Once you go through what I have been through meaning losing family and friends in war, not being able to return to your country for 7 years not see your family for 7 years and many other things which I can't tell you, you start to have phsycological problems and you can't control your anger or hate and you no longer can see who is your friend and who is your enemy. Most Chechens suffer from this kind of stuff and they're ready to do ANYTHING to stop all of this because we're going crazy. And I also live abroad imagine for the ones who live there. Who have to hear the sound of bombs everyday. Who have family and friends who constantly die. Who see dead corpses lying around in the street. And the children see these things too and they grow up with hate in them. Chechens, even myself, once we see a Russian be he a soldier or not we feel terrible rage and are ready to jump on him and rip him apart. It's hard for you to understand these things because you don't know what war is. You haven't experienced it. Our life has been spoiled and we suffer everyday just because the Russians want more money!

This is awful. You should have grown up with balloons and birthday parties, not bombs and gunfire. And like I've been saying all along, all children are innocent and should never have to see the things you have. Believe me, I know. A child is never the same after seeing brain material mixed with chunks of skull. It changes you. But this has been my point. No matter what the cause, taking those children was inexcusable. Whatever has happened in chechnya does not make it right.
You are not the only ones to have lived in a warzone, and been robbed of childhood. Many people have. And yet they still do not support violence toward children. All children are innocent. Any person that attacks children is pure evil.

[Pygoscelis]

LOL you see me as a danger to society??

Please read what was actually written.

I would mean you if you meet the description I posted. Do you? I certainly hope not.

[Akil]

These arguments are circular and somewhat heated. You might want to think about agreeing to disagree on this one.

[Chechen]

I have never seen this. Personally, I don't think chechens are evil. I know two chechens (related to one) that are wonderful. Not evil.

I think that Shamil Basayev and anyone that supports the terrorizing of children are evil.

And your 2 friends they don't support Basayev?

[Chechen]

He shot kid's fathers right in front of them, first thing when he took the school. He took hundreds of children and put their lives in danger. He threatened their lives and terrorized them. He gave no food or water, the children had to drink urine.

Yes of course he did...

[Chechen]

Please read what was actually written.

I would mean you if you meet the description I posted. Do you? I certainly hope not.

So I guess I am, cool.

[SATalha]

Becareful brother not to hold these prophets up as idols. Even though they are chosen they were still just men. They had flesh as we do. We might not be able to reach their level of unsderstanding but we must strive for it.

Dont accuse me of portarying these men as idols please. Yeah and Ibn Abdul Hakim said the highest heaven is reserved for those with the most patience. We just have to make Dwa that Allah strenghtens the people who are going through great hardship. They will recieve there reward in the after life. When i start thinking about the pain they go through it makes me sad. But to make myself happy again i think of the reward that these people will recieve Inshallah in the hear after.

If the world wants to ignor let them, let us Muslims read our sallah and make Dwa for the people that are suffering due to occupation and other stupid reasons.

[SilentObserver]

And your 2 friends they don't support Basayev?

They support the cause, but object to the methods.

[Sweetness]

Shamil Basayev was not a nasty person. My father was very good friends with him. Shamil was an honest and brave person. Always ready to answer for his mistakes that's why he even offered to go on trial. Do you see Putin or Bush offering to go on trial? I was forced to flee from my country and end up in another country where I'm being treated like a dog. I have lost many family members and friends that have been killed by Russian soldiers. I have friends that have been tortured by Russian soldiers. And I am not the only one. Every Chechen family has been affected. So has Shamil. Shamil fought against the Russian oppressor and fought succesfully. But the Russians have a lot bigger army than us. They have more people than us. Meaning that when we kill all of their soldiers they just send more they don't care cause they have a lot but our people are dying every day. The Russian soldiers only attack civilians and kill many of them. And the mujahideen don't have many weapons. While the Russians have tanks, planes, helicopters and everything they need. So the mujahideen cannot carry out big operations. They have to wait till they have enough weapons. Shamil had no choice because this war has to stop as soon as possible. Everyone in Chechnya is dying and there is not a single healthy person in Chechnya because there are all sorts of unexplainable sicknesses going around. 300 000 people have died. 50 000 children. Maybe for you guys it's not enough yet maybe you want to see us all dead but for us it's ENOUGH. A Chechen's blood is more precious for me than a Russian kafir's blood. If we have to do cruel things to stop this war then we will do cruel things. Because the whole world has been cruel towards us so if to stop the war we have to be cruel towards them then fine. It's them that chose it that way. We're only avenging our children's blood. Now you people can think what you want of me, I don't care. I only care what Allah thinks of me and he knows what I've been through.

You are wrong brother, shamil was not a good person, he used innocent chldren in a bad way for something that was good, but it was still a horrible thing to do to children. MAybe it was for good, but it was still a VERY wrong way to do it. I put him in the same place in my mind as both putin and bush. And for you to say that a chechens blood is more precious than a russians is a very bad thing to say:thumbs_do :rant: . Nobody is worth more than others because of what country they comefrom. The way that you say such a thing is in a very nationalism way, but is that allowed in islam:uuh: ? I don't think so.

[SATalha]

No way can i put Shamil on the level of Bush or Putin! They have killed more children than anyone else. Dont believe everything you hear about these men. It might be true to a certain extent, but most of it is propaganda. This propaganda is used as leverage for the attacks in Chechnya.

[Chechnya]

You are wrong brother, shamil was not a good person, he used innocent chldren in a bad way for something that was good, but it was still a horrible thing to do to children. MAybe it was for good, but it was still a VERY wrong way to do it. I put him in the same place in my mind as both putin and bush. And for you to say that a chechens blood is more precious than a russians is a very bad thing to say . Nobody is worth more than others because of what country they comefrom. The way that you say such a thing is in a very nationalism way, but is that allowed in islam ? I don't think so.

Since you have proven you know nothing about him, why even bother commenting?

In 1996 Shamil saved hundreds of thousands of lives by ending a brutal war - and the mass-murder and rape of his people - through his military brilliance and bravery.

Can anyone name me ANY Muslim today who has done that for our Ummah?

Anyone?????

He wasnt perfect - he made mistakes. In Beslan he made the biggest mistake of his life - he himself said he regretted it and offered to pay with his life for it.

And yet we still have some people who have the nerve to come on and slander him - i advise you to find out about Chechnya and Shamils life before commmenting.

Please take the advice.

[wilberhum]

Can anyone name me ANY Muslim today who has done that for our Ummah?

Anyone?????

OBL has done more.

[Chechnya]

OBL has done more.

No he hasnt.

And no-one knows whether what they blame him for was actually carried out by him - but thats a discussion for another thread

[SATalha]

Since you have proven you know nothing about him, why even bother commenting?

In 1996 Shamil saved hundreds of thousands of lives by ending a brutal war - and the mass-murder and rape of his people - through his military brilliance and bravery.

Can anyone name me ANY Muslim today who has done that for our Ummah?

Anyone?????

He wasnt perfect - he made mistakes. In Beslan he made the biggest mistake of his life - he himself said he regretted it and offered to pay with his life for it.

And yet we still have some people who have the nerve to come on and slander him - i advise you to find out about Chechnya and Shamils life before commmenting.

Please take the advice.

Very true nicely said

[Chechen]

You are wrong brother, shamil was not a good person, he used innocent chldren in a bad way for something that was good, but it was still a horrible thing to do to children. MAybe it was for good, but it was still a VERY wrong way to do it. I put him in the same place in my mind as both putin and bush. And for you to say that a chechens blood is more precious than a russians is a very bad thing to say:thumbs_do :rant: . Nobody is worth more than others because of what country they comefrom. The way that you say such a thing is in a very nationalism way, but is that allowed in islam:uuh: ? I don't think so.

I didn't just say that a Chechen's blood is more precious than a Russian's or anybody else's blood, I said that for me a Chechen's blood is more precious than a Russian's blood meaning that if a Chechen dies I'll be sad but if a Russian kafir dies you think I'm going to be sad for him? I never said we were superior I just tried to say that I'm sad when I see Chechens dying but don't care at all if I see a Russian kafir dying. I have the right to love my country and love my countrymen. And as for you talking bad about Basayev, you should go try and put the world's second most powerful army on its knees with only 1500 men who are carrying nothing but AK's while the enemy has 30 000 men with tanks, planes, helicopters etc, once you end a genocidal war that has costed the death of 300 000 people which among are 45 000 children and 80% of Grozny being completely destroyed. Once you achieve all of that you might be able to come back and talk about Basayev but for now you can't say anything about him.

[Sweetness]

I didn't just say that a Chechen's blood is more precious than a Russian's or anybody else's blood, I said that for me a Chechen's blood is more precious than a Russian's blood meaning that if a Chechen dies I'll be sad but if a Russian kafir dies you think I'm going to be sad for him? I never said we were superior I just tried to say that I'm sad when I see Chechens dying but don't care at all if I see a Russian kafir dying. I have the right to love my country and love my countrymen. And as for you talking bad about Basayev, you should go try and put the world's second most powerful army on its knees with only 1500 men who are carrying nothing but AK's while the enemy has 30 000 men with tanks, planes, helicopters etc, once you end a genocidal war that has costed the death of 300 000 people which among are 45 000 children and 80% of Grozny being completely destroyed. Once you achieve all of that you might be able to come back and talk about Basayev but for now you can't say anything about him.

I'm sad when I see Chechens dying but don't care at all if I see a Russian kafir dying.

OMG brother!?! You are being just awful to say this!:embarrass Such words are embarassing. No life is worth more than another just because one is a russian or not a muslim. thats just awful for you to say:thumbs_do . and I dont care what you say Basaayev acomplished, he still did things in a very bad way. you should never take innocent babies lives hostage for any reason, those poor kids:'( . And you say that you have the right to love your country, but you forget that islam does not permit nationism.

[Sweetness]

Since you have proven you know nothing about him, why even bother commenting?

In 1996 Shamil saved hundreds of thousands of lives by ending a brutal war - and the mass-murder and rape of his people - through his military brilliance and bravery.

Can anyone name me ANY Muslim today who has done that for our Ummah?

Anyone?????

He wasnt perfect - he made mistakes. In Beslan he made the biggest mistake of his life - he himself said he regretted it and offered to pay with his life for it.

And yet we still have some people who have the nerve to come on and slander him - i advise you to find out about Chechnya and Shamils life before commmenting.

Please take the advice.

Brother, I have the right to coment about what ever I please, who do you think you are to say what I can talk about!? Why even comment on what I have said without even knowing anything about me?! and brother you say he made a mistake, but a mistake is like dropping ice cream or driving the wrong way on a road, he planned something awful, that was much more than a mistake. poor kids should be left out of such disputes.

[Chechnya]

Brother, I have the right to coment about what ever I please, who do you think you are to say what I can talk about!? Why even comment on what I have said without even knowing anything about me?! and brother you say he made a mistake, but a mistake is like dropping ice cream or driving the wrong way on a road, he planned something awful, that was much more than a mistake. poor kids should be left out of such disputes.

Yes you can comment about what you like - my question to you was why slander a brother whom you seem to know nothing about?

Why not just remain silent if your unsure on what is actually happening?

A mistake is a mistake - he offered to die for it, what more do you want from him?

Again if you know about the situation in Chechnya, you would know that killing anyone in the school would have been the last thing they wanted and he said he regretted it, He accepted his role ( though it was the russians who did the killing) and offered to go on trial.

You act like no-one is allowed to make mistakes. Even Khalid bin Waleed (ra) made mistakes in war - on one occasion he killed innocents and the Prophet (saw) said "i am free from what Khalid did".

So the Prophet (saw) distanced himself from Khalids (ra) actions in that particular event - but not distance himself from Khalid Bin Waleed (ra) himself who was a proven war leader - nor did he slander him.

and I dont care what you say Basaayev acomplished,

I think im beginning to understand your position on this.

You dont care about the hundreds of thousands of Muslim women and children he saved - but you do care about the 300 that died in Russia as thats what you keep refering too.

If you dont care about Muslims - our brothers and sisters who are being slaughtered and raped like animals for the last decade - then i cant say im too interested in what your opinion is.

You must be from one of the Arab countries, they all seem to support Russia too :rollseyes

[Chechen]

OMG brother!?! You are being just awful to say this!:embarrass Such words are embarassing. No life is worth more than another just because one is a russian or not a muslim. thats just awful for you to say:thumbs_do . and I dont care what you say Basaayev acomplished, he still did things in a very bad way. you should never take innocent babies lives hostage for any reason, those poor kids:'( . And you say that you have the right to love your country, but you forget that islam does not permit nationism.

Wait you expect me to be sad when a Russian kafir soldier ,who slaughtered muslim brothers and sisters, dies? I may be wrong and I hope to be wrong but you seem to support the kafir more than your muslim brothers and sisters because here you are defending kafirs who slaughtered thousands of your brothers and sisters. You're sitting here bashing Basayev when you obviously know nothing about him. You're defending people who have killed 300 000 people and complaining about people who killed 300 people even though they weren't the ones that killed those people. And I have all the right to love my country and protect it, there's nothing bad about that. You are the first person from who I ever heard this from. Allah made me a Chechen and a muslim and I thank him for that. If that is wrong then please prove it to me because this is the first time I hear this in my life.

[Sweetness]

Yes you can comment about what you like - my question to you was why slander a brother whom you seem to know nothing about?

Why not just remain silent if your unsure on what is actually happening?

A mistake is a mistake - he offered to die for it, what more do you want from him?

Again if you know about the situation in Chechnya, you would know that killing anyone in the school would have been the last thing they wanted and he said he regretted it, He accepted his role ( though it was the russians who did the killing) and offered to go on trial.

You act like no-one is allowed to make mistakes. Even Khalid bin Waleed (ra) made mistakes in war - on one occasion he killed innocents and the Prophet (saw) said "i am free from what Khalid did".

So the Prophet (saw) distanced himself from Khalids (ra) actions in that particular event - but not distance himself from Khalid Bin Waleed (ra) himself who was a proven war leader - nor did he slander him.



I think im beginning to understand your position on this.

You dont care about the hundreds of thousands of Muslim women and children he saved - but you do care about the 300 that died in Russia as thats what you keep refering too.

If you dont care about Muslims - our brothers and sisters who are being slaughtered and raped like animals for the last decade - then i cant say im too interested in what your opinion is.

You must be from one of the Arab countries, they all seem to support Russia too :rollseyes

I am comenting about something that I do know about thank you very much. Mistakes are ok when it is a mistake,but this was too much, this involved children that should be left out of violent disputes. How dare you say that I dont care about muslim women or children! You should watch what you say, as you are speaking now as a liar about me. I care about all the children everywhere and I dont care if they are muslim or not, I love em all! and any country, all kids are precious and should never be brought into a violent dispute like this and used like this.

You must be from one of the Arab countries, they all seem to support Russia too :rollseyes

This is a very racist thing to say and I think that a mod should speak to you about being a racist in the forum. I too dont think I am very interested in your opinion as well, as I don't like racist opinions that think it is ok to harm some children just because they are different from you.

[Sweetness]

Wait you expect me to be sad when a Russian kafir soldier ,who slaughtered muslim brothers and sisters, dies? I may be wrong and I hope to be wrong but you seem to support the kafir more than your muslim brothers and sisters because here you are defending kafirs who slaughtered thousands of your brothers and sisters. You're sitting here bashing Basayev when you obviously know nothing about him. You're defending people who have killed 300 000 people and complaining about people who killed 300 people even though they weren't the ones that killed those people. And I have all the right to love my country and protect it, there's nothing bad about that. You are the first person from who I ever heard this from. Allah made me a Chechen and a muslim and I thank him for that. If that is wrong then please prove it to me because this is the first time I hear this in my life.

It seemed as if you were saying any russian life was not worth as much as any chechen life, but if you were only speaking of soldiers then I was wrong. You should watch your words just as chechnya should watch his words as you are now lying about me. I mourn the loss of all the innocent kids, chechens AND russians and muslim AND not muslim kids, all of them. You say I am defending kafirs that slaughtered thousands of my brothers and sisters, but they are only kids, how did they slaughter thousands? Thats rediculous. and I am only telling the truth about basayev, you are only defending him because of your nationism that is not even aloud in islam. You say that it is the first time you heard that nationism is not allowed in islam? Are you a recent convert? If so, then you should research this.
You need to know that I do not support kafirs slaughtering the thousands of brothers and sisters, but I absolutely do not support muslims slaughtering kids either. It doesn't make it ok just because muslim kids got killed, all the kids, russians, chechens, muslims and not muslims, should be left alone, and not brought into these violent disputes.

[SilentObserver]

Forget it sister, these guys think it is ok to harm the children that are non-muslim or non-chechen. If you attempt to say anything against this, they immediately equate this with defending the killing of chechens. They can't seem to make a key connection in thought. That connection is that a person might not approve of what happened in Beslan, and also care about children being killed in Chechnya.

[wilberhum]

Forget it sister, these guys think it is ok to harm the children that are non-muslim or non-chechen. If you attempt to say anything against this, they immediately equate this with defending the killing of chechens. They can't seem to make a key connection in thought. That connection is that a person might not approve of what happened in Beslan, and also care about children being killed in Chechnya.

True. Just glorification of child killers. A true hero. :raging:

[Chechnya]

I am comenting about something that I do know about thank you very much. Mistakes are ok when it is a mistake,but this was too much, this involved children that should be left out of violent disputes. How dare you say that I dont care about muslim women or children! You should watch what you say, as you are speaking now as a liar about me. I care about all the children everywhere and I dont care if they are muslim or not, I love em all! and any country, all kids are precious and should never be brought into a violent dispute like this and used like this.

Im only going by what you said - you said you dont care about what Shamil has done so i assumed you were not bothered that he saved hundreds of thousands of women and children from a brutal genocidal war.

Surely even you must see this is a praiseworthy act? How many Muslim Leaders in todays world have accomplished that?

None.

As for mistakes - i dont think you are in any position to judge what is a mistahe and what isnt. Beslan was a mistake since Shamil never realised that the Russians would go ahead and kill the children instead of negotiating an end to the killing of Chcehn children.

He admitted his mistake and offered to die for it - again i have to ask you, what more did you want him to do???

As i said to you even Khalid Bin Waleed (ra) made some very bad mistakes in war and killed innocents - is he too like George Bush now?
The Prophet (saw) distanced himself from the action and not the person - who showed regret at his actions - we should do the same.

Thats rediculous. and I am only telling the truth about basayev, you are only defending him because of your nationism that is not even aloud in islam.

Im NOT Chechen - but since i know much about him i have to defend him - he was a great man.

Nothing to do with nationalism. Shamil wasnt even fighting for nationalist reasons but Islamic reasons.

You say that it is the first time you heard that nationism is not allowed in islam? Are you a recent convert? If so, then you should research this.

Bro Chechen isnt even being nationalist - he supports the ISLAMIC resistance movement and thats what the Rebels are - not nationalists. They established an Islamic state at the end of the last war by 1999

Just before the second war Chechnya was almost fully an Islamic state - one of the very few in existence in the world today - so i think the brother has a right to show love for his Islamic nation and their love for the deen.

but I absolutely do not support muslims slaughtering kids either

I dont think anyone does

[Chechnya]

This is a very racist thing to say and I think that a mod should speak to you about being a racist in the forum. I too dont think I am very interested in your opinion as well, as I don't like racist opinions that think it is ok to harm some children just because they are different from you.

One last thing - i forgot to answer this.

Racist? You either didnt understand what i said or have purposely mis-interepreted my words to make some kind of silly point.

Mid-East countries in general DO support Russia. Lol only a couple of weeks ago our good friend Vladmir Putin went on a quick tour of the Mid-East to meet his good friends.

Whats so racist about stating the obvious?

Arab countries support Russian mass-murderers. Simple.

Arab people of course are a different matter and i know they wouldnt support the genocide of a Muslim nation and that their governments dont represent their views.

Arab brothers have fought in Chechnya, Kashmir and elsewhere - sacrificed their lives - if you would think i would say anything bad about them, then think again.

[Chechen]

It seemed as if you were saying any russian life was not worth as much as any chechen life, but if you were only speaking of soldiers then I was wrong. You should watch your words just as chechnya should watch his words as you are now lying about me. I mourn the loss of all the innocent kids, chechens AND russians and muslim AND not muslim kids, all of them. You say I am defending kafirs that slaughtered thousands of my brothers and sisters, but they are only kids, how did they slaughter thousands? Thats rediculous. and I am only telling the truth about basayev, you are only defending him because of your nationism that is not even aloud in islam. You say that it is the first time you heard that nationism is not allowed in islam? Are you a recent convert? If so, then you should research this.
You need to know that I do not support kafirs slaughtering the thousands of brothers and sisters, but I absolutely do not support muslims slaughtering kids either. It doesn't make it ok just because muslim kids got killed, all the kids, russians, chechens, muslims and not muslims, should be left alone, and not brought into these violent disputes.

Lol you're trying to tell me about someone who you've never seen in real life before whereas my father was friends with him since childhood! Please don't try to tell me that I don't know him and try to teach me about who he really was. I am not only defending him because of nationalism or whatever else you can come up with. I'm defending him because this man is a hero. He died so that me and my family and all Chechens could live when he actually had his own family. He wasn't only defending the Chechen nation but he was also defending Islam. Because the Russians are very famous about going around and wiping out muslims, Chechens aren't the only ones. The Russians have probably killed more muslims than anyone else in this world. You always seem to think that I consider myself superior because I'm Chechen. No that's not true I don't consider myself superior to anyone. We're all equal in front of Allah. I just love my country and my brothers and sisters and don't want to see them being wiped out like animals. And I've never supported children being killed anywhere in the world either. I have seen children getting killed in my country and honestly wouldn't wish that for anyone. I am sorry for the children of Beslan. They were still really young and didn't deserve to die that way. But if Putin is a bloodthirsty monster then that's not our fault. If he enjoys muredering his own people then that's not our problem, it's up to the Russians to get rid of that dictator.

[Muezzin]

This thread has gone off-topic and has degenerated into a fight.

Therefore, I'm closing it.